Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

Status
Not open for further replies.

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
is a Tutoris a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnus
UU Leader
How come Nido dropped a subrank? With his amazing power and coverage (yet limited speed) he's great against defence, would love to hear your reasoning.
Nidoking's really hard to click with correctly; a lot of the time you'll be left doing nothing even in its good matchups, and being a Ground-type that doesn't actually have any of the defensive utility you'd expect from one (with the exception of being an okay short-term Koko check) makes it tough to build with. The rise of max spdef Gastrodon doesn't help matters either since that's one of the few things that can switch into Nidoking pretty safely, and extremely bulky teams usually carry Blissey as well as Gastrodon which makes Nidoking borderline useless. It's still got the potential to be a big threat, but justifying its usage can feel kinda hard.
 
Nidoking's really hard to click with correctly; a lot of the time you'll be left doing nothing even in its good matchups, and being a Ground-type that doesn't actually have any of the defensive utility you'd expect from one (with the exception of being an okay short-term Koko check) makes it tough to build with. The rise of max spdef Gastrodon doesn't help matters either since that's one of the few things that can switch into Nidoking pretty safely, and extremely bulky teams usually carry Blissey as well as Gastrodon which makes Nidoking borderline useless. It's still got the potential to be a big threat, but justifying its usage can feel kinda hard.
Ah right that's fair just find him to be good against some of the top meta mons like Heatran and Lando while annoying Pex and non AV melmetal which can be scouted anyways.
 

ausma

token smogon furry
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Top Artistis a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
OU Forum Leader
Enough of this banter; this is the SS OU VR thread. If you have nominations, you are welcome and encouraged to make them. In spite of this, though, it is important to back up your claims with empirical evidence. I recognize that this can be a bit hard at times, and that we can't make great arguments all the time. That's okay! We all make mistakes, but what's key is having the mentality to learn from them and applying what you learn. However, this is no excuse for menial back-and-forths and claims of trolling. This will not be tolerated any further.

Jakerocks73, let me give you a quick tip for future nominations: consider the role of the Pokemon, as well as how this role interactions with its kit and the 6v6 landscape. I noticed a lot of your arguments to move Tapu Koko down centered around things like strict 1v1s (which, for an offensive pivot, is a really bad angle to assess it at) and, simply, really poor usage of Tapu Koko with its role and matchup spread in mind.

Tapu Koko is primarily an offensive pivot that boasts a solid offensive typing, a good Speed tier, and access to U-turn to freely accrue momentum even against Electric-immunities. Its defensive profile for what it aims to accomplish is very solid; in tandem with Roost and its offensive profile it is able to take on Pokemon like Tornadus-T and many bulky Water-types throughout the course of the game and come in on them frequently to take stray hits and Scald.

The problem with your argument in this case is that it isn't really considering how Tapu Koko tends to come in, and, importantly, how it works as a pivot. Even if it has some poor offensive matchups, U-turn almost always gains value against them, especially with the fact that the threat of its Speed and STAB combo is enough to scare out Pokemon it matches positively against, even if they live its attacks. What you are missing is that even when it doesn't immediately threaten with the OHKO, it almost always can force crucial damage to open up allies like Heatran which is almost always a reason for something like Garchomp or Dragonite to switch out against Dazzling Gleam, or a Toxapex to get out from the threat of a Thunderbolt.

Furthermore, regarding its defensive profile, it rarely comes in on big wallbreakers like what you imply, as this is almost never Tapu Koko's job. Even when it does come in, it has Roost, the Speed, and a good STAB combo to force them out anyway, and U-turn to cover retreats or safely escape on an incoming attack. Using your own examples, all three are scared out by Dazzling Gleam and Tapu Koko can easily heal back up to scare them out later, and then accrue momentum with U-turn. Terrakion and Conkeldurr are also just not good examples given they're rather rare sights, but even if they were, your argument dismisses the fact that consistently switching in on these Pokemon with your Tapu Koko is generally poor play.

The way to frame your argument, imo, should center around if Tapu Koko is actually able to consistently do its job as an offensive pivot in the context of how it matches up against the Pokemon it's usually threatening, if the threat factor between its offensive profile and Speed isn't enough to make it an A+ worthy pivot, or if it simply does not get as many opportunities to do its thing anymore. This considers the 6v6 and also argues in the context of how Tapu Koko is often utilized. For future arguments, I would advise considering this. I, and several others, want to help you out, but being dismissive and aggressive toward dissenting opinions is not conducive to discussion and your own ability to learn as a player and poster.

As I said, the banter stops here. Consider this a formal warning that further posts donning such a tone will be punished with an infraction. Let's keep nominating and instead continue with civil discussion. Have a good day.
 
my-image (3).png


Dropping this here, a bit burned out for explanation but most of these are fairly self-explanatory.

RISES:

Zapdos :Zapdos: A -> A+

Tyranitar :tyranitar: B+ -> A-

Hippowdon :hippowdon: B- -> B

Terrakion :terrakion: C- -> C
(Really don't understand how this is among borderline unplayables and extremely select niches, bump it and just adjust placements).

Alakazam :alakazam: C- -> C

Amoonguss :amoonguss: C- -> C

Darmanitan :darmanitan: C- -> C

Haxorus :haxorus: C- -> C

Necrozma :necrozma: C- -> C

DROPS:


Ninetales-A :ninetales-alola: A -> A-

Volcarona :volcarona: A -> A-
(Can't help but think the reason this is still there is because of Finchinator bias).

Corviknight :corviknight: A- -> B+

Magnezone :magnezone: A- -> B+

Mew :mew: B+ -> B

Cloyster :cloyster: B -> B-
(100% Finchintaor's fault this was in B+ lol).

Scizor :scizor: B -> B- (C+)
(Probably too generous, need more thoughts).

Avalugg :avalugg: C -> C-

Conkeldurr :conkeldurr: C -> C-

Cresselia :cresselia: C -> C-

Glastrier :glastrier: C -> C-

Marowak-A :marowak-alola: C -> C-

Moltres :moltres: C -> C-

Primarina :primarina: C -> C-

Shedinja :shedinja: C -> C-

Zarude :zarude: C -> C-

See the pattern with blaming Finchinator?
 
Last edited:
Not really sure i follow this one especially as it has been so effective in facilitating the best set up mons in the game and enabling veil offense like nothing else.
Had conflicting thoughts on that one, but you're probably right. Wanted to make this somewhat cohesive with what I've said about it previously, then again the meta has changed some since then.
 
Built this tier a lot for WCoP, have a few things to say - will mostly just be focusing on my own nominations but I'll mention some others too.

S ranks should imo be:

S:
Landorus-Therian
Weavile

S-:
Heatran
-maybe some others like Clef/Koko/Ferro/Melm-

I don't think Lando has any business dropping like some previous posters have suggested but I do think Weavile deserves to go up one.

(moreso Urshifu but I feel it applies to both) A -> A+
These two saw massive usage as a core. They pair phenomenally together; there really isn't much that can handle an Urshifu backed up by Future Sight, and while this has always been true, these teams have found more success lately by running Tapu Lele instead of a Slowtwin. Its Future Sight is ungodly strong, chunking physdef Slowbro for up to 50%, more than enough for Urshifu to pop it open. They also have really amazing offensive/defensive synergy; Urshifu smashes stuff like Heatran, Ferrothorn, Melmetal etc. while being an okay pivot into Weavile. Tapu Lele drops checks to Urshifu like Toxapex, Dragonite, Buzzwole etc. they're just a really good pair and I think they both deserve A+ at this time.

A- -> A
Blacephalon has seen a lot of usage in WCoP and is something I personally built a ton with to find structures I liked. For the most part, the only Ghost resist in this tier is Weavile; Tyranitar has been picking up a bit and is by far Blace's worst matchup, but you will very often run into a team that has no Shadow Ball resist and is forced to rely on very awkward pivoting to keep the clown in check. I think having two very good sets - Specs, which is one of the most brutal wallbreakers in OU, and Scarf, which devastates offense in similar ways to mons like Scarf Kartana - makes it a pretty versatile thing too, since if you see something like Blace + Kart or even Blace + Weavile at preview, you don't really know what set it's running. I find it's a bit difficult to build with since having next to no defensive utility is tough, and that Speed tier is just oh so frustrating - it's great but being just slower than Kartana is tragic. There are only so many routes you can take with it as a result. That said, it's a really strong Pokemon rn and I feel it's definitely on par with the likes of Zeraora and Volcarona.

A- -> A
Dragonite has a very valuable defensive profile atm, being a great check to stuff like Urshifu, Kartana, Heatran, Volcarona, Volcanion etc. and providing ever-valuable Heal Bell support. It fits phenomenally on those Koko/Ferro/Clef structures that saw a ton of use in WCoP and should rise a rank to reflect that in my opinion. Being so customisable is really great for it; if you need it to run moves to check any of Heatran, Kartana, Landorus, Glowking, Urshifu etc. it can do that thanks to that crazy movepool it has. Just think it's in a great spot.

A -> A-
Fraud Pokemon, just really hard to justify over Tapu Koko most of the time. Extremely minimal defensive utility and tends to fall flat in its sweeping role. Still pretty damn good for Pult-weak teams and smashes Sand like it's nobody's business but I think A- fits it better.

A- -> B+
High risk high reward breaker that's difficult to position and finds itself dying really quickly. Certainly an absolutely enormous threat, but doesn't feel like it's on the level of Volcanion or Victini at all. Too easily checked by stuff like Koko and Slowbro really; yes, they can't handle it long term, but it's not a long term Pokemon and will be dead long before it manages to break them.

B+ -> A
The immortal slug is really good rn even if it's a stupid momentum suck a lot of the time. Has a nasty habit of just 6-0ing teams; being a hard stop to Koko, Blacephalon (kinda), Dragapult, Zapdos etc. is just insane compression atm and it saw a looooooot of wcop usage because of that. Feels sorta par with Toxapex for that bulky water role, maybe a little worse but not enough to be a subrank lower imo.

B+ -> A-
Sand good, Drill's rlly hard to handle for a lot of teams with generally low Corv usage and SpDef Lando being far and away the most common variant, CB Tar is crazy tough to switch into, both should rise

Some other things that I don't feel qualified to flesh out but think they're worth nothing:

- Rain is good atm and should rise but other than Pelipper I don't know what should go up really
- Rillaboom's making somewhat of a resurgence and may be good enough for B+
- Rotom-W is getting crazy high usage and should rise but I don't feel like making an argument for it
- Victini could maaaaaybe rise altho idk how convinced I am. Really nice into a lot of trends like LeleShifu / FerroClef balance, though.
- Melmetal's lowkey broken.

Here's a quick 1am overall VR from me to end this off. Nothing is ordered within its subrank. I left out a lot of things because I don't really care too much about the low ranked stuff that I've never seen or used.

I feel that sun deserves a higher ranking. Why do you think heatran is not S? I feel it has great splash ability and is equal to the landot at the moment.
 

blooclipse

formerly Bluecliqse
I have a couple noms! These are my first noms I've posted, so be nice lol

:ss/tyranitar:
B+ -> A or A-
ttar, the man, the myth, the legend. It is such a good pokemon. Band is unwallable with those monstrous stone edges, considering that there are barely any splashable rock resists in the tier. Every good rock resist gets absolutely slammed by its coverage, and that's not even considering the fact that it could be some other niche set too. It has stuff like Heavy Slam, Ice Punch, EQ, Fire Punch, and more to really flesh out its set and make it super hard to check. Excadrill becoming a lot better in the current metagame definitely also helps a ton.

:ss/excadrill:

B+ -> A or A-
Speaking of Excadrill, here it is. It is actually a really good mon right now, with its 4x resist to rock helping it basically not care about hazards and get spins off consistently. I've tried out a Rapid Spin 3 attacks set with Sand Force, and its actually pretty fun. Good old lefties sd 3 attacks, sr spin 2a, 4a, anything works. It can also be a good short-term check to lele, especially if it chooses to run Thunder over Fblast. Drill is just a really good mon right now, and works together with other mons to support a team super well. Also, with a lot of its checks now running spdef more often than not (cough cough lando cough cough), its doing a lot better with offensive sets too.

:ss/gastrodon:

B+ -> A
I definitely agree with the current pro-slug sentiment. Its a great glue mon, and with lots of SpD investment it can blanket check many special attackers. With Sticky Hold it can completely absorb Knocks, and with Storm Drain it can help out a team with Rain MUs. It's just an immortal slug that sticks around forever and doesn't feel like moving. I stan.

:ss/ninetales alola:

A -> A+
Personally, i'm not a HO kind of gal. However, Alolatales is super good. Fast veils, can disrupt the game through Encore, has lots of utility, STAB freeze-dry, and more. It also pressures a lot of common defoggers, so getting rid of its veils are pretty hard. Just a great all-around mon and it has a lot of use. Veil offense is currently thriving and alolatales deserves a rise because of it

:arctozolt: EDIT: why is my arctozolt so tiny
:ss/arctozolt:
B+ -> A-
same deal as alolatales, except offensive and destroys everything. This thing just barrels through teams that aren't ready. With hail and veil support, it becomes downright impossible to deal with. I've been testing out a sub 3 attacks set with lefties, and its great. Physical BoltBeam coverage (or mixed if you want0 is super good in this tier. Zolt deserves a rise.

:ss/pelipper: :ss/barraskewda:
B+ -> A-

Its rain, it does rain things. Semi-rain is super fun, hard rain is strong as hell. Not much to say. In this metagame where there's a lot less rain checks, and there's only two that have reliable recovery, rain is strong af. Rillaboom is also dropping like hell in usage so yeah, great playstyle.

Be nice, again my first noms.
 
Last edited:

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
is a Tutoris a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnus
UU Leader
I feel that sun deserves a higher ranking. Why do you think heatran is not S? I feel it has great splash ability and is equal to the landot at the moment.
No real opinion on sun because I haven't seen it or used it much, but I think Heatran is not really on the same level as Lando / Weavile (although it's not far off). It's kind of hard to elaborate on this because like, Heatran doesn't really have flaws outside of not having enough moveslots. I just find it's less specific compared to other Steels - it's a decent check to most things, but not a great check to many. Depending on its set you can even lose to stuff you're supposed to beat, like Clefable or (rarely) Volcarona for instance. The fact that it blankets so much and has endless general utility is what gives it so many openings to find its way onto teams though, so I can see why others rate it super highly - I just don't think its game-in/game-out performance is as good as Lando or Weavile's, and it faces some competition for its role where those two really don't.
 
231-2310319_salamence-salamence-sprite-png.jpgUR-C-

I would like to propose my first nomination to the formerly uber worthy dragon, Salamence. Also I do apologise if my formatting is poor so please don't let this sway your opinion. I raise this nom as Salamence has struggled to compete with Dnite ever since Dnite gained multiscale which is even better now due to boots. However, with Sand and Hail based teams becoming more viable and more used as a result, chip from weather means Dnite can struggle to keep multiscale (what his niche is based upon). Mence, of course, doesn't suffer from such an issue and can fulfil the role of a dragon dance sweeper or breaker on those teams leading to my nomination of C- due to the niche being specific like Haxorus'. And of course, Mence is destroyed by ice shard from Weavile regardless and specs Dragapult before a dragon dance.

Calculations (UU dragon dance)

+1 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 180-212 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 180-212 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

4 SpA Salamence Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 178-210 (44.6 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (stronger than fire fang)

4 SpA Salamence Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 178-210 (44.6 - 52.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 428-504 (110.8 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 169-199 (44.2 - 52%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 253-298 (66.2 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Salamence Fire Blast vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 286-338 (72.7 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (caught a mistake where the item on buzz was outdated)

+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 315-372 (97.5 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 149-176 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I am very open to discussion and would love to hear your thoughts and criticism so I can nom better in the future!
 

Ruft

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
OU Leader
With the World Cup of Pokemon bringing along many metagame shakeups, we've got a fairly big update.

Rises

from A+ to S-
Melmetal has become a very prominent threat recently. It's very moldable to a team's needs, as it's able to run a variety of sets, but Toxic variants are especially potent and tough to deal with.
from A to A+
Choice Scarf makes for a strong cleaner and can also set up a breaker with Future Sight, while Choice Specs and Calm Mind can be a nightmare for more defensive teams to deal with.
from A to A+
Taunt to stop "checks" like Buzzwole, Dragonite, Clefable, Zapdos, and Corviknight from healing up and Toxapex from using Toxic, with Protective Pads to avoid Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs, and Rough Skin damage as well as Static and Flame Body, makes Urshifu both punishing and hard to punish. It pairs well with the aforementioned Future Sight Tapu Lele, as it makes Close Combat nigh impossible to switch into and they can cover eachother's checks remarkably well.
from A to A+
As it has both great offensive and defensive capabilities, offensive and defensive sets both work well. Offensively, Thunderbolt/Volt Switch + Hurricane is tough to switch into, especially if you add Weather Ball in rain in the mix, and defensively, it's a good (and, thanks to Static, annoying) check to the likes of Kartana, Rillaboom, Tornadus-T, Zapdos-Galar, non-Stone Edge Hawlucha, and even Urshifu and Buzzwole in a pinch.
from A- to A
Rotom-Wash is a great pivot, and makes for a nice check to threats like Melmetal, Excadrill, and Volcanion. It's quite customizable, with Pain Split, alongside a Spikes immunity, giving it great longevity, all of Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, and Thunder Wave being viable status options (though Will-O-Wisp is usually the best choice to cripple the likes of Melmetal), and Defog allowing it to keep rocks off against both Heatran and Landorus-T. Nasty Plot is also an option that's very threatening to various teams.
from B+ to A-
The slug checks a ton of common threats, including, but not limited to, Heatran, Tapu Koko, Zapdos, Dragapult, Rotom-W, Volcanion, Nidoking, non-Giga Drain Volcarona, and non-Freeze-Dry Arctozolt. Storm Drain gives it a great matchup against the surging rain archetype.
from B+ to A-
from B- to B
from C+ to B-
Rain is doing very well at the moment in the form of Pelipper + Barraskewda + Ferrothorn + Zapdos + Seismitoad + Volcanion/Crawdaunt/etc. Both rain-boosted Liquidation and Flip Turn, with Close Combat for Ferrothorn, from Barraskewda are tough to deal with, Seismitoad is a nice cleaner with great coverage and a good typing, and Crawdaunt patches up rain's matchup against defensive teams.
from B+ to A-
Sand is also doing well. Tyranitar is very hard to switch into if it's holding a Choice Band and it has a decent defensive profile to boot, being able to check Heatran, Slowking-Galar, Blacephalon, and Volcarona in a pinch, while also shutting down hail. Excadrill can be a threat for various teams, as it outspeeds almost the entire metagame in sand and common Pokemon like Clefable, Tapu Koko, and non-Heat Wave Zapdos can be setup fodder.
from B to B+
We've seen a rise in fatter Swords Dance Rillaboom sets with Leftovers. It has solid bulk, useful priority, can Knock Off some key targets, and Grassy Terrain provides great support for teammates like Heatran and Melmetal, by giving them passive recovery and weakening Earthquake.
from B- to B
Many teams drop bulky Waters like Toxapex, Slowbro, and Tapu Fini in favor of Rotom-W or Gastrodon, making Blaziken a big threat. We've been seeing more Air Balloon, which allows it to set up on even Ground-types, alongside the usual setup targets like Weavile.
from B- to B
Since Nature's Madness and Dazzling Gleam are very punishing for both Landorus-T and Garchomp, Hippowdon is one of the few Ground-types alongside Gastrodon that can reliably check this increasingly common Tapu Koko set.
from UR to C-
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-634305
from UR to C-
Niche rocker on HO with Stealth Rock + Taunt + Steel Beam, while it's also able to function as a solid Weavile check.

Drops

from A+ to A
from A to A-
While still very solid Pokemon, we've been seeing less teams opt for Slowbro and Tapu Fini as their bulky Water of choice, in favor of more Rotom-W, Gastrodon, and Urshifu/Volcanion/Dragonite + Ferrothorn. Slowbro is quite vulnerable to status (like Toxic from the likes of Melmetal), weak to pivoting + Spikes (provided no HDB), has only one slot as a main attacking move outside of FuturePort which makes it limiting, and needs SpDef investment if it wants to check Choice Specs Volcanion, while Tapu Fini isn't really a Volcanion check at all and also suffers from an increase in Melmetal and Zapdos usage.
from A to A-
Volcarona has trouble getting past common Pokemon like Heatran, Landorus-T, Garchomp, and Gastrodon, while matchup up poorly against both rain and sand.
from A to A-
Zeraora is still a good Pokemon with great cleaning potential, but it's lacking when it comes to immediate power, making it sometimes hard to justify running.
from A- to B+
Using Magnezone is often a big opportunity cost, as outside of trapping key targets like Ferrothorn, Corviknight, and Melmetal (with the latter usually running Earthquake, making that a difficult task), it's poor both offensively and defensively.
from A- to B+
With a slight dip in Landorus-T usage in favor of other Ground-types like Garchomp, Gastrodon, Excadrill, and Hippowdon, the resident Landorus punisher takes a hit. Additionally, it's poor into Zapdos, which is increasingly common.
from B+ to B
Its Cosmic Power set is a far cry from where it used to be, though it's still viable, alongside its other setup, entry hazard setting, and utility sets.
from B+ to B
Decent HO option, but quite poor into the increasingly common Tyranitar and Tapu Koko.
from B+ to B
With a poor defensive profile outside of checking Tapu Koko, it can be tough to get value out of Nidoking in matchups against checks like Gastrodon, Slowking, and Assault Vest Tornadus-T. While it can be very threatening against various BOs, it still requires the user to make the right plays, making it rather hit-or-miss.
from B+ to B
Less Landorus-T as the pick for a Ground-type and more SpDef Garchomp, Gastrodon, Excadrill, and Hippowdon makes it tougher to get value out of Nihilego.
from B- to C+
Still a threat on rain, but Zapdos is the more consistent option, alongside Seismitoad for the Electric immunity.
from C+ to C
Ice + Ground is good, but not into the increasingly common Rotom-W.
from C to C-
from C to C-
These two are only usable on stall and uncommon even on stall.
from C to C-
from C to C-
from C to C-
from C to C-
from C to C-
As time goes on, the reasons to use these Pokemon become less and less apparent.
from C to UR
Grimmsnarl is largely outclassed, as Ninetales-Alola is a much better dual screen setter, which makes Grimmsnarl niche to the point it's not worth ranking anymore.


As I've already explained every change to varying extents (and Finch is on vacation), I'd like to refer questions and discussions regarding these changes to the SQSA and metagame discussion threads, respectively. You can read up in this thread for additional reasoning behind the noms that went through, and you can also check out the WCoP replays as an additional resource.

Nominations are open.

Also, have a nice summer (or winter) everyone.
 

Ruft

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
OU Leader
Shouldn't Grimmsnarl still be ranked considering it's a screener that checks Dragapult and doesn't lose to Tyranitar switching in at the same time? Seems like decent niches over Koko and Atales
Taunting heatran and still setting up on it is also nice over Atales
There were multiple votes for both C- and UR, but ultimately more for UR, deeming this niche too small/situational to be ranked.
 
Blastoise and Venusaur vibing in the OU VR​
Anyways, some of the sub-ranks need some cleaning

0719930C-B887-47C4-8573-A8C844CE49EA.png
A- > A: Proven time and time to be an excellent glue mon that also doubles as a wincon and rain check. It fills many holes these spike stacking BOs struggle with. It is also one of the best anti-cheese mon. Covering mus like HO, rain, and sun. It doesn’t appreciate the upstick of sand, but it appreciates the increased dominance of some of its partners like Taunt Shifu, Melm, and Spikes via Skarm which all do amazing at crippling its checks.

0B168156-7D00-4CC1-B2DC-F8DDCB294280.png
A- > A: One of the best bulky waters in the tier rn. Its defensive capabilities are busted, checking more than half of the tier in one slot while having very few things that can OHKO it while switching in safely. Rilla and Ferro both fear Scald burns. The lack of rocks is easily made up by the fact that Tran and Clef are both rockers and great partners for it. Gastro already rose but I feel like it needs to go higher.

C5B376EC-143B-423D-B023-27854359909E.png
B > B-: Still solid on HO but we have seen slightly less appearences from it. Washtom usage is at an all time high. Rilla is making a comeback, also has trouble with setting up on balance builds without Lando/Chomp, leading to issues with inconsistently. Plus it was ranked a little too high in the first place.

3F122300-DB6A-49DD-8DF8-99D22E5D3D9C.png
B > C+: Rarely ever actually sweeps, needs SE to hit Zap, leaving it vulnerable to status. Also not helping that Clef invests in more physD these days in response to Weav, and ofc Big Bird. It is more worth using some else on a slot than using something as inconsistent as Lucha.

AF21DF58-C04F-4BFB-9871-3046B719881A.png
B > B-: Demon Mew has only gotten more inconsistent with Ttar and Weav, along with the ghosts easily 2HKOing it even after a CP. Also doesn’t like fast mons with Taunt or Toxic like Torn or Koko. Lead sets are prob its best rn, but HO teams have gravitated to more durable and immediately threatening rockers like Chomp or Balloon Tran. Utility sets don’t check much defensively and suffers from 4MSS, while being outclassed by other utility mons. There has been some experimentation with NP Vacuum Wave, but they tend to not go far.

5E903BF8-39F8-49E9-82CE-358B2117F4E0.png
B > B+: Rain is at its peak rn, and Toad is almost as important to rain as Peli/Barra/Ferro. Not only is it threatening on its own, but is an a electric immunity, and lures alot of anti-rain measures cause its coverage is nuts (Knot for Washtom, Slowbro, and Gastro) (Icy Wind for Dnite and Rilla) (Focus Miss for Ferro). Which is important rn since there are many of those are high in usage rn. Daunt returning to exploit the balance teams that are more frequently used also increases Toad’s likelihood of cleaning.

4D8B344F-EFF0-40F5-B820-3FF8A036B637.png
B > B+: Skarm is great rn. Being a spike setter that doesn’t fear spikes and can stay alive in the long term grants it a niche over Ferro and established itself as a staple on spike stacking Balance teams that are all over WCOP. Plus it punishes defoggers with Toxic or strong BP. All of this while checking Weav, Shifu, Ttar, Chomp, Kart, Drill, and even Buzzwole. Toxic and BP are also annoying to switch into for BO teams.

3F8CE7D2-9B42-4419-B2C6-7C913E3EA162.png
C+ > C: Not having a good time at all. Can’t touch the rising Hippo and Gastro at all. Sand teams have gotten less reliant on sand abusers to function, with Drill usually being the one sand rusher on the team. Very prediction reliant as well. Lycanroc is a better Sand Rush sweeper than this garbage.

0D60BE5A-0A03-4EA1-8D8B-98BDB2C443B5.png
C+ > B-: I said this a million times but Tang is still solid. Spreads status, Knocks, soft checks a handful of things. Also great on teams that use Washtom as their bulky water, leaving them more open to Shifu and Chomp. Also a great partner with Washtom + breaker as they slowly chip down teams. An example of this is SZ’s NP G-King Sand which was recently featured on Team of the Week.
https://pokepast.es/e6088ed5b02dd523

1E653018-EEF6-4A81-A6BF-E767D0D25F8A.png
C > C+: Somewhat underrated. Gar’s niche is being a middle ground between being faster than Kart and hitting harder than Pult. Crushes alot of common balance cores that are perfectly equipped at dealing with Pult. It threatens Clef and OHKOs Ttar/Hippo/Gastro with +2 Giga Drain after rocks, opening a ton of breathing room for Pult and/or Koko to wreck house. Koko is also a great partner for chipping down Lando/Tran for it. Give it a shot.
https://pokepast.es/dd89f5d2d4b33917

1176897F-997E-45C0-90B1-2747679EB09E.png
9EA447D4-F7D1-4531-BA6E-F14DE40251FB.png
C > C+: Sun is just cheese, but it is cheese that has several mus that it can exploit. Sun has made a few successful appearances in WCOP for its ability to exploit and dismantle many defensive structures while also doing great vs stall, another mu fisher. Being the slowest weather settler means it will always win the weather 1v1, and BP, Plume, and Toxic means it beats opposing weather setters as well.

955898D3-2B17-452E-8F65-0AB93A04B96C.png
C- > C: Appreciates the influx of Koko, Clef, Shifu. Spreads para and sleep while being able to pivot into Pult. It is also fat enough to live Torn Hurricane and DiB at full. This thing has many good traits while having enough to at least distinguish itself from the competition, it is a crime that its in C- with fucking Zarude.

BE7D867D-A9D3-4ED1-909C-7D0CC649B3D6.jpeg
C- > UR: No. Rilla is back, Washtom is everywhere, and it has a fake defensive niche. Weav removes its berry while Shifu does like 30 to it. You want a slow water type to break shit with, you got Daunt. Caso Cerrado.

B6001C84-6626-41E5-9225-5626984C71E7.jpeg
C- > UR: If 6-0ing stall was a reason to be in the vr, then we might as well bring Zard back to the vr.

55A31A17-E1CD-41F2-90ED-D9EF4D3E83E0.jpeg
C- > UR: Who uses this, and what does it even do anymore? Offensive sets are stone walled by Slowking, Washtom, and Gastro. Flame Body was a good reason to use it but Volc and Tran have this while not being complete garbage. Its a shitty defogger that loses to everything except Tran who it also loses to if it has Toxic. Can we abandon this thing already? I already can tell one person might say “but I 6-0d my little brother in the 1100s with it”

1735FFF0-1A7F-492F-B160-99A36D11CA5F.jpeg
C- > C: Bring it back up, its not good but it has a few things that give it somewhat of a reason to use it over Volcanion. For instance, it 2HKOs the bulky waters that Volcanion struggles to break past (Wash/Gastro/Slowking). It also checks Weav, Shifu, Tran, and Buzz more reliably, with the added bonus of not being weak to rocks. Providing it even more setup opportunities than Volcanion.

4FA31192-012B-4AE3-9FBC-208A893BECC7.jpeg
C- > UR: Webs are dead and they have been for months now. Not just boots, but also its abusers (I.E: Bisharp, Gzap, Nidoking) have gotten worse as a result of their checks Buzz, Zapdos, and Gastro becoming more frequent place. If I wanted to use an anti HO style, I’d resort to Rain or even the mu fishy asf Trick Room. Shuckle itself also just dies to Shifu and Melm.

EF90151D-ABA1-4D5E-A010-82CE1C9C4890.jpeg
: C- > UR: L
 
I'm not even active as a spectator, but :Tyranitar: climb?
This thing has its usable niches like the aforementioned Blacephalon, Volcarona and etc checks but suffers so much in the long run without solid recovery (except Rest and Leftovers in defensive sets). Aside from really creepy coverage and utility, but I guess I'm obligated to team up with Omari P here and say that even Terrakion can be a top offensive threat, whatever the laugh reactions cost me. (At the end of the day it doesn't matter, Stone Edge won't hit the target anyway.)
But it's slow as hell unable to pass Tornadus-T and Weavile even with Scarf.
Anything in this metagame learns Body Press and others Weathers have gained more tools making the contest more balanced and fair.
World Cup replays? https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-632665
All I need to see is a team known for months or maybe over a year, with 4 weaknesses to Rock and no resistance playing comfortably against Tyranitar, who encountered terrible placement conditions and should have done more than he did if he was worthy of A-.

TL,DR: Tyranitar has unique traits that give it viable niches, but it has aged poorly and A- is a slight exaggeration, take Excadrill along, without Z-Moves and Flinches this mole is just a mole.

Edit: Agreed with last post mainly about UR Shuckle.
 
Last edited:
Blastoise and Venusaur vibing in the OU VR​
Anyways, some of the sub-ranks need some cleaning

View attachment 433563 A- > A: Proven time and time to be an excellent glue mon that also doubles as a wincon and rain check. It fills many holes these spike stacking BOs struggle with. It is also one of the best anti-cheese mon. Covering mus like HO, rain, and sun. It doesn’t appreciate the upstick of sand, but it appreciates the increased dominance of some of its partners like Taunt Shifu, Melm, and Spikes via Skarm which all do amazing at crippling its checks.

View attachment 433564 A- > A: One of the best bulky waters in the tier rn. Its defensive capabilities are busted, checking more than half of the tier in one slot while having very few things that can OHKO it while switching in safely. Rilla and Ferro both fear Scald burns. The lack of rocks is easily made up by the fact that Tran and Clef are both rockers and great partners for it. Gastro already rose but I feel like it needs to go higher.

View attachment 433566 B > B-: Still solid on HO but we have seen slightly less appearences from it. Washtom usage is at an all time high. Rilla is making a comeback, also has trouble with setting up on balance builds without Lando/Chomp, leading to issues with inconsistently. Plus it was ranked a little too high in the first place.

View attachment 433567 B > C+: Rarely ever actually sweeps, needs SE to hit Zap, leaving it vulnerable to status. Also not helping that Clef invests in more physD these days in response to Weav, and ofc Big Bird. It is more worth using some else on a slot than using something as inconsistent as Lucha.

View attachment 433571B > B-: Demon Mew has only gotten more inconsistent with Ttar and Weav, along with the ghosts easily 2HKOing it even after a CP. Also doesn’t like fast mons with Taunt or Toxic like Torn or Koko. Lead sets are prob its best rn, but HO teams have gravitated to more durable and immediately threatening rockers like Chomp or Balloon Tran. Utility sets don’t check much defensively and suffers from 4MSS, while being outclassed by other utility mons. There has been some experimentation with NP Vacuum Wave, but they tend to not go far.

View attachment 433574 B > B+: Rain is at its peak rn, and Toad is almost as important to rain as Peli/Barra/Ferro. Not only is it threatening on its own, but is an a electric immunity, and lures alot of anti-rain measures cause its coverage is nuts (Knot for Washtom, Slowbro, and Gastro) (Icy Wind for Dnite and Rilla) (Focus Miss for Ferro). Which is important rn since there are many of those are high in usage rn. Daunt returning to exploit the balance teams that are more frequently used also increases Toad’s likelihood of cleaning.

View attachment 433575 B > B+: Skarm is great rn. Being a spike setter that doesn’t fear spikes and can stay alive in the long term grants it a niche over Ferro and established itself as a staple on spike stacking Balance teams that are all over WCOP. Plus it punishes defoggers with Toxic or strong BP. All of this while checking Weav, Shifu, Ttar, Chomp, Kart, Drill, and even Buzzwole. Toxic and BP are also annoying to switch into for BO teams.

View attachment 433577C+ > C: Not having a good time at all. Can’t touch the rising Hippo and Gastro at all. Sand teams have gotten less reliant on sand abusers to function, with Drill usually being the one sand rusher on the team. Very prediction reliant as well. Lycanroc is a better Sand Rush sweeper than this garbage.

View attachment 433578C+ > B-: I said this a million times but Tang is still solid. Spreads status, Knocks, soft checks a handful of things. Also great on teams that use Washtom as their bulky water, leaving them more open to Shifu and Chomp. Also a great partner with Washtom + breaker as they slowly chip down teams. An example of this is SZ’s NP G-King Sand which was recently featured on Team of the Week.
https://pokepast.es/e6088ed5b02dd523

View attachment 433583C > C+: Somewhat underrated. Gar’s niche is being a middle ground between being faster than Kart and hitting harder than Pult. Crushes alot of common balance cores that are perfectly equipped at dealing with Pult. It threatens Clef and OHKOs Ttar/Hippo/Gastro with +2 Giga Drain after rocks, opening a ton of breathing room for Pult and/or Koko to wreck house. Koko is also a great partner for chipping down Lando/Tran for it. Give it a shot.
https://pokepast.es/dd89f5d2d4b33917

View attachment 433594View attachment 433595C > C+: Sun is just cheese, but it is cheese that has several mus that it can exploit. Sun has made a few successful appearances in WCOP for its ability to exploit and dismantle many defensive structures while also doing great vs stall, another mu fisher. Being the slowest weather settler means it will always win the weather 1v1, and BP, Plume, and Toxic means it beats opposing weather setters as well.

View attachment 433614C- > C: Appreciates the influx of Koko, Clef, Shifu. Spreads para and sleep while being able to pivot into Pult. It is also fat enough to live Torn Hurricane and DiB at full. This thing has many good traits while having enough to at least distinguish itself from the competition, it is a crime that its in C- with fucking Zarude.

View attachment 433615C- > UR: No. Rilla is back, Washtom is everywhere, and it has a fake defensive niche. Weav removes its berry while Shifu does like 30 to it. You want a slow water type to break shit with, you got Daunt. Caso Cerrado.

View attachment 433617C- > UR: If 6-0ing stall was a reason to be in the vr, then we might as well bring Zard back to the vr.

View attachment 433622C- > UR: Who uses this, and what does it even do anymore? Offensive sets are stone walled by Slowking, Washtom, and Gastro. Flame Body was a good reason to use it but Volc and Tran have this while not being complete garbage. Its a shitty defogger that loses to everything except Tran who it also loses to if it has Toxic. Can we abandon this thing already? I already can tell one person might say “but I 6-0d my little brother in the 1100s with it”

View attachment 433624C- > C: Bring it back up, its not good but it has a few things that give it somewhat of a reason to use it over Volcanion. For instance, it 2HKOs the bulky waters that Volcanion struggles to break past (Wash/Gastro/Slowking). It also checks Weav, Shifu, Tran, and Buzz more reliably, with the added bonus of not being weak to rocks. Providing it even more setup opportunities than Volcanion.

View attachment 433628C- > UR: Webs are dead and they have been for months now. Not just boots, but also its abusers (I.E: Bisharp, Gzap, Nidoking) have gotten worse as a result of their checks Buzz, Zapdos, and Gastro becoming more frequent place. If I wanted to use an anti HO style, I’d resort to Rain or even the mu fishy asf Trick Room. Shuckle itself also just dies to Shifu and Melm.

View attachment 433640: C- > UR: L
I gotta disagree with Hax going to unranked. It does more than just having a great stall MU, it also avoids the ohko from weavs ice shard from full, as well as rilla's glide.
 
:zarude: C- to UR
As time goes on, the reasons to use these Pokemon become less and less apparent.

I feel like the reasons as to why this pokemon is not used at all have been aparent for a long while now:
  • No usage in SPL
  • No usage in WCoP thus far
  • No usage on ladder. Number 150 for April and 160 for May
  • A ghost resist that can't switch on any of the ghosts safely. If you are exclusively looking for a switch in on a hard read there's Weavile.
  • A water resist that can't switch on any of the waters.
  • A pokemon that is supposed to pressure fat teams (and it might do it on paper) but that struggles vs torn, buzzwole, tang, una clef (with the standard bu set), and even trades with helmet skarm.
This mon already went from C+ to C and now to C-, but it has been well deserved of UR for a long while now.
 
I'm not even active as a spectator, but :Tyranitar: climb?
This thing has its usable niches like the aforementioned Blacephalon, Volcarona and etc checks but suffers so much in the long run without solid recovery (except Rest and Leftovers in defensive sets). Aside from really creepy coverage and utility, but I guess I'm obligated to team up with Omari P here and say that even Terrakion can be a top offensive threat, whatever the laugh reactions cost me. (At the end of the day it doesn't matter, Stone Edge won't hit the target anyway.)
But it's slow as hell unable to pass Tornadus-T and Weavile even with Scarf.
Anything in this metagame learns Body Press and others Weathers have gained more tools making the contest more balanced and fair.
World Cup replays? https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-632665
All I need to see is a team known for months or maybe over a year, with 4 weaknesses to Rock and no resistance playing comfortably against Tyranitar, who encountered terrible placement conditions and should have done more than he did if he was worthy of A-.

TL,DR: Tyranitar has unique traits that give it viable niches, but it has aged poorly and A- is a slight exaggeration, take Excadrill along, without Z-Moves and Flinches this mole is just a mole.

Edit: Agreed with last post mainly about UR Shuckle.
You can list flaws of a pokemon and make it sound bad without even addressing how metagame trends and top threats+ teams deal with it. You yourself have said you aren't even a spectator so why bother?

What are common (and good) mons that run body press and can switch into Ttar and beat it? Its best set is CB anyway, defensive sets are passive and bad

Also, why didn't you analyze the team that beat Ttar and mention how exactly they played around it? (Which if they couldn't it'd probably be pretty OP anyway). It feels disingenuous to just list things without backing them up. The sand core being good in this current phase of the metagame is not coming from nowhere. Maybe watch the numerous WCoP games where ExcaTtar succeeds lol. No one is saying they're S tier of course
 
I'm not even active as a spectator, but :Tyranitar: climb?
This thing has its usable niches like the aforementioned Blacephalon, Volcarona and etc checks but suffers so much in the long run without solid recovery (except Rest and Leftovers in defensive sets). Aside from really creepy coverage and utility, but I guess I'm obligated to team up with Omari P here and say that even Terrakion can be a top offensive threat, whatever the laugh reactions cost me. (At the end of the day it doesn't matter, Stone Edge won't hit the target anyway.)
But it's slow as hell unable to pass Tornadus-T and Weavile even with Scarf.
Anything in this metagame learns Body Press and others Weathers have gained more tools making the contest more balanced and fair.
World Cup replays? https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-632665
All I need to see is a team known for months or maybe over a year, with 4 weaknesses to Rock and no resistance playing comfortably against Tyranitar, who encountered terrible placement conditions and should have done more than he did if he was worthy of A-.

TL,DR: Tyranitar has unique traits that give it viable niches, but it has aged poorly and A- is a slight exaggeration, take Excadrill along, without Z-Moves and Flinches this mole is just a mole.

Edit: Agreed with last post mainly about UR Shuckle.
HARD disagree.

Banded T-tar is both an incredible offensive presense, and a very nice special sponge. Eats up an abundance of special hits from all sorts of things. Especially with the downfall of NP Torn, Torn outspeeding doesn't matter when it barely ever runs Focus Blast. Low Kick Weavile is a slight worry, but it cannot swap into any move T-tar dishes out, and instead needs a safe switch in. That safe switch in costs you a life because even Slowbro doesn't want to be tanking hits from Banded T-tar.

On the topic of Body Press users, the main one T-tar would face is Ferrothorn. While Ferrothorn is a decent threat to T-tar, I've seen people adapt by using Fire Punch to smack a Ferrothorn before it gets a chance to respond.

I also would absolutely not pair T-Tar and Exca together like you would Pelipper and Barraskewda, or Torkoal and Venusaur because Tyranitar doesn't need Excadrill to function well, and with decent support can function extremely well without the need to think about Exca.

I believe Tyranitar absolutely deserves its place in A- as it has become a top offensive threat with wildly strong stone edges, and an abundance of good dark STABs to choose from.
 
I gotta disagree with Hax going to unranked. It does more than just having a great stall MU, it also avoids the ohko from weavs ice shard from full, as well as rilla's glide.
Neither of these OHKO Chomp behind veil. All the cool kids are running Lefties Rilla nowadays, which means no more OHKOing Chomp.

252+ Atk Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp in Grassy Terrain: 250-295 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

I don’t think the “isn’t 4x weak to Ice Shard” thing is a good tradeoff for the lackluster bulk and 0 defensive utility Hax has. Idt its a strong enough niche to justify it in the VR.

but I guess I'm obligated to team up with Omari P here and say that even Terrakion can be a top offensive threat, whatever the laugh reactions cost me.
Terrak is good, we need to stop pretending its not. Just gonna reference my earlier post right here.

View attachment 431267C > B-: Terrak is underrated, that is the hill I will die on. OHKOs the common physical walls of the tier after a boost and has the natural bulk to take a hit and get up an SD behind veil. It is great on Veil builds as it deletes Pex, Buzz, Skarm and Bro from the game so that Chomp/Kart/Cloy can go hard. Even without a boost, LO boosted Rock/Fighting stabs from its 129 base Atk still hurt. Rock Polish can also be used so it can sweep on its own. If you have any doubts about it, here are some calcs. Have a good day.

After an SD

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 370-437 (93.9 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 289-341 (86.5 - 102%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Landorus-Therian: 308-364 (80.6 - 95.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 455-538 (115.4 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Buzzwole: 281-331 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 302-356 (99.3 - 117.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 530-624 (148.4 - 174.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO



Without an SD

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 187-220 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 105-125 (30.7 - 36.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 253-298 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 269-317 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 220-261 (52.3 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 151-179 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Buzzwole: 142-168 (40 - 47.3%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
Last edited:
Terrak is good, we need to stop pretending it's not. Just gonna reference my earlier post right here.
I know I know, I shouldn't be feeding into this, but I'm just gonna sum up everything I've heard before on why Terrakion doesn't quite cut it and leave it at that:

Terrakion is a very weird mon because it's a setup sweeper with the frailty of a choiced sweeper. Other mons with similar bulk can get away with being big threats because they don't need to set up, (Blacephalon or Dragapult), or are at least bulky enough on one side to take those specific hits, (Volcarona specially, Kartana physically). Terrakion is this weird middle ground that doesn't work. Without boosts Terrakion can't break hard enough, and it doesn't quite have the bulk to stand up to things. Its weaknesses mean common priority like Rillas Grassy Glide or Daunt/Urshifus Aqua Jets means revenge killing Terrakion is a lot easier than it is for many other sweepers who can at least bulk one of those hits.

I would say it's playstyle is nearly identical of Blaziken, huge amount of power, great setup potential, but then gets absolutely wiped if it gets hit. Blaziken can't efficiently run rampant with SD sets because it just isn't bulky enough, and neither can Terrakion, but at least Blaziken resists Grassy Glide. This isn't helped by the fact that they both chip themselves using Life Orb, which they need to beat certain things. Honestly, I wonder why people still use Life Orb on things, it sucks in the current state of Pokemon. The reason why Blaziken is B, and Terrakion is C is because of Blaziken's speed boost. Blaziken can use things like Protect, or force a swap to gain massive speed to not have to worry about getting outsped. Terrakion is stuck at 346, meaning it gets outsped by Kartana, who can wipe it off the face of Unova with Smart Strike, Leaf Blade, or Sacred Sword.

With the correct support Terrakion is absolutely a physical MONSTER, but the fact that it requires the help it does puts it down in the C ranks with others like Conk, Gengar, and the Latis.
 

Baloor

Tigers Management
is a Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
PUPL Champion
I've been absent from this thread for a while due to it usually just being an echo chamber or arguing for bad mons to be ranked/risen but with people already making nom essays immediately after the World Cup slate (for some reason?) I feel inclined to responded as I feel this one post jumps the gun on a lot of stuff in particular and I really disagree with most of the post.


Blastoise and Venusaur vibing in the OU VR​
Anyways, some of the sub-ranks need some cleaning

View attachment 433563 A- > A: Proven time and time to be an excellent glue mon that also doubles as a wincon and rain check. It fills many holes these spike stacking BOs struggle with. It is also one of the best anti-cheese mon. Covering mus like HO, rain, and sun. It doesn’t appreciate the upstick of sand, but it appreciates the increased dominance of some of its partners like Taunt Shifu, Melm, and Spikes via Skarm which all do amazing at crippling its checks.
this is fine, shouldve risen.

View attachment 433564 A- > A: One of the best bulky waters in the tier rn. Its defensive capabilities are busted, checking more than half of the tier in one slot while having very few things that can OHKO it while switching in safely. Rilla and Ferro both fear Scald burns. The lack of rocks is easily made up by the fact that Tran and Clef are both rockers and great partners for it. Gastro already rose but I feel like it needs to go higher.
this nom is incredibly pointless. gastro is a mon thats viability is a reaction to what's popular at the moment, its a mu "slug". by the time next slate comes around we have no idea what that meta will look like and if it. this has happened a few times this gen with slug already where it rises in popularity due to popular trends, meta adapts, gastro falls. gastro is good right now but I wouldnt even say its A good even. trends that gastro checks are already starting to run techs for it, freeze dry zolt, pwhip toad, giga volc. this is to take nothing away from gastros current viability but two sub ranks for something that has a history of fluctuating in popularity is way too much at the moment and should be revisited in a few months.

View attachment 433566 B > B-: Still solid on HO but we have seen slightly less appearences from it. Washtom usage is at an all time high. Rilla is making a comeback, also has trouble with setting up on balance builds without Lando/Chomp, leading to issues with inconsistently. Plus it was ranked a little too high in the first place.
this is fine, though its less of a rilla/tom issue and its more of melmetal and urshifu being so good problem.

View attachment 433567 B > C+: Rarely ever actually sweeps, needs SE to hit Zap, leaving it vulnerable to status. Also not helping that Clef invests in more physD these days in response to Weav, and ofc Big Bird. It is more worth using some else on a slot than using something as inconsistent as Lucha.
too extreme of a drop. bos with zap/clef are a issue yes but still a alright offense option. noticeably better than anything in C+ and gets some good mus vs other offenses and stuff like rilla.

View attachment 433571B > B-: Demon Mew has only gotten more inconsistent with Ttar and Weav, along with the ghosts easily 2HKOing it even after a CP. Also doesn’t like fast mons with Taunt or Toxic like Torn or Koko. Lead sets are prob its best rn, but HO teams have gravitated to more durable and immediately threatening rockers like Chomp or Balloon Tran. Utility sets don’t check much defensively and suffers from 4MSS, while being outclassed by other utility mons. There has been some experimentation with NP Vacuum Wave, but they tend to not go far.
no strong feelings about this because its a toss up. spikes utility sets are dick. cp has hard time setting up vs ghosts but with there being "less" dragapult atm and blace being relatively exploitable if with the proper support this can have get some really good match ups. Body Press sets have come around to slap the ttar/weavile teams. Getting taunted by urshifu/torn or toxic'd by koko/torn really sucks but this thing is low B ranks for a reason. random offensive sets are incredibly fun but are more of a ladder thing than something tournament level consistent. don't really care where this ends up because I hate this mon but I wanted to elaborate more on mews current state.

View attachment 433574 B > B+: Rain is at its peak rn, and Toad is almost as important to rain as Peli/Barra/Ferro. Not only is it threatening on its own, but is an a electric immunity, and lures alot of anti-rain measures cause its coverage is nuts (Knot for Washtom, Slowbro, and Gastro) (Icy Wind for Dnite and Rilla) (Focus Miss for Ferro). Which is important rn since there are many of those are high in usage rn. Daunt returning to exploit the balance teams that are more frequently used also increases Toad’s likelihood of cleaning.
agree

View attachment 433575 B > B+: Skarm is great rn. Being a spike setter that doesn’t fear spikes and can stay alive in the long term grants it a niche over Ferro and established itself as a staple on spike stacking Balance teams that are all over WCOP. Plus it punishes defoggers with Toxic or strong BP. All of this while checking Weav, Shifu, Ttar, Chomp, Kart, Drill, and even Buzzwole. Toxic and BP are also annoying to switch into for BO teams.
Okay this one is completely opinionated on my end because skarm has seen some decent success in World Cup but I'm still not convinced that Skarm is worthy of rise. Sets without ID have a hard time keeping pressure in the long term but without toxic you lose out on checking buzzwole, lando etc... Toxic is without a doubt better than ID but without ID you can end up overwhelmed pretty easily in games where skarm has to check more than one mon + lando while also trying to set up spikes because you just cant pressure shit. Skarm has the problem where on paper its a great role compression but in game its tasked with way more than its actually capable of doing. I think B is fine. [/quote]

View attachment 433577C+ > C: Not having a good time at all. Can’t touch the rising Hippo and Gastro at all. Sand teams have gotten less reliant on sand abusers to function, with Drill usually being the one sand rusher on the team. Very prediction reliant as well. Lycanroc is a better Sand Rush sweeper than this garbage.
I think zolt is worse than excadrill for sure but zolt is actually not bad as a mu fish sometimes. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-634574 see this world cup game where suapah got the exact type of mu im talking about. BO teams with ground lando/chomp is where this thing thrives. its decently bulky and its typing isnt bad either. functions fine as a C+ mon.

View attachment 433578C+ > B-: I said this a million times but Tang is still solid. Spreads status, Knocks, soft checks a handful of things. Also great on teams that use Washtom as their bulky water, leaving them more open to Shifu and Chomp. Also a great partner with Washtom + breaker as they slowly chip down teams. An example of this is SZ’s NP G-King Sand which was recently featured on Team of the Week.
https://pokepast.es/e6088ed5b02dd523
better amoongus, worse everything else. that should explain where i stand on tang.

View attachment 433583C > C+: Somewhat underrated. Gar’s niche is being a middle ground between being faster than Kart and hitting harder than Pult. Crushes alot of common balance cores that are perfectly equipped at dealing with Pult. It threatens Clef and OHKOs Ttar/Hippo/Gastro with +2 Giga Drain after rocks, opening a ton of breathing room for Pult and/or Koko to wreck house. Koko is also a great partner for chipping down Lando/Tran for it. Give it a shot.
https://pokepast.es/dd89f5d2d4b33917
nah this thing is bad. on paper its really nice but in practice you always wish you had blace/pult/aegi and you just get forced out by everything. I've done extensive testing with this mon and the best set I found was scarf trick+np but that is a super big fish and you always feel like its a waste of a slot.

View attachment 433594View attachment 433595C > C+: Sun is just cheese, but it is cheese that has several mus that it can exploit. Sun has made a few successful appearances in WCOP for its ability to exploit and dismantle many defensive structures while also doing great vs stall, another mu fisher. Being the slowest weather settler means it will always win the weather 1v1, and BP, Plume, and Toxic means it beats opposing weather setters as well.
okay i do like sun personally but im not going to pretend its good. it loses to basically every offensive team in the meta and its one good mu is vs people who just spam the shit out of fat or people who cannot pilot rain. even then there is better fishes for fat spammers in tier (rain covers fat and offense). C is fine, these two are a fun pick when youre bored but just outclassed as a fish into their one good mu.

View attachment 433614C- > C: Appreciates the influx of Koko, Clef, Shifu. Spreads para and sleep while being able to pivot into Pult. It is also fat enough to live Torn Hurricane and DiB at full. This thing has many good traits while having enough to at least distinguish itself from the competition, it is a crime that its in C- with fucking Zarude.
worse tangrowth

View attachment 433624C- > C: Bring it back up, its not good but it has a few things that give it somewhat of a reason to use it over Volcanion. For instance, it 2HKOs the bulky waters that Volcanion struggles to break past (Wash/Gastro/Slowking). It also checks Weav, Shifu, Tran, and Buzz more reliably, with the added bonus of not being weak to rocks. Providing it even more setup opportunities than Volcanion.
ive seen people try this and im just not convinced. seems outclassed by other waters, doesnt get many set up chances and wears itself down with sub a ton. if people start having more success with this maybe we can rise it but right now I am not sold.

i wanted to do the unrank noms last because I am really tired of people in this thread randomly trying to unrank shit just because they want to "clean up the lower ranks" or some kind of excuse like that. C- is C- for a reason and is reserved for relatively bad mons that while are "bad" do have a functionable niche in OU. That said I do somewhat "agree" with two of these.

View attachment 433615C- > UR: No. Rilla is back, Washtom is everywhere, and it has a fake defensive niche. Weav removes its berry while Shifu does like 30 to it. You want a slow water type to break shit with, you got Daunt. Caso Cerrado.
I defended azu a few months ago as it did have a decent niche then but right now it just gets 0 set up opportunities even under veil and +6 jet isnt as scary as it was back when I defended it. I still wouldnt unrank this personally as I see it being fine again in a few months but if VR Council is desperate to unrank shit then this can go atm.

View attachment 433617C- > UR: If 6-0ing stall was a reason to be in the vr, then we might as well bring Zard back to the vr.
I think this a awful point as hax for one is way better and more consistent than charizard ever was, for two haxorus is only really outclassed by one (but great) mon in chomp while zard was fighting for its life on every sun comp. Haxorus is fine in C-, its niche is solidified enough where there is no reason to unrank it. its a perfectly fine pick on HO if you want to use it. Band Sets are funny as fuck too.

View attachment 433622C- > UR: Who uses this, and what does it even do anymore? Offensive sets are stone walled by Slowking, Washtom, and Gastro. Flame Body was a good reason to use it but Volc and Tran have this while not being complete garbage. Its a shitty defogger that loses to everything except Tran who it also loses to if it has Toxic. Can we abandon this thing already? I already can tell one person might say “but I 6-0d my little brother in the 1100s with it”
yeah this is awful and idk why it wasnt removed two slates ago

View attachment 433628C- > UR: Webs are dead and they have been for months now. Not just boots, but also its abusers (I.E: Bisharp, Gzap, Nidoking) have gotten worse as a result of their checks Buzz, Zapdos, and Gastro becoming more frequent place. If I wanted to use an anti HO style, I’d resort to Rain or even the mu fishy asf Trick Room. Shuckle itself also just dies to Shifu and Melm.
im going to echo what I said last time. as long as webs itself is a playstyle that exists and used, shuckle should stay as its the only viable setter. webs are ass i'm not going to argue that they are good but from time to time you do see a webs team that picks up a win in a tournament or somebody is spamming it on ladder and not having the only setter ranked just does not make sense to me. its a legitimate fish that still does work, and while bad, it should stay. C- is C- for a reason man.

this guy is like bad but I still dont know why we want to unrank him. hes a shaky water resist and ghost resist that you'd only use if you wanted to zarude but sometimes he can be a threat to slower teams with the BU set and I have seen experimenting with scarf/band sets with uturn which can be a nightmare to switch into if you dont have a buzzwole. like hes not really consistent but I wouldnt say hes worthy of a unrank just because hes shaky into what hes suppose to check. we literally just ranked cobalion which supposedly checks weavile but its the worst weavile check I have ever seen in my life. zarude actually uses its typing defensively better than coba uses his. You can make the argument you cant compare the two because coba is a rock setter but thats pretty irrelevant to the point im making. I'd never slap coba or zarude onto a team unless I actually wanted to use them for some reason but the point is I dont think zarude is bad enough for a unrank and if we just ranked cobalion it doesnt make any sense to me to unrank a mon with similar-ish problems.

also when writing this I saw that people are talking about terrak again, and once again, terrak has not changed at all and theres nothing about it to warrant a rise. its still pretty meh guys.

more discussion about band ttar would be cool because I actually think its in a pretty good spot right now
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 7)

Top