Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #2312)

Just wanna give a quick s/o to OU council for the lando-i ban. fuck that mon

2 Mons I did want to bring up as potentially problematic to me are Magearna and Melmetal. I'll start with Melmetal cuz it's pretty cut and dry why I think it's stupid.

Melmetal's signature move, Double Iron Bash, is spammable as heck on CB sets, because it just breaks through half of the would be resists. Zapdos (risking static tho), Ferrothorn, Toxapex, and Moltres all get 2HKO'd with small amount of chip (molt gets 2HKO'd regardless), and can't do much back besides either hope for para, scald burns, leech seed, or burn with flame body. Although these are effective deterrents 90% of the time, it's also not hard to chip these pokemon into range of Double Iron Bash. It may not be an issue long term, but I think we should keep an eye on it.

Magearna is still absolutely obnoxious. At first glance, it may be not as great considering the Zygarde-Lando spam that was and is going around, as well as Heatran's popularity. However, Specs sets still just remove anything in it's sights, and CalmMind + Iron Defense + Draining Kiss sets just 6-0 teams that lack a Heatran. The fact that even if you predict wrong with Specs, 90% of the time you still achieve the chip you need to just Fleur or Volt the next time you come in. I don't have THAT much experience vs the setup Mage I mentioned, but Ive seen replays and I've used it, and it just is so hard to stop once it gets even 1 iron defense+calm mind off. Overall, I personally think Magearna should be looked at as soon as the Zygarde issue is taken care of, and keep an eye on Melmetal ,too.
 
Good riddance Lando-I !

For me the next mons that should be looked at are Zygarde and Kyurem-B. So far I think the council has done a good job getting rid of broken shit. Keep it up yall.
 
Landorus-I is no more
Not going to miss this Pokemon at all as it just wiped teams unprepared for the sheer ridiculous amount of sets it ran as in Gravity/Rock Polish/CM/4 attacks. Paired with LO and Sheer Force this was a huge menace to teambuilding and battles and I'm happy I won't have to see it anymore. I'd probably now say that Zygarde and Kyurem-Black are the most troubling Pokemon in the tier now, but its highly likely that Magearna's going to rise up to be broken in the upcoming meta. At the time of writing this, the Landorus-I ban hasn't been implemented yet, so this is all speculation for now but here are some notable Pokemon that really benefit from this ban:
:magearna: :melmetal: :toxapex: :clefable: :heatran:

I'll particularly write more about Magearna right now as its usage was already in the top 10 and then Melmetal later after I play a few games on the updated ladder. On a side note, I think Melmetal's the one who benefits from this ban the most after Magearna.

:magearna: Magearna :magearna:
Magearna was already one of the best Pokemon for me in the meta where Landorus-I reigned supreme, particularly because of Magearna's great 80/115/115 bulk, its fantastic Steel/Fairy typing, its 95/130 attack stats allowing it to opt for a physical attack in the shape of Iron Head on some sets or straight up go for 4 special attacks. Moreover, its slow speed allowed it to function well as a slow pivot with Volt Switch, allowing it to bring in other Pokemon safely because it can particularly sponge attacks well. Its movepool is also fantastic as it has BoltBeam coverage, a 130 BP Fairy nuke, Focus Blast to hit Steels, Flash Cannon/Iron Head to hit Fairies like Clefable. It functions as a check to Kyurem-Black too as it resists Icicle Spear and is only threatened upon switch provided Kyurem-Black gets a critical hit on Fusion Bolt, or if Kyurem-Black has several boosts and a Life Orb, or if Kyurem-Black is carrying Life Orb + Earth Power. Magearna can easily threaten Kyurem-Black with Fleur Cannon, Flash Cannon. or Iron Head. Other than all that, Magearna has the potential to carry a nasty Shift Gear/Calm Mind/Stored Power/Draining Kiss set which is an absolute pain to deal with under screens as Magearna gets a free setup and that set has ridiculous potential for scaling provided it gets a chance to set up, which it almost certainly does because of its amplified bulk under screens. I think that set is definitely the most troublesome to deal with because of the sheer power it carries.

tl;dr: Magearna was already quite strong in the previous meta and it ran AV too sometimes to compliment its bulk, as AV also allowed it to live Landorus-I and KO back with Ice Beam. I can definitely see a trend in which more Magearnas will be offensive, rather than the bulky defensive version in this upcoming meta.
 

AllTerrainVen0moth

Banned deucer.
One thing I’m concerned about is a chicken and egg situation.

If so many things seem broken because of how offensive the meta is and might become more manageable as and when things get banned, how do we know what to ban first?

If A isn’t as broken without B but B also wouldn’t be as broken without A then how can we ban one before the other?
Just ban them both at the same time
 

Perish Song

Rampage
is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
With the latest tier shift going unexpectedly with the fall of Tapu Bulu and Tapu Lele to UU, let's talk about this beast and what it has to offer for your teams.



Its Qualities

1- Misty Terrain


Misty Terrain is seriously underrated. Being able to switch into status moves such as Will-o-Wisp, Glare, Thunder Wave, and Toxic is simply amazing, and causes a drastic momentum loss for Pokemon that rely on the status spread. Sub Zygarde sets hates Tapu Fini being able to switch in almost freely, Toxapex cant spam Scald/Toxic freely, Heatran cant Toxic/Lava Plume you, and surely there is more stuff that just doesn't appreciate having the terrain active in the field. This is also beneficial for your setup mons as you don't risk getting statused as well.


2- Good Overall Stat Distribution / Typing


Tapu Fini has a good defensive stat distribution along with good defensive typing allowing it to switch into a plethora of threats. Dragon immunity is valuable, Fairy-typing acts as a good Urshifu check, additional resistances to Fighting, Fire, Ice, and Dark holds many things under control. It is also surprisingly fast to outspeed crucial Pokemon such as Heatran and force them out etc. It can also deal with most Zygarde variants.


3- It's move pool.

Tapu Fini has access to Taunt and Nature's Madness, two huge moves that are extremely important IMO. This move combination actually blocks so much stuff single-handedly. It blocks Teleport from Slowbro / Blissey, it prevents Roost of Corviknight, it completely blocks Clefable, It annoys Mandibuzz greatly. Moreover, its STAB combination is not bad at all, threatening a large amount of Pokemon in Sand Cores, Zygarde, Heatran, Pheromosa, Hawlucha, Crawdaunt, Keldeo, etc. It can also run Knock Off if desired, to make the life of all aforementioned Pokemon much more difficult.

Alternatively, this thing now gets Draining Kiss this generation and can be used as a Primarina v2, with more bulk and Speed behind Substitute along with status immunity. Overall it's working incredibly well to shut down most defensive Pokemon, go head to head with some offensive Pokemon on its own with ease, and threaten balance builds heavily.

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 12 SpA/ 40 SpD / 192 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt
- Scald / Knock Off
- Moonblast / Knock Off

Here's the set I'm using for Tapu Fini. I don't believe Defog is necessary for Fini this generation. Fini was already a bad Defogger due to the fact it was vulnerable to every entry hazard and Toxic Spikes went before its terrain did. Now, this gen the terrain got nerfed and I don't really want Fini to remove its own terrain lol. Since Defog wasn't my priority on it and Corviknight is a good partner for Fini to fulfill that role, I was able to fully benefit from Fini's stallbreaking potential.

The EV spread is standard from last-gen, as I believe most relevant points would still apply in the meta we're playing right now. 16 Def EVs allow Fini to tank a +2 Acrobatics from Hawlucha from full, 12 SpA always 2hkoes offensive Heatran, 192 speed is mainly for outspeeding Timid Magearna and Heatran variants. The rest is put in spd for more bulk.
 

BKC

loose
is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis the Smogon Tour Season 22 Championis a Past WCoP Champion
Moderator
In light of the Land-I ban (props to the council for this), I wanted to share this set I came up with:

:landorus-therian:
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Toxic
- Knock Off

With Land-I no longer able to use HP Ice, SpDef Gliscor would be a near-perfect counter. However, Gliscor is of course not available, so I decided to imitate it with Land-T. I tested this on ladder (my alt was ltpd 30 rock) and it was excellent, reliably handling Land-I every time I faced one. While it doesn't have Gliscor's amazing recovery combination of Poison Heal + Roost, it is actually bulkier than Glisc (382 HP + 284 SpDef vs. Gliscor's 354/273), and Protect + Lefties gives it solid longevity. Between Toxic's crippling effect complemented by Protect as well as Knock Off removing Life Orb and accelerating the effect of the poison, this set could even handle Gravity and CM Land-I variants fairly well.

The SpDef wasn't just good for Land-I, though - it didn't hard counter much, although one of the few pokes it did hard counter was Specs Koko, which was excellent. Having a long-term Electric immunity was also great for Regieleki. However, what this set did do was give me the flexibility to play around a LOT of major threats with greater ease: most notably, things like Spectrier (Specs Shadow Ball almost never 2HKOs from full and never will with Protect), Torn-T (unboosted Hurricane isn't a guaranteed 3HKO, +2 Hurricane doesn't come close to KOing), and Latios (Specs Draco doesn't come close to KOing, means I don't necessarily have to scout with Protect/switch after using Protect and can instead be more aggressive). Obviously, I preferred to primarily check these Pokemon with my other team members, but having different options was really nice against teams with lots of dangerous threats - if I had a situation such as, say, my Hydreigon struggling to fend off Heatran + Spectrier, then Land-T stepped in and did an admirable job backing it up. Torn also tended to use Land-T to set up Nasty Plot, which was amusing: it'd eat a Toxic, then I'd Protect, then Knock Off, then Protect again...

The bulk was nice in some more extreme situations, too - Land-T (can't wait to just start calling it "Lando" again as soon as we get used to Incarnate no longer being around)) is overwhelmingly favored (87.5%) to survive offensive Magearna's Ice Beam, and 4 SpAtk Pheromosa tops out around 88%.

I think don't think the SpDef is really that needed anymore now that Land-I is no longer around - Defense will probably be more useful for handling things like Blaziken, Cinderace, Excadrill, Melmetal, Rillaboom, Kartana and Tapu Bulu. However, that is almost secondary because this Lando isn't just a wall - its moveset makes it an offensive weapon. With Gliscor, Megas and Z-Crystals not around, nothing takes Knock Off safely, and Toxic + EQ cripple the better Knock "absorbers" in Regenerator Slowbro / Tangrowth / Toxapex. Even the Tox-immune Amoong doesn't like EQ, especially with rocks up. Also, these Pokes losing their Boots means this set is excellent alongside Ferrothorn's Spikes.

As a whole, Land-T can threaten just about the entire tier with this set. The closest thing that comes close to being able withstand that trio of moves is ResTalk Zygarde, which I faced on one stall team (and still gets Knocked, and Zyg as a whole will hopefully be banned soon as well...), and Corviknight, since it can Roost. Even then, a Knocked Corviknight is super exploitable, whether with pressure from offensive teammates (such as Melmetal, who now comes in and threatens it freely), or with Magnezone capitalizing on the lack of Shed Shell. Plus, Land-T's EQ is strong even without investment, letting it chunk things like a Knocked Clefable. It doesn't need to run 0 Attack, though - without the need for SpDef, I could easily see it running some investment, as an Adamant nature with 0 EVs is nigh-guaranteed (99.6%) to 2HKO Kartana, hits Clef even harder and leaves plenty of room for HP/Defense/SpDef/Speed EVs.

To support this claim, I used the team I made with this Land-T in several Smogon Tour games, and didn't face Land-I with it once, but the moveset repeatedly put in work:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-524735 - harassing screens offense by coming in freely on Koko and Regieleki, all it had to do was not use Toxic until Mew blew up so it wouldn't get Synchronized, and from there it was insanely annoying to KO. Toxicing Hawlucha is a big deal, when I played teams like that on ladder it crucially allowed me to do things like save my Clefable for Zygarde. Even teams with more threats than this one (like Kyu-B, Pheromosa and the aforementioned Zyg) will struggle to switch into Land-T. The SpDef didn't really make a difference here, as I was ready to revenge the Magearna with Scarf Spectrier, but it got to show off how tanky it is by soaking up that Stored Power.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-524821 - hella long game, and I could've made more effective use of the Land-T as well as Melmetal, but this is an example of how irritating it can be against even super defensive teams.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-524858 - Toxic/Knock threatens everything. Intimidate + Lefties Protect gives Clef some security against CB Zyg (keeping it away from Iron Tail and allowing Clef to maintain Softboiled PP + stay healthy for Buzzwole).
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-524863 - cripples Corviknight, allowing Melmetal to go berserk, and helps play around Smooth Rock-supported Exca. Checking the rogue Dracozolt is nice too (while calcing, I was amazed to learn that CB Hustle Bolt Beak OHKOs Melmetal).

I would've loved to have included Wish on Clef, but couldn't fit it alongside the other Pokes I wanted to run - however, on another team it'd have been a match made in heaven, as would've been a Spikes Ferrothorn. Those replays also showcase something else I wanted to mention briefly: Melmetal is an absolute monster, especially with Protect. In addition to countering Kyu-B, it was also an amazing check to BoltBeam Magearna. Double Iron Bash outdamages supereffective EQ and threatens to KO offensive Gear after Stealth Rock, while SpDef investment means even boosted Thunderbolts bounce off...what a beast.

That's about everything. Can't wait for KyuB/Zyg to go next. Thanks for reading!
 
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Just want to give kudos to the council for the good work they've been doing since dlc drops. They've gotten a lot of unnecessary hate this gen but they are really starting to turn it around with the quick bans. Anyway, Lando-I was a busted mon. Its gravity + 3 attacks set murdered the entire tier, and it could also run rock polish, calm mind, stealth rock, or even some nutty weather ball shit on a sand team.
Below is a list of mons that benefit immensely from landorus's ban (spoiler: most just died to it or faced competition in terms of lando-t)
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and many many more.
That's all I have to say, I still think kyurem-black and zygarde are quickban worthy material but that all depends on the metagame survey coming out this week. Regardless of what bans occur, most of the immediately busted shit is going to be gone so I think we can all chill with the banning hype and wait 3-4 weeks before finding a mon that is suspect worthy.
 
honestly i didnt think landorus was that much better than many of the other premiere offensive pokemon in this tier. somewhat surprised to see it go.
I think that Gravity + 3 attacks is what pushed it over the edge. Ground immune mons already had to deal with Focus Blast and Sludge Wave upon switch in, and Gravity invalidates that matchup heavily in Lando-I favor.
 
After seeing the ban on Lando-I, I know a'lot of players are still discussing other mons rising to power, and although my opinion hasn't changed much regarding Zygarde being an unhealthy mon within the metagame due to it's stat distribution in conjunction with other variables (hpice lacking, glare sub sweep, etc) I have been more accepting of Kyurem-B. I still think Kyurem can be a problem within the metagame, but I do find it easier to deal with compared to Zygarde, but of course you do need to build to counter the common OU threats within the tier. I do like how we haven't mass banned mons, since we need to have an established metagame, and banning 1 or 2 mons at most at a time allows for a healthy metagame to rise.
 
Yeah glad :landorus: Landorus is out of here. A majority of its sets were Earth Power, Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, and then whatever you want in the last slot. Gravity gave it a nice matchup against a ton of things- Blissey can't depend on Focus Miss anymore because it's fully accurate under Gravity, Corv is no longer immune to Earth Power, and the Grasses that resist Earth Power get nailed by Sludge Wave. Then there were the Rock Polish sets that made it so that offensive counterplay doesn't exist especially given Lando's bulk being good enough to live any priority aside from Azumarill Banded Aqua Jet from full. Knock/U-turn are the standard spammable safe buttons this gen and in certain MUs make Lando infuriating to face- and it can always set Rocks if it wants as well. Not to mention the extra coverage like Psychic and Rock Slide that win other MUs like Amoonguss and Mandibuzz. All in all a Pokemon that was way too versatile, on top of a troll speed tier and the power to choose its checks.

With that out of the way, :nidoking: Nidoking now no longer is directly outclassed in the tier. Suffering before from competition with a faster, stronger, bulkier, more versatile, and more unpredictable Sheer Force breaker, you would never run the King outside of niche MUs. Now, Nidoking finds its place in the tier as a fantastic partner to Urshifu- Nidoking shreds through Clefable, Pex, Mandibuzz, Buzzwole, and Corviknight with its wide range of STABs and coverage. It suffers a bit from 4MSS, wanting to run its STABs, BoltBeam, Fire Blast/Flamethrower all on one set, and also has other options to consider like Taunt/Substitute to ease setup or Stealth Rock. Additionally, most offensive Pokemon have the jump on Nidoking given that he can't outspeed basically Excadrill or faster with base 85 speed. However, the utility of its wallbreaking power is more than enough to give it a niche. It should find a place on teams looking to punish passive play.
 
Just want to rant here that I think the following Mage set is still broken:

Magearna @ Weakness Policy / Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 16 SpD / 108 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense
- Draining Kiss
- Stored Power


From what I can observe, the amount of reliable answers is really little, especially with screens. It's often too late for you to respond to it as it's so easy to save for late game to reverse everything. Saying 'everyone just use heatran or pex or trick user' is really unhealthy IMO.
It seems to limit builder way too much for otherwise decent teams to tweak good counterplay vs it.
 
I had like 5 matches with pheromosa and it swept me please i just need it to get banned, because that sweeping potential is way too good.
 
I had like 5 matches with pheromosa and it swept me please i just need it to get banned, because that sweeping potential is way too good.
Try using Clefable, Toxapex, Buzzwole or to some extand Aegislash. If you look at the damage calcs those mons tank Pheromosas hits easily and can kill or, in Toxapexs case, cripple it back. I'll show some calcs.

4 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 121-143 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
best attack against Clef, barring Poison Jab

4 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 95-112 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 42-49 (16 - 18.7%) -- possible 6HKO
best attack against Aegislash barring Throat Chop

4 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 64 SpD Buzzwole: 165-195 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
best attack against Buzzwole

and nothing to Toxapex (what a suprise)

I really don't think that it is broken, but if you struggle against it, i'll recommend this mons :clefable: :toxapex: :buzzwole: :aegislash:
 
Has anyone been talking about Buzzwole in this thread? Because I haven't seen any, and recently many people have just been starting to realize how good it is.

:ss/Buzzwole:
Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 148 Def / 112 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bulk Up
- Ice Punch
- Drain Punch
- Roost
Not 100% certain what the EVs are for, if anyone could clarify.

You want Gorilla Glue? How about Bug Glue? That's right, Buff Bug Glue is the best Glue around. Seal your team versus broken, controlling threats like Zygarde, Urshifu, and Kyurem-Black (without Dual Wingbeat). This Bad Boy also covers your behind against menaces such as every offensive excadrill variant, Garchomp, Rillaboom, Pheromosa, Landorus-T, DD Dragapult, and more. Its defensive signature, the bug-fighting typing, means it has unique traits such as resisting Fighting-Dark without being weak to Poison Jab, resisting ground without being weak to Thousand Arrows, and its combo of Ice and Fighting coverage means most of the set up sweepers in the tier quiver in fear, and it packs Roost to even play the long game. Tired of being too passive against a Body Press Corviknight? Use Bulk Up to bite back, and the coverage it packs means it stings to anything not named water-type. When you get a KO, you even get a Defense boost so revenge killing from the likes of Pheromosa or Dragapult becomes more difficult.

Many of the threats this bug takes on are ones that would require multiple slots on other teams, such as Melmetal checking Kyu-B but failing against Zygarde and Urshifu, and Tangrowth beats Zygarde and Urshifu but not Kyu-B.
 
In light of the Land-I ban (props to the council for this), I wanted to share this set I came up with:

:landorus-therian:
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Toxic
- Knock Off

With Land-I no longer able to use HP Ice, SpDef Gliscor would be a near-perfect counter. However, Gliscor is of course not available, so I decided to imitate it with Land-T. I tested this on ladder (my alt was ltpd 30 rock) and it was excellent, reliably handling Land-I every time I faced one. While it doesn't have Gliscor's amazing recovery combination of Poison Heal + Roost, it is actually bulkier than Glisc (382 HP + 284 SpDef vs. Gliscor's 354/273), and Protect + Lefties gives it solid longevity. Between Toxic's crippling effect complemented by Protect as well as Knock Off removing Life Orb and accelerating the effect of the poison, this set could even handle Gravity and CM Land-I variants fairly well.

The SpDef wasn't just good for Land-I, though - it didn't hard counter much, although one of the few pokes it did hard counter was Specs Koko, which was excellent. Having a long-term Electric immunity was also great for Regieleki. However, what this set did do was give me the flexibility to play around a LOT of major threats with greater ease: most notably, things like Spectrier (Specs Shadow Ball almost never 2HKOs from full and never will with Protect), Torn-T (unboosted Hurricane isn't a guaranteed 3HKO, +2 Hurricane doesn't come close to KOing), and Latios (Specs Draco doesn't come close to KOing, means I don't necessarily have to scout with Protect/switch after using Protect and can instead be more aggressive). Obviously, I preferred to primarily check these Pokemon with my other team members, but having different options was really nice against teams with lots of dangerous threats - if I had a situation such as, say, my Hydreigon struggling to fend off Heatran + Spectrier, then Land-T stepped in and did an admirable job backing it up. Torn also tended to use Land-T to set up Nasty Plot, which was amusing: it'd eat a Toxic, then I'd Protect, then Knock Off, then Protect again...

The bulk was nice in some more extreme situations, too - Land-T (can't wait to just start calling it "Lando" again as soon as we get used to Incarnate no longer being around)) is overwhelmingly favored (87.5%) to survive offensive Magearna's Ice Beam, and 4 SpAtk Pheromosa tops out around 88%.

I think don't think the SpDef is really that needed anymore now that Land-I is no longer around - Defense will probably be more useful for handling things like Blaziken, Cinderace, Excadrill, Melmetal, Rillaboom, Kartana and Tapu Bulu. However, that is almost secondary because this Lando isn't just a wall - its moveset makes it an offensive weapon. With Gliscor, Megas and Z-Crystals not around, nothing takes Knock Off safely, and Toxic + EQ cripple the better Knock "absorbers" in Regenerator Slowbro / Tangrowth / Toxapex. Even the Tox-immune Amoong doesn't like EQ, especially with rocks up. Also, these Pokes losing their Boots means this set is excellent alongside Ferrothorn's Spikes.

As a whole, Land-T can threaten just about the entire tier with this set. The closest thing that comes close to being able withstand that trio of moves is ResTalk Zygarde, which I faced on one stall team (and still gets Knocked, and Zyg as a whole will hopefully be banned soon as well...), and Corviknight, since it can Roost. Even then, a Knocked Corviknight is super exploitable, whether with pressure from offensive teammates (such as Melmetal, who now comes in and threatens it freely), or with Magnezone capitalizing on the lack of Shed Shell. Plus, Land-T's EQ is strong even without investment, letting it chunk things like a Knocked Clefable. It doesn't need to run 0 Attack, though - without the need for SpDef, I could easily see it running some investment, as an Adamant nature with 0 EVs is nigh-guaranteed (99.6%) to 2HKO Kartana, hits Clef even harder and leaves plenty of room for HP/Defense/SpDef/Speed EVs.

To support this claim, I used the team I made with this Land-T in several Smogon Tour games, and didn't face Land-I with it once, but the moveset repeatedly put in work:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-524735 - harassing screens offense by coming in freely on Koko and Regieleki, all it had to do was not use Toxic until Mew blew up so it wouldn't get Synchronized, and from there it was insanely annoying to KO. Toxicing Hawlucha is a big deal, when I played teams like that on ladder it crucially allowed me to do things like save my Clefable for Zygarde. Even teams with more threats than this one (like Kyu-B, Pheromosa and the aforementioned Zyg) will struggle to switch into Land-T. The SpDef didn't really make a difference here, as I was ready to revenge the Magearna with Scarf Spectrier, but it got to show off how tanky it is by soaking up that Stored Power.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-524821 - hella long game, and I could've made more effective use of the Land-T as well as Melmetal, but this is an example of how irritating it can be against even super defensive teams.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-524858 - Toxic/Knock threatens everything. Intimidate + Lefties Protect gives Clef some security against CB Zyg (keeping it away from Iron Tail and allowing Clef to maintain Softboiled PP + stay healthy for Buzzwole).
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-524863 - cripples Corviknight, allowing Melmetal to go berserk, and helps play around Smooth Rock-supported Exca. Checking the rogue Dracozolt is nice too (while calcing, I was amazed to learn that CB Hustle Bolt Beak OHKOs Melmetal).

I would've loved to have included Wish on Clef, but couldn't fit it alongside the other Pokes I wanted to run - however, on another team it'd have been a match made in heaven, as would've been a Spikes Ferrothorn. Those replays also showcase something else I wanted to mention briefly: Melmetal is an absolute monster, especially with Protect. In addition to countering Kyu-B, it was also an amazing check to BoltBeam Magearna. Double Iron Bash outdamages supereffective EQ and threatens to KO offensive Gear after Stealth Rock, while SpDef investment means even boosted Thunderbolts bounce off...what a beast.

That's about everything. Can't wait for KyuB/Zyg to go next. Thanks for reading!
If you didn't read this with BKC's voice you aren't a True BKC fan(This goes for other people not to BKC itself)
 
Sorry for posting again, would like to make a post about Magma Storm + Taunt Tran
https://pokepast.es/7e67568d9d8cc0e4
Trick on Latios can be 4th attack if you'd like.
Zygarde EVs are to live Slowbro Scald behind Sub and to outspeed Modest Rain Kingdra after two dragon dances.

Another mon I think that could use more attention is Heatran. Specifically, the Magma Storm+Taunt trapping sets.
:ss/Heatran:
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock/Protect/Flash Cannon/Eruption

Heatran is already a great pokemon, with its Unique typing and ability invalidating so many OU choices. This set is an old trusted one which really shines in this metagame due to the many threats that can take advantage of Tran's trapping. Heatran traps the opposing defensive pokemon, such as Blissey, Clefable, Toxapex, and Tangrowth with Magma Storm, then takes away their reliable recovery and means of escape with taunt. Many of these pokemon cannot hope to touch Tran, so once they're hit with both its pretty much over for them.

Why is this set so powerful right now? First of all, it can force KOs on tough-to-beat defensive pokemon who have the tendency to stick around. This improves your stall matchup immensely. Now, the major point is similar to other team support: It can trap these walling behemoths, which removes roadblocks for the rest of your team. For example, clearing the field of Clefable often means the opponent's only reliable method of stopping sub Zygarde is gone. Clearing the field of Blissey means the opponent's only method of dealing with Specs Latios (or any other special attacer) is gone. Heatran can't trap everything, but you can easily EV pokemon like Zygarde to withstand Slowbro scalds behind a sub, or run aura sphere on Latios to destroy spdef ttar. I capitalized on this to the maximum with my previously listed team, where I have a scarf latios and a Zygarde who is ev'd to beat Slowbro. Zygarde and Heatran specifically make a great pairing, as not only do they have offensive synergy, they also have a nice type synergy with Heatran resisting ice for Zygarde. Of course, Zygarde is gonna be gone soon but TrapTran can still support teammates such as QD Phermosa (rid of Blissey and Toxapex), Bulk Up Buzzwole (rid of Toxapex), Urshifu (rid of Clefable and Toxapex), and pretty much any special attacker with its special method of luring and trapping Blissey.
 
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After midnight, if you still wanna meet
I'll be at the Black Horse Tavern on Armageddon Street - Bob Dylan


I really can't make up mind on whether I like Spectrier in the tier. On one hand, it has roughly mewtwo level speed and power with special moxie. The down side is that the same things check all of its sets. I don't find choice sets too problematic all things considered, the fact it can snowball late game isn't really unique or interesting. I find the sub hex set to be really nasty though and effective at breaking down opposing teams, even if it doesn't end up sweeping. How does everyone feel about this thing?
 
View attachment 288539
After midnight, if you still wanna meet
I'll be at the Black Horse Tavern on Armageddon Street - Bob Dylan


I really can't make up mind on whether I like Spectrier in the tier. On one hand, it has roughly mewtwo level speed and power with special moxie. The down side is that the same things check all of its sets. I don't find choice sets too problematic all things considered, the fact it can snowball late game isn't really unique or interesting. I find the sub hex set to be really nasty though and effective at breaking down opposing teams, even if it doesn't end up sweeping. How does everyone feel about this thing?
I think its still good in a tier where ghost resists aren't common. Pairing this up in a hazard stacking team it can flourish. If you also bring teammates that can check darks and Chansey/Blissey, it will shine well. Specs is the more nastier set as you can snowball faster.
 
I dont quite see what some people find broken about Kyurem-B.




While its 125/100/90 bulk is excellent for an offensive mon allowing it to get easy subs on passive staples such as Toxapex or Blissey, its held back by an atrocious defensive typing which makes it weak to all forms of entry hazards as well as cursing it with no useful resistances to speak of, besides Water for Toxapex's Scald. It wants HDBs so it can switch in against the passive mons it threatens out more easily, but then it will eventually get worn down from the Substitutes it creates; but it also desires Leftovers so it can create more substitutes and threaten bulky teams over longer games. Its speed tier is also quite lacking; 95 means its easily revenge killed by Scarf Dragapult after a DD, or even 2 if running an Adamant nature. All this means that it lacks the ability to get setup opportunities against more offensive teams but terrorizes more passive teams. Considering one of the biggest problems pre-DLC was the lack of mons able to punish the general passivity of the metagame, I think mons like Kyurem-B are healthy and should stay.
 
I dont quite see what some people find broken about Kyurem-B.




While its 125/100/90 bulk is excellent for an offensive mon allowing it to get easy subs on passive staples such as Toxapex or Blissey, its held back by an atrocious defensive typing which makes it weak to all forms of entry hazards as well as cursing it with no useful resistances to speak of, besides Water for Toxapex's Scald. It wants HDBs so it can switch in against the passive mons it threatens out more easily, but then it will eventually get worn down from the Substitutes it creates; but it also desires Leftovers so it can create more substitutes and threaten bulky teams over longer games. Its speed tier is also quite lacking; 95 means its easily revenge killed by Scarf Dragapult after a DD, or even 2 if running an Adamant nature. All this means that it lacks the ability to get setup opportunities against more offensive teams but terrorizes more passive teams. Considering one of the biggest problems pre-DLC was the lack of mons able to punish the general passivity of the metagame, I think mons like Kyurem-B are healthy and should stay.
While a lot of your points are good, I think you're overestimating how much substitute damage builds up; the fact is, the 2 biggest offensive checks to Kyurem (scarf Pult and Melmetal) also happen to invalidate substitute to some extent, and basically everything else gets 2HKOd by it at +1. There are only a small handful of other things that can potentially put pressure on it, such as CC Urshifu, Magearna and Gyro Ball Ferrothorn; all them can very easily be chipped down into kill range by Kyurem or its teammates, especially with hazards up. Damage ranges can also get screwed with thanks to Icicle Spear's inherent randomness, making would-be checks like Ferro and Urshifu suddenly very shaky. In practical terms, to survive long-term vs Kyurem as a defensive team, you need to either fit a hard check onto your team (Scarf Pult, Melmetal or Buzzwole), or run one of the few soft checks along with a Wishport Clef to keep them alive - which I'm sure is something you don't want to see make a return.
I personally think that this dynamic is overly restrictive for non-offense teams, and I think leaving something in the tier just because it matches up poorly against one specific team style is unfair on anyone not running that style. For comparison, Naganadel matches up significantly worse against bulkier balance teams that could more easily fit hard checks like Heatran and Blissey in, but I still think it was too restrictive for offense teams due to the ease at which it could set up against them and snowball into a win. While I personally don't think Kyurem is worthy of a quickban at this point, and it's certainly much more possible to play/build around than Naga, I still think it's a restrictive and unhealthy presence in the tier.
 
View attachment 288539
After midnight, if you still wanna meet
I'll be at the Black Horse Tavern on Armageddon Street - Bob Dylan


I really can't make up mind on whether I like Spectrier in the tier. On one hand, it has roughly mewtwo level speed and power with special moxie. The down side is that the same things check all of its sets. I don't find choice sets too problematic all things considered, the fact it can snowball late game isn't really unique or interesting. I find the sub hex set to be really nasty though and effective at breaking down opposing teams, even if it doesn't end up sweeping. How does everyone feel about this thing?
View attachment 288539
After midnight, if you still wanna meet
I'll be at the Black Horse Tavern on Armageddon Street - Bob Dylan

I really can't make up mind on whether I like Spectrier in the tier. On one hand, it has roughly mewtwo level speed and power with special moxie. The down side is that the same things check all of its sets. I don't find choice sets too problematic all things considered, the fact it can snowball late game isn't really unique or interesting. I find the sub hex set to be really nasty though and effective at breaking down opposing teams, even if it doesn't end up sweeping. How does everyone feel about this thing?

I'm of the opinion that Spectrier as a whole is a very good, but fair mon. Whilst both sets do slightly different things, they are quite potent offensively. They both share mostly the same checks and counters which are also pretty good mons themselves and both require a bit of support to make use of their full potential. I'll talk about the sub/wisp set since that is what I have experience using.


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Spectrier @ Leftovers
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Nasty Plot

This is, in my opinion, the standard sub/wisp set. Shadow Ball, Mud Shot, and Dark Pulse are also viable options for the 4th moveslot in decreasing order of viability. Like you said, it is very good at wearing down teams to create an opportunity for itself to sweep in the endgame. However, it does have a few checks and counters. I've listed most of them below.

This mostly pertains to Blissey. Whilst Blissey cannot do anything to Spectrier behind a sub, spectrier also cannot do anything back. It isn't worth dropping wisp for dark pulse as you need +5 to guarentee a 3hko whilst hoping for a flinch. Wisping something on the switch is far more useful. It faces similar issues with porygon 2, a mon which is seeing some usage thanks to the popularity of trick room on the ladder at the moment.


The three dark types in OU, Tyranitar, Mandibuzz, and Urshifu all pose pretty big problems to Spectrier. Tyranitar is pretty much a full counter, barely taking any damage from anything Spectrier can throw at it. Even if burnt, a rock blast will usually break a sub whilst sandstorm negates leftovers recovery. Mandibuzz does much of the same thing early to mid game at least. It easily soaks up attacks and forces Spectrier out. However, late game, if statused, it is 2hko'd by a +2 hex unless it is fully invested in SpD, then it becomes a 3.9% chance.

Urshifu is a much more interesting matchup that isn't as cut and dry as it would seem. Urshifu obviously destroys it offensively between wicked blow, sucker punch, and the ability to pivot out. Subing on the switch allows Spectrier to burn Urshifu, which immensely eases the defensive pressure on the rest of the team later on. If ursifu is banded it also becomes locked into wicked blow and quickly gets worn down to where it can be dealt with easily later on. Bulk up is a bit scarier as it doesn't mind the burn quite as much and scarf is something to beware of as it has picked up a fair bit of usage recently.

G-Moltres also gets an honourable mention as it seems to be picking up in usage a bit more. It is specially bulky, forces Spectrier out, but has no recovery and is worn down throughout the match.

Heatran walls pretty much any unboosted Spectrier lacking mudshot. Spectrier can tank a hit later in the game to boost and/or finish it off, but for the most part heatran is a pretty good check. Scarftran absolutely demolishes it, but doesn't want to switch in on it.

Regileki and Dragapult both revenge Spectrier fairly easily, though neither particularly wants to switch in. Pheramosa can't do much of anything if it doesn't have triple axel or throat chop. Scarfers can all revenge it fairly easily, but ditto is probably the scariest.


Whilst it does have a good match v most trick room mons, it can't do much of anything whilst trick room is up and still gets ohko'd by banded double iron bash. It is a mixed bag of a matchup where it can do a lot of work, but it can have a lot of trouble doing so.


It does have a lot of issues with priority, particularly grassy glide rillaboom and sucker punch.

However, despite this seemingly long list of things that give it a lot of trouble, you don't tend to see multiple on the same team. In order to endgame with Spectrier, it requires a bit of support. I've found that Toxapex and Tyranitar make excellent partners. Toxic spikes and knock off from pex soften up things for specrtier to break through. Knocking heatrans leftovers on the switch also helps immensly. Tyranitar can provide thunder wave support whilst being an amazingly bulky wall that can dent things pretty hard with its coverage. Between these two Spectrier doesn't often need to wisp something and can hex, sub, or boost right off the bat.

It does have some defensive utility, preventing spin from pheramosa and can generally take a hit or two on the special side since 100/60/80 bulk isn't godawful. Overall, it feels like a very good, but not unhealthy mon. It does its job very well, but has many viable ways to deal with it in the metagame. It isn't super splashable, but it isn't limiting to build around. I think the sub/hex set will be better than the choice sets over time as the meta gets fatter since it rips those teams apart whilst choice sets are better against offence
 

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