Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Jokler]

One misconception I see that continues to exist is that Zone only traps 3 Steel types in OU. This is simply not the case as Zone can threaten or at least force certain plays from ALL steel types bar Tran in OU.

I will be using the Air Balloon Iron Defense 3 Attacks Zone as an example as I have the most experience using that set and is the most potent imho.

1) The 3 mons Corvi, Ferro and Skarm are already obvious so let's move on.

2) Melmetal - Zone always outspeeds and gets 2 IDs up before Melly can hit it with EQ which it survives at that point and then kills with Press. Melly is hopeless in this situation as even Superpower is not enough. Choiced sets have it even rougher as locking into any of DIB, T Punch, Ice Punch is a death sentence.

3) Kartana - Kart is a Steel that doesn't fear Zone at all as it outspeeds and straight up kill Zone but this is an example of Zone influencing and forcing certain plays.

A very common set Kart runs is Scarfed and that set is used to revenge kill and threaten offensively right? But it really struggles to do that when Zone is in the back. Kart is stuck in a catch 22 situation where clicking anything besides Sacred Sword is instant death.

A very common example is Lele + Zone, You simply won't dream of clicking Sacred Sword vs Lele. Thus, even your offensive check to opposing offense, that is able to straight up kill it's the potential trapper, has to play awkwardly due to the possibility of being trapped.


4) Bisharp - Bisharp has to be at +2 boosting Item Knock to kill Zone, Zone can even hard switch into Knock and then take the followed up weakened Knock and kill it straight up with Press. Even if you don't hard switch Zone on Bish, it is forced to either die or always be at +2 when killing something. That also means you can defog in peace.

5) Exca - Exca actually does get
killed from 73%. Sand is already in a pretty bad spot as is and your sand sweeper having to wait around for Zone to lose it's Balloon before it can come in is not helping matters. This combined with the 3 originally mentioned mons and Bish also means that Zone has a significant impact on the Hazard game, trapping 2 Spikers, the best defogger, the best Spinner and the Defog punisher.

6) Scizor - Ok this one is my favorite example because this showes why trapping is ridiculous. Initially Scizor ran SD Knock BP Roost but then everyone realised that, "Shit we lose to Zone with this." And switched out SD for Uturn which is so much more passive and non threatening. This should have been bad enough on it's own but the story doesn't end there, no. Zone STILL effectively ruins Scizor as it always outspeeds Bulky Scizors and forces it to take 35%-40% with Tbolt before Uturn. You just can't stay in and Roost spam due to the threat of Iron Defense Press doing 60% on the Uturn.

You know what a 65% Scizor is in range of? 2HKO by Specs Psychic from Lele and Specs Ice Beam from Kyurem is a roll. It fails at the one job it is supposed to do despite running Uturn specifically to get away from Zone.


See? These examples illustrate how Zone can be frustrating for nearly all Steel types save Tran. You don't simply look at if it can kill the Steel in a 1v1. It affects the very way they need to be played even if they do actually beat Zone and force awkward plays.


Another thing I saw was calling it a 50/50 where Zone user wins if they get the double right but they lose if they get wrong. This is way too straight forward and an incorrect explanation of how things go down.

A free double switch into Chomp or Tran simply doesn't win you the game. So getting it wrong as a Zone user once or twice is not the end of the world. On the other hand, just getting the double switch right once for Zone is a guaranteed trap so the problem is that the 50/50 is much more skewed in the favour of the Zone user with better returns.


Lastly, Fire Spin, Whirlpool etc. Are not broken because YOU can control what gets trapped. It is not an automatic effect with an ability. The very uncompetitive nature of trapping is out of the windows for these when your counters can't be singled out forcefully. Teams are also loaded with Pivot moves nowadays so they are actually pretty bad instead of being broken. It works mostly when you are caught off guard by Pex or Bro using Block or something and by Fini because he is the Goat.

Magma Tran is a whole another beast entirely.

 

[Gomi]

I don't understand the point of a magnet pull ban in a gen where Magnezone is at its most fishy, A pokemon that cant even succesfully trap most of the steels without proper conditioning and that doesn't preform like any of the utility a steel does, bar like checking weavile, Koko, and Zolt a little. EQ Melm is not an uncommon set, Air Balloon isnt super common on ID zone as a whole as items like Chople for messing with kart are mostly better, Skarm can whirl to deny it free entry while forcing awkward "is he gonna spike or switch or what" scenarios, Excadrill is rare as hell, Kart usually achieves enough before being trapped that's fairly ok to let it go, I could go on.

It's really not that bad this gen, most steels can outplay it and putting it on your team has some very serious implications on the rest of your team's structure because of how garbage it can be when you really would've preferred an actual steel type. Choosing a set is actually pretty difficult since Specs is incapable of removing Ferro (without voltage which is good dont get me wrong but specific) and other sets either A) end up midgrounding like expert belt and have little to no defensive utility or B) go with standard ID and fail to even OHKO Corv or provide much of an offensive threat in most MUs at all.


That being said im indifferent because ability based trapping is generally just kind of shit and encourages matchup fishing so meh

minor thing

You know what a 65% Scizor is in range of? 2HKO by Specs Psychic from Lele and Specs Ice Beam from Kyurem is a roll. It fails at the one job it is supposed to do despite running Uturn specifically to get away from Zone.

Scizor tends to fall into this range attempting to maintain momentum regardless, hell specs Lele's psychic stab only needs you to be at like 80 to lose. You just force prediction with your Vile and find oppurtunities to roost where you can, aka what you would do with a scizor anyways.

 

[Ctann]

Bro, I highly encourage you to check your facts before trying to correct someone else. That RNG thing is one example of what is considered uncompetitive, not the entire scope of it. Look at literally any Trapping Ability suspect and they call it uncompetitive, why? because switching is a fundamental part of singles and it is not far from saying that singles is built on the principle of switching. One party being able to prevent the opposition from doing one of the very basic move in Mons, that is exactly the what being "Uncompetitive" is. Literally nobody ever said Magnet Pull is "Too Much for OU".



First things first, I always find it so funny when people add their own pointers and COUNTER them on their own to strengthen their argument. I never said "Ferro is Bad", and I never even mentioned Rilla in these posts.

Either way, this what I mean when I say that I never got a decent Pro Magnet Pull argument. I will break this reply down in three sentences for ya guys, "Your team is bad, I personally can play around Zone, Run different counters to those mons if they get trapped." I don't get in what world this is a valid counter argument of the breakdown of my scenario of Corvi vs a Zone team, the plays that are forced and how disadvantaged the Corvi user is in the weight of prediction.

That is the root of the very problem. Why is "playing around" Zone to that degree acceptable for these Steel types? Are steel types really that head and shoulders above the rest of them that they need to be balanced out by being trapped? IMHO, I definitely don't believe this.


I will give ya people a very simple scenario to illustrate this, say, your counter to the DD Roost Wingbeat EQ Dnite is Corvi (Let's just assume for a minute, despite everyone and their mother running Ice Punch now) and they have a Zone in the back. Now, Corvi is a perfectly good counter as Dnite just has 8 Wingbeats against it and it's not a 2HKO but in this scenario it's completely flipped, you LITERALLY can't outplay this as the Corvi user. They can keep staying in with Dnite and double to Zone any turn they feel like. That's already very rough and low odds for you but also consider that somehow you lucked out and got it right, they could just repeat this do it until Corvi get's trapped. You are not outplaying here, you are both playing slots that the other person will double or not.

This might seem like a very specific scenario but it's not impossible to come across in a battle. The argument that run "a different counter then" is invalid imo as I think it is only valid if they are able to overwhelm your counter with good switched and offensive pressure, not one double switch that you can't escape from.



Sire, I humbly apologize for putting a small anecdote after an actual argument (Hey that's unintentional 5 word alliteration). I am truly ashamed that you had the misfortune of having to look at that, that monstrosity of a post while everything you wrote was so insightful and knowledgeable.

See? these people start to attack when they don't have an actual point. I wrote some actual points against Magnet Pull and this dude picks up the one satirical line from the post and goes of on that. Also it's quite hypocritical that this dude is the one who says that I provide no evidence when he literally talked in the air the whole time without one point to illustrate.

Also bro why the hell are you comparing Zone to Cind, Zyggy and Mag? ATLEAST compare it to Dugtrio or Goth if you really want to.

That is all I have to say. Honestly, I have nothing against dude. I am not trying to have a battle of words with him but I always find it so sad that people are just sitting there ready to pounce on a random kid on internet. I am just discussing my views on the meta game here and nothing else but these guys for some reason just want to make it personal over mons, heck, over an ability.

i am unsure why you seem to be very bitter. Trapping is as much a deliberate mechanic as switching is. Whether or not it is uncompetitive is up to definition. Usually things like sand veil Garchomp and kings rock cloyster have been brought up as uncompetitive.

Regardless it’s not relevant in this situation

—

First things first, I always find it so funny when people add their own pointers and COUNTER them on their own to strengthen their argument. I never said "Ferro is Bad", and I never even mentioned Rilla in these posts.

Please elaborate? My focus is on knock off users who don’t need team support to remove potential shed shells. Rillaboom is the best example. If you’re super worried about a steel type being able to be a counter to dragonite or other Pokémon that doesn’t have knock off. Shed shell exists.

—

That is the root of the very problem. Why is "playing around" Zone to that degree acceptable for these Steel types? Are steel types really that head and shoulders above the rest of them that they need to be balanced out by being trapped? IMHO, I definitely don't believe this.

I fail to understand why this is something unique to magnet pull or “uncompetitive” mechanics. Any good threat in OU needs to be “played around”. If you don’t have a plan to deal with specs dragapult, you will have a hard time.

—

<scenario with corviknight v. Dragonite>

This might seem like a very specific scenario but it's not impossible to come across in a battle. The argument that run "a different counter then" is invalid imo as I think it is only valid if they are able to overwhelm your counter with good switched and offensive pressure, not one double switch that you can't escape from.

okay, so this would affect corviknight’s viability as a counter to dragonite? If you are struggling against dragonite and magnezone then shed shell is logical. If you now complain that it will lose shed shell to knock off, you now have 3 Pokémon on your opponents team dedicated to breaking your corviknight.

please note I am focusing on shed shell for simplicity. As someone who runs steel types weak to magnezone all the time, I don’t typically use shed shell as a method to curb magnezone.

—

Also bro why the hell are you comparing Zone to Cind, Zyggy and Mag? ATLEAST compare it to Dugtrio or Goth if you really want to.

They’re the most recent bans that came to mind. There’s also kings rock Cloyster, but that was banned under the premise of “uncompetitive due to manipulating odds too much” rather than “too good for OU”.

gothitelle is probably hard to compare to, as I find it will only be good against very limited teams. Dugtrio on the other hand would definitely make sense as too OP. It’s highly valuable against things like heatran , slowking-G, toxapex and fast but fragile Pokémon too. Not opposed to it being retested tho.. then biggest difference is that it’s less obvious which threat a goth or dugtrio will be optimised to take out. They’re harder to play against until you know the set. Of course usually a dugtrio is banded, as usually it’s targets are bulky ground weak types.

—

Please note nothing was made personal .. I am addressing points raised only.

—

I think if you asked users if they thought magnet pull was OP and/or anti-competitive, that would be a good way to gauge whether it’s worth banning or not. My arguments are mostly that it’s probably not OP. I also argued that kings rock cloyster isn’t necessarily OP, and the metagame needed to adapt to it a little more. But people deemed that anti-competitive, and it was banned.

 

[Plushietran]

you LITERALLY can't outplay this as the Corvi use

God i dont like engaging in these useless discussions but here we go,

This statement is just incorrect, the corvi user has some ways to outplay magnezone, mainly with smart double switching and pivoting with uturn, which means the zone user has to awkwardly double switch it in,

Other steels have ways around it, like melmetal running earthquake or predicting well with kartana

Not to mention it has other implications outside of battle, since you have to run a crucial team slot on a pokemon that'll be not useful in any other matchup, and its a steel type that doesent check things like weavile, so it makes your team structure vulnerable to things like that, so you'll have to use carefully on your team

I can get the frustration with thise matchup dependant type of trapping, but i dont think its oppressive enough to warrant a ban

 

[SaveMeJebus]

With so many mons running boots, I don't see why hazardless teams won't be a thing in the near future. Not only do you open up a move slot on your own team but you also most likely take away a slot from your opponent since Defog is almost as mandatory as Stealth Rock

Posted this a while back. Glad to see more and more teams going hazardless such as the one currently being discussed

 

[Deleted User 464209]

Finchinator, you brought this Magnet Pull discussion on the thread. Is this what you wanted?

Also, why was king's rock banned, but Stench was not? Which is which!>!?!

Holder's attacks without a chance to make the target flinch gain a 10% chance to make the target flinch.

This Pokemon's attacks without a chance to make the target flinch gain a 10% chance to make the target flinch.

Duck Dynasty

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Ice Beam
- Foul Play
- Teleport / Toxic

Certified rare Arctozolt pivot. Take 50 from bolt beak and then outspeed. Porygon also has other uses, like being a beastly pivot into all kinds of crap.

 

[The Funky Reason]

Jokler makes a compelling argument for magnet pull being uncompetitive, the same arguments used against other traping abilities being uncompetitive. Unfortunately for him, Smogon abandoned consistency a long time ago, so it isn't really any use.
We banned one RNG item totally not just because of cloyster and then left a whole slew of them still in the game including quick draw, stench, veil and cloak, quick claw, bright powder etc. We also leave one trapping ability in despite forcing the same awkward 50/50s always in favor of the trapper.
Just remember the next time anyone makes an argument for some dumb shit like banning gorilla tactics or boots on cinder that consistency is not a valid argument because it's not something we abide by.

 

[Scarfire]

Jokler makes a compelling argument for magnet pull being uncompetitive, the same arguments used against other traping abilities being uncompetitive. Unfortunately for him, Smogon abandoned consistency a long time ago, so it isn't really any use.
We banned one RNG item totally not just because of cloyster and then left a whole slew of them still in the game including quick draw, stench, veil and cloak, quick claw, bright powder etc. We also leave one trapping ability in despite forcing the same awkward 50/50s always in favor of the trapper.
Just remember the next time anyone makes an argument for some dumb shit like banning gorilla tactics or boots on cinder that consistency is not a valid argument because it's not something we abide by.

It has been consistent though. Things have been banned because they are problematic. Kings rock was an issue in SS OU. Bright powder and quick claw, simply were not. I see people bring up these other hax items a lot in some weird defence of kings rock and with the same "consistency" nonsense, its almost like you are purposefully ignoring that one had a negative impact on the metagame whereas the rest had no impact whatsoever.

And no, magent pull doesn't pull the same 50-50s, as I labelled in an earlier post, all the (very short list mind you) of magnet pullable targets can all viably counterplay zone on their own, without giving up their functionality. It is not the same at all as what arena trap did, where any mon that got stuck in with an Atrap mon was bound to just be removed from that match.

 

[Revelation]

One angle I haven’t seen mentioned is how Magnet Pull low-key has a purpose. Trapping Steels is meant to balance out the incredible defensive utility the Steel typing provides.

This conversation keeps focusing on the offensive Pokémon that Magnezone opens up for but doesn’t really acknowledge how many offensive threats are being kept in check by a handful of Steel types.

Maybe the problem isn’t where we think it is.

 

[Ehmcee]

Why are we delving into the intricacies of why Magnet Pull is fine on Magnezone, but Arena Trap isn't on everything else?

I personally see this issue of two sides of a coin: Either ban trapping abilities as a whole, or delve into the individual abusers case by case.
If trapping is seen as "uncompetitive" or impedes on "switching is a fundamental part of the game", why are we ignoring this for Magnet Pull?

As said before, the "it only targets 1 type" argument literally shouldn't matter, do trapping abilities lead to uncompetitive scenarios: YES or NO.

Fun Tidbit

Banning Magnet Pull would make Meltan Ubers by technicality lmao

 

[Negative Charge]

Something that has always bothered me with trapping ability discussion is that the conversation always hovers at the ability level and not the individual mon level. I’ve been told it would be a large waste of time to individually test things like Trapinch or Wynaut or Gothita, but IMO bans really need to be as individually catered as possible. It’s conceivable one of these would be fine in OU. Similar to discussion of Magnet Pull Zone, why not suspect Zone. If magneton fills the hole, do it again. I doubt magnemite would be much of problem.

Nuance is swept away whenever trapping abilities are being discussed but I think it’s worth embracing. Why is StagGothita banned? Because we are lazy? Same goes for discussing Magnet Pull. Would we ban Meltan? I am firmly in the suspect Pokémon, not abilities camp. People assert that Shadow Tag and Arena Trap are broken on all users but it simply is untested conjecture.

 

[Scarfire]

Why are we delving into the intricacies of why Magnet Pull is fine on Magnezone, but Arena Trap isn't on everything else?

I personally see this issue of two sides of a coin: Either ban trapping abilities as a whole, or delve into the individual abusers case by case.
If trapping is seen as "uncompetitive" or impedes on "switching is a fundamental part of the game", why are we ignoring this for Magnet Pull?

As said before, the "it only targets 1 type" argument literally shouldn't matter, do trapping abilities lead to uncompetitive scenarios: YES or NO.

Fun Tidbit

Banning Magnet Pull would make Meltan Ubers by technicality lmao

"It only targets 1 type argument literally shouldn't matter"

...Why? Its a significant difference? A pool of mons being able to trap anything they want to be teched to trap vs 1 mon being able to sometimes trap a small group of mons, all of which can viably counter said trap attempt.

Why doesn't this matter? I feel like this goes right back into the whole Kings rock vs other hax items "consistency" argument. Grouping things together that don't have the same impact, only a semblence of the same effect.

They are not equal in uncompetitive aspect or brokeness. The argument literally should matter.

Something that has always bothered me with trapping ability discussion is that the conversation always hovers at the ability level and not the individual mon level. I’ve been told it would be a large waste of time to individually test things like Trapinch or Wynaut or Gothita, but IMO bans really need to be as individually catered as possible. It’s conceivable one of these would be fine in OU. Similar to discussion of Magnet Pull Zone, why not suspect Zone. If magneton fills the hole, do it again. I doubt magnemite would be much of problem.

Nuance is swept away whenever trapping abilities are being discussed but I think it’s worth embracing. Why is StagGothita banned? Because we are lazy? Same goes for discussing Magnet Pull. Would we ban Meltan? I am firmly in the suspect Pokémon, not abilities camp. People assert that Shadow Tag and Arena Trap are broken on all users but it simply is untested conjecture.

You ban the aspect that is broken. In case of stag and arena trap, the ability and its effect was broken, not the specific mons.

You have examples like galar darm to compare to, where people insist on banning gorilla tactics when in reality its the combination of the mon as a whole, its speed, power, movepool and the ability altogether that is broken. Again, you target the heart of the problem, if its an individual then we ban the individual, if its multiplte cases (multiple, not ALL) and the common denominator is the ability in question, we ban the ability

 

[Liquidocelot]

I'm of the opinion that we really have two options here.

1: We can ban Magnet Pull and be consistent with the bans against trapping abilities and there uncompetitiveness.

2: We can unban all trapping abilities and just ban the worst abusers. Aka Trio, Telle and maybe Wob

I much prefer the second option. Mostly because I love Chaos and the idea of trappers being back in the game is something I love. Not only that but I'd love to see a meta with Diglett, Gothic, Trapinch and other LC mons viable in OU. Also I'd love the idea of mons easily able to take out Pex, Tran and others that the current much like Corv and Skarm and such.

I also hate the idea of banning Zone and giving more power to Corv, Skarm and other steels when we now have a consistent way of beating them that rewards smart switching and counterplay which is my favorite part of pokemon personally.

 

[AM]

I much prefer the second option. Mostly because I love Chaos and the idea of trappers being back in the game is something I love. Not only that but I'd love to see a meta with Diglett, Gothic, Trapinch and other LC mons viable in OU. Also I'd love the idea of mons easily able to take out Pex, Tran and others that the current much like Corv and Skarm and such.

.....

 

[Finchinator]

We need a tiering order of operations like they teach PEMDAS in math class honestly

 

[Plushietran]

We need a tiering order of operations like they teach PEMDAS in math class honestly

I can relate and its scaring me

 

[Baloor]

I much prefer the second option. Mostly because I love Chaos and the idea of trappers being back in the game is something I love. Not only that but I'd love to see a meta with Diglett, Gothic, Trapinch and other LC mons viable in OU. Also I'd love the idea of mons easily able to take out Pex, Tran and others that the current much like Corv and Skarm and such.

why is this going into the direction of "unban blatantly broken thing because funny". ive been refraining from commenting on magnet pull for the time being due to a variety of reasons, but this train of thought is the exact opposite of productive. if we're talking about banning magnet pull which only traps a smaller portion of the meta, why on earth would it make sense to unban the abilities that literally trap almost anything. so it would be real nice if we dont fall back into infinite void of unban uber just cause pls finch thats been happening in this thread for the past like 2 months.

 

[Finchinator]

There are no (current) intentions to unban anything prior to new releases.

 

[Endrism]

See the problem with comparing Arena Trap and Shadow Tag with Magnet Pull is exactly the argument that's been said. Being exclusive to only steels does matter a lot. Take Dugtrio for example:

Dugtrio swapped in on whatever it wanted to trap, whenever it wanted to trap. If it found a target it can kill, it trapped it and killed it instantly. It wasn't uncompetitive, it was unfair. Your Pex or Heatran could be gone in an instant and you had no control, no prediction, no nothing. Especially with Teleport being as potent as it is, Dugtrio could get in for free, while scouting if you stayed in on those mons and just outright killed them without giving you a choice in the matter. Dugtrio controlled the momentum at all times, and if it wants your Pex dead, your Pex is going to die whether you like it or not. So what if they banned just Dugtrio? Well this happens:

252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 364-432 (94.3 - 111.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Diglett would do the exact same thing. No chance, no prediction, just teleport into diglett and OHKO the heatran. Arena Trap was absolutely busted beyond comprehension.

Gothitelle came in on things that couldn't touch it, set up 6 calm minds or cosmic powers, and demolished you. In some scenarios they would trap you turn 1 on your stealth rocker and its already too late. +6 Gothitelle Stored Power is devastating, and you probably could do nothing to stop it from happening. Completely broken and unfair. So what if they banned Gothitelle?

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Gothorita: 47-57 (14.5 - 17.5%) -- possible 6HKO
SAME DEAL. Gothorita at +6 Sp.D just sits on any special attacker and can retaliate with:
+6 0 SpA Gothorita Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 98-116 (30.1 - 35.6%) -- 34.2% chance to 3HKO
THATS JUST OFFENSIVE SETS. Defensive Confide and Charm sets would be a NIGHTMARE.

Now look at Magnezone. Magnezone comes in on the basic steels like Corviknight, Ferrothorn and Skarm, can beat Melmetal depending on the scenario and moveset, and loses to Heatran. It really helps open up opportunities for the rest of the team for sure, but it's 4x weakness to a type thats almost mandatory in todays meta is crucial. Weak to Fighting and Fire also hurts Magnezone big time. Magnezone punishes people who are not cautious, but if you play correctly Magnezone can be dealt with pretty well. It's not comparable to the absolute monsters that Arena Trap and Shadow Tag are, and is way more handleable.

 

[Verdas]

Heres my 2 cents on the Magnet Pull debate. I really don't think Magnet Pull deserves a ban at all. The only good user of it is Magnezone, who, while being an excellent mon, doesn't feel broken or uncompetitive. It has a specific role in trapping Steels so teammates can benefit. It's not as instant as Shadow Tag or Arena Trap, since its limited to a single pool of pokemon, and balances out the amazing defensive attributes of these pokemon, as without Magnezone having a presence in the tier, many of the fat steels would somewhat invalidate currently usable breakers like Rillaboom and Dragonite. A good example is Corviknight, who would become ridiculously hard to break for certain teams without having a presence in a game that is able to force it to switch in certain positions.

 

[ausma]

I much prefer the second option. Mostly because I love Chaos and the idea of trappers being back in the game is something I love. Not only that but I'd love to see a meta with Diglett, Gothic, Trapinch and other LC mons viable in OU. Also I'd love the idea of mons easily able to take out Pex, Tran and others that the current much like Corv and Skarm and such.

(lets not unban arena trap and shadow tag please)

 

[Plushietran]

View attachment 371252
(lets not unban arena trap and shadow tag please)

I wonder as well

 

[pulsar512b]

I would argue that arena trap, similar to magnet pull, can only effectively trap a limited pool of mons (in Dugtrio's case, ground-weak, in Goth's case, passive), and as such the limitations of magnet pull do not mean it necessarily is less (or for that matter, more) banworthy.

 

[Liquidocelot]

View attachment 371236

why is this going into the direction of "unban blatantly broken thing because funny". ive been refraining from commenting on magnet pull for the time being due to a variety of reasons, but this train of thought is the exact opposite of productive. if we're talking about banning magnet pull which only traps a smaller portion of the meta, why on earth would it make sense to unban the abilities that literally trap almost anything. so it would be real nice if we dont fall back into infinite void of unban uber just cause pls finch thats been happening in this thread for the past like 2 months.

My main point is being mostly that we should either ban Magnet pull for consistency sake if trapping itself is actually uncompetitive than Magnet Pull is should full under that definition just by being a trapping ability and not make exceptions.

Or instead we should unban other trapping abilities and ban the main abusers to keep it consistent. I completely disagree with this middleground we're in.

While yes I hope more for the ladder. In truth I actually think we should do the former as I do believe trapping as a whole is uncompetitive and that includes Magnet pull. But I like chaos and hope for the ladder even if I acknowledge the former is better.

 

[Ctann]

Big fan of the super simple concept of:

Ban something that is too good for OU.

If Magnet pull is too good, and provides such a signficant edge for one player over the other. Then logically, you could ban it. If magnezone provides this advantage specifically, ban magnezone rather than the ability. Otherwise are you soon banning Greninja by default? Libero is identical to protean and is what caused Cinderace to go to Ubers. Why can't non-gorilla tactics darm be okay, if sturdy magnezone is fine.. lol.

(just a note, its totally cool to ban specific abilities - think arena trap, libero, gorilla tactics - I reckon, this would mean Darmanitan and Cinderace could re-join the playable meta!)

---

On the other hand.. in-game mechanics that manipulate chance too much, and/or are tedious to play around, are logically separately evaluated:

• Items like kings rock, brightpowder
• Sleep and multi sleeping (the effect spore ability isn't banned, but it doesn't function correctly on showdown)
• OHKO moves
• Infinite battle techniques
• Evasion boosting moves
• Trapping moves and abilities

Specifically, these things allegedly offer little to no value other than manipulating chance, in the case of trapping moves, some users deem it to be "unfair" because it makes it an easier win for their opponent once a key part of their team is trapped.

If you're not a fan of trapping, then you frankly need a "no trapping clause" to be added to the evasion clause and sleep clause.

I mean, in theory its possible to play around evasion, OHKO and sleep, but the clauses are in place because players decided its more enjoyable to play with those mechanics limited. If you're going to ban an ability based on not wanting a deliberate in-game mechanic to function, then you need to have a clause for that entire mechanic. Its just cleaner like that and everyone is happy.