GOAT without any doubts.
i created lo shellder and Reflect Type Omanyte 2025 and i will creat more fking set this year
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Metagame SS LC
- Thread starter Éric
- Start date
i created lo shellder and Reflect Type Omanyte 2025 and i will creat more fking set this year
Heya, heres some yap about the tier and a general overview of my thoughts throughout LCCL. I'll go over however many teams I feel like talking about and some concepts I have thought about, however I won't be giving pastes to 99% of my teams. If people want to recreate them well, there should be enough information to do so.
First things first, I have pivoted a lot more towards Foo builds. A lot of the charm with Timbur is being able to muscle past traditional Fight checks like Foongus and Mareanie with the elemental punches, but in my world view where I think Koffing and Spritzee are a lot more valuable to avoid Diglett I see it as a lot less effective. Mach Punch is still a great tool for Vullaby, but as the tier has stabilized I think a lot of the lines vs Vull are a lot easier to navigate without the insurance of Timburr. Alongside that, I find myself shifting the Psychic Type I use on my teams a lot more than before. Galarian Ponyta is super duper good, and I find that it bounces off quite effectively vs Ferro Spikes teams which is what Abra tends to struggle the most with. I would say I rate both of the Psychic types about the same right now, but find Abra a little easier to build with in practice due to it primarily being a lot more effective of a revenge killer.
And I cannot avoid the donkey in the room. I may have suffered from a severe Mudbray addiction in LCCL. I've basically started ditching using Pawniard as my primary Vull answer. Pretty often Vull is a mon you only really have to answer once per game, and Mudbray is highly effective at doing that and has way less things that can go wrong compared to Pawniard. Running into Heat Wave Vullaby is probably around coinflip odds, which makes the idea of Pawniard in that way incredibly sketchy to me. I think Pawniard still has its place on Timburr teams with Mach Punch to help pick off Vull, but I think its fallen off pretty hard as a Vullaby answer. Mudbray is also very favored by how this tier plays out as it is a highly effective trade mon due to how high its stats are where you can 2HKO everything and easily muscle through physical attackers.
Onto some of the teams my team used this tour. If I don't mention the team, I think it is bad for one reason or the other and would not entertain the idea again.
Me vs LilyAC OR CMDoge vs Quinn-
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OR 
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I consider this to be the premier spikes structure. Well invested Mudbrays can always survive the trade war vs Vullaby on swap. I also think its pretty important for Spikes teams to not get overwhelmed early game and be able to function without spikes, but get enhanced by Spikes. With Ferroseed to take pressure off Vull to handle the Psychics, I think offensive Vull is a great piece to be able to break through stuff at any point of the game, as are Mudbray and Abra, alongside Koffing if you prefer it as your Fight check. Abra with Spikes is dangerous as hell, and using lures like Eviolite Abra makes it really easy to swing momentum in your favor. Spritzee or Koffing as the last slot on this is perfectly fine. Koffing is more immediately explosive offensively, but if you feel confident in Vull Bray Abra to be able to muscle through stuff, I prefer Spritzee for the improved Vull matchup and Wish support.
As for the game itself, it got forced to take the more slow approach of stack hazards and pivot around due to Ponyta being a nuisance. But, it turned to a Spritzee highlight where Lily just did not have the longevity to handle it alongside Spikes with Foo as a backbone to get it in without having to worry about healing. Porygon could have ended up being more scary in the game since I misclicked Abra on Foongus, but with Ferroseed at full it was still relatively secure where Lily didn't really have any options to win besides hax through
Me vs Novax OR Me vs Stecolomaxx OR trace vs feen - 
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OR 
) (
OR )
Honestly just a bunch of stuff that was thrown together, but the last 3 do have quite good synergy. Offensive water's and Galarian Ponyta in particular is a pretty good duo as they only really struggles with Ferroseed, which Galarian Ponyta should be able to completely farm. Foongus also builds off of this well as Sleep is broken and easy momentum vs non Ferroseed teams. Koffing can be used over Foongus if you choose to get rid of the posibility for sleep for being more offensively threatening. I think either is fine, but if you use Koffing I think Staryu is the mandatory offensive water with the concept. SpDef Vull is basically mandatory here as otherwise the Psychics matchup is impossible. I do think this is probably pretty unintuitive for players to pilot as despite featuring Spikes if you ever click them besides vs Ferro teams, you are basically trolling as this team really is about maximizing the use you get out of Omanyte and Galarian Ponyta as offensive behemoths that should be able to shred through meta teams if played well. No Steel will automatically make this very weak to Porygon so do be wary of that, but if you can keep your Galarian Ponyta healthy it shouldn't be an impossible game vs it
For much of the Novax game there wasn't really anything to showcase as how to play, as Galarian Ponyta had a pretty easy autowin game on preview. However, stuff like the agressive double to Mudbray early game does showcase the more agressive play you have to do if you choose to pilot less defensively sound builds like this one.
The game vs Steco was basically me being forced to dance around with Mienfoo all game because of missing an HJK vs Timburr, but eventually I was able to force chip on Pawn with Staryu and from there my more offensive lines were opened up to be able to trade well in the endgame. More of a Foo masterclass showcase than anything else really
The game with trace was just unfortunate. Feen got rewarded for gambling the entire game on a turn 2 speed tie and from there the game was unplayable. Shoutouts Banded Mienfoo and it is a weakness this team has that I learned on that day though.
Flou vs Larry - 
It was at this point I finally came to the conclusion Pawniard is still cool... as an answer to Psychic types. I ended up liking SpDef Juice Pawniard as an answer to Galarian Ponyta to avoid Pony wars being able to live Gleam into Mystical Fire as well as obviously getting the Defiant boost to turn it to an offensive juggernaut with the attack boost. Alongside that, if you don't have to worry about running rocks on it you are free to run Thunder Wave which more often than not is quite a good click and better than having to worry about good Foo play if they double to avoid Neutralizing Gas from Koffing to heal up and infinitely wall Pawniard. Thanks to Pawniward, Vull is able to afford a more offensive set to try to break through opposing teams easier. The Grookey matchup was quite sketchy so Koffing was the Fighting check of choice alongside with having another way to be able to naturally break through opponents. Galarian Ponyta is the Psychic of choice here primarily for its better matchup into the waters, but Flou performed pretty well in tests with it so we went through and used it.
Flou played this game pretty well to turn it into a Galarian Ponyta win. He got it in on Koffing early game to pop Vullaby's Juice and from there Galarian Pony did Galarian Pony things and won. Flou in SWSH.
trace vs kythr -
Funky spikestack. Click on the mons if you want it. I do not reccomend using this team if you are trying to win in the current meta.
This team can't kill Ferroseed. You could fix this by putting on a like Galarian Ponyta over Abra but then you are forced to revenge kill Foo with Vull early game, which is probably fine. Anyhow, the best lead into Juice Dwebble is Mienfoo to be able to kill with Knock Off into HJK, however if you do max defense and run protect to cover Fake Out you live and can get both entry hazards up. The Rocks and Spikes here are p essential, as without them this Carvanha spread can't KO a non Knocked Foo with Psychic Fangs. You could Knock the Foo with Dwebble early game like what trace did in the game, however that was not the designated path to do it and was my fault for not properly communicating lines. Spikes in Particular are pretty impactful for Abra and Pory overwhelming their checks to be able to ideally be able to win with one of Abra, Pory, or Carv in the endgame through each other overwhelming their checks. Vull here is physically offensive while being able to survive an HJK after rocks to pivot in on Foo if needed and with hazards up Vull can 1v1 somce of its checks like Oma a lot more effectively. Omanyte is here to have a Vull swap and fits the team well regardless as switching into Omanyte unless u have a Ferroseed is already very difficult but it will kill a mon in some fashion no matter what if there isn't a Ferro. Endure is pretty funny to trade with stuff like Foo if given the chance.
Anyways, the team progressed smoothly in the game despite trace's mistake early game knocking the Foo. Kythr wasn't able to withstand Porygon in the late game after having to expand his Abra's health to neutralize our Abra, and the Dark type's were able to get rid of Pawniard which was the final piece needed for Porygon to have an easy endgame. This was a fun offensive Porygon showcase when we typically don't see it because of other special attackers being a lot more consistent typically.
Overall, I do think the tier is in a great state. I don't support banning anything. Abra is probably the most polarizing mon matchups wise but it certainly does not reach the point of being banworthy to me right now, but even while ignoring traditional counterplay like Diglett there are good options to try to combat it in the builder if you branch out some. Only tiering action that would have my support is freeing Magby as I think LC is at its best when all playstyles are as viable as possible and it would give HO a nice boost while I believe it would not be overwhelming. This said, as I said I do not think the tier needs any tiering action so I have no reason to make a fuss about it.
And heres my updated VR. I am happy to discuss any of these rankings on Discord. Cheers.
First things first, I have pivoted a lot more towards Foo builds. A lot of the charm with Timbur is being able to muscle past traditional Fight checks like Foongus and Mareanie with the elemental punches, but in my world view where I think Koffing and Spritzee are a lot more valuable to avoid Diglett I see it as a lot less effective. Mach Punch is still a great tool for Vullaby, but as the tier has stabilized I think a lot of the lines vs Vull are a lot easier to navigate without the insurance of Timburr. Alongside that, I find myself shifting the Psychic Type I use on my teams a lot more than before. Galarian Ponyta is super duper good, and I find that it bounces off quite effectively vs Ferro Spikes teams which is what Abra tends to struggle the most with. I would say I rate both of the Psychic types about the same right now, but find Abra a little easier to build with in practice due to it primarily being a lot more effective of a revenge killer.
And I cannot avoid the donkey in the room. I may have suffered from a severe Mudbray addiction in LCCL. I've basically started ditching using Pawniard as my primary Vull answer. Pretty often Vull is a mon you only really have to answer once per game, and Mudbray is highly effective at doing that and has way less things that can go wrong compared to Pawniard. Running into Heat Wave Vullaby is probably around coinflip odds, which makes the idea of Pawniard in that way incredibly sketchy to me. I think Pawniard still has its place on Timburr teams with Mach Punch to help pick off Vull, but I think its fallen off pretty hard as a Vullaby answer. Mudbray is also very favored by how this tier plays out as it is a highly effective trade mon due to how high its stats are where you can 2HKO everything and easily muscle through physical attackers.
Onto some of the teams my team used this tour. If I don't mention the team, I think it is bad for one reason or the other and would not entertain the idea again.
Me vs LilyAC OR CMDoge vs Quinn-
( OR )I consider this to be the premier spikes structure. Well invested Mudbrays can always survive the trade war vs Vullaby on swap. I also think its pretty important for Spikes teams to not get overwhelmed early game and be able to function without spikes, but get enhanced by Spikes. With Ferroseed to take pressure off Vull to handle the Psychics, I think offensive Vull is a great piece to be able to break through stuff at any point of the game, as are Mudbray and Abra, alongside Koffing if you prefer it as your Fight check. Abra with Spikes is dangerous as hell, and using lures like Eviolite Abra makes it really easy to swing momentum in your favor. Spritzee or Koffing as the last slot on this is perfectly fine. Koffing is more immediately explosive offensively, but if you feel confident in Vull Bray Abra to be able to muscle through stuff, I prefer Spritzee for the improved Vull matchup and Wish support.
As for the game itself, it got forced to take the more slow approach of stack hazards and pivot around due to Ponyta being a nuisance. But, it turned to a Spritzee highlight where Lily just did not have the longevity to handle it alongside Spikes with Foo as a backbone to get it in without having to worry about healing. Porygon could have ended up being more scary in the game since I misclicked Abra on Foongus, but with Ferroseed at full it was still relatively secure where Lily didn't really have any options to win besides hax through
Me vs Novax OR Me vs Stecolomaxx OR trace vs feen -
( OR ) ( OR )Honestly just a bunch of stuff that was thrown together, but the last 3 do have quite good synergy. Offensive water's and Galarian Ponyta in particular is a pretty good duo as they only really struggles with Ferroseed, which Galarian Ponyta should be able to completely farm. Foongus also builds off of this well as Sleep is broken and easy momentum vs non Ferroseed teams. Koffing can be used over Foongus if you choose to get rid of the posibility for sleep for being more offensively threatening. I think either is fine, but if you use Koffing I think Staryu is the mandatory offensive water with the concept. SpDef Vull is basically mandatory here as otherwise the Psychics matchup is impossible. I do think this is probably pretty unintuitive for players to pilot as despite featuring Spikes if you ever click them besides vs Ferro teams, you are basically trolling as this team really is about maximizing the use you get out of Omanyte and Galarian Ponyta as offensive behemoths that should be able to shred through meta teams if played well. No Steel will automatically make this very weak to Porygon so do be wary of that, but if you can keep your Galarian Ponyta healthy it shouldn't be an impossible game vs it
For much of the Novax game there wasn't really anything to showcase as how to play, as Galarian Ponyta had a pretty easy autowin game on preview. However, stuff like the agressive double to Mudbray early game does showcase the more agressive play you have to do if you choose to pilot less defensively sound builds like this one.
The game vs Steco was basically me being forced to dance around with Mienfoo all game because of missing an HJK vs Timburr, but eventually I was able to force chip on Pawn with Staryu and from there my more offensive lines were opened up to be able to trade well in the endgame. More of a Foo masterclass showcase than anything else really
The game with trace was just unfortunate. Feen got rewarded for gambling the entire game on a turn 2 speed tie and from there the game was unplayable. Shoutouts Banded Mienfoo and it is a weakness this team has that I learned on that day though.
Flou vs Larry -
It was at this point I finally came to the conclusion Pawniard is still cool... as an answer to Psychic types. I ended up liking SpDef Juice Pawniard as an answer to Galarian Ponyta to avoid Pony wars being able to live Gleam into Mystical Fire as well as obviously getting the Defiant boost to turn it to an offensive juggernaut with the attack boost. Alongside that, if you don't have to worry about running rocks on it you are free to run Thunder Wave which more often than not is quite a good click and better than having to worry about good Foo play if they double to avoid Neutralizing Gas from Koffing to heal up and infinitely wall Pawniard. Thanks to Pawniward, Vull is able to afford a more offensive set to try to break through opposing teams easier. The Grookey matchup was quite sketchy so Koffing was the Fighting check of choice alongside with having another way to be able to naturally break through opponents. Galarian Ponyta is the Psychic of choice here primarily for its better matchup into the waters, but Flou performed pretty well in tests with it so we went through and used it.
Flou played this game pretty well to turn it into a Galarian Ponyta win. He got it in on Koffing early game to pop Vullaby's Juice and from there Galarian Pony did Galarian Pony things and won. Flou in SWSH.
trace vs kythr -
Funky spikestack. Click on the mons if you want it. I do not reccomend using this team if you are trying to win in the current meta.
This team can't kill Ferroseed. You could fix this by putting on a like Galarian Ponyta over Abra but then you are forced to revenge kill Foo with Vull early game, which is probably fine. Anyhow, the best lead into Juice Dwebble is Mienfoo to be able to kill with Knock Off into HJK, however if you do max defense and run protect to cover Fake Out you live and can get both entry hazards up. The Rocks and Spikes here are p essential, as without them this Carvanha spread can't KO a non Knocked Foo with Psychic Fangs. You could Knock the Foo with Dwebble early game like what trace did in the game, however that was not the designated path to do it and was my fault for not properly communicating lines. Spikes in Particular are pretty impactful for Abra and Pory overwhelming their checks to be able to ideally be able to win with one of Abra, Pory, or Carv in the endgame through each other overwhelming their checks. Vull here is physically offensive while being able to survive an HJK after rocks to pivot in on Foo if needed and with hazards up Vull can 1v1 somce of its checks like Oma a lot more effectively. Omanyte is here to have a Vull swap and fits the team well regardless as switching into Omanyte unless u have a Ferroseed is already very difficult but it will kill a mon in some fashion no matter what if there isn't a Ferro. Endure is pretty funny to trade with stuff like Foo if given the chance.
Anyways, the team progressed smoothly in the game despite trace's mistake early game knocking the Foo. Kythr wasn't able to withstand Porygon in the late game after having to expand his Abra's health to neutralize our Abra, and the Dark type's were able to get rid of Pawniard which was the final piece needed for Porygon to have an easy endgame. This was a fun offensive Porygon showcase when we typically don't see it because of other special attackers being a lot more consistent typically.
Overall, I do think the tier is in a great state. I don't support banning anything. Abra is probably the most polarizing mon matchups wise but it certainly does not reach the point of being banworthy to me right now, but even while ignoring traditional counterplay like Diglett there are good options to try to combat it in the builder if you branch out some. Only tiering action that would have my support is freeing Magby as I think LC is at its best when all playstyles are as viable as possible and it would give HO a nice boost while I believe it would not be overwhelming. This said, as I said I do not think the tier needs any tiering action so I have no reason to make a fuss about it.
And heres my updated VR. I am happy to discuss any of these rankings on Discord. Cheers.