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I’d be very careful to avoid saying this. I’m fairly sure you know how the calculation actually works given the rest of your post, but starting off your post with a massive oversimplification of game mechanics like this is just spreading an already-common piece of misinformation.
You are correct to lower its HP in the case of Tapu Koko, as 344 is divisible by 8, but “odd number good” is far from universal. The HP stat you want for Stealth Rock specifically is, in a best-case scenario, one less than a multiple of demominator of the fraction damage they take, so the odd number rule only actually applies if you take 1/2 health from Stealth Rock. If Koko had 342 or 346 health then reducing the HP EVs would harm Koko instead of helping it.
Matters are further complicated in the case of Pokémon with things like Regenerator, Poison Heal and debatably Leftovers/Black Sludge, as they want to have HP stats that ARE divisible by the respective fraction for efficient recovery. For example, Amoonguss should run 252 HP despite 432 being divisible by 8 because 432 is also divisible by both 3 and 16, meaning that by running 248 you reduce both Regenerator and Black Sludge recovery—which will add up much faster/more consistently than Stealth Rock over the course of a game.
I was trying to simplify it as much as I could but you made a better post explaining the intricate details lol. I also learned something new as I always run 248 HP on Amoonguss so big thanks :)
Although Roar is an interesting option that can help with CM Fini, and maybe if you want a last resort just-in-case option for Magearna, I think there are better options out there. Plus, Toxic is a very valuable move that allows you to bait in ground- and grass- types and hit them with Toxic, bar Nidoking and Ferrothorn. Of course, there are other moves for utility Koko like Discharge to spread status or Taunt to help vs. fat, but I personally found that Toxic is by far the best option and almost irreplaceable, unless your team really needs a Defogger and you can't afford another slot on your team.
Can check popular C-Band threats like Rilla, Cinderace, Urshifu forms, Barraskewda, Kartana and Zapdos-G while crippling them with T-wave and defogging ocasion rocks. The key is abusing roost and trying to stay full health most of the time so pairing with a Heal-Bell/Aromatherapy mon can be useful.
Can check popular C-Band threats like Rilla, Cinderace, Urshifu forms, Barraskewda, Kartana and Zapdos-G while crippling them with T-wave and defogging ocasion rocks. The key is abusing roost and trying to stay full health most of the time so pairing with a Heal-Bell/Aromatherapy mon can be useful.
Unorthodox but i like it. A unique take on a bulky flying defogger. I'd say watch out for tapu fini and nidoking since you cant paralyze them, and they can hit him super-effectively. I think the best part is that since you aren't using corviknight, your free to use another steel type like melmetal.
Unorthodox but i like it. A unique take on a bulky flying defogger. I'd say watch out for tapu fini and nidoking since you cant paralyze them, and they can hit him super-effectively. I think the best part is that since you aren't using corviknight, your free to use another steel type like melmetal.
This combination works because of the excellent synergy of Spikes + Tapu Koko. Tapu Koko has three categories of defensive checks: Ground types, bulky Grass types, and Blissey/Chansey.
Ground types all present opportunities for Skarmory to come in and lay down spikes. Ground types do not tend to run boots currently, and the one Spikes-immune ground, Lando-T, gets annihilated by Specs Dazzling Gleam AND lets Skarmory lay more spikes.
Bulky Grass types basically means Ferrothorn, because AV Tangrowth doesn't exist on the ladder right now. Ferrothorn is more annoying, because you trade Spikes with Skarmory, but it still is greatly weakened from having to come in on Volt Switch + Spikes. Body Press on Skarmory allows you to sort of win the 1v1.
Blissey runs boots, and so is not concerned with Spikes. However, Blissey is an invitation to click Volt Switch and go out to your Blissey answer, giving you lots of momentum.
The other important benefit is that Tapu Koko beats like almost every defogger. If your opponent has a defogger that isn't Lando-T, every time they want to defog is an invitation for Koko to come in. The major problem with this core is that Tapu Koko gets worn down quickly. I think using last move Roost is a good way to mitigate this, but it can be a large momentum sink. I've also experimented with last move Toxic or Grass Knot, but I think that Roost is the best option.
Set Notes
I have been using Modest Tapu Koko, which was a big no-no in Gen7, but it works because there is a big hole in the speed tiers. I would consider changing it to Timid for Cinderace, but the extra power is very nice, and especially with the terrain nerf, Koko needs all the power it can get. Modest isn't necessary, but if you're all about power like I am, you should give it a whirl.
Ladder players often will bring teams that are mono-walled by Skarmory, and it's especially fun to see +2 LO Garchomp Scale Shot completely bounce off. Whirlwind is necessary on this set so you don't lose to SD Fire Fang Garchomp or something stupid like that, but Body Press can be whatever you like. I like Body Press to beat Ferrothorn, but Brave Bird or Iron Head could work. Absolutely do not use SpDef Skarmory here, because you need Skarmory to actually beat physical attackers.
This combination works because of the excellent synergy of Spikes + Tapu Koko. Tapu Koko has three categories of defensive checks: Ground types, bulky Grass types, and Blissey/Chansey.
Ground types all present opportunities for Skarmory to come in and lay down spikes. Ground types do not tend to run boots currently, and the one Spikes-immune ground, Lando-T, gets annihilated by Specs Dazzling Gleam AND lets Skarmory lay more spikes.
Bulky Grass types basically means Ferrothorn, because AV Tangrowth doesn't exist on the ladder right now. Ferrothorn is more annoying, because you trade Spikes with Skarmory, but it still is greatly weakened from having to come in on Volt Switch + Spikes. Body Press on Skarmory allows you to sort of win the 1v1.
Blissey runs boots, and so is not concerned with Spikes. However, Blissey is an invitation to click Volt Switch and go out to your Blissey answer, giving you lots of momentum.
The other important benefit is that Tapu Koko beats like almost every defogger. If your opponent has a defogger that isn't Lando-T, every time they want to defog is an invitation for Koko to come in. The major problem with this core is that Tapu Koko gets worn down quickly. I think using last move Roost is a good way to mitigate this, but it can be a large momentum sink. I've also experimented with last move Toxic or Grass Knot, but I think that Roost is the best option.
Set Notes
I have been using Modest Tapu Koko, which was a big no-no in Gen7, but it works because there is a big hole in the speed tiers. I would consider changing it to Timid for Cinderace, but the extra power is very nice, and especially with the terrain nerf, Koko needs all the power it can get. Modest isn't necessary, but if you're all about power like I am, you should give it a whirl.
Ladder players often will bring teams that are mono-walled by Skarmory, and it's especially fun to see +2 LO Garchomp Scale Shot completely bounce off. Whirlwind is necessary on this set so you don't lose to SD Fire Fang Garchomp or something stupid like that, but Body Press can be whatever you like. I like Body Press to beat Ferrothorn, but Brave Bird or Iron Head could work. Absolutely do not use SpDef Skarmory here, because you need Skarmory to actually beat physical attackers.
If you are gonna play this, I would really recommend adding something that can deal with nidoking, as it can body both of these mons. it doesnt get 2hkod by gleam even with spikes up (1 layer), wrecks koko with either stab, and almost always carries either thunderbolt or flamethrower for skarm. Also god help you if it comes in on an electric move by koko. The only way things can go in your favor is if you grass knot it as it's coming in. Something like blissey or spdef swampert could work well, since both can set up rocks to further help your strategy and can take most of king's attacks pretty well
Otherwise i really agree that spikes are criminally underrated in this meta, and skarm has a real niche as a spike setter/one of the 1351335151 bulky birds running amok in the tier, also it's hilarious if the opponent has an excadrill as a spinner,helmet skarmory can abuse it so hard it aint even funny
If you are gonna play this, I would really recommend adding something that can deal with nidoking, as it can body both of these mons. it doesnt get 2hkod by gleam even with spikes up (1 layer), wrecks koko with either stab, and almost always carries either thunderbolt or flamethrower for skarm. Also god help you if it comes in on an electric move by koko. The only way things can go in your favor is if you grass knot it as it's coming in. Something like blissey or spdef swampert could work well, since both can set up rocks to further help your strategy and can take most of king's attacks pretty well
Otherwise i really agree that spikes are criminally underrated in this meta, and skarm has a real niche as a spike setter/one of the 1351335151 bulky birds running amok in the tier, also it's hilarious if the opponent has an excadrill as a spinner,helmet skarmory can abuse it so hard it aint even funny
Swampert offers the best synergy, as it compresses an electric immunity, a fire resistance, a poison resistance, stealth rocks, and both threatens Nidoking with earthquake or can pivot out with flip turn. It also is only 2hko'd by earth power with only max hp, and easily avoids it with max spdef.
Now that mosa is banned, I would like to address two big metagame threats that are Urshifu Single Strike and Spectrier.
The restrictions mosa put on teambuilding were one of the reasons that led to it being banned. Offensive counterplay was really slim, if any. But even moreso can be said for Urshifu, which forces every team to run either Clef, Fini or Buzzwole, of which only Buzzwole is able to check long term due to LO Poison Jab Urshifu or just a CB Jab on the switch dealing considerable amounts of damage and making them unable to check Urshifu consistently. Expecially on Fini's case, every chip damage dealt on it is mostly unrecoverable, being Fini reliable on the weak Draining Kiss for recovery.
Said defensive counterplay is also very easily exploitable and predictable, considering how every time it comes in Urshifu either forces a kill or a switch into said checks.
Similarly, Spectrier forces a Dark-type in every team, and, if not that, either SpDef Tran, Pex, Blissey and Ferro on a lot teams, which I would like to point out might even not enough if you happen to face Sub CM Wisp or Sub Disable in Pex and Blissey's case, or get Mud Shot on the switch in Heatran's case, or are chipped enough in both Heatran's and Ferro's case considering how Specs shadow ball deals 40% min to SpDef Ferro. I won't talk about stoss+sball Blissey because that set is straight up bad, or even mono sball blissey, because even if they beat Spectrier they lose to every other single mon in the tier. Most importantly, notice how every one of these mons gets OHKO by Urshifu.
My point regarding Spectrier is that while not being an over restrictive mon per se, and not ban worthy per se, considering that Urshifu is also in the tier, which also happens to beat every single one of the horse's checks and counters bar Mandibuzz, it suddenly becomes makes Spectrier look very close to broken. It also makes it very hard to build a team that feels fine against both of them without heavily compromizing some other very relevant match ups like the Magearna one, for example. Needless to say, this makes building a team that feels good in general, as in against most of what you can find in the meta, incredibly incredibly hard.
To wrap things up, at the current state of the game, I think that Urshifu is a very toxic presence in the metagame, not only because of its very restrict counterplay, all of which exploitable, if not by Urshifu himself, by its teammates, but because it forces teams into very akward choices that make them weak to the other offensive powerhouses in the metagame, thus making the Crown Tundra meta unhealthily more match up based than it needs to be.
I hope all of my points made sense and are well explained enough: I wanted to be as clear as possible as well as being not too lenghy about my points. Have a nice day! :]
I played a decent number of games during Phero's suspect and a few after the ban.
A conclusion i got from those games was that teambuilding in the current meta is so hard, especially because the Holy Trinity of Urshifu-SS, Spectrier and Magearna.
These Pokemon restrict a lot the process of building a viable team, because they force you to add a pokemon from a especific pool of mons. For example, Urshifu forces you to run Clef, Fini and Buzzwole but the first 2 can be lured and hitted by a strong PJab, making them shaky at checking Urshifu on the long run. And in Spectrier case, you need to run Dark-types and sometimes, that dark-type may have a suboptimal set to actually neuter it with all of its viable sets (I was forced to run Crunch+Rest on Tyranitar to prevent insta-lose). I'm not going to talk about Blissey because...it loses a ton of utility or the option to deal with other threats just to run Shadow Ball and hope that Spectrier doesn't have Disable, which is utterly atrocious for me.
In my opinion, Magearna is very problematic right now. It has a ton of sets, being Double Dance (SG+CM or ID+CM) and Specs very dangerous, and that diversity of sets limits a lot the potential defensive counterplay because you don't know what it will do. Also, it literally picks its checks and counters based on its expansive movepool, making build around it more easy. Also, it profits a lot from Urshifu, because it can setup on many Urshifu checks like the aforementioned Clef, Fini and Buzzwole, and enjoys Urshifu smacking steel-types for, allowing it to forgo coverage for steel-types and run something like Draining Kiss+Stored Power set, which is very threatening.
In my opinion, Urshifu should be suspect-tested without the object of suspect on the ladder ASAP and observe the development of the metagame without Urshifu on it. After that, if another mon is giving troubles, Council can hear the voice of the players through those great surveys to allow us to express how do we feel about the meta and potential problematics mons.
I was recently thinking about how Pheromosa limited teambuilding pretty horribly; you virtually had to run one of a small pool of Pokemon or you got punished horribly by it. Urshifu is basically in the same boat as Pheromosa in this regard though. Sucker Punch makes it challenging to consistently revenge kill, Fighting+Dark coverage makes it challenging to consistently switch in-to, and coverage deters a handful of other potential answers. You are virtually limited to running a bulky Fairy type like Clefable or Tapu Fini and praying not to run into a timely Poison Jab, running the decreasingly common Buzzwole, or hoping for it to be choiced and running a core like RH Toxapex + durable Dark resist (Mandibuzz, Roost Hydreigon, your own Urshifu, or Leftovers Magearna). With some timely plays or the right set, it can even pick all of these besides Buzzwole off, too.
An Urshifu paired with Future Sight + Teleport can potentially claim multiple kills no matter what the opponent does unless they try to cut off bulky Regenerator Pokemon upon entry repeatedly, which can easily backfire. Perhaps Urshifu is simply the best abuser of this dynamic in the metagame, but regardless of that I do not see a Slowbro or Future Sight suspect on the horizon and Urshifu as a whole seems pretty challenging to answer right now. Being able to deter things like Buzzwole or the occasional RH Tangrowth is pretty huge, too, as teams figure they are safe until Urshifu comes in with a Future Sighting incoming and there is absolutely nothing to switch in to that is not super risky.
On top of this, Urshifu has respectable physical bulk and decent enough speed to get in safely enough, especially when paired with Teleport or slow U-turn/Volt Switch, which is not exactly hard to integrate onto your teams in this metagame. I feel like the barrier to entry is low, the levels of counterplay are insufficient, and the convenience factor for a Pokemon with these qualities is far too high for Urshifu to be balanced right now. I believe it is the most pressing issue in the metagame as it stands.
With this said, I understand any and all complaints about Spectrier. It, too, can be a limiting Pokemon and I plan on posting more about it in the future.
I've been exploring cool underrated stuff here and there and came across this demon. Obstagoon has a pretty interesting typing in this metagame where it has the potential to shine. Now obviously Urishifu is the superior (and broken lol) Dark Type, but Obstagoon's move pool accommodates to just agitate balanced cores. It's essentially immune to Spectrier, one problematic mon in the metagame and doesn't care about Wisp. Worried about Flame Body or Static? Well pretty sure Flame Orb doesn't care either. The combination of Knock Off/Switcheroo means that you can manipulate item-dependent mons. Facade hits incredibly hard to non-resists, and then your opponent will also have to worry about the potential CC, which comes in handy against Steel types. I've been a fan of this mons pre-Home DLC and even though it faded during the DLC iterations, I think that Obstagoon as a niche place in the metagame and can throw teams off.
Urshifu has obviously been broken since day one but the general consensus was that we'd wait and see when the DLC is out, and now it is and it's even more stupid due to new tools and new limiting mons. almost every single team 1800+ seems to have this and it's getting not only monotonous but downright embarrassing that people have to rely on such broken strategies to win. and before any of you respond to that, just so you know, it's extremely clear how the majority of you users play with it that ur strategy is just to bully teams with urshifu to victory, which honestly isnt even a legitimate strategy at all, besides wish/teleport, no type of team synergy; and I thought the using lando as glue was pathethic. anyway, the sheer power this thing has + typing + the ability to break through protect and always crit has always been infuriating that it's around, but now it's gotten to the point where this game is pretty unfun to play. Oh, another game of urshifu + mage + spectrier + ace, so fun so great. love it yay, this is exactly what I am here for. At this point I think even the urshifu foot soldiers can't even deny that it's broken are just buying time before it gets banned for which I wrap up with: is there anyone legitimate that has any actual point on why it should not be quickbanned?
Urshifu has obviously been broken since day one but the general consensus was that we'd wait and see when the DLC is out, and now it is and it's even more stupid due to new tools and new limiting mons. almost every single team 1800+ seems to have this and it's getting not only monotonous but downright embarrassing that people have to rely on such broken strategies to win. and before any of you respond to that, just so you know, it's extremely clear how the majority of you users play with it that ur strategy is just to bully teams with urshifu to victory, which honestly isnt even a legitimate strategy at all, besides wish/teleport, no type of team synergy; and I thought the using lando as glue was pathethic. anyway, the sheer power this thing has + typing + the ability to break through protect and always crit has always been infuriating that it's around, but now it's gotten to the point where this game is pretty unfun to play. Oh, another game of urshifu + mage + spectrier + ace, so fun so great. love it yay, this is exactly what I am here for. At this point I think even the urshifu foot soldiers can't even deny that it's broken are just buying time before it gets banned for which I wrap up with: is there anyone legitimate that has any actual point on why it should not be quickbanned?
One point. It makes stall hilariously trivial. Between Future Sight pressure plus Close Combat from Urshifu makes stall non existent. From my experience facing teams that were considered stall, just clicking buttons in FS and bringing in Urshifu is a delight and seeing Toxapex struggle to take this combination is just something I needed from the horrors Pex brought me in gen 7. But maybe that's even more proof that Urshifu should be banned soooo
In the comments of the tiering survey, it did not receive even close to enough mentions to be in the quickban discussion. Unlike the things we have quickbanned, there are actual counters that handle every set it uses and the metagame is clearly playable with it in the tier. I agree that Urshifu is broken and I was the reason this topic was brought up to begin with, but this is about as clear of a suspect as it gets. There is not enough support for a quickban, there is nowhere near enough justification from the council to warrant not having the community vote on it, and there is no reason to rush the process for the sake of catering to your personal agenda, which is not representative of the entire playerbase.
I understand your passion for the metagame and I appreciate you sharing your opinions as always, but a quickban here would be unreasonable.
To be fair, the quickbans that happened were even more broken and problematic than Urshifu and I don't think it was even in the Kyurem and Zygarde survey to begin with. At any rate, I do think this thing should be suspected sometime soon
Urshifu is absolutely ridiculous and lacks pretty much any notable flaws whatsoever, even when compared to the other stupid pokemon currently running around. Its reasonably quick, doesn't have to rely on inaccurate moves at all, really only has to choose between a pool of like 4-5 moves (Fairy Coverage, Stabs, U-turn, Sucker, Bulk Up) regardless of the set at hand, pretty much fits on everything with minimal effort, has shaky counterplay across the board besides Buzzwole/Gweez and they're honestly pretty bad on 90% of teams, is genuinely really hard to KO or offensively pressure safely without like a fairy, completely thrashes every playstyle out there on paper and does very consistently in practice, and all while barely needing to predict at all because its stabs chunk everything for 30-40% at worst.
I think you can argue something like Spect is worse for encouraging the use of downright unviable mons to not get bodied, or Magearna/Ace is worse because they truly lack any consistent counterplay period due to their extreme set diversity and power, but imo Urshifu is seriously just the full package. It never stops being a constant threat, in the builder or in play. Pretty much nothing is spared from its mix of immediate power, unpredictability, and restriction.
Get this braindead garbage out of here already good god, I can't wait for its inevitable suspect. I won't deny the mons fun af to use but you can only face Slowbro+Urshifu+Magearna/Cinderace so many times before you start to get extremely unmotivated to bother building for or playing against it. Also just saying I wanted this mon or Spect gone before Mosa tbh >->
I'm honestly not sure if you are trying to say it should be quickbanned despite this or not, but just to explain myself a bit more to put the topic to bed (not trying to single you out or anything as everyone is entitled to post ofc): Yes, I acknowledged this in my last post -- Urshifu did not get its own question in the survey. It may not have been listed in the survey, but as I said in my last post, hardly anyone (of the 3000+ people responding) mentioned it in the comments. Everyone had the chance to respond with other things to look into and >1000 people took us up on this, but Urshifu was not brought up often. I read through every response and there were a solid handful that included it, but not enough to gain traction at that point. This could mean one of a few things:
Urshifu was not yet broken then --> Urshifu has only been banworthy for a brief period of time, so a suspect makes the most sense to make sure this is not a kneejerk reaction.
Urshifu was broken then, but other Pokemon overshadowed it --> If Urshifu was not one of the most pressing Pokemon and there was no tangible evidence to prove it being a longstanding issue in the metagae, then a suspect makes more sense than a quickban naturally (similar reason to first point).
People simply forgot about Urshifu and it actually has been quickban worthy this whole time --> This seems highly unlikely given how many people responded.
Unless the third point is the case AND there is some additional evidence we have seen that proves Urshifu to be more problematic than perceived, then a suspect makes much more sense to me than a quickban.
I encourage more discussion about Urshifu and other potential problems in the metagame, but nothing is going to be quickbanned in the immediate future. Suspect tests are more likely on the horizon for things we deem problematic.
Phazer Swampert is actually a pretty good set
Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Scald/Earthquake/Toxic
- Roar
- Flip Turn
- Stealth Rock
EVs is to help against Nidoking. You can go full SpDef to help handle double dance mage better. Anyways I do believe that this set has some merit to it. It has a good synergy with FS mons as it forces switches that want to switch into FS using roar and then having another mon take the brunt of the hit of FS. This set also helps in soft checking CM Suicune which is rising somewhat. And of course with roar, it helps in always chipping down the enemy little by little until the breaker/sweeper can just come in and kill everything. You can definitely use Hippo over Pert but it comes at the cost of not being able to bring in your Breaker or Sweeper easier.
Finchinator I think your second point is the case and that Urshifu was just overlooked during the time. I mean, Zygarde and Kyurem was still allowed and were the most broken thing ever, so much that other pokemon like Pheromosa never really got to be explored that much since why would you ever use something that isn't one of those two in the first place. Not to mention that Buzzwall, the best counter to those two, also has the benefit of walling every non flying type physical attacker, Urshifu included. On the third point, it might be true but on the other hand, everyone's top priority in the game was getting rid of Zygarde and Kyurem, or Genesect and Naganadel if we count that so it was probably forgotten in their shadow. But yeah, I do think dark Urshifu should be suspect tested as it is even more brain dead to use since you just spam one move and that's it. It seems to be getting more and more support for a suspect with each passing day as far as I've noticed
Can someone enlighten me as to what these actual counters are? Outside of Buzzwole, and the meme Tapu Koko set posted on here the other day (you still lose in the longrun if they Poison Jab), I haven't found one. You don't even need Future Sight, it breaks everything anyway! The only counterplay I have found is using a Regen user to tank the initial hit, and then switching to something that doesn't get 2hkoed by the move it locks itself into. I shouldn't need to dedicate two mons to counter one, yet I find I have to! If there is some secret obvious counter I have missed, please let me know. Otherwise you have a 50% chance of losing a mon every time it comes in. It seems to me that most people's answer to Urshifu is their own Urshifu, ready to take a choice locked Wicked Blow, and ready to initiate the same process from their own end.
So many games divolve into Urshifu breaking your core with a 50% 'prediction' (guess), tanking one hit at some point in the game so it's on around 20% health, and then being around at the end to pick off anything faster than it with Sucker Punch. Anything faster than Urshifu has to either resist or take a CB Sucker Punch, and there aren't many that fit the bill. I hate assessing an end game, and realising that it's all going to come down to 50% Urshifu Sucker Punch guesses. Pretty much all games against Urshifu end up like this.
What are people using that 'actually' counters this?
The point was that things like Zygarde and Kyurem-Black had ways to bypass virtually everything while staying within the realm of convenience. Buzzwole and Weezing-G handle all the Urshifu you see while common Pokemon like Fini, Clef, and Koko can play a realistic part in checking it. That differentiates Urshifu from being quickban worthy. It’s still suspect- and ban-worthy imo, but it’s a clear step back from things we quickbanned.
Also, Urshifu hardly ever leads to true 50/50s in practice. They’re almost always heavily weighted and with one side being semi-manageable. It’s still too strong to actually check repeatedly for many teams, but you’re overselling it and this is coming from the dude who wanted it suspected first to begin with in this thread.
I'm not particularly great at maths, or this game - although I have had a decent amount of ladder success over (too many) years of playing this game, to the point that I'd like to think I've got the experience to know what I'm talking about. I'm not sure there's any seemingly regular mon I've faced that's as oppresive as Urshifu. A common scenario I find, is that my opponent gets a free switch into their CB Urshifu early in the game.
I have say, Heatran out, they get a switchin to Urshifu.
I'm not using Weezing or Buzzwole, but have a Clef on my team, for the sake of example.
If I stay in with Heatran, I'm at best going to take 70%+ from Wicked Blow if they play safe, and I can't KO Urshifu in return. If I do this I can't beat their Magearna later on, so that's not a good option. (I have tried this in the past and have subsequently lost to Magearna). Not to mention they might just KO me with CC!
Now since I'm not using Weezing or Buzzwole, my best shot at tanking the hit is probably Clef, however if they Poison Jab I lose Clef for the rest of the game, and any chance of switching into Urshifu ever again safely. If this happens, I'm likely just to lose since Urshifu continues picking up KOs every time it comes in. This is the '50/50' scenario I'm referring to in my previous post. The odds are variable, but the guess work risk/reward often favours the Urshifu player in my experience.
I appreciate it isn't a true 50/50 and I am overselling it- there are lots of variables here. But since I like absolutes, I often end up sacking something so I can get a free switch into Clef to guarantee not instantly losing my Urshifu check (and likely the game) and having the ability to (temporarily) force it out. This decision might explain why I struggle with it so much, but I think others will resonate with the scenario.
There are only so many dark resists you can use on one team, and a lot of games inevitably reach a point where you run out of swithins to CB Wicked Blow, and Urshifu is still there with Sucker Punch at the end to pick off anything faster than it.
Either way, we both think it's broken so I won't say any more! I'm glad that the 'actual' counters are limited to Buzzwole and Weezing though, I think that tells you all you need to know.
In the comments of the tiering survey, it did not receive even close to enough mentions to be in the quickban discussion. Unlike the things we have quickbanned, there are actual counters that handle every set it uses and the metagame is clearly playable with it in the tier. I agree that Urshifu is broken and I was the reason this topic was brought up to begin with, but this is about as clear of a suspect as it gets. There is not enough support for a quickban, there is nowhere near enough justification from the council to warrant not having the community vote on it, and there is no reason to rush the process for the sake of catering to your personal agenda, which is not representative of the entire playerbase.
I understand your passion for the metagame and I appreciate you sharing your opinions as always, but a quickban here would be unreasonable.
while I do thank yall for actually doing an open survey it's unfair to say that people didnt manually enter it in much because thats not how these things work. I do some of this type of stuff ofr work and people are incredibly lazy, and any barrier of entry are going to lose a significant number of people since it wasnt even on the main and people had to enter it manually at the end, so you cant make that inference. there are a lot of famous examples of this (some are truly hilarious) so wont go into it anymore but is It possible to do a survey on if it should be quick banned directly and ask that?
The time it would take to organize a survey, get the results, and quickban if it received enough support would take longer than an actual suspect. I’d rather we just suspect Urshifu soon and let the people decide through that
the next survey probably won’t be for another month or two if we stick to schedule anyway
The time it would take to organize a survey, get the results, and quickban if it received enough support would take longer than an actual suspect. I’d rather we just suspect Urshifu soon and let the people decide through that
the next survey probably won’t be for another month or two if we stick to schedule anyway
When would the next suspect actually be happening, do you think? I’m assuming based on what’s been said, that it’d be for Urshifu as opposed to Magearna or Spectrier?
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