Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Gomi

was fun
is a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor
Urshifu is absolutely ridiculous and lacks pretty much any notable flaws whatsoever, even when compared to the other stupid pokemon currently running around. Its reasonably quick, doesn't have to rely on inaccurate moves at all, really only has to choose between a pool of like 4-5 moves (Fairy Coverage, Stabs, U-turn, Sucker, Bulk Up) regardless of the set at hand, pretty much fits on everything with minimal effort, has shaky counterplay across the board besides Buzzwole/Gweez and they're honestly pretty bad on 90% of teams, is genuinely really hard to KO or offensively pressure safely without like a fairy, completely thrashes every playstyle out there on paper and does very consistently in practice, and all while barely needing to predict at all because its stabs chunk everything for 30-40% at worst.
I think you can argue something like Spect is worse for encouraging the use of downright unviable mons to not get bodied, or Magearna/Ace is worse because they truly lack any consistent counterplay period due to their extreme set diversity and power, but imo Urshifu is seriously just the full package. It never stops being a constant threat, in the builder or in play. Pretty much nothing is spared from its mix of immediate power, unpredictability, and restriction.

Get this braindead garbage out of here already good god, I can't wait for its inevitable suspect. I won't deny the mons fun af to use but you can only face Slowbro+Urshifu+Magearna/Cinderace so many times before you start to get extremely unmotivated to bother building for or playing against it. Also just saying I wanted this mon or Spect gone before Mosa tbh >->
 

Finchinator

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To be fair, the quickbans that happened were even more broken and problematic than Urshifu
This proves my point; Urshifu is not on par with the other quickbanned Pokemon and should be suspected.

and I don't think it was even in the Kyurem and Zygarde survey to begin with. At any rate, I do think this thing should be suspected sometime soon
I'm honestly not sure if you are trying to say it should be quickbanned despite this or not, but just to explain myself a bit more to put the topic to bed (not trying to single you out or anything as everyone is entitled to post ofc): Yes, I acknowledged this in my last post -- Urshifu did not get its own question in the survey. It may not have been listed in the survey, but as I said in my last post, hardly anyone (of the 3000+ people responding) mentioned it in the comments. Everyone had the chance to respond with other things to look into and >1000 people took us up on this, but Urshifu was not brought up often. I read through every response and there were a solid handful that included it, but not enough to gain traction at that point. This could mean one of a few things:
  • Urshifu was not yet broken then --> Urshifu has only been banworthy for a brief period of time, so a suspect makes the most sense to make sure this is not a kneejerk reaction.
  • Urshifu was broken then, but other Pokemon overshadowed it --> If Urshifu was not one of the most pressing Pokemon and there was no tangible evidence to prove it being a longstanding issue in the metagae, then a suspect makes more sense than a quickban naturally (similar reason to first point).
  • People simply forgot about Urshifu and it actually has been quickban worthy this whole time --> This seems highly unlikely given how many people responded.
Unless the third point is the case AND there is some additional evidence we have seen that proves Urshifu to be more problematic than perceived, then a suspect makes much more sense to me than a quickban.

I encourage more discussion about Urshifu and other potential problems in the metagame, but nothing is going to be quickbanned in the immediate future. Suspect tests are more likely on the horizon for things we deem problematic.
 
Phazer Swampert is actually a pretty good set
Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Scald/Earthquake/Toxic
- Roar
- Flip Turn
- Stealth Rock
EVs is to help against Nidoking. You can go full SpDef to help handle double dance mage better. Anyways I do believe that this set has some merit to it. It has a good synergy with FS mons as it forces switches that want to switch into FS using roar and then having another mon take the brunt of the hit of FS. This set also helps in soft checking CM Suicune which is rising somewhat. And of course with roar, it helps in always chipping down the enemy little by little until the breaker/sweeper can just come in and kill everything. You can definitely use Hippo over Pert but it comes at the cost of not being able to bring in your Breaker or Sweeper easier.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Finchinator I think your second point is the case and that Urshifu was just overlooked during the time. I mean, Zygarde and Kyurem was still allowed and were the most broken thing ever, so much that other pokemon like Pheromosa never really got to be explored that much since why would you ever use something that isn't one of those two in the first place. Not to mention that Buzzwall, the best counter to those two, also has the benefit of walling every non flying type physical attacker, Urshifu included. On the third point, it might be true but on the other hand, everyone's top priority in the game was getting rid of Zygarde and Kyurem, or Genesect and Naganadel if we count that so it was probably forgotten in their shadow. But yeah, I do think dark Urshifu should be suspect tested as it is even more brain dead to use since you just spam one move and that's it. It seems to be getting more and more support for a suspect with each passing day as far as I've noticed
 
On Urshifu:

Unlike the things we have quickbanned, there are actual counters that handle every set it uses.
Can someone enlighten me as to what these actual counters are? Outside of Buzzwole, and the meme Tapu Koko set posted on here the other day (you still lose in the longrun if they Poison Jab), I haven't found one. You don't even need Future Sight, it breaks everything anyway! The only counterplay I have found is using a Regen user to tank the initial hit, and then switching to something that doesn't get 2hkoed by the move it locks itself into. I shouldn't need to dedicate two mons to counter one, yet I find I have to! If there is some secret obvious counter I have missed, please let me know. Otherwise you have a 50% chance of losing a mon every time it comes in. It seems to me that most people's answer to Urshifu is their own Urshifu, ready to take a choice locked Wicked Blow, and ready to initiate the same process from their own end.

So many games divolve into Urshifu breaking your core with a 50% 'prediction' (guess), tanking one hit at some point in the game so it's on around 20% health, and then being around at the end to pick off anything faster than it with Sucker Punch. Anything faster than Urshifu has to either resist or take a CB Sucker Punch, and there aren't many that fit the bill. I hate assessing an end game, and realising that it's all going to come down to 50% Urshifu Sucker Punch guesses. Pretty much all games against Urshifu end up like this.

What are people using that 'actually' counters this?
 

Finchinator

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The point was that things like Zygarde and Kyurem-Black had ways to bypass virtually everything while staying within the realm of convenience. Buzzwole and Weezing-G handle all the Urshifu you see while common Pokemon like Fini, Clef, and Koko can play a realistic part in checking it. That differentiates Urshifu from being quickban worthy. It’s still suspect- and ban-worthy imo, but it’s a clear step back from things we quickbanned.

Also, Urshifu hardly ever leads to true 50/50s in practice. They’re almost always heavily weighted and with one side being semi-manageable. It’s still too strong to actually check repeatedly for many teams, but you’re overselling it and this is coming from the dude who wanted it suspected first to begin with in this thread.
 
I'm not particularly great at maths, or this game - although I have had a decent amount of ladder success over (too many) years of playing this game, to the point that I'd like to think I've got the experience to know what I'm talking about. I'm not sure there's any seemingly regular mon I've faced that's as oppresive as Urshifu. A common scenario I find, is that my opponent gets a free switch into their CB Urshifu early in the game.

I have say, Heatran out, they get a switchin to Urshifu.
I'm not using Weezing or Buzzwole, but have a Clef on my team, for the sake of example.
If I stay in with Heatran, I'm at best going to take 70%+ from Wicked Blow if they play safe, and I can't KO Urshifu in return. If I do this I can't beat their Magearna later on, so that's not a good option. (I have tried this in the past and have subsequently lost to Magearna). Not to mention they might just KO me with CC!
Now since I'm not using Weezing or Buzzwole, my best shot at tanking the hit is probably Clef, however if they Poison Jab I lose Clef for the rest of the game, and any chance of switching into Urshifu ever again safely. If this happens, I'm likely just to lose since Urshifu continues picking up KOs every time it comes in. This is the '50/50' scenario I'm referring to in my previous post. The odds are variable, but the guess work risk/reward often favours the Urshifu player in my experience.

I appreciate it isn't a true 50/50 and I am overselling it- there are lots of variables here. But since I like absolutes, I often end up sacking something so I can get a free switch into Clef to guarantee not instantly losing my Urshifu check (and likely the game) and having the ability to (temporarily) force it out. This decision might explain why I struggle with it so much, but I think others will resonate with the scenario.

There are only so many dark resists you can use on one team, and a lot of games inevitably reach a point where you run out of swithins to CB Wicked Blow, and Urshifu is still there with Sucker Punch at the end to pick off anything faster than it.

Either way, we both think it's broken so I won't say any more! I'm glad that the 'actual' counters are limited to Buzzwole and Weezing though, I think that tells you all you need to know.
 

Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
In the comments of the tiering survey, it did not receive even close to enough mentions to be in the quickban discussion. Unlike the things we have quickbanned, there are actual counters that handle every set it uses and the metagame is clearly playable with it in the tier. I agree that Urshifu is broken and I was the reason this topic was brought up to begin with, but this is about as clear of a suspect as it gets. There is not enough support for a quickban, there is nowhere near enough justification from the council to warrant not having the community vote on it, and there is no reason to rush the process for the sake of catering to your personal agenda, which is not representative of the entire playerbase.

I understand your passion for the metagame and I appreciate you sharing your opinions as always, but a quickban here would be unreasonable.
while I do thank yall for actually doing an open survey it's unfair to say that people didnt manually enter it in much because thats not how these things work. I do some of this type of stuff ofr work and people are incredibly lazy, and any barrier of entry are going to lose a significant number of people since it wasnt even on the main and people had to enter it manually at the end, so you cant make that inference. there are a lot of famous examples of this (some are truly hilarious) so wont go into it anymore but is It possible to do a survey on if it should be quick banned directly and ask that?
 

Finchinator

Harry's House
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The time it would take to organize a survey, get the results, and quickban if it received enough support would take longer than an actual suspect. I’d rather we just suspect Urshifu soon and let the people decide through that

the next survey probably won’t be for another month or two if we stick to schedule anyway
 
The time it would take to organize a survey, get the results, and quickban if it received enough support would take longer than an actual suspect. I’d rather we just suspect Urshifu soon and let the people decide through that

the next survey probably won’t be for another month or two if we stick to schedule anyway
When would the next suspect actually be happening, do you think? I’m assuming based on what’s been said, that it’d be for Urshifu as opposed to Magearna or Spectrier?
 
I just gotta say. From a totally unbiased point of view that I support the ban on Urshifu for it's incredible breaking power, the fact that with Future sight it's one true wall Buzzwole can't beat it and that I fucking hate running Clef and don't feel like I should have to run a single mon to succeed.

It definitely doesn't have to do with the fact that I play sand. That Urshifu ducks sand completely without Clef/Buzz and that sand will become unbelievable when not having to worry about banded sucker punches 1hkoing Exca from 90% and Zolt from 80% it definitely doesnt't have to do with that at all!
 
I can’t give a specific answer to this as the answer is not yet known, but I personally will be pushing for it — an Urshifu test — in the immediate future.
Sorry if this isn't the type of question to ask here. But is it possible to suspect two or more mons at the same time? Specifically, thinking Spectrier, Urshifu, and maybe Magearna. It's been stated several times throughout the thread, but basically those mons are heavy teambuilding constraints, can bs their way through their checks/counters (especially in a meta where defensive checks can get overloaded easily), and/or snowball out of control after they get a kill.

A lot of the frustration I imagine probably comes from the slowness from suspecting 1 mon at a time. But of course, I get it if anyone has reservations to doing it like this. But while it's true that the meta can change drastically with the banning of either Urshifu or Spectrier, I don't think getting rid of one will change the meta to make the other any less broken.

Just a thought though. I get it if it isn't feasible.

---

Anyway, I agree with many people here in that Urshifu, Magearna and Spectrier should be suspected (and banned). It's true that certain mons can stop them in theory. But it doesn't always end up like that when you're actually in the game and in their face. Defensive answers are likely worn down by hazards/chip by the time a smart player brings in Magearna or Spectrier, to the point where they can break past and snowball. Urshifu's few answers aren't all that consistent, especially if paired with Future Sight support. And to add insult to injury, most of the Urshifu checks aside from Clefable and Tapu Koko aren't all that splashable.

It sucks having to prep for these guys in the teambuilding phase because they force a specific (and typically non-splashable) set of mons on you. And even then, I don't ever feel comfortable when I'm facing a Urshifu, Magearna or Spectrier because none of their answers are consistent over the course of the game.
 
I can’t give a specific answer to this as the answer is not yet known, but I personally will be pushing for it — an Urshifu test — in the immediate future.
I don't know about you guys, but I've personally never been this excited/motivated to partake in a suspect test, even though I know the ban is almost guaranteed. I personally think Urshifu was worse than Pheromosa, and possibly the most obnoxious mon to build around in my most recent memory, even worse than Gen 6 Gothitelle.

If it can't be quickbanned, than so be it, lets get this suspect test going so I can finally don't have to dedicate 4 slots on my team to counter ace/urshifu/magearna/spectrier.
 

Finchinator

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Sorry if this isn't the type of question to ask here. But is it possible to suspect two or more mons at the same time?
Possible, yes, but not ideal. The overlap can skew the suspect and this has happened in the past. When it’s not absolutely dire, extreme circumstances, double suspects are best to avoid. We are not in a rush to drastically change the metagame either, so we shall do it in a fashion that allows us to practice tiering to the best of our abilities and for the best interest of the playerbase.

Also, just a reminder that this isn’t exactly a Q&A thread; simple questions can go in the SQSA and complex ones you can PM me anytime friends.
 
I’m on team suspect multiple mons at the same time and quit wasting time. Like it’s blatantly clear there are large amounts of issues so why not do a mage + soectruer + urshifu test. It’s not like
That are dependent on each other
Because not everyone has the same opinions on those mons, one person may want all 3 banned while another wants only 2, 1, or none of the 3 banned. Like Finch said, the overlap can skew the suspect, most likely changing the result compared to if they were suspected separately.
 

Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
why not just cast votes In batch independently? Why do y’all act like when you vote in real life you don’t vote on 20 things at once like what the fuck are y’all talking about lol. This isn’t a complicated problem. And as for the Magearna thing, I’m just gonna say. It’s obviously broken this isn’t something that can really be argued if I’m being honest. Literally just go back and read the past posts on it when it was banned before and nothing has changed. Sorry if I’m coming off as harsh but that’s just really how it is. And as far as effects on the metagame other games do mass bans as well that are far more complex so I really don’t see an issue. However I is I’ll concede that not everyone has my point of view so I’ll let it go for now.
 
Either way ya'll doing this suspect test, I'll literally jump with joy when we get these immense threats out of the way.

The main issue for me is how Spec/Magear/Ace/Shifu SS limits your options just to handle them. Do I have to run Koko and Clef to take on Urshifu? Do I have to run Blissey/Chansey to deal with Spectrier? These four destroy stall, but that doesn't get rid of stall. It just makes desperate checks and counters more of a need to put on a team. That makes teambuilding a little straining as if you don't run a necessary block, then you could risk losing the game.

I don't play a whole lot of OU, but I have seen lot of battles in the format. And I gotta say, it's not fun watching one mon potentially sweep because Player A forgot to add a necessary check to one of the Four...
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Thunder Pwoell probably the part where this is a forum. I mean, when you vote irl, you usually don't get to say anything and in the long run, it's just one vote and you won't be able to change a stranger's mind due to lack of discussion. But here, you can actually get some discussion going so that's probably why they don't wanna suspect more than one thing. Also, irl votes like the ones in politics have about half a year for people to gather their thoughts while here you only have like a couple weeks. That's just what I think anyway so don't really know if it's true or maybe just me being cynical

Speaking of suspects, do moves also get suspected or are the suspect tests restricted only to pokemon?
 
Speaking of suspects, do moves also get suspected or are the suspect tests restricted only to pokemon?
judging by Baton Pass and Swagger, moves can be too. As can abilities
god regenerator sucks ass to face. makes already bulky pokemon ludicrous, but since no singular pokemon uses it, and instead two or three (Tox, Slowbro, maybe Slowking iirc), it'd have to be the ability thats suspected, like Arena Trap or somethin
 
judging by Baton Pass and Swagger, moves can be too. As can abilities
god regenerator sucks ass to face. makes already bulky pokemon ludicrous, but since no singular pokemon uses it, and instead two or three (Tox, Slowbro, maybe Slowking iirc), it'd have to be the ability thats suspected, like Arena Trap or somethin
Unfortunately it's very hard to prove that an ability is broken, because ability bans affect every tier if its banned in OU. I personally think that regenerator is overpowered, but its highly unlikely it would be banned because it's nowhere near as busted as trapping abilities/moody
 
POV you forgot to run Buzzwole:


Urshifu is busted and it all starts with it's dumbass signature move. Now that Zygarde is gone, effectively taking 1k Arrows with it (sorry zydog,) Wicked Blow (not sexual) is probably the best attack in the game. A base 80 dark STAB attack is good but then you realize its fun gimmick is that it is a guaranteed crit. I cannot stress enough how fucking stupid that is. This means often means that running a dark resist simply isn't enough because it just crits it. And that's the problem with Urshifu. Its ability to use Wicked Blow to muscle through would-be resists severely limits defensive counterplay. Buzzwole reliably checks it. Clefable can sometimes, but Shifu can just poison jab it. But you know what Buzwole can't wall? Future Sight. Shifu paired with FS is virtually unstoppable because FS will either break through Buzzwole or force it out. To be fair, due to it's solid but not scary speed tier, there is more offensive counterplay than something like Phero or Spectrier. Fast fairies slaughter it and cinderace can eat a sucker punch at full health and OHKO it with HJK. However, the lack of defensive counterplay, I feel, is unhealthy for the tier. I'll leave you with this bit of Alabama bear exploitation law:

A person commits the offense of unlawful bear exploitation if he or she knowingly does any one of the following:
(1) Promotes, engages in, or is employed at a bear wrestling match.
(2) Receives money for the admission of another person to a place kept for bear wrestling.
(3) Sells, purchases, possesses, or trains a bear for bear wrestling.

I think smogon should go the way of Alabama and ban the bear.
 
To be fair, due to it's solid but not scary speed tier, there is more offensive counterplay than something like Phero or Spectrier. Fast fairies slaughter it and cinderace can eat a sucker punch at full health and OHKO it with HJK. However, the lack of defensive counterplay, I feel, is unhealthy for the tier.
i like how there's actually options to defeat it, and people still get in a twist. Anything that resists its stabs and can fire back, or even just live a SP and threaten death, is a potential check, much less overpower it like said fast fairies and shit. Defensively it punches a hole, but that's not the only way to play, especially with the HO core of UrSpectGear, or strong offense like Cinderace, Nidoking, etc. I dont get the unhealthy part, but that might just be my bias.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Seems like even with Pheromosa ban, it didn't really affect Urshifu since it's still broken as shit and Pheromosa can't even reliably check it since cockroaches dies quickly. Really is true that every single day, dark Urshifu gets more support for a suspect. If it does get support, would it actually be possible to suspect it before the year ends or when the new year starts? I mean, just about everyone agrees that it is the most brain dead thing in existence

Since moves can also be suspected, maybe future sight should be suspected too. Even if Urshifu gets banned, other pokemon can still take its place to abuse the sight to get favorable match ups
 

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