If new DLC is really 2-3 weeks out (most people thought it'd be November), then I think any suspect test would be a waste of time since the entire meta will be shaken up as soon as it's over, like the next day. I think we all know my opinions on the timing of how things happened with all of that + Cinderace re-test so we won't get back into it, but the point is, if new DLC is about to drop in less than a month instead of November like we all thought, then nothing should be tested until we see how the meta shakes up. Tapus can totally transform this meta, especially with the new moves.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v6 (Usage stats in post #408)
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A community vote is a great idea, but I feel like it should only be done once we actually get the dlc. I think we're at a point that, if we do not get any info on crown tundra release this direct (doubtful but could happen), we're in this limbo where almost every day the dlc could have its date announced and the metagame shifted soon after, so even if the direct doesn't confirm anything, I think we'll just have to tolerate the metagame like this for a while.
For me, both feel a similar power level of restriction and I, had the dlc2 not existed, would have been fine with any of them being chosen for a suspect, as long as the other followed soon after. I do wonder how the tapus, the legends and the new galar birds (if theyre even viable haha) will affect the metagame for these two. I don't see toxapex dropping from A tier, but urshifu is a bit less stable for me, and with that context I think a toxapex suspect first would make more sense. Won't go deep into it as to not theorymon, who knows what's going to happen anyways
For me, both feel a similar power level of restriction and I, had the dlc2 not existed, would have been fine with any of them being chosen for a suspect, as long as the other followed soon after. I do wonder how the tapus, the legends and the new galar birds (if theyre even viable haha) will affect the metagame for these two. I don't see toxapex dropping from A tier, but urshifu is a bit less stable for me, and with that context I think a toxapex suspect first would make more sense. Won't go deep into it as to not theorymon, who knows what's going to happen anyways
I am defo agreeing that urshifu is busted. If you aren't using a fairy type, this thing can really break teams. Wicked blow prevents any defensive boosts from affecting the damage output, and, aside from huge defensive investments, only fairies can really take a wicked blow and threaten back, lucha being the one exception. Ursh's strong Stabs force a requirement to have defensive counterplay, lest you lose a mon to a rain of wicked blows.
Onto pex. A defensive behemoth, and hard to break. But, I feel that because it is a great wall for most of the top played pokemon in the format, it seems overpowered and broken. However, a lot of those are kept in check by not being able to break it. And a lot of these big sweepers dedicate a slot to checking it, or outright countering it. Like:
I also want to bring up Nat Dex OU's reasoning not to QB toxapex. While, yes, they have stronger counters and checks to it, it all boiled down to the fact its defensive counterplay options vs the formats big offensive threats (and being a universal wall) was invaluable.
TL;DR imo, ban ursh ss, don't ban pex
Onto pex. A defensive behemoth, and hard to break. But, I feel that because it is a great wall for most of the top played pokemon in the format, it seems overpowered and broken. However, a lot of those are kept in check by not being able to break it. And a lot of these big sweepers dedicate a slot to checking it, or outright countering it. Like:
- Psychic on Volcarona
- Zen headbutt on Cinderace (or an Electroball mixed Cinderace)
- Electroball on magearna
- High horsepower on SD rillaboom
I also want to bring up Nat Dex OU's reasoning not to QB toxapex. While, yes, they have stronger counters and checks to it, it all boiled down to the fact its defensive counterplay options vs the formats big offensive threats (and being a universal wall) was invaluable.
TL;DR imo, ban ursh ss, don't ban pex
Despite me agreeing that Pex isn't banworthy or quite as problematic as Urshifu, this is a bad way to go about it. Throughout Smogon tiering history, broken checking broken has never been a valid argument, and can cause a tier to become even worse then it already was. For example, SM UU remains king of "broken checking broken" tiers because people wanting Scizor to stay because we'd have to ban a lot of pokemon afterwards. A tier should strive to be as healthy and stable as possible, not barely "playable" because 1 broken pokemon checks 7 other broken pokemon.
Being relatively new to OU, I believe action should be taken on Urshifu-Single Strike. Building in the tier feels really restricting to other tiers, due to having to fit 2 urshifu answers that don't get crit away on a team, which generally implies something online the lines of Clef+Mandi, or Pex+Clef, Pex+Mandi, and so on. The OU metagame would really benefit from removing Urshifu, at least in my opinion. It's one of those pokemon where no matter how many answers to it your opp brings, its at least doing something or getting a kill. While it doesn't have nearly as much utility or defensive prowess like Magearna, the sheer power and ability to always be useful in a game seems unhealthy to me. Then again, I'm new to OU, so feel free to roast me to DLC 2. I'm thinking the best way to go is public suspect, but w/e.
As far as Toxapex is concerned, I believe its best to see how the metagame develops after the Urshufu issue is resolved. If it's still problematic a month or so after Urshifu is removed, then suspect it. If not, then move on to whatever is next. Anyways, thanks for tuning into my useless opinion.
Sounds like a good trade to me. If The Pex is the only thing keeping some mons from tearing the tier in half than those mons are probably an unhealthy presence even with Pex and should go. I can't speak as to whether that's actually true for Rilla or Volc or whoever but it's my perception that this tier tolerates a lot more stuff than it really should and it could benefit from bringing the hammer down faster on things that deserve it. At the very least, Urshifu.
DLC 2 is coming out on October 22. Gonna keep it honest chiefs, there isn't any reason to suspect either Urshifu or Toxapex at this point. Even if we do get rid of one of them, we'll enjoy having them gone for like 2 days before we get 100+ mons added to the tier. It just isn't worth the hassle in my eyes and i think we can tough out these next few weeks before we end up with a completely different metagame. I'll probably do a tier list like we did last DLC and post my thoughts about which incoming pokemon are going to be viable.
Not sure how I feel about Toxapex being broken. It's probably the best status spreader because whatever it can't burn it just puts on a timer with Toxic or Tspikes. Scald is the most annoying move because it recovers and regenerates all day so it gets plenty of opportunities to fish for a burn. 2 Scalds and it's 51% chance to land one. If I´m using HO I guess I just have to pray it doesn't get the burn on one of my switch ins or that the opponent doesn't use Toxapex as well as he should be. (ex: doesn't keep it healthy, you surprise it with a super effective move or you catch it with a Trick)
Whenever I'm using a more balanced team my go to is ALWAYS Clefable to take the Scald because I´m so paranoid and always assume it's going to land a burn. Then I use Teleport to get something in safely that can threaten Pex. That to me is unhealthy but still on the fence about it being broken or not. There's definitely counterplay available in the form of Aromatherapy and Heal Bell and Knock Off spam is still annoying but makes Pex way more manageable. Sometimes I also use Volcarona to Safeguard in order to get something in safely.
Urshifu I feel is a way more pressing issue as a well played one (a well played one meaning someone who knows what they're doing and not mid/low ladder) is really hard to play around. Both Bulk Up and CB are like equally viable. It just sucks when you're expecting CB only for it to BU on your switch. Clefable switch ins can be seen from a mile away and Urshifu can either play it safe and just go for Wicked Blow to test the waters as you switch into Clefable or just hit it with Iron Head right off the bat. What I'm saying is the Urshifu user is in more control because for the one using Clefable or Weezing they know they lose nothing by just going for Wicked Blow because Urshifu can just switch after anyway. Basically it's not a good idea to predict an Iron Head and stay in with something that's threatened by Urshifu's STABs. It's ability, speed tier and decent bulk are just icing on the cake but it´s those nearly unresisted 120 STAB moves that break Urshifu.
Whenever I'm using a more balanced team my go to is ALWAYS Clefable to take the Scald because I´m so paranoid and always assume it's going to land a burn. Then I use Teleport to get something in safely that can threaten Pex. That to me is unhealthy but still on the fence about it being broken or not. There's definitely counterplay available in the form of Aromatherapy and Heal Bell and Knock Off spam is still annoying but makes Pex way more manageable. Sometimes I also use Volcarona to Safeguard in order to get something in safely.
Urshifu I feel is a way more pressing issue as a well played one (a well played one meaning someone who knows what they're doing and not mid/low ladder) is really hard to play around. Both Bulk Up and CB are like equally viable. It just sucks when you're expecting CB only for it to BU on your switch. Clefable switch ins can be seen from a mile away and Urshifu can either play it safe and just go for Wicked Blow to test the waters as you switch into Clefable or just hit it with Iron Head right off the bat. What I'm saying is the Urshifu user is in more control because for the one using Clefable or Weezing they know they lose nothing by just going for Wicked Blow because Urshifu can just switch after anyway. Basically it's not a good idea to predict an Iron Head and stay in with something that's threatened by Urshifu's STABs. It's ability, speed tier and decent bulk are just icing on the cake but it´s those nearly unresisted 120 STAB moves that break Urshifu.
I disagree with testing Urshifu. The team structures to deal with it consist of the most commonly used mons in the tier. Those same team structures predate Urshifus release because they are broadly useful and cover most of the meta. Running Clef + Regen isn’t some heavy lift, this isn't P2 for Gen 6 Greninja. There has to be a best offensive mon in the tier, your failure to build with it in mind is your fault. It's really good, but I am just like are we really gonna do a suspect with less than a month before literally all of this discussion becomes 100% irrelevant?
Let's just ride the wave until October 22, testing a mon now is a gargantuan waste of time. I'd love to see something more experimental during this time instead (Item clause test, boots test, idk) so we actually get usable and actionable info/data out of the tail end of DLC 1.
Let's just ride the wave until October 22, testing a mon now is a gargantuan waste of time. I'd love to see something more experimental during this time instead (Item clause test, boots test, idk) so we actually get usable and actionable info/data out of the tail end of DLC 1.
If we're going to test something, let's test what's relevant. If you don't want a test before DLC 2, why suggest that we test Item clause or Boots Clause or some other special clause? I'm all for not testing until DLC 2, but if we're going to test it should be the mons that impact the meta, not an experimental clause (that admittedly would be kinda cool if the meta wasn't so messed up). Even if we did have an experimental test during this time (item clause, boots clause, Zamazenta-C test), it might be skewed in an unforeseen way because of the state of the meta. Needless to say the most likely outcomes is either an Urshifu/Pex test or no test at all.
On the topic of Urshifu.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UUXQY9UtPwcJHhZHc3Uu8jEyHYkXgtUG1cNcdVjftG8/edit?usp=sharing
Here is a list of all the pokemon in the game that can survive both 2 Close Combats and Wicked Blows. I was going to make a whole essay on how Urshifu has a whole repertoire of perfect and overlapping coverage that it doesn't even need to use, but then it would just be rehashing the same old points placed by much more knowledgeable posters.
This. Monky was right on the money with his 3 week prediction after annnouncement.
It makes no sense to test anything until DLC drops then. And when it does, I don't see Toxapex being an issue anymore. Urshifu we will need to see how the Tapus play out against it, but I don't think it will be so overbearing either. But it's all just theory - we have to actually see it in practice to fully evaluate it, at least for a few weeks.
Galarian Slowking looks very interesting. I think it will be more useful in Ubers though with its ability to eliminate stat changes, effectively nullifying your Dynamax stat boosts. But in OU, it can pressure Toxapex with literal PP Pressure with its sig move that appears to be a combination of Psychic + Spite. But we will see how everything plays out.
It only clears the stat changes of allies, unfortunately.
Ewwwww that's gross. Ok Regenerator + Toxapex pressure still good, but will probably drop to UU while Urshifu is still in the tier.
I know this isn't the place for theorymonning,, but if galarian Slowking gets block like the main slow line, then that + slack off + signature move will probably be a nice niche trapping thing for OU. Even if the mon switches out with U-turn or Teleport, it would have still taken damage and lost a little pp. If they're sturdy enough to withstand gSlowking's hits, they will lose pp. If it has infinite pp from something like growth, it will have to withstand gSlowking's hits. If it threatens gSlowking with a 3HKO, Slowking can always stay in, take a little pp off of an 8 pp move, then regen out.
Edit: Regieleki looks like a niche pick if it has a nice bp on its signature move.
Edit: Regieleki looks like a niche pick if it has a nice bp on its signature move.
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Everyone seems to be under the impression that if Urshifu is tested and banned before the DLC hits, that it would automatically be freed when the DLC drops, rendering the entire test moot.
Urshifu is perceived to be unhealthy for the tier because of its almost complete lack of defensive counterplay, to the extent that it constrains teambuilding when trying to fit one or multiple of its very few reliable checks onto a team. I hate to theorymon, but would the Pokemon we'd receive in the DLC change that in a significant manner? Would the addition of one or more defensive checks suddenly make Urshifu easier to handle to the point where it isn't problematic for the tier anymore? Alternatively, would the onslaught of offensive checks that would inevitably remain in the tier make defensive counterplay less of an absolute necessity? If you believe either of those things to be the case, then yes, why test it if it will shortly be unbanned and presumably stay that way. However, if the opposite is true - if the OU council feels that the tier hasn't changed substantially enough to warrant Urshifu being allowed back into the tier - then it would likely stay banned, and we would've waited three weeks for nothing when in that time, we could've tested and voted an unhealthy element out.
I mean, come on, give the council some credit here. They're not going to unban absolutely everything that seems even halfway reasonable just because we're getting 100 new Pokemon, a good chunk of which will immediately be sent to Ubers and never see the light of OU anyways. They're gonna see how the tier develops in the first few days or weeks and make choices of what seems reasonable to free and what to leave Ubers based on that. You could definitely argue for something like Melmetal, and maybe for things like Cinderace or even Magearna, but obviously unhealthy stuff like G-Darm or Kyurem-B are 100% not gonna be freed. Whether Urshifu fits in the former group or the latter one determines whether or not we should test it, and is a question that is better suited to be answered by someone more knowledgeable of the tier and of Pokemon in general than I.
Am I crazy for thinking this?
Urshifu is perceived to be unhealthy for the tier because of its almost complete lack of defensive counterplay, to the extent that it constrains teambuilding when trying to fit one or multiple of its very few reliable checks onto a team. I hate to theorymon, but would the Pokemon we'd receive in the DLC change that in a significant manner? Would the addition of one or more defensive checks suddenly make Urshifu easier to handle to the point where it isn't problematic for the tier anymore? Alternatively, would the onslaught of offensive checks that would inevitably remain in the tier make defensive counterplay less of an absolute necessity? If you believe either of those things to be the case, then yes, why test it if it will shortly be unbanned and presumably stay that way. However, if the opposite is true - if the OU council feels that the tier hasn't changed substantially enough to warrant Urshifu being allowed back into the tier - then it would likely stay banned, and we would've waited three weeks for nothing when in that time, we could've tested and voted an unhealthy element out.
I mean, come on, give the council some credit here. They're not going to unban absolutely everything that seems even halfway reasonable just because we're getting 100 new Pokemon, a good chunk of which will immediately be sent to Ubers and never see the light of OU anyways. They're gonna see how the tier develops in the first few days or weeks and make choices of what seems reasonable to free and what to leave Ubers based on that. You could definitely argue for something like Melmetal, and maybe for things like Cinderace or even Magearna, but obviously unhealthy stuff like G-Darm or Kyurem-B are 100% not gonna be freed. Whether Urshifu fits in the former group or the latter one determines whether or not we should test it, and is a question that is better suited to be answered by someone more knowledgeable of the tier and of Pokemon in general than I.
Am I crazy for thinking this?
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Aaand I'm back with a tier list of where i think the crown tundra pokemon will end up. While not all of these are confirmed, the data mines have proven to be accurate so far with the hidden ability capsules and what not, so the list I'm using is the one from the data mine, which has lined up so far with what is revealed. I'll explain some of the most controversial choices below, these pokemon were tiered based on their position last gen and whether any changes benefitted or hurt them.
First of all, assume I'm talking about the therian forms in the case of the genies. As you can see, tornadus "therian", tapu koko, tapu lele, and kartana are all in ubers when they start out in OU. My view is that these 4 in particular should be quick banned at the start of dlc due to how powerful they'll be. Lele kills everything with expanded force, koko has an actual physicals movepool, nasty plot+ boots +u-turn+ regenerator breaks torn-t, and kartana was already a controversial mon but now it has 2 great partners to set grassy terrain to abuse powerful grassy glides. I hope action gets taken on these 4 at the start and not waste time with individual suspects for each of them. Once we clear all the broken stuff away, if enough demand is for one of them to be retested then that can happen.
OU regains staples like garchomp, lando-t, zapdos, heatran, tapu fini, volcanion and victini. All will have a solid place in the metagame and will likely be S or any of the A ranks. We also get stuff like boots dragonite, buzzwole which is the ultimate urshifu counter, and other neat things like latios, xurkitree, salamence, and both thundurus forms, which I feel will either be OU but likely UUBL, I could be wrong though and maybe one of these would actually be fine in UU, so we'll have to see. While likely to be UU, Moltres with boots will still be very solid in OU, taking the role as a defensive fire type and countering tier rulers like rilla. Swampert also looks to be viable in OU, being a solid physical wall that appreciates having grasses removed, which will be very possible with the DLC.
Also, I think celesteela and tapu bulu might be UU this generation. Celesteela competes too much with corviknight as corv seems to be the better steel defogger shown by nat dex, so cele is likely to be UU. Bulu faces competition from rilla and according to nat dex rilla seems to be the better option, but things are different here and either rilla or bulu will likely reside in UU as one edges out the other.
Finally, I'll examine how urshifu and toxapex will look after these changes. Koko and lele destroy pex, but they're arguably banworthy so we need some other things to be pex. We get stuff like thundrus, xurkitree, chomp, and zapdos to help neuter pex a bit. Still, with the right partners, pex is going to be a solid force, even after dlc 2. I don't think it'll be banworthy then, but I may be wrong and pex will still be too strong as the meta develops. As for urshifu, we get more options to deal with it like buzzswole, phys def rocky helmet zapdos, tapu fini and torn t if it doesn't get banned. We have strong special attackers like blacephalon that can punish chocie locked shifu while dual wingbeat mence and dragonite looks to be solid. Once again, depending on how the meta develops, urshifu may still be a problem.
Overall, here my thoughts about how OU will be affected by the DLC. I encourage others to give their own speculations about big changes that will happen in the meta. I think my last major post before dlc will talk about which pokemon are likely to drop from OU and be outclassed by the new mons coming in.
First of all, assume I'm talking about the therian forms in the case of the genies. As you can see, tornadus "therian", tapu koko, tapu lele, and kartana are all in ubers when they start out in OU. My view is that these 4 in particular should be quick banned at the start of dlc due to how powerful they'll be. Lele kills everything with expanded force, koko has an actual physicals movepool, nasty plot+ boots +u-turn+ regenerator breaks torn-t, and kartana was already a controversial mon but now it has 2 great partners to set grassy terrain to abuse powerful grassy glides. I hope action gets taken on these 4 at the start and not waste time with individual suspects for each of them. Once we clear all the broken stuff away, if enough demand is for one of them to be retested then that can happen.
OU regains staples like garchomp, lando-t, zapdos, heatran, tapu fini, volcanion and victini. All will have a solid place in the metagame and will likely be S or any of the A ranks. We also get stuff like boots dragonite, buzzwole which is the ultimate urshifu counter, and other neat things like latios, xurkitree, salamence, and both thundurus forms, which I feel will either be OU but likely UUBL, I could be wrong though and maybe one of these would actually be fine in UU, so we'll have to see. While likely to be UU, Moltres with boots will still be very solid in OU, taking the role as a defensive fire type and countering tier rulers like rilla. Swampert also looks to be viable in OU, being a solid physical wall that appreciates having grasses removed, which will be very possible with the DLC.
Also, I think celesteela and tapu bulu might be UU this generation. Celesteela competes too much with corviknight as corv seems to be the better steel defogger shown by nat dex, so cele is likely to be UU. Bulu faces competition from rilla and according to nat dex rilla seems to be the better option, but things are different here and either rilla or bulu will likely reside in UU as one edges out the other.
Finally, I'll examine how urshifu and toxapex will look after these changes. Koko and lele destroy pex, but they're arguably banworthy so we need some other things to be pex. We get stuff like thundrus, xurkitree, chomp, and zapdos to help neuter pex a bit. Still, with the right partners, pex is going to be a solid force, even after dlc 2. I don't think it'll be banworthy then, but I may be wrong and pex will still be too strong as the meta develops. As for urshifu, we get more options to deal with it like buzzswole, phys def rocky helmet zapdos, tapu fini and torn t if it doesn't get banned. We have strong special attackers like blacephalon that can punish chocie locked shifu while dual wingbeat mence and dragonite looks to be solid. Once again, depending on how the meta develops, urshifu may still be a problem.
Overall, here my thoughts about how OU will be affected by the DLC. I encourage others to give their own speculations about big changes that will happen in the meta. I think my last major post before dlc will talk about which pokemon are likely to drop from OU and be outclassed by the new mons coming in.
Ah, yes the Tapus. Dear Lord, the Tapus.
Let me just start by saying that I know I’m jumping the gun a bit here, but given how long it can take to get the suspect process started, I thought it might be beneficial to start this conversation ASAP. Namely, we need to talk about the Tapus; they are confirmed to be returning with Crown Tundra, and with a few new movepool additions. However, while it has not been confirmed since they are tutor moves, it is highly likely that the guardians will get their respective terrain-enhanced moves. And if that’s the case, Koko, Lele and Bulu may all need to be banned.
Let’s start with Bulu: Rillaboom has proven itself to be one of the most defining offensive Pokemon is OU. Now, imagine a Rillaboom who has a secondary STAB and a superior anti-Steel move in Close Combat (as indicated by the TM/TR leaks), and you start to understand just how hard Bulu can smack the tier. And with the new addition of Grassy Glide, it also gets STAB priority in addition to its tremendous Wood Hammer. Band Bulu will probably be making serious headway, while LO sets are also viable with that fourth slot going to SD set up, since Glide, Play Rough and CC are the only 3 attacks it really needs. And yet, Bulu is actually the least problematic of those three guardians, and the only one where I'm not sold it'll be busted. (As for the competition with Rillaboom thing, I think it'll probably be Bulu goes offensive while Rilla falls back into a more support-centric role).
As for Koko, its new gift of Rising Voltage will be a godsend for its Specs set. Seriously, only a handful of mons that don’t resist Electric can actually afford to eat this (hell, a lot of mons that do resist are still 2HKOed by Voltage). That’s not all they have to worry about; Koko still has an adequate secondary STAB in Dazzling Gleam, still has Volt Switch for anything it doesn't 2HKO and, more importantly, still has Grass Knot, which can cut through most Ground types that seek to block that Voltage. Hippowdon, for instance, is soundly OHKOed by Specs Knot. Fortunately, there are plenty of mons that can counter special Koko- but here’s the thing: Koko can now viably run a physical set thanks to finally getting physical Fairy STAB in Play Rough and also getting the volatile Close Combat (again, as stated by the TM/TR leaks). With the power of Band, STABs + CC can clean up against a lot of mons, and just U-turn out of anything problematic. Or, Koko can always just slap on Brave Bird over U-turn, which soundly 2HKOs Amoonguss, Tangrowth, Bulu and Nidoking.
When you really look at Koko’s “counters”, it’s not as long a list as you’d think since most mons that counter one Choice-variant lose to the other variant. Hippowdon and Swampert blank physical but cannot take a Grass Knot; most of the mons that can weather special Koko fall to its physical coverage. Considering both physical and special, and doing calcs on every semi-relevant mon, I did find two definitive defensive answers: unfortunately, those answers are Cresselia and defensive Nidoqueen (and even Queen can occasionally be 2HKOed by BB), who are probably not going to be OU staples if their history is to be believed. And that’s just two of Koko’s possible sets: I haven’t even touched on the potential CM + 3 attacks set or fast screen setter. Koko isn’t broken just because Voltage is strong, but because it has a rather obscene level of versatility now that makes checking it a rather strenuous guessing game. And yet-
Despite what I, personally, will argue, there are arguments to be made that Koko and Bulu aren’t necessarily broken; that does not go for Lele at all. While Koko concerns me due to its versatility, Lele stands out as probably broken due to its sheer power. The power of Specs Expanding Force is absurd, even 2HKOing many mons that resist Psychic. In addition to its far greater power, Lele also differs from the existing Psychic setter Indeedee by virtue of having a secondary STAB that just so happens to be super effective on the one type that is immune to Expanding Force altogether, meaning most Dark types are not good switch-ins. Then again, depending on its coverage, almost nothing switches in on Specs Lele safely; Heatran is a good switch in if Lele doesn’t have Focus Blast. Aegislash and Jirachi can hold up if Lele doesn’t have Shadow Ball. Chansey and Blissey are immoveable if Lele doesn’t have Psyshock. Celesteela and specially defensive Corviknight work if Lele doesn’t carry Thunderbolt. You see the problem, right? Most mons you’d think would stand a chance are bodied by at least one of Lele’s coverage options. Sure, Cresselia and Bronzong can survive two Shadow Balls if they get lucky, and specially defensive Scizor is only 2HKOed by Expanding Force and Focus Blast some of the time, but can you really afford to take that chance? Plus, plenty of the “counters” I’ve listed can potentially be ruined by Trick. From all the research I’ve done, the only mon that is a guaranteed safe switch- in is- specially defensive Escavalier. Which still doesn’t like Trick.
This is what makes Lele so egregious to me: as you can tell by the number of “ifs” in my previous blurb, Specs Lele basically gets to pick and choose what its defensive answers are, which has often been cited as a banworthy trait. What about offense? Well, to highlight how little that means: Specs Dragapult can outspeed and OHKO unboosted Lele with Shadow Ball, but it absolutely cannot switch in- both Lele’s STABs and its own Shadow Ball eviscerate this thing. For an offensive mon to not be broken, it needs to have some form of defensive counterplay- even on paper, Specs Lele has almost none. Specs Lele probably can't sweep on its own, but it is more than capable of leaving a massive hole for its teammates to exploit. And that’s just one set; while Specs is the reason I say this thing is banworthy, it can just as easily run Scarf or be a Calm Mind sweeper. Ban this thing ASAP, please.
I guess I might as well mention Fini, briefly. Now, Fini is definitely not broken this gen; if anything, it actually got worse with the gen shift. Ironically, the Defog buff nerfed Fini since now it can’t clear hazards without also clearing its own terrain, aka its status shield. This shield was the main thing Fini did defensively in USUM; now, what we have is basically a defensive mon with no [confirmed] recovery outside Rest (which it can’t even use while its terrain is active) that can’t spread status against most mons and can't contribute to the hazards meta at all without actively hurting itself. I feel this will likely force Fini into a more offensive role, either as a bulky CM sweeper, Taunt stallbreaker or as a decent but not outstanding Specs user. Honestly, I would not be surprised if this thing ends up dipping to UU.
TL;DR
- Lele: broken AF.
- Koko: probably broken; just has too much versatility for its own good.
- Bulu: definitely a strong option, might be broken (might).
- Fini: GF, why do you hate this thing?
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While probably a hot take, i do not thing Bulu will be banworthy. The only notable things (so far) that Bulu has over Rillaboom is 5 more base points of attack (not too much), Close Combat (Superpower worked for Rillaboom anyways), and fairy typing + Stab play Rough.
Close Combat: Useful during a sweep, but Bulu's speed is even worse than Rilla's with no viable speed boosting move. Can be used sometimes to break past corviknight and ferro, but overall probably not too big an effect as others thought. I can't see Bulu sweeping too many offensive teams that have some sort of a grass resist, which is similar to Rilla, so I can't see this being sooo big as people think.
Fairy typing: might have a niche for living a hit from Urshifu-Dark if not banned by then, but in the end, just gives it weaknesses. For example, it dies even more to the rare poison move, and it loses Rillaboom's ability to counter Excadrill because it's weak to Iron Head and slower.
Play Rough: It's a secondary Stab, which in a vacuum is always nice, and it allows it to not be walled by Kommo-o and... Goodra? Yeah Fairy and Grass both are resisted by Steel, Fire, and Poison, which are the main types that beat Rillaboom, too, so the fairy typing isn't gonna let Bulu break through the walls Rillaboom can't.
Horn Leech(I forgot it lmao): Probably the most major thing Bulu has over Boom is Horn Leech. Horn Leech is the main reason why we saw AV Bulu running around, but we don't see AV Rillaboom. Lefties + Semi-reliable recovery + x1.5 Spdef boost? Count me in. This allows bulu to maintain longevity during a sweep or as a pivot, although it can't do the latter of these things as reliably as rillaboom due to lack of U-turn.
What does Rillaboom have over Bulu?
Better Bulk: Can live hits easily from the likes of Excadrill, non-banded Rhyperior, and other Ground and water types.
Higher speed: Admittedly idk about this one, but helpful during a sweep.
Knock Off: Both Rillaboom and Bulu struggle with common walls, but while Bulu can Close Combat them repeatedly (dropping its defenses and letting in any of the now rampant ghosts for free), Rillaboom can Knock, which removes lefties, rocky helmet, or any other item, which will help immensely.
U-turn: This one's the big one. Rillaboom now owes much of its success to its ability to maintain HO's pivot vortex. If the opposing Rillaboom check is knocked off, then it can U-turn out into Cinderace (Rip), Crawdaunt, Obstagoon, or any other Breaker or Pivot to continue the cycle. Not only does it maintain Offensive momentum, but it deals chip damage to opposing mons, covers double switches, and the incoming mon gains lefties.
One point I would like to make is that
The point I'm trying to make is not that Bulu isn't broken at all, just that don't dismiss it as a quickban.
Close Combat: Useful during a sweep, but Bulu's speed is even worse than Rilla's with no viable speed boosting move. Can be used sometimes to break past corviknight and ferro, but overall probably not too big an effect as others thought. I can't see Bulu sweeping too many offensive teams that have some sort of a grass resist, which is similar to Rilla, so I can't see this being sooo big as people think.
Fairy typing: might have a niche for living a hit from Urshifu-Dark if not banned by then, but in the end, just gives it weaknesses. For example, it dies even more to the rare poison move, and it loses Rillaboom's ability to counter Excadrill because it's weak to Iron Head and slower.
Play Rough: It's a secondary Stab, which in a vacuum is always nice, and it allows it to not be walled by Kommo-o and... Goodra? Yeah Fairy and Grass both are resisted by Steel, Fire, and Poison, which are the main types that beat Rillaboom, too, so the fairy typing isn't gonna let Bulu break through the walls Rillaboom can't.
Horn Leech(I forgot it lmao): Probably the most major thing Bulu has over Boom is Horn Leech. Horn Leech is the main reason why we saw AV Bulu running around, but we don't see AV Rillaboom. Lefties + Semi-reliable recovery + x1.5 Spdef boost? Count me in. This allows bulu to maintain longevity during a sweep or as a pivot, although it can't do the latter of these things as reliably as rillaboom due to lack of U-turn.
What does Rillaboom have over Bulu?
Better Bulk: Can live hits easily from the likes of Excadrill, non-banded Rhyperior, and other Ground and water types.
Higher speed: Admittedly idk about this one, but helpful during a sweep.
Knock Off: Both Rillaboom and Bulu struggle with common walls, but while Bulu can Close Combat them repeatedly (dropping its defenses and letting in any of the now rampant ghosts for free), Rillaboom can Knock, which removes lefties, rocky helmet, or any other item, which will help immensely.
U-turn: This one's the big one. Rillaboom now owes much of its success to its ability to maintain HO's pivot vortex. If the opposing Rillaboom check is knocked off, then it can U-turn out into Cinderace (Rip), Crawdaunt, Obstagoon, or any other Breaker or Pivot to continue the cycle. Not only does it maintain Offensive momentum, but it deals chip damage to opposing mons, covers double switches, and the incoming mon gains lefties.
One point I would like to make is that
Rillaboom is currently the better option in Nat dex because Bulu doesn't have any of its new moves yet, so no Grassy Glide or Close Combat.
The point I'm trying to make is not that Bulu isn't broken at all, just that don't dismiss it as a quickban.
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The problem is... you have just said that restricting 2 slots on a team to combat urshifu is fine. As shown by musiquepkmn, there aren't that many defensive checks to Urshifu-SS (CB WB and CC). For offensive checks, you either have to slow pivot, or accept that its taking a ton of damage, or sack something for the switch in. The latter 2 still allow for it to escape. It's damage output and coverage is far in excess of anything that OU has seen in the past. You can look at melmetal as a prime example of an extreme hard hitter, that could do major damage, and required specific checks in order to keep it sorted.
This assumes Toxapex is broken.
While the combination of a really nice typing, excellent walling move spread and the god-like ability in Regenerator, all it does in return is frustrate. Item removal, status, remove buffs... Its an effective universal wall.
But, outside of its walling abilities, its lacking on immediate pressure: Its a momentum killer. It usually comes in, kills the momentum with knock off/toxic/haze/force switch, then, either walls until the target is done, or swaps out into something that can handle it better. And its usually handled by some of the format's finest wall/stall breakers, like Toxtricity, Magnezone, Crawdaunt and Kyurem, or setup on by mons who thrive on passive plays, like dragapult and hydreigon. Even those that are mainly stopped by it can tech to bypass it if it is necessary, like the ones I listed in my previous post (While including old OU mons to prove a point)
Toxapex is fine, as it is fairly passive about what it does. If we had something with the same walling capabilities, but could be more agressive (Like Melmetal) then I'd be behind it. But its not. It has decent enough counter play to remain, imo.
What I was trying to convey is that I don't believe Pex is broken, but if it was, the argument that it keeps things in check that would otherwise be broken is not valid and shouldn't be used as an excuse when referring to any unhealthy pokemon in a metagame. Anyways, I'm excited for DLC 2. Zapdos returning should fix a lot of issues on its own, but pokemon like Latios look like game changers this gen.
So with the Tapu coming back, terrains are obviously going to make an even bigger resurgence than before DLC2. Prior to DLC2, Grassy Terrain was really the only prominent terrain in OU, à la Rilla, with the rare Electric and Psychic terrains sometimes finding holds but mostly being used in UU and RU. That’s all going to change with the Tapu’s reintroduction. Terrain offense is going to be even more busted than in Gen 7, with the new terrain moves allowing not only the Tapu but other mons to take advantage of the increased prevalence of terrains. Now, provided that Koko and Lele don’t get quickbanned—that looks fairly likely, because man, are they crazy—terrain removal is gonna be a necessity for a lot of teams, lest they get slaughtered by Rising Voltage, Expanding Force, or Grassy Glide (Misty Explosion is a rare nuke, and I wouldn’t count on that acquiring any footholds). Defog is obviously the most viable candidate for this, as it’s an ubiquitous utility move that’s pretty much mandatory for hazard/terrain removal (with the exception of rapid spin, but defog is generally favored as the better option due to more bulky utility mons having access to it). However, I wanted to touch on another tutor move that, due to lack of supremely busted terrain play until now, has barely seen any use: Steel Roller.
Steel Roller is a 130 BP steel move that only works when terrain is active. When Steel Roller is used, it removes any terrain. Now, a powerful steel type nuke that removes terrain sounds really good on paper, but what’s most important is who has access to it. Below is a list of notable Pokémon who have access to Steel Roller already, or will once they drop with DLC2:
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Obviously only a handful of these will have much of a niche in OU. However, I believe we could see a rise in some non-OU Pokémon such as Metagross and (maybe) Steelix to fill a utility niche by way of terrain removal and stealth rock. Steel Roller adds to Ferrothorn’s utility and provides Magnezone with another utility option in addition to steel trapping. I have no idea what the metagame will look like once DLC2 drops, and I truthfully have no idea if Steel Roller will find a place on many teams. Nonetheless, I figured I would posit it as an option for discussion.
Steel Roller is a 130 BP steel move that only works when terrain is active. When Steel Roller is used, it removes any terrain. Now, a powerful steel type nuke that removes terrain sounds really good on paper, but what’s most important is who has access to it. Below is a list of notable Pokémon who have access to Steel Roller already, or will once they drop with DLC2:
Obviously only a handful of these will have much of a niche in OU. However, I believe we could see a rise in some non-OU Pokémon such as Metagross and (maybe) Steelix to fill a utility niche by way of terrain removal and stealth rock. Steel Roller adds to Ferrothorn’s utility and provides Magnezone with another utility option in addition to steel trapping. I have no idea what the metagame will look like once DLC2 drops, and I truthfully have no idea if Steel Roller will find a place on many teams. Nonetheless, I figured I would posit it as an option for discussion.
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This is a great idea, and once DLC 2 rolls around I will definitely try it. I don't see it too useful on mons other than Magnezone, though. Ferrothorn is already wanting in moveslots for rocks, spikes, leech seed, protect, Knock Off, Body Slam, Gyro Ball, Power Whip, and possibly even explosion, so an attacking moves that is useless in the wrong matchup is not a good outlook (similar situation to fling blissey). Magnezone has always been looking for a 4th moveslot, though, so Steel roller might add good utility.
For real though, just use defog
Honestly, they could give Tapu Fini Life Dew since it fits so well lore-wise, so it would have a form of recovery. Healing by 25% may not be game changing, but it's something
You know it’s getting Flip Turn, right? A pivoting move is a much bigger buff than 25% healing could ever hope to be. I think it outweighs the defog psuedo nerf
Sorry if I sound a little bit nitpicky, but I just wanna point out that error. While Tapu Bulu has lower HP, it has 25 more base points in defense than Rillaboom, which actually means that it takes slightly less damage than Rillaboom on the physical side as you can see here with a Kangaskhan Double Edge as a simple example
252+ Atk Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rillaboom: 189-223 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 154-183 (54.8 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
In terms of special defense, Tapu Bulu is also slightly bulkier than Rillaboom, as these calculations against a Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball will demonstrate
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 187-222 (66.5 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 240-283 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Also in terms of sustainability Tapu Bulu wins due to having instant recovery in Synthesis and a STAB recovery attack in Horn Leech, which Rillaboom lacks. Therefore Tapu Bulu has more long term and slightly more actual bulk than Rillaboom.
Basically although I do recognize the rest of that argument I just wanted to point out something that was not factual.
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