Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Hate to be that one guy but I seriously doubt that the council is considering complex bans. The topic seems to be urshifu vs slowtwins, so the question we all need to be answering is if urshifu is gone will futureport still be a problem or the slowtwins are the problematic aspect of it
futureport isnt even a problem. The issue is way overblown and Futureport is being blamed for the constraint individual offensive mons are putting on the tier. Also if your team is weak to Futureport (it can happen unintentionally) check to see you're not weak to Specs Latios (even Latios in general) or Tapu Lele cause chances are you might be just weaker to the psychic archetype. I've played games where Futureport isn't present and it's the powerful mons in question that become the issue I need to handle in game or in the builder. Do nothing fat teams I feel like are the ones that seem to have the most issue with it from discussions I see from people playing stall, games I've used it and play against, or that tend to play it safe with some pex, blissey, zap, clef try to stall my opp out fatty builds. I also feel like people dont like FuturePort cause the move Teleport is a bit brainless to use and punishes passive play so people cant stay in their comfort zone, which is understandable but again misses the point of the debatable unbalanced receivers. I'd like to see some replays that are current dlc2 where slowbro is really breaking the meta and its not Urshifu coming in throwing out free Wicked Blows. I tend to use bro/king for their defensive merits as opposed to future sight use. I think that's what they're actually good for and Future Sight isnt as free of a move as it's made out to be when you might need to click Teleport to get out of the incoming insert breaker that doesnt care about bro. Maybe the complaint is a symptom of too many things to juggle at once but it's such a low priority thing to me leaving me scratching my head as what the uproar is about for this element specifically.
 

Finchinator

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Can you touch on what has changed with tiering policy compared to BW? I realize my position is exceptionally unpopular and I don’t really care how this particular issue plays out but I think it would be good to spell out what if anything has changed besides who’s in charge
I would appreciate if this was done privately as I just went out of my way to say this discussion was off topic here and this really is not even my topic to discuss as an OU Councilmen only as opposed to someone in charge of Smogon policy, but for the sake of clarity and to end this, sure.

The complex ban done in generation 5 to ban the combination of Drizzle + Swift Swim, also known as Aldaron's Proposal, was seen as a historic outlier, was only used as a poor knee-jerk response to a unique solution that involved defacing an entire tier otherwise, and any precedence it may have set was clearly removed when Smogon's track record not only distanced itself from a similar pattern of decisions, but also Old Generation Council's BW Council banned Sand Rush and Chlorophyll through votes instead of the same combination. I cannot go back to around when I started and explain what went through the minds of people making decisions ten years ago, but I can say that decisions made since then all clearly convey that complex bans are not in the cards for Smogon. If you have an issue with that, then this is not the place to express that issue, but rather in Policy Review / to tiering admins.
 
You hate Toxapex and want to laugh at your opponent at the same time?

Toxapex Killer
Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 Def / 148 SpA / 40 SpD / 68 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Mean Look
- Draining Kiss
- Taunt

I forgot why I put the SpA / Spd EV exactly like that, but CM Draining Kiss + Bold with no HP ensures maximum tanking and healing with Draining Kiss after you dunked Toxapex and setup the maximum +6 Calm Minds.

Vs. Pex you Mean Look and setup Taunt and Calm Minds. Just after one calm mind, your Leftovers already deal with Scald:
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. +1 0 HP / 40 SpD Tapu Fini: 13-16 (4.6 - 5.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever

In a pinch, you can do the following aswell:

+1 148 SpA Tapu Fini Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 54-65 (17.7 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO (8.8 - 10.3% recovered)

Therefore:
  • You outheal Scald Burns (don't forget Misty Terrain AND Taunt blocking Scald/Toxic!!)
  • You can't be hazed thanks to Taunt
  • Pex can't switch out thanks to Mean Look (that's the point).
  • I don't think I have to explain why removing Toxapex is amazing, do I?




Also if needed, you even beat Blissey after setting up on Toxapex thanks to the massive Draining HP recovery and Taunt.

+6 148 SpA Tapu Fini Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 184-217 (25.7 - 30.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
(49.1 - 58% recovered)
 

Zneon

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I do agree that Urshifu-S and Urshifu / Future Sight is pretty problematic especially considering that unlike Pheromosa and Melmetal, consistent counterplay to Urshifu really only limits to just Fairy-types, best ones being Clefable and Tapu Fini. However I also want to also bring up Spectrier as a discussion point too since its been a while since my last post on it while the metagame was still adjusting to the KyuB/Zyg ban and I find it to be the most problematic Pokemon in the tier right now and I feel that it warrants some serious discussion about its impact and place in the tier just like with Urshifu.

So you guys remember what I said about Spectrier before and how I was on the fence on it, well I pretty much made my mind up and I feel its a very limiting and unhealthy Pokemon for the metagame and I want to go over exactly why. So Spectrier is a pretty simple Pokemon, its movepool is very linear and its special attack and Speed are all excellent, as well as Grim Neigh, however it cannot really seem to do anything with just having Shadow Ball as an attacking move. Well the thing is, Ghost-type is one of the most offensively threatening STABs in the game and without Pursuit, Spectrier can just fire them off with pretty much no drawback, and that very Ghost-type STAB is exactly the reason why I feel Spectrier isn't as linear as it looks on paper, and the reason is that its really the only move that its really required on Spectrier.

With that, there are a lot of options you can do with Spectrier because its so threatening offensively already with just its ability, stats and STAB alone that it can really just mix and match what it wants to bypass its checks and counters. Counterplay speaking, I've said in my last post that there are a lack of Pokemon that can deal with Spectrier both offensively and defensively. Offensively, it really depends on its set, as Spectrier is one of the fastest unboosted Pokemon in the tier, making the only Pokemon faster than it or speed tie with it are Tapu Koko, opposing Spectrier, Dragapult, Pheromosa, and Regieleki. The latter 3 are outsped by Choice Scarf Spectrier, cannot stomach a Shadow Ball especially after rocks and if there isn't a backup answer to Spectrier it can pretty easily sweep after just 1 SpAtk boost from Grim Neigh. Meanwhile Choice Specs can just blow past a lot of stuff including Heatran and Protect Melmetal since Specs Shadow Ball has almost no switch ins. So offensively the best way to deal with it is prority from stuff like Urshifu and Rillaboom, both need to be brought in safely to be good answers to Spectrier but those can lose to Sub + NP. This wouldn't be a problem if Spectrier was a linear Pokemon with a one-dimensional playstyle, but sadly it isn't.

Stuff like Pheromosa and Dragapult beat Specs, but they lose to Scarf, SpDef Heatran and Tapu Fini can take a Scarf Shadow Ball and force it out however they cannot take a Specs Shadow Ball especially after rocks. Finally we have Sub + NP. Now the best answers to Spectrier are Blissey, Tyranitar, Mandibuzz and Zarude defensively. Blissey can wall choiced Spectrier forever and use it for momentum with Teleport, however Sub + NP can take advantage of it unless its running Shadow Ball or has an answer like Infiltrator Jolly Dragapult, Shadow Ball Blissey and Jolly Dragapult especially have become very needed options just to avoid Spectrier of having the chance of sweeping. Mandibuzz is also a great check to all sets, however if its SubDisable Spectrier, even fucking Mandibuzz has a chance of losing against Spectrier. Tyranitar has started to become exceedingly common for its special sponging abilities and also its ability to be a sand setter that checks Spectrier, this is probably the best one on this list because its a great Pokemon in its own right and one of the best counters to it, however its started to run Rest, which speaks volumes to the impact Spectrier has started to have on the tier. Lastly we have Zarude, if we are talking about answers to all sets overall then this is probably the best answer to Spectrier we have, however in terms of viability and splashability I find it to be worse than all the other Pokemon I've listed.

Get the problem? Spectrier is capable of bypassing all of these Pokemon and this is really depending on what set it is running, and its pretty hard to tell given the fact that Shadow Ball is really the only move really is required to use, from there the item and moves can really be whatever the Spectrier user really wants, this is pretty similar to Zygarde just much less broken, but it still has a pretty negative impact on the metagame at large.

Well that's all. Let me know your guys thoughts on Spectrier! I feel this post has pretty bad timing considering there is a big Urshifu discussion point, however I feel Spectrier warrants a lot of discussion too since I feel its impact on the tier and healthiness also needs a lot of introspection. I hope you guys enjoyed!
 
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Honestly IMO, you could replace the words "FuturePort" with Spikes pre-Heavy-Duty Boots. All that matters is the switch-in is taking extra chip as it goes to take the hit which prevents it checking what it's meant to. It's a different means of accomplishing the same result.

What's the real issue here is the breakers themselves, because it doesn't matter whether Urshifu-S is backed by FuturePort or Spikes and Rocks, either way your Tapu Fini is no longer a check and you're looking at a risky switch or a sac.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Tapu Fini on a critical hit: 128-151 (37.3 - 44%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 2 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

We are in a world where Aegislash is UU. A reminder that Aegi 2HKOs pretty much the entire game with just CC/Shadow/Flash(or Iron Head) and has 3 checks or something which can all lose to whatever it's last move is or it can even fit priority. The thought of a Pokemon that good (even ignoring the defensive utility it beings) being neglected is honestly shocking to me. And let's not even go into Kyurem and Terrakion being RU, Blaziken seriously underperforming in the current metagame and Nasty Plot Expanding Force Zam and the still nutty Lele both being UU.

But when I look at the standards that are being set by OU's current crop of breakers, that all actually makes a crazy amount of sense. Why does no-one use Aegislash? It's basically Urshifu that can't pivot and has a weak speed tier. "Who are Blaziken and Hawlucha, and why do they need help to beat their checks?"-Spectrier. Let's not even get into Melmetal making sturdy physical Steel resists mandatory, Magearna's utterly absurd versatility, and Cinderace just U-turning on everything, because those are unironically balanced atm.

Oh and Pheromosa. Just try and name a consistent check to that thing. It's like Cinderace if Cinderace could fire off Ice moves, go fully physical or special, wasn't mandated Boots, snowballed off surprise coverage kills and was faster than Zeraora. Are you for real. Like I get each set has checks and U-turn means less coverage, but there's nothing that outspeeds it other than absurd Choice Scarfers and it can just U-turn to safety every time the opponent doesn't have priority or one of the aforementioned absurd scarfers. And it has the statline and coverage to abuse weakened checks. I'm not even taking into account the QD set here because that's another essay in of itself. That's like if Urshifu could Dragon Dance on the switch. You do lose a lot of the value offered by U-turn (again, similar to Urshifu) but the moment it gets a kill the game is already over.

So all that considered, somehow Slowbro is the problem here? I think not...
 
I do think that while futureport is good to talk about, considering banning either part of it (with no complex bans ofc) when we still have pheromosa and spectrier around is weird, to say the least. Not even talking in a "they should have been banned already" sense, but in the fact they seem to be way more important in the pyramid of "what could be a problem for ou" than teleport, future sight, the slowtwins etc.

I find spectrier the bigger problem right now, even more than urshifu and pheromosa, with the sub sets being probably the ones I find the worse overall. Not only by having to predict if the horse is running a choice item or sub, but also what its going to do behind that sub. Zneon laid down my thoughts pretty well already, so I don't want to repeat it all again. I don't know if i find urshifu and phero balanced, but I don't think they're as much of an issue as the horse rn.
 
Hey all, I hope you're all having a fantastic weekend! I have a couple of discussion points for you guys that I would like to bring to the table; I'll start with one for now to keep things simple. My first discussion point revolves around Urshifu-SS.



I've been doing a lot of laddering and experimentation lately, particularly focusing a lot on the infamous Futureport user Slowbro, as well as its best abusers. We are all fairly familiar with how this operates, and it's driven a lot of Pokemon from being radar threats to potentially banworthy. For a while, I thought that the enabler--Futureport--was the problem, as there are a myriad of natural answers in the tier to Pokemon such as Pheromosa and Melmetal that can get overwhelmed with the additional pressure provided by Slowbro's incredible facilitation of the move. However, after extensive playing using this technique more thoroughly, I realized that the technique itself can be stuffed relatively easily if Slowbro faces too much pressure in of itself, which it easily can due to how valuable it is as both a wall and a pivot. Its typing, while fairly good for checking Cinderace and Melmetal, is not the best defensively due to a notable weakness to Volt-Turn, the nearly omnipresent use of Knock Off in the tier, and yielding a troublesome weakness to Urshifu-SS and Pheromosa's other STAB options. Against any good offensive team, Futureport can crumble if used recklessly, and for that reason I think it can be more readily checked despite how strong of a strategy it can be on Balanced Offense and Bulky Offense teams. However, I still do not believe such things as Pheromosa or Melmetal are problematic factors in of themselves when it comes to Futureport facilitation; though, Urshifu-SS is a problem in my eyes, and I'd like to explain why.

Urshifu-SS has always been a fairly polarizing Pokemon offensively, with one of the most spammable STABs in the game in Wicked Blow and a brutal STAB CC to back it. For that reason, it is a prime candidate for Futureport abuse, and I believe that the answers to Urshifu are much more limited than the myriad of checks that can handle Pheromosa and Melmetal. Urshifu's brutal STAB combination and damage output in tandem with hazard support and Future Sight leaves it so its only real switch-ins are Fairy-types. Of the top Fairy-types, the only viable, consistent answers come in the form of Clefable and Tapu Fini. While both compress quite a bit on a team, they can more readily crumble to Futureport support, and Wishport Clefable faces severe difficulty handling it due to Unseen Fist bypassing its only way to remain healthy. Tapu Fini, unfortunately, can be easily overwhelmed with a combination of Stealth Rock chip --> Wicked Blow --> Future Sight --> Wicked Blow, making it unreliable against the strategy (especially if Tapu Fini is pressured dealing with other threats like Melmetal or Garchomp and is already chipped). Utility Clefable can sometimes face this problem as well, though to a slightly lesser extent thanks to Magic Guard to mitigate hazard chip. Poison Jab variants are run sometimes as well, which can completely throttle Clefable and Tapu Fini if it opts for coverage over Sucker Punch priority. Although, I find myself more pressed to run U-turn + Sucker Punch, as Urshifu can always phenomenally pair with any good Fairy-type buster like rising star Nidoking, this still forces a very dangerous guessing game with revenge killers versus bulky Fairy-types to check Urshifu, and especially with Futureport, this can be really overwhelming to play against as guessing correctly can still be mitigated with something as simple as Future Sight to back its onslaught. I find myself nearly obligated to run a Fairy-type simply to check Urshifu to some degree of consistency, but even this isn't too consistent in execution as Futureport can completely throttle the switch-in anyway.

This simply just addresses its Choice Band variant. In fact, I find its LO Bulk Up sets to be extremely strong HO staples, able to pair phenomenally well with dual dance Magearna to lay out severe pressure against most of the defensive tier. Magearna can use Urshifu's few switch-ins as fairly good setup fodder since it is very good at forcing such switch-ins. Having the freedom to switch up moves after a Bulk Up boost makes it even more terrifying, with the 50/50s created via its last moveslot being even more polarizing and sometimes even game defining.

I'm curious to hear what people think about Urshifu-SS in the tier, and if people think it is a main suspect as to Futureport's strength at the moment. I personally think it is, and although I think it alone isn't broken, it takes far too great advantage of team support in my eyes to be a consistently healthy component to the tier, if it is one at all. Even if it can be checked with things like Rocky Helmet or residual damage, I think its sheer wallbreaking ability especially with Futureport to cleave through nearly all of its checks is too much and opens up offensive wincons far too easily to be conceivably healthy in my eyes.
I think the thing that makes urshifu so problematic is that it is able to check the things that resist future sight better than any other futureport abuser. No type resists all 3 of dark fighting and psychic stabs. Pokemon that would be switched in to take a hit from future sight, like dark types or fat special walls such as blissey, just don't work against shifu. You could use a fairy type, but shifu can counter with iron head or poison jab. The only thing that can consistently check both shifu and future sight is mandibuzz, but mandi can't do much to hit it back.
 
Honestly IMO, you could replace the words "FuturePort" with Spikes pre-Heavy-Duty Boots. All that matters is the switch-in is taking extra chip as it goes to take the hit which prevents it checking what it's meant to. It's a different means of accomplishing the same result.

What's the real issue here is the breakers themselves, because it doesn't matter whether Urshifu-S is backed by FuturePort or Spikes and Rocks, either way your Tapu Fini is no longer a check and you're looking at a risky switch or a sac.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Tapu Fini on a critical hit: 128-151 (37.3 - 44%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 2 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
This is a bad take. First of all, hazards and their setters all have ample counterplay. Taunt, Magic Bounce, Rapid Spin, Defog, and of course, the classic, preventing hazards from going up. Future Sight is not the same. The main abusers in OU, are so bulky that it difficult to prevent them from getting of a FS. It can't be taunted, and wearing them down isn't an option due to Regenerator + Slack Off. So counterplay is extremely limited. You have to play perfectly in order to prevent Future Sight—if Slowbro gets in once for free, which isn't that hard, it's getting off a Future Sight.

Furthermore, Spikes and Rocks aren't attacks. They do a fixed amount of damage, which is important, because Future Sight is an attack. It's 120 Base Power, which is strong, and importantly, it's Psychic type. So Slowbro etc. gain STAB on it, and it hits things Supereffectively.
Even with multiple layers of Rocks and Spikes, there are still switchins to Urshifu-SS:
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 196+ Def Buzzwole on a critical hit: 96-113 (23 - 27%) -- 46.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 3 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery.
However, with Future Sight: 0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 428-506 (102.6 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The difference is clear: what is potentially the only true counter to Urshifu in the tier completely folds when faced with Future Sight. So no, it is not the same as hazards. It is literally being hit with 2 attacks in the same turn. In Doubles, everything runs Protect because being hit with two attacks hurts. However, Protect isn't good counterplay, because Future Sight breaks protection, AND you have to waste a valuable move slot. Against abusers other than Urshifu, you could bring something like Protect Mandibuzz, which you can probably see is awful.

There are definitely broken mons in OU right now, but this is not it.
 

Gomi

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SPECTRIER HATE?
Time for me to buckle down and make a post on my least favorite Pokémon in the current metagame by a mile
1606608858314.png

I hate this pokemon. I despise building for this Pokémon. I have tried several times to write well composed posts on how much I dislike this pokemon, but I cannot see this thing as anything but an extremely awful to build for, awkward to revenge kill, versatile monstrosity. Pheromosa is restrictive, yes, but Mosa does not make you give up slots or movesets on your team soley to beat it, while in the process making you worse vs. the metagame at large. THIS DOES, this absolutely does. Here's a few obvious examples
:ss/mandibuzz:
Has to give up U-turn or Foul Play for Knock off and needs toxic to not get overwhelmed by Hex+Nasty Plot before Spectrier essentially forces a trade at best, not to mention Taunt or Disable variations of spect.
:ss/blissey:
Running shadow ball and losing out on status, TP, or Rocks is so detrimental to role compression on Stall and Bliss' insane momentum on Balance. Sball bliss straight up loses to boosters with recovery as well, due to its lack of para to cheese or Toxic to whittle the target down. again, this isn't even bringing up Taunt/Disable variants.
1606609241656.png

I would never run this if not for Spectrier.

Now this is all swell, but being restrictive defensively is nothing new. At least Spectrier is relatively easy to revenge! right? oh right it gets Will-O-Wisp to cripple every physical attacker slower than it and is faster than all but like 3 pokemon with no choice item while having the possibility of Disable, Sub, and Taunt all looming over you as you try to take it out. great. And Mosa can't actually threaten Spectrier without Throat Chop so that might as well be 2.5 pokemon for how common that move is.

So its extremely varied, capable of bypassing its counterplay with set variation, and difficult to actually pin down with offensive counterplay. That's a lot of amazing traits already, surely it can't get any better! Well that's where you're wrong because the demon who designed this Pokémon decided that it needed to be able to SNOWBALL with a special moxie clone, meaning sacking to this monstrosity causes its own issues as that chipped Mandi it did 40% to at +2 now dies outright because you had to sack to bring it in. I'm not even done listing this mon's crazy number of upsides, because its absolutely incredible at forcing switches due to its combination of blistering speed, crippling Will o Wisps, threat of snowballing, amazing resists and immunities, and ability to surprise with Choiced sets if it hasn't taken prior damage.

So what are the downsides to this monstrosity? Well, there are a few. It needs some bulk investment to beat Mandibuzz (about 72-76 physdef I can't remember exactly), it can be awkward to fit all the moves it wants because while every set with Wisp will put in work no matter what, there are some that do more than others in certain MUs (cm for Sball bliss, taunt+sub for really locking down Mandi Balances, etc.), and sometimes it just lacks the raw power to force KOs without specs, especially if you opt for a hex variant. But honestly, all of this is minor compared to the immense strain it puts onto you as a Builder and you in battle. Certain playstyles that struggle to fit solid Ghost resists just fold outright without very good play (Rain most notably), and building without a Dark or Bliss pretty much guarantees you're gonna be matchup fishing given how hard Spectrier will turn you into dust without one.

Playing and building around this thing is a nightmare, as far as im concerned this is the most bannable Pokémon around. If you disagree that's cool but I truly cannot see this Pokémon as anything but unhealthy for a metagame that's already struggling to handle crazy offensive threats like Urshi, Magearna, and Mosa. I haven't even gotten into how pairings like Spectrier+Kartana are absolutely unmanageable because of how adept Spectrier is at forcing pressure onto your counterplay for other mons and just turning them into dust if they lack the proper move to deal with you or your offensive partner, but I don't feel like writing any more about how much I dislike this mon.
wall of text weeeeee
 
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PK Gaming

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I agree with the sentiment that Urshifu has always been the issue and focusing on FuturePort is a textbook example of treating the symptom rather than the cause.

FuturePort is undeniably cheesy, so I understand why people dislike it. But it's ultimately something we to accept, because I don't think there's a strong argument that can be made for banning that combination.
 
FuturePort is undeniably cheesy, so I understand why people dislike it. But it's ultimately something we to accept, because I don't think there's a strong argument that can be made for banning that combination.
There really isn't, but I'm unsure if that's even the real argument going around. Many times before, people have pointed out how it is Slowbro that is using the Future Sight/Teleport combo so, so effectively. It feels to me at least like this, not your post but the message you not alone have, is a deflection from the problem pokemon to the strategy it uses.
I utterly fucking despise stall, and wish it follow in Sodom's steps, but there is no possible way to meaningfully remove it within current structures, for it first and foremost is a playstyle, a combination of strategies, like HO, or BO, or fucking Trick Room. It isn't inherently broken, even if M-Sableye, once a staple of Stall, was. And I am not saying Slowbro is on Stall, because it is used to push Breakers above and beyond, and last I checked Stall didnt use Breakers.
Slowbro is the only relevant user of "FuturePort", meaning the two moves together make not a broken experience, but that it is Slowbro that is the keystone of this broke-ass bridge.
Another thing:
I agree with the sentiment that Urshifu has always been the issue and focusing on FuturePort is a textbook example of treating the symptom rather than the cause
I don't see how Urshifu, "has always been the issue." If anything, it is but one Breaker that bit the pie that is Slowbro. While it exceptionally works well, there are others that are assisted by Slowbro and its teleporting sight. If you prepare for the sight with a protect, you still have to contend with what your opponent brought in, because they may just have a set-up turn while you're protecting.
Getting a bit personal, but I feel as though that is constraining: having to build something in for future sight, else you face the consequences of a 120 BP psychic attack, coming from Slowbro, who brought something in because the opponent predicted your something-built.
 
If you struggle with spectrier just slap on a banded guts obstagoon. Switcheroo is very sauce against toxapex and it doesn't care about burn.
 
If you prepare for the sight with a protect,
I think Future sight hits after the turn ends, so it "goes through" (isn't affected by) protect.

If you struggle with spectrier just slap on a banded guts obstagoon. Switcheroo is very sauce against toxapex and it doesn't care about burn.
Most Obstagoon run Stabs or Stabs+CC, which means you only have one move to hit Spectrier which means you are beat by Sub Disable sets.
 

Monky25

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The way I see this whole issue we have several different options and outcomes we can take with this. They are..
1. We ban urshifu and futureport is not an issue
2. We ban urshifu and futureport still is an issue, so we ban the slowtwins and unban urshifu cause urshifu isnt broken without them
3. We test slowtwins from the beginning and ban them
4. We get rid of some things like pheromosa or spectrier which are also problems in the metagame, then see how it develops from there.

I personally like option 4, I'd rather deal with spectrier which mandates a ghost resist on every team plus it can get around them depending on its sets or pheromosa which is like DLC 1 cinderace but on crack. With the exception of pheromosa, if we have to ban more than just urshifu as the breakers than that means the slowtwins are the problem. I genuinely don't know whether futureport is even broken or not, but I'd like to take the option that involves the banning of the least amount of mons.
 
Obstagoon run Stabs or Stabs+CC, which means you only have one move to hit Spectrier which means you are beat by Sub Disable sets.
Go Scarf

252+ Atk Obstagoon Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 276-326 (80.9 - 95.6%)

If they click Sub it will fail after, if they click Disable you can finish them off with Struggle and they can't switch back in to rocks. If the click Wisp you get to rampage.

He's a really cool Scarfer actually with Knock Off, Close Combat, Gunk Shot and either Switcheroo or Parting Shot. You can justify Defiant or Guts depending on your needs, though with Spectrier around you probably want Guts.
 
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Katy

Banned deucer.
About :Pheromosa: and :Urshifu: (Single-Strike)

I think Pheromosa fits the same category like Urshifu-S in the Sentiment of Future-Port-Abusers.
Both, Pheromosa and Urshifu-S can be profiteers of the same strategy, Future-Port and Pheromosa is usually paired up with eitehr Slowbro, or Slowking, as Pheromosas only downside is being frail with having 71 / 37 / 37 Stats in the HP / Def / SpD, whereas Urshifu-S is definitely bulkier.
That is in my opinion the only difference between them, but they abuse Futre-Port both in the same way with Slowbro or Slowking as Teampartners.

In-Depth look into Pheromosa:
Pheromosa is a great Pokemon with a good offensive typing and astronomical Speed of 151, which means it outspeeds most Pokemon naturally already in the OU Metagame. It's variety of Sets allows Pheromosa to do the Wallbreaking and also Sweeping consistently and reliably.

The Sets:
Pheromosa @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Triple Axel
- Rapid Spin / Poison Jab / Drill Run

Pheromosa @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Shock Wave
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast​

Pheremosa was always a Pokemon in this generation, which ahs been viewed rather carefully, but I think with its supergreat Speed-Stat, its great offensive Tools, and the way it can (re)act just pushes it over the Edge. Like Choice Band-Pheromosa can just safely U-turn out of bad Matchups, while keeping up momentum for the rest of the team, Close Combat is just a very reliable and strong STAB of choice and hits most Pokemon pretty hard in the tier, if not it can claim OHKOes for itself. Triple Axel is a great coverage, which gives it the edge over Pokemon such as Landorus-Therian, Tornadus-Therian, Zapdos, and Mandibuzz, which can all check the CB-Set due to their typing, ability or bulky. Triple Axel hits every one of them pretty hard, and is able to claim even OHKOes. Rapid Spin or Poison Jab will round the set up extremely well, Rapdis Spin can support the rest of the team, whereas Poison Jab can lure in fairies such as Tapu Fini and Clefable. Drill Run is another choice to hit Toxapex, which otehrwise would wall this specific Pheromosa-Set.
The Quiver-Set is another great option, as it can just sweep after the opposing team is weakened, Shock Wave can claim versus Tapu Fini and Toxapex, Ice Beam versus various flying-types and Focus Blast is a high BP fighting-type STAB Pheromosa appreciates to have as with a bit of chip can just run through the rest of the tier, baring Ghost-Types.
What I think pushes Pheremosa is the recent exploration of the Quiver Dance-Set as this set can bypass many Pokemon in the tier after just 1 Quiver, and its ability in Beast Boost gives it on top of a Life Orb a Boost in its Special Attack-stat, which means Phereomosa can have the potential to snowball out rather easily, when its checks are weakened beforehand or when Pheromosa Sets another Quiver-Dance on a Recover, which Toxapex uses. The only downside I see in both sets is the fraility of Pheromosa, but it makes up for it with its offensive presence. I would view this Pokemon very closely in my opinion.

In-Depth Look into Urshifu-S:
Urshifu-S has been a controversial Pokemon even before the drop of Crown Tundra and stays controversial still, as it is yet another Pokemon, which can profit of the same way as Pheromosa does from Future-Port. Urshifu, while having not the stellar Speed-stat could be still a problematic Pokemon in its own right, as it has a good Attack-stat alongside a great ability in Unseen Fist. Unseen Fist can bypass Protect and Wicked Blow just can manage to hit everything hard as it has the trait to always Crit.

The Sets:
Urshifu @ Black Glasses / @ Life Orb
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Sucker Punch
- Close Combat
- Wicked Blow

Urshifu @ Choice Band / @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab / Iron Head
- U-turn​

The first set is extremely threatening on not only teams with Future-Port Support but also on Hyper Offense variants as it is able to set-up rather easily with a Bulk Up and forces mindgames with Sucker Punch. After a Bulk Up it is able to tear through most Pokemon in the metagame, baring Tapu Fini, as Tapu Fini offers the bulk to withstand this Set after a +1 due to Bulk Up. The Choice Band / Choice Scarf-Set are threatening as well, as they can forme an even better Core with Teleport / Volt Switch users, and this Pokemon can just U-turn out of bad Matchups as well, to bring an appropiate Partner in safely. Lastly, Urshifu can run Poison Jab / Iron Head on this Set to catch Tapu Fini especially after some Stealth-Rocks chip.
I think the most dangerous set currently is the Bulk Up Life orb-variant, as this can classify itself as a really potent Set on HO-Teams and with Teampartners such as Magearna, Cinderace, Garchomp, and other potent Setup-Sweepers like Kartana, Rillaboom, and Hawlucha alongside an entry hazard-setter such as Landorus-Therian and screen-setters like Regieleki, Tapu Koko, or Alola-Ninetales, it can be force and a dangerous Pokemon to face. Magearna and kartana can both get rid off the bad Matchups for Urshifu, whereas Urshifu can create mind games with Sucker Punch, which gives it some pseudo-speed, especially when it faces faster choice-locked Pokemon, it can just punish them. In my opinion, this Pokemon should be viewed as closely as Pheromosa.

These Pokemon might find overlapping counterplay in Tapu Fini, and to a lesser extent Toxapex, but I think the overlapping counterplay doesn't mean that these 2 Pokemon can be healthy in their own ways, and therefore I would view both of them very closely and how the metagame develops and reacts around them.

Thanks for reading everyone and have a g'day!​
 
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Go Scarf

252+ Atk Obstagoon Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 276-326 (80.9 - 95.6%)

If they click Sub it will fail after, if they click Disable you can finish them off with Struggle and they can't switch back in to rocks. If the click Wisp you get to rampage.

He's a really cool Scarfer actually with Knock Off, Close Combat, Gunk Shot and either Switcheroo or Parting Shot. You can justify Defiant or Guts depending on your needs, though with Spectrier around you probably want Guts.
If they sub on the switch you get disabled upon breaking the sub and are forced to struggle, Obstagoon is a poor counter because it cannot switch in and reliably win. Scarf can revenge kill, but so can a lot of better mons; that isn't the problem with handling Spectrier.
 
I think Future sight hits after the turn ends, so it "goes through" (isn't affected by) protect.


Most Obstagoon run Stabs or Stabs+CC, which means you only have one move to hit Spectrier which means you are beat by Sub Disable sets.
With the normal flame orb + guts Obstagoon set you can at least switcheroo on the first disable turn and then switch out and back in. I'm not sure if this actually lets the Obsta 1v1 the disable set, but they'll at least be very weakened after substituting multiple times and taking burn damage.
 

Perish Song

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I used Obstagoon myself with the following set and must say it works surprisingly decent for breaking stuff, although it still sees a lot of competition from other breakers. The reason why I used Obstagoon in this metagame, in particular, was that it maybe is the only Normal-type offensive Pokemon that gets stronger with status. This means it's an ideal answer to most Spectriers, barring the rare Sub Disable set which still cannot touch you and is forced to stall for long turns before you die to Burn damage. Moreover, it's immune to Future Sight so that's a bonus quality.

Obstagoon @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Switcheroo

This is the standard set that you can find on Smogdex, featuring Switcheroo over Obstruct/Protect. The moves are pretty self-explanatory, and to briefly talk about Switcheroo, can be pretty handy. After using Switcheroo, it is almost guaranteed that you will end up with an item that only boosts your potential even further. Some examples being Leftovers to negate Burn damage, and Boots to negate entry hazard damage. Giving Flame Orb to your opponent also allows Obstagoon to burn stuff that can be handy occasionally. Overall it's a great offensive Ghost immunity that can take advantage of certain Pokemon in the meta very well, and is worth experimenting with it.
 
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If they sub on the switch you get disabled upon breaking the sub and are forced to struggle, Obstagoon is a poor counter because it cannot switch in and reliably win. Scarf can revenge kill, but so can a lot of better mons; that isn't the problem with handling Spectrier.
Not great, but you could run Facade, Knock, CC, and another Dark Move (Use this first), so Knock doesn't get disabled. Then you run Life Orb and smack the horse. I mean, it's still probably broken, but this is something that reliably beats it.
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
I've written elsewhere about how I dislike Spectrier and I completely agree with what Gomi said in their post, so please don't take this as a defense of Spectrier in any way. I just wanted to point out that Lickilicky of all things is actually one of the best possible Spectrier answers. Now even mentioning a PU Pokemon like Lickilicky is a testament to how limiting Spectrier can be, and Lickilicky is largely outclassed by Blissey/Chansey in almost every way, but it does have a few unique advantages that I'd like to mention here. I also already wrote about Lickilicky in a SwSh OU Bazaar post, but I thought I would reiterate it here as well.


Lickilicky @ Leftovers
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic

Lickilicky has two unique things going for it over Blissey/Chansey: Oblivious and access to Knock Off. Oblivious prevents Lickilicky from getting Taunted, which can be important, as Taunt can invalidate Blissey/Chansey. Lickilicky can take on Pokemon like Taunt + Magma Storm Heatran (if the Heatran doesn't also have Toxic), Taunt Tapu Fini, and Taunt Tornadus-Therian, all of which are a pain for Blissey/Chansey. Knock Off is obviously fantastic and often makes Lickilicky more difficult to switch into than Blissey/Chansey. Now in regards to Spectrier, the combination of Knock Off, Oblivious, and a Normal typing should allow Lickilicky to beat any Spectrier set. If you Knock Off to break their sub, you should click Toxic the next turn, in case they Disable your Knock Off. Even if Lickilicky gets burned and it takes 2 Knock Offs to break a sub, it's not like Spectrier can threaten Lickilicky in return. Switching Spectrier out against Lickilicky can also put your opponent in an awkward position because you're likely spamming Knock Off. Protect helps Lickilicky beat Disable Spectrier sets as well because I guess that a set of Substitute, Will-O-Wisp, and Disable could theoretically be annoying, but I don't know if anyone runs that set anyway. While Lickilicky isn't nearly as good as Blissey/Chansey outside of the few niches I mentioned here, it does still have good bulk and offers nice utility in Wish, Knock Off, and Toxic, so it's not like it's completely deadweight aside from a few matchups. However, with all of that being said, Lickilicky is in PU for a reason and its susceptibility to status and less bulk overall just makes it less reliable and more support-dependent than Blissey/Chansey, so it's hard to justify using Lickilicky. Still, it does have some uses, and since one of them is dealing with the very annoying Spectrier, which has been a topic of conversation here, I thought that I would throw it out there - plus I just like this dopey pink guy.
 
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I used Obstagoon myself with the following set and must say it works surprisingly decent for breaking stuff, although it still sees a lot of competition from other breakers. The reason why I used Obstagoon in this metagame, in particular, was that it maybe is the only Normal-type offensive Pokemon that gets stronger with status. This means it's an ideal answer to most Spectriers, barring the rare Sub Disable set which still cannot touch you and is forced to stall for long turns before you die to Burn damage. Moreover, it's immune to Future Sight so that's a bonus quality.

Obstagoon @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Switcheroo

This is the standard set that you can find on Smogdex, featuring Switcheroo over Obstruct/Protect. The moves are pretty self-explanatory, and to briefly talk about Switcheroo, can be pretty handy. After using Switcheroo, it is almost guaranteed that you will end up with an item that only boosts your potential even further. Some examples being Leftovers to negate Burn damage, and Boots to negate entry hazard damage. Giving Flame Orb to your opponent also allows Obstagoon to burn stuff that can be handy occasionally. Overall it's a great offensive Ghost immunity that can take advantage of certain Pokemon in the meta very well, and is worth experimenting with it.
Ive been using Jolly on Flame Orb Goon since DLC2. It lets you outspeed max speed Nidoking, Excadrill, Landorus-T, Rotom-W/H, most Zapdos, adamant Urshifu, and lets you speed tie max speed Tapu Lele and Kyurem. You get 1hko's on all those except Lando, defensive Zapdos, and you barely miss 1hko's against Rotom's with HP investment unless its non-boots Rotom-W after rocks.
 
Even though against most sets Obstagoon is a pretty good answer, one set has potential to break through it: Specs. Obstagoon is cleanly 3HKOd by a Specs Mud Shot AKA Fake HP Ground, which is a common filler move so it can hit Heatran for massive damage. While this does not seem like big damage, and it kind of isn't, this can dissuade it from switching in again due to it's very poor longevity, especially if hazards are up and it's burned, because then it can be easily chipped down really fast and becomes more wary of coming in on another Mud Shot. The speed drop also does not do it any favors.


(Other possible filler moves on the Specs set like Uproar and Hyper Beam 2HKO and almost always OHKO respectively, but I didn't mention them for their obvious drawbacks. Hyper Beam does at least either outright kill it or at worst force a trade. Still, considering that Spectrier has almost nothing else to run someone might decide to use these just for specific situations.)
 
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If you want to turn Goon into a proper counter to Spectrier run Gunk shot over Facade on the standard set and you can use Gunk to break the Sub.



The Scarf counters everything but the Sub Disable set nicely, and only lose to that if it Subs on the switch in.
 

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