Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

TailGlowVM

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yh it really got a lot better post mage and cinderace bans. Even more importantly than slowbro itself losing usage IMO is that it doesnt run helmet nearly as much now, and helmet in general isn't that popular anymore, which is great for watershifu, as it no longer has to fear getting massively punished for clicking the move it wants to click most often. It can still get walled, but it doesn't get punished nearly as hard for just clicking moves as it did before.
Also there has been a slight rise in physical defense setup mons like iron defense skarmory, iron defense magnezone and bulk up corviknight which tend to use substitute(except skarm), and surging strikes is great to put the pressure on such threats; while not a counter as such sets tend to run super effective moves, it can serve as an emergency check if they are already set up and hard to remove and/or chipped.

It still ain't a world beater like its cousin, but a lot of things that made using it REALLY miserable are gone or not popular
Having a strong Aqua Jet also makes it a good revenge killer to Volcarona, though you can't switch in safely with almost all Volcarona running Psychic for Toxapex.
 
Interesting, Zamazenta doesn't even learn Swords Dance.
Kyurem-B was a piece of shit that brought nothing positive to the table, outside of spamming its choiced dragon stab, be it physical or special, and awkward sub sets, a comparision between Giratina (bw, of course, you never saw Gira OU, but the functionality would be similiar to it.) and Zam seems to be more fitting, powerful 'mons that are unbanned to blanket check several stuff, and ease teambuilding when dealing with 9,999+ threats With your 6 slots.
How would it work, though? Unbanning Zamazenta-Crowned? You're forced to have the shield when teambuilding, otherwise the team is banned to ubers? Bit strange, but it wouldn't be the first time, with Megachomp being regarded as weaker than regular 'Chomp, though those megas were "Tier X by technicality", you could argue though, that you weren't forced to mega evolve ASAP with Garchomp, so that changes the matter at hand, and as such the approach to have.
If you do the suspect test now and have people vote during the April Fish, only to have the final result to actually be real, you could topple Haunter's April Fish on gen 6.
 
How would it work, though? Unbanning Zamazenta-Crowned? You're forced to have the shield when teambuilding, otherwise the team is banned to ubers? Bit strange, but it wouldn't be the first time, with Megachomp being regarded as weaker than regular 'Chomp, though those megas were "Tier X by technicality", you could argue though, that you weren't forced to mega evolve ASAP with Garchomp, so that changes the matter at hand, and as such the approach to have.
i was a bit concerned about this, tbh. It felt like a potentially odd complex ban.

Ofc, an option would be to just unban them both, considering that from our discussion if anything regular Zamazenta is less broken lol
 
Could you elaborate on that?

Has anyone tried any alternate sets on Volc? Like scarf or specs? I've tried them, but I'm very doubtful how good they are
Aight, only 1 message, or we'll risk bringing this OT.
Kyub unban in bw2 was only brought on the ground that it wasn't "broken", not the impact it had on the metagame, and sure, 95 base speed at some point was powercrept in it being bad, so after it killed something with Outrage (at the beginning cb was the most used set, sort of a better CB Haxorus in BW1) you had something like CC Terrakion, SS Keldeo, DM Latios, MP Breloom, Scarftar etc that could rkill it, that and residuals were basically the modus operandi for dealing with it.
I'm not here to tell you BW would have been an ideal Metagame if Kyub remained Uber, oh no, only a miracle could do it, but unbanning Kyub only made it worst.
Zamazenta-Crowned, I don't see it the same way as Kyub, more like Giratina as it actually has a function, but of course, that's just theory, and a suspect test could shed some light to it.
 
With the bans of Cinderace and Magearna opening up teambuilding significantly, I personally have noticed a significant uptick of other methods to force progress through the Boots and Regen-heavy metagame aside from the VoltTurn structures and the FuturePort spam we saw before the bans. Of course, those methods are still prominent, but I've really been liking the metagame adjusting to common strategies by way of wallbreakers. I'd like to go over some of my favorite breakers in the tier that I'm finding to be really good right now, what they do, and why they're good.

Physical Wallbreakers
1. :garchomp: Garchomp is really good right now despite not having much to gain directly from the bans, but rather enjoying the meta that formed because of the bans. Its SD set is an extremely strong threat with powerful Ground STAB pairs nicely with Stone Edge to cover Ground resists and STAB Scale Shot to boost speed. Not to mention its potential mixed sets that cook common SD answers like Corviknight. Chomp has always been a stellar wallbreaker, and it'll continue to be one for the foreseeable future.
2. :rillaboom: Rillaboom obviously really liked the bans by removing two of its main checks. Band is of course still a crazy breaker thanks to Knock/U-turn/Glide/Hammer being very strong in tandem, but SD sets have really started to shine thanks to their ability to punish switches and beat through common Band answers like Corv with a boost or two under the belt. Rillaboom is really developing into a multifacted OU threat like DLC 1, and I'm really liking what it can do as a breaker.
3. :kartana: Not unlike Rillaboom, Kartana shines a lot with the bans. Band is able to really open up defensive cores with Knock, and SD puts in a ton of work as well. I'm loving how Kartana feels right now- it always feels like such a massive threat and isn't easy to handle at all.
4. :weavile: The last physical breaker on this list, Weavile has really taken off as of late with Knock Off blowing the doors off of many Ice resists and also forcing progress extremely well. Ice STAB hits like a truck as well. Other options like Low Kick and Ice Shard are super nice as well, letting Weavile pick off the opponents relentlessly. Being Rocks weak and frail like it is means that a slow pivot is heavily appreciated. SD also is super scary and can't be ignored. Don't sleep on this.

Special Wallbreakers
1. :tornadus-therian: Tornadus has risen to become perhaps the best mon in the tier in the past weeks. Nasty Plot is a crazy breaker- Flying STAB is extremely good right now and Tornadus has all the coverage it needs in just Focus Blast to compliment Hurricane near-perfectly. Not to mention, having both Knock and U-turn (admittedly Knock is far superior these days but it does have the option to use U-turn on VoltTurn-heavy builds) letting Tornadus weaken its checks immensely over time. Additionally, while not necessarily being super bulky, Tornadus' naturally nice bulk, solid defensive typing, access to Boots, and Regenerator all work together to make Tornadus-Therian live longer than any wallbreaker in the tier and continually put in work throughout the course of a game. Utility sets are also great at forcing progress, but not by sheer power unlike NP.
2. :kyurem: Kyurem is soooo scary right now. Ice resists in general are not very commonplace in OU right now, which makes Kyurem all the scarier, especially given that it has all the coverage it needs to bust through what few resists do exist. Specs is a great set, with a very spammable STAB Ice Beam being perfectly complimented by STAB Freeze Dry, STAB Draco, and your pick of Focus Blast or Earth Power. I prefer Focus Blast primarily since, uhhhh Modest Specs Focus Blast kinda hurts?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 332-392 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
But in any case, bring a few Ice resists to every battle just in case. Loving this mon right now. Also watch out for SubRoost and SubDD. It forces progress by creating sketchy situations where the few Ice resists one has tremble under the power of common coverage.
3. :tapu-lele: Tapu Lele is another one of those breakers that sort of 2HKOs everything- not much can eat a Specs and Psychic Terrain-boosted Psychic these days, and what little can gets eaten up by other STABs and coverage like Psyshock, Moonblast, Thunderbolt, and Focus Blast. Lele is a bit tough to use if you aren't good at prediction, which is furthered by the fact that revenge-killing it is pretty easy, but when you nail your predictions, walls kinda just crumble to it. Scarf loses out on a lot of power, but blasting away offensive checks is no small feat either. It forces progress by putting a ton of chip onto switchins on mispredictions, and often even forces a sack.
4. :nidoking: Lastly, I gotta talk about Nidoking. At first glance, Nidoking doesn't look to be much of a breaker with a mere 85 Special Attack and Speed, but first impressions are clearly very wrong, because Nidoking can accomplish one of the greatest feats in the game: 2HKOing nearly the entire tier without needing to deal with a Choice lock. While his STABs are clearly on every set, the coverage you choose is one of the most customizable aspects about Nidoking, easily. Flamethrower is fairly common since it roasts Corviknight and Ferrothorn, which wall it otherwise, and the fourth slot can be tailor-fit to your team-- Substitute alleviates offensive counterplay to Nidoking, Stealth Rock is always a nice middle ground when uncertain, Taunt shuts down healing and lets him force damage more effectively, Ice Beam handles Lando-T and other Grounds, Thunderbolt (while extremely rare) turns Slowking, which is one of the most reliable switchins, into another 2HKO, and Focus Punch is a personal favorite of mine that 2HKOs even Blissey, the best special sponge around, in tandem with Sludge Wave. I think that Nidoking is a bit underrated right now even with meta trends being somewhat unkind to it, but I'll save that for another day. Overall, the King is just one of the best breakers around right now and is excellent at forcing progress with its nuclear blows that take a bite out of every wall.

Overall, I hope you all enjoyed this fairly exhaustive description of OU's finest breakers and how they force progress these days. Have a nice day!
 

TailGlowVM

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Has anyone tried any alternate sets on Volc? Like scarf or specs? I've tried them, but I'm very doubtful how good they are
I think you don't see other sets on Volcarona simply because their potential pales in comparison to Quiver Dance sets, just like the Choiced Spectrier sets becoming near unviable after someone worked out you could beat Mandibuzz and Blissey with the SubCMWisp set.
Taking Stealth Rock damage on a 4x weak Pokemon sucks too.
 
Interesting, Zamazenta doesn't even learn Swords Dance.
Kyurem-B was a piece of shit that brought nothing positive to the table, outside of spamming its choiced dragon stab, be it physical or special, and awkward sub sets, a comparision between Giratina (bw, of course, you never saw Gira OU, but the functionality would be similiar to it.) and Zam seems to be more fitting, powerful 'mons that are unbanned to blanket check several stuff, and ease teambuilding when dealing with 9,999+ threats With your 6 slots.
How would it work, though? Unbanning Zamazenta-Crowned? You're forced to have the shield when teambuilding, otherwise the team is banned to ubers? Bit strange, but it wouldn't be the first time, with Megachomp being regarded as weaker than regular 'Chomp, though those megas were "Tier X by technicality", you could argue though, that you weren't forced to mega evolve ASAP with Garchomp, so that changes the matter at hand, and as such the approach to have.
If you do the suspect test now and have people vote during the April Fish, only to have the final result to actually be real, you could topple Haunter's April Fish on gen 6.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/how-should-zamazenta-c-be-tiered-resolved.3673325/

This PR basically says they tier them as separate pokemon. In summary, zama C falls into the same category of classification as the silvally forms, which are all tiered separately. So, if zama C is unbanned, it can only be run with the rusty shield, following on forcing the silvally forms to hold a specific item in the tiers that silvally is in.
 
Guess I put this in the wrong spot... Here goes

When we first saw base 200 speed on a pokemon, one that is related to Regigigas for Arceus’ sake we knew it would be worth looking at. In this article, I’m going to highlight the reasons why I think Regieleki should be banned. Please keep in mind that I am no professional, I don’t even have a good ladder ranking. Just hear me out.



What people have been doing



Most people have been using Regieleki as either a setup mon, for easy screens. There has been some usage as a special sweeper, taking advantage of its awesome ability and speed.



What NOBODY has tried



Regieleki is OP, here’s why. THROAT SPRAY. I was looking at ways to improve on its Special Attack stat enough to OHKO all of the pokemon in the metagame. I tried using choice specs which allowed an OHKO on most pokemon. However, this limited it to a single attack forcing it to switch out on any threat (such as any scarf user). I wanted to be able to use Volt Switch to get Regieleki out quickly if necessary. Being able to use Extreme Speed is also helpful for any Pokemon that have priority moves that threaten Regieleki’s speed control. The answer to this predicament was Screech. At first, you may say that it literally does nothing for Regieleki and that’s s where you’re right, It doesn’t. When you couple Screech with Throat Spray however you get a Special Attack boost on a pokemon that shouldn’t be able to get a Special Attack boost. Now mix that with U-Turn Tapu Koko, to get electric terrain down and you can OHKO almost everything in the metagame except for Ground Types. The answer to that? Throw Rillaboom on the team and you’re set. There are a few pokemon that can’t Be OHKOed by Regieleki, but they aren’t too much of a threat to worry about. Just for reference, it 2HKOs 255 SpDef Blissey.

It OHKOs Mega Rayquaza. It OHKOs Regice. This is crazy, neuter or ban. The only real counter is ground types (which can easily be countered with Rillaboom), scarf users, and Rotom Mow.

EDIT* I chose Screech over Round because Round can be blocked by ghost types.
 
Guess I put this in the wrong spot... Here goes

When we first saw base 200 speed on a pokemon, one that is related to Regigigas for Arceus’ sake we knew it would be worth looking at. In this article, I’m going to highlight the reasons why I think Regieleki should be banned. Please keep in mind that I am no professional, I don’t even have a good ladder ranking. Just hear me out.



What people have been doing



Most people have been using Regieleki as either a setup mon, for easy screens. There has been some usage as a special sweeper, taking advantage of its awesome ability and speed.



What NOBODY has tried



Regieleki is OP, here’s why. THROAT SPRAY. I was looking at ways to improve on its Special Attack stat enough to OHKO all of the pokemon in the metagame. I tried using choice specs which allowed an OHKO on most pokemon. However, this limited it to a single attack forcing it to switch out on any threat (such as any scarf user). I wanted to be able to use Volt Switch to get Regieleki out quickly if necessary. Being able to use Extreme Speed is also helpful for any Pokemon that have priority moves that threaten Regieleki’s speed control. The answer to this predicament was Screech. At first, you may say that it literally does nothing for Regieleki and that’s s where shouldn’tyou’re right, It doesn’t. When you couple Screech with Throat Spray however you get a Special Attack boost on a pokemon that be able to get a Special Attack boost. Now mix that with U-Turn Tapu Koko, to get electric terrain down and you can OHKO almost everything in the metagame except for Ground Types. The answer to that? Throw Rillaboom on the team and you’re set. There are a few pokemon that can’t Be OHKOed by Regieleki, but they aren’t too much of a threat to worry about. Just for reference, it 2HKOs 255 SpDef Blissey.

It OHKOs Mega Rayquaza. It OHKOs Regice. This is crazy, neuter or ban. The only real counter is ground types (which can easily be countered with Rillaboom), scarf users, and Rotom Mow.

EDIT* I chose Screech over Round because Round can be blocked by ghost types.
Thats like saying remove flying types and now rillaboom is broken. Anything can be made good if you use that logic. Considering how common grounds are. Plus it's not just grounds it's the many resists. Idk if I'm missing a joke but sounds kinda wack to be true.


+1 252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 196-231 (55.8 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Guess I put this in the wrong spot... Here goes

When we first saw base 200 speed on a pokemon, one that is related to Regigigas for Arceus’ sake we knew it would be worth looking at. In this article, I’m going to highlight the reasons why I think Regieleki should be banned. Please keep in mind that I am no professional, I don’t even have a good ladder ranking. Just hear me out.



What people have been doing



Most people have been using Regieleki as either a setup mon, for easy screens. There has been some usage as a special sweeper, taking advantage of its awesome ability and speed.



What NOBODY has tried



Regieleki is OP, here’s why. THROAT SPRAY. I was looking at ways to improve on its Special Attack stat enough to OHKO all of the pokemon in the metagame. I tried using choice specs which allowed an OHKO on most pokemon. However, this limited it to a single attack forcing it to switch out on any threat (such as any scarf user). I wanted to be able to use Volt Switch to get Regieleki out quickly if necessary. Being able to use Extreme Speed is also helpful for any Pokemon that have priority moves that threaten Regieleki’s speed control. The answer to this predicament was Screech. At first, you may say that it literally does nothing for Regieleki and that’s s where you’re right, It doesn’t. When you couple Screech with Throat Spray however you get a Special Attack boost on a pokemon that shouldn’t be able to get a Special Attack boost. Now mix that with U-Turn Tapu Koko, to get electric terrain down and you can OHKO almost everything in the metagame except for Ground Types. The answer to that? Throw Rillaboom on the team and you’re set. There are a few pokemon that can’t Be OHKOed by Regieleki, but they aren’t too much of a threat to worry about. Just for reference, it 2HKOs 255 SpDef Blissey.

It OHKOs Mega Rayquaza. It OHKOs Regice. This is crazy, neuter or ban. The only real counter is ground types (which can easily be countered with Rillaboom), scarf users, and Rotom Mow.

EDIT* I chose Screech over Round because Round can be blocked by ghost types.
Gonna turn this into a copypasta real quick. See how my friends react. Anyway, don’t you just get walled by every Ground in the tier, even the non-defensive ones? No amount of boosting will get past that. Throat Spray is an interesting tech though, might try it some day.
 
Why would you not just run choice specs? It has the exact same benefit as throat spray without having to waste a turn screeching. I understand you saying you want to switch moves, but offensive regieleki just wants to spam electric moves and switch out on a ground type, plus you'll only keep your boosts for one sitting.

While yes, rillaboom will generally be able to deal with ground types, you always give your opponent a free turn when you use an electric move against a ground type, and the most common ground type Lando-T has plenty of ways to neuter Rillaboom, through knock off, toxic, u-turn or just simply setting up rocks.
 
Thats like saying remove flying types and now rillaboom is broken. Anything can be made good if you use that logic. Considering how common grounds are. Plus it's not just grounds it's the many resists. Idk if I'm missing a joke but sounds kinda wack to be true.


+1 252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 196-231 (55.8 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
ligit use thunder lol
 
Why would you not just run choice specs? It has the exact same benefit as throat spray without having to waste a turn screeching. I understand you saying you want to switch moves, but offensive regieleki just wants to spam electric moves and switch out on a ground type, plus you'll only keep your boosts for one sitting.

While yes, rillaboom will generally be able to deal with ground types, you always give your opponent a free turn when you use an electric move against a ground type, and the most common ground type Lando-T has plenty of ways to neuter Rillaboom, through knock off, toxic, u-turn or just simply setting up rocks.
Yeah, but if the team only has Regieleki, Rillaboom, and Tapu Koko I'm sure you can throw Lando-T counters on the team...
 

ausma

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Hey; I'm glad we have a new discussion point, but please try not to use calcs against a Pokemon that's not even accessible in the tier or even the generation outright, as it doesn't prove or support any kind of point given it is a purely irrelevant hypothetical that does not explore the execution of Regieleki in the tier. Please minimize the one-liners, too, and keep posts constructive and substantial.

Have a good Friday, all!
 
did you even read my post? you need terrain down from Tapu Koko, and also rising voltage is an option
that is terrain down
unless im missing something thats also a + spatk nature. I mean unless you have the calc I'm just saying eleki is weak sauce. Plus at +1 it struggles to KO a lot more especially the more bullky resists. No amount of boosts is gonna let it hit ground types.

+6 252+ SpA Regieleki Swift vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 185-218 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

eleki is bad. tedtalk over
 
Guess I put this in the wrong spot... Here goes

When we first saw base 200 speed on a pokemon, one that is related to Regigigas for Arceus’ sake we knew it would be worth looking at. In this article, I’m going to highlight the reasons why I think Regieleki should be banned. Please keep in mind that I am no professional, I don’t even have a good ladder ranking. Just hear me out.



What people have been doing



Most people have been using Regieleki as either a setup mon, for easy screens. There has been some usage as a special sweeper, taking advantage of its awesome ability and speed.



What NOBODY has tried



Regieleki is OP, here’s why. THROAT SPRAY. I was looking at ways to improve on its Special Attack stat enough to OHKO all of the pokemon in the metagame. I tried using choice specs which allowed an OHKO on most pokemon. However, this limited it to a single attack forcing it to switch out on any threat (such as any scarf user). I wanted to be able to use Volt Switch to get Regieleki out quickly if necessary. Being able to use Extreme Speed is also helpful for any Pokemon that have priority moves that threaten Regieleki’s speed control. The answer to this predicament was Screech. At first, you may say that it literally does nothing for Regieleki and that’s s where you’re right, It doesn’t. When you couple Screech with Throat Spray however you get a Special Attack boost on a pokemon that shouldn’t be able to get a Special Attack boost. Now mix that with U-Turn Tapu Koko, to get electric terrain down and you can OHKO almost everything in the metagame except for Ground Types. The answer to that? Throw Rillaboom on the team and you’re set. There are a few pokemon that can’t Be OHKOed by Regieleki, but they aren’t too much of a threat to worry about. Just for reference, it 2HKOs 255 SpDef Blissey.

It OHKOs Mega Rayquaza. It OHKOs Regice. This is crazy, neuter or ban. The only real counter is ground types (which can easily be countered with Rillaboom), scarf users, and Rotom Mow.

EDIT* I chose Screech over Round because Round can be blocked by ghost types.
On my opinion it seems interesting and fun. However it's walled by Ground types and frail as fuck
As I love heat and creative sets, this set in particular is not viable. Since you not only need a turn to use with Screech but overall you're probably gonna die while using it meaning that's difficult to get the boost on the first place, and Regieleki has a lot of issues, lack of coverage in particular the worst, but the frailty, it's nice on the paper, but really bad in practice.
But I think there's hope for Regieleki in the sinnoh remakes. I don't want to theorycraft, however if Hidden Power comes back and Regieleki learns it. Ground-types will see a OHKO or 2HKO on their face. But again for now Eleki is not that good because frailty and lack of coverage (aka this is what balance Eleki from being overwhelming to check. Imagine it with Ice Beam or Grass Knot) so Eleki is pretty bad now but there's hope for him on the sinnoh remakes
 
Yeah, but if the team only has Regieleki, Rillaboom, and Tapu Koko I'm sure you can throw Lando-T counters on the team...
Even if you have counters, landorus-t (or most ground types in the meta) has ways to either threaten or cripple anything that's coming in, easily setup in it's face or just simply u-turn out and gain momentum. Yes Regieleki is strong, but that prevalence of ground types on pretty much every single team which completely nullify it makes it very hard to dedicate a team slot for.
 

Finchinator

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Also, Regieleki is fringe at best. Screens is cool, but Tapu Koko is arguably more consistent and versatile. Offensive sets are hardly ever worth using — no defensive niche outside of being a one time Tornadus-T check and you cannot bypass Grounds, which see usage on every non-Zeraora team. It is a cool Pokemon with some fun concepts, but it does not strike me as an OU mainstay or anything above a C tier threat.
 

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