Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[clementinabroccolina]

I'd also like to add to the teleport discussion for some further support of how the Slowtwins are basically just lightning in a bottle when it comes to teleport

1. Wishport Clef just cannot keep up when a tier has numerous powerful wallbreakers, as we've seen in the history of the tier

2. Blissey has access to teleport yet still feels like a gigantic momentum sink all things considered

If a mon like Corviknight for instance had access to teleport, it'd definitely LIKE not having to worry about the chip causing a net increase in needs to use roost, but it wouldn't really stop it from struggling to meaningfully threaten many of the things that it's supposed to check (which has been its issue this past year)

Even just a tier below, one of the big reasons Mienshao got banned is because regenerator (an overtuned ability ofc whew) made its u-turns really difficult to punish and made the mon super difficult to wear down.

With all this being said I'm not calling for a ban to regenerator because that'd honestly be kind of ridiculous, but it just goes to show that the strength of certain pivots does come from a variety of factors and not just an overtuned move because honestly? There are a LOT of those in pokemon

I've spoke about maybe the negative priority being overkill because when drypassing was a thing it was still a great option, but a pivot move that's also affected by taunt is a legit drawback fwiw (even if it doesn't come in to play that much)

 

[Negative Charge]

hot take - I miss the Zamazenta meta. As I go back and reread the suspect thread many of the ban arguments ring a little hollow in view of the current meta but maybe that's just hindsight bias. I will say that reigning in offense/ho might be desirable seeing how far weavile has warped the meta in that direction.

 

[viivian]

hot take - I miss the Zamazenta meta. As I go back and reread the suspect thread many of the ban arguments ring a little hollow in view of the current meta but maybe that's just hindsight bias. I will say that reigning in offense/ho might be desirable seeing how far weavile has warped the meta in that direction.

>the Zamazenta meta

the what

 

[VannAccessible]

hot take - I miss the Zamazenta meta. As I go back and reread the suspect thread many of the ban arguments ring a little hollow in view of the current meta but maybe that's just hindsight bias. I will say that reigning in offense/ho might be desirable seeing how far weavile has warped the meta in that direction.

I never found it problematic myself. It was easy to wall and friggin Melmetal and Ferrothorn is way bigger pests as defensive steels, IMO.

Plus it was nice to have a real Knock Off absorber in this meta.

 

[Xenocide88]

Just look at Zam's stat block. That alone should tell you why it doesn't belong in OU. It's defensive merits being less than Melmetal and Ferrothorn is completely moot when you consider that it's defensive profile is secondary to its overwhelming offensive prowess. A mon like Weavile could never hope in any reality to warp the metagame as much as a mon like Zam-C could.
Also the tier already has good knock off absorbers, Toxapex stands out as the go to, but mons like Buzzwole, Ferro, and Slowbro can also take on that job if need be.

 

[VannAccessible]

Just look at Zam's stat block. That alone should tell you why it doesn't belong in OU. It's defensive merits being less than Melmetal and Ferrothorn is completely moot when you consider that it's defensive profile is secondary to its overwhelming offensive prowess. A mon like Weavile could never hope in any reality to warp the metagame as much as a mon like Zam-C could.
Also the tier already has good knock off absorbers, Toxapex stands out as the go to, but mons like Buzzwole, Ferro, and Slowbro can also take on that job if need be.

Ehhhh. Stats don't tell the whole story.

You have to take into account the milquetoast movepool and the functional lack of an item.

Despite its stats, Kyruem-Black was OU for a few gens until it got a physical ice STAB and Dragon Dance. Same deal.

 

[Xenocide88]

Ehhhh. Stats don't tell the whole story.

You have to take into account the milquetoast movepool and the functional lack of an item.

Despite its stats, Kyruem-Black was OU for a few gens until it got a physical ice STAB and Dragon Dance. Same deal.

Stats don't tell the whole story, you're right, but they are a pretty good indicator of where a mon will stack up. Very few mons have exceptional stat blocks like that and aren't good. It's bland move pool is fine given the fact that it has base 130 attack, a decent coverage combo in steel/fight, and access to base 100 power moves for said stabs.
You can give a lot of mons dragon dance and suddenly they become major problems. If Garchomp or Lando got it I'm sure there would be discussions about suspecting them. What compounded on Kyurem-B was it already was very threatening from the special side of the spectrum, and now it could be equally threatening from the physical side. That much more heavily warps how teams have to prepare for it, and even then its raw power allowed it to muscle through a lot of checks.

 

[658Greninja]

Ehhhh. Stats don't tell the whole story.

You have to take into account the milquetoast movepool and the functional lack of an item.

Despite its stats, Kyruem-Black was OU for a few gens until it got a physical ice STAB and Dragon Dance. Same deal.

Except Zama-C doesn’t have the same amount of weaknesses Kyu-B had. Kyu-B before Gen 8 was balanced by its stealth rock weaknesses, average speed tier of 95, and obviously the lack of physical ice STAB. If you haven’t noticed. Zama not only doesn’t have these problems, but it has even more.

The fact that this thing is faster than Weav, has Shifu’s attack stat, and is bulkier than Pex should be convincing enough that this mon would be comically broken. Steel/Fighting is a much better typing than Dragon/Ice cause it has a shitton of resistances and is good offensively. Now add in coverage with Wild Charge, Ice Fang, and a boosting move in Howl. The combination of its speed, power, and bulk means this thing is fucking immortal and cannot be one-shot. Heck it doesn’t even need coverage, it can just slot in Rest cause nothing can OHKO you anyways so who cares. There is a reason most fast Pokémon are frail. Even fucking Spectrier wasn’t that bulky.

Your checks are limited to Pex who can’t able to touch it if it has Rest and 2HKOs you after a boost. Buzzwole who doesn’t one-shot it and dies to Behemoth Blade. Zapdos who gets 2HKOd by +1 Wild Charge and needs rng to beat it. PhysD Lando has no recovery and no one uses that shit these days. And Volcarona who um..

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 156 Def Volcarona: 186-219 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Yeah.

This mon was tested and it was made abundantly clear why it stayed Ubers. Its stats were too broken. Why are we discussing this again? Especially when the meta isn’t different enough to warrant this.

 

[RedDiamond1024]

Stats don't tell the whole story, you're right, but they are a pretty good indicator of where a mon will stack up. Very few mons have exceptional stat blocks like that and aren't good. It's bland move pool is fine given the fact that it has base 130 attack, a decent coverage combo in steel/fight, and access to base 100 power moves for said stabs.
You can give a lot of mons dragon dance and suddenly they become major problems. If Garchomp or Lando got it I'm sure there would be discussions about suspecting them. What compounded on Kyurem-B was it already was very threatening from the special side of the spectrum, and now it could be equally threatening from the physical side. That much more heavily warps how teams have to prepare for it, and even then its raw power allowed it to muscle through a lot of checks.

While the dd set making kyurem threatening on the physical side applies to regular kyurem, Kyurem-B got dd and actual Ice stab in icicle spear, since the main thing holding it back was its physical movepool. Sure kyub had decent special prowess, but it was always a monstrous physical attacker first and foremost, dd+icicle spear pushed it over the edge, not just dd.

 

[Negative Charge]

My post is less about ZamaC (which I still think was perfectly reasonable and something I'd rather switch into than say, Weavile) but rather that as gen 8 closes out I don't think we have achieved a meta where all playstyles are in the same ballpark of viability. The meta is skewing very offense heavy; it's an open question if that's desirable.

 

[Finchinator]

My post is less about ZamaC (which I still think was perfectly reasonable and something I'd rather switch into than say, Weavile) but rather that as gen 8 closes out I don't think we have achieved a meta where all playstyles are in the same ballpark of viability. The meta is skewing very offense heavy; it's an open question if that's desirable.

I mean that’s not really the only goal of tiering, but also the playerbase as a whole has shown pretty widespread approval of the metagame in each survey, with numbers only increasing more over time.

And I think aside from stall being terrible outside of mid-low ladder, pretty much every style is solid right now, so I don’t think this is exactly a grip either.

 

[viivian]

(which I still think was perfectly reasonable and something I'd rather switch into than say, Weavile)

what? literally how, zam-c‘s attack stat and coverage is arguably deadlier than anything weavile could possibly have aside from ig banded beat up. idk how or why you find zam-c easier to switch into than weavile.

 

[Lord Xen III]

My post is less about ZamaC (which I still think was perfectly reasonable and something I'd rather switch into than say, Weavile) but rather that as gen 8 closes out I don't think we have achieved a meta where all playstyles are in the same ballpark of viability. The meta is skewing very offense heavy; it's an open question if that's desirable.

I don't think your thoughts on Zama C are the hottest take out there, as after all at least about ~50 people who achieved reqs voted Unban, of which include some pretty vocal tiering leaders. i think Zama-C personally was borderline and did make the meta a bit bulkier. It had the best matchup against HO, which even now is still kind of matchup fishy and not at its greatest point, though with Zama gone it
thrives better than stall.

it also had the additional role of keeping weavile in check indeed, but much like Weavile who i also think is borderline i don't think broken checking broken is a good way to balance the tier and i personally don't mind the slightly more offensively natured metagame.

 

[Drahe]

but rather that as gen 8 closes out I don't think we have achieved a meta where all playstyles are in the same ballpark of viability. The meta is skewing very offense heavy

I feel kinda same, my main tought about it, is lack of pokemons in sword & shield.
In the same way you are about zamaC, I was sad of magearna ban instead of complex ban autotomize set : anyway there's no reason to open back discussion about it.

it's an open question if that's desirable.

It's late now, with all suspect & ban we ad in the tier,
But I remember a discussion at early G8 about being good or not for meta ??
At this moment, I wasn't agree choice-items could be a problem, but now, I changed my minds.
With the combination of those speed tiers (+ a mention for choiced weather abusers)
I really feel restrict meta too much.

Banning band & specs would not remove all breakers from OU (exemple = we still have zone, heatran, aegislash, etc. forms of traping regenerators & taunt, as itself). And will open to more pokemons being played (as breakers) with variety of sets, especially at middle speed tier.
(exemple = NP rotoms ; heracross? ; crawdaunt ; more nidoking & volcanion ; bisharp back? ; NP togekiss? ; still lele with CM or taunt, shifu with BU or taunt, .....).
Ad that if choice were ban, weavile would be a serious suspect target.

To argue a bit more about choice items & speed tiers : tell me important speed caps between 222 & 317 in actual SSOU ?
(not including modest lele)
Even bisharp speed cap is no more important, most heatrans are full spd as landorus, buzzwole is played as 222 speed as full def... Etc ...
We're totally missing mid-speed pokemons as being impactant by their speed (like were full speed heatran before).
Metagame became walls saving fast-breakers incoming thanks to underspeed-pivots. Then u include hazards knock & defog.
It would have more speed interactions if the choice users listed above would not be so powerfull (or needing a turn for set-up/taunt/trap as a paid risk).

I'm not asking for this suspect, as I said I feel it's late now with work done. Just sharing my point of view.


PS : the way I describe metagame is caricatural, it's describing the restrictive pressure of "main OU gameplay"
don't be literal as answering, being caricatural help being understanded (& is time saving vs long descriptions).

 

[Lord Xen III]

With the combination of those speed tiers (+ a mention for choiced weather abusers)
I really feel restrict meta too much.

i'm not sure i see it.

All of these mons end up locking themselves into highly exploitable moves which can grant momentum to their enemies. Rocky helmet especially is disastrous for a banded urshifu locked into Surging Strikes.

i think Choice items are a fine component of the metagame as they add power or speed at the cost of adding prediction reliance and reduced flexibility.

the only time i recall Choice items being genuinely OP was during the Dynamax meta, where a choice locked pokemon could suddenly not be choice locked and then sweep your team
after breaking holes in it with it's CB, and even then it was Dynamax that was the problem.

 

[RedDiamond1024]

I feel kinda same, my main tought about it, is lack of pokemons in sword & shield.
In the same way you are about zamaC, I was sad of magearna ban instead of complex ban autotomize set : anyway there's no reason to open back discussion about it.

It's late now, with all suspect & ban we ad in the tier,
But I remember a discussion at early G8 about being good or not for meta ??
At this moment, I wasn't agree choice-items could be a problem, but now, I changed my minds.
With the combination of those speed tiers (+ a mention for choiced weather abusers)
I really feel restrict meta too much.

Banning band & specs would not remove all breakers from OU (exemple = we still have zone, heatran, aegislash, etc. forms of traping regenerators & taunt, as itself). And will open to more pokemons being played (as breakers) with variety of sets, especially at middle speed tier.
(exemple = NP rotoms ; heracross? ; crawdaunt ; more nidoking & volcanion ; bisharp back? ; NP togekiss? ; still lele with CM or taunt, shifu with BU or taunt, .....).
Ad that if choice were ban, weavile would be a serious suspect target.

To argue a bit more about choice items & speed tiers : tell me important speed caps between 222 & 317 in actual SSOU ?
(not including modest lele)
Even bisharp speed cap is no more important, most heatrans are full spd as landorus, buzzwole is played as 222 speed as full def... Etc ...
We're totally missing mid-speed pokemons as being impactant by their speed (like were full speed heatran before).
Metagame became walls saving fast-breakers incoming thanks to underspeed-pivots. Then u include hazards knock & defog.
It would have more speed interactions if the choice users listed above would not be so powerfull (or needing a turn for set-up/taunt/trap as a paid risk).

I'm not asking for this suspect, as I said I feel it's late now with work done. Just sharing my point of view.


PS : the way I describe metagame is caricatural, it's describing the restrictive pressure of "main OU gameplay"
don't be literal as answering, being caricatural help being understanded (& is time saving vs long descriptions).

For your first I'm more curious than anything about why ou would implement a complex ban on shift gear? What does mag bring to even warrant such a ban besides possibly a weavile switchin?

Anyways onto my main point, how would banning choice items open up more middling speed tier breakers? Wouldn't the same mons still be meta since they have good offenses and speed tiers to begin with? Lele, shifu, and gap can still break without their choice items, while specs pult isn't a breaker to begin with, its a cleaner. And if this ban was implemented it would nerf weav more than help since it would effectively lose on of its most threatening sets. As for banded skewda it's not hard to check since the tier has quite a few bulky waters to play with, while stuff like zard/darm would still be nigh unwallable without specs.

52 SpA Charcoal Solar Power Charizard Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 298-352 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Charcoal Solar Power Charizard Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 390-459 (54.6 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Charcoal Solar Power Charizard Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro in Sun: 233-275 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Charcoal Solar Power Charizard Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Drahe]

i'm not sure i see it.

You still need a pokemon to take their hit, being faster help to 2hko.
They don't need a turn to be powerfull, atm they're in they hit well (or menace to do).

I forget to specify they force teams to be offensive : like sending back hit for hit // or including big walls.

Wouldn't the same mons still be meta since they have good offenses and speed tiers to begin with? Lele, shifu, and gap can still break without their choice items, while specs pult isn't a breaker to begin with, its a cleaner. And if this ban was implemented it would nerf weav more than help since it would effectively lose on of its most threatening sets. As for banded skewda it's not hard to check since the tier has quite a few bulky waters to play with, while stuff like zard/darm would still be nigh unwallable without specs.

Right, for shifu lele etc. without specs. U still need answers vs pult, remember before anyone find ways to play around they were a big movement about suspecting him.
For weathers I were more thinking about checks for specs toad and kingdra (excluding blissey), barraskewda is more easily checked + frail.

Why banning band and specs could have more viable OU pokemons than still using shifu and lele ?
More pokemon having bulk and breaking options at middle speed, I listed some exemples as rotoms (wich sets are worst with NP than a specs lele)
Also, would have more reasons to play some fast pokemons if shifu and lele need a turn to set-up as every other one : hydreigon, gengar, latios ? Or more variability of sets like more taunt on koko or whatever.
Just exemples, I don't want to theoricraft this much.

 

[Xenocide88]

Drahe
I think banning choice items would only lead to bad sad things for the meta. All of those mons that use choice items are still good mons and would shift to other sets, where as breakers with more middling offensive stats who became more viable with the use of choiced items now don't have that option to compete.

To your point about Weavile, most people feel the Banded Beat Up sets are the most degenerate, if Choice Band were removed there wouldn't be a reason to consider it for suspect anymore since it's avenues of play would be more predictable and vulnerable to contact.

Certain team strategies will be more popular than others, and one has to be more popular than the rest. Bulky Offense being the most common archetype of the gen isn't as much a fault of gen 8, as it is the fault of having 8 gens. With each gen there are more mons and strategies to prepare for, and certain roles becomes more and more refined as the power creep increases. Bulky Offense is an archetype that can be built to give you answers to many different team building problems while sacrificing very little compared to other archetypes, thus its continued popularity and success over the other options. I don't see this as a bad thing, as honestly BO is the least polarizing play style. If stall were obviously the best strategy in gen 8 it would probably be a dead gen for example.

 

[Drahe]

Ok
Maybe that's me, because we didn't had new dlc / pokemon-home inport in SSOU or a new strategy-playable generation.
As I were sharing the feeling of Negative Charge I answered him & throw my "this is restrictive" target like some others do sometime with a thing or another.
Thought it could be a good discussion about choiced items with trying to avoid theorycraft, not sure anymore.

 

[Lord Xen III]

You still need a pokemon to take their hit, being faster help to 2hko.
They don't need a turn to be powerfull, atm they're in they hit well (or menace to do).

I forget to specify they force teams to be offensive : like sending back hit for hit // or including big walls.


Right, for shifu lele etc. without specs. U still need answers vs pult, remember before anyone find ways to play around they were a big movement about suspecting him.
For weathers I were more thinking about checks for specs toad and kingdra (excluding blissey), barraskewda is more easily checked + frail.

Why banning band and specs could have more viable OU pokemons than still using shifu and lele ?
More pokemon having bulk and breaking options at middle speed, I listed some exemples as rotoms (wich sets are worst with NP than a specs lele)
Also, would have more reasons to play some fast pokemons if shifu and lele need a turn to set-up as every other one : hydreigon, gengar, latios ? Or more variability of sets like more taunt on koko or whatever.
Just exemples, I don't want to theoricraft this much.

yeah but i feel like this would just make fatter teams even stronger. there aren't a lot of pokemon with insane immediate power without a choice item like melmetal. like you'd have to run the weaker LO whose recoil would kill your breaker quickly making the meta be even more offensive so you can have ample opportunity to break through walls.

 

[Martin]

I've generally tried to avoid posting in this thread recently because I'm not a hugely active player, but the assertion that choice items are unhealthy is, frankly, absurd. Regardless of your opinion on Weavile or Lele or Kartana or whatever else, if you are arguing that choice items are the problem, you are targeting the wrong thing. If a choice user is too much for the meta to handle, then it is not the fault of an item with an extremely polarising trade-off of immediate damage/speed for risk/flexibility: it is the fault of the user. This shit is not a universal Light Orb/Thick Club/Deep Sea Tooth/Deep Sea Scale/Quick Powder/Metal Powder/Eviolite/pre-nerf Soul Dew/etc.: it’s not free stats with no drawbacks.

You need offensive options to be a bit polarising. And I’m not just saying that because of that dumb “slightly broken = fun” argument that people throw out to defend poor balance in just about every game without considering context: I’m saying it because, if you gut offensive options, you are left with a game where nothing can break through the strongest defensive options on a consistent basis, especially with how frankly awful the design of defensive tools/decisions to gut counterplay to them has been over the past few generations—Regenerator, Heavy Duty Boots, Scald, Knock Off distribution buff, the ever-increasing distribution of Recover clones, removing Pursuit, removing gems (not Z-moves), everything about the design of Toxapex, etc.

Items like choice items are a necessity because they give offensive Pokemon that rely on immediate damage output a fighting chance against Pokemon who have the express goal of wearing them down by preventing them from making progress ad infinitum, many of which are able to take really minimal risk due to access to pivoting moves and/or the most appalling piece of game design in the entire franchise (major healing in exchange for switching out: especially in a game where switching is extremely tuned up and carries significantly less risk than to ever before due to its canned counterplay being signficiantly nerfed or gutted, respectively) without the drawback of either getting you killed, requiring prep time, or being extremely restrictive in how it boosts a-la Expert Belt, type boosters etc. And the drawback that they do carry is sufficiently polar to be balanced while punishing you for playing poorly… which is what good balance is supposed to do. They also improve available counterplay to offensive teams, which often won't give you time to set up more powerful offensive builds and may lack long-term responses to strong offensive options, or which may not have enough collective bulk to deal with a strong Scarfer without tackling it quickly, and this is once again something that is necessary for the game to be healthy.

And yeah: some of the users are debatably a little too much. While I'm not really convinced by the Weavile doomers, Kartana is a Pokemon that has never really sat right with me and which doesn't really feel in line with the power level of the other offensive Pokemon around it to me. But this is a problem with Kartana: not Choice Band/Scarf; and if CB Weavile is too much, it is a problem with Weavile; and if Specs Lele is too much, it is a problem with Lele; and if Specs Dragapult is too much, it is a problem with Dragapult. To target the item rather than the user here would be to put the cart before the horse.

 

[viivian]

I've generally tried to avoid posting in this thread recently because I'm not a hugely active player, but the assertion that choice items are unhealthy is, frankly, absurd. Regardless of your opinion on Weavile or Lele or Kartana or whatever else, if you are arguing that choice items are the problem, you are targeting the wrong thing. If a choice user is too much for the meta to handle, then it is not the fault of an item with an extremely polarising trade-off of immediate damage/speed for risk/flexibility: it is the fault of the user. This shit is not a universal Light Orb/Thick Club/Deep Sea Tooth/Deep Sea Scale/Quick Powder/Metal Powder/Eviolite/pre-nerf Soul Dew/etc.: it’s not free stats with no drawbacks.

You need offensive options to be a bit polarising. And I’m not just saying that because of that dumb “slightly broken = fun” argument that people throw out to defend poor balance in just about every game without considering context: I’m saying it because, if you gut offensive options, you are left with a game where nothing can break through the strongest defensive options on a consistent basis, especially with how frankly awful the design of defensive tools/decisions to gut counterplay to them has been over the past few generations—Regenerator, Heavy Duty Boots, Scald, Knock Off distribution buff, the ever-increasing distribution of Recover clones, removing Pursuit, removing gems (not Z-moves), everything about the design of Toxapex, etc.

Items like choice items are a necessity because they give offensive Pokemon that rely on immediate damage output a fighting chance against Pokemon who have the express goal of wearing them down by preventing them from making progress ad infinitum, many of which are able to take really minimal risk due to access to pivoting moves and/or the most appalling piece of game design in the entire franchise (major healing in exchange for switching out: especially in a game where switching is extremely tuned up and carries significantly less risk than to ever before due to its canned counterplay being signficiantly nerfed or gutted, respectively) without the drawback of either getting you killed, requiring prep time, or being extremely restrictive in how it boosts a-la Expert Belt, type boosters etc. And the drawback that they do carry is sufficiently polar to be balanced while punishing you for playing poorly… which is what good balance is supposed to do. They also improve available counterplay to offensive teams, which often won't give you time to set up more powerful offensive builds and may lack long-term responses to strong offensive options, or which may not have enough collective bulk to deal with a strong Scarfer without tackling it quickly, and this is once again something that is necessary for the game to be healthy.

And yeah: some of the users are debatably a little too much. While I'm not really convinced by the Weavile doomers, Kartana is a Pokemon that has never really sat right with me and which doesn't really feel in line with the power level of the other offensive Pokemon around it to me. But this is a problem with Kartana: not Choice Band/Scarf; and if CB Weavile is too much, it is a problem with Weavile; and if Specs Lele is too much, it is a problem with Lele; and if Specs Dragapult is too much, it is a problem with Dragapult. To target the item rather than the user here would be to put the cart before the horse.

i 100% agree with this. the existence of choice items is to provide a high-risk, high-reward option for wallbreakers, by adding more power in exchange for locking yourself into a move. it’s inconsistent and prediction reliant at times, but it rewards making smart plays and reading your opponent’s switches. while some pokemon may abuse it to all hell cough CB beat up weavile cough, it’s still a perfectly fine item for the most part, and if a pokemon with a choice item is considered too strong, it’s most likely the pokemon itself that’s busted, not the item.

also, that segment about removing gems made me wonder how gems would function in sword and shield, especially since it isn’t present at ALL in all of gen 8, not even in national dex. so on an unrelated note, how do y’all think gems would impact the current metagame? who would benefit the most from them, and would they be balanced in OU?

 

[clementinabroccolina]

i 100% agree with this. the existence of choice items is to provide a high-risk, high-reward option for wallbreakers, by adding more power in exchange for locking yourself into a move. it’s inconsistent and prediction reliant at times, but it rewards making smart plays and reading your opponent’s switches. while some pokemon may abuse it to all hell cough CB beat up weavile cough, it’s still a perfectly fine item for the most part, and if a pokemon with a choice item is considered too strong, it’s most likely the pokemon itself that’s busted, not the item.

also, that segment about removing gems made me wonder how gems would function in sword and shield, especially since it isn’t present at ALL in all of gen 8, not even in national dex. so on an unrelated note, how do y’all think gems would impact the current metagame? who would benefit the most from them, and would they be balanced in OU?

Aside from whether or not they would push some mons over the edge (cause that's honestly just hard to say outside of the classic setup sweepers), I've never really enjoyed gems or the effect they have on gameplay but more from just a pure personal preference standpoint. It's the same reason why I didn't realize how much Hidden Power annoyed me, where you kinda just pick which check you want to blow past and lure so winning gets rewarded by surprise factor instead of being the better player. In practice it's not always like that and I don't think they ever frustrated me as much as they did in BW2OU but I tend to lump them with Z-moves as things that just make the game feel rather cheap which, FWIW, competitive pokemon basically is already (and I don't like to be reminded RIP)

In terms of the impact it could have, I could see ghost types like Dragapult loving being able to fire off maybe a really strong Hydro Pump or Shadow ball and then not having to worry about the choice lock, as would Garchomp with its new speed boosting setup toy and vast array of viable items for its sweeper sets. It'd indirectly nerf knock off in some ways since there'd be one more type of item being consumed but the types of mons that I could see using them aren't really the type to want to switch into knock anyway so there's that I guess

 

[BT89]

I have seen a lot of insane claims in my experience watching and experiencing OU. However, the claims that I always like to go back to are the Uber suspect claims. Honestly, I think that the last thing this meta needs is to suspect any of the Ubers into OU. Frankly, they are all absurd in their own special ways, which I will detail here. (NOTE - These are based on recent claims in this thread!)


You had to be here to see this one! Zamazenta-Crowned was suspected after Blunder made a joke video and people took it far too seriously. Seriously to the point where there was a tangible argument to be made about Zama's existence in the tier. It's only boosting move is Howl, which, in tandem with slight 4MSS, Attack stat on par with a lot of Pokemon in the tier, and the amount of answers it had in the tier, made it potentially weak enough to be in OU.

However, while these were genuine flaws, Zamazenta-C was voted to remain in Ubers, where it is currently staying. This was mainly due to its absolutely suffocating match-up versus offensive teams, where the only real switch-ins were stuff like Volcarona, Victini, and Aegislash, which were more or less mandated on these teams. Zamazenta-C's bulk and Speed made it super easy for it to find opportunities to break through offensive teams. Because of this, teambuilding on offensive teams was much more limited, as they were more or less forced to pack numerous forms of counterplay to beat Zama. Because of these attributes, Zama-C was banned. It's likely that it would be even more suffocating now, what with the super abusable presence of Weavile for it and the lessening viability of switch-ins like Volcarona.


I saw someone bring up Magearna, so I'll be brief. There is no reason to unban Magearna. It warped teambuilding massively to the point where teams were forced to carry at least two to three checks for it just to sometimes keep it from assaulting teams as soon as the game loaded up. It also boasted incredible stats and a terrific defensive typing that let it, a lot like Zama-C, come in and tear open holes. Unlike Zama-C, however, Magearna blew holes through everything in the tier at the time! The meta still lacks any true Magearna answers that are capable of acting against every set, and teams would once again be super constricted with its presence. No form of complex ban could make up for Magearna's simply broken offensive presence.

Extra!


This claim frankly baffles me. Choice items are some of the most easily abusable offensive items in the game. Not to refuse their viability, they are not bad in any stretch of the imagination. However, unlike other banned items, they come with major opportunity costs, it isn't like the opponent gets a free 1.5x boost without anything to balance it out. Basically, everything Martin said in his post.

 

[A_Wild_Noob_Appeared!]

how do y’all think gems would impact the current metagame?

If it's the Gen 6+ gems with only a 1.3x boost, I think they'd see almost no use. The type-boosting items/plates are almost as strong and they work throughout the entire game, and Life Orb provides the same boost for every move (though with the cost of HP). The situations in which gems are worth using over those other items are very rare, pretty much limited to just Explosion lead Landorus (which is already available and not really worth it IMO) and Unburden sweepers (which would usually use Terrain Seeds anyways, as evidenced by Hawlucha only rarely running White Herb).

If Gems were reverted to a 1.5x boost, I'd imagine they'd see some use on many of the same Pokemon that abused Gems in Gen V or Z-Moves in Gen VII. That being said, some setup sweepers that had previously abused Gems/Z-Moves would still like other items (namely HDB for Volcarona, Dragonite, and Tornadus-T) and they are quite a bit less strong and versatile than Z-Moves. There are now Fairy-types to absorb gem-boosted Draco Meteors/Outrages and Kartana cannot OHKO an uninvested Tornadus-T on the switch without Stealth Rock damage (except with Steel Gem Smart Strike, which still only has a 31.3% chance to OHKO).

That being said, 1.5x Gems would still be nasty to be surprised with. There is at least one key target for them (with a little chip):
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Gem Fire Fang vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 320-378 (81.4 - 96.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock