Metagame [SPOILERS] Scarlet & Violet OU Discussion [BAN LIST POST 626]

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shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
Not sure if I agree with some of these rankings. Seems like you're overhyping a lot of stuff. If Kartana x Z-Move can last in 7, I don't see Palafin being even close to broken. Saying Basculegion is "niche" is kind of crazy. Last Respects makes it the best rain 'mon we have ever been gifted. Rain will become extremely centralizing with Basculegion being the centerpiece. Teams will be forced to stack Sucker Punch & Shadow Sneak priority: Urshifu, Chien-Pao, Kingambit,... The former two will be quickbanned so you will have even less options as time progresses. Even stuff I think is mid like Ceruledge might get decent usage just because priority Shadow Sneak will help check it. I could see Basculegion being banned resulting in the Female form being used afterwards. That's how insane it is.
basculegion is niche pretty much because it mostly exist on rain. i admit that it is quite insane on rain though, but with sun/sand/hail all being viable this generation rain can no longer dominate weather games like it used to. tbh it probably has a niche outside of rain as a scarf cleaner, not sure whether it or houndstone would be better at that role.

palafin's maximum power is stronger than kartana's outside of the one-shot zmove. kartana's attack stat is higher, sure, but it lacked a powerful stab move. palafin packs a mean 120 bp wave crash as well as close combat as coverage. then there's palafin's 100/160/97/106/87/100 statline - a bit slower than kart, the raw atk is weaker, but it has great bulk for an offensive mon. water is and has always been among of the best typings one can have thanks to its neutral coverage, certainly better than grass/steel. not to mention flip turn as pivoting and jet punch as insane priority - literally a 60 bp aqua jet clone. it packs ice punch or even mixed ice beam to hit grass-types with, as well as zen headbutt for toxapex if it wants to. and palafin can successfully run banded sets thanks to its good bulk - kartana can too, but its far inferior bulk makes it rather easier outdamage and force out.

let me put it this way: if you have something with a 100/160/97/106/87/100, water-type, a 120 bp stab attack, as well as a stab 60 bp pivoting move and a stab 60 bp priority, and all the coverage it really needs, would you think its balanced? even without a functional ability?

Dragon Dance, Crunch, Iron Head, and Earthquake isn't going to cut it as a sweeper in Gen 9.
yes, yes it is. you might be missing that, instead of boots or smth, it can run booster energy and get a free +1 to atk for existing. ddance roaring moon is a fucking menace, and those three moves you listed already beat fairies and steels for it. imagine if you can run a choice band while actually being able to switch moves. thats what booster energy does for it, and ddance pumps that power to insane levels.

Brute Bonnet and the new Tauros formes are straight garbage, not sure why you think they'll be OU lol.
brute bonnet is bulky, packs spore, and has good firepower. sucker punch help patch up its low speed, and synthesis for reliable healing. booster energy lets it hit hard or tank hard depends on what it invests in. it will be a decent tank specialized at beating certain things while doing good damage to others, although it is for sure not a top mon.

as far as the tauros formes go, they hit hard and have decent speed while having neat offensive typings. fire forme is a rather unique attacker that can hit hard against pretty much everything (eq breaks pex and skeledirge, wild charge breaks other fat waters that resist cc), and water forme can do the same if sd watershifu gets the hammer. normal is probably not ou, but i cant tell the difference between the tauros forms so thats what it looks like on the graphic lol.

Iron Bundle placement is a straight W. I also like your placement for Iron Hands. Trick Room seems like a meta strat this generation for its ability to flip the script on all the offensive teams / Ditto that will be spammed. Ursaluna is another good TR abuser but you just gotta play smart with it since it potentially has to burn a TR turn to activate Flame Orb.
please be balanced cyborg delibird *prays*

ursaluna ngl can just be a guts slugger outside of tr. it does have the power to let it work, and unlike other slow breakers we had in the past like crawdawnt it has some pretty beefy bulk.
 

G-Luke

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Something I slapped together, so I might have underrated or overrated some threats. I am not particularly familiar with all of the nuances of these Pokémon's Movepool though, and no BLs after UU cuz that's hard but that barely matters here in this thread, so if one has any ideas on how likely these placements seem lemmie know.

Some specific talking points I am interested in

• With all that's said and done, what will most likely be OU's primiere bulky Water type?
• Do people think the Energy Booster item is ultimately banworthy?
• Last Respects on Basculegion. How far into competitive relevancy will that carry it, especially considering what is perhaps the fiercest Ghost type competition it probably has ever faced.
• Will Palafin be banworthy? Will it's stats and 120 BP STAB make up for no secondary typing, no reliable way to touch bulky Waters or it's effective lack of ability? How well will it perform in comparison to both new and old Water type wallbreakers we can expect both pre and post Home?
 

shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
Freeze dry+H pump spam goes brrrrrr
i know...but that 136 speed tier is so good around here, especially with chien-pao still around but even without. it might be what breaks it tho. specs perfect coverage+pivoting+124 spa+136 speed is admittedly nuts. such a cool mon tho.
 
• Will Palafin be banworthy? Will it's stats and 120 BP STAB make up for no secondary typing, no reliable way to touch bulky Waters or it's effective lack of ability? How well will it perform in comparison to both new and old Water type wallbreakers we can expect both pre and post Home?
No comment on anything else, but Palafin definitely won't be banned with no way of touching bulky waters. Gamefreak finally made a Pokemon that isn't straight up garbage with high BST that has an ability with downsides though. Slaking, Archeops, Regigigas, and Wishiwashi are crying tears of joy right now.
 

Weirdhamster

Banned deucer.
New pseudo looks insane. Ice+Dragon hits absolutely everything but Shedinja with EQ coverage, and it has decent bulk to let it set up, plus it can run ice body on snow teams for better longevity to complement its +1 defense buff, but why would you when its default ability makes its 145 (!!!) attack uncuttable by burn and a terrifying prospect for throwing around fire type moves with it potentially switching in. With access to ddance, ice shard, icicle crash, outrage, earthquake, and iron head, it's wild to me how threatening it looks.
Scarf lando, which outspeeds it at +1, can't ohko with stone edge and is ohko'd itself by a +1 ice shard, same with scarf chomp. Toxapex gets 2hko'd by unboosted eq after rocks, Slowbro is 2hko'd by +1 outrage, Corviknight has an almost 30% chance to be 2hko'd after rocks (98% if it's adamant!) by +1 icicle crash, the list just goes on and on. That's not even taking into account its sig move, which while coming with heavy drawbacks, could make Baxcalibur a nightmare if it means a high base power ice STAB. Just... christ.
Honestly, that really just sounds like a physical kyurem. Considering that stall is being nerfed in sv, i could see this thing even using choice band to dish out insane damage switching in or just choice scarf as a fast wall breaker and revenge killer. I’m no expert at ou but if you look at the similarities it has with kyurem in ss ou, I can really see it being banned quite quickly. sure, there will be things such as toxapexes still around, but with regenerator only activating once and recover having 8 max pp, this thing could dish out earthquakes with 16pp and pp stall it by coming in and out or just spamming earthquake.

Corviknight will probably be the most consistent defensive answer unless the pseudo gets coverage for that due to pressure and not being weak to the moves that you listed. Though on a snow (is it called that now?) teams giving ice body and +1 def, this thing could probably get 2 dragon dances off against a corv surviving the first body press due to the +1 def. Iron defense could probably be your best chance with a corv against the new pseudo though if you’re going up against ddance.

Otherwise, when things like buzzwole come in the game with scarf and stuff, unless it isn’t banned yet it will probably drop quite a bit then. But in the end, I guess we’ll just need to wait and see what happens with it, will be very interesting to see how it uses the terastal phenomenon too, probably transforming into tera ice or ground.
 
View attachment 465087

Something I slapped together, so I might have underrated or overrated some threats. I am not particularly familiar with all of the nuances of these Pokémon's Movepool though, and no BLs after UU cuz that's hard but that barely matters here in this thread, so if one has any ideas on how likely these placements seem lemmie know.

Some specific talking points I am interested in

• With all that's said and done, what will most likely be OU's primiere bulky Water type?
• Do people think the Energy Booster item is ultimately banworthy?
• Last Respects on Basculegion. How far into competitive relevancy will that carry it, especially considering what is perhaps the fiercest Ghost type competition it probably has ever faced.
• Will Palafin be banworthy? Will it's stats and 120 BP STAB make up for no secondary typing, no reliable way to touch bulky Waters or it's effective lack of ability? How well will it perform in comparison to both new and old Water type wallbreakers we can expect both pre and post Home?
Energy booster is definitely not banworthy since it's a consumable/single use,if anything is getting banned related to paradox mons it's either only a select few paradox mons like roaring moon or sun and/or electric terrain

Palafin has a high chance of getting banned. Literally all you need to do is switch palafin out once and you have a base 160 attack flip turning,jet punching priority monster for the rest of the battle.
 
Now changing into a 180, i wanna talk about Lando T, he still has SR but
No toxic?
No Knock Off?
No defog?
No Bitches?
I honestly think Lando is no longer the "slap this and all your problems are gone" because he has no support tools anymore
with that said, since Lando is no longer cool, that means is no longer cool to hate him, so my point is, he needs new sets, i can see him with the suicide Lead set, Choice Scarf or maybe even Choice Band because 145 attack its 145 attack
I dont think its that bad. It still has Eq, sr and u-turn and defensive sets could run taunt to prevent healing or explosion if there is no other way of getting rid of a mon.
Offensive sets now have the option fo having a reliable flying stab in tera flying w bu and sd.


Im hyped for amoongus
.With ferrothorn gone and venusaur not in the game either, it can freely spam spore.
 
I dont think its that bad. It still has Eq, sr and u-turn and defensive sets could run taunt to prevent healing or explosion if there is no other way of getting rid of a mon.
Offensive sets now have the option fo having a reliable flying stab in tera flying w bu and sd.


Im hyped for amoongus
.With ferrothorn gone and venusaur not in the game either, it can freely pam spore.
Goldengo though... Also, Pincurchin might be common due to some Paradox Mons. I do agree that he is better now and will make Breloom's life miserable.
 
IDK the mechanics behind it, but Rage Fist might be a busted attack since it can also get up to 300 BP and the charge stays even after Annihilape switches out. So if Annihilape switches into U-Turn or something, it'll charge up the attack and keep that charge even if it switches out. IDK if it resets after each use though, so we'll see, but its a really good attack regardless. EDIT: Disregard this, I am wrong about how this move works.

I think Annihilape is still pretty good though in its own right. In someways, its stat spread might be better than Marshadows since it has pretty solid Bulk, in addition to packing solid speed and attack. Its got Defiant too, which is good at detering some mons like Lando-T. Raging Fist might push it to the next level though due to how strong it is.

Baxcalibur doesn't actually seem all that different from Kyurem-Black to me. Its actually better in a few ways since it has Earthquake and more reliable Dragon and Ice STAB than Kyurem did. Thermal Exchange is also an incredible ability, though I think it would have been more useful if the meta's water-types were using Scald like in SwSh. I don't think it'll be overpowered, but a standard DD set seems like it'd be incredibly strong once most of the other broken stuff is removed. It'll pair great with either Slowking or Slowking-G too since they can setup Snow with Chilly Reception, giving it more setup opportunities. One downside to Baxcalibur compared to Kyurem though is that it doesn't have Roost, so its longevity will be a fair bit worse. I think Baxcalibur could also run a strong CB set since its got Ice Shard, letting it revenge kill stuff like Dragapult, Garchomp, etc. in a pinch.

Gallade is massively buffed now. Volt-Ikazuchi mentioned in the Battle mechanics thread that Sharpness boost the power of cutting moves by 50%. For Gallade, this means that its Sacred Sword will now be stronger than Close Combat while also not having any drawbacks and it'll give it an actually good Psychic STAB move in Psycho Cut. Night Slash or Shadow Claw might also be better than Knock Off now since they are always stronger, though Knock Off will still have its uses for obvious reasons.
 
Chilling Water still sucks imo Magcargo. It'll probably use it but not because it's good, just as a necessity to help vs things like Chien-Pao. A drop vs permanent status is a big difference. It also can't make as much progress without Knock Off. Toxapex will not be "unviable" but it surely won't be top-tier either. Keeping Toxic is still great though. You can still 1v1 some big threats with that + Haze. Eject Button will probably be the most popular set.

Also after giving it some thought I have decided what will be the most broken Pokemon in order:

1. Flutter Mane

Shadow Ball x Moonblast is insane from these stats. Psyshock coverage lets you force your way through would-be answers such as Clodsire, SpDef Toxapex, and Blissey. Mystical Fire coverage is great too. The most common set will most likely be Calm Mind x Energy Booster. Choice Specs sets will be just as good, especially with Sun support to boost Speed. AV Magearna w/ Iron Head is a great check but it's sadly Home-exclusive so you won't have it right away. Heatran with Heavy Slam + Protect is also a great check but once again it is not available until Home drops. Garganacl is one of the few answers we do have as with max SpDef you can tank even 2 Choice Specs Moonblasts & OHKO back with Heavy Slam. Priority and Ditto will be your main countermeasures to this thing though. 55 / 55 HP x Defense means it will drop to almost anything physical. Hippowdon's Earthquake does 80% min for example. Still doesn't change the fact I give this Pokemon 1 week max.

2. Cyclizar

A controversial pick but I find the move Shed Tail to be utter bullshit. The only reason this move is balanced is because it forces you to halve your health, but Regenerator solves this issue. It's basically a free-switch minimum to one of the many broken attackers we got this generation. The Speed is great and it can tech utility moves such as Rapid Spin for support. I could see a utility Choice Scarf set being very popular with Shed Tail, Rapid Spin, and Draco Meteor to check set-up sweepers such as Roaring Moon and Baxcalibur. I think they will ban this Pokemon instead of Shed Tail itself because Orthworm is not exactly the best abuser. Infiltrator Choice Specs Dragapult will still be great early-meta due to its godly speed tier and ability to check Shed Tail strats.

3. Chien-Pao

I don't think this needs any explanation. We have seen how Weavile only needs Dark / Ice stabs to shit on the whole tier and he didn't even have an ability! Not only is Chien-Pao faster but he also has a broken ability in Sword of Ruin which drops your Defense upon switch-in. It does not get Knock Off but Crunch and Ice Spinner will be good enough. Sacred Sword is also phenomenal coverage that they did not need to give this Pokemon. Did I mention that he doesn't get one but two stab priority moves? Ice Shard AND Sucker Punch is insane. It also has Swords Dance and Psychic Fangs to adapt to the metagame if stuff like Toxapex and Urshifu-RS become popular to check it. Avalugg is pretty much the only answer to this Pokemon defensively.

4. Urshifu-SS

Swords Dance is an insane buff and will break this thing. I don't think much needs to be explained but basically +2 Sucker Punch will fry the entire meta and +2 Wicked Blow / Close Combat will force its way through any Pokemon defensively since Clefable got axe'd. I could see both Hydreigon and Iron Jugulis being popular for their ability to check it reliably. Zamazenta & Zamazenta-C will also be great checks as I can see council dropping them due to their significant nerfs this generation.

This is all after Tera by the way. Tera is definitely first to go lol.
I’m pretty sure orthworm is a better abuser of shed tail honestly. Cyclizar is so fast that the sub will be broken and it’ll ultimately function similarly to a slow pivot. There will be hyper offense teams where Orthworm tanks a hit and shed tails into an insane set up sweeper to win the game. That sort of play is impossible for cyclizar.
 
I’m pretty sure orthworm is a better abuser of shed tail honestly. Cyclizar is so fast that the sub will be broken and it’ll ultimately function similarly to a slow pivot. There will be hyper offense teams where Orthworm tanks a hit and shed tails into an insane set up sweeper to win the game. That sort of play is impossible for cyclizar.
Orthworm can only use the Move once usually, Cyclizar can use it several times due to Regenerator. Granted, his Subs are weaker, but it will depend on the typing of the switch-in, which might be immune to the move aimed at Cyclizar.
 
2. Cyclizar

A controversial pick but I find the move Shed Tail to be utter bullshit. The only reason this move is balanced is because it forces you to halve your health, but Regenerator solves this issue. It's basically a free-switch minimum to one of the many broken attackers we got this generation. The Speed is great and it can tech utility moves such as Rapid Spin for support. I could see a utility Choice Scarf set being very popular with Shed Tail, Rapid Spin, and Draco Meteor to check set-up sweepers such as Roaring Moon and Baxcalibur. I think they will ban this Pokemon instead of Shed Tail itself because Orthworm is not exactly the best abuser. Infiltrator Choice Specs Dragapult will still be great early-meta due to its godly speed tier and ability to check Shed Tail strats.
I don't think bike lizard will be broken, keep in mind hazards are easier than ever not only to put them on with Kleavor, Samurott-H and Glimmora, but also to maintain them, thanks to Gholdengo. You won't like to shuffle your pokemon around when all of the battlefield is filled with shit
 
Orthworm can only use the Move once usually, Cyclizar can use it several times due to Regenerator. Granted, his Subs are weaker, but it will depend on the typing of the switch-in, which might be immune to the move aimed at Cyclizar.
Yeah I guess cyclizar will be the far more splashable abuser but that sort of usage of shed tail doesn’t sound any more broken to me than like teleport slowbro. It will not be able to enable game winning plays as easily as orthworm’s slow shed tail can, but I don’t see orthworm fitting anywhere except specifically on hyper offense.
 
No comment on anything else, but Palafin definitely won't be banned with no way of touching bulky waters. Gamefreak finally made a Pokemon that isn't straight up garbage with high BST that has an ability with downsides though. Slaking, Archeops, Regigigas, and Wishiwashi are crying tears of joy right now.
Tera blast electric says hello :totodiLUL:

But hey, even if you dont want to run tera blast then you just click flip turn and bring out a mon that can deal with those bulky waters. Palafin also has close combat and outrage if you do want to try and punish those switch ins with him tho

However the set that i think will push Palafin over board is choice band, mainly because of jet punch. 60 bp prio stab is NOT OKAY and it does so much more damage than a choice band ADAPTABILITY Crawdaunt's aqua jet and its not even close, Palafin doesnt even have an ability. CB jet punch OHKOs many frail mons and is gonna cleanly 2HKO many others.
 
Yeah I guess cyclizar will be the far more splashable abuser but that sort of usage of shed tail doesn’t sound any more broken to me than like teleport slowbro. It will not be able to enable game winning plays as easily as orthworm’s slow shed tail can, but I don’t see orthworm fitting anywhere except specifically on hyper offense.
I personally don,t even think its broken, but it might be. Baton Pass was thought to be broken (I don,t agree with it, but I am minority here) and this is pretty similar, except only Sub its passed. If the Sub is broken the same turn its passed, its fine. However, if the Sub abusser comes for free, its another story. Take into account, Cyclizar gets Knock Off and Rapid Spin, so some opponents will actually want to switch out of it to either prevent losing the item or to prevent him for removing hazards.
 
Arboliva in detail:

TYPE: Grass/Normal
-Your Grass advantages and disadvantages adding a weakness to Fighting and an inmunity to Ghost

STATS: 78/69/90/125/109/39
-Decent bulk. Good defense, excellent special defense
-Very good special attack
-Con is its awful speed

ABILITY: Seed Sower/Seed Sower/Harvest
-Seed Sower is a new ability. If Arboliva is attacked, it auto-sets Grassy Terrain. This, combined with its decent bulk, can improve its survivability

MOVES:
-Grass STAB: Energy Ball/Giga Drain. It can learn by level Terrain Pulse, which combined with Seed sower, makes very feasible to have a 100 power attack with no drawbacks. Leaf Storm is a thing too
-Normal STAB: learns Hyper Voice by TM
-Other moves: learns Earth Power and Dazzling Gleam which give it coverage against potential Fire or Fighting types who threaten it. Also learns Polen Puff. It has access to Weather Ball too, but in its case I don't see it getting a lot of use
-Utility: Has access to Leech Seed by level, Reflect, Light Screen, Protect and Substitute by TM, and Synthesis and Strength Sap by egg move. It also learns Memento by egg move
-I don't see it getting use of it in competitive, but it can learn Mirror Coat by level

I guess a moveset could be:
-Energy Ball/Terrain Pulse
-Earth Power/Hyper Voice
-Leech Seed
-Strength Sap
 
• With all that's said and done, what will most likely be OU's primiere bulky Water type?
...the same ones we have now minus the ones not in SV?

• Do people think the Energy Booster item is ultimately banworthy?
I think that it will be banned at first in a futile attempt to save roaring moon, iron valiant, and iron bundle. Once these 3 get ban without the item it'll likely be tested down. My honest opinion is that it isn't banworthy though.

• Last Respects on Basculegion. How far into competitive relevancy will that carry it, especially considering what is perhaps the fiercest Ghost type competition it probably has ever faced.
It will be banned from OU and be viable in Ubers.

• Will Palafin be banworthy? Will it's stats and 120 BP STAB make up for no secondary typing, no reliable way to touch bulky Waters or it's effective lack of ability? How well will it perform in comparison to both new and old Water type wallbreakers we can expect both pre and post Home?
Pre-transformation is really telegraphed. Its stats are amazing but that is to make up for its lack of ability and no secondary STAB. It doesn't like bulky waters but I imagine that Palafin will perform better than other water type wallbreakers not named Iron Bundle due to Jet Punch. Whether it's banworthy or not may likely depend on how much the reduced healing move pp is felt by OU. This response on Palafin is assuming that Tera gets banned though.
 

shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
Arboliva in detail:

TYPE: Grass/Normal
-Your Grass advantages and disadvantages adding a weakness to Fighting and an inmunity to Ghost

STATS: 78/69/90/125/109/39
-Decent bulk. Good defense, excellent special defense
-Very good special attack
-Con is its awful speed

ABILITY: Seed Sower/Seed Sower/Harvest
-Seed Sower is a new ability. If Arboliva is attacked, it auto-sets Grassy Terrain. This, combined with its decent bulk, can improve its survivability

MOVES:
-Grass STAB: Energy Ball/Giga Drain. It can learn by level Terrain Pulse, which combined with Seed sower, makes very feasible to have a 100 power attack with no drawbacks.
-Normal STAB: learns Hyper Voice by TM
-Other moves: learns Earth Power and Dazzling Gleam which give it coverage against potential Fire or Fighting types who threaten it. Also learns Polen Puff. It has access to Weather Ball too, but in its case I don't see it getting a lot of use
-Utility: Has access to Leech Seed by level, Reflect, Light Screen, Protect and Substitute by TM, and Synthesis and Strength Sap by egg move.
-I don't see it getting use of it in competitive, but it can learn Mirror Coat by level.

I guess a moveset could be:
-Energy Ball/Terrain Pulse
-Earth Power/Hyper Voice
-Leech Seed
-Strength Sap
imo energy ball/giga drain is always the play over terrain pulse. you get a grass stab without being forced to be hit, or if your terrain wears off/gets replaced. probably giga drain is the better one since it is after all a grass-type fatmon that want to take some hits.
 
I was thinking about defensive terastal, and I came up with a silly scenario. Say you're using your trusty Clodsire to set hazards up in this hazard heavy metagame, and a pesky Chien-Pao appears to stop you. If you stick around to get rocks up, or even worse, switch in to this monster, you'll be in big trouble, and odds are you're not getting your rocks.

252+ Atk Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 426-504 (91.8 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

However, there is a solution! One your opponent, in all their foolishness, will not see coming. All you need to do is stick a candle in the top of your chocolate eclair, and voila! Your clueless opponent will be unable to stop you from setting your devious trap for them.

252+ Atk Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera-Fire Clodsire: 106-126 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

No need to thank me for saving OU this generation, it's all in a days work. And Chien-Pao, see you in PU buddy. There's no way around this unsto-

+2 252+ Atk Tera-Dark Chien-Pao Night Slash vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera-Fire Clodsire: 466-550 (100.4 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ah. Well... at least you'd get rocks up!

(This was a gag post, I don't think Sword of Ruin is a straight -1, but the point is that terastal is very silly and it makes me laugh. Thank you!)
 
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