Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

I havent played a lot of OU, but I dont think kartana can have a specially defensive variant. Its know for having paper thin special defense, unless you slap on a assault vest, its not living many special hits...
the logic behind it is not that it acts defensively, but rather that it’s harder to knock out or knock into revenge thresholds.

252 Atk EV is approx 15% power boost
252 SpD EV is approx 64% survivability boost

I have evidence to support this logic works in the current meta , currently at 2k ELO with a team that is deliberately designed to be gimped by flying types. Kartana pulls heavy weight vs the Tapu trio. Kartana surviving a hit has become more important than squeezing out that little extra KOing power

watch a few replays, I posted one that shows how it disposed of arctozolt, and forced a lele to reveal scarf. The one after shows how predictions from a fini couldn’t get it into KO range for a conk Mach punch.

when you’re playing offensive, it’s less about defending against threats and more about avoiding thresholds to be KOd whilst bringing your opponents Pokémon into KO range.

the set is very simple:

:Kartana:
Kartana @ leftovers
252 SpD / 252 Spe / 4 Hp
Jolly Nature
- swords dance
- leaf blade
- knock off
- sacred sword

Not a fan of synthesis, as the three attacks are important, and swords dance let’s you muscle past things in the end game. Against some team structures like hail, you can have an end game begin in as little as 4-5 turns if you lure the main checks into KO thresholds!
 
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I saw some previous post and will share some thoughts -

1) Magnet Pull - I never really got why this thing was allowed in the first place. I talked about this a few months back as well and everyone replied one of 2 things - either that Zone is can only trap Steels as opposed to 17 types or Zone is shit if they don't have a steel type.

I think the 2nd point is invalidated as firstly the problem is the ability not the pokemon itself and Zone is atleast good enough to trap Steels and nowadays it has shown to be useful outside of even that by using Expert Belt sets to pressure fairies and Blissey teams, using Air Balloon to Trap Exca and Melly, using Lefties to cheat against physical offense teams with body press etc. Zone being bad and therefore it's trapping be justified is not an argument.

The first point is the one that people just throw out and don't want any rebuttals to. I had written an entire in battle scenario of Zone and friends vs Corvi and how Corvi is so pressurized that the principal is same as Dugtrio vs Pex. The effect is that same as that the metal bird can't counter what it needs to and every turn for it becomes a 50/50 that is completely favoured in the Zone user's benefit. But nobody gives a rebuttal to it and just bring back the 17 types vs 1 type argument.

I genuinely believe that this is case where people know that Magnet Pull is uncompetitive but they want to keep it regardless and take undue advantage of it being in a majority be it because they don't want to change Magnet Pull not being OU after 5 Gens or maybe they hate facing Ferro and Corvi that much.

Believe me, I am not salty about this. I honestly don't care. I have started using Zone myself. It's better to use the broken tools available to gain every advantage possible than to complain about removing them.


2) Hail : I definitely don't think it is broken at all. I don't have a very strong opinion on it as I spam Sun like no tomorrow and I am one of the few people who still says, "Damn, Pert is a good mon in OU." and have it on like 50% of all my teams. So facing it, it didn't really seem overwhelming and all that good to be honest at first. I used it myself coupled with Sandslash Alolan and that team had major weaknesses and Sandslash really hindered more than it helped. However I started to see what the hype was about for Arctozolt and why is it being put in such high regard.

It CAN definitely decimate unprepared teams but that is the thing, people need to be unprepared for it. There are 2 problems I saw it have -

1) It is not a like traditional Weather. What I mean by that is that normal weather teams make up for stocking on similar mons by having overwhelming offense and Speed presence. While on the other hand you stock up 2 Ice types just to make Arctozolt faster than just the unboosted Meta game (You are outsped by base 91 scarfers and up) with no additional power boost. Also the Hail as a whole doesn't help your team out outside of 100℅ Blizzards, 4 turn Aurora Veil and countering Rain.

2) It is actually quite weak when not clicking Bolt Beak vs offensive mons. Mons like Koko, Zeraora, Hippo, Kyurem, Zone etc. Easily retaliate vs it and mons like Melmetal, Ferro, Scizor using Bullet Punch, Swampert survive multiple hits.

3) I think it's biggest issue is that it is a mon that was good as a result of the builder rather than the actual battle, meaning the meta was caught a bit off guard by it. Don't get me wrong I have been downplaying it too much but I understood why it was where it was and it was extremely good for a while but I definitely see it falling back down as people get more used to it and start running more durable steels or even multiple steels, opposing weather, more scarfers etc. I predict it to be a one hit wonder because at the end of the day, dedicating 2 team slots to it won't seem as appealing when it doesn't instantly destroy entire teams.
 
I saw some previous post and will share some thoughts -

1) Magnet Pull - I never really got why this thing was allowed in the first place. I talked about this a few months back as well and everyone replied one of 2 things - either that Zone is can only trap Steels as opposed to 17 types or Zone is shit if they don't have a steel type.

I think the 2nd point is invalidated as firstly the problem is the ability not the pokemon itself and Zone is atleast good enough to trap Steels and nowadays it has shown to be useful outside of even that by using Expert Belt sets to pressure fairies and Blissey teams, using Air Balloon to Trap Exca and Melly, using Lefties to cheat against physical offense teams with body press etc. Zone being bad and therefore it's trapping be justified is not an argument.

The first point is the one that people just throw out and don't want any rebuttals to. I had written an entire in battle scenario of Zone and friends vs Corvi and how Corvi is so pressurized that the principal is same as Dugtrio vs Pex. The effect is that same as that the metal bird can't counter what it needs to and every turn for it becomes a 50/50 that is completely favoured in the Zone user's benefit. But nobody gives a rebuttal to it and just bring back the 17 types vs 1 type argument.

I genuinely believe that this is case where people know that Magnet Pull is uncompetitive but they want to keep it regardless and take undue advantage of it being in a majority be it because they don't want to change Magnet Pull not being OU after 5 Gens or maybe they hate facing Ferro and Corvi that much.

Believe me, I am not salty about this. I honestly don't care. I have started using Zone myself.

It's better to use the broken tools available to gain every advantage possible than to complain about removing them.
I don’t think magnet pull can be looked at as “uncompetitive”, as the reality is that usually that definition is reserved for things that manipulate chance, and according to the decision makers “offer no other relevant value”. An example of uncompetitive, using the implied definition, is kings rock on cloyster, which was banned.

Magnet pull being ”too good for OU” on the other hand, is a different topic.

The effect is that same as that the metal bird can't counter what it needs to and every turn for it becomes a 50/50 that is completely favoured in the Zone user's benefit. But nobody gives a rebuttal to it and just bring back the 17 types vs 1 type argument.
this is simple, if your counter isn’t beating what it needs to. Consider updating the team to rely less on that one Pokémon to counter the threat, or otherwise play the game against a Magnezone with the trap being in mind from turn 1. Usually it’s a combination of the two. I have never found Ferrothorn bad because of a magnezone, usually it’s weakness is fire attacks. Corviknight rarely finds magnezone a true problem, it’s usually high pressure offense built to deal with it.

if magnet pull is too good for OU, ban it. It doesn’t seem like it is, as it’s best user isn’t necessarily overbearing. Just try running a different team architecture if zone is a problem. Corviknight isn’t a “hard” counter to Rillaboom and friends. It’s usually a check that can get momentum and defog, this is assuming you’re running it’s standard defog set of course. If you want a harder counter try :buzzwole: or most flying types that resist fighting and run super effective moves, like :tornadus-therian:, :zapdos: and :dragonite:


I have started using Zone myself. It's better to use the broken tools available to gain every advantage possible than to complain about removing them
That’s awesome!! Keep using it, it helps provide some evidence that magnezone is too good if you can demonstrably show that it improved your performance dramatically and left opponents with little chance to win!! You’ll quickly find magnezone is no cinderace , Zygarde or magearna.
 
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slight like nitpick: i wouldn't describe this set as "specially defensive", i would define it as "timid" or "speed boosting"

Magnet Pull definitely is arguably a bad influence on the metagame/overcentralizing, as it+grass type is pretty hard to check over a game.
 
I don’t think magnet pull can be looked at as “uncompetitive”, as the reality is that usually that definition is reserved for things that manipulate chance, and according to the decision makers “offer no other relevant value”. An example of uncompetitive, using the implied definition, is kings rock on cloyster, which was banned.

Magnet pull being ”too good for OU” on the other hand, is a different topic.
Bro, I highly encourage you to check your facts before trying to correct someone else. That RNG thing is one example of what is considered uncompetitive, not the entire scope of it. Look at literally any Trapping Ability suspect and they call it uncompetitive, why? because switching is a fundamental part of singles and it is not far from saying that singles is built on the principle of switching. One party being able to prevent the opposition from doing one of the very basic move in Mons, that is exactly the what being "Uncompetitive" is. Literally nobody ever said Magnet Pull is "Too Much for OU".

this is simple, if your counter isn’t beating what it needs to. Consider updating the team to rely less on that one Pokémon to counter the threat, or otherwise play the game against a Magnezone with the trap being in mind from turn 1. Usually it’s a combination of the two. I have never found Ferrothorn bad because of a magnezone, usually it’s weakness is fire attacks. Corviknight rarely finds magnezone a true problem, it’s usually high pressure offense built to deal with it.

if magnet pull is too good for OU, ban it. It doesn’t seem like it is, as it’s best user isn’t necessarily overbearing. Just try running a different team architecture if zone is a problem. Corviknight isn’t a “hard” counter to Rillaboom and friends. It’s usually a check that can get momentum and defog, this is assuming you’re running it’s standard defog set of course. If you want a harder counter try :buzzwole: or most flying types that resist fighting and run super effective moves, like :tornadus-therian:, :zapdos: and :dragonite:
First things first, I always find it so funny when people add their own pointers and COUNTER them on their own to strengthen their argument. I never said "Ferro is Bad", and I never even mentioned Rilla in these posts.

Either way, this what I mean when I say that I never got a decent Pro Magnet Pull argument. I will break this reply down in three sentences for ya guys, "Your team is bad, I personally can play around Zone, Run different counters to those mons if they get trapped." I don't get in what world this is a valid counter argument of the breakdown of my scenario of Corvi vs a Zone team, the plays that are forced and how disadvantaged the Corvi user is in the weight of prediction.

That is the root of the very problem. Why is "playing around" Zone to that degree acceptable for these Steel types? Are steel types really that head and shoulders above the rest of them that they need to be balanced out by being trapped? IMHO, I definitely don't believe this.


I will give ya people a very simple scenario to illustrate this, say, your counter to the DD Roost Wingbeat EQ Dnite is Corvi (Let's just assume for a minute, despite everyone and their mother running Ice Punch now) and they have a Zone in the back. Now, Corvi is a perfectly good counter as Dnite just has 8 Wingbeats against it and it's not a 2HKO but in this scenario it's completely flipped, you LITERALLY can't outplay this as the Corvi user. They can keep staying in with Dnite and double to Zone any turn they feel like. That's already very rough and low odds for you but also consider that somehow you lucked out and got it right, they could just repeat this do it until Corvi get's trapped. You are not outplaying here, you are both playing slots that the other person will double or not.

This might seem like a very specific scenario but it's not impossible to come across in a battle. The argument that run "a different counter then" is invalid imo as I think it is only valid if they are able to overwhelm your counter with good switched and offensive pressure, not one double switch that you can't escape from.

That’s awesome!! Keep using it, it helps provide some evidence that magnezone is too good if you can demonstrably show that it improved your performance dramatically and left opponents with little chance to win!! You’ll quickly find magnezone is no cinderace , Zygarde or magearna.
Sire, I humbly apologize for putting a small anecdote after an actual argument (Hey that's unintentional 5 word alliteration). I am truly ashamed that you had the misfortune of having to look at that, that monstrosity of a post while everything you wrote was so insightful and knowledgeable.

See? these people start to attack when they don't have an actual point. I wrote some actual points against Magnet Pull and this dude picks up the one satirical line from the post and goes of on that. Also it's quite hypocritical that this dude is the one who says that I provide no evidence when he literally talked in the air the whole time without one point to illustrate.

Also bro why the hell are you comparing Zone to Cind, Zyggy and Mag? ATLEAST compare it to Dugtrio or Goth if you really want to.

That is all I have to say. Honestly, I have nothing against dude. I am not trying to have a battle of words with him but I always find it so sad that people are just sitting there ready to pounce on a random kid on internet. I am just discussing my views on the meta game here and nothing else but these guys for some reason just want to make it personal over mons, heck, over an ability.
 
Magnezone's ability Magnet Pull, which allows it to trap Steel-types and effectively cripple or remove most of them, is unmatched by any other Pokemon. The consistency that comes with trapping as opposed to luring a target can enable a variety of setup sweepers and physical attackers. In particular, trapping Skarmory, Jirachi, Empoleon, and even Bronzong can be extremely desirable.


Magnezone has one job in the BW OU metagame, and it does that job well: trap and remove Steel-type Pokemon, particularly Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Excadrill. Thanks to Magnezone's typing and ability, it can come in on most Steel-type Pokemon without much trouble and remove them. This makes Magnezone an enabler for Pokemon that are stopped by Steel-types, such as Latios, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Gliscor, and Amoonguss; making it the cornerstone of the famous DragMag style, where Magnezone clears the way for a collection of Dragon-type Pokemon to fire off powerful attacks. In addition, its ability to trap common entry hazard setters such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory and a common spinner and wallbreaker in Excadrill can make it a valuable teammate and take pressure off your spinner by reducing the need to spin as soon as possible.

At first glance, there seems to be little reason to use Magnezone in OU. It's slow, has crippling weaknesses to common attacking types, and faces stiff competition from other, better Electric-type options available, such as Thundurus. However, its signature ability, Magnet Pull, gives it the excellent niche of being able to trap and remove many common Steel-types, making it a good partner for certain sweepers, such as Mega Pinsir and Dragonite


Magnezone's near-exclusive access to Magnet Pull gives it a very unique and valuable niche in the OU metagame as a trapper and eliminator of Steel-types such as Ferrothorn, Scizor, Skarmory, and Celesteela. It also functions as a solid revenge killer with Choice Scarf, being able to check a number of dangerous Pokemon like Kartana, Mega Scizor, and weakened Celesteela.


Magnezone's main draw is trapping and removing Steel-types such as Corviknight, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn with Magnet Pull. This support greatly enables many of the strongest sweepers and wallbreakers in the tier, such as Garchomp and Rillaboom. Its coverage is limited but effective, with different options to trap additional foes

All of this is to say that there has been a long held acknowledgement Magnet Pull boosts the viability of teammates that cannot deal with steels. In my view, this is an implied statement that some level of trapping abilities are desirable. Following this logic (if it actually is the case), I would like to discuss testing other weaker trappers. In particular, I think Trapinch is one particularly notable candidate. In LC, it can trap Onyx and Pawniard and Abra/Grookey with First Impression. It has a base speed of 10. I just don't see much of a compelling reason that Corviknight must live in fear but Heatran doesn't. I just don't think we've had a sustained and serious discussion on trapping since the XY era. The current policy is a strange limbo.
 
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On the Magnet Pull discussion, I think simply put Corviknight in a magnet pull-less meta is just near unpunishable and almost too good to not put on every other team. Momentum, removal, an answer to grounds, grasses, weavile and bisharp, lele and most melmetals all in one untrappable slot. Its ability to check so much is only hindered by the fact that u have to consider "what if X mon I'm checking is paired with Zone", and even then, the zone has to play around obnoxious shed shell sets and the now slowly increasing usage of the 241 timid Corv.

As for other steels, skarmory is kind of dwindling regardless of Zone I feel, its seemingly just worse as a steel-bird than Corviknight and as a spiker Ferrothorn seems to offer more (water resist, koko check, lele check, so on). Ferro is another zone target that can easily get away with shed shell sets which we saw a bit of on OLT ladder (mainly cycle 1, where Zone seemed to peak), and also we managed to get a glimpse of ID Press Ferro's that can check threats like Weavile, Corv, and Melmetal, while also being able to 1v1 Zones. Melmetal and Kart require very specific plays to go your way in order to trap them and both warrant the need of a chople berry generally, and in Melm's case you also need magnet rise to get it trapped. Its not as easy as just switching hard into any of these steels and trapping them, since a lot of them can just blow you away on the switch or the following turn.

None of this should be any new info, but I am trying to point out that unlike previous trapping abilities or even currently existing things like Heatran's magma storm, Magnet Pull isn't exactly the free take-a-mon-out card you expect it to be, and teching against it isn't that much of a hassle for a lot of these mons (bar maybe Ferro). I did also neglect to mention AV Magnezone to trap Heatran, a strat that helps open up mons like Volcarona (or Hatterene, if thats your thing), but I haven't seen any of these teams openly have success on OLT ladder or in tour, so I'd rather just leave them as an honourable mention rather than an actual point for or against MP.
 
On the Magnet Pull discussion, I think simply put Corviknight in a magnet pull-less meta is just near unpunishable and almost too good to not put on every other team. Momentum, removal, an answer to grounds, grasses, weavile and bisharp, lele and most melmetals all in one untrappable slot. Its ability to check so much is only hindered by the fact that u have to consider "what if X mon I'm checking is paired with Zone", and even then, the zone has to play around obnoxious shed shell sets and the now slowly increasing usage of the 241 timid Corv.
It's worth noting that "hey if we ban x, y is too good/broken/bad influence" is not a valid argument in this case- broken checks broken is something that is often brought up in similar discussions, and it's considered as like, not a good point. The only thing we're concerned about is is magnet pull broken/uncompetitive/whatever else, not if we ban it will other stuff become broken. We just ban corv after if we have an issue w it
 
It's worth noting that "hey if we ban x, y is too good/broken/bad influence" is not a valid argument in this case- broken checks broken is something that is often brought up in similar discussions, and it's considered as like, not a good point. The only thing we're concerned about is is magnet pull broken/uncompetitive/whatever else, not if we ban it will other stuff become broken. We just ban corv after if we have an issue w it
"None of this should be any new info, but I am trying to point out that unlike previous trapping abilities or even currently existing things like Heatran's magma storm, Magnet Pull isn't exactly the free take-a-mon-out card you expect it to be, and teching against it isn't that much of a hassle for a lot of these mons (bar maybe Ferro)."

Edit: The first bit was me talking about the point you made sure, I did say Corv would be broken, but I then elaborated on how literally every mon that is a target of M-Pull isnt affected as badly as you'd want it to be. I don't think something that isnt a guaranteed trap as much so as Arena Trap was, is uncompetitive.
 
It's worth noting that "hey if we ban x, y is too good/broken/bad influence" is not a valid argument in this case- broken checks broken is something that is often brought up in similar discussions, and it's considered as like, not a good point. The only thing we're concerned about is is magnet pull broken/uncompetitive/whatever else, not if we ban it will other stuff become broken. We just ban corv after if we have an issue w it
It's also worth noting that the post also put heavy emphasis on Magnet Pull's limitations vs other prevalent Steels and its limitations as a trapping ability in general. If anything mention of how existing things keep other meta-threats in check is a worthwhile point to make in some cases provided that there's strong enough other support against that thing being broken (which in this case there is). There's no use pushing for a not really necessary suspect test that's likely to cause more problems via domino effect than solve any.
 
I have previously given my thoughts on the magnet pull discussion, but since it’s come up again I‘ll just give my 2 cents.
I have a problem with the idea that ‘switching is an inherent part of the game’ and therefore trapping is uncompetitive because it prevents it. Trapping is just as much ‘an inherent part of the game’ as switching-they’ve both existed since Gen 1. I don’t view trapping as inherently uncompetitive, because it has no element of luck, but abilities such as Arena Trap and Shadow Tag are obviously overpowered, since they trap most stuff just by switching in (Though tbh Shadow Tag Gothita should honestly be allowed in OU-its stats are so trash that it can’t actually trap anything effectively). Magnet Pull is far more limited-but rather than repeat a dead argument, I’ll explain why this matters. Due to the limitations of its moveset and its ability, Magnezone can only trap three OU mons reliably-Corv, Ferro and Skarm. This is not counting gimmick sets to trap Heatran and stuff. This means that at the start of the game, both players know what mons Magnezone can trap, which means that the opponent can play around it. One thing that the non-Magnezone player can take advantage of is the fact that Magnezone will usually come it on Steels and attempt to trap them-you can predict and gain momentum. Because of this, a Magnezone switch-in isn’t risk free for the Magnezone player, since Magnezone invites in powerful threats such as Chomp and Heatran. True, if Magnezone comes in on a Steel, there’s nothing you can do, but this is similar to a lot of other 50/50s in the game. Get it wrong, and you lose. Get it right, you win.
I think there’s general agreement that Magnezone itself is not broken-outside of trapping Steels it’s subpar, so it’s somewhat match-up fishy. But if we think that trapping itself is uncompetitive, then we have to immediately ban Fire Spin, Whirlpool etc. I don’t think I need to explain why this is a bad idea. Also, before anyone says that Magnet Pull is better than Fire Spin/Whirlpool because it traps by switching in-it’s not. It only traps steels, whereas trapping moves trap anything that isn’t immune. They’re just as difficult to play around as Magnet Pull, if not more so, since Magnet Pull is at least predictable.
Trapping is not uncompetitive, Magnet Pull is not overpowered, so don’t ban Magnet Pull.

Edit:100th post!
 
One misconception I see that continues to exist is that Zone only traps 3 Steel types in OU. This is simply not the case as Zone can threaten or at least force certain plays from ALL steel types bar Tran in OU.

I will be using the Air Balloon Iron Defense 3 Attacks Zone as an example as I have the most experience using that set and is the most potent imho.

1) The 3 mons Corvi, Ferro and Skarm are already obvious so let's move on.

2) Melmetal - Zone always outspeeds and gets 2 IDs up before Melly can hit it with EQ which it survives at that point and then kills with Press. Melly is hopeless in this situation as even Superpower is not enough. Choiced sets have it even rougher as locking into any of DIB, T Punch, Ice Punch is a death sentence.

3) Kartana - Kart is a Steel that doesn't fear Zone at all as it outspeeds and straight up kill Zone but this is an example of Zone influencing and forcing certain plays.

A very common set Kart runs is Scarfed and that set is used to revenge kill and threaten offensively right? But it really struggles to do that when Zone is in the back. Kart is stuck in a catch 22 situation where clicking anything besides Sacred Sword is instant death.

A very common example is Lele + Zone, You simply won't dream of clicking Sacred Sword vs Lele. Thus, even your offensive check to opposing offense, that is able to straight up kill it's the potential trapper, has to play awkwardly due to the possibility of being trapped.


4
) Bisharp - Bisharp has to be at +2 boosting Item Knock to kill Zone, Zone can even hard switch into Knock and then take the followed up weakened Knock and kill it straight up with Press. Even if you don't hard switch Zone on Bish, it is forced to either die or always be at +2 when killing something. That also means you can defog in peace.

5) Exca - Exca actually does get
killed from 73%
. Sand is already in a pretty bad spot as is and your sand sweeper having to wait around for Zone to lose it's Balloon before it can come in is not helping matters. This combined with the 3 originally mentioned mons and Bish also means that Zone has a significant impact on the Hazard game, trapping 2 Spikers, the best defogger, the best Spinner and the Defog punisher.

6) Scizor - Ok this one is my favorite example because this showes why trapping is ridiculous. Initially Scizor ran SD Knock BP Roost but then everyone realised that, "Shit we lose to Zone with this." And switched out SD for Uturn which is so much more passive and non threatening. This should have been bad enough on it's own but the story doesn't end there, no. Zone STILL effectively ruins Scizor as it always outspeeds Bulky Scizors and forces it to take 35%-40% with Tbolt before Uturn. You just can't stay in and Roost spam due to the threat of Iron Defense Press doing 60% on the Uturn.

You know what a 65% Scizor is in range of? 2HKO by Specs Psychic from Lele and Specs Ice Beam from Kyurem is a roll. It fails at the one job it is supposed to do despite running Uturn specifically to get away from Zone.


See? These examples illustrate how Zone can be frustrating for nearly all Steel types save Tran. You don't simply look at if it can kill the Steel in a 1v1. It affects the very way they need to be played even if they do actually beat Zone and force awkward plays.


Another thing I saw was calling it a 50/50 where Zone user wins if they get the double right but they lose if they get wrong. This is way too straight forward and an incorrect explanation of how things go down.

A free double switch into Chomp or Tran simply doesn't win you the game. So getting it wrong as a Zone user once or twice is not the end of the world. On the other hand, just getting the double switch right once for Zone is a guaranteed trap so the problem is that the 50/50 is much more skewed in the favour of the Zone user with better returns.


Lastly, Fire Spin, Whirlpool etc. Are not broken because YOU can control what gets trapped. It is not an automatic effect with an ability. The very uncompetitive nature of trapping is out of the windows for these when your counters can't be singled out forcefully. Teams are also loaded with Pivot moves nowadays so they are actually pretty bad instead of being broken. It works mostly when you are caught off guard by Pex or Bro using Block or something and by Fini because he is the Goat.

Magma Tran is a whole another beast entirely.
 
I don't understand the point of a magnet pull ban in a gen where Magnezone is at its most fishy, A pokemon that cant even succesfully trap most of the steels without proper conditioning and that doesn't preform like any of the utility a steel does, bar like checking weavile, Koko, and Zolt a little. EQ Melm is not an uncommon set, Air Balloon isnt super common on ID zone as a whole as items like Chople for messing with kart are mostly better, Skarm can whirl to deny it free entry while forcing awkward "is he gonna spike or switch or what" scenarios, Excadrill is rare as hell, Kart usually achieves enough before being trapped that's fairly ok to let it go, I could go on.

It's really not that bad this gen, most steels can outplay it and putting it on your team has some very serious implications on the rest of your team's structure because of how garbage it can be when you really would've preferred an actual steel type. Choosing a set is actually pretty difficult since Specs is incapable of removing Ferro (without voltage which is good dont get me wrong but specific) and other sets either A) end up midgrounding like expert belt and have little to no defensive utility or B) go with standard ID and fail to even OHKO Corv or provide much of an offensive threat in most MUs at all.


That being said im indifferent because ability based trapping is generally just kind of shit and encourages matchup fishing so meh

minor thing

You know what a 65% Scizor is in range of? 2HKO by Specs Psychic from Lele and Specs Ice Beam from Kyurem is a roll. It fails at the one job it is supposed to do despite running Uturn specifically to get away from Zone.
Scizor tends to fall into this range attempting to maintain momentum regardless, hell specs Lele's psychic stab only needs you to be at like 80 to lose. You just force prediction with your Vile and find oppurtunities to roost where you can, aka what you would do with a scizor anyways.
 
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Bro, I highly encourage you to check your facts before trying to correct someone else. That RNG thing is one example of what is considered uncompetitive, not the entire scope of it. Look at literally any Trapping Ability suspect and they call it uncompetitive, why? because switching is a fundamental part of singles and it is not far from saying that singles is built on the principle of switching. One party being able to prevent the opposition from doing one of the very basic move in Mons, that is exactly the what being "Uncompetitive" is. Literally nobody ever said Magnet Pull is "Too Much for OU".



First things first, I always find it so funny when people add their own pointers and COUNTER them on their own to strengthen their argument. I never said "Ferro is Bad", and I never even mentioned Rilla in these posts.

Either way, this what I mean when I say that I never got a decent Pro Magnet Pull argument. I will break this reply down in three sentences for ya guys, "Your team is bad, I personally can play around Zone, Run different counters to those mons if they get trapped." I don't get in what world this is a valid counter argument of the breakdown of my scenario of Corvi vs a Zone team, the plays that are forced and how disadvantaged the Corvi user is in the weight of prediction.

That is the root of the very problem. Why is "playing around" Zone to that degree acceptable for these Steel types? Are steel types really that head and shoulders above the rest of them that they need to be balanced out by being trapped? IMHO, I definitely don't believe this.


I will give ya people a very simple scenario to illustrate this, say, your counter to the DD Roost Wingbeat EQ Dnite is Corvi (Let's just assume for a minute, despite everyone and their mother running Ice Punch now) and they have a Zone in the back. Now, Corvi is a perfectly good counter as Dnite just has 8 Wingbeats against it and it's not a 2HKO but in this scenario it's completely flipped, you LITERALLY can't outplay this as the Corvi user. They can keep staying in with Dnite and double to Zone any turn they feel like. That's already very rough and low odds for you but also consider that somehow you lucked out and got it right, they could just repeat this do it until Corvi get's trapped. You are not outplaying here, you are both playing slots that the other person will double or not.

This might seem like a very specific scenario but it's not impossible to come across in a battle. The argument that run "a different counter then" is invalid imo as I think it is only valid if they are able to overwhelm your counter with good switched and offensive pressure, not one double switch that you can't escape from.



Sire, I humbly apologize for putting a small anecdote after an actual argument (Hey that's unintentional 5 word alliteration). I am truly ashamed that you had the misfortune of having to look at that, that monstrosity of a post while everything you wrote was so insightful and knowledgeable.

See? these people start to attack when they don't have an actual point. I wrote some actual points against Magnet Pull and this dude picks up the one satirical line from the post and goes of on that. Also it's quite hypocritical that this dude is the one who says that I provide no evidence when he literally talked in the air the whole time without one point to illustrate.

Also bro why the hell are you comparing Zone to Cind, Zyggy and Mag? ATLEAST compare it to Dugtrio or Goth if you really want to.

That is all I have to say. Honestly, I have nothing against dude. I am not trying to have a battle of words with him but I always find it so sad that people are just sitting there ready to pounce on a random kid on internet. I am just discussing my views on the meta game here and nothing else but these guys for some reason just want to make it personal over mons, heck, over an ability.
i am unsure why you seem to be very bitter. Trapping is as much a deliberate mechanic as switching is. Whether or not it is uncompetitive is up to definition. Usually things like sand veil Garchomp and kings rock cloyster have been brought up as uncompetitive.

Regardless it’s not relevant in this situation



First things first, I always find it so funny when people add their own pointers and COUNTER them on their own to strengthen their argument. I never said "Ferro is Bad", and I never even mentioned Rilla in these posts.
Please elaborate? My focus is on knock off users who don’t need team support to remove potential shed shells. Rillaboom is the best example. If you’re super worried about a steel type being able to be a counter to dragonite or other Pokémon that doesn’t have knock off. Shed shell exists.



That is the root of the very problem. Why is "playing around" Zone to that degree acceptable for these Steel types? Are steel types really that head and shoulders above the rest of them that they need to be balanced out by being trapped? IMHO, I definitely don't believe this.
I fail to understand why this is something unique to magnet pull or “uncompetitive” mechanics. Any good threat in OU needs to be “played around”. If you don’t have a plan to deal with specs dragapult, you will have a hard time.


<scenario with corviknight v. Dragonite>

This might seem like a very specific scenario but it's not impossible to come across in a battle. The argument that run "a different counter then" is invalid imo as I think it is only valid if they are able to overwhelm your counter with good switched and offensive pressure, not one double switch that you can't escape from.
okay, so this would affect corviknight’s viability as a counter to dragonite? If you are struggling against dragonite and magnezone then shed shell is logical. If you now complain that it will lose shed shell to knock off, you now have 3 Pokémon on your opponents team dedicated to breaking your corviknight.

please note I am focusing on shed shell for simplicity. As someone who runs steel types weak to magnezone all the time, I don’t typically use shed shell as a method to curb magnezone.



Also bro why the hell are you comparing Zone to Cind, Zyggy and Mag? ATLEAST compare it to Dugtrio or Goth if you really want to.
They’re the most recent bans that came to mind. There’s also kings rock Cloyster, but that was banned under the premise of “uncompetitive due to manipulating odds too much” rather than “too good for OU”.

gothitelle is probably hard to compare to, as I find it will only be good against very limited teams. Dugtrio on the other hand would definitely make sense as too OP. It’s highly valuable against things like heatran , slowking-G, toxapex and fast but fragile Pokémon too. Not opposed to it being retested tho.. then biggest difference is that it’s less obvious which threat a goth or dugtrio will be optimised to take out. They’re harder to play against until you know the set. Of course usually a dugtrio is banded, as usually it’s targets are bulky ground weak types.



Please note nothing was made personal .. I am addressing points raised only.



I think if you asked users if they thought magnet pull was OP and/or anti-competitive, that would be a good way to gauge whether it’s worth banning or not. My arguments are mostly that it’s probably not OP. I also argued that kings rock cloyster isn’t necessarily OP, and the metagame needed to adapt to it a little more. But people deemed that anti-competitive, and it was banned.
 
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Plushietran

formerly Shadesan
you LITERALLY can't outplay this as the Corvi use
God i dont like engaging in these useless discussions but here we go,

This statement is just incorrect, the corvi user has some ways to outplay magnezone, mainly with smart double switching and pivoting with uturn, which means the zone user has to awkwardly double switch it in,

Other steels have ways around it, like melmetal running earthquake or predicting well with kartana

Not to mention it has other implications outside of battle, since you have to run a crucial team slot on a pokemon that'll be not useful in any other matchup, and its a steel type that doesent check things like weavile, so it makes your team structure vulnerable to things like that, so you'll have to use carefully on your team

I can get the frustration with thise matchup dependant type of trapping, but i dont think its oppressive enough to warrant a ban
 
With so many mons running boots, I don't see why hazardless teams won't be a thing in the near future. Not only do you open up a move slot on your own team but you also most likely take away a slot from your opponent since Defog is almost as mandatory as Stealth Rock
Posted this a while back. Glad to see more and more teams going hazardless such as the one currently being discussed
 
Finchinator, you brought this Magnet Pull discussion on the thread. Is this what you wanted? :mad:

Also, why was king's rock banned, but Stench was not? Which is which!>!?!

Code:
Holder's attacks without a chance to make the target flinch gain a 10% chance to make the target flinch.

This Pokemon's attacks without a chance to make the target flinch gain a 10% chance to make the target flinch.

Duck Dynasty
:ss/porygon2:
Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Ice Beam
- Foul Play
- Teleport / Toxic

Certified rare Arctozolt pivot. Take 50 from bolt beak and then outspeed. Porygon also has other uses, like being a beastly pivot into all kinds of crap.
 
Jokler makes a compelling argument for magnet pull being uncompetitive, the same arguments used against other traping abilities being uncompetitive. Unfortunately for him, Smogon abandoned consistency a long time ago, so it isn't really any use.
We banned one RNG item totally not just because of cloyster and then left a whole slew of them still in the game including quick draw, stench, veil and cloak, quick claw, bright powder etc. We also leave one trapping ability in despite forcing the same awkward 50/50s always in favor of the trapper.
Just remember the next time anyone makes an argument for some dumb shit like banning gorilla tactics or boots on cinder that consistency is not a valid argument because it's not something we abide by.
 
Jokler makes a compelling argument for magnet pull being uncompetitive, the same arguments used against other traping abilities being uncompetitive. Unfortunately for him, Smogon abandoned consistency a long time ago, so it isn't really any use.
We banned one RNG item totally not just because of cloyster and then left a whole slew of them still in the game including quick draw, stench, veil and cloak, quick claw, bright powder etc. We also leave one trapping ability in despite forcing the same awkward 50/50s always in favor of the trapper.
Just remember the next time anyone makes an argument for some dumb shit like banning gorilla tactics or boots on cinder that consistency is not a valid argument because it's not something we abide by.

It has been consistent though. Things have been banned because they are problematic. Kings rock was an issue in SS OU. Bright powder and quick claw, simply were not. I see people bring up these other hax items a lot in some weird defence of kings rock and with the same "consistency" nonsense, its almost like you are purposefully ignoring that one had a negative impact on the metagame whereas the rest had no impact whatsoever.

And no, magent pull doesn't pull the same 50-50s, as I labelled in an earlier post, all the (very short list mind you) of magnet pullable targets can all viably counterplay zone on their own, without giving up their functionality. It is not the same at all as what arena trap did, where any mon that got stuck in with an Atrap mon was bound to just be removed from that match.
 
One angle I haven’t seen mentioned is how Magnet Pull low-key has a purpose. Trapping Steels is meant to balance out the incredible defensive utility the Steel typing provides.

This conversation keeps focusing on the offensive Pokémon that Magnezone opens up for but doesn’t really acknowledge how many offensive threats are being kept in check by a handful of Steel types.

Maybe the problem isn’t where we think it is.
 
Why are we delving into the intricacies of why Magnet Pull is fine on Magnezone, but Arena Trap isn't on everything else?

I personally see this issue of two sides of a coin: Either ban trapping abilities as a whole, or delve into the individual abusers case by case.
If trapping is seen as "uncompetitive" or impedes on "switching is a fundamental part of the game", why are we ignoring this for Magnet Pull?

As said before, the "it only targets 1 type" argument literally shouldn't matter, do trapping abilities lead to uncompetitive scenarios: YES or NO.


Banning Magnet Pull would make Meltan Ubers by technicality lmao
 
Something that has always bothered me with trapping ability discussion is that the conversation always hovers at the ability level and not the individual mon level. I’ve been told it would be a large waste of time to individually test things like Trapinch or Wynaut or Gothita, but IMO bans really need to be as individually catered as possible. It’s conceivable one of these would be fine in OU. Similar to discussion of Magnet Pull Zone, why not suspect Zone. If magneton fills the hole, do it again. I doubt magnemite would be much of problem.

Nuance is swept away whenever trapping abilities are being discussed but I think it’s worth embracing. Why is StagGothita banned? Because we are lazy? Same goes for discussing Magnet Pull. Would we ban Meltan? I am firmly in the suspect Pokémon, not abilities camp. People assert that Shadow Tag and Arena Trap are broken on all users but it simply is untested conjecture.
 
Why are we delving into the intricacies of why Magnet Pull is fine on Magnezone, but Arena Trap isn't on everything else?

I personally see this issue of two sides of a coin: Either ban trapping abilities as a whole, or delve into the individual abusers case by case.
If trapping is seen as "uncompetitive" or impedes on "switching is a fundamental part of the game", why are we ignoring this for Magnet Pull?

As said before, the "it only targets 1 type" argument literally shouldn't matter, do trapping abilities lead to uncompetitive scenarios: YES or NO.


Banning Magnet Pull would make Meltan Ubers by technicality lmao
"It only targets 1 type argument literally shouldn't matter"

...Why? Its a significant difference? A pool of mons being able to trap anything they want to be teched to trap vs 1 mon being able to sometimes trap a small group of mons, all of which can viably counter said trap attempt.

Why doesn't this matter? I feel like this goes right back into the whole Kings rock vs other hax items "consistency" argument. Grouping things together that don't have the same impact, only a semblence of the same effect.

They are not equal in uncompetitive aspect or brokeness. The argument literally should matter.

Something that has always bothered me with trapping ability discussion is that the conversation always hovers at the ability level and not the individual mon level. I’ve been told it would be a large waste of time to individually test things like Trapinch or Wynaut or Gothita, but IMO bans really need to be as individually catered as possible. It’s conceivable one of these would be fine in OU. Similar to discussion of Magnet Pull Zone, why not suspect Zone. If magneton fills the hole, do it again. I doubt magnemite would be much of problem.

Nuance is swept away whenever trapping abilities are being discussed but I think it’s worth embracing. Why is StagGothita banned? Because we are lazy? Same goes for discussing Magnet Pull. Would we ban Meltan? I am firmly in the suspect Pokémon, not abilities camp. People assert that Shadow Tag and Arena Trap are broken on all users but it simply is untested conjecture.

You ban the aspect that is broken. In case of stag and arena trap, the ability and its effect was broken, not the specific mons.

You have examples like galar darm to compare to, where people insist on banning gorilla tactics when in reality its the combination of the mon as a whole, its speed, power, movepool and the ability altogether that is broken. Again, you target the heart of the problem, if its an individual then we ban the individual, if its multiplte cases (multiple, not ALL) and the common denominator is the ability in question, we ban the ability
 
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