Smogon University PO Statistics — May 2011

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Rayquaza_ said:
Fighting types eating Tyranitar alive is just one of the many reasons.

It has a horrid defensive typing, it has abysmal speed (even after DD it fails to outspeed many threats), it has no priority moves while being 4x weak to Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave, its other ability is near useless, its Sp. Atk. stat is mediocre by Gen 5 standards and as icing on the cake its strongest attack (Stone Edge) has imperfect accuracy which could cost you the game.

Ask yourself this: why do you use Tyranitar? Because you need a tank? No. Because you need a sweeper? No. Because you need a wallbreaker? Possible, but many other pokemon do that better.
The correct answer is: because you need Sand Stream.
There is simply no reason to use Tyranitar without SS so don't be surprised if it falls to BL.
Heck it could even be UU as long as Evolite Chansey stays there.
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And so what of it? Tyranitar makes excellent use of Sand Stream himself. Careful Tar isn't even 2HKO'd by Latios' Draco Meteor (one of the strongest moves in OU), and can threaten back with Pursuit. Surfs can't OHKO him, heck unSTAB'd ones won't even 2HKO (Lati Specs Surf < Specs DM). He can Dragon Dance (though this is a little hard), he can pick off weakened targets with Pursuit, he can also lay hazards. Stop saying SS is the only thing Tar is good at, 'cause that's bullshit. Hippowdon is a decent physical wall, but he has middling SpD and gets really hurt by things like Surf and Grass Knot, has a shallow movepool, and has nothing close to Tyranitar's utility. Banded Tar and Mixed Tar can tear holes into teams, ScarfTar can outrun a lot of things (+115s, iirc), DDTar can surprise once his checks are gone. Tell me how many sets you can run with Hippowdon, how many teams you can fit him on. Stop fucking overestimating his weaknesses and look at his sheer utility, and you'll see why people use him. No, not just to provide sand.

@Raikaria: TTar without SS is a different monster but really, what I was addressing is between Hippowdon and Tar. As long as he can use Sand Stream he is NOT outclassed by Hippowdon. That's it.
 
tyranitar still has that speed to be a deadly revenge killer. Back when i played PO i peake 8 using an offensive SS teams with scarftar right there for the easy clean up. With the right support(jellicent, gliscor, etc) he can easily fill in quick ko's on starmie, gengar, and latios who are all common. so tyranitars offensiveness is still there. Also unlike hippo it takes advantage of ss by having that stupid good sp.def.
 
Ok cool story bros, but Game Freak made Tyranitar Rock/Dark even though its pre-evos were the shitty Rock/Ground in GSC, made it the only non-Uber to get a weather ability in ADV, made the bs Sp. Def boost in DPPt and skyrocketed its "in-battle BST" and now they made Excadrill to give Tyranitar another reason to live and well it's still used as shit. There's no reason to discuss what would be of Tyranitar without Sand Stream because it won't lose Sand Stream (the suspect voters are bros) and Game Freak will always pull something out of their asses to make Tyranitar forever useful.
 
UltiMario said:
ScarfTar.

It's fast enough at +1 to outspeed most everything relevant.
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This, and even without Scarf he still has Pursuit to pick off weakened Starmie/Latios/Gengar. (As earlier mentioned Starmie's LO Surf doesn't OHKO Tyranitar.)

JSND: I am in no position to explain that, simply because my entry into the BW metagame was in April, and so I don't know too much about the early metagame. Maybe it was that Hippowdon could check Excadrill while Tar couldn't. Or that the appearance of several new Fighters made people initially apprehensive about using Tar. Then people found out that Tar and Reuniclus had awesome synergy, and that Air Balloon could keep Hippowdon from seriously hurting Excadrill. Tar also shits on Latios in ways that Hippowdon can only dream of. And Poison Heal Gliscor came around to compete with Hippowdon as a physical wall. I'm just theorizing here.

Not trying to say Hippowdon is terrible, though, or even completely outclassed. Hippowdon has less weaknesses and can wall physical attacks well. Hippowdon can also recover HP without Rest, and he has a great Attack stat too. It really depends on what your team needs from them aside from sand. Tyranitar has a greater offensive presence, while Hippowdon is superior as a physical wall.
 
Superior at that AND a great special wall

Saying hippo is a bad special wall is stupid beyond belief really

THAT THING SURVIVE MY MODEST 252 CELEBI LEAF FREAKING STORM !!!!!
 
JSND said:
Superior at that AND a great special wall

Saying hippo is a bad special wall is stupid beyond belief really

THAT THING SURVIVE MY MODEST 252 CELEBI LEAF FREAKING STORM !!!!!
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Wat. +0 LO Modest Leaf Storm does 114.3% minimum to 252/252 Careful Hippowdon. Either you had no boosting item or you were at -2.

Edit: I do give he can do it decently, but Tar has better resistances (Fire resist is nice, and Hippo has an Ice weakness that Tar doesn't) and vastly superior bulk for it. A lot of special attackers can use him as setup fodder if he lacks Roar (Celebi, Virizion, Latios, Latias, Thundurus, Tornadus). Hippo has good recovery, though, which is probably the biggest reason you'd use him over Tyranitar.
 
I actually use Tyranitar as a counter for ghosts and psyhic types, which at that point it just becomes my special wall. Can other pokemon do better? Blissey and Chansey for sure, but they can literally do nothing to the opponent outside of spreading around status, which is meh. Specially defensive Jirachi can work well, but because then it has little offensive power, it needs some stall support, which if your not a stall player, is not the way to go. Scizor can work, but it only deals with some special attacks, although the pure priority power it brings to the table, is very useful, still its not the best total special wall. The only pokemon I have played with that comes even close to the same utility that Tyranitar brings to the table, is Snorlax, and even then I am forced to strap on a choice band. Its used for much more then standstorm, that’s why in general its better then Hippo, hippo still has a niche, being able to take physical hits. But generally I don’t see it being used the best as it can, most of the time I just see it used well as Tyranitar’s wingman, making sandstorm a pain to take down.
 
Its tinkerbell

but surviving leaf storm with supposedly bad spD in and on itself really proof its bulky stats
 
It really isn't, actually. Can Hippo take a stray unSTABed special attack? Sure. But to consider it a full blown special wall is just foolish.
 
Well anything getting hit by that kind of move will be dead by that moment normally.

For its practical special walling, its one of the few pokemon that can handle 130 SpA group. Some of them cant easily past hippo even with their(admitedly weak) SE coverage move without specialized EV spread

Example : KG said Hippo CAN counter Gengar IIRC
 
Gengar's strongest STAB attack is also a mere 80 base power. Hippowdon will not be walling Latios, Thundurus, Tornadus, Heatran, Reuniclus, or Volcarona anytime in the near future, and even weaker special attackers such as Infernape or Lucario will easily break through it.

Like I said, it can take a relatively weak hit or two. I sincerely doubt that Hippo can survive Celebi's Leaf Storm without having used Stockpile or Celebi having been at -2 already.
 
Yeah that too is a good point

But saying Hippo sucks tbh is a ridiculous statement to those saying it(i dont mean you say it). It certainly a viable pokemon who have big niche to stand out in the meta. Maybe theres better choice or overlooked.

Having FAR too many viable pokemon in the metagame result in many threatening poke with good niche abandoned by most player
 
Zapdos is UU because he isn't used enough to be in OU.

And why he isn't used enough? Thundurus.

As for the Tyranitar story, DDTar is basically sacrificing one turn of setup to get the boosts of a CB, Scarf AND the ability to switch moves. I don't see how bad is that.
 
It is still outsped by a crapton of things and fails to break through the stuff that checks it anyway. Not worth it IMO, there are better DD users (aka Scrafty).
 
IcyMan28 said:
It is still outsped by a crapton of things and fails to break through the stuff that checks it anyway. Not worth it IMO, there are better DD users (aka Scrafty).
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How so? TTar is faster and has much better attack and defenses than Scrafty. I guess Scrafty has HJK, Drain Punch, and Typing(?) but other that...
 
The only thing Tar will outrun that Scrafty won't is Starmie. Meanwhile, Scrafty has better defensive typing with that bulk and better offensive typing. Just my opinion, though.

EDIT: Scrafty can also actually get past its counters. Gliscor? Ice Punch. Skarmory? It can actually win since Brave Bird doesn't OHKO (at least not the spread I use). It isn't as susceptible to priority (it only really fears Mach Punch, unlike Tar who fears Aqua Jet and Bullet Punch as well). Icing on the cake is either Moxie for continued boosts or Shed Skin to ignore status.
 
IcyMan28 said:
The only thing Tar will outrun that Scrafty won't is Starmie. Meanwhile, Scrafty has better defensive typing with that bulk and better offensive typing. Just my opinion, though.

EDIT: Scrafty can also actually get past its counters. Gliscor? Ice Punch. Skarmory? It can actually win since Brave Bird doesn't OHKO (at least not the spread I use). It isn't as susceptible to priority (it only really fears Mach Punch, unlike Tar who fears Aqua Jet and Bullet Punch as well). Icing on the cake is either Moxie for continued boosts or Shed Skin to ignore status.
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Tyranitar can still bypass some of it's own counters. Gliscor has to worry about Ice Beam, Skarmory is dead through a combo of Fire Blast + Ice Beam and other various oddballs are stopped by a mixed set. I'll give it that most priority is a bitch to this thing though. Then again, Tyranitar brings Sand Stream to the table.

Scrafty on the other hand is a bulky booster. So essentially, pick from them depending on what your team needs the most. And most of their checks still stop them cold, Conkeldurr coming to mind as the first thing stopping both.
 
We were talking about DDTar, of which the standard is DD / Stone Edge / Crunch / Fire Punch @Life Orb/Babiri Berry. It may have changed, but that was the typical 4th gen build for it.

Gliscor walks all over it, Skarmory walks all over it, Hippo still walls it, Pert stops it...etc. I'd also consider Tyranitar a "bulky booster" given its stats + SpD boost. Conkeldurr stops them both, but it is easier for Scrafty to pick off a weakened Conk with +1 HJK and a lesser fighting weakness. Tar has to use Fire Punch and won't survive Mach Punch in most cases (Conk has either Guts or Iron Fist, both of which OHKO).

Generally speaking, Tar has better team utility yes, but as standalone sweepers I'd pick Scrafty any day of the week.
 
IcyMan28 said:
We were talking about DDTar, of which the standard is DD / Stone Edge / Crunch / Fire Punch @Life Orb/Babiri Berry. It may have changed, but that was the typical 4th gen build for it.

Gliscor walks all over it, Skarmory walks all over it, Hippo still walls it, Pert stops it...etc. I'd also consider Tyranitar a "bulky booster" given its stats + SpD boost. Conkeldurr stops them both, but it is easier for Scrafty to pick off a weakened Conk with +1 HJK and a lesser fighting weakness. Tar has to use Fire Punch and won't survive Mach Punch in most cases (Conk has either Guts or Iron Fist, both of which OHKO).

Generally speaking, Tar has better team utility yes, but as standalone sweepers I'd pick Scrafty any day of the week.
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Fair enough. Although DDTar isn't as common as it used to be, mostly opting for a more mixed variant, simply because it works so well against more top usage things like Ferrothorn and Gliscor.
 
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