Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Moyashi]

How is it removing agency? It isn't making it so the opponent cannot reasonably force you out, like evasion does unless you run one of a few niche and underpowered moves which if not for evasion wouldn't be run at all,

Because it literally denies the opponent to act by going first. A great example would be QC Melmetal. Invalidates offensive counterplay when it procs. Let's say for example Melm v UrshifuR. Your at a point where Melm is your best remaining pokemon but your opponent has UrshifuR as theirs which can beat the rest of your team. It should be able to. Your opponent should win by all rights, but you click DIB and suddenly QC activates, you go first! And you flinch that UrshifuR and it can't act. Or worse, was previously chipped low enough and dies. The rest of the opponent's team if it is melmetal weak now auto loses. You didn't do anything to earn that win. You should have lost because the opponent played better. But QC said "lolno" and ripped their agency away.

and unless speed tiers are a literal, immutable godsend, it letting slower pokemon go first on average a fifth of the time in exchange for not being able to run an item isn't uncompetitive, not nearly to the degree youre stating.

Speed itself is a rule that determines order of action and it defines much of strategy and decision making both in building and in battle. Speed tiers exist as a basis of stability and balance. When an item exists that allows a pokemon to circumvent that and thus beat its checks/counters, all due to RNG that deprives opponents of their action that they should have gotten first, yes that is quite uncompetitive.

You go on about how QC is RNG and hax and totally unlike TR, yet right after say how TR is inconsistent and requires teamspace. Well, 1/5 is really inconsistent in terms of pokemon games,

The only similarity is their inconsistency. But for different reasons. One is competitive reasons (matchup issues, tight teambuilding restraints), while the other is because it relies on pure RNG.

The whole point of QC is it invalidates the concept of checks and counters. And much like KR and Brightpower, you can't realistically gleam a QC Melm from team preview. So you could have a perfectly well built team with Melm answers, and then QC drops and says no to those answers.

How is Kings Rock any different from Crunch, or fishing for Scald burns? Its trying over and over to get a low percent chance second effect that will hopefully change how the game will go, and these are regarded as competitive and strategic.

KR is an item that has the potential to remove all agency from an opponent and invalidate what otherwise should check a mon (famously KR Cloyster). Whereas Scald is a move that can cripple some mons, but it doesn't deny actions from the opponent. And there is counterplay to it. Ample at that. Fishing for stat drops is the same way.

 

[Lord Xen III]

A scald burn will obviously cripple a physical attacker and wear down everything else, but it does not change what the actual checks and counters to a scald user are, since they are generally going to be the ones that will either force said mon out, not particularly mind a scald burn, or not have to get burned at all ( the latter being less common fwiw). Meanwhile, that quick claw proc can reward a bad play (let's use Melmetal as the main example cause DIB is silly) because you stayed in on a mon that would otherwise beat you because speed tiers are a big part of what defines a pokemon's checks and counters. This is understandably where a lot of the frustration with stuff like flinching and other hax occurs but if you outspeed a mon that uses a flinch move you outspeed it or you can pressure it into not being able to set up (like with G-moltres or something). While hax will always be present, I would assume that you at least appeal to the interest of not adding more than already exists or is necessary.

On a more personal level, so much of the discussion around the hax items feels like arguing for arguing's sake. I get that it can be fun to have a cheesy item for ladder sometimes but I'm not gonna tiptoe around how frustrating it can be to lose against hax even if the smogon stockholm syndrome in me would go "wow i should've played better to not let myself get haxed!" since that tends to be the kneejerk reaction anyone has when someone else talks about how truly annoying it is. I like tiers like AG having the silly fun stuff and think it's fine there but quick claw is not helping competitive pokemon's case for showcasing skill

i think people are worried about slippery slope logics but like that's the thing, rng elements in pokemon lessen the overall competitive nature of the game, so a slippery slope down this mountain isn't really the worst thing. that aside, it's clear that different rng components have differing amounts of uncompetitiveness and counterplay ranging from things like ohko moves to swagger to evasion and that the reason quick draw./quick claw wasn't banned like evasion was at the end of last year is because simply rnging initative isn't gamebreaking on its own as you still have the option to tank blows and hit back depending on the mons in question. so it's not as uncompetitive as evasion per se but that doesn't mean you need to be on evasion level to be banned from the tier, unless of course the tiering administration deems that to be the case.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

i think people are worried about slippery slope logics but like that's the thing, rng elements in pokemon lessen the overall competitive nature of the game, so a slippery slope down this mountain isn't really the worst thing. that aside, it's clear that different rng components have differing amounts of uncompetitiveness and counterplay ranging from things like ohko moves to swagger to evasion and that the reason quick draw wasn't banned like evasion was at the end of last year is because simply rnging initative isn't gamebreaking on its own as you still have the option to tank blows and hit back depending on the mons in question. so it's not as uncompetitive as evasion per se but that doesn't mean you need to be on evasion level to be banned from the tier, unless of course the tiering administration deems that to be the case.

Yeah I think there's always a subjectivity to issues regarding RNG implications but that's just... why the whole tiering and banning systems have to exist for competitive singles to reach any semblance of balance lol. Slippery slope logics to me are also just annoying because they aren't really based on material reality (the issue at hand) and instead just love to go "lol ban FLAMETHROWER FOR THE BURN CHANCE?". I find scald utterly obnoxious and know I'm not alone in that but I at least see value in taking a chance for crippling a dangerous mon with status while I don't think that an item that just randomly deletes speed tiers sometimes is adding anything of value to the game.

 

[Dreadfury]

How is this luck any worse than full para, or focus miss, or any other non-guaranteed action in this game? Sure, 20% chance to move first is bad, but a 25% chance to not attack at all is acceptable, or a 30% chance to miss that FB on a Heatran, or insert random chance here, and there aren't any calls to action on that. This isn't like evasion where it and it alone makes shit practically unplayable, but just a 1/5 chance, worse than OHKO moves, to move first. This one item, which if ran makes it so you can't have a LO or Band or whatever, simply makes you go first. Its a one-turn Trick Room against your fast sweeper, and Trick Room isn't broken, so why is a held item with a less than 1/4 chance to even proc in the talks for being broken?

Counterpoint: why was King's Rock banned when it was barely useful on a select handful of mons like Cloyster and Beat Up Weavile despite not falling under Evasion Clause? With Bright Powder, Snow Cloak, and Sand Veil you could certainly make that argument, but King's Rock was just a total RNG fish item that was generally useless unless it procced but could potentially change the course of an entire game if it procs. If King's Rock was banned on the grounds that mons that abused multi-hits had a non-negligible chance to RNG fish their way to a win, why shouldn't Quick Claw be banned on similar grounds?

I don't think that comparing Quick Claw and/or Quick Draw to inaccurate moves or Scald burns or Iron Head flinches is intuitive, nor do I think that comparing it to Trick Room is intuitive either.

If you're putting your Ground-type into a situation where it could be on the receiving end of a Pex's Scald burn, it is 100% your fault. If you're being forced into a situation where your only reliable way to break past Heatran is by landing one or two Focus Blasts on it, that's shitty teambuilding and/or backing yourself into a shitty situation where you didn't take advantage of chipping Heatran throughout the game in the first place. You have mons like Fini that prevent Scald burns, you have your own Pex that doesn't particularly care too much about getting Burned, mons with Scald don't fear getting Frozen as much as others, etc. And, most importantly, I know that the Lele in front of me is running Focus Blast, because that's what Lele runs. But you won't (and, realistically, can't) be like "hey, whoops, I didn't prepare for and/or play around Quick Draw+Quick Claw G-Slowbro this game!"

And comparing QD/QC to Trick Room isn't intuitive either because Trick Room is very deterministic in terms of how it works in theory and in practice its flaws are more of a matchup fish issue than a sheer RNG fish issue. Trick Room is very much a gimmick, just like these aforementioned items, but Trick Room is a gimmick that can (and usually is) played around in a relatively straightforward way. QD/QC is an individual 20%/30% chance each turn to just outspeed whatever's in front of you within the same priority bracket. More often than not, the mon you're running Quick Claw on is just going to be running a shit item that doesn't do anything; but here and there you'll have a mon arbitrarily running a terrible item getting lucky and just straight-up cheesing its way past a matchup it shouldn't win in any world normally. In the case of Quick Draw+Quick Claw in particular, those odds are actually comparable to King's Rock Cloyster's odds of flinching something with a 5-hit move. That combo is obviously extremely telegraphed compared to vanilla Quick Claw since it requires a team to run G-Bro, but King's Rock Cloyster was generally pretty obvious as well during its time. This ultimately transforms QD+QC from "a one-turn Trick Room against your fast sweeper" to "a 44% chance for a mon with base 30 Speed to outspeed whatever is in front of it," and that's a very different situation from fighting a Trick Room team.

Lastly, nobody here is saying "Quick Claw (or Quick Draw) is broken," and if anyone is saying it's broken that person is objectively incorrect. G-Darm is broken. Dracovish is broken. Urshifu-S is broken. Spectrier is broken. Cinderace is broken. A mon like Calyrex-S or Necrozma-Dusk-Mane would be broken in an OU context. The mons I mentioned are just far, far, far too strong for OU and still are to this day and would undoubtedly warp the entire metagame around themselves should any one of them exist here. Neither Quick Claw nor the only mon that has Quick Draw as an ability is even remotely comparable to any of those mons I mentioned, because they are not broken. The argument is that these two elements are inherently uncompetitive, under the same extremely broad umbrella as Evasion, Baton Pass cheese in many generations, Moody, Shadow Tag/Arena Trap (although some may argue that these two abilities are outright broken; I believe they could be both), and King's Rock are.

If King's Rock is uncompetitive - and I absolutely believe it is, and that was the general consensus when the Council banned it - then I can't really understand why Quick Draw and Quick Claw are not considered uncompetitive on the same grounds as King's Rock was. And if Moody even without Evasion (which was degenerate enough that shitmons like Glalie, Bibarel, and fucking Bidoof were deemed problematic) and Shadow Tag/Arena Trap are considered uncompetitive, I think Quick Draw as an Ability should be too since the ability in a vacuum will always be able to cheese out wins here and there, no matter what mon it happens to be on, and the fact that Quick Claw as an item exists and has very rarely been used on mons like Melmetal and Manaphy (although the latter was more of a BDSP thing and Manaphy as a whole package was deemed outright broken in that tier, with or without Quick Claw) is a testament to the fact that it's something that very much exists. And again; nobody thinks that Quick Claw and Quick Draw are broken; just that they're possibly uncompetitive, not unlike other elements that have been dealt with before, with the King's Rock ban in particular being the one I think this aligns the most with.

EDIT: A typo

 

[Lord Xen III]

Yeah I think there's always a subjectivity to issues regarding RNG implications but that's just... why the whole tiering and banning systems have to exist for competitive singles to reach any semblance of balance lol. Slippery slope logics to me are also just annoying because they aren't really based on material reality (the issue at hand) and instead just love to go "lol ban FLAMETHROWER FOR THE BURN CHANCE?". I find scald utterly obnoxious and know I'm not alone in that but I at least see value in taking a chance for crippling a dangerous mon with status while I don't think that an item that just randomly deletes speed tiers sometimes is adding anything of value to the game.

yeah scald itself isn't exactly the poster child for uncontroversial as i've seen many people over the last three generations complain about it, but as noted in this thread scald has tons of counter play from water absorb, to status absorbers, to special attackers not being crippled by it outside of the chip which can be compensated for by passive recovery items and healing moves. but scald can be uncompetitive if your answer to a water type mon is a physical attacker and it just gets crippled, and whether you win or lose came down to a rng. Flamethrower can be like that too, as for example, as many people use Garchomp or Dragonite as their Volcarona check, and they both can just be rendered incapable of beating Volcarona if the chomp lacks toxic or Dragonite lacks heal bell off a 10% chance. But it's a very niche circumstance.

so while it's uncompetitive to a degree the counterplay to it ample such that a scald burn or flamethrower burn for the most part isn't really gonna be gamebreaking, and on stall and semi stall you typically have a heal bell or aromatherapy user. Whereas quick claw by randomly overturning the usually prescribed initiative can enable many powerful wallbreakers to just sweep you make it a night mare for any playstyle other than stall really.

 

[blooclipse]

It basically all boils down to
you can play around a 30% miss chance. You can play around a 10% burn chance. But you can't play around a random 20% chance to just not do what something was supposed to do. You can have a complete counter like air balloon tran in against a melm, and then just lose because of a 10% quick claw + DIB flinch chance. The flinch chance wasn't the problem, because melm usually goes last. Whats the problem is a random chance to just remove counterplay and get rid of the skillful aspect of competitive play.
QC isn't broken, its uncompetitive.

 

[Lord Xen III]

It basically all boils down to
you can play around a 30% miss chance. You can play around a 10% burn chance. But you can't play around a random 20% chance to just not do what something was supposed to do. You can have a complete counter like air balloon tran in against a melm, and then just lose because of a 10% quick claw + DIB flinch chance. The flinch chance wasn't the problem, because melm usually goes last. Whats the problem is a random chance to just remove counterplay and get rid of the skillful aspect of competitive play.
QC isn't broken, its uncompetitive.

well i'd probably reword it by saying in much more scenarios, it's much easier to snowball off of quick claw cheese than some of these other rng based attacks. you could still have your tornadus lose to a rillaboom for example because you missed hurricane.

 

[blooclipse]

well i'd probably reword it by saying in much more scenarios, it's much easier to snowball off of quick claw cheese than some of these other rng based attacks. you could still have your tornadus lose to a rillaboom for example because you missed hurricane.

The problem is, if your game comes down to a 70% chance, thats basically your fault. It's possible to play around it and its a fault in the teambuilder and in the game too.
qc is just stupid.

 

[Lord Xen III]

The problem is, if your game comes down to a 70% chance, thats basically your fault. It's possible to play around it and its a fault in the teambuilder and in the game too.
qc is just stupid.

But like the quick claw user is also taking that risk by bringing the game down to 20-44% chances determining whether they win or lose, instead of running other items like damage reducing berries or LO or Choice Band etc. They can avoid it through the builder or in game scenarios but it's not always possible and they are still giving a luck based win condition. Luck management only goes so far.

And in general if it was always feasible to build teams without inaccurate moves then it wouldn't really ever be a discussion. For example , pinkacross notes here that focus blast was mandatory on zam for the team to work

"
Next up is Focus Blast. I’m sorry to have to put this on this set, but it is absolutely necessary. Focus Blast is fantastic coverage for Ferrothorn, Bisharp, Melmetal, Heatran, and more. Try to play to avoid having to use Focus Blast, but when it hits, it gives Alakazam incredible coverage. Lastly is Nasty Plot, which doubles Alakazam’s Special Attack and lets it sweep. It is very helpful in a lot of matchups, and very threatening late game in particular.

"
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/alakazam-psyspam-peaked-1-2086-ft-galarian-moltres.3694416/


So it comes back to the inherent luck based nature of pokemon otherwise we'd have a very stale metagame if we only used the mons that carry strong but 100% accurate moves.


I agree quick claw is much worse than a focus or hurricane miss though

 

[odt]

Lumping Focus Blast/Hurricane in the same category as QC/QD has little legitimacy as an argument in this situation imo. Teambuilding is preparing for the worst and hoping for the best. If your betting on Focus Blast/Hurricane to miss in order to survive you didn't have an answer to begin with. You can't prepare for QC/QD, because moves that strong shouldn't have priority and definitely shouldn't be able to flinch. If you don't mind consistency by all means run inaccurate moves but if people start banking on QC/QD just to fuck the odd person over the metagame as a whole is devalued.

 

[Lord Xen III]

Lumping Focus Blast/Hurricane in the same category as QC/QD has little legitimacy as an argument in this situation imo. Teambuilding is preparing for the worst and hoping for the best. If your betting on Focus Blast/Hurricane to miss in order to survive you didn't have an answer to begin with. You can't prepare for QC/QD, because moves that strong shouldn't have priority and definitely shouldn't be able to flinch. If you don't mind consistency by all means run inaccurate moves but if people start banking on QC/QD just to fuck the odd person over the metagame as a whole is devalued.

yeah the big difference is that you are running QC/Quick Draw for a chance to outright sweep your opponent's team but presumbably even if it doesn't go off you still have other options like Veil, speed boosting abilities and moves, etc. but you now have a chance to beat stuff you normally couldn't through cheese which makes for highly polarizing games. Even if your opponent brought a team with 100% accurate moves, and made all the right decisions they could still lose to you

 

[Smashburn]

Regarding the conversation of whether or whether not Quick Claw and Quick Draw should be banned on the basis of competitive relevance, it strikes me as conceded that QC and QD wouldn't be banned, or at least looked at in the very near future. They are both fundamentally uncompetitive, negatively impacting the quality of skill-based gameplay. These priority related items give the leg up to rng reliant interactions that affect skilled play, under the pretense that the idea of creating a competitive environment is for the most skilled player (barring integral hax) to come out on top. I understand requiring the legitimacy of a concern to actually act on something, but even if this isn't seen in WCoP or other competitive scenes I think it would be best to have it looked at. It feels silly that something which is so blatantly discordant with Smogon's hax policies would be allowed to openly roam the competitive landscape.

There were some other comments regarding QC and QD, and I feel it needs clarified that broken ≠ uncompetitive. In some problematic cases they are related, but aside from that they are not one-in-the-same. Something being broken refers to applicability, while uncompetitiveness refers to the overall impact on skillful play. Additionally, the last exodus of rng related stuff specifically dealt with evasion based abilities and items, so it makes sense why Quick Claw and Quick Draw would have been skipped over; they are related to priority, rather than evasion.

 

[Smashburn]

But a change in subject:

Following very small discussion about Jirachi in the viability rankings, I wanted to look into what merits it had, what its possible sets were, and what relevance it has with recent trends. I stumbled across Eject Button, which I felt was an interesting pick.

Due to its all around bulk and Steel-Psychic-typing, Jirachi has a defensive profile for a few trending picks right now; namely Zapdos, Tapu Lele, and Clefable who have seen a rise in popularity in OU. Teams often overpreparing for threats like Weavile can't entirely compensate for Zapdos and Tapu Lele, or adjust for sets like CM Clefable, which is where Jirachi shines. However, its due-nothing nature and general lack of momentum often cease to justify it over other, more popular Steel-types picks in OU. Eject Button puts a little more spunk into Jirachi, and is complimented by its various utility options including Wish, Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock, Healing Wish, Encore, Toxic, and other slots like Future Sight, Magic Room, and Gravity.

Fast Wish passing with Eject Button is especially useful because it gets your breaker in safely and keeps it healthy while cancelling your opponent's momentum; something the other Eject Button pivots can't do in tandem with Jirachi's handy resistances.

Admittedly, Jirachi can't always do what it wants to. There are loads of other road blocks it suffers as a whole, and it is typically not worth using. However, I feel it is a fringe pick that, while not always applicable, provides some use in OU and is slept on. What do you guys think? I would greatly appreciate input on how you feel about Eject Button as an option, not only for Jirachi, but others like Landorus, Toxapex, Corviknight, etc. as well.

 

[Lord Xen III]

But a change in subject:

Following very small discussion about Jirachi in the viability rankings, I wanted to look into what merits it had, what its possible sets were, and what relevance it has with recent trends. I stumbled across Eject Button, which I felt was an interesting pick.

Due to its all around bulk and Steel-Psychic-typing, Jirachi has a defensive profile for a few trending picks right now; namely Zapdos, Tapu Lele, and Clefable who have seen a rise in popularity in OU. Teams often overpreparing for threats like Weavile can't entirely compensate for Zapdos and Tapu Lele, or adjust for sets like CM Clefable, which is where Jirachi shines. However, its due-nothing nature and general lack of momentum often cease to justify it over other, more popular Steel-types picks in OU. Eject Button puts a little more spunk into Jirachi, and is complimented by its various utility options including Wish, Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock, Healing Wish, Encore, Toxic, and other slots like Future Sight, Magic Room, and Gravity.

Fast Wish passing with Eject Button is especially useful because it gets your breaker in safely and keeps it healthy while cancelling your opponent's momentum; something the other Eject Button pivots can't do in tandem with Jirachi's handy resistances.

Admittedly, Jirachi can't always do what it wants to. There are loads of other road blocks it suffers as a whole, and it is typically not worth using. However, I feel it is a fringe pick that, while not always applicable, provides some use in OU and is slept on. What do you guys think? I would greatly appreciate input on how you feel about Eject Button as an option, not only for Jirachi, but others like Landorus, Toxapex, Corviknight, etc. as well.

eject button is nice, but i typically only like using it on something like toxapex who doesn't really need an item and doesn't always need to waste a turn healing, and then lets it be a knock off sponge for the rest of the game. for landorus, i think it can be good on a SR lando on ho. as it means if you get a free turn to set rocks on say an urshifu switchin, you can live any one hit i think and trigger the button and get your moment for the next breaker/sweeper that sets up on Urshifu.

on jirachi it sounds nice as then you can switch in on say a choice locked tapu lele psychic, trigger the button, then bring in your banded weavile safely.

and if for some reason you are running rachi with magnezone, it seems perfect to lure in some bulky steel types for an easy trap for magnezone.

 

[blooclipse]

But a change in subject:

Following very small discussion about Jirachi in the viability rankings, I wanted to look into what merits it had, what its possible sets were, and what relevance it has with recent trends. I stumbled across Eject Button, which I felt was an interesting pick.

Due to its all around bulk and Steel-Psychic-typing, Jirachi has a defensive profile for a few trending picks right now; namely Zapdos, Tapu Lele, and Clefable who have seen a rise in popularity in OU. Teams often overpreparing for threats like Weavile can't entirely compensate for Zapdos and Tapu Lele, or adjust for sets like CM Clefable, which is where Jirachi shines. However, its due-nothing nature and general lack of momentum often cease to justify it over other, more popular Steel-types picks in OU. Eject Button puts a little more spunk into Jirachi, and is complimented by its various utility options including Wish, Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock, Healing Wish, Encore, Toxic, and other slots like Future Sight, Magic Room, and Gravity.

Fast Wish passing with Eject Button is especially useful because it gets your breaker in safely and keeps it healthy while cancelling your opponent's momentum; something the other Eject Button pivots can't do in tandem with Jirachi's handy resistances.

Admittedly, Jirachi can't always do what it wants to. There are loads of other road blocks it suffers as a whole, and it is typically not worth using. However, I feel it is a fringe pick that, while not always applicable, provides some use in OU and is slept on. What do you guys think? I would greatly appreciate input on how you feel about Eject Button as an option, not only for Jirachi, but others like Landorus, Toxapex, Corviknight, etc. as well.

The fun eject button mons I've been playing round with are Pex, Jirachi, and amoonguss.
They can all sponge a hit and then let me have a free switch. I have actually been playing around a lot with eject button rachi, and it works as a good interim switchin to lele. Since Rachi can eat any hit easily, it can let me get a free switch into something that can threaten lele. I like to use it with SubCM blace, because it threatens out lele by bluffing scarf and can sub up on their switch and setup.

I also have been playing with ebutton Pex (on the specs eleki team that I'm trying to make) and It's honestly really good. Pex can really live any one unboosted hit, and then can switch into something. Mag is an extremely good partner because you can switch into pex on something like a corvi u-turn and then go into mag. (Remember that the button gets rid of their ability to switch after the u-turn)

I don't know about running button corvi, but button lando could be cool. If you run max speed, you can get up rocks and immediately switch. This could also technically work for A-Ninetales because while it would only have a 4 turn veil, you don't have to waste any time switching which could be nice on some niche ho veil teams.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

I like running eject button Lando on Weavile Mafia HO beat up teams but that's just mainly cause it maintains the breakneck pace of the playstyle. Eject button Pex also works because Pex is the mon that's most likely to absorb a knock off anyway and so it can keep momentum going since Pex sometimes has issues with that.

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

I think the Quick Claw/Quick Draw contraversy has run its course here but i want to as least give my 2 cents, as someone who advocates on abusing luck i have to agree that this strategy is by definition unfair. There are no reliable counters to this strategy and just boils down to "don't you dare move first, you only have 20% chance" most of the time. The item is no different from previously banned items like kings rock and bright powder which has no reliable reliable counters as well, as the item just adds an element of luck by chance with little to no downside.

Most items in pokemon has it drawbacks while some like leftovers or expert belt has no downside, but its upside is balanced like for example expert belt only adds damage to super effective hits, a relatively minor upside that can be used to lure an opponent into thinking it is choice locked, leftovers gives a set healing of 6.25% which also reveals your item making your opponent not have to guess/predict a potential shed shell, choice item, lum berry, etc. Quick Claw doesnt have much opportunity cost as the pokemon that might want to use it are almost always offensive pokemon that doesnt really have a need for an item unlike leftovers users which usually is needed for fatter mons to have longevity. other than Slowbro galar, some popular picks are Melmetal, Dhelmise, Kartana and Rhyperior due to their great bulk, great attacks, set-up move (except melm) and little reliance on items (This even dates back to gen 4 ou with swords dance rhyperior but thats besides the point). The point is, these pokemon can work without an item and if the user chose to go with quick claw there will be almost zero downside and just get a free 20% chance to move first with an insanely strong pokemon that has no counter play as you just have to hope the quick claw doesnt activate. which has similar arguments to why Bright Powder and Sand Veil was banned despite it being inconsistent theres almost no counter play and the best thing to do is to pray for luck to be on your side.

The argument made againts Quick Claw/Quick Draw that is often brought up is the fact that other abilities have the same effect of little to no opportunity cost like flame body or static. The thing is, there is a difference in the reward and also the circumstances of these two things happening. Flame Body/Static happens because of contact where a pokemon hits the Flame Body/Static pokemon with a contact move, this can be easily avoided by looking at the opponents team and see if they have a pokemon with that has a potential to have these abilities, in which then you can scout for it later in the game, if they do have it then try to minimize hitting those pokemon with contact move or making sure to hit them with special attacking moves only with luring and doubling, besides there are items like protective pads that can help with this. flame body rewards burn and halved damage while static rewards potential of free turn and halved speed. Quick Claw/Quick Draw however, cannot be scouted for, you cant see it coming unlike the abilities or other items, you just have to wait for it to activate as there are no indicantion of something possibly having it. The reward for this is huge, a free turn of being faster, if used on a mon like Dhelmise or kartana where theres no slow pokemon that can tank it, and needs to be revenge killed, it can be devastating.

Another argument often brought up is the validity of Paralysis. As you all may know, paralysis has a chance to make you not able to do anything on top of slowing you down, sometimes its up to luck whether you get a crucial hit using your paralyzed pokemon and some people have said this isnt competitive and should be put in the same bowl as luck items/abilites/moves. No, the opportunity cost to having paralysis is way more than the others, its a whole move slot which can be crucial for common spreaders like clefable, ferrothorn or blissey.

For something to be "Competitive" / "Balanced" It needs to have a RELIABLE and REASONABLE counter. Weavile for example has been known as the best and potentially strongest cleaner/breaker due to its spammable stabs, great typing, great speed and flexibility on teams, but it has many good counters in physical walls such as Buzzwole or Skarmory. Clefable has a lot of utility and can basically fit on any team style from stall to offense with so much sets from calm mind, to tricky barb, to meteor beam cosmic power and much much more. But it is almost always countered by wallbreakers due to its mediocre bulk for a wall. Spectrier on the other hand does not, its only few counters are dark and normal types due to them walling shadow ball, its only attack. The thing is spectrier eventually adapted with a calm mind bulky will-o-wisp set which walls blissey, hydreigon and mandibuzz, the three most common reliable counters. So now not only do we have an almost unwallable massive special attacker, we also have something that cant be walled because its previous walls become set-up fodder to the point of having to use unimpressive pokemon like exploud or obstagoon, carrying 3 dark and normal types, and using usually useless moves like shadow ball on blissey.

Quick Claw/Quick Draw is inhenrently luck based, there is no dodging that, the counterplay to it is Magic Room, Sucker Punch/Priority and ALWAYS expecting it if you see an offensive pokemon's item not showing. All of those are unreasonable to have in a team therefore Quick Claw/Quick Draw doesnt have reasonable or reliable counters Just like spectrier in the statement above.

So in my opinion, the council should definetly take a look at it or at least have a suspect test on it, as fun as they may be, it is 100% unbalanced and luck based.

 

[blooclipse]

I think the Quick Claw/Quick Draw contraversy has run its course here but i want to as least give my 2 cents, as someone who advocates on abusing luck i have to agree that this strategy is by definition unfair. There are no reliable counters to this strategy and just boils down to "don't you dare move first, you only have 20% chance" most of the time. The item is no different from previously banned items like kings rock and bright powder which has no reliable reliable counters as well, as the item just adds an element of luck by chance with little to no downside.

Most items in pokemon has it drawbacks while some like leftovers or expert belt has no downside, but its upside is balanced like for example expert belt only adds damage to super effective hits, a relatively minor upside that can be used to lure an opponent into thinking it is choice locked, leftovers gives a set healing of 6.25% which also reveals your item making your opponent not have to guess/predict a potential shed shell, choice item, lum berry, etc. Quick Claw doesnt have much opportunity cost as the pokemon that might want to use it are almost always offensive pokemon that doesnt really have a need for an item unlike leftovers users which usually is needed for fatter mons to have longevity, meaning. other than Slowbro galar, some popular picks are Melmetal, Dhelmise, Kartana and Rhyperior due to their great bulk, great attacks, set-up move (except melm) and little reliance on items (This even dates back to gen 4 ou with swords dance rhyperior but thats besides the point). The point is, these pokemon can work without an item and if the user chose to go with quick claw there will be almost zero downside and just get a free 20% chance to move first with an insanely strong pokemon that has no counter play as you just have to hope the quick claw doesnt activate. which has similar arguments to why Bright Powder and Sand Veil was banned despite it being inconsistent theres almost no counter play and the best thing to do is to pray for luck to be on your side.

The argument made againts Quick Claw/Quick Draw that is often brought up is the fact that other abilities have the same effect of little to no opportunity cost like flame body or static. The thing is, there is a difference in the reward and also the circumstances of these two things happening. Flame Body/Static happens because of contact where a pokemon hits the Flame Body/Static pokemon with a contact move, this can be easily avoided by looking at the opponents team and see if they have a pokemon with that has a potential to have these abilities, in which then you can scout for it later in the game, if they do have it then try to minimize hitting those pokemon with contact move or making sure to hit them with special attacking moves only with luring and doubling, besides there are items like protective pads that can help with this. flame body rewards burn and halved damage while static rewards potential of free turn and halved speed. Quick Claw/Quick Draw however, cannot be scouted for, you cant see it coming unlike the abilities or other items, you just have to wait for it to activate as there are no indicantion of something possibly having it. The reward for this is huge, a free turn of being faster, if used on a mon like Dhelmise or kartana where theres no slow pokemon that can tank it, and needs to be revenge killed, it can be devastating.

Another argument often brought up is the validity of Paralysis. As you all may know, paralysis has a chance to make you not able to do anything on top of slowing you down, sometimes its up to luck whether you get a crucial hit using your paralyzed pokemon and some people have said this isnt competitive and should be put in the same bowl as luck items/abilites/moves. No, the opportunity cost to having paralysis is way more than the others, its a whole move slot which can be crucial for common spreaders like clefable, ferrothorn or blissey.

For something to be "Competitive" / "Balanced" It needs to have a counter. Weavile for example has been known as the best and potentially strongest cleaner/breaker due to its spammable stabs, great typing, great speed and flexibility on teams, but it has many good counters in physical walls such as Buzzwole or Skarmory. Clefable has a lot of utility and can basically fit on any team style from stall to offense with so much sets from calm mind, to tricky barb, to meteor beam cosmic power and much much more. But it is almost always countered by wallbreakers due to its mediocre bulk for a wall.

Quick Claw/Quick Draw is inhenrently luck based, there is no dodging that, the counterplay to it is Magic Room, Sucker Punch/Priority and ALWAYS expecting it if you see an offensive pokemon's item not showing. All of those are unreasonable to have in a team therefore Quick Claw/Quick Draw doesnt have reasonable counters.

So in my opinion, the council should definetly take a look at it or at least have a suspect test on it, as fun as they may be, it is 100% unbalanced and luck based.

This is a lot of what our arguments are.
Its not broken, its just uncompetitive. There isn't any counterplay, you can just get immediately swept because you expected your melmetal counter to outspeed to OHKO, but no. It gets QC'd and flinched into oblivion.
This is honestly just a terrible item, and yeah its kind of funny but its just uncompetitive and inherently luck based. There is absolutely no counterplay, basically no downside, and no way to play against it and not have to deal with it.

 

[658Greninja]

Most items in pokemon has it drawbacks while some like leftovers or expert belt has no downside, but its upside is balanced like for example expert belt only adds damage to super effective hits, a relatively minor upside that can be used to lure an opponent into thinking it is choice locked, leftovers gives a set healing of 6.25% which also reveals your item making your opponent not have to guess/predict a potential shed shell, choice item, lum berry, etc. Quick Claw doesnt have much opportunity cost as the pokemon that might want to use it are almost always offensive pokemon that doesnt really have a need for an item unlike leftovers users which usually is needed for fatter mons to have longevity. other than Slowbro galar, some popular picks are Melmetal, Dhelmise, Kartana and Rhyperior due to their great bulk, great attacks, set-up move (except melm) and little reliance on items (This even dates back to gen 4 ou with swords dance rhyperior but thats besides the point). The point is, these pokemon can work without an item and if the user chose to go with quick claw there will be almost zero downside and just get a free 20% chance to move first with an insanely strong pokemon that has no counter play as you just have to hope the quick claw doesnt activate. which has similar arguments to why Bright Powder and Sand Veil was banned despite it being inconsistent theres almost no counter play and the best thing to do is to pray for luck to be on your side.

The argument made againts Quick Claw/Quick Draw that is often brought up is the fact that other abilities have the same effect of little to no opportunity cost like flame body or static. The thing is, there is a difference in the reward and also the circumstances of these two things happening. Flame Body/Static happens because of contact where a pokemon hits the Flame Body/Static pokemon with a contact move, this can be easily avoided by looking at the opponents team and see if they have a pokemon with that has a potential to have these abilities, in which then you can scout for it later in the game, if they do have it then try to minimize hitting those pokemon with contact move or making sure to hit them with special attacking moves only with luring and doubling, besides there are items like protective pads that can help with this. flame body rewards burn and halved damage while static rewards potential of free turn and halved speed. Quick Claw/Quick Draw however, cannot be scouted for, you cant see it coming unlike the abilities or other items, you just have to wait for it to activate as there are no indicantion of something possibly having it. The reward for this is huge, a free turn of being faster, if used on a mon like Dhelmise or kartana where theres no slow pokemon that can tank it, and needs to be revenge killed, it can be devastating.

Another argument often brought up is the validity of Paralysis. As you all may know, paralysis has a chance to make you not able to do anything on top of slowing you down, sometimes its up to luck whether you get a crucial hit using your paralyzed pokemon and some people have said this isnt competitive and should be put in the same bowl as luck items/abilites/moves. No, the opportunity cost to having paralysis is way more than the others, its a whole move slot which can be crucial for common spreaders like clefable, ferrothorn or blissey.

For something to be "Competitive" / "Balanced" It needs to have a RELIABLE and REASONABLE counter. Weavile for example has been known as the best and potentially strongest cleaner/breaker due to its spammable stabs, great typing, great speed and flexibility on teams, but it has many good counters in physical walls such as Buzzwole or Skarmory. Clefable has a lot of utility and can basically fit on any team style from stall to offense with so much sets from calm mind, to tricky barb, to meteor beam cosmic power and much much more. But it is almost always countered by wallbreakers due to its mediocre bulk for a wall. Spectrier on the other hand does not, its only few counters are dark and normal types due to them walling shadow ball, its only attack. The thing is spectrier eventually adapted with a calm mind bulky will-o-wisp set which walls blissey, hydreigon and mandibuzz, the three most common reliable counters. So now not only do we have an almost unwallable massive special attacker, we also have something that cant be walled because its previous walls become set-up fodder to the point of having to use unimpressive pokemon like exploud or obstagoon, carrying 3 dark and normal types, and using usually useless moves like shadow ball on blissey.

Quick Claw/Quick Draw is inhenrently luck based, there is no dodging that, the counterplay to it is Magic Room, Sucker Punch/Priority and ALWAYS expecting it if you see an offensive pokemon's item not showing. All of those are unreasonable to have in a team therefore Quick Claw/Quick Draw doesnt have reasonable or reliable counters Just like spectrier in the statement above.

So in my opinion, the council should definetly take a look at it or at least have a suspect test on it, as fun as they may be, it is 100% unbalanced and luck based.

I think this is the best explanation to the Quick Claw/Quick Claw thing. You hit it right out of the bag.

Also, I didn’t know Dhel and Rhyperior had a niche with Quick Claw, found that to be interesting.

Just a quick note, Skarm and Buzz are not “counters”…even with max dfse.

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 174-210 (52 - 62.8%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Beat Up vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 138-163 (41.3 - 48.8%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 174-210 (41.6 - 50.2%) -- approx. 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Though I will be fair and hear out those who are anti-ban for Weav. Band can be given limited switch-ins by getting up rocks early. While it doesn’t have counters, it does have checks in the form of Ferro, Tran, Buzz, Corv, Clef, Fini, and Urshifu which are great/independent outside of checking it. While Weav does have counterplay, the only counterplay for Quick Claw is to Knock it when given the chance which depending on the user, can be difficult. To conclude this, Weav and Quick Claw should be looked into in the near future.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

With Weavile's influence on teambuilding providing a lot of free real estate for the special attacking threats of the tier, something interesting I've started to think about is what everyone thinks the best scarfer (not just special ofc) is right now. Scarftana will probably always be relevant but can feel pretty dependent on Knock for a good while of a game's span and doesn't always love being a physical attacker honestly. Scarf Lele meanwhile eats offense for breakfast lunch and dinner and can be tough to stop from cleaning up entire teams but i guess focus miss+ being one of the "slower" (intentionally in quotes fwiw) scarfers is a little irksome? I feel like for a while I saw a lot of people pretty down on scarfers but especially nowadays I've found that fat teams just don't really give me what I'm looking for in terms of counterplay for big threats tbh (and honorable mention to scarfcephalon but I just think specs is like way more fun lol)

 

[blooclipse]

With Weavile's influence on teambuilding providing a lot of free real estate for the special attacking threats of the tier, something interesting I've started to think about is what everyone thinks the best scarfer (not just special ofc) is right now. Scarftana will probably always be relevant but can feel pretty dependent on Knock for a good while of a game's span and doesn't always love being a physical attacker honestly. Scarf Lele meanwhile eats offense for breakfast lunch and dinner and can be tough to stop from cleaning up entire teams but i guess focus miss+ being one of the "slower" (intentionally in quotes fwiw) scarfers is a little irksome? I feel like for a while I saw a lot of people pretty down on scarfers but especially nowadays I've found that fat teams just don't really give me what I'm looking for in terms of counterplay for big threats tbh (and honorable mention to scarfcephalon but I just think specs is like way more fun lol)

personally i use scarftana a bit too much, but scarf lele has insane cleaning potential. Another one of my favorites has got to be lando, because scarf lando is honestly underrated in a defensive lando metagame.

 

[Snapteryx]

personally i use scarftana a bit too much, but scarf lele has insane cleaning potential. Another one of my favorites has got to be lando, because scarf lando is honestly underrated in a defensive lando metagame.

Personally, I've always thought scarf lando was decent but outclassed. Maybe it's because of it's speed? I've never liked having a scarf user slower than scarfed Lele but maybe that's just my personal preference. For an offensive lando set I've been having a lot of fun with double dance lando. It makes good use of it's 145 base attack and rock polish allows it to outspeed most forms of speed control. Also it's naturally good defensive typing along with intimidate make it easier to set up.
On the topic of scarf users tho, I'll forever be loyal to blacephalon.

 

[Dirkhann]

Personally, I've always thought scarf lando was decent but outclassed. Maybe it's because of it's speed? I've never liked having a scarf user slower than scarfed Lele but maybe that's just my personal preference. For an offensive lando set I've been having a lot of fun with double dance lando. It makes good use of it's 145 base attack and rock polish allows it to outspeed most forms of speed control. Also it's naturally good defensive typing along with intimidate make it easier to set up.
On the topic of scarf users tho, I'll forever be loyal to blacephalon.

I wouldn't say Scarf Lando is outclassed due to having U-turn unlike Chomper. I think it's mostly because running defensive lando eases teambuilding so much, the opportunity cost of not using it is kinda high. Making the majority of players lean for a defensive variant

 

[Smashburn]

Choice-locked Landorus isn't amazing in general, even with the advantages that Scarf and Band offer it. Its base 145 atk stat is something to behold, but it can only do so much with middling speed for a tier that is so offensively inclined, in addition to being generally easy to prepare for due to its ubiquity. Because these sets are few and far in between they have some surprise factor, but their consistency only goes so far. On its choice-locked sets it struggles with 4MSS, as it attempts to not drain momentum by having coverage that hits all important targets, while slotting utility onto itself it needed. Being so prediction and coverage reliant means it can quickly drain momentum, and in the turns where it is successful (at times not), it is then further exploitable because your opponent can confirm your set and that you are choice-locked. This gives Landorus a bit of one-turn-wonder syndrome, and is hard to justify using in most cases over the other offensive or defensive sets that aren't choice-locked.

 

[blooclipse]

Personally, I've always thought scarf lando was decent but outclassed. Maybe it's because of it's speed? I've never liked having a scarf user slower than scarfed Lele but maybe that's just my personal preference. For an offensive lando set I've been having a lot of fun with double dance lando. It makes good use of it's 145 base attack and rock polish allows it to outspeed most forms of speed control. Also it's naturally good defensive typing along with intimidate make it easier to set up.
On the topic of scarf users tho, I'll forever be loyal to blacephalon.

Yeah, being slower than scarf lele isn't exactly fun. What makes it good is definitely the surprise factor, though. I run SR on my scarf lando, so I can set up rocks early and bluff defensive, but then surprise them with a scarf lando.
Double Dance Lando seems cool, I might try that out. Defensive investment to avoid a 2HKO from Pult shadow ball would be a good benchmark, plus enough to not die to sd weavile ice shard.