Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

They said it couldn't be done

:xy/tapu koko:
Tapu Koko @ Leftovers
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 32 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Toxic / Defog
- Volt Switch / U-turn
- Dazzling Gleam​

I've been experimenting with many Urshifu checks, including the likes of Togekiss, Weezing-Galar, and Tapu Fini, and I've found that defensive Koko is actually one of the best, if the not the best, Urshifu check out there, bar Buzzwole. Yeah that's right, it's even better than Clefable (at checking Urshifu). Plus, withPheromosa gone, this thing is even better, as it doesn't have to worry about that giant threat outspeeding it.

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 228 Def Tapu Koko on a critical hit: 132-156 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 228 Def Tapu Koko: 132-156 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 504-592 (147.8 - 173.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


The main premise is that, the reason its better than Clefable is simply because it can outspeed Urshifu and threaten to OHKO. That means even if Urshifu used Poison Jab on the switch, and did ~75%, you can still either Roost predicting him to switch, or Dazzling Gleam and OHKO predicting him to stay in. More often than not though, Urshifu is just gonna click the braindead move and you can Roost that off with ease.

Unlike Clefable, who invites fire types like Moltres, Heatran, and Cinderace, or steel types like Ferrothron and Melmetal, Koko will usually invites ground types like Swampert, Nidoking and Hippowdon or Blissey. Maybe a Rillaboom worst case scenario. The difference is that when Clefable is forced to Soft-Boiled the damage from Urshifu (or if Urshifu U-turns), you have these really hard to switch into mons like Melmetal, Heatran, and Cinderace. On the other hand, the bulky ground types aren't that hard to switch into, and can even be Toxic'd if you predict them to put rocks or something. The only troublesome one really is Nidoking.

Other perks: Tapu Koko is actually extremely splashable and can work as a solid speed control, even with only 32+ speed. It can revenge kill that +2 weakened Garchomp or threaten out the Hydreigon, for example. With Toxic, it can spread status pretty well (grass and ground pokemon switching into it), and with Defog, it can reliably defog hazards away without losing too much momentum. It also acts as a solid check to things other than Urshifu, namely Hydreigon, Tornadus-T, Hawlucha which is on the rise, and most importantly, Zapdos. Zapdos in this current meta has been extremely hard to switch into IMO, as somehow the enemy Zapdos has a 100% chance of hitting 5 Hurricanes in a row and confusing my Blissey or Hippowdon at least once. Tapu Koko can take whatever Zapdos dishes and can roost it off.

Other relevant calcs:

252 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 111-131 (32.3 - 38.1%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 248 HP / 228 Def Tapu Koko: 165-195 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (in electric Terrain)
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 102-120 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 228 Def Tapu Koko: 153-180 (44.6 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

Zneon

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Okay people, I want to talk about a certain mon, Galarian Slowking of course, cause that mon is really damn good and has been on the rise for about a month now, and I want to bring up a set that has been doing a lot for me lately, and I feel will get better as time goes on.


Slowking-Galar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 212 HP / 252 SpA / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Psychic
- Fire Blast / Focus Blast
- Trick

So after a lot of playing around with it, I can safely say that Choice Specs Glowking is actually really good and has a pretty solid place in the metagame. I feel the biggest thing that makes this set better than I really would have expected is the fact that its attacks sting so much more, especially Psychic and even without AV, this mon is still as great defensive utility. Its able to check stuff like Specs Magearna and Latios while being a Toxic Spikes absorber, that has great longevity, that also breaks balance cores very well. Sludge Bomb is harder to switch into because of the increased damage of Specs combined with potential poison, I prefer Psychic over Psyshock since it 2HKOs more targets and really the only reason why you would Psyshock over Psychic would be Blissey, and I don't even think that is safe due to the threat of Trick. Fire Blast and Focus Blast are for nuking the stuff that wall your STABs, mainly Ferrothorn and Melmetal for both. If you want specific targets for Fire Blast, Magearna and Corviknight are the big ones, and as for Focus Blast, it helps with the matchup vs Heatran.

So yeah test it out! I made a team with it as well if you want to also check that out or use it.

 
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Yay now that mosa is gone, let's wait a couple weeks [ hell why not a month?] to suspect test Broken ass Urshifu S. Cause we all know no mosa means a whole new meta that DEFINITELY isn't even better for urshifu S.

Really tho I want this brain dead bear gone ASAP. After he's out i think things will be a lot more fun for everyone. Whenever I use clef or fini, its with urshifu in mind never mosa. So no urshifu should = less fat fairies . Which sounds lovely
 

The Dragon Master

So you have chosen, Death
is a Pre-Contributor
They said it couldn't be done

:xy/tapu koko:
Tapu Koko @ Leftovers
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 32 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Toxic / Defog
- Volt Switch / U-turn
- Dazzling Gleam​

I've been experimenting with many Urshifu checks, including the likes of Togekiss, Weezing-Galar, and Tapu Fini, and I've found that defensive Koko is actually one of the best, if the not the best, Urshifu check out there, bar Buzzwole. Yeah that's right, it's even better than Clefable (at checking Urshifu). Plus, withPheromosa gone, this thing is even better, as it doesn't have to worry about that giant threat outspeeding it.

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 228 Def Tapu Koko on a critical hit: 132-156 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 228 Def Tapu Koko: 132-156 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 504-592 (147.8 - 173.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


The main premise is that, the reason its better than Clefable is simply because it can outspeed Urshifu and threaten to OHKO. That means even if Urshifu used Poison Jab on the switch, and did ~75%, you can still either Roost predicting him to switch, or Dazzling Gleam and OHKO predicting him to stay in. More often than not though, Urshifu is just gonna click the braindead move and you can Roost that off with ease.

Unlike Clefable, who invites fire types like Moltres, Heatran, and Cinderace, or steel types like Ferrothron and Melmetal, Koko will usually invites ground types like Swampert, Nidoking and Hippowdon or Blissey. Maybe a Rillaboom worst case scenario. The difference is that when Clefable is forced to Soft-Boiled the damage from Urshifu (or if Urshifu U-turns), you have these really hard to switch into mons like Melmetal, Heatran, and Cinderace. On the other hand, the bulky ground types aren't that hard to switch into, and can even be Toxic'd if you predict them to put rocks or something. The only troublesome one really is Nidoking.

Other perks: Tapu Koko is actually extremely splashable and can work as a solid speed control, even with only 32+ speed. It can revenge kill that +2 weakened Garchomp or threaten out the Hydreigon, for example. With Toxic, it can spread status pretty well (grass and ground pokemon switching into it), and with Defog, it can reliably defog hazards away without losing too much momentum. It also acts as a solid check to things other than Urshifu, namely Hydreigon, Tornadus-T, Hawlucha which is on the rise, and most importantly, Zapdos. Zapdos in this current meta has been extremely hard to switch into IMO, as somehow the enemy Zapdos has a 100% chance of hitting 5 Hurricanes in a row and confusing my Blissey or Hippowdon at least once. Tapu Koko can take whatever Zapdos dishes and can roost it off.

Other relevant calcs:

252 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 111-131 (32.3 - 38.1%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 248 HP / 228 Def Tapu Koko: 165-195 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (in electric Terrain)
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 102-120 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 228 Def Tapu Koko: 153-180 (44.6 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Great post, but question, why does your koko have 248 hp, wouldn't 252 be better?
 
Great post, but question, why does your koko have 248 hp, wouldn't 252 be better?
On Pokemon that are gonna be switching in and out a lot, you want to have an odd number of HP points. In this case, 248 HP EVs would be 343 HP instead of 344. Stealth Rock takes 12.5% of your HP, so 12.5% of 344 means you lose 43 points on the switch, but if you had 343 HP (248 HP EVs), you would actually lose 42 HP, since pokemon rounds down. In more extreme case like a Charizard who is taking 50% HP from rocks, usually you die on the second switch if you have 400 HP (you take 200 HP each switch). However, if you had 401 HP, you would be taking 200 HP (not 200.5) and so that means on the second switch you would be living with 1 HP instead of dying.

PM me if you have more questions :D
 
I was trying to find a last member for my stall squad and needed something that could at the same time beat CM Taunt Tapu Fini, Suicune - probably amongst the biggest stallbreakers out there - and remove hazards. Seems undoable, right ? Not for my boy Eldegoss.

1608377238556.png


Eldegoss @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Rapid Spin
- Bullet Seed
- Giga Drain

With 60/90/120 Bulk and access to Regenerator, Rapid spin and Grass type, it fills the niche that I described above. Bullet seed is needed because Suicune doesn't care about your 16 PPs Giga drain. While I admit it's probably not good outside that, it can still RS on many things thanks to Regenerator and only feels really bad using if you're against a Ferrothorn. Do not burn me for posting Eldegoss, it is obviously bad but still worth a mention I guess.

EDIT: I was wrong .. Volcanion also beat them and has Defog :psywoke:
 
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Martin

RIP AND TEAR
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On Pokemon that are gonna be switching in and out a lot, you want to have an odd number of HP points.
I’d be very careful to avoid saying this. I’m fairly sure you know how the calculation actually works given the rest of your post, but starting off your post with a massive oversimplification of game mechanics like this is just spreading an already-common piece of misinformation.

You are correct to lower its HP in the case of Tapu Koko, as 344 is divisible by 8, but “odd number good” is far from universal. The HP stat you want for Stealth Rock specifically is, in a best-case scenario, one less than a multiple of demominator of the fraction damage they take, so the odd number rule only actually applies if you take 1/2 health from Stealth Rock. If Koko had 342 or 346 health then reducing the HP EVs would harm Koko instead of helping it.

Matters are further complicated in the case of Pokémon with things like Regenerator, Poison Heal and debatably Leftovers/Black Sludge, as they want to have HP stats that ARE divisible by the respective fraction for efficient recovery. For example, Amoonguss should run 252 HP despite 432 being divisible by 8 because 432 is also divisible by both 3 and 16, meaning that by running 248 you reduce both Regenerator and Black Sludge recovery—which will add up much faster/more consistently than Stealth Rock over the course of a game.
 
:xy/tapu koko:
Tapu Koko @ Leftovers
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 32 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Toxic / Defog
- Volt Switch / U-turn
- Dazzling Gleam
Hey, cool set !
What do you think adding Roar to make that set phazer
Koko resist actual OU CM users that raise (Suicune, Magearna, and rare Tapu Fini)
+ Roar is same priority as Teleport, can break some wish pass or future sight
+3 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. Koko → 72.8 - 86%
+2 0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. Koko → 72 - 85.1%
+1 252 SpA Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. Koko → 72.5 - 85.4% (120BP for shift gear + CM)
Modest 252SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon have chance to OHKO without boost
Tapu Koko @ Leftovers
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 32 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Roar / Toxic / Defog
- Volt Switch / U-turn
- Dazzling Gleam

Volt Switch don't make Koko a counter of Sub Suicune, without other mons.
Koko → Volt Switch vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune in Electric Terrain: 84-102 (20.7 - 25.2%)
 
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I’d be very careful to avoid saying this. I’m fairly sure you know how the calculation actually works given the rest of your post, but starting off your post with a massive oversimplification of game mechanics like this is just spreading an already-common piece of misinformation.

You are correct to lower its HP in the case of Tapu Koko, as 344 is divisible by 8, but “odd number good” is far from universal. The HP stat you want for Stealth Rock specifically is, in a best-case scenario, one less than a multiple of demominator of the fraction damage they take, so the odd number rule only actually applies if you take 1/2 health from Stealth Rock. If Koko had 342 or 346 health then reducing the HP EVs would harm Koko instead of helping it.

Matters are further complicated in the case of Pokémon with things like Regenerator, Poison Heal and debatably Leftovers/Black Sludge, as they want to have HP stats that ARE divisible by the respective fraction for efficient recovery. For example, Amoonguss should run 252 HP despite 432 being divisible by 8 because 432 is also divisible by both 3 and 16, meaning that by running 248 you reduce both Regenerator and Black Sludge recovery—which will add up much faster/more consistently than Stealth Rock over the course of a game.
I was trying to simplify it as much as I could but you made a better post explaining the intricate details lol. I also learned something new as I always run 248 HP on Amoonguss so big thanks :)
Tapu Koko @ Leftovers
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 32 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Roar / Toxic / Defog
- Volt Switch / U-turn
- Dazzling Gleam
Although Roar is an interesting option that can help with CM Fini, and maybe if you want a last resort just-in-case option for Magearna, I think there are better options out there. Plus, Toxic is a very valuable move that allows you to bait in ground- and grass- types and hit them with Toxic, bar Nidoking and Ferrothorn. Of course, there are other moves for utility Koko like Discharge to spread status or Taunt to help vs. fat, but I personally found that Toxic is by far the best option and almost irreplaceable, unless your team really needs a Defogger and you can't afford another slot on your team.
 
Recently i have been running this orange thing:

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
- Dual Wingbeat
- Defog

Can check popular C-Band threats like Rilla, Cinderace, Urshifu forms, Barraskewda, Kartana and Zapdos-G while crippling them with T-wave and defogging ocasion rocks. The key is abusing roost and trying to stay full health most of the time so pairing with a Heal-Bell/Aromatherapy mon can be useful.
 
Recently i have been running this orange thing:

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
- Dual Wingbeat
- Defog

Can check popular C-Band threats like Rilla, Cinderace, Urshifu forms, Barraskewda, Kartana and Zapdos-G while crippling them with T-wave and defogging ocasion rocks. The key is abusing roost and trying to stay full health most of the time so pairing with a Heal-Bell/Aromatherapy mon can be useful.
Unorthodox but i like it. A unique take on a bulky flying defogger. I'd say watch out for tapu fini and nidoking since you cant paralyze them, and they can hit him super-effectively. I think the best part is that since you aren't using corviknight, your free to use another steel type like melmetal.
 
Unorthodox but i like it. A unique take on a bulky flying defogger. I'd say watch out for tapu fini and nidoking since you cant paralyze them, and they can hit him super-effectively. I think the best part is that since you aren't using corviknight, your free to use another steel type like melmetal.
I've been using him with SpDef+ Swampert but Fini is a problem yeah. Triple-Axel Phero was another but thank god for ban.

This is a cool replay of him in action: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1246695584

I have some more uninteristing ones but the main point is that he can absorb a lot of physical damage + good utility.
 
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The combination of Choice Specs Tapu Koko and Spikes Skarmory is very potent right now.
:ss/skarmory:+ :ss/tapu koko:
Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Spikes
- Whirlwind
- Body Press

Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic/Grass Knot/Roost/Whatever
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Volt Switch

This combination works because of the excellent synergy of Spikes + Tapu Koko. Tapu Koko has three categories of defensive checks: Ground types, bulky Grass types, and Blissey/Chansey.

Ground types all present opportunities for Skarmory to come in and lay down spikes. Ground types do not tend to run boots currently, and the one Spikes-immune ground, Lando-T, gets annihilated by Specs Dazzling Gleam AND lets Skarmory lay more spikes.

Bulky Grass types basically means Ferrothorn, because AV Tangrowth doesn't exist on the ladder right now. Ferrothorn is more annoying, because you trade Spikes with Skarmory, but it still is greatly weakened from having to come in on Volt Switch + Spikes. Body Press on Skarmory allows you to sort of win the 1v1.

Blissey runs boots, and so is not concerned with Spikes. However, Blissey is an invitation to click Volt Switch and go out to your Blissey answer, giving you lots of momentum.

The other important benefit is that Tapu Koko beats like almost every defogger. If your opponent has a defogger that isn't Lando-T, every time they want to defog is an invitation for Koko to come in. The major problem with this core is that Tapu Koko gets worn down quickly. I think using last move Roost is a good way to mitigate this, but it can be a large momentum sink. I've also experimented with last move Toxic or Grass Knot, but I think that Roost is the best option.

Set Notes
I have been using Modest Tapu Koko, which was a big no-no in Gen7, but it works because there is a big hole in the speed tiers. I would consider changing it to Timid for Cinderace, but the extra power is very nice, and especially with the terrain nerf, Koko needs all the power it can get. Modest isn't necessary, but if you're all about power like I am, you should give it a whirl.

Ladder players often will bring teams that are mono-walled by Skarmory, and it's especially fun to see +2 LO Garchomp Scale Shot completely bounce off. Whirlwind is necessary on this set so you don't lose to SD Fire Fang Garchomp or something stupid like that, but Body Press can be whatever you like. I like Body Press to beat Ferrothorn, but Brave Bird or Iron Head could work. Absolutely do not use SpDef Skarmory here, because you need Skarmory to actually beat physical attackers.
 
The combination of Choice Specs Tapu Koko and Spikes Skarmory is very potent right now.
:ss/skarmory:+ :ss/tapu koko:
Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Spikes
- Whirlwind
- Body Press

Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic/Grass Knot/Roost/Whatever
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Volt Switch

This combination works because of the excellent synergy of Spikes + Tapu Koko. Tapu Koko has three categories of defensive checks: Ground types, bulky Grass types, and Blissey/Chansey.

Ground types all present opportunities for Skarmory to come in and lay down spikes. Ground types do not tend to run boots currently, and the one Spikes-immune ground, Lando-T, gets annihilated by Specs Dazzling Gleam AND lets Skarmory lay more spikes.

Bulky Grass types basically means Ferrothorn, because AV Tangrowth doesn't exist on the ladder right now. Ferrothorn is more annoying, because you trade Spikes with Skarmory, but it still is greatly weakened from having to come in on Volt Switch + Spikes. Body Press on Skarmory allows you to sort of win the 1v1.

Blissey runs boots, and so is not concerned with Spikes. However, Blissey is an invitation to click Volt Switch and go out to your Blissey answer, giving you lots of momentum.

The other important benefit is that Tapu Koko beats like almost every defogger. If your opponent has a defogger that isn't Lando-T, every time they want to defog is an invitation for Koko to come in. The major problem with this core is that Tapu Koko gets worn down quickly. I think using last move Roost is a good way to mitigate this, but it can be a large momentum sink. I've also experimented with last move Toxic or Grass Knot, but I think that Roost is the best option.

Set Notes
I have been using Modest Tapu Koko, which was a big no-no in Gen7, but it works because there is a big hole in the speed tiers. I would consider changing it to Timid for Cinderace, but the extra power is very nice, and especially with the terrain nerf, Koko needs all the power it can get. Modest isn't necessary, but if you're all about power like I am, you should give it a whirl.

Ladder players often will bring teams that are mono-walled by Skarmory, and it's especially fun to see +2 LO Garchomp Scale Shot completely bounce off. Whirlwind is necessary on this set so you don't lose to SD Fire Fang Garchomp or something stupid like that, but Body Press can be whatever you like. I like Body Press to beat Ferrothorn, but Brave Bird or Iron Head could work. Absolutely do not use SpDef Skarmory here, because you need Skarmory to actually beat physical attackers.
If you are gonna play this, I would really recommend adding something that can deal with nidoking, as it can body both of these mons. it doesnt get 2hkod by gleam even with spikes up (1 layer), wrecks koko with either stab, and almost always carries either thunderbolt or flamethrower for skarm. Also god help you if it comes in on an electric move by koko. The only way things can go in your favor is if you grass knot it as it's coming in. Something like blissey or spdef swampert could work well, since both can set up rocks to further help your strategy and can take most of king's attacks pretty well

Otherwise i really agree that spikes are criminally underrated in this meta, and skarm has a real niche as a spike setter/one of the 1351335151 bulky birds running amok in the tier, also it's hilarious if the opponent has an excadrill as a spinner,helmet skarmory can abuse it so hard it aint even funny
 
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If you are gonna play this, I would really recommend adding something that can deal with nidoking, as it can body both of these mons. it doesnt get 2hkod by gleam even with spikes up (1 layer), wrecks koko with either stab, and almost always carries either thunderbolt or flamethrower for skarm. Also god help you if it comes in on an electric move by koko. The only way things can go in your favor is if you grass knot it as it's coming in. Something like blissey or spdef swampert could work well, since both can set up rocks to further help your strategy and can take most of king's attacks pretty well

Otherwise i really agree that spikes are criminally underrated in this meta, and skarm has a real niche as a spike setter/one of the 1351335151 bulky birds running amok in the tier, also it's hilarious if the opponent has an excadrill as a spinner,helmet skarmory can abuse it so hard it aint even funny
Swampert offers the best synergy, as it compresses an electric immunity, a fire resistance, a poison resistance, stealth rocks, and both threatens Nidoking with earthquake or can pivot out with flip turn. It also is only 2hko'd by earth power with only max hp, and easily avoids it with max spdef.
 
Now that mosa is banned, I would like to address two big metagame threats that are Urshifu Single Strike and Spectrier.
The restrictions mosa put on teambuilding were one of the reasons that led to it being banned. Offensive counterplay was really slim, if any. But even moreso can be said for Urshifu, which forces every team to run either Clef, Fini or Buzzwole, of which only Buzzwole is able to check long term due to LO Poison Jab Urshifu or just a CB Jab on the switch dealing considerable amounts of damage and making them unable to check Urshifu consistently. Expecially on Fini's case, every chip damage dealt on it is mostly unrecoverable, being Fini reliable on the weak Draining Kiss for recovery.
Said defensive counterplay is also very easily exploitable and predictable, considering how every time it comes in Urshifu either forces a kill or a switch into said checks.
Similarly, Spectrier forces a Dark-type in every team, and, if not that, either SpDef Tran, Pex, Blissey and Ferro on a lot teams, which I would like to point out might even not enough if you happen to face Sub CM Wisp or Sub Disable in Pex and Blissey's case, or get Mud Shot on the switch in Heatran's case, or are chipped enough in both Heatran's and Ferro's case considering how Specs shadow ball deals 40% min to SpDef Ferro. I won't talk about stoss+sball Blissey because that set is straight up bad, or even mono sball blissey, because even if they beat Spectrier they lose to every other single mon in the tier. Most importantly, notice how every one of these mons gets OHKO by Urshifu.
My point regarding Spectrier is that while not being an over restrictive mon per se, and not ban worthy per se, considering that Urshifu is also in the tier, which also happens to beat every single one of the horse's checks and counters bar Mandibuzz, it suddenly becomes makes Spectrier look very close to broken. It also makes it very hard to build a team that feels fine against both of them without heavily compromizing some other very relevant match ups like the Magearna one, for example. Needless to say, this makes building a team that feels good in general, as in against most of what you can find in the meta, incredibly incredibly hard.

To wrap things up, at the current state of the game, I think that Urshifu is a very toxic presence in the metagame, not only because of its very restrict counterplay, all of which exploitable, if not by Urshifu himself, by its teammates, but because it forces teams into very akward choices that make them weak to the other offensive powerhouses in the metagame, thus making the Crown Tundra meta unhealthily more match up based than it needs to be.

I hope all of my points made sense and are well explained enough: I wanted to be as clear as possible as well as being not too lenghy about my points. Have a nice day! :]
 
I played a decent number of games during Phero's suspect and a few after the ban.
A conclusion i got from those games was that teambuilding in the current meta is so hard, especially because the Holy Trinity of Urshifu-SS, Spectrier and Magearna.
These Pokemon restrict a lot the process of building a viable team, because they force you to add a pokemon from a especific pool of mons. For example, Urshifu forces you to run Clef, Fini and Buzzwole but the first 2 can be lured and hitted by a strong PJab, making them shaky at checking Urshifu on the long run. And in Spectrier case, you need to run Dark-types and sometimes, that dark-type may have a suboptimal set to actually neuter it with all of its viable sets (I was forced to run Crunch+Rest on Tyranitar to prevent insta-lose). I'm not going to talk about Blissey because...it loses a ton of utility or the option to deal with other threats just to run Shadow Ball and hope that Spectrier doesn't have Disable, which is utterly atrocious for me.
In my opinion, Magearna is very problematic right now. It has a ton of sets, being Double Dance (SG+CM or ID+CM) and Specs very dangerous, and that diversity of sets limits a lot the potential defensive counterplay because you don't know what it will do. Also, it literally picks its checks and counters based on its expansive movepool, making build around it more easy. Also, it profits a lot from Urshifu, because it can setup on many Urshifu checks like the aforementioned Clef, Fini and Buzzwole, and enjoys Urshifu smacking steel-types for, allowing it to forgo coverage for steel-types and run something like Draining Kiss+Stored Power set, which is very threatening.

In my opinion, Urshifu should be suspect-tested without the object of suspect on the ladder ASAP and observe the development of the metagame without Urshifu on it. After that, if another mon is giving troubles, Council can hear the voice of the players through those great surveys to allow us to express how do we feel about the meta and potential problematics mons.
 

Finchinator

Harry's House
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OU & NU Leader
Urshifu is getting pretty ridiculous.

I was recently thinking about how Pheromosa limited teambuilding pretty horribly; you virtually had to run one of a small pool of Pokemon or you got punished horribly by it. Urshifu is basically in the same boat as Pheromosa in this regard though. Sucker Punch makes it challenging to consistently revenge kill, Fighting+Dark coverage makes it challenging to consistently switch in-to, and coverage deters a handful of other potential answers. You are virtually limited to running a bulky Fairy type like Clefable or Tapu Fini and praying not to run into a timely Poison Jab, running the decreasingly common Buzzwole, or hoping for it to be choiced and running a core like RH Toxapex + durable Dark resist (Mandibuzz, Roost Hydreigon, your own Urshifu, or Leftovers Magearna). With some timely plays or the right set, it can even pick all of these besides Buzzwole off, too.

An Urshifu paired with Future Sight + Teleport can potentially claim multiple kills no matter what the opponent does unless they try to cut off bulky Regenerator Pokemon upon entry repeatedly, which can easily backfire. Perhaps Urshifu is simply the best abuser of this dynamic in the metagame, but regardless of that I do not see a Slowbro or Future Sight suspect on the horizon and Urshifu as a whole seems pretty challenging to answer right now. Being able to deter things like Buzzwole or the occasional RH Tangrowth is pretty huge, too, as teams figure they are safe until Urshifu comes in with a Future Sighting incoming and there is absolutely nothing to switch in to that is not super risky.

On top of this, Urshifu has respectable physical bulk and decent enough speed to get in safely enough, especially when paired with Teleport or slow U-turn/Volt Switch, which is not exactly hard to integrate onto your teams in this metagame. I feel like the barrier to entry is low, the levels of counterplay are insufficient, and the convenience factor for a Pokemon with these qualities is far too high for Urshifu to be balanced right now. I believe it is the most pressing issue in the metagame as it stands.

With this said, I understand any and all complaints about Spectrier. It, too, can be a limiting Pokemon and I plan on posting more about it in the future.
 
Animated the Official Obstagoon art | Pokemon, Ideias para desenho, Dragões


I've been exploring cool underrated stuff here and there and came across this demon. Obstagoon has a pretty interesting typing in this metagame where it has the potential to shine. Now obviously Urishifu is the superior (and broken lol) Dark Type, but Obstagoon's move pool accommodates to just agitate balanced cores. It's essentially immune to Spectrier, one problematic mon in the metagame and doesn't care about Wisp. Worried about Flame Body or Static? Well pretty sure Flame Orb doesn't care either. The combination of Knock Off/Switcheroo means that you can manipulate item-dependent mons. Facade hits incredibly hard to non-resists, and then your opponent will also have to worry about the potential CC, which comes in handy against Steel types. I've been a fan of this mons pre-Home DLC and even though it faded during the DLC iterations, I think that Obstagoon as a niche place in the metagame and can throw teams off.
 

Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
Urshifu has obviously been broken since day one but the general consensus was that we'd wait and see when the DLC is out, and now it is and it's even more stupid due to new tools and new limiting mons. almost every single team 1800+ seems to have this and it's getting not only monotonous but downright embarrassing that people have to rely on such broken strategies to win. and before any of you respond to that, just so you know, it's extremely clear how the majority of you users play with it that ur strategy is just to bully teams with urshifu to victory, which honestly isnt even a legitimate strategy at all, besides wish/teleport, no type of team synergy; and I thought the using lando as glue was pathethic. anyway, the sheer power this thing has + typing + the ability to break through protect and always crit has always been infuriating that it's around, but now it's gotten to the point where this game is pretty unfun to play. Oh, another game of urshifu + mage + spectrier + ace, so fun so great. love it yay, this is exactly what I am here for. At this point I think even the urshifu foot soldiers can't even deny that it's broken are just buying time before it gets banned for which I wrap up with: is there anyone legitimate that has any actual point on why it should not be quickbanned?
 
Urshifu has obviously been broken since day one but the general consensus was that we'd wait and see when the DLC is out, and now it is and it's even more stupid due to new tools and new limiting mons. almost every single team 1800+ seems to have this and it's getting not only monotonous but downright embarrassing that people have to rely on such broken strategies to win. and before any of you respond to that, just so you know, it's extremely clear how the majority of you users play with it that ur strategy is just to bully teams with urshifu to victory, which honestly isnt even a legitimate strategy at all, besides wish/teleport, no type of team synergy; and I thought the using lando as glue was pathethic. anyway, the sheer power this thing has + typing + the ability to break through protect and always crit has always been infuriating that it's around, but now it's gotten to the point where this game is pretty unfun to play. Oh, another game of urshifu + mage + spectrier + ace, so fun so great. love it yay, this is exactly what I am here for. At this point I think even the urshifu foot soldiers can't even deny that it's broken are just buying time before it gets banned for which I wrap up with: is there anyone legitimate that has any actual point on why it should not be quickbanned?
One point. It makes stall hilariously trivial. Between Future Sight pressure plus Close Combat from Urshifu makes stall non existent. From my experience facing teams that were considered stall, just clicking buttons in FS and bringing in Urshifu is a delight and seeing Toxapex struggle to take this combination is just something I needed from the horrors Pex brought me in gen 7. But maybe that's even more proof that Urshifu should be banned soooo :blobshrug:
 

Finchinator

Harry's House
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
is there anyone legitimate that has any actual point on why it should not be quickbanned?
In the comments of the tiering survey, it did not receive even close to enough mentions to be in the quickban discussion. Unlike the things we have quickbanned, there are actual counters that handle every set it uses and the metagame is clearly playable with it in the tier. I agree that Urshifu is broken and I was the reason this topic was brought up to begin with, but this is about as clear of a suspect as it gets. There is not enough support for a quickban, there is nowhere near enough justification from the council to warrant not having the community vote on it, and there is no reason to rush the process for the sake of catering to your personal agenda, which is not representative of the entire playerbase.

I understand your passion for the metagame and I appreciate you sharing your opinions as always, but a quickban here would be unreasonable.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
To be fair, the quickbans that happened were even more broken and problematic than Urshifu and I don't think it was even in the Kyurem and Zygarde survey to begin with. At any rate, I do think this thing should be suspected sometime soon
 

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