Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[clementinabroccolina]

I don't disagree with you that Weavile is probably the most problematic mon in the meta right now, but Heatran has always been a sleeping threat that should be at one point suspected. Why are people too afraid of Heatran being suspected? I remember when we suspected Zam-C people were like "we're only gonna suspect it for 2 weeks, there is no reason not to." Why have suspect happy-go-lucky people suddenly become Buddha when it comes to suspecting Heatran? Unless people think there is a more prevelant issue (which is fair), Heatran should be suspcted. Now, or after Weavile, just please before this gen ends.

One of the main reasons Heatran doesn't feel choking right now is because there are good splashable and effective switch ins. SpD Lando-T, Garchomp, and Tapu Fini. There other water types that are so good vs. Tran. Another thing is HO is so incessent right now. Defensive Heatran doesn't shine as much, but offensive Heatran has been doing great.

The fundamental reasons the Heatran is suspectworthy are as follows:
1. His overwhelming ability to force the game to progress. When Heatran is in the field, something is going to happen. Lando-T will lose 40%, rocks are going up, chomp is getting toxic'd, etc. It is hard to visualize this progress, because it is small, yet it's perpetual. First time Heatran is in, he toxic’s Garchomp or Lando-T. Next time, he magma storms. Third time, they’re dead on the switch. Afterwards, Heatran is getting a kill every time he comes in. Over a succession of switches, he will do incredible progress. The amazing part is that he pretty much does this every single game, even when checks or even counters exist. The aggregate of these small, but consistent and inevitable, progresses becomes quite big.

2. His magneticism to support. It's very easy to support heatran. With his bulk and typing, he can switch in on many things. With Teleport and U-turns on forced switches, he gets vast opportunities to swtich for free and do his thing. A leftovers Heatran might be walled by Balloon Heatran, but it will inevitably be popped. Tapu Fini’s Leftovers will be knocked. Moreover, Heatran supports many things. He can get rid, or significantly weaken, Blissey, Toxapex, Fini, Slowbro/King, etc. This makes fellow wallbreakers, including Weavile and Urshifu-RS, much more effective. Why did Toxapex fall off so much in usage? One of the reasons is Heatran. Toxapex can be a needed check/counter to Weavile, yet it's still not used much. You can also support Heatran with grassy terrain, or misty terrain to block para. You can give Heatran Nature Power to get past Garchomp or water types. It also appreciates Future Sight. These common aspects that people have on every other team favor Heatran quite well.

3. His consistency in getting rocks. There are extremely few mons that can defog on Heatran. Many people prefer to outsource rocks to a different mon (another of why Heatran is good), but on Heatran, common Defoggers like Torn-T and Corv cannot reliably defog. Only Fini really, and even then it could only come in 3-4 times.

4. His incredible diversity. You can run SpD, you run physical defensive, you can run max speed timid, you can run modest, you can run air balloon, leftovers, or specs. You can run eruption (even on non-sun teams), you can run flash cannon, nature power, body press. You can run Protect with Toxic, or with grassy terrain. There was a period where some people run Heavy Slam even. Oh, and yes you can run Flame Body and burn crap. And don't forget powerherb + solar beam. You never really know what the Heatran in the back is going to be, and even if you do, you are still wary.

5. Most teams aren't prepared for a well-played Heatran. Most people aren't building teams around Heatran. They use Heatran to suplement other teammates. But, you'd be very surprised what a team that is built to support Heatran, rather than the opposite, can do. Grassy Terrain, for example, gives Heatran a chance to be more aggressive. He can magma storm and ground types, and then switch. He can recover better, especially with Protect. He can use Nature Power to eliminate Swampert/Gastrodon, but also to eliminate Slowking/Slowbro at a healther percentage. It allows you to get past Slowking-Galar w/ EQ. On the other hand, you can give it misty terrain, and now Nature Power (esp if max SpA) significantly weaken Garchomp or Urshifu-RS that commonly switch on it. It also gives it a safer switch in on stuff like Zapdos or Clefable fearing para. It would love Wish support. I can go on.

As an extension of this point, most people slap on Fini, SpD Lando-T, or Garchomp and think that they, by doing that, have succeeded in safeguarding themselves against Heatran. This is actually the very thing that makes Heatran. That most people think they can adjust for it through simple, common measures. Yet, those "checks" will inevitably be worn down, slowly, but surely. And Heatran comes on top.

The main reason why people do not see Heatran as a threat, is because what makes it suspect worthy rely on statistical data that we have long become jaded to. Heatran's most common teammate? Landorus-T. Heatran is also top 1 or top 2 most common teammate with Lando-T. Why? because they form an incredible defensive core. Typing by far the most improtant, but also in utility, in defensive measures, and in offensive measures. What about the fact that so many Heatran checks exist, and Heatran STILL manages to be top 5 usage, and he's as effective as ever. What are Heatran's next most common teammates? Weavile and Dragapult. Yes, it is true that some of this might be because they're all highly used, or that Heatran is very splashable, but we still find a high correlation. Heatran weakens fini or toxapex for Weavile, and it also weakens SpD glues like Lando-T for Dragapult. The higher the ladder, you will see Ferrothorn + Heatran rise (a very good sleeper core), but also more things like NP Tornadus-T or Calm Mind Tapu Koko that, again, Heatran does great in aiding. How come we have not sat down and thought that Heatran inhibits so many mons that OU would be entirely different. Perhaps Weavile or Dragapult would not be as choking as they are now.

Many of the arguments against a heatran suspect is that either there are more problematic things (which is fair enough) or entirely fallacious arguments. Magma Storm's accuracy is completely irrelevant, as Heatran is extremely consistent. Many Heatran's are already running Flame Body, so it's not entirely true that Volcarona will become "unstoppable" if Heatran is gone. I mean 80% of teams don't even have Heatran, yet they don't find Volcarona or Clefable problematic.

I think those 2 cents are enough. I won't be talking more about Heatran even when people inevitable respond to me. I only hope for a suspect.

While I respect that you wrote a lot, I just... am pretty unconvinced by this. I'm not expecting a response but I wanted to draw attention to the reasoning that somehow Heatran is making Dragapult (a mon that isn't oppressive right now) and Weavile (a very big threat) worse which you just can't really prove since well... you didn't? The only "fallacious argument" you included is magma storm's accuracy which is usually just a small note in terms of its inherent limitations. You didn't really explain why in particular this mon is so hard to reliably check and instead just kind of used wishy-washy phrasing everywhere and... pretty dubious claims. Heatran is kind of controversial so I'm all good with a disagreement but I also think you saying that you won't be justifying yourself when people respond just kind of sealed the deal for how I feel about this lol

 

[Moyashi]

I'm gonna be blunt, and this may come off as a bit harsh, but...

Why are people too afraid of Heatran being suspected? I remember when we suspected Zam-C people were like "we're only gonna suspect it for 2 weeks, there is no reason not to." Why have suspect happy-go-lucky people suddenly become Buddha when it comes to suspecting Heatran? Unless people think there is a more prevelant issue (which is fair), Heatran should be suspcted. Now, or after Weavile, just please before this gen ends.

No one is afraid. They just don't find it suspect worthy. You can be top tier without being suspect worthy. And that's really what it boils down to. Also... Quite frankly the comparison to ZamaC is pointless and does not work at all. People wanted ZamaC tested to see if it would fit into OU, given it wasn't much in ubers at the time. Of course, the suspect happened and people learned it wasn't going to be a positive presence in OU.

you say "Heatran should be suspected", but go on to not give a good reason why. You just listed off the qualities it has and what makes it top tier (top two for many). Also

The main reason why people do not see Heatran as a threat, is because what makes it suspect worthy rely on statistical data that we have long become jaded to.

This is disingenuous and almost a bit insulting if you think people don't see it as a threat just because people don't consider it suspect worthy. Everyone who plays takes heatran seriously as a threat. That doesn't make it suspect worthy. I also don't appreciate you going on about how "Many of the arguments against a heatran suspect is that either there are more problematic things or entirely fallacious arguments" and then proceeding to make strawmen of arguments no one seriously makes regarding the topic.

 

[Xenocide88]

The fundamental reasons the Heatran is suspectworthy are as follows:
1. His overwhelming ability to force the game to progress. When Heatran is in the field, something is going to happen. Lando-T will lose 40%, rocks are going up, chomp is getting toxic'd, etc. It is hard to visualize this progress, because it is small, yet it's perpetual. First time Heatran is in, he toxic’s Garchomp or Lando-T. Next time, he magma storms. Third time, they’re dead on the switch. Afterwards, Heatran is getting a kill every time he comes in. Over a succession of switches, he will do incredible progress. The amazing part is that he pretty much does this every single game, even when checks or even counters exist. The aggregate of these small, but consistent and inevitable, progresses becomes quite big.

2. His magneticism to support. It's very easy to support heatran. With his bulk and typing, he can switch in on many things. With Teleport and U-turns on forced switches, he gets vast opportunities to swtich for free and do his thing. A leftovers Heatran might be walled by Balloon Heatran, but it will inevitably be popped. Tapu Fini’s Leftovers will be knocked. Moreover, Heatran supports many things. He can get rid, or significantly weaken, Blissey, Toxapex, Fini, Slowbro/King, etc. This makes fellow wallbreakers, including Weavile and Urshifu-RS, much more effective. Why did Toxapex fall off so much in usage? One of the reasons is Heatran. Toxapex can be a needed check/counter to Weavile, yet it's still not used much. You can also support Heatran with grassy terrain, or misty terrain to block para. You can give Heatran Nature Power to get past Garchomp or water types. It also appreciates Future Sight. These common aspects that people have on every other team favor Heatran quite well.

3. His consistency in getting rocks. There are extremely few mons that can defog on Heatran. Many people prefer to outsource rocks to a different mon (another of why Heatran is good), but on Heatran, common Defoggers like Torn-T and Corv cannot reliably defog. Only Fini really, and even then it could only come in 3-4 times.

4. His incredible diversity. You can run SpD, you run physical defensive, you can run max speed timid, you can run modest, you can run air balloon, leftovers, or specs. You can run eruption (even on non-sun teams), you can run flash cannon, nature power, body press. You can run Protect with Toxic, or with grassy terrain. There was a period where some people run Heavy Slam even. Oh, and yes you can run Flame Body and burn crap. And don't forget powerherb + solar beam. You never really know what the Heatran in the back is going to be, and even if you do, you are still wary.

5. Most teams aren't prepared for a well-played Heatran. Most people aren't building teams around Heatran. They use Heatran to suplement other teammates. But, you'd be very surprised what a team that is built to support Heatran, rather than the opposite, can do. Grassy Terrain, for example, gives Heatran a chance to be more aggressive. He can magma storm and ground types, and then switch. He can recover better, especially with Protect. He can use Nature Power to eliminate Swampert/Gastrodon, but also to eliminate Slowking/Slowbro at a healther percentage. It allows you to get past Slowking-Galar w/ EQ. On the other hand, you can give it misty terrain, and now Nature Power (esp if max SpA) significantly weaken Garchomp or Urshifu-RS that commonly switch on it. It also gives it a safer switch in on stuff like Zapdos or Clefable fearing para. It would love Wish support. I can go on.

Addressing some of the points made above:
1. In a meta that is centralizing more around making consistent progress mons that do this well will rise up. Heatran and Slowbro have both been more popular because of this.

2. Heatran's move pool is both a blessing a curse, as it deals with 4mss quite a bit. You know regardless of what the set is, you can prepare for at least a fire move and Earth power a majority of the time, and have a pretty strong guess as to what the remaining moves are. This becomes even more apparent at team preview, as Nature power isn't uncommon enough that when you see a Tapu with Tran you shouldn't immediately consider it as an option they are bringing.

3. Someone has to be the best rocker. The fact that it pressures common defoggers shouldn't be a knock against it, just that team building has room to adjust to use defoggers that Heatran doesn't threaten if it's presence continues to rise.

4. I addressed its versatility above, but to double back it's in a middling speed tier for offensive mons, and is weak to three fairly common attacking types. It can do a lot with many sets, but each is limited in the scope of what it excels at, and in particular lacks recovery. That combined with its weaknesses means most well constructed teams are going to have ways that force Heatran out.

5. I think you kind of repeated yourself here. But to say people aren't prepared for Heatran is inaccurate. To say people aren't building to maximize and exploit Heatran may hold some merit. I could see Tapu Bulu rising in usage if players wanted to go the exploit Tran route of progress gameplay.

 

[RufflesPro]

The only reason I didn't want to respond is because I don't want to clutter the discussion with talking about a potential suspect in the meta, when there is already an incoming survey where people can actually vote on who they think is problematic.

I only attempted to convince whoever gave the argument a shot. If I couldn't convince you, then that's on me. I only gave reasonings that came off the top of my head. Maybe I will give a fleshed-out argument when the survey comes to maximize my efforts. Maybe, maybe not. I understand that people consider Heatran a threat, but do not find it suspect worthy. It would be much too difficult to convince people that Heatran is more problematic than Weavile in the current meta, despite many people putting Heatran as more 'effective' in the meta than Weavile. Regardless, I would not mind Weavile being suspected either.

Nonethless, Heatran continues to thrive. He may have the masses fooled, but I shall never succumb to the masses. You will never fool me, Heatran.

 

[Lord Xen III]

The only reason I didn't want to respond is because I don't want to clutter the discussion with talking about a potential suspect in the meta, when there is already an incoming survey where people can actually vote on who they think is problematic.

I only attempted to convince whoever gave the argument a shot. If I couldn't convince you, then that's on me. I only gave reasonings that came off the top of my head. Maybe I will give a fleshed-out argument when the survey comes to maximize my efforts. Maybe, maybe not. I understand that people consider Heatran a threat, but do not find it suspect worthy. It would be much too difficult to convince people that Heatran is more problematic than Weavile in the current meta, despite many people putting Heatran as more 'effective' in the meta than Weavile. Regardless, I would not mind Weavile being suspected either.

Nonethless, Heatran continues to thrive. He may have the masses fooled, but I shall never succumb to the masses. You will never fool me, Heatran.

I don't think it's cluttering the thread much though yet as this the first time heatran has been seriously discussed in a while I think. And a few months ago I didn't think wesvile needed a suspect but have since changed my mind so I think its okay to give some people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to open mindedness.


After reading your post I thought back to some of my games where I faced heatran and it can seem oppressive sometimes. However I've accepted that the mon doesn't have any true counters bar things like heal bell dragonite or rest bulky chomp. Heatran can force progress inevitably but it' also lacks reliable recovery and is prone to taking knock offs as well. Even things like blissey which it can beat 1v1 doesn't go down without making heatran incredibly weakened.


It's speed is pretty mid at best and despite its bulk and typing its forced out by many ou threats and there are still lots of interim checks to it. Toxapex still can run shed shell which means while it will lose 1v1 it is still an interim check that can be used throughout the game thanks to regenerator.toxapex hasn't really fallen off due to heatran imo, shed shell has been a thing for a while. Toxapex just faces stiff competition from other bulky waters, namely slowtwins at the moment and tends to drain momentum at times. It also doesn't reliably beat weavile long term due to swords dance out stalling haze when factoring in pressure , leaving its main counterplay to be fishing for scaled burns. Bro can at least lure weaviles a good portion of the time depending on the set with colbur press.


And I don't think beating checks long term is necessarily a big issue. HDB zeraora also beats lando long term due to knock off but usually at that point the game was decided


Granted though heatran is really really great now and definitely second best mon but I don't think it's broken.

 

[658Greninja]

From all the Tran ban discourse, I don’t see how Heatran is anything different from Clef mashing Knock and T-Wave or Trick. Toxic Tect Melm having no switch ins besides the steel birbs, Ferrothorn annoying every thing. Tran is not fast at all. While it doesn’t have true counters per say, it can be forced out easily due to its 4x ground weakness, and water weakness. We have mons that don’t counter it in the long run but can outrun and force it like Dnite, Urshifu, Chomp, etc. Tran could also be overwhelmed with cores like Lele + Pult, limiting its opportunities in making progress. Stall has gotten much better at adapting to Tran with Shed Pex and Gastro (which are good on Balance teams). Clef users have realized that without Heavy Slam, Tran has a hard time 1v1ng it. Clef can also para or Knock its lefties off, making the 1v1 solved. Thus more people have forgone options like Toxic just to hit Clef, meaning the options to check it are less likely to get worn down as quickly. Tran is one of if not the best mon in the tier, but I don’t see it getting suspected anytime soon. Tran hasn’t been broken for 4 generations, and it isn’t broken now.

 

[Magcargo]

honestly why the hell was zygarde even allowed in OU? i don’t remember much from the early DLC2 meta, so i can’t for the life of me remember if power construct was banned or not, but regardless, the fact that the council thought zygarde would be balanced for the meta is ridiculous tbh. as you mentioned, it had tons of different sets to account for, as well as having generally good stats across the board. zygarde deadass should’ve been ubers from the start, that thing is either a monstrous wallbreaker or insurmountable physical wall that any OU mon not named weavile could never hope to break past

Sometimes mons that were once deemed unbalanced for OU will become balanced in the tier due to metagame or mechanics shifts. Just look at Blaziken or National Dex Deoxys-D. These mons were previously considered overpowered, but now, they are seen as relatively balanced in the tier due to the shifts in the metagame not being favorable for them.

Also, how is Zygarde a monstrous wallbreaker or wall? What made it busted was the ease at which it was able to set up thanks to sets like SubGlare and its strong one-move coverage in Thousand Arrows. It was mainly good for its sweeping capabilities, not walling or wallbreaking capabilities, since Thousand Arrows only has 10 PP and wouldn't be dropping mons in one hit without accruing multiple boosts. Zygardes defensive abilities were good, but more so in allowing it to get setup opportunities rather than making it a strong wall.

 

[julian113]

Hello everyone, a very interesting discussion prompt came up in the SS OU Viability Rankings thread; I mentioned that it was a discussion not meant for there, but it is one we 100% would love to see more of, so here's me bumping it here instead!

The question in particular was: what, in your eyes, are the tier's current top 10 Pokemon?

We encourage that you explain your thought process with your decision making! So, when explaining your placements, consider questions such as:

1: Why do you feel this Pokemon belongs in the top 10?
2: Why does this Pokemon deserve its particular placement? How about compared to its competition?
3: How does this Pokemon operate in the SS OU metagame, and what attributes does it have that make so particularly effective?

Thought I’d give my two cents
1.
Easy pick for #1 imo. Nothing is as omnipresent in the tier as lando and it’s role compression feels undroppable on most BO or balance teams. Sd sets I think are better than people make them out to be, particularly in conjunction with power herb as a really cool buzzwole lure and generally difficult to wall breaker. The set that lands it here in #1 though is no doubt the bread and butter spdef/mixed defensive pivot set, whether it be a defogger or a rocker, you will very rarely regret adding lando to your team.
2.
Not much in this tier seems to be able to be consistently threatening matchup to matchup like toxic+taunt tran is. I never feel heatran is deadweight, it’s an extraordinarily efficient breaker+disruptor, and it’s very splashable, checking a lot of relevant metagame threats (volcarona, tapu lele, blacephalon, etc). If I had to pick a mon that was the “most broken” it would be heatran, just for its unparalleled ability to force progress vs the vast majority of teams without an extremely specific check (heal bell dnite, rest chomp, etc). I do think it’s still balanced though by the abundance of short term checks and ways to offensively pressure it. Newly prominent sets like offensive balloon rocks have also enjoyed great success and solidify heatran's position at #2.
3.
Everyone’s favourite weasel is here. Just gonna drop my anti-broken reasoning I had prepared earlier before I made this post. I happen to hold a very strong no ban/suspect stance on weavile because of how natural it is to fit 3 or even 4 weavile checks in any given team, it doesn’t constrain building in the slightest imo. Buzzwole, urshifu-rs, toxapex, heatran, ferrothorn, tapu fini, tapu koko, zeraora, alolatales, melmetal, corviknight, clefable, bisharp, blaziken, colbur slowbro, volcanion etc. There are tons of good mons that can revenge kill and situationally switch into weavile, even if you lack a stronger check on a particular team. As for band beat up, it’s only ever remotely threatening with all 6 mons free of status, which limits it to the lead position (really predictable and easy to counterlead) or a clever double switch at the start of the match (which is no different than double switching to lele on a buzzwole, volcanion on a corviknight, etc to get early game breaking going). Band weavile is also rocks weak and reliant on prediction (if they go clef on beat up you’ve accomplished nothing). Sd hdb is relatively easy to wall with standard checks like toxapex, buzzwole, and corviknight and is a significant positive presence in tier with its splashability. I’ve seen some people argue sd lo is broken, which is just silly imo because of how easy it is to pressure/ko with hazards and rocky helmet/barbs chip. Low kick might give it near perfect coverage, but then it’s giving up the ability to rkill chomp,lucha, pult and becoming really easy to rkill itself. All this being said, weavile is still #3 in the tier for me, because of its great typing for both offensive pressure and useful resistances. Knock off provides guaranteed value over the course of a lot of matches since a significant amount of teams lack a reliable absorber like pex or clef. Ice stab is great to abuse nearly all of the viable grounds, and ice shard is a great rkilling and cleaning tool.
4.
Hopping on the top 5 clef train because I feel it’s gotten really easy to slot onto teams lately, even more so than the likes of ferrothorn and torn-t. Old reliable rocks utility is still as solid as ever, being a great disruptor with either twave or knock off, both if you opt to drop rocks. Calm Mind sets can be terrifying to a lot of bulky builds, especially with a thunder para on heatran, I feel like its a good deal better than cm fini in the current meta due to a better matchup against most ferrothorn and access to more reliable, consistent recovery. Another monstrous clefable set is the infamous tricky barb, which nearly always results in basically playing 5v6 unless you have your own clefable. It's a great lure for the likes of Heatran and Melmetal, especially because they really dislike losing their items and taking that 12% chip every turn. Pairing this with a teammate checked by one or both of the aforementioned mons like volcarona or lele forms a devastating combo.
5.
Ferrothorn remains the single best way to punish uturn in Gen 8 OU. In a meta centered around contact punishment, ferrothorn finds itself onto many bo and balance teams that appreciate its ability to stack hazards and provide teammates other assistance in the form of leech seed recovery and knock off support. Checking 4 particular offensive threats in tapu koko, weavile, tapu lele, and melmetal make it really splashable and convenient to slot onto a ton of teams as evidenced by its usage. The only things holding it back from a couple spots higher in my book is heatran's prominence combined with its general passivity vs teams not abused by leech seed (regen mons, clef, grasses).
6.
Seen a couple people suggest specs is no longer pult's best set because of the prominence of weavile, but I still think its as reliable as ever. Specs sballs are still really hard to switch into for offensive teams, particularly because weavile isn't the good pult check some people think it is. This is compounded when you opt to run modest, making spdef drops just that much more threatening to traditional switchins like clefable or toxapex. I do personally still prefer timid though, because getting the jump on jolly weavile and tapu koko can be really important lategame, where dragapult shines best. Dragon dance sets are still lowkey impossible to beat in the long run, with weakness policy on screens ho compounding the difficulty of handling it. Cores like fairy+ghost resist do well enough, but are easy to pressure with teammates like melmetal. Banded pult is niche but a great cleaner in its own right, paired with zone or tricky barb clef can make it even more deadly than the ddance set with its immediate power.
7.
The first bird is here (lando doesn't count). Torn provides great utility with defog and knock off, as well as a difficult to wall hurricane, even when uninvested. Taunt is as good a move as ever and it really shows with torn, shutting down cm sweepers, rocks, and status. Nasty Plot sets are inconsistent but deadly when they hit. Rain torn is also incredibly threatening, giving a bit of insight into how good torn would be if it always landed its attacks. Its large array of coverage options with heat wave, sludge bomb, icy wind, and focus blast allows for customization of the no defog hdb set, as well as av as a blanket check to various spatkers. Checking kartana, buzzwole, urshifu-rs, and rillaboom cements its place on a lot of popular archetypes, ranging from semi-stall to rain to ho. There is a noticeable gap between #6 and #7 imo, due to being fairly abusable by weavile and the electrics of the tier, as well as a case of 4mss, often wanting defog knock off uturn hurricane a coverage move and taunt, but being unable to fit all moves at once.
8.
Second bird checking in. Zapdos differentiates itself from torn thanks to its objectively better typing in electric-flying and roost, allowing it to serve as a great check to melmetal and gzapdos, although lacking knock off and the valuable speed tier+ability of torn. Offensive sets have been on the rise for a while now and its not difficult to see why. Many teams these days are lacking the blanket special wall necessary to consistently stave off tbolt+hurricane, which heatran merely serving as a short term check. Volt switch is also a great option, with many people afraid to switch in lando or chomp and take huge hurricane damage. Static also helps zapdos find a place on many teams in this era of contact punishment, paralyzing potential threats like dragapult and urshifu-rs on a uturn.
9.
If your not running lando you are running garchomp or you are running some lame fat balance/stall that is boring as hell to use. Bulky rocks chomp can seldomly replace lando on certain teams that appreciate the resistances/neutralities dragon brings to the table (particularly vs heatran), and not needing a secondary ground immune/koko check. Where garchomp really shines though is in its bread and butter sweeper set. Scale shot while inconsistent is a great asset in turning chomp from a breaker to a fully-fledged sweeper/cleaner once priority rkillers (mostly just weavile) have been accounted for. Having a basically free moveslot to accompany sd scale shot eq is also a great asset, being able to opt for fire fang (targeting ferrothorn and metal birds), aqua tail (targeting lando), stone edge (more efficient ko on zapdos/torn/mandi without relying on scale shot), or rocks (because u couldn't fit them anywhere else). The only reason chomp isn't higher is simply because of competition as a x4 ice weak ground with lando, stacking them isn't always a good idea because of weavile's presence.
10.
It seems like we've come full circle since the start of the future sight shenanigans, first it was slowbro, then glowking and slowking had their time in the spotlight, but now its back to ol' reliable slowbro. While futureport has been adapted to in the last few months, and is no longer getting any ban calls, its still a great way to enable terrifying breakers that struggle to get in regularly. Colbur bro has also been present for as long as weavile has been dominating the tier, serving as a great lure against players who don't know any better. Other options like ice beam or flamethrower can help slowbro deter itself from being setup fodder for the likes of dragonite and kartana/rillaboom.

 

[Magcargo]

those are two mons that have fallen off HARD in ubers though. like they were at the bottom of the VR gens 6 and 7, and could barely find themselves a niche in the metagame, hence why they dropped. zygarde, however, has been a defining presence in the metagame ever since sun and moon, and has never skipped a beat. hell, even now, zygarde is a very solid mon in the current ubers metagame, being ranked A in the ubers VR. maybe in the future, the power creep will get so bad that even zygarde will no longer be able to keep up, but it’s still great as of now.



i was definitely wrong on the wallbreaking part (i was referring to the band set, which still isn’t that common) but as for the wall part, it has great bulk and a defensive typing with only one notable downside in a 4x weakness to ice. now again, defensive sets weren’t the main reason for its ban, but they certainly can be hard for most pokemon to break past without ice-type coverage or if they aren’t a strong dragon/fairy breaker.

if you still think i’m just spewing bullshit, that’s 100% fine and i’d even like to hear why i’m wrong, but as of right now, i don’t see any real reason for zygarde to be in OU at all unless it gets power crept out of existence, or if some see it as the only reliable answer to a terrifying new wallbreaker like ursaluna or something

Uh, I think you are forgetting that in Ubers, Zygarde is able to use Power Construct, which it wasn't able to when it was unbanned earlier this generation. Power Construct Zygarde is on another level compared to Aura Break Zygarde due to its drastically better bulk letting it live absolutely absurd attacks and making its Substitue virtually unbreakable. Aside from that, viability in Ubers doesn't really affect whether Smogon decides to test things or not in the first place. The one example that comes to mind is Genesect and Reshiram, where Genesect was ranked A+ in gen 5 ubers while Reshiram was ranked C-Rank. Yet Smogon decided to retest Genesect in Gen 6 and not Reshiram, though I imagine Smogon has significantly shifted its philosophy since those days.

 

[Lord Xen III]

Uh, I think you are forgetting that in Ubers, Zygarde is able to use Power Construct, which it wasn't able to when it was unbanned earlier this generation. Power Construct Zygarde is on another level compared to Aura Break Zygarde due to its drastically better bulk letting it live absolutely absurd attacks and making its Substitue virtually unbreakable. Aside from that, viability in Ubers doesn't really affect whether Smogon decides to test things or not in the first place. The one example that comes to mind is Genesect and Reshiram, where Genesect was ranked A+ in gen 5 ubers while Reshiram was ranked C-Rank. Yet Smogon decided to retest Genesect in Gen 6 and not Reshiram, though I imagine Smogon has significantly shifted its philosophy since those days.

Well it's also that viability doesn't inherently mean something isn't broken.


At one point this gen kyurem couldn't even Crack S but was already in talks for suspects.And in gen 5 deoxys d was like A rank yet banned to ubers.


Viability is a bit different than suspect worthiness as viability rankings give more weight to splashability.


So just because something is more viable doesn't always mean it's more op.

 

[viivian]

Uh, I think you are forgetting that in Ubers, Zygarde is able to use Power Construct, which it wasn't able to when it was unbanned earlier this generation. Power Construct Zygarde is on another level compared to Aura Break Zygarde due to its drastically better bulk letting it live absolutely absurd attacks and making its Substitue virtually unbreakable. Aside from that, viability in Ubers doesn't really affect whether Smogon decides to test things or not in the first place. The one example that comes to mind is Genesect and Reshiram, where Genesect was ranked A+ in gen 5 ubers while Reshiram was ranked C-Rank. Yet Smogon decided to retest Genesect in Gen 6 and not Reshiram, though I imagine Smogon has significantly shifted its philosophy since those days.

honestly i was unsure if zygarde could use power construct or not, since again, i don’t remember much from the early DLC2 meta, but seeing that it can’t, that makes a lot more sense now.

goddamn I feel like such an idiot now lmao

 

[odt]

For a first post its great! Its a pretty funny coincidence because I've been experimenting with Bulky Bulu myself, and was starting to prep a VR nom. SubSeedToxic is great, but Ferro becomes a HUGE issue imo. You literally do absolutely nothing to the man. Heatran can also be a small problem in the long run with it being immune to toxic, and it just recovers off leech seed damage with Lefties + Terrain.

A much more interesting, and absolutely HILARIOUS option is this:


Tapu Bulu @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Atk / 132 SpD or 132 Def
Careful or Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Focus Punch
- Horn Leech

THATS RIGHT BAYBEE. SUB-SEED-PUNCH. Have you ever wanted to catch a Heatran off guard and absolutely obliterate its very soul, well boy do I have the set for you. With just 124 attack investment you can absolutely decimate Offensive Tran, and unlike Toxic sets, you can also smack a Ferrothorn off the face of Galar.

Now I know what you are saying, "Isn't Close Combat just better in this scenario?" and Funny story. Nope. In this very specific scenario, I believe Focus Punch is justified over CC because you have to invest a lot more into attack to kill Tran, and even the 2HKO is missed by 124 ATK Bulu on Ferro. With Focus Punch all you need is rocks chip and Heatran falls in 1 hit, and Ferro will fall in 2, but Ferro never gets 2HKOd by CC, and Heatran avoids the OHKO. Crazy stuff. Using Focus Punch also allows you to run more defensive investment, letting you live more hits.

With that 132 Defense, you can actually live a Weavile's non-banded Triple Axel, and fire off an up to 87% Horn Leech in return, healing 1/3rd of your health back, then recovering with lefties and grassy terrain before swapping. That interaction could nullify Weavile as a Pult swap in setting up a clean for later. Alternatively, 132 Special Defense lets you feel a lot safer around Pult shadow balls, actually being a roll to 3HKO with the SpDef investment, which is otherwise a roll to 2HKO. Although both of those are still not full checks since you don't want to have to check Weavile or Pult with Bulu, it becomes a backup option in a scary scenario.

Despite seeming like a meme on the surface this set has brought me some great moments, as it just jukes its "checks". Zapdos' will come in, and while it can break your sub and quickly kill you, just click leech seed, recover to full, and swap out like nothing happened. Sub is amazing for scouting choice users while still allowing bulu to heal back the damage it took from Sub with the Lefties + Grassy + Leech. Once Bulu is behind a sub it really doesn't have to worry unless its Weavile's triple axel, Pults infiltrator, or Cloysters Icicle spears. Otherwise just come in on something that can't break your sub, sub up on the swap, leech seed as they break the sub, then just swap like nothing happened with leech seed healing comin to whoever is comin in.

TL:DR: Despite seeming fringe, Focus Punch helps Bulu break through Tran and Ferro while keeping decent offensive pressure without sacrificing too much defensive investment. SubSeed Bulu in general is really strong, and great at stallbreaking, or just making your opponent hate your entire existence.

I've been using subseedPunch for a while now and its a monster vs stall and catching a Weavile/Melmetal on the switch with FP is just the best.

My favourite spread is Adamant with 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe, it gives you an easier time beating corvi/skarm (1 crit and they're done for) and the higher atk/lower hp makes healing up enough for a sub more forgiving.

Such an easy move-set to use and doesn't make me miss glide/turn while using it :)

 

[ausma]

My favourite spread is Adamant with 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe, it gives you an easier time beating corvi/skarm (1 crit and they're done for) and the higher atk/lower hp makes healing up enough for a sub more forgiving.

This set seems really interesting and I’d love to try it. Something about this interaction I think it’s worthwhile to consider is that if you get them low enough through means like Rocky Hemet and Stealth Rock, you’ll snipe them on a Roost for super effective damage due to Focus Punch’s negative priority, making it so they can’t ever heal on you and securing a KO if they’re in range and they need to get healthy again. This is also part of why I really like Focus Punch as an option on Protective Pads Urshifu-R, as it allows Urshifu-R to follow up with devastating damage on Corviknight when it attempts to heal after taking a Surging Strikes. It is worth nothing though that it’s a bit lower value with decreased Corviknight usage nowadays.

My Top 10 SS OU Pokemon are currently as follows:

1:
2:
3:
4:
5:
6:
7:
8:
9:
10:

 

[viivian]

For a first post its great! Its a pretty funny coincidence because I've been experimenting with Bulky Bulu myself, and was starting to prep a VR nom. SubSeedToxic is great, but Ferro becomes a HUGE issue imo. You literally do absolutely nothing to the man. Heatran can also be a small problem in the long run with it being immune to toxic, and it just recovers off leech seed damage with Lefties + Terrain.

A much more interesting, and absolutely HILARIOUS option is this:


Tapu Bulu @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Atk / 132 SpD or 132 Def
Careful or Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Focus Punch
- Horn Leech

THATS RIGHT BAYBEE. SUB-SEED-PUNCH. Have you ever wanted to catch a Heatran off guard and absolutely obliterate its very soul, well boy do I have the set for you. With just 124 attack investment you can absolutely decimate Offensive Tran, and unlike Toxic sets, you can also smack a Ferrothorn off the face of Galar.

Now I know what you are saying, "Isn't Close Combat just better in this scenario?" and Funny story. Nope. In this very specific scenario, I believe Focus Punch is justified over CC because you have to invest a lot more into attack to kill Tran, and even the 2HKO is missed by 124 ATK Bulu on Ferro. With Focus Punch all you need is rocks chip and Heatran falls in 1 hit, and Ferro will fall in 2, but Ferro never gets 2HKOd by CC, and Heatran avoids the OHKO. Crazy stuff. Using Focus Punch also allows you to run more defensive investment, letting you live more hits.

With that 132 Defense, you can actually live a Weavile's non-banded Triple Axel, and fire off an up to 87% Horn Leech in return, healing 1/3rd of your health back, then recovering with lefties and grassy terrain before swapping. That interaction could nullify Weavile as a Pult swap in setting up a clean for later. Alternatively, 132 Special Defense lets you feel a lot safer around Pult shadow balls, actually being a roll to 3HKO with the SpDef investment, which is otherwise a roll to 2HKO. Although both of those are still not full checks since you don't want to have to check Weavile or Pult with Bulu, it becomes a backup option in a scary scenario.

Despite seeming like a meme on the surface this set has brought me some great moments, as it just jukes its "checks". Zapdos' will come in, and while it can break your sub and quickly kill you, just click leech seed, recover to full, and swap out like nothing happened. Sub is amazing for scouting choice users while still allowing bulu to heal back the damage it took from Sub with the Lefties + Grassy + Leech. Once Bulu is behind a sub it really doesn't have to worry unless its Weavile's triple axel, Pults infiltrator, or Cloysters Icicle spears. Otherwise just come in on something that can't break your sub, sub up on the swap, leech seed as they break the sub, then just swap like nothing happened with leech seed healing comin to whoever is comin in.

TL:DR: Despite seeming fringe, Focus Punch helps Bulu break through Tran and Ferro while keeping decent offensive pressure without sacrificing too much defensive investment. SubSeed Bulu in general is really strong, and great at stallbreaking, or just making your opponent hate your entire existence.

what teams does this fit on and who should i pair it with, i HAVE to try this set out sometime. please give me any usage tips for this set if you have any, it looks fun as hell and i really want to use it

My Top 10 SS OU Pokemon are currently as follows:

1:
2:
3:
4:
5:
6:
7:
8:
9:
10:

interesting how both your top 10 and my top 10 have the exact same pokemon listed, just in different orders. i absolutely agree that these are the best pokemon in the metagame but slowbro should definitely be in last place imo, it’s probably the worst out of the top 10.

 

[RedDiamond1024]

This set seems really interesting and I’d love to try it. Something about this interaction I think it’s worthwhile to consider is that if you get them low enough through means like Rocky Hemet and Stealth Rock, you’ll snipe them on a Roost for super effective damage due to Focus Punch’s negative priority, making it so they can’t ever heal on you and securing a KO if they’re in range and they need to get healthy again. This is also part of why I really like Focus Punch as an option on Protective Pads Urshifu-R, as it allows Urshifu-R to follow up with devastating damage on Corviknight when it attempts to heal after taking a Surging Strikes. It is worth nothing though that it’s a bit lower value with decreased Corviknight usage nowadays.

My Top 10 SS OU Pokemon are currently as follows:

1:
2:
3:
4:
5:
6:
7:
8:
9:
10:

Focus punch on pads shifu? Does it replace cc or is it the 4th move since I've almost never foumd myself using cc on shifu.

 

[ausma]

Focus punch on pads shifu? Does it replace cc or is it the 4th move since I've almost never foumd myself using cc on shifu.

It replaces the 4th move. The standard tends to be Ice Punch to snipe Dragonite and that's generally much more consistent, but I think it's really easy to pressure Dragonite with status and pivoting anyway, and Focus Punch is also particularly effective with Future Sight support into Toxapex since the added strength from Focus Punch in tandem with Future Sight allows it to KO it with a follow-up Surging Strikes/CC.

interesting how both your top 10 and my top 10 have the exact same pokemon listed, just in different orders. i absolutely agree that these are the best pokemon in the metagame but slowbro should definitely be in last place imo, it’s probably the worst out of the top 10.

I can respect that! I personally really value Slowbro just because of how much role compression it provides, blanket checking nearly all of the physical metagame, and furthermore how blatantly great Future Sight is at helping teams much more readily adapt against and dismantle bulkier structures. Its popular Colbur Berry set also lets teams have an added check to Weavile. It fits on a lot of structures, checks a ton, and is a Pokemon that is consistently easy and effective to make progress with, and I think that kind of utility in a metagame where dictating momentum and forcing KOs is immensely valuable is really nice to have.

 

[Endrism]

what teams does this fit on and who should i pair it with, i HAVE to try this set out sometime. please give me any usage tips for this set if you have any, it looks fun as hell and i really want to use it

I've been getting good results with Bulu-TTar. Bulu struggles against those big 3 ghosts due to their heavy spam and good secondary typings against Bulu, however Tyranitar can bulk up shadow ball after shadow ball and strike back incredibly hard since CB T-Tar has so little swap-ins. Also makes Volcarona easier to deal with. I'm probably gonna end up making the full team a RMT in the near future so I won't disclose full details ;)

I highly suggest Bulky Offense tho, as having a lot of swap ins that you can just keep swapping between is really nice with Grassy Terrain support.

 

[Moyashi]

I've been getting good results with Bulu-TTar. Bulu struggles against those big 3 ghosts due to their heavy spam and good secondary typings against Bulu, however Tyranitar can bulk up shadow ball after shadow ball and strike back incredibly hard since CB T-Tar has so little swap-ins. Also makes Volcarona easier to deal with. I'm probably gonna end up making the full team a RMT in the near future so I won't disclose full details ;)

I highly suggest Bulky Offense tho, as having a lot of swap ins that you can just keep swapping between is really nice with Grassy Terrain support.

To add to this, Bulu provides CB Ttar with the recovery that it normally has to forgo by running that CB, giving it some useful longevity and also cutting the earthquake weakness down. It's honestly a solid pairing in general

 

[Morkal]

I'm delighted to see discussions revolving around niche mons in the OU metagame thread lately; it warms my heart to see people experimenting with Pokemon that have a lot of untapped potential, especially with all the Tapu Bulu discussions recently. So I want to share a few niche sets on niche Pokemon that I've been using to surprisingly good effect in OU lately.

Duraludon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 4 HP / 36 Def / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Steel Beam
- Thunderbolt / Thunder (for rain teams)
- Flash Cannon / Body Press / Stealth Rock​

So Duraludon is an absolute monster with Specs for several reasons, and I've been using it as a lure and unconventional answer for unique combinations of threats across OU. Let me explain the EVs quickly before I jump into the other attributes. 216 Speed EVs with a Timid nature bring Duraludon's total speed up to 286, enough to outpace Timid / Jolly base 80 speeds such as DD Dragonite before a boost. 252 Special Attack for full investment, and a little HP and Defense investment to compliment Duraludon's excellent physically defensive profile. No investment is needed for Duraludon's Special Defense as no amount of reasonable EV investment would save its specially defensive profile without running Assault Vest. (As a heads up, I highly recommend running Duraludon with Grassy Terrain support from a Pokemon such as Rillaboom or Tapu Bulu).

So now, why would you use Duraludon? There are three reasons; power, STAB combination, and specific critical resistances on the Physical side. First, let's look at some damage calculations against some bulky threats (only bulky calcs, you can imagine what would happen to more frail targets).

252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 286-338 (71.6 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 204-242 (67.1 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 499-588 (119.3 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Steel Beam vs. +1 (Calm Mind Boost) 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 474-558 (120.3 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 408-480 (103.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 301-355 (78.1 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 332-392 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Volcanion: 325-384 (89.5 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
36 Def Duraludon Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 244-288 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
36 Def Duraludon Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 128-152 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
36 Def Duraludon Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 272-320 (100.3 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Duraludon outspeeds almost all of the Pokemon that it would be tasked with handling and fires off powerful attacks more easily than its Dragon-type contemporaries, thanks to the mind games that its Steel / Dragon typing brings. Compressing the role of handling numerous Dragons, Fairies, and Waters into a single slot is vital within team building. It allows you to free up space for more specified coverage options on your other Pokemon, in addition to being able to run more specific archetypes.

Draco Meteor and Steel Beam are your nuclear STABs and will maim almost anything they come into contact with that isn't immune to it. Thunderbolt is Duraludon's best coverage option and should always be on your set (unless you're running a Rain team, in which case, run Thunder). The last slot is a toss-up depending on your specific needs. Flash Cannon is secondary Steel STAB that still nails some impressive damage thresholds and does not have the nasty recoil of Steel Beam. Body Press can be an interesting surprise for chunked Blissey and offensive Heatran sets (especially since Duraludon outspeeds both of them), while Stealth Rock provides some surprise utility (especially if your Choice Specs is knocked off).

Duraludon's naturally good physical bulk of 70 / 115 with Steel / Dragon typing and slight investment of 4 HP and 36 Defense brings its total HP and Defense up to 282 and 275. This investment is a nice additional buffer for taking certain physical blows from bulkier Pokemon sets, even super effective hits in some cases, which Duraludon can then OHKO in return from max health, or with chip in some cases.

0 Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 36 Def Duraludon: 186-218 (65.9 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Dura outspeeds and OHKOs in return)
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 4 HP / 36 Def Duraludon: 94-111 (33.3 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Dura OHKOs and can live two hits with a minuscule chance to live three, especially with Grassy Terrain support)
252 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 36 Def Duraludon: 192-228 (68 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 36 Def Duraludon in Grassy Terrain: 98-116 (34.7 - 41.1%) -- 66% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (Even less damage dealt with Grassy Terrain, Duraludon outspeeds and has a high chance to OHKO even through Multiscale, and will always OHKO with chip damage)
36 Def Duraludon Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 120-142 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO, 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Duraludon: 210-247 (74.4 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (if Specs Zone is switched in to trap Duraludon, Magnezone will always be outsped and, with chip, always 2HKO'd)
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 4 HP / 36 Def Duraludon in Grassy Terrain: 51-60 (18 - 21.2%) -- possible 7HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (Adamant Rillaboom is always outsped and OHKO'd by Duraludon's Draco Meteor or Steel Beam).

To summarize, Duraludon's power, defensive utility, and STAB combination have a good place on multiple OU teams.

Glastrier @ Assault Vest
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Avalanche
- High Horsepower
- Crunch
- Close Combat​

This Pokemon can be nigh unkillable with the proper support, and under Trick Room is pure evil. While Ice is a notoriously bad defensive typing, its defensive stats of 100 / 130 / 110 is absolutely nothing to sneeze at. To show you what I mean, here are some specific calculations against it, along with the follow-up that Glastrier can provide. (As with Duraludon, I recommend Grassy Terrain support or at the very least Defog / Rapid Spin support)

0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Glastrier: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- 78.9% chance to 2HKO after trapping damage
252+ Atk Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 472-556 (122.2 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Blacephalon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Glastrier: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Glastrier Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 346-408 (140 - 165.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

4 Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Glastrier: 116-138 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 1.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Glastrier Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ferrothorn: 246-290 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Glastrier: 163-193 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Glastrier Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 296-350 (93.3 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Glastrier: 186-222 (46 - 54.9%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Glastrier: 278-330 (68.8 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 175-206 (56.2 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Glastrier: 300-354 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 212-250 (58.4 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Glastrier: 118-141 (29.2 - 34.9%) -- 11.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Glastrier Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 396-468 (103.6 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Those are high-powered, mainly STAB super effective hits. Now imagine what standard neutral hits accomplish? Glastrier uses its hard-hitting 145 Attack stat (same as Landorus-T) with its fantastic natural bulk and great coverage to maim teams and works wonderfully as a late game "slow-cleaner." Your opponent is either pressured into making decisions and risky switches they wouldn't want to make if they're aware of Glastrier's Assault Vest, or if they're unaware of the set, and then will lose their Heatran or Blacephalon because they went for Stealth Rocks or a STAB Fire move. Chilling Neigh also means that once Glastrier gets a kill and boosts its attack by +1, it becomes exponentially harder to switch into. It's a reasonably simple set compared to Duraludon but an extremely effective one.

 

[RedDiamond1024]

It replaces the 4th move. The standard tends to be Ice Punch to snipe Dragonite and that's generally much more consistent, but I think it's really easy to pressure Dragonite with status and pivoting anyway, and Focus Punch is also particularly effective with Future Sight support into Toxapex since the added strength from Focus Punch in tandem with Future Sight allows it to KO it with a follow-up Surging Strikes/CC.



I can respect that! I personally really value Slowbro just because of how much role compression it provides, blanket checking nearly all of the physical metagame, and furthermore how blatantly great Future Sight is at helping teams much more readily adapt against and dismantle bulkier structures. Its popular Colbur Berry set also lets teams have an added check to Weavile. It fits on a lot of structures, checks a ton, and is a Pokemon that is consistently easy and effective to make progress with, and I think that kind of utility in a metagame where dictating momentum and forcing KOs is immensely valuable is really nice to have.

I didn't know that the standard for pads shifu was ice punch. I've just been using jet since I figured the priority would be nice to have and also has a weavile on the team with it I've also had taunt recommended for the fourth slot as well so I might try taunt and focus punch in that last slot instead.

 

[ausma]

I didn't know that the standard for pads shifu was ice punch. I've just been using jet since I figured the priority would be nice to have and also has a weavile on the team with it I've also had taunt recommended for the fourth slot as well so I might try taunt and focus punch in that last slot instead.

Taunt has also been seeing a lot of use too; frankly I think there's a lot of ways you can approach Pads Urshifu-R's 4th move and really it's team dependent, as some Tapu Koko structures even feature options like Thunder Punch to snipe Toxapex. It's a shockingly versatile offensive pivot, and easily my favorite variant of Urshifu-R with how much leverage it gives Surging Strikes, even into common switch-ins like Ferrothorn or Slowbro since it's so easy to land a follow-up Close Combat and U-turn respectively. I definitely encourage exploring its options, even if it's not necessarily the most polarizing threat you'll face.

 

[odt]

To add to this, Bulu provides CB Ttar with the recovery that it normally has to forgo by running that CB, giving it some useful longevity and also cutting the earthquake weakness down. It's honestly a solid pairing in general

Yeah I've been pairing it with CB ttar a lot too, who seems to be an absolute menace in general in the current meta. With leftovers Bulu tends to have a really easy time healing up so the extra ss chip is almost always a plus, mainly due to rock/ground/steel types getting slapped by Horn Leech/FP.
Protect+taunt Heatran can also trap stuff it has absolutely no right to with grassy terrain healing.

 

[Xenocide88]

Protect+taunt Heatran can also trap stuff it has absolutely no right to with grassy terrain healing.

Bulu+Tran was one of my favorite combos in gen 7. Protect+Lefties+Grassy makes you feel like you legit have recover and helps you consistently remove a threat without trading off a majority of your HP. CB ttar is also a beast, maybe I'll try pairing then together as you've done.

 

[odt]

Bulu+Tran was one of my favorite combos in gen 7. Protect+Lefties+Grassy makes you feel like you legit have recover and helps you consistently remove a threat without trading off a majority of your HP. CB ttar is also a beast, maybe I'll try pairing then together as you've done.

I love the extra flexibility grassy terrain gives bulky teams when played right. Pex becomes near unbreakable and other partners like Ttar, Heatran, Melmetal (ect..) just do their job better.

Also, after extensive testing I can safely say timid Kartana is far from a bad option. This is the set I've been having the most success with:

• Kartana @ Protective Pads
• EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
• Timid Nature
• IVs: 19 Atk
• - Leaf Blade
• - Swords Dance
• - Sacred Sword
• - Knock Off

Don't bother with sdef, the calcs are all over the place. With grassy terrain up you'd be surprised how well you can tank physical hits and click SD. Once they see the speed increase from beast boost its always a forfeit. The grassy terrain boost lets you still grab crucial OHKOs at various attack stages. You could also opt for Aerial Ace over Knock off if you hate Buzzwole/Kommo-O/Gapdos and need them dead. Kartana wasn't consistently clicking for me with the standard move-sets, but I like how this combines Kartana's talents and also adds bulk.

 

[Lord Xen III]

I love the extra flexibility grassy terrain gives bulky teams when played right. Pex becomes near unbreakable and other partners like Ttar, Heatran, Melmetal (ect..) just do their job better.

Also, after extensive testing I can safely say timid Kartana is far from a bad option. This is the set I've been having the most success with:

• Kartana @ Protective Pads
• EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
• Timid Nature
• IVs: 19 Atk
• - Leaf Blade
• - Swords Dance
• - Sacred Sword
• - Knock Off

Don't bother with sdef, the calcs are all over the place. With grassy terrain up you'd be surprised how well you can tank physical hits and click SD. Once they see the speed increase from beast boost its always a forfeit. The grassy terrain boost lets you still grab crucial OHKOs at various attack stages. You could also opt for Aerial Ace over Knock off if you hate Buzzwole/Kommo-O/Gapdos and need them dead. Kartana wasn't consistently clicking for me with the standard move-sets, but I like how this combines Kartana's talents and also adds bulk.

0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 345-406 (107.1 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Kartana: 187-222 (72.2 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 309-364 (95.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Kartana: 211-249 (81.4 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


i could be wrong but im not sure that 252 hp is worth it over 252 spdef which gives you a higher chance to beat kartana's most notable revenge killers.