Blacephalon is by far my favorite scarfer. Monster stat, great speed tier, strong move selection. It feels a lot easy to create conditions favorable for Blace to shadow ball sweep, where as it feels more difficult to create those same conditions for scarf Kart based on its worse coverage options.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Landorus-T
Heatran
Weavile
Dragapult
Ferrothorn
Tornadus-T
Slowbro
Tapu Koko
Garchomp
Kartana
Heatran
Weavile
Dragapult
Ferrothorn
Tornadus-T
Slowbro
Tapu Koko
Garchomp
Kartana
I think Scarf Kartana is a little overrated sometimes, but moreso cause it's just in a bit of an awkward spot right now with physically defensive mons being kind of everywhere. It's still very good but finding pathways for it to clean can be a bit annoying because a lot more things just hard stop it when it's scarfed. What I think will always set it apart though (likely regardless of meta trends) is it being the fastest of any good scarfers in OU and it also having good matchups against them if such a thing happens.
I'd also like to take a second to talk about Dragapult. I feel like this mon is in kind of an interesting transitionary period in terms of viability and its best set. Specs isn't like, bad but it's kind of a far cry from what it used to be and I think DD is just better than it even though it can't come out very early and phantom force is dangerous but kind of awkward to use. Having to rely on spdef drops to pressure checks is famously unreliable and its power is good but not necessarily remarkable (and draco meteor is really exploitable)
TLDR: I don't always understand the hype around Dragapult and Kartana but they're very interesting mons
What are your thoughts on specs dragapult? Do you think it's time as a metagame staple is beginning to fall off or is there still more to be explored with it?
I'd also like to take a second to talk about Dragapult. I feel like this mon is in kind of an interesting transitionary period in terms of viability and its best set. Specs isn't like, bad but it's kind of a far cry from what it used to be and I think DD is just better than it even though it can't come out very early and phantom force is dangerous but kind of awkward to use. Having to rely on spdef drops to pressure checks is famously unreliable and its power is good but not necessarily remarkable (and draco meteor is really exploitable)
TLDR: I don't always understand the hype around Dragapult and Kartana but they're very interesting mons
What are your thoughts on specs dragapult? Do you think it's time as a metagame staple is beginning to fall off or is there still more to be explored with it?
blacephalon? haven’t seen him used at all and honestly looking at his stats, idk why. a special attack stat higher than kyogre and a very respectable speed tier make for a terrifying wallbreaker with choice specs and a very effective late-game cleaner with choice scarf. his bulk (or lack thereof) leaves a lot to be desired, and being a ghost type slower than dragapult is never a good thing. however, blacephalon is much stronger than pult and poses an immediate threat with his better offenses, which gives him a niche over dragapult as a special wallbreaker. and his lack of bulk can be mitgated by pairing him with slow pivots, such as the slow twins, corviknight and blissey to get him in safely. and when blacephalon gets in, he can be devastating for most teams to face.ima actually go all in on a top 10 rather than a top 5 this time
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not quite top 10 material imo, but blacephalon is definitely top 15/20, and a heavily underrated threat in the metagame
I think Specs pult is outclassed by Lele and Blaceph. Both of them can chunk teams so much harder than Pult does, and I'm not sure having uturn is enough to justify it being better than either, especially when you have to commit to clicking uturn due to being choiced instead of hitting a more powerful move. Of the 4 common sets (specs, ddance, band, special pivot) the Specs set is being increasingly prepared for by teams wising up to Ghost spam. Overall the main merits keeping Dragapult rated higher than Blaceph are access to uturn, dragon typing resistances, and a busted speed tier. Outside of that I'm usually a little more concerned seeing Blace at team preview than Pult. Most teams only usually have one ghost resist at best, and outside of rain/sun 1-2 fire checks, making it really threatening anytime you can get Blace in.
100% agreed, blacephalon isn’t a common sight to see but it’s never a good one, especially without ttar or blissey
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Even then it has the option if choiced to trick and perma cripple Blissey, and without Pursuit this gen, it's free to swap out after Ttar eats a shadow ball. You could even trick your specs onto Tyranitar and ruin its day. Since both of them are usually insta switches into Blace, it eases a lot of the prediction when clicking that button. CM+Sub/Taunt uses Blissey as set up fodder too, so Blace definitely can gameplan to minimize the impact of some of its more common counters.
I still feel like specs Dragapult still puts tremendous pressure and teams being more prepared is a symptom of how dominant it was last year. Even so pults biggest checks like blissey and mandibuzz have fallen off. Weavile isn't an ideal shadowball switchin since you could just get u-turned on, same with Ttar.
And then you can't be certain if the dragapult you're facing is a dd version at times just from team preview and a number of things that can beat specs pult can lose to that.
Blacephalon on the other hand is weak to rocks and if you trick your scarf away to blissey or are a calm mind variant then it can't continue being speed control while pult just u turns on both ttar and blissey and keeps the progress moving along.
And then you can't be certain if the dragapult you're facing is a dd version at times just from team preview and a number of things that can beat specs pult can lose to that.
Blacephalon on the other hand is weak to rocks and if you trick your scarf away to blissey or are a calm mind variant then it can't continue being speed control while pult just u turns on both ttar and blissey and keeps the progress moving along.
This is not true at all. I consider Lele a broken Mon and one that should be banned from OU, but its not even close to outclassing Pult as Specs user. Pult outspeeds almost the whole Meta and this is also true with MODEST (which I consider better, since it only loses to Koko and ties to Weavile) nature.
Unlike Lele, Pult can do decent damage to Steels with STAB Moves (instead of relying on Focus Miss) and also has a lot of coverage to choose from if it needs it: Hydro does good damage to Tran, Lando and Tar, Fire Moves destroy the non-Tran Steels, Thunder(Bolt) damaged Bulky waters and also Corvi, Hex abusses Status SPAM.
Blacephalon is faster than Lele but can,t come into anything, while outside Trick being fully walled by Tar and better checked by Sdef Pex (which Pult can damage with electric Moves). Unlike Blace, Pult outspeeds Kartana and Tornadus-T, so vs offensive Meta Specs Pult fares way better than both Lele and Blace.
Offense (in my opinion) is dominating, so having a Mon that can outspeed almost everything while doing decent damage to bulky teams too is certainly a big plus Pult has over Lele (who has to choose between breaking Bulky teams which it does amazingly and outspeeding offensive ones with Scarf) and Blace (same, though this one is stronger and faster than Lele, but in exchange match-up fishier too).
Also, U-Turn, while a big advantage, isn,t even 100% needed, Blissey is B Rank and not very common. This is the Specs Pult set that I think people should be using:
Spyro (Dragapult) (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Shadow Ball
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower / Thunderbolt / Hydro Pump
As I already said, Koko and Weavile are the only difference between Modest and Timid. Even with Timid those are not optimal match-ups since the first wins the 1vs1 and the second can abuse Pult with SD + Ice Shard if its locked in Shadow Ball (also, its sometimes Adamant, which Modest Pult does outspeed). Koko and Weavile aren,t hard to check with other Mons even in offensive teams, so you definetely can afford not caring for them with Pult. Pult is a breaker and an offense killer at the same time, so I think that U-Turn is not that needed and prefer to use coverage and Hex (with Status support of course) instead for more damage vs both offensive and bulky (Blissey-less) teams.
Teams in which this set has worked well:
https://pokepast.es/d72fab336da4a328 < Not a very good team, but Pult does abuse Tspikes (which unlike when used by Pex, can,t be absorbed easily by other Pex) and Discharge paras Pinchurchin offers.
https://pokepast.es/3ee474656d2ba9f9 < Actual decent team. Defensive Mons with lots of Status. Pult works as Revenge Killer and also can break-Blissey-less teams after the teammates hit them with Status moves. If a team has Blissey, more often than not, it ends up being weak to the SD + Rest Lando, so thats another not very obvious sinergy Pult has. Also, this Lando set makes Koko almost useless, so Modest is pretty justifieble. Koko itself checks Weavile well enough.
https://pokepast.es/ab3d3ff9f40c509e < This one is a little weak to Weavile, but again, Pult abusses lots of Status. Koko is not an issue with Lando, Shiinotic and Melmetal checking it well.
Landorus-Therian
Heatran
Weavile
Ferrothorn
Slowbro
Dragapult
Tornadus-Therian
Kartana
Tapu Lele
Garchomp.
Honorable mentions: Clefable, Tapu Koko
Heatran
Weavile
Ferrothorn
Slowbro
Dragapult
Tornadus-Therian
Kartana
Tapu Lele
Garchomp.
Honorable mentions: Clefable, Tapu Koko
I want to know why you think lele should be banned. Imo its just a good, hard to switch into breaker, nothing banworthy. Sure its specs set is nigh impossible to switch into, but so is volcanion's and even kyurem's was(and kyu was not banned for that set). I don't use specs all that much, preferring the speed control scarf brings to the table.
one thing i'd point out though is that while volcanion is lacking in switchins it is still wallable by things like blissey and slowking, and the fringe storm drain gastrodon , and even slowbro can be an interim switchin if you are in a pinch. it's only in rain where it's basically nigh unwallable aside from fringe picks like the aformentioned gastrodon and set and things like heliolisk, or in sun where its fire stab can be bonkers save for a few switchins. So that makes volcanion trade splashability for the ability to bypass most of its normal checks.
On the other hand lele's peak wallbreaking potential however fits much easier on teams anand lacks switchins bar more fringe options like jirachi/shedninja/aegislash and on its standard set it can still fit coverage to bypass it's checks pretty easily whereas volcanion needs to use something wacky like fire spin+ body press if it wants to beat blissey.
Lele has to run psyshock, moonblast, and then it has some flexibility to run psychic/future sight/focus miss and lastly thunderbolt/focus miss/shadow ball
and sometimes it's also not a simple task to discern what kind of lele you are facing since twisted spoon is a thing, which can easily bluff specs or scarf
plus obviously, it has a better speed tier and isn't as weak to hazards.
These advantages are already evident which is why lele is the overall better mon.
however, that said lele doesn't have the greatest bulk out there particularly on the physical side, does suffer from some 4mss and has to pick its demons when you're running any of it's sets, and it's most common sets are prediction reliant as well to a degree at least until you weaken or remove the enemy steel type and/or dark type,
it still also doesn't have the greatest speed tier, and notably loses to other common scarfers 1v1.
so it's far from banworthy but is a top ten threat imo.
Lele is just (along with Tran) the hardest breaker to defensively check. The metagame is already offensive enough without taking those 2 into account, but they just make bulky and defensive teams very limited in options they can choose to play with and kinda force to play some kind of offense in order to succeed in OU. Specs Lele in particular has these reliable checks:
-Sdef Scizor
-Jirachi
-Victini
-Slowking (weak to Tbolt)
-Galar Slowking (weak to Psyshock and also needs AV)
-Sdef Corvi (weak to Tbolt).
-Sdef Heatran (weak to Focus Blast)
-Melmetal (weak to Focus Blast again)
-Sdef Celesteela (suboptimal set, though viable)
-AV Reuniclus (not very good)
-Bronzong/Metagross/Escavalier (generally bad)
-Registeel (same, though this is apparently ranked now, weak to Focus Blast)
-Shedinja (when it was more common I did run a Shadow Ball Lele, so if it becomes common again, people can do it. Shedinja is terrible Mon when people account for its existance).
Yes,the Mon has it shortcommings (low bulk, prediction reliance, not fast enough and not the best defensive typing) and the meta can adapt to Lele and is already doing so. But Meta also could and did adapt to Urshifu, Kyurem, Zygarde, Spectrier and Pheromosa, despite that all of those got (unfairly in my opinion) banned, since counterplay was deemed not enough (or not viable enough in some cases).
To sum it up, I think the OU Meta is way too offensive in an unhealthy way, so something needs to go in order to "fix"/change that (which might or might not solve/make it better). Since Lele and Heatran are the most restricting and hardest to check Mons, those 2 would be the main candidates for me to go. This is my personal opinion, you can agree with it or not.
-Sdef Scizor
-Jirachi
-Victini
-Slowking (weak to Tbolt)
-Galar Slowking (weak to Psyshock and also needs AV)
-Sdef Corvi (weak to Tbolt).
-Sdef Heatran (weak to Focus Blast)
-Melmetal (weak to Focus Blast again)
-Sdef Celesteela (suboptimal set, though viable)
-AV Reuniclus (not very good)
-Bronzong/Metagross/Escavalier (generally bad)
-Registeel (same, though this is apparently ranked now, weak to Focus Blast)
-Shedinja (when it was more common I did run a Shadow Ball Lele, so if it becomes common again, people can do it. Shedinja is terrible Mon when people account for its existance).
Yes,the Mon has it shortcommings (low bulk, prediction reliance, not fast enough and not the best defensive typing) and the meta can adapt to Lele and is already doing so. But Meta also could and did adapt to Urshifu, Kyurem, Zygarde, Spectrier and Pheromosa, despite that all of those got (unfairly in my opinion) banned, since counterplay was deemed not enough (or not viable enough in some cases).
To sum it up, I think the OU Meta is way too offensive in an unhealthy way, so something needs to go in order to "fix"/change that (which might or might not solve/make it better). Since Lele and Heatran are the most restricting and hardest to check Mons, those 2 would be the main candidates for me to go. This is my personal opinion, you can agree with it or not.
Now I want to know how you think shifu, zygarde pheramosa, and spectrier we're all unfairly banned? These mons were all way more constricting than lele is. Shifu forced bulky fairies on every team just to be able to switch into it's attacks, ones that couldn't be scouted out with protect mind you. Pheramosa was just too fast and strong on both sides, lending to it's powerful physical and special sets. Zygarde could be a worse kyurem with sub glare dd sets that only needed one move in thousand arrows to hit every thing. Kyu basically copied Zygarde with sub dd roost sets that could legit just pp stall it's checks, outside of melm who had limited DIB pp. Finally spectrier basically just used another sub 1 attack set, except this time with sub wisp hex/dark pulse cm/np set. This made the only truly safe switchins to spectrier sball blissey and obstagoon.
It's very interesting to see the majority of people, including top players like Finch, put Heatran in their top 2.
Some of you may remember that I made some posts a year ago predicting the Heatran will be a problem once the very big threats were banned and the meta was stabilized. Kyurem was definitely problematic, but it was one heatran check gone.
By far and away the most broken mon is Heatran. I don't think the council will suspect Landorus-T (they might), maybe Weavile or Dragapult, but I really hope Heatran is the one destined to be suspected. Most of the arguments against Heatran suspect or ban is that the meta would be very unstable (stall, clef, volc) so maybe we could get a non-heatran ladder for the suspect. Anyways, that's for the future. I'm glad people are aware of the problem that is Heatran.
As for me:
1.
- get it out. This thing has never been healthy, it's just been sleeping under our noses.2.
- triple axel is broken3.
- too good4.
- I haven't played gen 8 OU in like 8 months, I come back and all of a sudden Zapdos is top 5. At least imo. He's incredibly hard to switch into. Plus, when my opponent clicks Hurricane they always hit, and they always confuse. Mine never hit pepehands.5.
- he will always be top 5 / top 7, it's just ferrothorn things.6.
- personally think he's strong, but he's not really top 3 imo. His sets are very one-dimensional. SpD (or Phys Def) U-turn + knock or u-turn. It's strong, but he's not nearly as effectual as he was in, say, Gen 7 for example.7.
- I've always been a big fan of Torn-t. His utility is through the roof, and NP sets are incredibly strong. Taunt is a sleeper, and there are still situations where Rocky Helmet or Assault Vest Torn are quite vuable. I would have him top 5 but the abundance of static zapdos is really annoying. Even the HDB Knock Off set risks para.8.
- goat mon9.
- kart will always be top 1010.
- I think this mon is slowly becoming more and more influential on the meta. His set has evolved quite considerably. Teleport/Toxic or max speed timid to outrun Heatran makes the mon have much more utility than being "only useful vs. ferrothorn/corv".Honorable mentions:
/ 
On a side note, as someone who much more often plays older OU metas, I'm always quite surprised by how the meta has developed here. I mean SpD Lando-T and PhysDef Heatran would be considered throwing in older gens. I think it's exciting.
I sometimes feel like I'm in the twilight zone because I've never found Heatran to be a banworthy problem. Its weaknesses aren't very hard to fit on a team and its earlygame progress forcing is highly effective but has become much less flavor of the month and more of a genuine expectation with the mon. I think balloon trans trying to outpace other balloon trans is quite silly but I just don't feel like the meta's current issues are really the fault of Heatran's influence unless I'm just blind. I think it brings a lot of great things to the tier too. Obviously opinions will be opinions but unless something drastic happened to turn Tran into just an overly restrictive monster in my eyes I would actually be pretty bummed if it got banned since I don't really see it as banworthy or unhealthy as something like W**v*l
Would anyone be willing to explain what specifically makes Heatran so banworthy in their eyes? I don't think "potentially best mon in the meta" is a very good argument
Would anyone be willing to explain what specifically makes Heatran so banworthy in their eyes? I don't think "potentially best mon in the meta" is a very good argument
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Urshifu: Thing with this was that it appeared in DLC1. DLC1 was an amazing Meta, the best one in years. And the only bad thing (after Magearna and Cinderace were gone) there was Urshifu, who I wanted banned during the entire Meta, but it never was. Had it been banned, I wouldn,t be pushing for an unban in DLC2, just like I think Melmetal, Magearna and Cinderace should have been left banned in DLC2 and not given a second chance for not adding anything positive.
But somehow (probably due to bad tiering decisions), it avoided Ban during the entire DLC1. DLC2 arrived and with it the Meta became more offensive and more able to handle Urshifu. As bulky checks, Buzzwole, Koko and Fini appeared too. For me, after having to adapt during the whole DLC1 Meta to this monster, this new counterplay was more than enough for it to be balanced. Still, out of the 5 Mons, this one is the one I consider the closest to be actually broken.
Pheromosa: It's (for the most part, some niche sets are exceptions) checked by the best OU Wall, aka Toxapex. Clefable, Buzzwole, Volcarona, Alola Marowak (very common at the start of DLC2), Moltres (same), Pelipper, Galarian Weezing, Cofagrigus, etc. it has many checks in my opinion, more than enough. Offensively its outsped and OHKOd by Scarfers and handled by priority too. It also makes offensive teams worse (though this is just personal preference, not an actual argument to keep it).
Zygarde: Except the Band set its not immediatly threatening (except Band, which was far from the best set and played a very small role in the Ban). Yes, paralysis sucks and having perfect coverage with just one Move also sucks, but it was not sweeping teams from turn 1, it needed work. Buzzwole checks this well, slow pivots + Ice Mons (Kyurem, Weavile, Hail, Cloyster) check this well, Pheromosa (with Band Triple Axel) also did, Fini has no recovery but doesn,t care for status, Shedinja is only hit by Toxic, Clef with Magic Guard is a good check that needs more than one para to be broken, Unaware Clef usually has Heal Bell regardless of Zygarde, so it almost completely walls too, Slowbro has Ice Beam + Regenerator, Hippo could use Whirlwind, again slow pivot + Specs Pult worked. Of course, many of the counterplay required a slow pivot + fast Mon that OHKOd Zygarde, but guess what, slow pivots are Lando, Slowbro, Pelipper and Scizor, they are good Mons regardless of Zygarde. Meanwhile, Ice type and Ice Moves are having the best Gen in a long time.This Mon was not given enough time for the community to see that it was balanced and its a shame, with it in the Meta, Heatran has an opportunity cost different from Rain, meaning it would not have been as oppresing as it is right now.
Kyurem: The Main argument for this one as far as I know was that it had a lot of chances to use strong Freeze Dries during the battle, having many opportunities to Freeze. Not that I disagree with this, but same argument could be used for Bulky (and some offensive) Waters that use Scald since Gen 5 and burn literally everything in the long Run. I know, burn is worse than freeze, but the chance is also bigger.
Spectrier: Sorry, but if 2 out of 18 types make this Mon almost useless, I can,t consider it broken. Even if most Mons of those types are bad. Dracovish had something similar, but in his case there weren,t 2 types, there were just some water immune Mons, which are far fewer. Also, again, slow pivot (which could be Mandibuzz, Blissey and even Porygon-2) + Specs Pult solve Spectrier. Just like every team has Ground, Steel and Water Mons, every team could have either Normal or Dark and I don,t see any problems with this kind of adaptation.
My Main problem is that every single Gen since Gen 6 (and with a strech, could be said since Gen 5) ends with this type of team as the "optimal boring" structure:
-Bulky ground that pivots (Lando or Gliscor).
-Bulky Water that sometimes pivots (Rotom-W, Pex, Slowtwins, Gastro?)
-Steel 1, usually Heatran.
-Steel 2 (Ferro, Kartana, Mega Scizor, Mega Metagross in ORAS Magearna in SM, Melmetal).
-Strong breaker (Lele, Kartana again, Chomp, several Megas, this slot has slightly more options) or some CM Sweeper (Clef, Fini and Mega Latias in previous Gens).
-Fast Mon (Scarfer, Ass Ninja, Mega Zam, Torn, Pult, Koko and since recently Weavile).
Maybe if the 5 above had not been banned, nothing would have changed, but in my opinion they challenged these "optimal boring" teams and made the Meta different and more enjoyable. Right now, Gen 8 looks to be ending the exact same way in which Gen 6 and 7 did. So, the changes I tend to seek are either return some Mon that gave these structured teams problems (while not being in my opinion broken, so I don,t want for example Dracovish unbanned) or Ban some key component of the structure (Lele and Heatran, since I know Lando is never ever getting banned unless he gets Dragon Ascent or something). This is also the Main reason I liked DLC1 Meta so much, it was very different from every previous OU Meta and very versatile in a good and fun way.
But somehow (probably due to bad tiering decisions), it avoided Ban during the entire DLC1. DLC2 arrived and with it the Meta became more offensive and more able to handle Urshifu. As bulky checks, Buzzwole, Koko and Fini appeared too. For me, after having to adapt during the whole DLC1 Meta to this monster, this new counterplay was more than enough for it to be balanced. Still, out of the 5 Mons, this one is the one I consider the closest to be actually broken.
Pheromosa: It's (for the most part, some niche sets are exceptions) checked by the best OU Wall, aka Toxapex. Clefable, Buzzwole, Volcarona, Alola Marowak (very common at the start of DLC2), Moltres (same), Pelipper, Galarian Weezing, Cofagrigus, etc. it has many checks in my opinion, more than enough. Offensively its outsped and OHKOd by Scarfers and handled by priority too. It also makes offensive teams worse (though this is just personal preference, not an actual argument to keep it).
Zygarde: Except the Band set its not immediatly threatening (except Band, which was far from the best set and played a very small role in the Ban). Yes, paralysis sucks and having perfect coverage with just one Move also sucks, but it was not sweeping teams from turn 1, it needed work. Buzzwole checks this well, slow pivots + Ice Mons (Kyurem, Weavile, Hail, Cloyster) check this well, Pheromosa (with Band Triple Axel) also did, Fini has no recovery but doesn,t care for status, Shedinja is only hit by Toxic, Clef with Magic Guard is a good check that needs more than one para to be broken, Unaware Clef usually has Heal Bell regardless of Zygarde, so it almost completely walls too, Slowbro has Ice Beam + Regenerator, Hippo could use Whirlwind, again slow pivot + Specs Pult worked. Of course, many of the counterplay required a slow pivot + fast Mon that OHKOd Zygarde, but guess what, slow pivots are Lando, Slowbro, Pelipper and Scizor, they are good Mons regardless of Zygarde. Meanwhile, Ice type and Ice Moves are having the best Gen in a long time.This Mon was not given enough time for the community to see that it was balanced and its a shame, with it in the Meta, Heatran has an opportunity cost different from Rain, meaning it would not have been as oppresing as it is right now.
Kyurem: The Main argument for this one as far as I know was that it had a lot of chances to use strong Freeze Dries during the battle, having many opportunities to Freeze. Not that I disagree with this, but same argument could be used for Bulky (and some offensive) Waters that use Scald since Gen 5 and burn literally everything in the long Run. I know, burn is worse than freeze, but the chance is also bigger.
Spectrier: Sorry, but if 2 out of 18 types make this Mon almost useless, I can,t consider it broken. Even if most Mons of those types are bad. Dracovish had something similar, but in his case there weren,t 2 types, there were just some water immune Mons, which are far fewer. Also, again, slow pivot (which could be Mandibuzz, Blissey and even Porygon-2) + Specs Pult solve Spectrier. Just like every team has Ground, Steel and Water Mons, every team could have either Normal or Dark and I don,t see any problems with this kind of adaptation.
My Main problem is that every single Gen since Gen 6 (and with a strech, could be said since Gen 5) ends with this type of team as the "optimal boring" structure:
-Bulky ground that pivots (Lando or Gliscor).
-Bulky Water that sometimes pivots (Rotom-W, Pex, Slowtwins, Gastro?)
-Steel 1, usually Heatran.
-Steel 2 (Ferro, Kartana, Mega Scizor, Mega Metagross in ORAS Magearna in SM, Melmetal).
-Strong breaker (Lele, Kartana again, Chomp, several Megas, this slot has slightly more options) or some CM Sweeper (Clef, Fini and Mega Latias in previous Gens).
-Fast Mon (Scarfer, Ass Ninja, Mega Zam, Torn, Pult, Koko and since recently Weavile).
Maybe if the 5 above had not been banned, nothing would have changed, but in my opinion they challenged these "optimal boring" teams and made the Meta different and more enjoyable. Right now, Gen 8 looks to be ending the exact same way in which Gen 6 and 7 did. So, the changes I tend to seek are either return some Mon that gave these structured teams problems (while not being in my opinion broken, so I don,t want for example Dracovish unbanned) or Ban some key component of the structure (Lele and Heatran, since I know Lando is never ever getting banned unless he gets Dragon Ascent or something). This is also the Main reason I liked DLC1 Meta so much, it was very different from every previous OU Meta and very versatile in a good and fun way.
I want to ask just how is tran broken? Sure it's great rn in the meta, but how does that make it broken?It's very interesting to see the majority of people, including top players like Finch, put Heatran in their top 2.
Some of you may remember that I made some posts a year ago predicting the Heatran will be a problem once the very big threats were banned and the meta was stabilized. Kyurem was definitely problematic, but it was one heatran check gone.
By far and away the most broken mon is Heatran. I don't think the council will suspect Landorus-T (they might), maybe Weavile or Dragapult, but I really hope Heatran is the one destined to be suspected. Most of the arguments against Heatran suspect or ban is that the meta would be very unstable (stall, clef, volc) so maybe we could get a non-heatran ladder for the suspect. Anyways, that's for the future. I'm glad people are aware of the problem that is Heatran.
As for me:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Honorable mentions:
On a side note, as someone who much more often plays older OU metas, I'm always quite surprised by how the meta has developed here. I mean SpD Lando-T and PhysDef Heatran would be considered throwing in older gens. I think it's exciting.
While I respect you a lot as a player when it comes to games (also I think people in this forum are sometimes really hard on you just for having unpopular opinions), I think I just fundamentally disagree with your reasoning. I really like gen 8 OU even if a lot of its best structures are carried over from gen 6-8 because I don't think allowing mons like minmaxed unpredictable mini Quiza Mosa or Urshifu which was about the biggest case for "pivoting has gotten out of hand" just for trying to shake up the meta is a very good thing. I agree with you that teams are overly pressured into running aggressive offense teams right now and Tran has always been one of the biggest barriers for Fat, but I don't see much arguments for Lele and Tran warping teambuilding to an unhealthy degree or being unreasonably difficult to check
I'm also speaking as someone who is is fine with XY OU and generally dislikes USUM and BW OU but I don't even necessarily think it's just because of their "checklist meta" dispositions but moreso how MU fishy and bloated (in gen 7's case) they feel
With respect to you as a player (and I do, especially how creative your teambuilding is), I don't think we should look at a meta this way. Had none of these threats been banned, the meta would have ended up far staler and unhealthy than anything we might have atm. It wouldn't be able to develop in a proper way. We'll just end up with different "optimal" teams that are the only way to handle those threats.
This though I really can't agree with. The number of viable normals in OU was basically just Blissey. Porygon 2 is a TR exclusive Mon (which is an inconsistent playstyle), and Blissey was unable to touch Spectrier's sub sets who would use it as set up fodder. For darks it was pretty much Mandibuzz and Ttar. Both hated the subwisp sets Spectrier ran. And specs Pult iirc struggled to beat subCM sets if it got a CM up prior.
i definitely agree with the sentiment of heatran being top 2, that mf is fucking BROKEN. the fact that nothing can safely switch into it without getting crippled in one way or another goes to show how ridiculous heatran is. although i’m interested to hear why it should be suspected, not that i actually disagree, just curious to hear as to why you think that tran should be banned/suspected
I'll throw my two cents in real quick:
You can't really say that something is broken because not much can swap in without getting crippled. That applies to A LOT of things. Heatran, Weavile, Lele, Blacephalon and Dragapult, Melmetal, Kartana, Zapdos, Barraskewda in Rain being big offensive ones, but defensively you got Ferrothorn with Leech Seed, Lando-T with Toxic/Knock, Mew with an abundance of things, Melmetal AGAIN with Thunder Wave AND Toxic, Chomp with Toxic, hell even Rotom-Heat uses Will-O-Wisp, that cripples things.
To be more specific it's not how well it can cripple things, it's how easily it can get away with it. Rotom-Heat for example can get punished by letting in a special attacker who despite hating the big chip, doesn't mind the burn or a fire type. Heatran being both takes the will-o-wisp, gets Flash Fire, and starts a rampage punishing Rotom for attempting to cripple. Ferrothorn as well lets in things like Clefable who doesn't mind Leech Seed with Magic Guard, or grasses like Bulu, Rilla, or Kart. Kart and Melm get frozen in their tracks by Buzzwole, who generally doesn't care about them. They can also be punished by Flame Body from Volcarona if you're feeling spicy that day.
The big 2 who truly can go unpunished once they get going are the afformentioned Heatran who only truly doesn't cripple itself so it can just fire off Magma Storms, dealing incredible chip whenever it feels like, and Weavile since CB Beat Up very importantly does NOT make contact. Meaning it cant be punished by Ferro, or Helmet Buzz, or Flame Body, or anything. Once Weavile is in, it just fires off super strong beat ups, claiming a kill, then swaps ready to kill again. However I'm still not sure if I consider them overpowered or not. I've talked about wanting a Weavile suspect just to test its true worth, but I'm still very on the fence if not leaning to keep them around.
You can't really say that something is broken because not much can swap in without getting crippled. That applies to A LOT of things. Heatran, Weavile, Lele, Blacephalon and Dragapult, Melmetal, Kartana, Zapdos, Barraskewda in Rain being big offensive ones, but defensively you got Ferrothorn with Leech Seed, Lando-T with Toxic/Knock, Mew with an abundance of things, Melmetal AGAIN with Thunder Wave AND Toxic, Chomp with Toxic, hell even Rotom-Heat uses Will-O-Wisp, that cripples things.
To be more specific it's not how well it can cripple things, it's how easily it can get away with it. Rotom-Heat for example can get punished by letting in a special attacker who despite hating the big chip, doesn't mind the burn or a fire type. Heatran being both takes the will-o-wisp, gets Flash Fire, and starts a rampage punishing Rotom for attempting to cripple. Ferrothorn as well lets in things like Clefable who doesn't mind Leech Seed with Magic Guard, or grasses like Bulu, Rilla, or Kart. Kart and Melm get frozen in their tracks by Buzzwole, who generally doesn't care about them. They can also be punished by Flame Body from Volcarona if you're feeling spicy that day.
The big 2 who truly can go unpunished once they get going are the afformentioned Heatran who only truly doesn't cripple itself so it can just fire off Magma Storms, dealing incredible chip whenever it feels like, and Weavile since CB Beat Up very importantly does NOT make contact. Meaning it cant be punished by Ferro, or Helmet Buzz, or Flame Body, or anything. Once Weavile is in, it just fires off super strong beat ups, claiming a kill, then swaps ready to kill again. However I'm still not sure if I consider them overpowered or not. I've talked about wanting a Weavile suspect just to test its true worth, but I'm still very on the fence if not leaning to keep them around.
Let’s start with Darkfu
Having to slap a Regen mon + Dark/Fairy type on every team is clearly restricting in teambuilding. Koko dies to a Poison Jab in one hit. Fini gets 2HKOd by Pjab and doesn’t outspeed it. And again, Fini has no reliable recovery. Band and BU were already bad enough to deal with, but then LO 4 attacks limited counterplay to Buzzwole which is an utter momentum drainer, especially back in early Crown Tundra where it didn’t even run offense. Not to mention it can always be bypassed via FS.
Sub-Glare/Toxic Zygarde was an absolute rng fuck fest that warranted a quick ban. Its also worth mentioning that like Kyu, you had to account for a billion different sets. Band/Double Dance/Coil/Sub-Tox/etc. None of the mons listed can safely come in on Zygarde. Weav and Alolatales can’t take a T-Arrows. Cloyster is only seen on HO and even then it doesn’t want to deal with Glare. Buzz can straight up lose if it gets Toxic’d or para haxed. Slowbro and Hippo don’t want to take Toxic or Glare. Clef could lose even if it isn’t carrying Glare cause Zygarde is so unapologetically bulky. Heal Bell only has 8 pp, meaning in practice Zygarde will beat it out in the long run.
Spect is only hard walled by one type, normal. Which if you haven’t guessed, only one (Blissey) is easy to splash on teams. The rest are fringe or bad outside of checking Spectrier. Hydrei and Mandi lose to Specs Hex after rocks and being burnt. Defensive Hydrei is just bad outside of checking Spect and like Tran. Mandi gets burnt and can no longer break the sub. Bliss needs fckn Sball and even then its never breaking the sub after Spect gets up a cm, which results in stall wars that isn’t fun for either side. Pult doesn’t ohko +1 Spect. SpD Tar needs rest to deal with Spectrier in the long run which results in it being a massive momentum sink. Good grounds/bulky waters that are great in other roles are a lot easier to come by than slotting in fucking Goon or shitty ass SpD Hydrei.
Quiver Dance Mosa was not niche in the slightest. Everything gets 2HKOd while it outspeeds 99% of OU with its other sets, but Quiver Dance alone limits its checks to like fucking Clefable and Volcarona. AlolaWak is fucking garbage and dies to rocks + repeated u-turns anyways. Molt, Pex, Peli, and Buzz lose to QD and can’t punish Pads. G-Weez has no reliable recovery and is not an easy mon to splash. With all due respect for Cofa, it is not a viable mon in SS whatsoever. Even if it was, it has no reliable recovery, and still loses to broken ass Quiver Dance. What is Cofa gonna do to a +1 Mosa? For priority and scarfers, Mosa gets a speed boost after a kill or a QD, making any form of speed control besides Swift Swim Barra obsolete. Your only option is priority from Rilla or Daunt, but they are never switching into it anyways. Not to mention Pads is just Cinderace but on serious crack.
I respect wanting a more diverse meta, but having 6 broken ahh mons is not the way to go. The meta only accounts for competitiveness and whether you believe the meta is fun or not is just personal preference. Just remember there is a reason these mons are in Ubers.
You yourself constructed a list of viable counterplay to lele ( a few not even steel types ) that's much bigger than the counterplay to the other banned mons you mentioned which often required you to pick from a small pool of ou viable pokemon alongside another pool of very niche/sub optimal picks that made your team very weak to other common threats , centralizing the meta severely.
Lele is almost naturally checked by virtue of the fact any good team in pokemon since like forever has needed a steel type and there are many viable steels in OU. It's only means to force progress against most of them are to click the unreliable focus miss and then like tbolt for corv but it's not always ideal and the choice lock, relatively low speed for an offensive mon , and poor physical bulk make it highly exploitable
. At its core, the team structure you have voiced concern over it is an inherent consequence of the typing chart that is forcing these team structures for the last 4-5 gens. First it was dragons and now we have fairies and steel type is inherently good since it checks both and a large portion of the rest of the metagame as well.
And while we are on that note , we need bulky grounds so you don't just click X versus volt- turn spam and we abuse bulky waters as scald is the best move in the game, and it's only weak to two types, one covered by your obligatory electric immune and the rather lackluster overall typing in grass which is easy to account for in the builder.
These issues are more so a problem with the overall flaws of the game as presented to us by Gamefreak and less so the cause of any one individual threat. The actual individual threats that warp the metagame ( like say Magerna) around themselves are banned to ubers as that leaves us with a metagame that while not perfect is far more playable and diverse.
I don't disagree with you that Weavile is probably the most problematic mon in the meta right now, but Heatran has always been a sleeping threat that should be at one point suspected. Why are people too afraid of Heatran being suspected? I remember when we suspected Zam-C people were like "we're only gonna suspect it for 2 weeks, there is no reason not to." Why have suspect happy-go-lucky people suddenly become Buddha when it comes to suspecting Heatran? Unless people think there is a more prevelant issue (which is fair), Heatran should be suspcted. Now, or after Weavile, just please before this gen ends.
One of the main reasons Heatran doesn't feel choking right now is because there are good splashable and effective switch ins. SpD Lando-T, Garchomp, and Tapu Fini. There other water types that are so good vs. Tran. Another thing is HO is so incessent right now. Defensive Heatran doesn't shine as much, but offensive Heatran has been doing great.
The fundamental reasons the Heatran is suspectworthy are as follows:
1. His overwhelming ability to force the game to progress. When Heatran is in the field, something is going to happen. Lando-T will lose 40%, rocks are going up, chomp is getting toxic'd, etc. It is hard to visualize this progress, because it is small, yet it's perpetual. First time Heatran is in, he toxic’s Garchomp or Lando-T. Next time, he magma storms. Third time, they’re dead on the switch. Afterwards, Heatran is getting a kill every time he comes in. Over a succession of switches, he will do incredible progress. The amazing part is that he pretty much does this every single game, even when checks or even counters exist. The aggregate of these small, but consistent and inevitable, progresses becomes quite big.
2. His magneticism to support. It's very easy to support heatran. With his bulk and typing, he can switch in on many things. With Teleport and U-turns on forced switches, he gets vast opportunities to swtich for free and do his thing. A leftovers Heatran might be walled by Balloon Heatran, but it will inevitably be popped. Tapu Fini’s Leftovers will be knocked. Moreover, Heatran supports many things. He can get rid, or significantly weaken, Blissey, Toxapex, Fini, Slowbro/King, etc. This makes fellow wallbreakers, including Weavile and Urshifu-RS, much more effective. Why did Toxapex fall off so much in usage? One of the reasons is Heatran. Toxapex can be a needed check/counter to Weavile, yet it's still not used much. You can also support Heatran with grassy terrain, or misty terrain to block para. You can give Heatran Nature Power to get past Garchomp or water types. It also appreciates Future Sight. These common aspects that people have on every other team favor Heatran quite well.
3. His consistency in getting rocks. There are extremely few mons that can defog on Heatran. Many people prefer to outsource rocks to a different mon (another of why Heatran is good), but on Heatran, common Defoggers like Torn-T and Corv cannot reliably defog. Only Fini really, and even then it could only come in 3-4 times.
4. His incredible diversity. You can run SpD, you run physical defensive, you can run max speed timid, you can run modest, you can run air balloon, leftovers, or specs. You can run eruption (even on non-sun teams), you can run flash cannon, nature power, body press. You can run Protect with Toxic, or with grassy terrain. There was a period where some people run Heavy Slam even. Oh, and yes you can run Flame Body and burn crap. And don't forget powerherb + solar beam. You never really know what the Heatran in the back is going to be, and even if you do, you are still wary.
5. Most teams aren't prepared for a well-played Heatran. Most people aren't building teams around Heatran. They use Heatran to suplement other teammates. But, you'd be very surprised what a team that is built to support Heatran, rather than the opposite, can do. Grassy Terrain, for example, gives Heatran a chance to be more aggressive. He can magma storm and ground types, and then switch. He can recover better, especially with Protect. He can use Nature Power to eliminate Swampert/Gastrodon, but also to eliminate Slowking/Slowbro at a healther percentage. It allows you to get past Slowking-Galar w/ EQ. On the other hand, you can give it misty terrain, and now Nature Power (esp if max SpA) significantly weaken Garchomp or Urshifu-RS that commonly switch on it. It also gives it a safer switch in on stuff like Zapdos or Clefable fearing para. It would love Wish support. I can go on.
As an extension of this point, most people slap on Fini, SpD Lando-T, or Garchomp and think that they, by doing that, have succeeded in safeguarding themselves against Heatran. This is actually the very thing that makes Heatran. That most people think they can adjust for it through simple, common measures. Yet, those "checks" will inevitably be worn down, slowly, but surely. And Heatran comes on top.
The main reason why people do not see Heatran as a threat, is because what makes it suspect worthy rely on statistical data that we have long become jaded to. Heatran's most common teammate? Landorus-T. Heatran is also top 1 or top 2 most common teammate with Lando-T. Why? because they form an incredible defensive core. Typing by far the most improtant, but also in utility, in defensive measures, and in offensive measures. What about the fact that so many Heatran checks exist, and Heatran STILL manages to be top 5 usage, and he's as effective as ever. What are Heatran's next most common teammates? Weavile and Dragapult. Yes, it is true that some of this might be because they're all highly used, or that Heatran is very splashable, but we still find a high correlation. Heatran weakens fini or toxapex for Weavile, and it also weakens SpD glues like Lando-T for Dragapult. The higher the ladder, you will see Ferrothorn + Heatran rise (a very good sleeper core), but also more things like NP Tornadus-T or Calm Mind Tapu Koko that, again, Heatran does great in aiding. How come we have not sat down and thought that Heatran inhibits so many mons that OU would be entirely different. Perhaps Weavile or Dragapult would not be as choking as they are now.
Many of the arguments against a heatran suspect is that either there are more problematic things (which is fair enough) or entirely fallacious arguments. Magma Storm's accuracy is completely irrelevant, as Heatran is extremely consistent. Many Heatran's are already running Flame Body, so it's not entirely true that Volcarona will become "unstoppable" if Heatran is gone. I mean 80% of teams don't even have Heatran, yet they don't find Volcarona or Clefable problematic.
I think those 2 cents are enough. I won't be talking more about Heatran even when people inevitable respond to me. I only hope for a suspect.