Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Ribombee

I'm back again with another unconventional pick, but this has probably been my favorite lower-tier Pokemon to use in OU over the last couple of days. So, why would I use Rimbombee in OU? It's PU for a reason, right? Absolutely understandable why on the surface, its Special Attack seems lackluster compared to the Pokemon it's competing against, and its Bug / Fairy type combination is a mixed bag both offensively or defensively thanks to common weaknesses to types like Flying and Rock, along with 25% chip. However, Ribombee has some absolutely crucial tools that give it a unique role compression niche of being both a physical attacker lure along with a reliable webs setter that is immune to Fake Out and King's Rock flinches. Let's look at some of Ribombee's strengths.

Ribombee Positives:

- Has access to the unique combination of Sticky Web and Trick (or Switcheroo if you so choose), which only Orbeetle has (and due to his stats cannot take advantage of this).
- Base 124 speed is higher than most of OU and hits crucial speed tiers, only being outsped by Weavile (if it has a Jolly nature, not Adamant), Dragapult, Tapu Koko, and Zeraora, meaning it's the fastest Sticky Web user in the game and faster than most Pokemon it tries to Trick.
- Ribombee's ability Shield Dust means that it cannot be affected by Fake Out leads or faster Pokemon holding King's Rock (in addition to being immune to secondary effects from moves that cause secondary statuses), and the only faster Pokemon with Taunt is Tapu Koko, meaning Ribombee is almost assured to get Sticky Webs up with very rare exceptions. This also means that it's more reliable than Shuckle at getting Webs up.
- Access to Trick with that base speed stat means that Ribombee means with an item such as Flame Orb, Ribombee can usually both set up webs and cripple an opposing physical attacker (or Pokemon in general depending on the item you Trick over)
- Bug / Fairy typing has specific but very strong situational uses in OU's metagame, being immune to Dragon-type attacks, along with resisting Ground, Fighting, Bug, Grass, and Dark, which are all extremely common attacking types in the metagame and help to offset Ribombee's lack of bulk with some decent defensive utility.
- Ribombee has access to a wide variety of additional useful support tools such as Roost, Aromatherapy, Quiver Dance, Defog, Infestation, Tailwind, Toxic, Light Screen, Fake Tears, Reflect, Stun Spore, and U-Turn. If you wish to go offensively, Quiver Dance sets can be deadly with Moonblast, Bug Buzz, and Energy Ball maiming most of the tier super effectively.
- STAB Moonblast hits harder than you think it does, and means a lot of Pokemon may be switched in carelessly, or it would make a more seasoned opponent question their switch-in if they have knowledge of damage calculations, meaning you're put at an advantage if you use the prediction correctly.

Ribombee @ Flame Orb
Ability: Shield Dust
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Trick
- Moonblast
- Aromatherapy / Roost / Tailwind / U-Turn​

The set is pretty straightforward, set up Webs or cripple a predicted incoming physical attacker such as Garchomp with Trick and Flame Orb, once you've done these steps, this will put you in a prime position to take advantage of your opponent's double trouble. Moonblast is there for a reliable attacking move in the unlikely event that you get Taunted before you can get your Webs or Trick set off, and Moonblast will still hit certain Pokemon decently hard even with only 8 EVs invested.

8 SpA Ribombee Moonblast vs. 164 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 436-516 (119.1 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
8 SpA Ribombee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 300-354 (87.9 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
8 SpA Ribombee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 252-296 (79.4 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 SpA Ribombee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 228-270 (54.2 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 SpA Ribombee Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 180-212 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
8 SpA Ribombee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 224-266 (79.7 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 SpA Ribombee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hawlucha: 288-338 (96.9 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

The last move slot is dependent on your team's specific needs. If you need a cleric, run Aromatherapy, if you need to keep Ribombee around for longer, run Roost, if you want to boost up the speed of other members of your team, run Tailwind, if you want to bee-line it out of there on a predicted switch, run U-Turn. Ribombee has plenty of fantastic options to choose from other than the four I listed, and you could slot in either another support or offensive move of your choice.

Team Support Options

Ribombee absolutely appreciates Rapid Spin support from Pokemon such as Excadrill or Regieleki as if you're not running Roost, Ribombee can be worn down quickly, and utilizing Defog isn't exactly wise when you're trying to keep Webs up on the opponent's side of the field. In addition, Ribombee partners well with Pokemon such as Heatran, as it covers a lot of Ribombee's weak spots and the two can even double hazard set in tandem with one another (I've personally found that both Scarf Heatran and Magma Storm Rocks Heatran are fantastic in particular when it comes to Ribombee). Garchomp is another fantastic partner for the same reason, it resists Rock-type moves (which are the most commonly brought out to deal with against Ribombee), and it punishes Physical attackers with bulkier sets, Rough Skin and Rocky Helmet (while also having the potential to do the same double hazard shtick that I talked about with Heatran). Regenerator Pokemon such as Toxapex, Slowbro, Slowking, and Galarian Slowking are also great options as they each can take care of different needs that Ribombee would have trouble with (Haze Toxapex stops setup sweepers for example).

If you need a cute little bee to tear apart Dragons and cripple your opponent's team, consider Ribombee!
 
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xXxJenniferxXx love the ribombee suggestion, a few things come to mind
  • due to being very close to hitting important KO benchmarks, you can reduce speed EVs a little to our speed tornadus, and put the balance into spA. This lets you have better odds when revenging urshifu/Garchomp/adamant Weavile/etc
  • Ribombee typically needs to show up earlier in a match. This is obviously very predictable, so a lot of teams will be able to play around it, e.g. u turn lead, switch out to corviknight
  • Because of the fact that ribombee is super predictable, and almost every steel type can come in, example corviknight, heatran, I found the most success with u turn and a mono attack (moonblast)
  • Flame orb is fun, but it’s kinda awkward where you want to use it as early as possible, when you can still bluff a focus sashed Webster, and burning a corviknight or toxapex or another common switch in is pretty cool, but a mispredict and the set is revealed and suddenly its a 5v6, where seeing ribombee is an easy switch in for their resist.
  • Three attacks is too easy to find resists for, the quoted 3: buzz/energy ball/moon last are all resisted by fire, steel and poison types. It’s also very easy to find switch ins
  • Mono attacking is decent because it threatens revenge against the threats you listed, and that leaves 2 options for status moves. Webs are very good, but not super essential, truck and stunspore is a nice combo to buy some hax. I can’t think of many Pokémon to revenge with bug buzz or energy ball that are worth sacking utility from u turn, status moves, or webs. U turn is my favourite because it performs against all teams, even ones with blissey/aromatherapy/heatran to absorb status or moves. Just run things that love getting a free turn on these. Max speed Conkeldurr was a fun UU threat that got me to top 30 OU with ribombee in the past


  • In short, spreading paralysis, maybe squeezing in a web, or tricking a key switch in are cool. Your moves have to plan for the extremely common switch ins.
  • Ribombee is like a whimsicott with slightly less status options to Harrass a team, but with webs.
 
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xXxJenniferxXx love the ribombee suggestion, a few things come to mind
  • due to being very close to hitting important KO benchmarks, you can reduce speed EVs a little to our speed tornadus, and put the balance into spA. This lets you have better odds when revenging urshifu/Garchomp/adamant Weavile/etc
  • Ribombee typically needs to show up earlier in a match. This is obviously very predictable, so a lot of teams will be able to play around it, e.g. u turn lead, switch out to corviknight
  • Because of the fact that ribombee is super predictable, and almost every steel type can come in, example corviknight, heatran, I found the most success with u turn and a mono attack (moonblast)
  • Flame orb is fun, but it’s kinda awkward where you want to use it as early as possible, when you can still bluff a focus sashed Webster, and burning a corviknight or toxapex or another common switch in is pretty cool, but a mispredict and the set is revealed and suddenly its a 5v6, where seeing ribombee is an easy switch in for their resist.
  • Three attacks is too easy to find resists for, the quoted 3: buzz/energy ball/moon last are all resisted by fire, steel and poison types. It’s also very easy to find switch ins
  • Mono attacking is decent because it threatens revenge against the threats you listed, and that leaves 2 options for status moves. Webs are very good, but not super essential, truck and stunspore is a nice combo to buy some hax. I can’t think of many Pokémon to revenge with bug buzz or energy ball that are worth sacking utility from u turn, status moves, or webs. U turn is my favourite because it performs against all teams, even ones with blissey/aromatherapy/heatran to absorb status or moves. Just run things that love getting a free turn on these. Max speed Conkeldurr was a fun UU threat that got me to top 30 OU with ribombee in the past


  • In short, spreading paralysis, maybe squeezing in a web, or tricking a key switch in are cool. Your moves have to plan for the extremely common switch ins.
  • Ribombee is like a whimsicott with slightly less status options to Harrass a team, but with webs.
These are all extremely good points, and for the most part, I agree! The main reason I've been using Webs was that my team composition is reliant on it, but the approach you're talking about also seems far better for teams that aren't geared for webs (aka a lot of them), for reference I was actually also running Banded Scrappy Sirfetch'd on this current Webs team.

I'm gonna see if I can run the Ribombee you're talking about on another one of my teams that needs it, thanks for your post!
 
Not trying to interrupt any topics y’all are discussing but I wanted to do a little experiment. I’ve been wanting to know for a while what stall team is most efficient based on the usage of their auto lose matchups, so I took some teams which represented a good range of stall builds, looked on Pikanalytics, and posted the results here.

So here’s how it’s going to work. I’m going to list some teams which I’m going to look at, find their auto lose matchups, and find the probability of running into one. These weaknesses can be combinations, or specific threats. The team with the lowest probability will be the most efficient, and the team with the highest will be the least efficient. For quality purposes, I ignored any stall style/team weak to Heatran because a stall that’s weak to Heatran is bad. I also ignored any hazard weak stall teams because Corviknight is also common. I’m going to be explaining how I picked the threats for each one.

(I’m not going to factor in taunt NP Tornadus, Crawdaunt, Adamant LO Weavile, Arctozolt, and other stall matchups that 90% of stalls are weak to. Some of these threats are dropping in viability like Crawdaunt, but others like Arctozolt are rising.)

If a threat can be safely played around in some way, I won’t add it to the list. These Pokémon may force non locked matchups (matchups where it’s possible for your team to be broke), but it will not be completely impossible for you to win against them. I may make another post including these threats that can be played around but for now, I want to keep only the ones where if your opponent doesn’t make any mistakes, they will win. Now, here are the teams.


Teams

:Toxapex::buzzwole::garchomp::reuniclus::Clefable::Corviknight: AV Reun stall by ??? (random team that I saw win crazy matchups)
:Toxapex::chansey::Corviknight::moltres::shedinja::Clefable: - Safety Googles Shedinja stall by Htcl
:Toxapex::scizor::Hippowdon::skarmory::tapu Koko::Clefable: - ABR hazard stack (Not a stall team but it has 5 stall mons.)
:Toxapex::tornadus-therian::Clefable::Corviknight::Kyurem::Hippowdon: - Kyurem semi stall by Pierrick
:Blissey::Toxapex::Corviknight::Clefable::Hippowdon::tornadus-therian: - Blimax spam team
:blissey::Toxapex::Skarmory::clefable::gastrodon::Shedinja: - Thats quite unfor Shedinja stall
:Quagsire::chansey::moltres::Corviknight::reuniclus::Toxapex: - Quaglover stall
:blissey::umbreon::mew::garchomp::tornadus-therian::Toxapex: - Umbreon stall by PedroGreg

Again, I’m going to be explaining every auto lose matchup I find for each team. Keep in mind, there are many team combinations that can force non locked matchups against them, but as long as you don’t run into an auto lose matchup, you still have a good chance of beating them. Alright now let’s finally get into the threats for each.

AV Reun Stall - :dracozolt: :Tapu fini: (whirlpool) :thundurus-therian:

There isn‘t much to criticize about this stall team. Future sight is beaten, and things like Hex Twave Dragapult are able to be played around with AV Reun and Spdef Pex. Howevef, it has an iffy MU against Dracozolt, Whirlpool Fini, and Thundurus-T.

Safety Googles Shedinja Stall -:dracozolt: :mew:(taunt)

Another good one. I’d say Moltres is enough to beat Heatran since it can defog the rocks and force it out. Hyper offense is a problem since you can’t defog the hazards, but other than that it seems fine. (Banded ttar and SD Bulu are winnable matchups with leftovers clef and pressure corv for the stone edges. Not going to factor those.)

ABR Hazard Stack - :magnezone: :cloyster:

Many difficult matchups are winnable by using Koko to venge kill. It keeps the offensive pressure but falls a little short against some setup like Cloyster. Screen Pex beats future sight and Scizor beats Kyurem and Lele. Rocky helmet is clearly better here for Skarmory so Magnezone is a problem.

Kyurem semi stall- :tapu lele: :kyurem: :tyranitar:(Specs and CB)

Solid team when it comes to most matchups, but it loses to specs Kyurem and Lele. Banded ttar is also a problem because it forces a Torn T and Kyurem out, and it can really slow it down. Sub roost Kyurem handles future sight.

Blimax spam team - :melmetal: :tyranitar:(both banded)

I may be biased on this one but if you play correctly and ultilize Tornadus-T and Hippowdon, you can beat all forms of Future Sight. It loses to banded melm and ttar, but the other weaknesses can be played around or venge killed.

Shedinja Stall - :tyranitar: :hippowdon:+:Tapu-Lele: or :Kyurem: :ninetales-alola:

There’s not really much to say about this stall team. It loses to hail and sand setters like normal Shedinja stall teams. Hazards can still be overwhelming at times and SD Kartana is a threat, but these can be played around.

Quag lover stall- :slowking-galar: :slowbro: :slowking: :Tapu Fini: (Whirlpool) :mew:

This team loses to future sight and mew hyper offense. How does that preform? Let’s see.

Umbreon Stall - :Kyurem: :Tapu Lele: :dracozolt:

Super good stall team. Taunt Mew here is excellent, the sweep prevention is good, but it loses to Kyurem and Lele.

RNG Calcs (1695+ stats)

Mon MU RNG is in the order that I listed them

(2) AV Reun - 2.3%, 2.36%, 0.88%
(3) SG Shedinja stall - 2.3%, 4.27%
(7) ABR Hazard stack - 8.34%, 5.43%
(5) Kyurem semi stall - 5.26%, 4.89% , 1.55%
(1) Blimax spam team - 2.46%, 1.55%
(4) Shedinja Stall - 6.21%, (less than 0.40% for both) , 2.96%
(8) Quag lover stall - 8.22% , 5.87% , 8.81% , 2.36% , 4.27%
(6) Umbreon stall - 4.89% , 5.26% , 2.3%

So those are the RNG stats for a fighting chance of winning for each team. There’s a lot to talk about here but if you do the math, the Quag lover stall is the least efficient, and the Blimax spam team is the most efficient (if you don’t count it as future sight weak). Letme know if I got anything wrong. I rounded the values to the nearest hundredth.

Result Analysis

What really surprised me was how much future sight factored in. Even if you can’t beat Urshifu + future sight, you need something that can beat everything else because it’s huge and almost as important as dealing with Heatran. Addtionally, Magnezone, Tapu Lele, and Kyurem also make a big factor in the RNG to win a game, so don’t ignore those.

So when building a stall team, you should try to have a way to beat Kyurem and Lele, future sight, Magnezone, and constant hazard stacking. The top 4 (except the safety goggles Shedinja stall) deal with all of these. The ones at the bottom however lack on checking these things and have higher RNG to win a game.

It’s really nice how even the teams at the bottom of this experiment are still good against most of the meta, and stall is definitely proven to be a lot better now. So that’s all I’m going to say about this for now. If you have any other thoughts, let me know! Try this on your own stall teams if you want.

Also let me know if you happen to find a stall/semi stall team better than the top 2 ones for this experiment. Would greatly appreciate it and I’d love to look at them!

Happy stalling!
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
Not trying to interrupt any topics y’all are discussing but I wanted to do a little experiment. I’ve been wanting to know for a while what stall team is most efficient based on the usage of their auto lose matchups, so I took some teams which represented a good range of stall builds, looked on Pikanalytics, and posted the results here.

So here’s how it’s going to work. I’m going to list some teams which I’m going to look at, find their auto lose matchups, and find the probability of running into one. These weaknesses can be combinations, or specific threats. The team with the lowest probability will be the most efficient, and the team with the highest will be the least efficient. For quality purposes, I ignored any stall style/team weak to Heatran because a stall that’s weak to Heatran is bad. I also ignored any hazard weak stall teams because Corviknight is also common. I’m going to be explaining how I picked the threats for each one.

(I’m not going to factor in taunt NP Tornadus, Crawdaunt, Adamant LO Weavile, Arctozolt, and other stall matchups that 90% of stalls are weak to. Some of these threats are dropping in viability like Crawdaunt, but others like Arctozolt are rising.)

If a threat can be safely played around in some way, I won’t add it to the list. These Pokémon may force non locked matchups (matchups where it’s possible for your team to be broke), but it will not be completely impossible for you to win against them. I may make another post including these threats that can be played around but for now, I want to keep only the ones where if your opponent doesn’t make any mistakes, they will win. Now, here are the teams.


Teams

:Toxapex::buzzwole::garchomp::reuniclus::Clefable::Corviknight: AV Reun stall by ??? (random team that I saw win crazy matchups)
:Toxapex::chansey::Corviknight::moltres::shedinja::Clefable: - Safety Googles Shedinja stall by Htcl
:Toxapex::scizor::Hippowdon::skarmory::tapu Koko::Clefable: - ABR hazard stack (Not a stall team but it has 5 stall mons.)
:Toxapex::tornadus-therian::Clefable::Corviknight::Kyurem::Hippowdon: - Kyurem semi stall by Pierrick
:Blissey::Toxapex::Corviknight::Clefable::Hippowdon::tornadus-therian: - Blimax spam team
:blissey::Toxapex::Skarmory::clefable::gastrodon::Shedinja: - Thats quite unfor Shedinja stall
:Quagsire::chansey::moltres::Corviknight::reuniclus::Toxapex: - Quaglover stall
:blissey::umbreon::mew::garchomp::tornadus-therian::Toxapex: - Umbreon stall by PedroGreg

Again, I’m going to be explaining every auto lose matchup I find for each team. Keep in mind, there are many team combinations that can force non locked matchups against them, but as long as you don’t run into an auto lose matchup, you still have a good chance of beating them. Alright now let’s finally get into the threats for each.

AV Reun Stall - :dracozolt: :Tapu fini: (whirlpool) :thundurus-therian:

There isn‘t much to criticize about this stall team. Future sight is beaten, and things like Hex Twave Dragapult are able to be played around with AV Reun and Spdef Pex. Howevef, it has an iffy MU against Dracozolt, Whirlpool Fini, and Thundurus-T.

Safety Googles Shedinja Stall -:dracozolt: :mew:(taunt)

Another good one. I’d say Moltres is enough to beat Heatran since it can defog the rocks and force it out. Hyper offense is a problem since you can’t defog the hazards, but other than that it seems fine. (Banded ttar and SD Bulu are winnable matchups with leftovers clef and pressure corv for the stone edges. Not going to factor those.)

ABR Hazard Stack - :magnezone: :cloyster:

Many difficult matchups are winnable by using Koko to venge kill. It keeps the offensive pressure but falls a little short against some setup like Cloyster. Screen Pex beats future sight and Scizor beats Kyurem and Lele. Rocky helmet is clearly better here for Skarmory so Magnezone is a problem.

Kyurem semi stall- :tapu lele: :kyurem: :tyranitar:(Specs and CB)

Solid team when it comes to most matchups, but it loses to specs Kyurem and Lele. Banded ttar is also a problem because it forces a Torn T and Kyurem out, and it can really slow it down. Sub roost Kyurem handles future sight.

Blimax spam team - :melmetal: :tyranitar:(both banded)

I may be biased on this one but if you play correctly and ultilize Tornadus-T and Hippowdon, you can beat all forms of Future Sight. It loses to banded melm and ttar, but the other weaknesses can be played around or venge killed.

Shedinja Stall - :tyranitar: :hippowdon:+:Tapu-Lele: or :Kyurem: :ninetales-alola:

There’s not really much to say about this stall team. It loses to hail and sand setters like normal Shedinja stall teams. Hazards can still be overwhelming at times and SD Kartana is a threat, but these can be played around.

Quag lover stall- :slowking-galar: :slowbro: :slowking: :Tapu Fini: (Whirlpool) :mew:

This team loses to future sight and mew hyper offense. How does that preform? Let’s see.

Umbreon Stall - :Kyurem: :Tapu Lele: :dracozolt:

Super good stall team. Taunt Mew here is excellent, the sweep prevention is good, but it loses to Kyurem and Lele.

RNG Calcs (1695+ stats)

Mon MU RNG is in the order that I listed them

(2) AV Reun - 2.3%, 2.36%, 0.88%
(3) SG Shedinja stall - 2.3%, 4.27%
(7) ABR Hazard stack - 8.34%, 5.43%
(5) Kyurem semi stall - 5.26%, 4.89% , 1.55%
(1) Blimax spam team - 2.46%, 1.55%
(4) Shedinja Stall - 6.21%, (less than 0.40% for both) , 2.96%
(8) Quag lover stall - 8.22% , 5.87% , 8.81% , 2.36% , 4.27%
(6) Umbreon stall - 4.89% , 5.26% , 2.3%

So those are the RNG stats for a fighting chance of winning for each team. There’s a lot to talk about here but if you do the math, the Quag lover stall is the least efficient, and the Blimax spam team is the most efficient (if you don’t count it as future sight weak). Letme know if I got anything wrong. I rounded the values to the nearest hundredth.

Result Analysis

What really surprised me was how much future sight factored in. Even if you can’t beat Urshifu + future sight, you need something that can beat everything else because it’s huge and almost as important as dealing with Heatran. Addtionally, Magnezone, Tapu Lele, and Kyurem also make a big factor in the RNG to win a game, so don’t ignore those.

So when building a stall team, you should try to have a way to beat Kyurem and Lele, future sight, Magnezone, and constant hazard stacking. The top 4 (except the safety goggles Shedinja stall) deal with all of these. The ones at the bottom however lack on checking these things and have higher RNG to win a game.

It’s really nice how even the teams at the bottom of this experiment are still good against most of the meta, and stall is definitely proven to be a lot better now. So that’s all I’m going to say about this for now. If you have any other thoughts, let me know! Try this on your own stall teams if you want.

Also let me know if you happen to find a stall/semi stall team better than the top 2 ones for this experiment. Would greatly appreciate it and I’d love to look at them!

Happy stalling!
SD adamant Landorus-t with max attack and smack down has a pretty decent chance to give an autolose to nearly all stall teams listed in your post (and that ABR team is absolutely a stall team as traditional as any on the list, and a very good one). This set is kind of hard to fit onto non-screens teams, but you will always be one crit on unaware clefable away from an outright win or one or two predicts away from causing unaware clefable to run out of softboiled pp, so if you follow it up with another pokemon that is only covered by their clefable you have a good chance of cheesing these matchups.
 
Da stall masta 999 can you please describe your methods a but more? At the beginning of you post, you mention you'd be looking at the chance to encounter various pokemon, but, later, you describe the "math" as the "RNG stats for a fighting chance of winning".

If the latter, how is that being determined?
 
Da stall masta 999 can you please describe your methods a but more? At the beginning of you post, you mention you'd be looking at the chance to encounter various pokemon, but, later, you describe the "math" as the "RNG stats for a fighting chance of winning".

If the latter, how is that being determined?
I got the values for the RNG stats pretty much all on Pikanalytics. If the auto lose matchup was a single pokemon by itself like Heatran for example, it would be the entire Pokémon’s usage which is 20.53% for Heatran. So another example, Dracozolt which is listed a few times, would be 2.3% since that’s its usage, and it’s an auto lose matchup for team.

If the auto lose matchup is not a Pokemon by itself, but a specific set on it, I would multiply a key move on the set being used by the total Pokémon’s usage. To show how this works, let’s take hyper offense Mew for example. Mew itself has a usage of 7.19%, but the team loses to hyper offense Mew with taunt, not every single viable Mew set. So we multiply the usage of taunt on Mew (which is 59.45%), by the total usage of Mew and we get a 4.27% chance to run into hyper offense Mew in total.

There weren’t a lot of combinations because I only picked teams that could tolerate hazards to some extent, but in addition to that Pokémon or specific set for that Pokémon, we just multiply it by the teammate’s usage. But this doesn’t work, right? For example, Landorus-T may be used with Corviknight more than Corviknight is used with Landorus-T. So what do we do? Well, the larger value would obviously be more reliable since it’s the more likely chance anyway, but for the combination I calced (which would be Hippowdon + Specs Lele or Kyurem), I just estimated since it wouldn’t be that much since specs Lele is 5.26%, and Hippowdon as a partner isn’t even listed so at worst I would assume 10%. But I highly doubt specifically specs Lele is used that much with Hippowdon so I just put 0.40%. It’s hard to get an exact number for these types of combinations but in short, it can’t be more than about 0.50%.


SD adamant Landorus-t with max attack and smack down has a pretty decent chance to give an autolose to nearly all stall teams listed in your post (and that ABR team is absolutely a stall team as traditional as any on the list, and a very good one). This set is kind of hard to fit onto non-screens teams, but you will always be one crit on unaware clefable away from an outright win or one or two predicts away from causing unaware clefable to run out of softboiled pp, so if you follow it up with another pokemon that is only covered by their clefable you have a good chance of cheesing these matchups.
Yes let’s add smack down max atk Landorus-T to some of them, but it’s kinda complicated. Just add the entire set right? No, in reality it would be much harder to figure exactly how to add this.

Smack down Adamant Landorus-T has about a 6.6% chance to 2HKO Clef each time on the switch when you check it with your steelbird (not counting leftovers).
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO

And looking at crits to break past Clefable, there would be about a 44% chance of surviving all 16 earthquakes with no crit not including leftovers and occasional predictions you can make to Skarmory/Corviknight.

But what about soft sand?

Soft sand obviously breaks past Clefable, but since it can’t heal you can venge kill it unless it’s double dance no substitute.
252+ Atk Soft Sand Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And if it hasn’t set up yet with substitute, Chomp can run a little bit more speed and trade for it by using toxic. Umbreon can also trade for it and OHKO with Foul Play at +2.

+2 252+ Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Landorus-Therian: 399-469 (125 - 147%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Soft Sand Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 313-370 (79.4 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


So there’s a lot that I need to value in here for smack down Landorus-T but it can take down a lot of them with the right set. Thanks for pointing it out! I may decide to make it all just soft sand Landorus-T. I’m still figuring out what to do here.
 
Hey everyone, I'm back again with another niche Pokemon that I've had a lot of OU success with lately, Amoonguss.

Amoonguss

You're probably thinking, why use this Pokemon in OU? Hello, Toxapex, anyone? While Toxapex is admittedly far better than Amoonguss in a general sense (base stats come to mind more than anything here), but Toxapex does not have the specific role compression that Amoonguss has, nor does it have specific key traits, moves, and defensive perks that Amoonguss has in comparison. In addition, Amoonguss has a key edge regarding dismantling opposing team synergy that Toxapex simply cannot do. Let's roll out some of the positives of the unamused-looking mushroom Pokemon, we'll then dive into a set I've been using frequently, along with other options in its arsenal.

Amoonguss's Positive Traits

- Grass / Poison actually has a unique defensive utility in some aspects to differentiate itself from Water / Poison in the current meta. While having Ice and Flying-type weaknesses isn't fun, it trades this for a crucial resistance to Electric-type attacks, and neutrality to Ground-type attacks (such as Landorus-T's Earthquake). It also means that Amoonguss is able to completely sit on Pokemon that Toxapex can't sit on, such as Tapu Koko (that lack Brave Bird) and Swampert.

- Amoonguss has the ability Regenerator like Toxapex for longevity, and they're both geared towards punishing physical attackers, but Amoonguss arguably does this even better in some regards. Clear Smog to shut down setup sweepers means that Amoonguss is not complete Taunt bait like Haze Toxapex is, and can slowly wear down opposing setup sweepers a little easier than Toxapex can.

- It is an excellent lure for Future Sight spam teams, as with the tiniest bit of Spe investment, Spore shuts down the Slowtwins and G-Slowking, as most players expect Amoonguss to fully spec into Bulk, and think that due to resisting both of Amoonguss's STABS, they can't be touched.

- In addition to this, Amoonguss has access to Foul Play which punishes Pokemon like Dragapult (especially Physical Dragon Darts builds) for switching in, as no matter what the set, it is always cleanly 2HKO'd by Foul Play, and on Physical builds, it has a chance to OHKO.

0- Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 182-216 (57.4 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 272-322 (85.8 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (Keep in mind, Foul Play uses the opponent's attack stat)

- Access to the 100% accurate sleep move Spore means that it is actually more reliable in dishing out status and shutting down a threat than Toxapex is, and in some cases can completely shut down an opposing Pokemon more effectively, as Amoonguss doesn't have to rely on 30% chance Scald burns or Baneful Bunker prediction to incapacitate an opponent.

- Thanks to better offensive stats (base 85 Attack and Special Attack) and some quirky movepool choices, Amoonguss can be relatively unpredictable despite its shallow movepool, such as a completely uninvested Stomping Tantrum cleanly 2HKO'ing Offensive Heatran variants on a predicted switch-in, and having a chance to 2HKO HP invested variants.

0 Atk Amoonguss Stomping Tantrum vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 180-216 (55.7 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Amoonguss Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 180-216 (46.6 - 55.9%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Set I've Been Testing

Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 188 Def / 64 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Clear Smog
- Foul Play
- Protect / Synthesis / Energy Ball​

Spore, Clear Smog, and Foul Play along with Regenerator are the crux of this set for the reasons I've stated above. The last slot is filler based on your specific needs, the three best options I'd recommend are Protect, Synthesis, or Energy Ball. Protect allows for crucial scouting and eases the burden of prediction a little, while Synthesis provides reliable recovery (but is not as necessary due to Regenerator), while Energy Ball allows for a more powerful STAB attack to be used and nails the previously mentioned Swampert. The effort values are specifically set to hit certain benchmarks, such as 64 Special Defense allowing Amoonguss to narrowly avoid a 2HKO from Scarf Dragapult's Flamethrower.

252 SpA Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Amoonguss: 182-216 (42.1 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

The very slight 4 Speed EVs are to outspeed base 30s that almost never invest into Speed (Specifically the base 30 Speed Slowbro, Slowking, and G-Slowking come into mind, with the exception of G-Slowbro's Quick Draw, which is extremely niche and not placed in OU as the other three that I mentioned). This allows Spore to take the Slowmons out of commission and potentially prevent a Future Sight, which can put a gaping hole in your opponent's team synergy.

Great Partners for Amoonguss

Blissey is an excellent partner for Amoonguss, as it not only can handle Special Attackers such as Heatran that (barring niche Physical based sets) Amoonguss doesn't want to stay in on, along with Wish passing, healing off any status that Amoonguss might have incurred, etc. Blissey is also relatively easy to slot onto a variety of teams, so you shouldn't have issues here.

Do Corviknight and Skarmory have you feeling as unamused as Amoonguss's facial expression? Magnezone is absolutely fantastic for dealing with those two and can wear down additionally problematic Steel-type Pokemon through repeated VoltTurn combinations, allowing you to keep the momentum going even when you're forced to back out of Amoonguss.

Rillaboom is another fantastic partner for Amoonguss as the Grassy Terrain boost it provides not only provides Amoonguss with additional longevity, but it counteracts any existing terrains that can stop Amoonguss's Spore antics, and boosts up the power of Amoonguss's STAB Energy Ball (or Seed Bomb for Physical variants). In addition to this, Earthquake is halved in damage output, meaning that Amoongus's neutrality to Ground-type attacks becomes even more relevant compared to Toxapex's weakness, as it essentially gives Amoongus another resistance.

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Amoonguss in Grassy Terrain: 85-102 (19.6 - 23.6%) -- possible 8HKO after Black Sludge recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

Give Amoonguss a try, you'll be pleasantly surprised at just how much he can do for your team!
 
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Blissey is an excellent partner for Amoonguss, as it not only can handle Special Attackers such as Heatran that (barring niche Physical based sets) Amoonguss doesn't want to stay in on, along with Wish passing, healing off any status that Amoonguss might have incurred, etc. Blissey is also relatively easy to slot onto a variety of teams, so you shouldn't have issues here.
I am unsure if Blissey is a good partner for Amoonguss, but if it is, being able to handle special attackers aint really a great reason.

Heatran wants to trap blissey. Tapu Lele has psyshock. Sub Roost Kyurem stalls it. Dragapult just u-turns out. Blacephalon/Gengar can trick. Hell, even Torn wants to knock off Blisseys HDB.

The only *super common* special attackers that Blissey can handle and that Amoonguss doesn't want anything to do with are Slowking G, Hydreigon, Volcarona, both Moltres and Zapdos (Note that Safeguard Volc, Nasty Plot Hydreigon exist but I am too lazy to calc).

On another note, the 4EV in Speed might help against Slowking G (if it's not min speed, but the ones running eq are) but don't do anything against Slowbro/Slowking because they usually run min speed with 0 IV (to get slow teleports).
 

Katy

You should know I'm never gonna change!
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Underrated Sets in the SSOU Metagame (and what they do)!

The Waters (Splish & Splash)

:tapu fini:
Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense
- Draining Kiss
- Stored Power

this set achieves basically the same as the calm mind set, boost tapu fini up and win games in the lategame, when every pokemon on the opposition is weakened. calm mind in conjunction with iron defense achieves, that tapu fini is able to break with stored power in its movepool, draining kiss is its stab of choice and helps it for having semi-longevity during the run. this set can easily abuse choice band urshifu-r and weavile as setup fodder in the later aspect. leftovers are its item of choice here. fire spin-hydreigon is an optimal partner to this set, as it can trap and remove ferrothorn, blissey, and toxapex.

:slowking:
Slowking @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Future Sight
- Scald
- Slack Off

basically a relic from other (lower) tiers in the past. but still a great way to deal hefty damage on foes. nasty plot achieves, that its future sight and scald are powered up. slack of is chosen as longevity option. it can abuse choice locked-tapu lele as setup fodder, it can also use slowbro as setup fodder. should be used carefully, but in overall a great, underrated option.

The Ice-Dragon (Kyurem)

:kyurem:
Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Rock Slide

issues with bulkarona? well no more. rock slide on kyurem covers this pokemon pretty well and can achieve the potential of killing it after a bit of chip damage inflicted upon volcarona. Ice beam and focus blast hit most of the targets in ou for neutral damage and with freeze-dry this pokemon can still go past most pokemon in the metagame.

The Washing Machine (Rotom-W)

:rotom-wash:
Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hydro Pump
- Discharge
- Dark Pulse

av galarking is a pain for this pokemon to deal with, but with this set, it can bypass it after some chip and with enough boosts, which nasty plot achieves it. discharge is capable of inflicting damage but also capable of having a great para-chance on opposing pokemon. it can abuse the likes of tornadus-t, landorus-t, and the steel-birds in corviknight and skarmory as setup fodder. the para-chance gives the rotom-w user also the advantage of having the ability of semi-speed control. lastly, dark pulse is chosen to bypass galarking, regular slowking, and it is able to hit dragapult for super effective damage. dark pulse gives it also coverage against ferrothorn and tangrowth.

Melt the Steel (Heatran)

:heatran:
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Burning Jealousy
- Earth Power
- Taunt
- Magma Storm

burn the jealousness! this set achieves that pokemon, which are boosted, are getting inflicted with a status condition, a burn, while its also able to inflict damage upon the opposition. such targets could be swords dance excadrill, swords dance landorus-t, nasty plot tornadus-t, and pokemon such as mew. which usually scare out heatran in the cases of excadrill, landorus-t, and mew. earth power + magma storm + taunt can still deal with toxapex.

hope you will have fun trying these sets out and thanks for reading! :blobwizard:
 
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Underrated Sets in the SSOU Metagame (and what they do)!

The Waters (Splish & Splash)

:tapu fini:
Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense
- Draining Kiss
- Stored Power

this set achieves basically the same as the calm mind set, boost tapu fini up and win games in the lategame, when every pokemon on the opposition is weakened. calm mind in conjunction with iron defense achieves, that tapu fini is able to break with stored power in its movepool, draining kiss is its stab of choice and helps it for having semi-longevity during the run. this set can easily abuse choice band urshifu-r and weavile as setup fodder in the later aspect. leftovers are its item of choice here. fire spin-hydreigon is an optimal partner to this set, as it can trap and remove ferrothorn, blissey, and toxapex.

:slowking:
Slowking @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Future Sight
- Scald
- Slack Off

basically a relic from other (lower) tiers in the past. but still a great way to deal hefty damage on foes. nasty plot achieves, that its future sight and scald are powered up. slack of is chosen as longevity option. it can abuse choice locked-tapu lele as setup fodder, it can also use slowbro as setup fodder. should be used carefully, but in overall a great, underrated option.

The Ice-Dragon (Kyurem)

:kyurem:
Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Rock Slide

issues with bulkarona? well no more. rock slide on kyurem covers this pokemon pretty well and can achieve the potential of killing it after a bit of chip damage inflicted upon volcarona. Ice beam and focus blast hit most of the targets in ou for neutral damage and with freeze-dry this pokemon can still go past most pokemon in the metagame.

The Washing Machine (Rotom-W)

:rotom-wash:
Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hydro Pump
- Discharge
- Dark Pulse

av galarking is a pain for this pokemon to deal with, but with this set, it can bypass it after some chip and with enough boosts, which nasty plot achieves it. discharge is capable of inflicting damage but also capable of having a great para-chance on opposing pokemon. it can abuse the likes of tornadus-t, landorus-t, and the steel-birds in corviknight and skarmory as setup fodder. the para-chance gives the rotom-w user also the advantage of having the ability of semi-speed control. lastly, dark pulse is chosen to bypass galarking, regular slowking, and it is able to hit dragapult for super effective damage. dark pulse gives it also coverage against ferrothorn and tangrowth.

Melt the Steel (Heatran)

:heatran:
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Burning Jealousy
- Earth Power
- Taunt
- Magma Storm

burn the jealousness! this set achieves that pokemon, which are boosted, are getting inflicted with a status condition, a burn, while its also able to inflict damage upon the opposition. such targets could be swords dance excadrill, swords dance landorus-t, nasty plot tornadus-t, and pokemon such as mew. which usually scare out heatran in the cases of excadrill, landorus-t, and mew. earth power + magma storm + taunt can still deal with toxapex.

hope you will have fun trying these sets out and thanks for reading! :blobwizard:
These are some absolutely spicy sets. Do you happen to have a set for the fire spin hydreigon? It's nice to see more trappers coming out the wood work (Was a fan of politoed on a semi stall team. Pretty big damage from whirlpools). Defo want to test that fini set out

On the rotom, is there much benefit for Dark Pulse over Shadow Ball? You trade 20% flinch and hitting switched in normals for less resistances and 20% spdef drop. One place it could shift a matchup is vs phys def unaware clefable. Shadow ball+ -1 hydro is a 64% chance to KO (Unless it has lefties, then its a 20% chance). Just an idea.
 
These are some absolutely spicy sets. Do you happen to have a set for the fire spin hydreigon? It's nice to see more trappers coming out the wood work (Was a fan of politoed on a semi stall team. Pretty big damage from whirlpools). Defo want to test that fini set out

On the rotom, is there much benefit for Dark Pulse over Shadow Ball? You trade 20% flinch and hitting switched in normals for less resistances and 20% spdef drop. One place it could shift a matchup is vs phys def unaware clefable. Shadow ball+ -1 hydro is a 64% chance to KO (Unless it has lefties, then its a 20% chance). Just an idea.
Hydreigon @ Grip Claw
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 28 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Spin
- Earth Power
- Roost
- Taunt
its pretty useless beyond toxapex but trapping toxapex is enough to be semi relevant at worst.
 
Hydreigon @ Grip Claw
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 28 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Spin
- Earth Power
- Roost
- Taunt
its pretty useless beyond toxapex but trapping toxapex is enough to be semi relevant at worst.
Idk about this one, but I've always gone Life Orb, super power, taunt, fire spin, draco meteor with speed and split attack invesent, with -Defense

You trap and kill toxapex, blissey, ttar, while still keeping enough damage to blow up urshifu. Don't remeber the exact amount ev.

Makes volcarona really easy to sweep with

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 228 Atk / 28 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Spin
- Superpower
- Draco Meteor
- Taunt
 
Idk about this one, but I've always gone Life Orb, super power, taunt, fire spin, draco meteor with speed and split attack invesent, with -Defense

You trap and kill toxapex, blissey, ttar, while still keeping enough damage to blow up urshifu. Don't remeber the exact amount ev.

Makes volcarona really easy to sweep with

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 228 Atk / 28 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Spin
- Superpower
- Draco Meteor
- Taunt
ye i do agree this one is a lot more conductive to like actually forcing progress, grip claw one is just the one i had in my builder at that moment in time tbh
 
Goodbye King’s Rock and GOOD RIDDANCE!!!
DD7BFD5E-F48B-4713-BDD3-D2766D28F9B5.gif


EDIT (so that this isn’t a one-liner post): Finally the days of Cloyster cheese are behind us (Weavile to a lesser extent). To see that King’s Rock Cloyster had higher usage in OLT than mons like Zeraora & the Slow twins is appalling. I’ve wanted this uncompetitive item banned since Gen 6. Finally the time has come. Thank you, Finch!
 
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Baloor

the boardwalk king
is a Tiering Contributor
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really curious to see where ho will go from here. while there was still some good hos that didnt run cloy, most of the "proven" and "good" hos heavily relied on cloy to make progress / be the end game boss that teams were forced to play around (which can make you fumble the bag sometimes). while i dont really see anything immediate that could come up and take its place, its still one more slot on ho to fill. perhaps we could see the rise of some of these sweepers that also mess up fat teams like haxorus, togekiss, and gengar to name a few or maybe some mons that were middle of the pack picks for ho become mainstream like; zeraora, blaziken, moltres-galar, melmetal and zapdos-galar. theres also a chance we could revert back to our primal ways of hawlucha screens (i do see this being the direction we go in for at least a bit). the future of ho is a really interesting topic to me and i'd like to see other peoples opinions.

other than ho being in a weird spot. balance seems to have gotten a bit better. cloyster was one of hos main balance breakers, since due to the nature of the archetype theyre a bit too passive to stop cloyster from setting up so it was always a few flinches away from winning. in my opinion balance has been in a weird spot on ladder lately due to the existence of these cloyster offenses, but with kings rock now banned thats not really a problem anymore. this doesnt change how balance looks at all, in fact all these teams will probably be relatively the same as they were before but this is a nice quality of life "change" for balance if you will.

slainey is now in shambles because he can no longer win games by cheesing people and now has to play good

unban moody
 
god anything smogon related is gonna be impossible to talk in for like a month fuck me

im glad KR cloyster HO is a thing of the past though, and hopefully this should be the end of KR discussion for good. horrible, awful, terribly unfun thing. It'll be interesting to see HO without its cheese king supreme stealing endgames off of 1 flinch. plenty of fun options like Haxorus, Bulu, Jirachi, scarfgar, gyarados, Blaziken, and more to play around w/.
 
god every anything smogon related is gonna be impossible to talk in for like a month fuck me

im glad KR cloyster HO is a thing of the past though, and hopefully this should be the end of KR discussion for good. horrible, awful, terribly unfun thing. It'll be interesting to see HO without its cheese king supreme stealing endgames off of 1 flinch.
gomi
have you experienced this thread
but yeah, hopefully now ppl SHUT UP about this :)

i was gonna make another arthur meme, but i cant think of a funny thing to post :(
 

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