Metagame [SPOILERS] Scarlet & Violet OU Discussion [BAN LIST POST 626]

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What are your opinions on Tatsugiri ?

Code:
Tatsugiri - 68/50/60/120/95/82 (Total: 475) - Dragon/Water - Commander/Commander/Storm Drain
Learned Moves:
    Water Gun @ Lv. 1
    Splash @ Lv. 1
    Harden @ Lv. 6
    Helping Hand @ Lv. 12
    Water Pulse @ Lv. 17
    Soak @ Lv. 23
    Taunt @ Lv. 28
    Memento @ Lv. 34
    Muddy Water @ Lv. 39
    Nasty Plot @ Lv. 43
    Mirror Coat @ Lv. 47
    Dragon Pulse @ Lv. 52
Egg Moves:
    Counter, Baton Pass, Rapid Spin
TM Moves:
    Take Down, Hydro Pump, Surf, Hyper Beam, Rest, Substitute, Protect, Icy Wind, Outrage, Endure, Sleep Talk, Baton Pass, Rain Dance, Facade, Taunt, Helping Hand, Dragon Dance, Water Pulse, Dragon Pulse, Giga Impact, Nasty Plot, Draco Meteor, Tera Blast, Chilling Water

I don't think it's OU material but i like it. A scarf set could be fun. something with DM, H-pump, terablast, d-pulse/surf/r-spin is all i can see given the poor movepool but if tera gets to stay it could really help its coverage
 
Can someone do damage calcs for 252 Atk Ev meowscarada with choice band, grass tera and flower trick vs a defensive toxapex?
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 164-194 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
while it won't be available till home, I want to talk about a mon that I think deserves to be looked at some more; sneasler

stats: 80/130/60/40/80/120
abilities: pressure, unburden, poison touch
notable moves: poison jab, taunt, u-turn, close combat, gunk shot, toxic spikes, swords dance

so right away we have a very strong ability in unburden that will absolutely give it a niche in ou at worst, given hawlucha makes due with worse speed and worse attack, here's a basic unburden set:
sneasler @ grassy seed/some item to trigger unburden
ability: unburden
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant nature
- swords dance
- poison jab/gunk shot
- close combat
- taunt/sub/coverage

this set runs enough speed to outrun basculeigon in rain, with the rest put into hp and attack for maximum bulk and damage, it's walled by pex and the like, but it's main job is to bully offence, this on its own would be good, but I want to highlight another one of sneaslers abilities, Poison touch, the notable thing here being that sneasler is the only pokemon to have both poison touch and U-turn, this lets it pivot while also passively spreading poison, leading to it being incredibly annoying to switch into:


Sneasler @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Taunt/coverage/toxic spikes/swords dance
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
poison jab is run over gunk shot to maximize poison chance, the goal of this set is to stick around throughout a game spreading poison and wearing down various pokemon while still remaining a dangerous offensive threat in its own right, pex is still a switchin, but one that can give free momentum with a u-turn that's both threatening and maintains tempo for offensively inclined teammates.

I think this mon has a lot of potential, so let me ask you: What do you think of sneasler? do you think it will have Viability in OU? Do you think poison touch sets will take off or do you think it will stick to unburden sets?
thank you for reading and goodbye!
 
while it won't be available till home, I want to talk about a mon that I think deserves to be looked at some more; sneasler

stats: 80/130/60/40/80/120
abilities: pressure, unburden, poison touch
notable moves: poison jab, taunt, u-turn, close combat, gunk shot, toxic spikes, swords dance

so right away we have a very strong ability in unburden that will absolutely give it a niche in ou at worst, given hawlucha makes due with worse speed and worse attack, here's a basic unburden set:
sneasler @ grassy seed/some item to trigger unburden
ability: unburden
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant nature
- swords dance
- poison jab/gunk shot
- close combat
- taunt/sub/coverage

this set runs enough speed to outrun basculeigon in rain, with the rest put into hp and attack for maximum bulk and damage, it's walled by pex and the like, but it's main job is to bully offence, this on its own would be good, but I want to highlight another one of sneaslers abilities, Poison touch, the notable thing here being that sneasler is the only pokemon to have both poison touch and U-turn, this lets it pivot while also passively spreading poison, leading to it being incredibly annoying to switch into:


Sneasler @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Taunt/coverage/toxic spikes/swords dance
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
poison jab is run over gunk shot to maximize poison chance, the goal of this set is to stick around throughout a game spreading poison and wearing down various pokemon while still remaining a dangerous offensive threat in its own right, pex is still a switchin, but one that can give free momentum with a u-turn that's both threatening and maintains tempo for offensively inclined teammates.

I think this mon has a lot of potential, so let me ask you: What do you think of sneasler? do you think it will have Viability in OU? Do you think poison touch sets will take off or do you think it will stick to unburden sets?
thank you for reading and goodbye!
I like Dire Claws for the poison STAB. With the BP buff, a enhanced crit rate, and multiple status conditions, the move is extremely versatile. Stacking that with poison touch and a reasonable support movepool makes me think Sneasler will have a decent niche once it drops
 
On top of this, it is likely we will skip the formality and have the ability Moody on our banlist for whenever a Pokemon with the ability happens to be usable (slipping my mind as to if this’ll be immediately applicable).

As I previously mentioned, a formal banlist will be posted when the SV OU subforum goes up. I will begin the drafting process of this behind closed doors earlier this week so it is ready for Friday.
Hey finch, i wanna ask you, what is you general view of the metagame, and what do you think would be banworthy?
 

1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
Any pokemon that wasnt cut that your gonna 100% try regardless of viability?
For me, im going with Chesnaugh
Chesnaught @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Synthesis
- Wood Hammer
- Drain Punch
- Spikes
It was my first starter so he has a soft spot in my heart, even tho is worse breloom offensevly, deffensevly at least has spikes, better deffense, and with wood hammer, outdamages poison heal breloom, he is probably ending in UU as a phisical wall but yeah
 
while it won't be available till home, I want to talk about a mon that I think deserves to be looked at some more; sneasler

stats: 80/130/60/40/80/120
abilities: pressure, unburden, poison touch
notable moves: poison jab, taunt, u-turn, close combat, gunk shot, toxic spikes, swords dance

so right away we have a very strong ability in unburden that will absolutely give it a niche in ou at worst, given hawlucha makes due with worse speed and worse attack, here's a basic unburden set:
sneasler @ grassy seed/some item to trigger unburden
ability: unburden
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant nature
- swords dance
- poison jab/gunk shot
- close combat
- taunt/sub/coverage

this set runs enough speed to outrun basculeigon in rain, with the rest put into hp and attack for maximum bulk and damage, it's walled by pex and the like, but it's main job is to bully offence, this on its own would be good, but I want to highlight another one of sneaslers abilities, Poison touch, the notable thing here being that sneasler is the only pokemon to have both poison touch and U-turn, this lets it pivot while also passively spreading poison, leading to it being incredibly annoying to switch into:


Sneasler @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Taunt/coverage/toxic spikes/swords dance
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
poison jab is run over gunk shot to maximize poison chance, the goal of this set is to stick around throughout a game spreading poison and wearing down various pokemon while still remaining a dangerous offensive threat in its own right, pex is still a switchin, but one that can give free momentum with a u-turn that's both threatening and maintains tempo for offensively inclined teammates.

I think this mon has a lot of potential, so let me ask you: What do you think of sneasler? do you think it will have Viability in OU? Do you think poison touch sets will take off or do you think it will stick to unburden sets?
thank you for reading and goodbye!
I think we'll see more poison touch than unberden, i don't see it benefiting from a one time use item (maybe some berry but something adding to its offense seems better to me). Poison touch coupled with dire hit (poison 80 bp can spread poison, paralysis or sleep, so a direct upgrade to poison jab) could (kinda) fill the void left by the (almost) disapearance of toxic
 

pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor
On top of this, it is likely we will skip the formality and have the ability Moody on our banlist for whenever a Pokemon with the ability happens to be usable (slipping my mind as to if this’ll be immediately applicable).

As I previously mentioned, a formal banlist will be posted when the SV OU subforum goes up. I will begin the drafting process of this behind closed doors earlier this week so it is ready for Friday.
Are there any plans to potentially retest these later in the gen, or nah?
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
Hey finch, i wanna ask you, what is you general view of the metagame, and what do you think would be banworthy?
I tend to avoid dabbling into hypotheticals whenever possible. I can see Tera, the revival move, and a few other Pokemon/concepts testing the balance of the early metagame.

However, making any “absolute” statements is an optics disaster from my position. I refuse to promise anything before we see an actual metagame and I refuse to base a very important series of tiering opinions off of theory as opposed to reality, so for now I will keep any “definite” statements beyond clear-cut things (like the ability bans I mentioned) to a minimum.

Of course, I am happy to be transparent and answer any other questions people may have — please feel free to quote this or tag me here at any point prior to release and I’ll try to respond when possible.
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
Are there any plans to potentially retest these later in the gen, or nah?
Unlikely given that they have been banworthy for the last five generations now in some capacity. If there is a novel variable to the equation, we will happily reinvestigate and act in accordance with what’s best for our metagame and playerbase. That does not seem to be the case given the information provided thus far, however, so it likely sticks for at least the start of the generation and through the preliminary phases.
 
while it won't be available till home, I want to talk about a mon that I think deserves to be looked at some more; sneasler

stats: 80/130/60/40/80/120
abilities: pressure, unburden, poison touch
notable moves: poison jab, taunt, u-turn, close combat, gunk shot, toxic spikes, swords dance

so right away we have a very strong ability in unburden that will absolutely give it a niche in ou at worst, given hawlucha makes due with worse speed and worse attack, here's a basic unburden set:
sneasler @ grassy seed/some item to trigger unburden
ability: unburden
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant nature
- swords dance
- poison jab/gunk shot
- close combat
- taunt/sub/coverage

this set runs enough speed to outrun basculeigon in rain, with the rest put into hp and attack for maximum bulk and damage, it's walled by pex and the like, but it's main job is to bully offence, this on its own would be good, but I want to highlight another one of sneaslers abilities, Poison touch, the notable thing here being that sneasler is the only pokemon to have both poison touch and U-turn, this lets it pivot while also passively spreading poison, leading to it being incredibly annoying to switch into:


Sneasler @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Taunt/coverage/toxic spikes/swords dance
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
poison jab is run over gunk shot to maximize poison chance, the goal of this set is to stick around throughout a game spreading poison and wearing down various pokemon while still remaining a dangerous offensive threat in its own right, pex is still a switchin, but one that can give free momentum with a u-turn that's both threatening and maintains tempo for offensively inclined teammates.

I think this mon has a lot of potential, so let me ask you: What do you think of sneasler? do you think it will have Viability in OU? Do you think poison touch sets will take off or do you think it will stick to unburden sets?
thank you for reading and goodbye!
Dire Claws is way better than Poison Jab in exchange for only 5 BP. this is what will make sneasler extremely difficult to switch in on... no one really wants to be poisoned and god forbid you get para'd or slept if you're unlucky.
 
I tend to avoid dabbling into hypotheticals whenever possible. I can see Tera, the revival move, and a few other Pokemon/concepts testing the balance of the early metagame.

However, making any “absolute” statements is an optics disaster from my position. I refuse to promise anything before we see an actual metagame and I refuse to base a very important series of tiering opinions off of theory as opposed to reality, so for now I will keep any “definite” statements beyond clear-cut things (like the ability bans I mentioned) to a minimum.

Of course, I am happy to be transparent and answer any other questions people may have — please feel free to quote this or tag me here at any point prior to release and I’ll try to respond when possible.
oh I c, and what pokemon you would like to use this generation (from 9 the nth gen) in OU? For example, i would love to use gholdengo
 

TCTphantom

formerly MX42
One thing I am personally excited to test is whether Kleavor and Hisuian Samurott contribute meaningfully to the hazard game. Their signature moves do set up a layer of hazards, and having an offensive move that does that sounds incredible tempo wise. It also helps that with Sharpness, Ceaseless Edge and Stone Axe are not bad moves in and of themselves.

I do not know if both will stick around in OU with how fast this gen seems to be in particular, but laying down a layer of spikes while dealing damage sounds at least fun.
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
oh I c, and what pokemon you would like to use this generation (from 9 the nth gen) in OU? For example, i would love to use gholdengo
Cyclizar has caught my eye from the instant I heard of it, but the prospect of the shake ups with the Bisharp line (evolution + eviolite Bisharp!?) intrigue me as well.

Stylistically I’m very curious how archetypes will develop with some key cogs no longer in existence — I.e: balance with limited recovery
 
Cyclizar has caught my eye from the instant I heard of it, but the prospect of the shake ups with the Bisharp line (evolution + eviolite Bisharp!?) intrigue me as well.

Stylistically I’m very curious how archetypes will develop with some key cogs no longer in existence — I.e: balance with limited recovery

Oh so you liked the regenerator pivot and the supreme overlord (Literally the kingambits ability is supreme overlord lmao) Idk how it actually works, but is said that raises attack by anyfainted ally, i really lovedits design

1668442918235.png

1668442959424.png


(it has a big ass cloud type sword as a head, damm O.o)


What can i say about cyclizar, i love his design and i hope is balanced enought to be in the metagame.

Now pray to our supreme overlord :pray:
 
Dire Claws is way better than Poison Jab in exchange for only 5 BP. this is what will make sneasler extremely difficult to switch in on... no one really wants to be poisoned and god forbid you get para'd or slept if you're unlucky.
I actually dissagree, I don't see dire claw as a straight upgrade, I think its probably a bit better in some scenario's but also getting a para on a mon you needed to poison sounds like it could be unfortunate, I think it will still be better for spreading status for a hex cleaner, but in a vacuum I think that the consistency of always getting poison will be just as valuable, if not more valuable, than the potential of getting a para that can screw you over. (for example, I'd much rather get a poison on a lando or slowbro than I would paralysis)

side note, does anybody know how sleep clause works with relic song? cause it likely works the same way with dire claw sleep
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I actually dissagree, I don't see dire claw as a straight upgrade, I think its probably a bit better in some scenario's but also getting a para on a mon you needed to poison sounds like it could be unfortunate, I think it will still be better for spreading status for a hex cleaner, but in a vacuum I think that the consistency of always getting poison will be just as valuable, if not more valuable, than the potential of getting a para that can screw you over. (for example, I'd much rather get a poison on a lando or slowbro than I would paralysis)

side note, does anybody know how sleep clause works with relic song? cause it likely works the same way with dire claw sleep
Trade off is immensely worth it for being able to punish things like RH Toxapex that will seek to hardwall and punish Sneaseler, or honestly just most bulky Poison types in general, we got a few.
 
Forgive me if this has already been answered. Does the sub that Cyclizar creates with Shed tail have 50% of its HP? Or is it a standard 25% HP sub with an additional 25% HP cost for switching out?
 
Also on cartridge Dire Claw might be extremely risky with Sleep Clause (although not many are playing on cartridge, especially since the timer shenanigans)
 
Let's talk about a Pokemon that's flown a bit under the radar, Garganacl.
Code:
Garganacl - 100/100/130/45/90/35 (Total: 500) - Rock/Rock - Purifying Salt/Sturdy/Clear Body
The longer you look at this mon, the better it looks. 100 Attack is nothing to get excited over, but 100/130/90 bulk is pretty darn good for a defensive mon. Pure Rock typing isn't great, but its ability Purifying Salt will go a long way toward fixing that:
Code:
Purifying Salt - The Pokémon’s pure salt protects it from status conditions and halves the damage taken from Ghost-type moves.
Seriously, what the heck is this ability. Total status immunity and a free Ghost resist? That's nothing short of amazing, especially for a mon with stats like these.

On top of that, its moveset looks solid even before TMs and egg moves. Offensively, it gets Stone Edge, Earthquake, Heavy Slam, and its signature move Salt Cure, which is a Fire Spin (BP unknown) that deals boosted damage to Steel and Water mons. Defensively, it gets Stealth Rock and Recover (nerfed but still useful!). Outside of Toxic and Knock, this is just about everything it could realistically want - a physically defensive set with EdgeQuake/SR/Recover is the most obvious way to run it, although that might change depending on how Salt Cure works. (e.g. does only the initial hit get boosted damage against Steel and Water mons, or does it deal more chip damage too? If so, oh boy...)

The bigger question is how viable it will be. Great physical bulk and immunity to status are two huge advantages, but they're partially offset by the pure Rock typing, which leaves it with three common weaknesses (especially EQ). The Ghost resist is also great, making this thing a decent physical Dragapult check for a few weeks before Terastal inevitably gets it banned, but it's no Tyranitar:
Code:
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garganacl: 289-342 (71.5 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
What does everyone else think? My gut says that it'll be decent, but not amazing--maybe somewhere in the ballpark of gen 8 Hippo. Things could swing one way or another depending on what the major threats in gen 9 are and on what the rest of its movepool looks like, though.

The wild card here is Chilly Reception, the move that sets Snow and then immediately switches the user out. We still don't know what gets it. If it has good distribution, it'll have potential, especially since (I assume) setting snow and then immediately switching gives abusers an extra turn over Snow Warning.

If it gets bad distribution, Snow teams are going to be stuck with Abomasnow as their setter instead, which...yeah. Not ideal, especially since Torkoal is a decent switch-in and is probably going to be popular with all the Paradox mons running around.


The increased damage to water and steel on Salt Cure is really interesting to me. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of mons opt into water and steel as their defensive terrastallization type. It kind of seems like they want to make Garganacl a tank with tank shred. Although if Terastallization does get banned this doesn't really apply.
 
The increased damage to water and steel on Salt Cure is really interesting to me. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of mons opt into water and steel as their defensive terrastallization type. It kind of seems like they want to make Garganacl a tank with tank shred. Although if Terastallization does get banned this doesn't really apply.
this move is still crazy without tera involved. Water and steel are natural switch-ins for garganacl. If hit on the switch, that 25% will add up quick.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I tend to avoid dabbling into hypotheticals whenever possible. I can see Tera, the revival move, and a few other Pokemon/concepts testing the balance of the early metagame.

However, making any “absolute” statements is an optics disaster from my position. I refuse to promise anything before we see an actual metagame and I refuse to base a very important series of tiering opinions off of theory as opposed to reality, so for now I will keep any “definite” statements beyond clear-cut things (like the ability bans I mentioned) to a minimum.

Of course, I am happy to be transparent and answer any other questions people may have — please feel free to quote this or tag me here at any point prior to release and I’ll try to respond when possible.
How reasonable do you think a Zamazenta-Crowned debut in OU is, once Home launches? Is the stat and ability nerf finally enough to bring him down, or is the addition of Body Press still too much of a broken element to consider?
 
zama is still an offensive powerhouse that pretty much no offensive pokemon can 1v1.... but i mean it sucks vs any balance team with 4mss if it wants to run howl so idk it lost utility in its ability, it lose attack, so sounds like it can be an OU pokemon esp since its no longer able to 1v1 every physical mon since it only activates once
 
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