Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

So lately I've seen how a lot of people don't really use kyurem and kyurem is actually a great mon.
It has 5 main sets that i've seen on the ss ou ladder near the 1400-1900 areas
1. Sub Roost-
sub roost freeze dry earth power is a great set which counters common threats like heatran pex offesnive mag and most of rain while having quite abit of longivity with the new HEAVY DUTY BOOTS and Roost. the pressure ability is also very helpful.
2.Specs-
although this is kyurems best set [imo] not most of sets run this and even the ppl who use it imo use the ]wrong sets [imo] The best set according to me IS Freeze Dry Ice Beam Focus Blast and Earth Power
most specs kyurem run draco which isnt rly important for it [again only imo] while freeze dry hits water types ice beam is a more POWERFUL move when waters are gone or weakened .
Earth power can hit heatran magearna ttar the newly amazing ou mon slowking witch galar and melmetal when u cant risk a miss.
Focus Blast is there to ohko ttar 2hko blissey ohko heatran 2hko av melm with focus blast into earth power on the next switch
A LOT OF CALCS
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 32 HP / 224 SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 306-360 (73 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 332-392 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 416-492 (102.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 316-374 (81.8 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 476-564 (123.3 - 146.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 262-310 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 195-229 (48.7 - 57.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

3.Scarf- scarf kyurem is a great revenge killer with a speed of something like 475 idk and a great base special attack its quite a good scarfer on rain weak teams with freeze dry ice beam draco and focus blast.
4.Sub Roost v2- thiz was one of the most spammed dlc1 sets with freeze dry as its special move and icicle spear to kill physically weak mons. This was a pp staller set.
5.DD Kyurem- this is the worst set kyurem uses imo but it works on quite a few teams from what ive heard. This is a pp stalling offensive Kyurem that uses sub roost dd icicle spear.
Thank you for looking at this post and I hope ive done unova icy boi justice. Feel free to pm me for any questions. SAM OUT ! PS: Ttar is tyranitar and imo=in my opinion
Very well, put together, and very polite about it as well. I'm a total noob to competitive pokemon, (a month of experience!) But imo, what kyurem lacks in typing, he makes up for in stats. With ice/dragon, he'll often end up hitting a wall with fini or heatran. Like u said, u can invest in unique moves to counter, but then that takes away STAB, and probably means I won't use a choice item. Imo ;), he's a great choice sweeper, but needs to have his counters taken out before murdering the other team.
 
Bulky, physically defensive Volcarona counters all Pheromosa sets. And before anyone calls it a meme- it walls Rillaboom, Kartana, Melmetal, Buzzwole, Scizor, and completely overpowers Magearna. It’s also a threat to sweep. I know people are lazy with the builder and will ban the fly anyway, but a hard counter does exist.

Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 240 HP / 228 Def / 40 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Bug Buzz
- Quiver Dance
- Roost
Ngl I hate this set, it's literally insane. Here's a great counter though. The strat here is surprise, get them to loop a rather useless move when used in succession. (Terrain, stat boosts, and guarda like reflect/light screen, etc.) So many players open up with a stat boost or a stealth rocks that you can catch players off guard and get a good sweep.

Hawlucha @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Encore
- Mean Look
- Dual Wingbeat
- Bulk Up

A couple Achilles's.....
-outspeed= instant death
-garbage stats. Any choice user is death
- unaware is really good block for his sweeps

Overall, sacrificing one team team member to act as a counter and possible sweeper is well worth it, imo.additionaly, he's still useful outside of that scenario between bulk up, his berry, and double wing, which easily breaks walls like blissey. Ty for reading, and any other good counters to stat boosters (other than clefable! ;) Would be really appreciated
 
Very well, put together, and very polite about it as well. I'm a total noob to competitive pokemon, (a month of experience!) But imo, what kyurem lacks in typing, he makes up for in stats. With ice/dragon, he'll often end up hitting a wall with fini or heatran. Like u said, u can invest in unique moves to counter, but then that takes away STAB, and probably means I won't use a choice item. Imo ;), he's a great choice sweeper, but needs to have his counters taken out before murdering the other team.
Specs Kyurem is a breaker, as opposed to a sweeper. Its role is to break down the opposing defensive core for an actual sweeper. All it takes is a couple of accurate predictions to do heavy damage thanks to Freeze Dry+Earth Power's limited switch-ins. I agree with the post above, Kyurem is an absurdly good mon in general, it's just held back by that Rocks weakness and the fact it can't do everything at once. It also suffers a fair bit due to the popularity of absurdly powerful mons like Urshifu-S, the under-suspect Mosa, and Magearna, all of which are breakers with fewer switch-ins.
Ngl I hate this set, it's literally insane. Here's a great counter though. The strat here is surprise, get them to loop a rather useless move when used in succession. (Terrain, stat boosts, and guarda like reflect/light screen, etc.) So many players open up with a stat boost or a stealth rocks that you can catch players off guard and get a good sweep.

Hawlucha @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Encore
- Mean Look
- Dual Wingbeat
- Bulk Up

A couple Achilles's.....
-outspeed= instant death
-garbage stats. Any choice user is death
- unaware is really good block for his sweeps

Overall, sacrificing one team team member to act as a counter and possible sweeper is well worth it, imo.additionaly, he's still useful outside of that scenario between bulk up, his berry, and double wing, which easily breaks walls like blissey. Ty for reading, and any other good counters to stat boosters (other than clefable! ;) Would be really appreciated
Hawlucha is a particular type of sweeper-a cleaner. As the name suggests, a cleaner is most useful as a win condition at the end of the game, when Lucha's counterplay has been weakened by other sweepers or breakers. Hawlucha's main strength is Unburden, which makes it unkillable by revenge killers without them having to take a hit first, and means it doesn't have to fully invest in speed and can run bulk instead. A set like the following works best:
Hawlucha @ Grassy/Electric Seed/Power Herb
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Def / 44 SpD / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat/High Jump Kick
- Acrobatics
- Stone Edge/Sky Attack
Credit Gomi for the spread, lives Rain Barreskewda's STAB after Seed. Power Herb+Sky Attack is a secondary option in case you aren't running Rillaboom or a Tapu for some reason, though you miss out on coverage. So the answer to your question of "how do you deal with Unaware users", the answer is "don't lead Hawlucha!" I'm sure your set catches a couple of people off guard, but that's about all it can do, and any sturdy Flying resist eats it alive (not to mention the prospect of a suicide lead going boom of dropping a Memento on your would-be sweeper).
Hope this was helpful to you!
 
Very well, put together, and very polite about it as well. I'm a total noob to competitive pokemon, (a month of experience!) But imo, what kyurem lacks in typing, he makes up for in stats. With ice/dragon, he'll often end up hitting a wall with fini or heatran. Like u said, u can invest in unique moves to counter, but then that takes away STAB, and probably means I won't use a choice item. Imo ;), he's a great choice sweeper, but needs to have his counters taken out before murdering the other team.
It rly doesnt have any counters that are rly unbreakable [again say it with me IMO] although blissey is uh problematic with chip you can prolly 2hko and av slowking-witch galar is truly quite a problem . I've learnt that kyurem [specs] needs some spin/defog support as it usually gets a kill whenever in and as theotherguytm stated specs kyurem is a breaker
Specs Kyurem is a breaker, as opposed to a sweeper. Its role is to break down the opposing defensive core for an actual sweeper. All it takes is a couple of accurate predictions to do heavy damage thanks to Freeze Dry+Earth Power's limited switch-ins. I agree with the post above, Kyurem is an absurdly good mon in general, it's just held back by that Rocks weakness and the fact it can't do everything at once. It also suffers a fair bit due to the popularity of absurdly powerful mons like Urshifu-S, the under-suspect Mosa, and Magearna, all of which are breakers with fewer switch-ins.
although the sub roosts sets are pgood I haven't used normal kyurem with something like just hdb stabs and stuff as you stated. I may try it later but I would still say specs kyurem>others. SAM OUT
 
Ngl I hate this set, it's literally insane. Here's a great counter though. The strat here is surprise, get them to loop a rather useless move when used in succession. (Terrain, stat boosts, and guarda like reflect/light screen, etc.) So many players open up with a stat boost or a stealth rocks that you can catch players off guard and get a good sweep.

Hawlucha @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Encore
- Mean Look
- Dual Wingbeat
- Bulk Up

A couple Achilles's.....
-outspeed= instant death
-garbage stats. Any choice user is death
- unaware is really good block for his sweeps

Overall, sacrificing one team team member to act as a counter and possible sweeper is well worth it, imo.additionaly, he's still useful outside of that scenario between bulk up, his berry, and double wing, which easily breaks walls like blissey. Ty for reading, and any other good counters to stat boosters (other than clefable! ;) Would be really appreciated
This set was all over Youtube but it's not consistent on a game-to-game basis, especially because people like to lead off with their Lando or Pheromosa and click U-turn turn 1.

Edit: Although I have heard it's really fun so if you want some funny clips just lead with this turn 1 on an alt account lol

Edit 2: For the question at the bottom use Ditto. Ditto makes your HO and Stall matchup a lot better because with Ditto there are very few pokemon that can sweep you without getting stuffed at one kill.
 
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Awesome, thanks for all of the help you guys! I think I want to use ditto as a great counter, but is a choice item worth sacrificing move versatility if you don't know what moved you'll get? Any specific items that work well for you guys?
 
Awesome, thanks for all of the help you guys! I think I want to use ditto as a great counter, but is a choice item worth sacrificing move versatility if you don't know what moved you'll get? Any specific items that work well for you guys?
It will always use Scarf to revenge kill set up mons on offense. Against stall it’ll normally be used to switch into regen and self recovery mons to stall them out and if lucky enough they’ll knock off the scarf and you’ll usually just win outside of specific game scenarios. If Ditto isnt scarf chances are you’re better off using another mon.
 

Perish Song

Rampage
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After spending the entire day going mental and questioning whether laddering for reqs is a good idea or not, I eventually managed to meet the requirements for the suspect test. Normally I don't mind laddering but this particular state of the metagame was truly chaotic for me to adapt, and there are a few mentions I'd like to talk about.

Rain

To start off, the most fun I had on the ladder was with utilizing Zapdos in rain teams. What encouraged me was running into one myself with a standard balance (stuff like Clefable, Toxapex, etc.) The situation I found myself in was not very welcoming for my team, because as long as the rain was up, I had no reliable switchins to Zapdos. Seeing how I struggled to keep the momentum up for myself, it wasn't difficult for the opposing team to keep rain up anyway so whenever I used some sort of balance structure without Blissey, I always lost to Zapdos.
Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Static
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Weather Ball
- Hurricane
- Thunder
- Roost
This is the most common and efficient Zapdos set to use in Rain teams. Both your STABs are ridiculous, and Ground-types such as Excadrill really fear getting hit by Water-type Weather Ball. Overall if your opponent does not have any ways of blocking the weather, Zapdos is a super good Pokemon to constantly generate offensive pressure.

Sand

Next up I want to talk about sand cores, especially the impact of Dracozolt. The reason what got me into testing Dracozolt was similar to Zapdos, many teams I made were criminally weak to Dracozolt under the Sandstorm. Thus I threw a team together and started laddering with it. I had a similar experience to what I experienced while facing it, there aren't many teams out there that like facing Dracozolt, especially if the sand setter is using Smooth Rock. It was easy to lure the Ground-types in because unboosted Life Orb Draco Meteor still hits like an actual truck and they can only switch into you once or twice, turning the game into an effective coinflip. You either sack something to Bolt Beak or go to your Ground-type to eat a Draco Meteor. This is Craing's core from his sand team, everything is pretty standard. You set sand up with Tyranitar, let Dracozolt and Excadrill do the work.
Tyranitar @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast
- Ice Beam
- Toxic

Excadrill @ Air Balloon
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin

Dracozolt @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 176 Atk / 108 SpA / 224 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake

Poisons

Moving on, I need to talk about two Poison-type Pokemon in Galarian Slowking and Nidoking. To talk about Galarian Slowbro briefly, this thing is perhaps what annoyed me most, similarly to Dracozolt the team I used was seriously weak to Galarian Slowking. The difference with its counterpart is having 10 more SpAtk, which allows it to fire slightly stronger Future Sights, also being Poison-type and learning good coverage such as Flamethrower makes it a decent answer to Clefable and Ferrothorn. I was using a balanced team for most of my run and every game I genuinely struggled had a Galarian Slowking in it, constantly applying pressure by abusing my defensive core. This Pokemon is seriously good, everyone should give it a test.
As for Nidoking, its coverage is enough to break the entire tier and nothing is safe. Still, I was able to develop a counterplay against it by tricking a Choice Scarf to it, so it became very easy to play around with the amount of Protects I ran in the team.

Other Broken Stuff

After this Pheromosa suspect is concluded, I believe we have 2 candidates that are worth looking into; Magearna and Spectrier. Spectrier forces you to run a dedicated check for it, and even when you do, you are unfortunately not safe. Unless you are running a dedicated Ghost-resist in your team or Blissey, it can be very difficult to beat a Spectrier, and it is often costly. During my run I had a Spectrier spreading burn on my entire team before I was able to lower its HP to half, then for whatever reason, he stayed in Toxapex's knock and died when it was in a clear winning position. As for Magearna, Magearna still does Magearna things from DLC1, Scarf/Specs Trick sets are still very common along with Double Dance sets with either Shift Gear or Iron Defense. With Screens support, it is very difficult to wear down and is often problematic and it has excellent bulk with godlike typing, so it could be worth looking into it. I started using Celesteela as measurement against Magearna ( Still takes shitload from Specs Volt Switch), and I must say it is working quite well with the amount of chip Leech Seed + Flamethrower provides while also being super durable against Draining Kiss.

Pheromosa

Lastly, I wanna briefly talk about the Pokemon being suspected. While I was able to play around any physical without any trouble ( Helmet Pex bodies any physical variant), I had severe problems against Quiver Dance Pheromosa. QD Pheromosa is often coming with screen support from either Tapu Koko or Grimmsnarl, this allows Pheromosa to actually take advantage of weak-hitting stuff such as Toxapex and turn into a monster pretty easily. I first laughed at Shock Wave Pheromosa until it OHKOed my Pex at +1, then I lost the game painfully. While there are enough checks for its Physical sets, I believe Quiver Dance and good coverage ( Literally BoltBeam but its enough) pushes Pheromosa over the edge therefore I'll be voting ban on it.
 
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Here's a Pokemon I've been experimenting with on Rain:



I was looking for some sort of offensive pivot to Spectrier that prevents it from mindlessly spamming its Ghost-type STABs, and I came up with Heliolisk. Much like the aforementioned Toxicroak, Heliolisk is also a Dry Skin Pokemon, giving it a Water-immunity (good for opposing Rain, especially Pelipper) and good passive recovery under Rain, allowing it to find more opportunities to come in on Spectrier and actually nullify Will-o-Wisp damage to a degree. Granted, it has to watch for Mud Shot and the less-impressive Dark Pulse, but having a Pokemon on your Rain team that makes the opposing Spectrier user think twice about clicking Shadow Ball/Hex is really nice, imo. Still toying around with the set, but I'm currently running a Life Orb 4 Attacks set with Thunder/Volt Switch/Grass Knot/Surf. I know it gets Weather Ball, but I like Surf more as it gives Heliolisk something to use vs Excadrill outside of Rain. Dry Skin is also really nice to mitigate LO recoil. In short, it's a very niche Pokemon and I don't really see it being used outside of Rain, but it does what I need it to do for my rain squad and I'm proud of the little reptile.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1239627104-n62l56ettu038eu5uy8muoni9jalp13pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1239641840-rf50t9pghu9wyl74nl0m7xpxgoaqi56pw

The games themselves aren't super great (I gambled a lot vs Excadrill in the beginning of g1 lmao), but it at the very least shows what Heliolisk does against Spectrier.
 
Okay, I've been fairly inactive on this thread for a bit, but that doesn't mean that I've been inactive on the ladder! On that note, I want to talk about another interesting Pokemon that I like to use!
1607433314120.png

Kartana @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Smart Strike / Aerial Ace
- Knock Off / Aerial Ace
In my opinion, Choice Scarf Kartana has more than a small niche in the metagame. Firstly, base 109 speed is quite high even for a non-scarfed user, and reaches ridiculously high levels with a scarf. Due to this, Kartana is able to revenge kill some top metagame threats, such as Pheromosa, Urshifu, Spectrier, and Dragapult. Kartana can also take advantage of common defensive Pokemon, including Tapu Fini, Clefable, and Swampert. And let's not forget that Kartana’s got plenty of firepower thanks to its ungodly base 181 attack stat, which reaches 507 with an Adamant nature, which Kartana can actually afford to run thanks to its speed tier when scarfed. Of course, Jolly can be run if you would like to outspeed some more threats (mostly other scarfers), but I usually run Adamant. Aerial Ace can be run almost entirely to take out Buzzwole if you like.

One of the best things about Kartana, though, is that it forces progress because of Knock Off. Knock Off weakens some of its best switchins and cripples its best answer, Moltres. Most other Pokemon also dislikes getting knocked. Magearna, for example, hates getting knocked off, no matter which set it is, and Toxapex really wants to keep its Black Sludge (though it does have Regenerator and Recover. Damn, Toxapex is annoying). On top of that, sometimes teams have to allow Kartana to take out a rather large chunk off another Pokemon, which is also progress. Kartana also possesses a useful Grass/Steel typing, which allows it to block moves like Toxic and Leech Seed (two of my least favorite moves in the game). Kartana also has a good matchup against rain and sand, as well as hyper offense, giving it a good place in the metagame. Finally, thanks to its speed and Beast Boost, Kartana can be a great late-game cleaner, and oftentimes the opponent cannot let Kartana get a single kill if they don’t want Beast Boost mowing them over. I've had quite a few sweeps with this despite being locked into a move.

As always, Kartana does have weaknesses. It needs team support to deal with its checks, it falls just shy of some OHKOes and 2HKOes, and it have absolutely horrendous special bulk. And I bet that’s not all. However, all things considered, Choice Scarf Kartana is a good Pokemon and it have a great place in this metagame.

And yes, LO SD Kartana and CB Kartana both exist, and I've heard that the LO SD variant is quite good. However, I haven't used either of them, so this post was solely for Choice Scarf Kartana.

As always, I might be wrong about some things. Feel free to point them out! Until next time!

(and I think my next post will be about Kyurem. I guess we'll find out)
 
Bulky, physically defensive Volcarona counters all Pheromosa sets. And before anyone calls it a meme- it walls Rillaboom, Kartana, Melmetal, Buzzwole, Scizor, and completely overpowers Magearna. It’s also a threat to sweep. I know people are lazy with the builder and will ban the fly anyway, but a hard counter does exist.
Aren't there multiple Uber Pokemon that will lose against hand-picked OU (or sub-OU in this case) Pokemon? I think the issue is rarely "no Pokemon can possibly check this Pokemon reliably", but that few enough do that it becomes over-centralizing for the tier.

Pikalytics has Volcarona at 0.91% usage in OU (1825+) and Seismitoad is at 1.76%. They could both shoot up as hard-checks to Uber or potentially-Uber Pokemon, but that doesn't exactly mean that whatever they're checking isn't deserving of a ban.
 
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Aren't there a bunch of Uber Pokemon that will lose 1v1 against hand-picked OU (or sub-OU in this case) Pokemon? I think the issue is rarely "no Pokemon can possibly check this Pokemon reliably", but that few enough do that it becomes over-centralizing for the tier.

Volcarona is currently at 0.91% usage in OU (1825+) and Seismitoad is at 1.76%. They could both shoot up as hard-checks to Uber or potentially-Uber Pokemon, but that doesn't exactly mean that whatever they're checking isn't deserving of a ban.
I’m not gonna be able to convince people that ‘Moss isn’t Uber because it’s clear a lot of people have their minds made up. I think in general people have become lazy with the builder because there’s always the next suspect test on the horizon.

The point of that particular post was a response to sensationalizing that Mosa is just too hard to deal with and has zero counterplay. The hard counter I offered is hardly a meme nor is it an RU piece of garbage but people would rather just complain and ban it.

I may be in the minority but I think ‘Mosa is the least broken out of the ghost horse, metal man and two bunnies (the fire one and the robot one). It’s easily revenge killed by any priority, weather / terrain sweepers, scarf and Eleki. The CB set is walled by Clef / Pex and whored out by Moltres and Zapdos to some extent who can burn or para on the switch. QD is the better set but has to rely on focus blasts shit accuracy which is horrible for a mom that can’t take a single hit at all. It also can’t just come in or set up on much of anything because it’s so damn frail. Its limited to revenge kills. I just don’t think this mon is banworthy nor do I feel at a disadvantage playing against it. Maybe for more passive / defensive teams it can be more oppressive but this gens meta game since DLCs has been trending more aggressive and players can at least try to adapt to that.
 
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I genuinely do not get how anyone makes it up to the required. Its absurd the amount of stall and slow, bulky shitfests that are festering in 1000 to 1200. And NO MATTER WHAT, it is near-impossible to break ANY of them due to their bulk. Fucking Pheromosa, the supposed broke ass bitch, cant pile their bunker without folding like kartana. How the shit does anyone make it up to the required 80 Gex
 
I’m not gonna be able to convince people that ‘Moss isn’t Uber because it’s clear a lot of people have their minds made up. I think in general people have become lazy with the builder because there’s always the next suspect test on the horizon.

The point of that particular post was a response to sensationalizing that Mosa is just too hard to deal with and has zero counterplay. The hard counter I offered is hardly a meme nor is it an RU piece of garbage but people would rather just complain and ban it.

I may be in the minority but I think ‘Mosa is the least broken out of the ghost horse, metal man and two bunnies (the fire one and the robot one). It’s easily revenge killed by any priority, weather / terrain sweepers, scarf and Eleki. The CB set is walled by Clef / Pex and whored out by Moltres and Zapdos to some extent who can burn or para on the switch. QD is the better set but has to rely on focus blasts shit accuracy which is horrible for a mom that can’t take a single hit at all. It also can’t just come in or set up on much of anything because it’s so damn frail. Its limited to revenge kills. I just don’t think this mon is banworthy nor do I feel at a disadvantage playing against it. Maybe for more passive / defensive teams it can be more oppressive but this gens meta game since DLCs has been trending more aggressive and players can at least try to adapt to that.
Yeah I agree, I'll be voting no ban as well. I do think there's a pervasive laziness and hyperbole that just grows and grows during the leadup to a test of a mon. I came into it thinking I was gonna vote ban because I have complained about Mosa but ultimately I am now a fan and like how fun it is to build with. I enjoy clicking those crunchy close combats :psysly:
 

Finchinator

You’re so golden
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I genuinely do not get how anyone makes it up to the required. Its absurd the amount of stall and slow, bulky shitfests that are festering in 1000 to 1200. And NO MATTER WHAT, it is near-impossible to break ANY of them due to their bulk. Fucking Pheromosa, the supposed broke ass bitch, cant pile their bunker without folding like kartana. How the shit does anyone make it up to the required 80 Gex
I made it up to 1200 without losing in ~15 minutes and only faced offensive teams. Same goes for just about everyone who got reqs thus far. I reckon your complaints are misguided and perhaps impacted by a narrow perspective, but it is very hard for newer players to break the mold initially and it is likely not your fault whatsoever. I’d love to get a better idea of what your issues are and understanding is without derailing the thread; could you should me a PM with some replays or the team you have been using? I would be glad to help and hear your opinion out. This simply is not the right place for discussion of the suspect or ladder frustrations.
 

bb skarm

the new me is just gone take some getting used to
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I genuinely do not get how anyone makes it up to the required. Its absurd the amount of stall and slow, bulky shitfests that are festering in 1000 to 1200. And NO MATTER WHAT, it is near-impossible to break ANY of them due to their bulk. Fucking Pheromosa, the supposed broke ass bitch, cant pile their bunker without folding like kartana. How the shit does anyone make it up to the required 80 Gex
If you're struggling against bulkier teams, use Nidoking and Rillaboom (banded or Swords Dance). Nidoking demolishes those ClefPex cores that frustrate everybody as well as so many common bulky mons like Moltres Zapdos Heatran Ferro etc. while Rillaboom wrecks just about everything else because Nidoking eliminates three of its biggest checks in the aforementioned birds and Heatran. Stallier teams with Skarmory and Quag also get crushed by this core. Those two also wipe out a lot of common sweepers checks and break the opposing team down a ton which can open the door for mons who want to set up i.e. Volcarona

Trying using Pheromosa as an offensive pivot rather than trying to outright crush teams with it from the get go (if you're using Quiver Dance, try to force a switch to set a QD up). STAB U-turn coming of its attack stat is one of the greatest tools you have to pressure other teams and put the momentum of the game in your favor. Grabbing some momentum early and getting in breakers to give them chances to wear down the opposing team can clear the way for Pheromosa itself to finish the opposing weakened team off and wrap the game up.
 
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I genuinely do not get how anyone makes it up to the required. Its absurd the amount of stall and slow, bulky shitfests that are festering in 1000 to 1200. And NO MATTER WHAT, it is near-impossible to break ANY of them due to their bulk. Fucking Pheromosa, the supposed broke ass bitch, cant pile their bunker without folding like kartana. How the shit does anyone make it up to the required 80 Gex
fuckyoupex.jpg

another pro tip is to play extremely late at night (US Eastern Time Zone), stall peaks around dinner time in my experience (stall players get tucked in around 8pm jk but not really). You should try running FuturePort + fighting type because it's really effective at messing up fat cores. all the bros and kings don't really give a shit about Toxapex and can actually use it to start momentum generating plays, which is basically unheard of against Pex.
 
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Thundurus-T

Yo guys, it's me. I haven't made a post here in a hot minute so I want to go over something, Rain. I am not exploring the whole archetype because a lot of posts have done that already, however after using rain for quite a bit, I want to talk about Thundurus-T. I really like this Pokemon on rain and its a huge threat depending on the moveset, which I have been experimenting with by playing a lot of games with it. In my eyes, Thunder / Weather Ball / Focus Blast are the moves that should always be used on Thundurus-T because it hits everything you really want to. Thunder 2HKos almost everything neutrally, Weather Ball bops the Grounds and Focus Blast hits 2 very important targets in Tyranitar and Ferrothorn, which can be hit nuisances to rain teams. However the last move can be different, and in this post I want to go over the moves you can use on the 4th move slot.

Nasty Plot

This is pretty self-explanatory. Nasty Plot in rain, combined with Thunder turns Thundurus-T into an absolute unwallable nuke, and its truly insane how hard it hits. Its base 101 Speed tier is pretty great and being able to outspeed base 100s is a very important and useful attribute to Thundurus-T's favour. Thunder at +2 can OHKO almost every single Pokemon in the tier, and even resists are capable of being 2HKOd by Thunder, the sturdier Electric resists and electric immunes that don't get bopped by Thunder get beat by either Focus Blast or Weather Ball. The main problem I would say would the fact that its still outsped by Latios, Cinderace, Garchomp, Dragapult etc. However, getting into the next move.

Agility

I've been experimenting with this quite a bit too and it works pretty well in my eyes. It can now afford to run Modest to make its attacks pack more of a punch and instead of acting as a unwallable breaker under rain, it can act as a cleaner under rain since it still hits ludicrously hard and the still performs as a genuine offensive threat against almost any team under rain due to how effective the first 3 moves are on it are, which is why I rate those so highly on Thundurus-T, they not only hit everything you want to but allows it to free up the last move, and Agility is a big part of that in my eyes since you can forgo Nasty Plot for Agility or Agility for Nasty Plot depending on the rain team. So yeah, I like agility quite a bit and does a lot in the potency on Thundurus-T under rain.

Substitute

Someone mentioned this in the OU discord and I was curious, so I used it a bit. Honestly its quite decent, its not amazing though as its situational depending mid-game and late-game since it doesn't really get that many opportunities to get up a Substitute since it is pretty frail still. However once it does get that Substitute up it can be a huge threat. Substitute allows Thundurus-T to ease prediction and it firing off its powerful attacks becomes less risky. I feel Substitute is less rewarding than Agility or Nasty Plot but its really because of the payoff that those 2 give, however I still feel Substitute while worse than both Agility and Nasty Plot to be a pretty viable option of Thundurus-T on rain teams and I feel should see some more experimentation.

===

So yeah that's all. Thundurus-T is a pretty cool rain option and I love how rewarding it can feel sometimes despite it not being that easy to fit onto rain compared to stuff like Tornadus-T, Urshifu-RS and Kingdra, however its super powerful on rain nonetheless and I encourage more people to use it. I hope you guys enjoyed this post! :blobthumbsup:
 
I can't believe I'm actually making this post wtf
So with the relatively recent ban of Zygarde, I've been looking at other 'mons to fill the hole in my heart (and my teambuilder) for Ground types that can circumvent the rise of the Birdemic. Alas, I find myself back at my roots, for no matter how much things change, some things never do.

Obviously, Zydog is not the OU threat that his counterpart is. While the OG can run multiple threatening sets, with DD, Coil, and Glare all being prevalent and threatening options available, Zydog really only has a single viable set, being Choice Band. With that said, what makes me consider Zydog to have a niche amongst more established Ground types such as Nidoking, Landorus-T, Excadrill, or even Mamoswine? Well, I'd be lying if I said it's not Thousand Arrows. The prescense of HDB on bulky birds is, in my opinion, what holds a lot of Ground types back. The reason Nidoking has become an OU staple all of a sudden, in my opinion, is the fact that it can still beat said birds. However, Zydog doesn't get that same respect. Let's do the math on Zydog before breaking down why I think it holds a candle to the other options.
The prescense of HDB on bulky birds is, in my opinion, what holds a lot of Ground types back. The reason Nidoking has become an OU staple all of a sudden, in my opinion, is the fact that it can still beat said birds. However, Zydog doesn't get that same respect.

Moltres before Smacked Down: 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Moltres: 156-184 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Moltres after Smacked Down: 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Moltres: 312-368 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Zapdos before Smacked Down: 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 147-174 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Zapdos after Smacked Down: 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 294-348 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Corviknight before Smacked Down: 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Corviknight: 141-166 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- 74.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Corviknight after Smacked Down: 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Corviknight: 282-332 (70.5 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You get the idea, none of these birds can switch into Thousand Arrows and take the following hit. The exception to this rule in OU currently is Mandibuzz, who's usage has skyrocketed as a response to Spectrier. While I could make the bold claim that with a Spectrier ban, that number will dip, I'd like to instead just present that Zydog can still do hefty damage if Mandibuzz gets chipped, or even status it since the fourth move slot is limited to Glare or Toxic.

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 138-163 (32.6 - 38.5%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Outrage vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 184-217 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO

So, now that I've shown it has the damage numbers to do the job we need, we reach the meat and potatoes of the argument. Why exactly would you run Zydog over any of the other Grounds, and should you? Reason 1, it's fast as fuck boi. Zydog is naturally faster than every other Ground type in the meta atm, and while it loses out on the raw damage they possess, a Choice Band really helps mitigate that lost power. On top of that, you get the obvious benefit of not having 'mons switch into your Ground STAB for free (disregarding Buzzwole, of course). Reason 2, Extreme Speed. None of these Ground types have priority, which means that unless they run a Scarf, they lose out to a lot of the fast bullshit in the tier. While Zydog resides in the same boat, losing out on speed to things like Koko, Cinderace, and Pheromosa, it has the ability to still hit them all before taking damage itself, making it a solid revenge killer and potential late game cleaner.
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 125-148 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 138-163 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 233-275 (82.3 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now, with that said, there's obviously still counters. Buzzwole is a prime example, as something who didn't give a fuck about the better version in OU, Slowbro and Clefable frankly doesn't give a damn about it unless Glare really pulls some funky stuff, Spectrier not only outspeeds, but outright kills the Dog on Specs sets, and the aforementioned Mandibuzz can't be 2HKO'd without some prior chip. That said, I think there's certainly a niche for this 'mon, especially so long as you pair it with a strong defensive pivot backbone and fellow breakers like Urshifu, Spectrier, and Rillaboom.
 
I've been using two sets recently that can really take advantage of and break the type of balance teams being used on top ladder/smogon tour:

1607474899606.png

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Brave Bird
- Roost

The first of these two sets is sub bulk up Corviknight. This is a set that was used a bit in DLC1 but as a whole Corviknight was generally favored as a defogger. While in DLC2, I still think defog corvi is good as it checks a plethora of mons like Landot, Tapu Lele, and Hydreigon, I think the sub bulk up set is heavily underutilized. This can setup on common defensive mons like Slowbro and Clefable and tends to snowball out of control if the opponent doesn't have a very specific check. There honestly aren't even too many things that can beat it, two of which being haze Toxapex and Heatran, the latter being fairly easy to knock off/whittle down. This set is also obviously still able to check the things that defog corviknight can check, just without the ability to defog which really isn't hard to do in this meta.

1607474939507.png

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Roost

LO Hydreigon is a super nasty set rn and is on my current ladder team. Most people are favoring defog hydreigon over it due to its ability to check stuff like Heatran and Spectrier, but the LO set is still a huge breaker. A lot of things that try switching into defog hydreigon like Mandibuzz and Magearna get nasty plotted on as they switch in, and then die to a Draco/Earth Power. The only thing that really stops this at +2 is either revenge killing it with a faster mon or with Clefable. Flash Cannon is a possibility over earth power but then you lose out on the ability to hit tran and mage which is a huge issue in this meta. Also clef isn't that hard to knock off/paralyze if you have the right team support and can be easily be put in +2 earth power range.

Here's a team with this set if anyone wants to try it out, currently #3 with it: https://pokepast.es/a56328d1995b8cea


On a side note I don't think Pheromosa is that broken despite the high likelihood it's getting banned, and I think Magearna is a way bigger issue in the current meta. Hoping it gets tested soon after the phero test is over as its ability to cheese wins with one of the setup sets is way too high + its obviously other good sets in scarf and specs.
 

Thundurus-T

Yo guys, it's me. I haven't made a post here in a hot minute so I want to go over something, Rain. I am not exploring the whole archetype because a lot of posts have done that already, however after using rain for quite a bit, I want to talk about Thundurus-T. I really like this Pokemon on rain and its a huge threat depending on the moveset, which I have been experimenting with by playing a lot of games with it. In my eyes, Thunder / Weather Ball / Focus Blast are the moves that should always be used on Thundurus-T because it hits everything you really want to. Thunder 2HKos almost everything neutrally, Weather Ball bops the Grounds and Focus Blast hits 2 very important targets in Tyranitar and Ferrothorn, which can be hit nuisances to rain teams. However the last move can be different, and in this post I want to go over the moves you can use on the 4th move slot.

Nasty Plot

This is pretty self-explanatory. Nasty Plot in rain, combined with Thunder turns Thundurus-T into an absolute unwallable nuke, and its truly insane how hard it hits. Its base 101 Speed tier is pretty great and being able to outspeed base 100s is a very important and useful attribute to Thundurus-T's favour. Thunder at +2 can OHKO almost every single Pokemon in the tier, and even resists are capable of being 2HKOd by Thunder, the sturdier Electric resists and electric immunes that don't get bopped by Thunder get beat by either Focus Blast or Weather Ball. The main problem I would say would the fact that its still outsped by Latios, Cinderace, Garchomp, Dragapult etc. However, getting into the next move.

Agility

I've been experimenting with this quite a bit too and it works pretty well in my eyes. It can now afford to run Modest to make its attacks pack more of a punch and instead of acting as a unwallable breaker under rain, it can act as a cleaner under rain since it still hits ludicrously hard and the still performs as a genuine offensive threat against almost any team under rain due to how effective the first 3 moves are on it are, which is why I rate those so highly on Thundurus-T, they not only hit everything you want to but allows it to free up the last move, and Agility is a big part of that in my eyes since you can forgo Nasty Plot for Agility or Agility for Nasty Plot depending on the rain team. So yeah, I like agility quite a bit and does a lot in the potency on Thundurus-T under rain.

Substitute

Someone mentioned this in the OU discord and I was curious, so I used it a bit. Honestly its quite decent, its not amazing though as its situational depending mid-game and late-game since it doesn't really get that many opportunities to get up a Substitute since it is pretty frail still. However once it does get that Substitute up it can be a huge threat. Substitute allows Thundurus-T to ease prediction and it firing off its powerful attacks becomes less risky. I feel Substitute is less rewarding than Agility or Nasty Plot but its really because of the payoff that those 2 give, however I still feel Substitute while worse than both Agility and Nasty Plot to be a pretty viable option of Thundurus-T on rain teams and I feel should see some more experimentation.

===

So yeah that's all. Thundurus-T is a pretty cool rain option and I love how rewarding it can feel sometimes despite it not being that easy to fit onto rain compared to stuff like Tornadus-T, Urshifu-RS and Kingdra, however its super powerful on rain nonetheless and I encourage more people to use it. I hope you guys enjoyed this post! :blobthumbsup:
Thundurus-T is an excellent pick on rain in the meta right now. It's actually very easy to fit on rain teams because the only other viable "rain centric" electric immunities are Seismitoad and Swampert. There are niche options like Zeraora as well but Thundurus-T is a good deal better due to its sky-high special attack, passable speed tier, and fantastic typing. I like Grass Knot & WeatherBall as the coverage options because Focus Blast is crap and Grass Knot provides a good middle ground for whacking things like Tyranitar, Gastrodon, and Hippowdown which can bother the rest of the team. I find agility typically isn't worth it because rain has Swift Swimmers to clean up teams and Thundurus-T is a really good breaker that can overpower Blissey and those fat shit Pex / Clef cores.

View attachment 298249
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Roost

LO Hydreigon is a super nasty set rn and is on my current ladder team. Most people are favoring defog hydreigon over it due to its ability to check stuff like Heatran and Spectrier, but the LO set is still a huge breaker. A lot of things that try switching into defog hydreigon like Mandibuzz and Magearna get nasty plotted on as they switch in, and then die to a Draco/Earth Power. The only thing that really stops this at +2 is either revenge killing it with a faster mon or with Clefable. Flash Cannon is a possibility over earth power but then you lose out on the ability to hit tran and mage which is a huge issue in this meta. Also clef isn't that hard to knock off/paralyze if you have the right team support and can be easily be put in +2 earth power range.
I'm also going to cosign this here. Hydreigon is such a fun mon to use the meta right now due to its ability to check both Heatran & Spectrier in one slot. I've been tinkering around with a custom set myself that I made for sun teams:

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 12 Atk / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Draco Meteor
- Superpower
- Roost

This plays like an old Gen4 Mixed Salamence because nothing is safe, especially if you are good with predicting. Fire moves become psuedo-STAB with sun support. Fire Blast as always yields better calcs than Flamethrower but the latter is better for breaking Spectrier's subs and still kills most things you need it to.

12 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 715-845 (100.1 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns

12 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 377-447 (97.6 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

12 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 437-515 (108.1 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

244 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Sun: 201-238 (51 - 60.4%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

244 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magearna in Sun: 330-390 (90.6 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

244 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magearna in Sun: 403-476 (110.7 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

244 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu in Sun: 342-403 (100.2 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

244 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz in Sun: 205-242 (48.4 - 57.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

244 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 298-351 (98 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO

I haven't been able to make a groundbreaking sun team to make use of it, but this is what I have so far. I think sun in general isn't very good right now due to Sand and Rain being so dominant. Also, sun has to always think about how much punishment they can take from Cinderace & Blaziken.
 
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I dont exactly get why people prop up Heatran as a counter, or even a general check em, to magearna. i get its low elo as fuck, but the principles still apply.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1240251125-qjqpzoyvt1ge162roiln63n5i8t8q6vpw
unless mitigated, chip damage will enable even a plus 1 magearna to end it, not even counting the fact that aura sphere is 2/3 as strong as the typically used focus blast.
if caught by surprise I can see gear losing, but otherwise its all downhill from there.

[Edit] Holy fuck if screens are up its near impossible to dogpile on magearna. double screen uturn koko is working well enough, but my main problem is shift gear vs calm mind, in which should be used first
 
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I dont exactly get why people prop up Heatran as a counter, or even a general check em, to magearna. i get its low elo as fuck, but the principles still apply.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1240251125-qjqpzoyvt1ge162roiln63n5i8t8q6vpw
unless mitigated, chip damage will enable even a plus 1 magearna to end it, not even counting the fact that aura sphere is 2/3 as strong as the typically used focus blast.
if caught by surprise I can see gear losing, but otherwise its all downhill from there.
Because it doesnt unless its loaded with special defense which your variant doesnt appear to be which I can tell by the balloon. Heatran will normally beat the Shift Gear/Calm Mind/Stored Power/Draining Kiss variants if relatively healthy. But yes not sure where Heatran was discussed as a counter to Mag since I dont think I’ve ever seen that said in a serious manner.
 
Magearna has solid checks the problem is the checks diverge between sets and the Specs set has no opportunity cost. That’s really the set that puts Mage over the top. Once you figure out the set counter play exists but it can often be too late.

For example, Glowking is a decent switch into specs but is set up fodder for Double Dancer. Victini,Volcarona, Cinderace, Bulky SD Scizor are pretty good answers for Double Dance sets but take meaningless chip if they switch into a Specs Volt Switch. Marowak A is slower and takes a shit ton from Fluer. Pex can switch into Specs to some extent but if not brought out at full health immediately vs. DDs will lose to Stored Power. Heatran and Excadrill can also beat DD but can get KOed switching into Specs. Specs Magnezone can revenge trap Specs sets and deal good damage to DD but needs priority from a teammate to finish the job.

Add snowballing to the equation and the battle can be over immediately...
 
To be fair in the above replay the person is using the heat LO CM Aura Sphere/Focus Blast set.

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 286-338 (74 - 87.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Magearna Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 429-507 (111.1 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This is a common Heatran spread. Heatran is generally a check but only that, as it's 2HKOed by specs Aura Sphere and easily chipped by Volt Switch. It does stop the common virgin Draining Kiss + Stored Power sets and encourages mag to not just spam stabs, but it also easily loses to fighting move.
 

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