Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Every possible argument for and against KR has been made 1000x in this thread and the PR thread. Other tiers including BW OU and Monotype have already followed through and banned it. Why is Gen 8 OU really different, other than who we specifically have on the council? The fundamentals of the item are the same. KR reeks of something that will be banned in a future PR thread once Gen 8 is an old gen and the council composition changes.

What is the more relevant topic are split council votes mid-gen. Is there really not going to be community input on this when the council itself can't form a decisive majority?
 
Every possible argument for and against KR has been made 1000x in this thread and the PR thread. Other tiers including BW OU and Monotype have already followed through and banned it. Why is Gen 8 OU really different, other than who we specifically have on the council? The fundamentals of the item are the same. KR reeks of something that will be banned in a future PR thread once Gen 8 is an old gen and the council composition changes.

What is the more relevant topic are split council votes mid-gen. Is there really not going to be community input on this when the council itself can't form a decisive majority?
This is the same as always. Arena trap was banned in older tier bc of changes in newer tier. Why we gonna have to wait years to the council to do his job??
Also losing to a flinch can happen but playing a wincon based in luck is the less competitive thing ever in my eyes.. but beacause i'm not in the council i gonna have to wait to gen 10 o something like this to this kinda of strategy get banned
 
Lol these kings-rock-ban noobs are the same ones that type "bg" as if there's some honor to playing one way over another. There no deserved "right" to not getting flinched. We're playing weighted rock paper scissors here...everything has an expected value you can base decisions on. Completely incoherent thinking to ban the item and not cloyster if the combination is supposedly too strong.

Go make ur own meta with only 100% accuracy 90bp moves if you can't wait for "something to be done about this"

Pabloaram I've lost games to thunderbolt paralysis. Ban thunderbolt? Same chance as king's rock. Pokemon's design as whole doesn't lend itself to non-odds-based play, so ripping stuff out arbitrarily in the name of "competitiveness" falls apart pretty quickly
 
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Lol these kings-rock-ban noobs are the same ones that type "bg" as if there's some honor to playing one way over another. There no deserved "right" to not getting flinched. We're playing weighted rock paper scissors here...everything has an expected value you can base decisions on. Completely incoherent thinking to ban the item and not cloyster if the combination is supposedly too strong.

Go make ur own meta with only 100% accuracy 90bp moves if you can't wait for "something to be done about this"
The problem isnt getting flinched or something. The problem is relaying in cheese to bypass check as a proper wincon.
In my eyes this in uncopetitive bc is based on luck instead of his own action. If Smogon want "competitiveness". Why this thing doesnt got banned?
 
The problem isnt getting flinched or something. The problem is relaying in cheese to bypass check as a proper wincon.
In my eyes this in uncopetitive bc is based on luck instead of his own action. If Smogon want "competitiveness". Why this thing doesnt got banned?
Literally read the other posts in here. Flinching or haxing through checks is not unique to cloyster. Blace, pult, kart, weavile... they all do this. One of you surely can explain why this is different. Nobody chooses to answer that for some reason though... I wonder why that is.
 
Literally read the other posts in here. Flinching or haxing through checks is not unique to cloyster. Blace, pult, kart, weavile... they all do this. One of you surely can explain why this is different. Nobody chooses to answer that for some reason though... I wonder why that is.
Shadow ball has a 20% flinch rate that doesn’t mean gg for some of the checks to the ghosts.
Kart has a smaller chance, I believe, to crit and again won’t automatically beat checks with one. Weavile flinches aren’t as likely or game winning. The problem with Cloyster is that it is a game ending sweeper, with a limited pool of checks that, for the most part, die when flinched. Calling all of these hax the same is not a fair comparison
 
Literally read the other posts in here. Flinching or haxing through checks is not unique to cloyster. Blace, pult, kart, weavile... they all do this. One of you surely can explain why this is different. Nobody chooses to answer that for some reason though... I wonder why that is.
Shadow ball has a 20% flinch rate that doesn’t mean gg for some of the checks to the ghosts.
Kart has a smaller chance, I believe, to crit and again won’t automatically beat checks with one. Weavile flinches aren’t as likely or game winning. The problem with Cloyster is that it is a game ending sweeper, with a limited pool of checks that, for the most part, die when flinched. Calling all of these hax the same is not a fair comparison
Also you dont make a team based in dropping spdef with shadowball or criting with leafblade.. Your plan to win whit Cloyster is based on the flinch bc per se Cloyster isnt the problem
 
Lol these kings-rock-ban noobs are the same ones that type "bg" as if there's some honor to playing one way over another. There no deserved "right" to not getting flinched. We're playing weighted rock paper scissors here...everything has an expected value you can base decisions on. Completely incoherent thinking to ban the item and not cloyster if the combination is supposedly too strong.

Go make ur own meta with only 100% accuracy 90bp moves if you can't wait for "something to be done about this"

Pabloaram I've lost games to thunderbolt paralysis. Ban thunderbolt? Same chance as king's rock. Pokemon's design as whole doesn't lend itself to non-odds-based play, so ripping stuff out arbitrarily in the name of "competitiveness" falls apart pretty quickly
PREACH man, PREACH
I tried to write a politically correct exposition for my thoughts, but reading certain arguments really trigger me for some reason. It's something about the arrogant attitude and the "council is shit man they don't ban this, that smh bro this council is dumb". A part of me dies inside when I read people having this toxic attitude.

Small rant aside, this is what I think. Game Freak creates items, abilities, Pokémon, etc. and we must have the freedom to play with everything they have created, unless they are deemed unhealthy for a certain environment (for example, the OU tier). There is no inherent competitiveness to Pokémon's core design, only strategy and interactions, it's just the way we want to play. Whether you like it or not, flinching is a thing and is a possible strategy. We all used Jirachi and/or Togekiss, right?
We can't just tackle everything we consider uncompetitive because it's uncompetitive, it must be bad/broken/unhealthy for the metagame. I'm not following previous gen's metagames, but if KR is banned there ONLY because flinch bad it's not a decision I agree with.

tl;dr stop bringing subjective "X is uncompetitive" arguments, we should only analyze if X is too much for the tier/meta and avoid complications and slippery slopes. ESPECIALLY if it's just a dumb item that's almost literally half good on a grand total of 1, somewhat niche Pokémon.
 
Also you dont make a team based in dropping spdef with shadowball or criting with leafblade.. Your plan to win whit Cloyster is based on the flinch bc per se Cloyster isnt the problem
Many times cloyster needs many flinches to cheese his way to victory against a healthy team. Many times ghosts need one drop to break through would be checks, especially weakened ones. Blace especially is usually one drop away from breaking through. Also, you don't make a team based around cloyster haxing his way through the game if you're good, you pave the way for him as much as you can, and if he needs a flinch or two to win you go for it, a similar to other sweepers.

Nish idk what you are saying. Weavile flinches past it's checks at +2 and you think it isn't gg? You also talk about those chances being smaller so where is the line? Is 41% too much but 30% is fine? Toge has 60% air slash flinch chance, is it uncompetitive too? If the difference maker between cloyster and toge, weav etc. Is that cloyster is stronger, then it looks like it is cloyster's unique kit that pushes it over the edge and not king's rock as an item.

Also what happened to having to prove an item is broken to ban it? I don't think if cloyster was banned that people would go to cinccino or shelder. How is king's rock the target and not cloyster. there are so many issues with the pro ban argument I don't even know where to begin.
 
Lol these kings-rock-ban noobs are the same ones that type "bg" as if there's some honor to playing one way over another. There no deserved "right" to not getting flinched. We're playing weighted rock paper scissors here...everything has an expected value you can base decisions on. Completely incoherent thinking to ban the item and not cloyster if the combination is supposedly too strong.

Go make ur own meta with only 100% accuracy 90bp moves if you can't wait for "something to be done about this"

Pabloaram I've lost games to thunderbolt paralysis. Ban thunderbolt? Same chance as king's rock. Pokemon's design as whole doesn't lend itself to non-odds-based play, so ripping stuff out arbitrarily in the name of "competitiveness" falls apart pretty quickly
Cloyster relies on hax to bypass their targets, while being little true counterplay to prevent it in return besides prevent it from setting up which is hard to prevent sometimes due to good players being able to position themselves so they can force themselves into a scenario where they can set up. Cloyster can bypass it would be checks in ferrothorn, toxapex, skarmory, slowbro, and melmetal. Would that be the case without king's rock? no, there is solid counterplay to cloyster, such as those checks/counters but they can easily be haxed through. The item is the problem, then why was mega lucario banned and not lucario if the item caused lucario to be a problem?
 
Cloyster relies on hax to bypass their targets, while being little true counterplay to prevent it in return besides prevent it from setting up which is hard to prevent sometimes due to good players being able to position themselves so they can force themselves into a scenario where they can set up. Cloyster can bypass it would be checks in ferrothorn, toxapex, skarmory, slowbro, and melmetal. Would that be the case without king's rock? no, there is solid counterplay to cloyster, such as those checks/counters but they can easily be haxed through. The item is the problem, then why was mega lucario banned and not lucario if the item caused lucario to be a problem?
In this case then, advocate for a Cloyster ban, not King's Rock. It's as simple as that. Cloyster ban affects only Cloyster. If I want to run King's Rock on someone, I should be able to as long as that combination isn't broken. If I want to run KR on Scale Shot Garchomp (example), but I can't because of Cloyster, it's absolute b's man. This is so simple yet I don't see many people understand it.
 
Cloyster relies on hax to bypass their targets, while being little true counterplay to prevent it in return besides prevent it from setting up which is hard to prevent sometimes due to good players being able to position themselves so they can force themselves into a scenario where they can set up. Cloyster can bypass it would be checks in ferrothorn, toxapex, skarmory, slowbro, and melmetal. Would that be the case without king's rock? no, there is solid counterplay to cloyster, such as those checks/counters but they can easily be haxed through. The item is the problem, then why was mega lucario banned and not lucario if the item caused lucario to be a problem?
Because unlike Kings Rock, Lucario Mega is a separate form from normal Lucario
 
But... UNlike king's rock, lucarionite only effects one pokemon which is lucario, so then why do we not ban lucario if its the problem. Its not something as zamazenta-crowned which you can just ban as a seperate pokemon
Dude zamazenta C is basically mega zamazenta lol it's the same thing, just with a different name
 

pulsar512b

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ant4456 , it’s less about saying hax is okay, even tho it’s already present in other forms, and more saying that, cloyster can be banned if it’s broken, and it’s likely that cloyster isn’t too good for OU.

ive flinched past checks with icicle crash before, in those same instances, I don’t mind if it doesn’t flinch, because a sub 50% corviknight or clefable is much more manageable to the next switch in (based on the team build). does that mean Weavile is too much?

pulsar512b , there’s a small list of Pokémon cloyster can get an easy set up opportunity on. If you have 2+ of those Pokémon on the same team and a 59% check, then you need a mitigation strategy to prevent the 41% chance you get swept by it.

example: if you have a Mandibuzz, brave bird corviknight and Garchomp without fire or toxic on the same team, you probably will struggle vs cloyster.

example 2: you have a banded Weavile on your team , and your best cloyster answers are Fini and Melmetal. If you don’t want to roll the dice on flinches, try your best not to lock into ice attacks on Weavile unless you absolutely have to.



just a thought provoking question, would a strong focus blast user be considered broken if it could get past its checks with a 49% chance of two focus blasts connecting? Surely you’d just build teams that could minimise the chances of instant loss with a double focus blast.
I would argue that the list of pokemon that Cloyster can set up on is while not like Every Pokemon Ever, pretty decent with it's 180 defense. In addition, screens lets it set up on like everything
 
Okay so I'm getting kinda tired of the King's Rock talk and nothing new is really being added, so I'm gonna try to switch the topic to a niche pick I've been having a lot of fun in OU with.

Volcanion


HP: 80
Attack: 110
Defense: 120
Special Attack: 130
Special Defense: 90
Speed: 70​

I've had some pretty good success using Volcanion in OU on a few varying teams with different sets, and I've been having some pretty great success with it. Volcanion has a fantastic amount of tools to succeed and can work wonders if you play around issues like his low speed. I will also be posting some sample sets below all of Volcanion's strengths that I've been mentioning here.

- A fantastic Fire / Water STAB combination, its Fire STAB nails Bisharp, Corviknight, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Kartana, Magnezone, Melmetal, Rillaboom, Scizor, Skarmory, and Weavile super effectively, while its Water STAB nails Excadrill, Heatran, Hippowdon, Landorus-T, Tyranitar and Volcarona for super effective damage. No other Pokemon in the tier can nail this unique combination of meta threats with its STAB moves.
- Having Water Absorb as an ability to give you an immunity to Water when you're a Fire-type is incredible, and also means that Volcanion is the only Fire-type Pokemon that isn't afraid of Tapu Fini, the Slowtwins, and (to variants not running Thunder Punch or choice locked variants), Urshifu-R.
- 130 Special Attack is fantastic, and 80 / 120 / 90 is definitely usable bulk (especially on the Physical side, which can be utilized for Body Press as well).
- An unexpected and very overlooked base 110 Attack stat means that Pokemon like Blissey can't come in for free.
- STAB Steam Eruption is a base 110 power Water move with a 30% burn chance, self-explanatory. On both the Physical and Special sides, Volcanion has access to a wide array of powerful STAB choices, along with more utility STAB choices such as Flame Charge.
- Very usable Special coverage options such as Sludge Bomb, Flash Cannon, Focus Blast, and Earth Power.
- For the Physical coverage, you have options like Rock Slide, Earthquake, Body Press, Heavy Slam, Superpower, Brick Break, and Explosion.
- A solid support movepool for added variety with great tools like Defog, Haze, Roar, Toxic, Protect, Substitute, and Will-O-Wisp

Sample Sets:
Blissey Killer:
Volcanion @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Sludge Bomb
- Body Press

Utility Defogger:
Volcanion @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Steam Eruption
- Substitute
- Toxic

Specs Breaker:
Volcanion @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power

Physical Booster:
Volcanion @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Flame Charge

Sweep Halt:
Volcanion @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Steam Eruption
- Will-O-Wisp
- Body Press
Give Volcanion a try! He can fit on multiple different team types, and his weaknesses can be worked around quite easily. These sets I've mentioned are just ones that I've tested, there's plenty more out there!
 
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Finchinator

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This discussion on King's Rock in this thread is unbearable. A vast majority of you simply do not have a sufficient grasp on the topic to be arguing either way. There will be no further posts on this topic effective immediately -- I will be deleting and infracting those who break this rule.

King's Rock is able to be isolated due to it not adding anything else to the game whatsoever as it has no other qualities -- having the choice to use the item is what is deemed uncompetitive and, therefore, banworthy. This makes the silly comparisons to things like Thunderbolt paralysis chance...silly. King's Rock and Thunderbolt with paralysis chance or Focus Blast with miss chance are very clearly not the same in this context. This logic was more than enough to get it banned in both BW OU and Monotype, too. There is no reason it would not qualify it for discussion and potential action in the SS OU metagame. Arguments on both sides are missing this entirely and focusing on granular pieces to the puzzle that do not warrant any discussion whatsoever.

Comparisons to Serene Grace make some sense on the surface due to it only modifying chances of secondary effects, such as flinching, but you also have to consider that Serene Grace is not a true "choice" like using King's Rock in many senses. Serene Grace is the only ability on Jirachi and the only remotely beneficial/practical ability on Togekiss. King's Rock is one of countless items that can be used which offer beneficial effects. There is a comparison here, but banning King's Rock and not Serene Grace is more than understandable given the fundamental differences in application and the context of the two.

I want King's Rock to be banned from SS OU. I posted the initial thread on it, which gained massive amounts of support, and I pushed the council initiative to vote on it. If not for me, I can almost guarantee this movement would not have gained the momentum it did, but seeing how much support it gained throughout the PR thread made me even more confident that I was doing the right thing.

When King's Rock did not get banned by a single vote due to a suboptimal voting structure and a single councilmen leaving mere days prior, which would have been the swing vote, I was frustrated and disappointed. I believe that the SS OU Council has made enormous amounts of progress by having more aggressive suspecting and banning practices within the last year -- be it having a suspect in the middle of an official tournament, quickbanning Magearna and Cinderace when there was clearly enough community support, or implementing the survey initiative. To me, this felt like a step in the wrong direction for reasons greater than my own personal disagreement. However, I see this as more of an opportunity than anything else: we still have plenty of room to grow through improving upon our processes, being more in-touch with the pulse of the community, and achieving the most efficient process we know to be possible.

Given this, King's Rock will be included in the next tiering survey and that should come out this weekend as I am almost done working on it. Respond to the survey with how you feel on King's Rock if you wish, but do not under any circumstances continue to litter this thread with discussion of it as that privilege is no longer being granted due to the lackluster posts preceding this one.
 

Baloor

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well i was typing out a thing about the recent (poor) kings rock discussion but finch sniped me so rip

Okay so I'm getting kinda tired of the King's Rock talk and nothing new is really being added, so I'm gonna try to switch the topic to a niche pick I've been having a lot of fun in OU with.

Volcanion


HP: 80
Attack: 110
Defense: 120
Special Attack: 130
Special Defense: 90
Speed: 70​

I've had some pretty good success using Volcanion in OU on a few varying teams with different sets, and I've been having some pretty great success with it. Volcanion has a fantastic amount of tools to succeed and can work wonders if you play around issues like his low speed. I will also be posting some sample sets below all of Volcanion's strengths that I've been mentioning here.

- A fantastic Fire / Water STAB combination, its Fire STAB nails Bisharp, Corviknight, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Kartana, Magnezone, Melmetal, Rillaboom, Scizor, Skarmory, and Weavile super effectively, while its Water STAB nails Excadrill, Heatran, Hippowdon, Landorus-T, Tyranitar and Volcarona for super effective damage. No other Pokemon in the tier can nail this unique combination of meta threats with its STAB moves.
- Having Water Absorb as an ability to give you an immunity to Water when you're a Fire-type is incredible, and also means that Volcanion is the only Fire-type Pokemon that isn't afraid of Tapu Fini, the Slowtwins, and (to variants not running Thunder Punch or choice locked variants), Urshifu-R.
- 130 Special Attack is fantastic, and 80 / 120 / 90 is definitely usable bulk (especially on the Physical side, which can be utilized for Body Press as well).
- An unexpected and very overlooked base 110 Attack stat means that Pokemon like Blissey can't come in for free.
- STAB Steam Eruption is a base 110 power Water move with a 30% burn chance, self-explanatory. On both the Physical and Special sides, Volcanion has access to a wide array of powerful STAB choices, along with more utility STAB choices such as Flame Charge.
- Very usable Special coverage options such as Sludge Bomb, Flash Cannon, Focus Blast, and Earth Power.
- For the Physical coverage, you have options like Rock Slide, Earthquake, Body Press, Heavy Slam, Superpower, Brick Break, and Explosion.
- A solid support movepool for added variety with great tools like Defog, Haze, Roar, Toxic, Protect, Substitute, and Will-O-Wisp

Sample Sets:
Blissey Killer:
Volcanion @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Sludge Bomb
- Body Press

Utility Defogger:
Volcanion @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Steam Eruption
- Substitute
- Toxic

Specs Breaker:
Volcanion @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power

Physical Booster:
Volcanion @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Flame Charge

Sweep Halt:
Volcanion @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Steam Eruption
- Will-O-Wisp
- Body Press
Give Volcanion a try! He can fit on multiple different team types, and his weaknesses can be worked around quite easily. These sets I've mentioned are just ones that I've tested, there's plenty more out there!
ive seen, played against and played a ton of volcanion in higher ladder olt games and i can say its really fun mon. with blissey and regular slowking falling out of favor a bit, theres isnt a lot of water resists that can stomache hits long term from volcanion. BO builds in particular really struggle vs volcanion as they tend to lean towards fini & ferrothorn as sole water resists, which are blasted back by volcanions great movepool. opening up opportunities for pokemon on your team that might struggle vs these. for example band pult really struggles vs fini, but volcanion puts a ton of pressure on fini which can open up opportunities for band pult to do some work. toxapex also really struggles vs volcanion because earth power does a min ~60% to spdef toxapex. being able to fuck up a ton of water resists obivously makes volcanion a good option for rain teams as, well, it removes water resists pretty efficiently. theres some other things going in volcanions favor like messing up some balance builds (balance has a bit more options than bo does to check volcanion), water absorb meaning the opponent cant just click water moves for free, being able to stomache fairy moves and being able to revenge kill volcarona if youre above ~72% (2 qds psychic from a offensive volc does 71 on a high roll) and ohko it from at least one qd (you can ohko offensive volc for a couple more qds but you dont ohko bulky variants after 2). not to mention this things utility movepool is great, which you already touched on in your post. the biggest flaw to this mon is its obvious very poor speed stat so you have to play with it conservatively but with boots this honestly isnt very hard to do lol. im very excited to see if volcanion sticks around for a bit because its a really fun mon to use right now and its one of the few cool trends to come out of olt so far, obviously this thing is no where near an a mon based on speed stat alone but given a neutral to goodish mu this thing can put in a ton of work currently and can make a ton of holes that your team can abuse.
 
Volcanion is underrated. Wanna know what else is underrated? Stall. While many people consider stall to be the worst playstyle, it’s getting better with new ideas like Buzzwole.

I want to start off by talking about why stall used to be bad. Specs Lele and Kyurem was a problem, future sight would kill your team, you would lose to pressure + rocks, taunt would beat you, SD Kartana would destroy, and there were many more problems. But now, stall can beat all of these. Let’s explain some adaptations stall has taken.

:blissey:

First off, stall is getting rid of Blissey. It sounds like a bad idea at first, but this is a good thing it’s finally being removed. Blissey really only does 3 things for stall. It beats Volcarona, it beats Dragapult, and it provides rocks if you don’t have already. That’s an entire slot you’re wasting and stall is so much better without it. There are other ways to beat Volcarona, Dragapult, and get up rocks which I will explain. (Note: Stall hasn’t completely gotten rid of Blissey. It’s still used on Shedinja builds and etc.)

:corviknight: -> :skarmory:

One single defog Corviknight just isn’t enough to keep up with hazard stack, and pressure rocks. Lando + Corviknight is super common right now. However, an adaptation stall has taken is to go for the no defog HD Boot spam spikes route. By giving spikes to stall and using HD Boots, you win games where there is no way to keep hazards off your side and apply offensive pressure. This is a lot more effective than trying your best to play around and remove hazards while you can just balance the hazards out with spikes and HD Boots.

:Toxapex: :Slowking: :Slowbro:

Future sight + breaker was dangerous for stall teams but now, Pex likes to run light screen on stall to minimize it taking damage. And even better, Slowking and Slowbro are dropping and ppl are realizing (including myself) that they switch into nothing and are easy to take advantage of. But back to light screen toxapex, it effectively provides a way to switch into dangerous breakers like Weavile, Urshifu-R, and Kartana. It’s a cool tech that has been used in WCOP and OLT. I made a post here on light screen pex if you want to know more.

:Shedinja: is also a way to beat future sight and it beats Tapu Lele and Kyurem as well. Shedinja builds are usually very successful, but they have many tricky match ups like Adamant Weavile where you have to predict. With proper play it’s good and many people will say that this is the best type of stall right now.

:Hippowdon: :Gastrodon: :Garchomp:

Stall needs an electric immunity, Tran check, and Volc check. These Pokemon are best at doing the job. There are other options but these are the main 3 in a good build. Hippowdon and Chomp both provide rocks and can check Volc by living a +1 giga drain. Both also easen up some MUs against things like Zeraora, and Zapdos. Gastrodon fits builds with Blissey since they don’t need to worry about Volcarona too much. :quagsire: is something to try out for hyper offense and stuff but for now these 3 grounds seem to be better in most cases. Not saying that Quagsire is bad now for stall (in fact Quag is still superb on stall IMO), but I’m more used to using these grounds.

Addtionally to stall, Clef is shifting to more specially defensive builds. It depends on your team but sometimes it can even skip out on Unaware and aromatherapy. How Clefable should be used depends on your build. Forgot to say, but Toxapex likes to run Spdef spreads on stall now instead of physdef. It’s to check Dragapult but sub wisp sets can be annoying to play around.

Some other great stall innovations

:scizor: :reuniclus: :corviknight:

Scizor, AV Reun, and spdef Corviknight can check Kyurem and Tapu Lele. Specs Kyurem isn’t the best right now because it’s easy to chip with hazards and outspeed, but these 3 mons are rising ways to check these stall destroyers. Spdef Corv and Scizor are obvious but for Reun, the AV set can trap, knock, and break your opponent’s team with infestation. I saw a team like this win some crazy matchups so it’s worth trying. It also beats all Tapu Fini sets.

:buzzwole:

Terrak, SD Kartana, banded ttar, doesn’t matter. Buzz beats them all. A great mon increasing in usage for stall and bulky offenses. It can clear out some of stall’s biggest physical threats and it is problematic for other teams to get past this Pokemon. Especially with light screen pex, this thing has a lot to offer for a stall team.

:Dragonite:

Dragonite is another mon being used more on stall. It checks things like SD Kartana, Heatran, and Urshifu-R (with future sight). It also can free up a slot with heal bell. Dnite is another mon worth trying but be careful with it since Weavile is going to rise to S- soon.

:Tornadus-therian:

Torn-T is great on stall. It gives a knock user, a potential breaker to get through other fat, and some venge killing potential. Taunt NP Torn can’t be walled unless you have a Zapdos or a Koko to revenge kill it. Heat wave puts pressure on Corv, and it can even pivot around and beat future sight. Shed Shell pex + u turn torn beats Heatran and it can get knocked in the process. It’s a good partner with Skarmory with some knock off utility and it pushes through the other team.

With that being said, a single stall team can now have a way of
- Shutting down future sight
- Shutting down Kyurem and Lele
- Beating hazard stack
- Beating Pressure + Rocker cores
- Beating SD Kartana
- Applying pressure to revenge kill some threats. (Like a Koko or something)

:Magnezone:
On Magnezone, with things like Buzzwole, offensive pressure, and stuff like Landorus running toxic instead of knock, it’s less of a threat. Spdef Corv can definetly run shed Shell and be ok. Scizor can’t really do anything, but if you run sandtomb your opponent will cry for days. Skarm can run shed Shell if you don’t bring it out against knock users and have something like a Buzzwole for Rillaboom or something.

Magnezone there was kinda random, but I wanted to talk about it first. Let’s move on to the rising threats for stall.

:Tornadus-Therian:
Taunt NP torn will just win unless you have a Zapdos, Zera, or Koko (who are all great on stall). There really isn’t much you can do otherwise. Get lucky and hope you don’t run into it.

:cloyster:
If your Skarm gets cheesed after a Shell Smash, and nothing else works, you lose. This is for all teams so it’s not that big of a deal.

:torkoal: :Heatran: :victini: :choice specs: :choice band: :ARCTOZOLT:
IMPOSSIBLE U CANT BEAT SPECS ERUPTION HEATRAN
ARCTOZOLT NO SWITCH INS

Honestly these are all of the rising things stall needs to watch out for. It’s not a lot. If I’m wrong let me know but from my POV, stall is really good now unlike before. While other ppl are struggling to beat Weavile, we have it here. Probs some things I missed but the way it stacks hazards and can play around even the toughest threats with offensive pressure makes it super good now. Of course there are other things for stall and I didn’t explain everything.

:wailord:
Not a meme. It checks Heatran and traps things with Oblivious and lots of pp. I’m in the process of making a wailord stall team. Then when I get a good peak (around 1800-1900), I will make a VR nom and get this thing up there. WAILORD TO C- NO STOPPING US.

Have a nice day. Please don’t react haha to this post AquaVanilla
 
Volcanion is underrated. Wanna know what else is underrated? Stall. While many people consider stall to be the worst playstyle, it’s getting better with new ideas like Buzzwole.
I would also like to chime in a bit as someone who mostly plays stall. It definitely seems to be rising in popularity lately, and some interesting things are being done with it.

:corviknight: -> :skarmory:

One single defog Corviknight just isn’t enough to keep up with hazard stack, and pressure rocks. Lando + Corviknight is super common right now. However, an adaptation stall has taken is to go for the no defog HD Boot spam spikes route. By giving spikes to stall and using HD Boots, you win games where there is no way to keep hazards off your side and apply offensive pressure. This is a lot more effective than trying your best to play around and remove hazards while you can just balance the hazards out with spikes and HD Boots.
This is a really solid way to play, it's just quite important to note that opposing corviknight are a nightmare for these builds, and you really need some way to stop them from just clearing your hazards constantly. Taunt probably works best here. The reason for spikes no defog is not only that you win games when you get to stack them, but also that it kinda functions like defog in that your answer to opposing hazards is to just set more hazards than them, thereby forcing THEM to remove hazards.

:Shedinja: is also a way to beat future sight and it beats Tapu Lele and Kyurem as well. Shedinja builds are usually very successful, but they have many tricky match ups like Adamant Weavile where you have to predict. With proper play it’s good and many people will say that this is the best type of stall right now.
I really have mixed opinions on shedinja stall. It might be the best stall build on average(I'm not 100% sure this is true or will continue being true as it needs a specific meta situation to thrive) , but it is also by far the most matchup fishy type of stall build there is, since some opposing mons on the preview just mean you will be playing 5v6 this game(think hippo and alolatales). So while it can be very strong, the polarizing nature of its MUs is a big turn off for me personally.

:Dragonite:

Dragonite is another mon being used more on stall. It checks things like SD Kartana, Heatran, and Urshifu-R (with future sight). It also can free up a slot with heal bell. Dnite is another mon worth trying but be careful with it since Weavile is going to rise to S- soon.
I'm gonna be a bit salty rn, but I dunno how much of an innovation dnite can be considered on stall since I have ben screeching for people to use it on stall basically since crown tundra came out, and it's really great. It can really handle some things that are notoriously scary for stall, like tran and magnezone well, and it has that toxapex like quality that it's pretty good to throw out to scout when it's full health since it can probably take most hits reasonably then. It's also very easy to fit on teams owing to it's high versatility of sets from heal bell, defog, to even countersweeping, as well as great coverage options on both sides of the spectrum.

and speaking of dnite:
:torkoal: :Heatran: :victini: :choice specs: :choice band: :ARCTOZOLT:
IMPOSSIBLE U CANT BEAT SPECS ERUPTION HEATRAN
ARCTOZOLT NO SWITCH INS
focusing specifically on sun, specially defensive nite with EQ/heal bell/roost/flamethrower is one of the best answers stall has for sun, since it beats every one of the most common sun mons, with multiscale and resisting fire, it can tank eruption easily and answer with EQ, sun boosted flamethrower in sun 2hkos venu while it's immune to or resists everything it can throw out bar the currently unpopular sludge bomb, and it wins 1v1s with victini, darmanitan and torkoal. If you play it well and keep it from getting overwhelmed, which can admittedly be hard since you need it to check a lot of stuff and keep it healthy and free of status, it can single handedly solo sun.

some other things for stall that bear mentioning are protect, which can be another way of easing FS pressure when used on certain pokemon that take FS well, as well as :umbreon: which has a pretty good mixed bulk with 95/110/130, is a great user of the aforementioned protect, offers a rare ghost resist that doesn't just fold to draco, can heal bell for team support, and use foul play well to punish setup sweepers
 
I would also like to chime in a bit as someone who mostly plays stall. It definitely seems to be rising in popularity lately, and some interesting things are being done with it.


This is a really solid way to play, it's just quite important to note that opposing corviknight are a nightmare for these builds, and you really need some way to stop them from just clearing your hazards constantly. Taunt probably works best here. The reason for spikes no defog is not only that you win games when you get to stack them, but also that it kinda functions like defog in that your answer to opposing hazards is to just set more hazards than them, thereby forcing THEM to remove hazards.


I really have mixed opinions on shedinja stall. It might be the best stall build on average(I'm not 100% sure this is true or will continue being true as it needs a specific meta situation to thrive) , but it is also by far the most matchup fishy type of stall build there is, since some opposing mons on the preview just mean you will be playing 5v6 this game(think hippo and alolatales). So while it can be very strong, the polarizing nature of its MUs is a big turn off for me personally.


I'm gonna be a bit salty rn, but I dunno how much of an innovation dnite can be considered on stall since I have ben screeching for people to use it on stall basically since crown tundra came out, and it's really great. It can really handle some things that are notoriously scary for stall, like tran and magnezone well, and it has that toxapex like quality that it's pretty good to throw out to scout when it's full health since it can probably take most hits reasonably then. It's also very easy to fit on teams owing to it's high versatility of sets from heal bell, defog, to even countersweeping, as well as great coverage options on both sides of the spectrum.

and speaking of dnite:

focusing specifically on sun, specially defensive nite with EQ/heal bell/roost/flamethrower is one of the best answers stall has for sun, since it beats every one of the most common sun mons, with multiscale and resisting fire, it can tank eruption easily and answer with EQ, sun boosted flamethrower in sun 2hkos venu while it's immune to or resists everything it can throw out bar the currently unpopular sludge bomb, and it wins 1v1s with victini, darmanitan and torkoal. If you play it well and keep it from getting overwhelmed, which can admittedly be hard since you need it to check a lot of stuff and keep it healthy and free of status, it can single handedly solo sun.

some other things for stall that bear mentioning are protect, which can be another way of easing FS pressure when used on certain pokemon that take FS well, as well as :umbreon: which has a pretty good mixed bulk with 95/110/130, is a great user of the aforementioned protect, offers a rare ghost resist that doesn't just fold to draco, can heal bell for team support, and use foul play well to punish setup sweepers
I agree with everything you said. Dragonite is just a great pokemon to use on stall providing an immediate Tran check, possible double defogger, and possible heal bell user. Although the focus on stalls are mainly on Skarmory now, Dnite stall is still great and like you said, it can shut down sun teams with a combination of flamethrower and earthquake to beat Heatran, Venusaur, and Victini. It single handedly takes down teams that rely on Magnezone and offers great bulk in the current meta game. :Dragonite:

Shedinja stall is very matchup fishy at times and it doesn’t completely solve future sight. But other people (including myself) have been able to get to high peaks with it (1800+). However, there’s almost no way of playing around your weaknesses with Shedinja stall. So if you hit a bad matchup, you’re out, but it seems to work otherwise. :Shedinja:

Stall probably has the most potential right now of any playstyle right now. There’s so many new ideas that we may be able to get working. I will be trying Umbreon stall. Protect beats future sight, but not Urshifu-R so maybe add a Dnite to go with it. We’ll see what happens.

Other Pokemon to try on stall
:mew: :sylveon: :Heatran:(balloon) :tyranitar:(rest) :suicune: :azumarill:
 
On the topic of Stall, a tech I really liked seeing was Air Balloon Ditto.

:ss/(Ditto):
Ditto @ Air Balloon
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Transform

I don't need to repeat how much Stall hates Heatran, but this set completely shuts it down, being immune to both Magma Storm and Earth Power and forcing the opposing Tran out with its own EP. This also lets you scout opposing sets to know the appropriate counterplay, but sadly it doesn't give the function of handling setup sweepers near-guaranteedly. Completely neutering the biggest threat to stall teams is definitely worth the teamslot though.
 
Shedinja stall is very matchup fishy at times and it doesn’t completely solve future sight. But other people (including myself) have been able to get to high peaks with it (1800+). However, there’s almost no way of playing around your weaknesses with Shedinja stall. So if you hit a bad matchup, you’re out, but it seems to work otherwise. :Shedinja:
yeah, I agree its really good,and currently maybe the best iteration of stall(the level of tuning its creator put into it is just out of this world), not playing it is mostly just personal preference, since I personally prefer teams that have a 60% chance to beat everything(or close to), rather than having 100% against some teams, and 30% against others

On the topic of Stall, a tech I really liked seeing was Air Balloon Ditto.

:ss/(Ditto):
Ditto @ Air Balloon
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Transform

I don't need to repeat how much Stall hates Heatran, but this set completely shuts it down, being immune to both Magma Storm and Earth Power and forcing the opposing Tran out with its own EP. This also lets you scout opposing sets to know the appropriate counterplay, but sadly it doesn't give the function of handling setup sweepers near-guaranteedly. Completely neutering the biggest threat to stall teams is definitely worth the teamslot though.
this set is pretty neat, but it relies on opposing heatran being flash fire AND not having heavy slam, which is not guaranteed, and once your baloon is popped it cannot reliably do normal ditto stuff. it still has its place tho(namely pp stalling corvi anf the likes).
few notes here: it runs full spa investment if it ever copies FS, and it needs to be shiny to force opposing dittos to transform into it to reduce transform pp to 5
 

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