Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
what have you guys been using on rain lately? I've been wanting to try it out some more, just looking for some ideas on how to make a really effective rain
On my own rain team, I have a max hp and max def Pelipper and Ferrothorn, specially defensive Swampert, band Barracuda, specs Keldeo and np Tornadus Therian. It's the only consistent rain team that I've ever built. There's room for changes but I just prefer what I call a 'standard rain structure' that consists with the first four mons as those always yield me consistent results. The fifth slot can be any bird that has hurricane or thunder, or both while the last one is anything with a water type move, thunder or hurricane
 
what have you guys been using on rain lately? I've been wanting to try it out some more, just looking for some ideas on how to make a really effective rain
Peli is the only one that's consistent on rain. After that, mons I've tried in rain are Magearna, Ferro, Pert, Seis, Zap, Torn, Barra, Daunt, LO Kingdra (Specs feels bad a bit), Chomp, Blissey (mostly for Kyurem, Rocks, Pivot), RapidShifu(?), Thundy T. Could try Glowking jut cuz fuck Pex
 

ViZar

cringe skill issue
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Like the last time we had a survey, I'd like to share my thoughts on the Pokémon in question.


:ss/cinderace:
How do you feel about Cinderace?
I gave it a 4 out 5 rating. The combination of it's speed, attack, movepool, ability and Heavy-Duty Boots boost it to the top and make it a force to reckon with. It has very few checks and it can take advantage of them via its moves. U-Turn can be easily spammed against Toxapex and Slowbro and provide momentum. Of course Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin Garchomp punish this idea, however from that point onward, Cinderace doesn't have to use U-Turn.
Gunk Shot can potentially screw up Slowbro, Toxapex can be 1v1 when it packs Zen Headbutt and Garchomp has no recovery and is forced to rest. You could argue that it has a 4MSS, since it needs to run Pyro Ball and U-Turn. From there on it has to decide between Gunk Shot (for fairies and poison on Slowbro), High Jump Kick (for Blissey and Tyranitar), Zen Headbutt (for Toxapex) and Sucker Punch (for faster Pokémon). Electro Ball is also something that can consider putting on your Cinderace since it can screw up its water type checks, which can even be boosted by Electric Terrain provided by a great teammate in Tapu Koko.
Speaking of which, it's true that it has a 4MSS, but it teammates can help it to deal with it. Spikes can help with Toxapex and so does Future Sight. As mentioned Koko can help it with its Water type checks and Garchomp can deal with bulky Pokémon that weak to ground while Cinderace can help it to deal with Skarmory, Corviknight and the fairies.
While many people would like to have a Magearna suspect, I would say that Cinderace is more of a thread and more restricting. Cinder doesn't have the immediate power of Magearna, but it is faster and can deal with faster Pokémon without set up. Life Orb sets give Cinderace more power, but being honest LO Cinderace sucks. You looses longevity due to its Stealth Rock weakness and Life Orb chip, while Rocky Helmet and Rough just reduce your chances of getting in. Heavy-Duty Boots are just better and on more reason, why it is difficult to deal with.

:ss/magearna:
How do you feel about Magearna?
While I said that Cinderace is more restricting, doesn't mean that Magearna is less of a threat. It has a great typing, stats and ability with a very wide movepool. You don't know what set it runs, until one of your Pokémon is severely damaged or KOed. Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Shift Gear, Calm Mind sets and many more are difficult to deal with since you don't what Pokémon of your team can check it.
Ground types can deal with it, but when it Shift Gears on the Switch or has already set up it can just Ice Beam your Nidoking, Garchomp or Landorus-Therian, while something like Swampert who isn't weak to Ice can dealt with via Fleur Cannon. Heatran resists it's Stabs and has the bulk to tank its other moves, assuming it doesn't have Aura Sphere or Focus Blast. Toxapex can clear its boosts with Haze, but when Magearna is running Thunderbolt, it is lights out.
When provided with status, hazards or screens support, it can steamroll through teams without much effort. One lucky turn, prediction or otherwise a free turn can immediatly make the game a downhill battle. There is some counterplay though, Latios can prevent it from switching in, because of Mystical Fire, while the many U-Turn, Volt Switch, Flip Turn and Teleport users can bring in a Ground or Fire type against it, so they can take advantage of a Magearna that doesn't set up yet and is probably slower. I still think think that we should consider it for a suspect, but I think Cinderace should be our top priority right now. 4 out of 5 ranking.

:ss/toxapex:
How do you feel about Toxapex? 2 Not Broken
Toxapex isn't as much of an annoyance as it was in DLC1. There are Pokémon that can easily take advantage of it and there's some counterplay to it. Cinderace, Magearna, Volcarona are potentially Pokémon that it can check and beat however they have moves to threaten Toxapex with or they can take advantage of it via U-Turn and Volt Switch. Strong Ground types like Garchomp, Landorus-T, Nidoking and strong Electric types like Tapu Koko and Zapdos are common, useful and beat Toxapex or they can set up, lay Stealth Rock, pivot or dent the opponents other Pokémon. The presence of psychics like Tapu Lele, Slowking-G, Slowbro and Latios doesn't help much.
It's still a great Pokémon, don't get me wrong. It has great bulk, Regenerator and fantastic moves in Haze, Knock Off, Scald, Toxic and much more. It isn't the splashable wall, it's used to be. I gave it a 2 out of 5 Ranking.

:ss/tornadus-therian:
How do you feel about Tornadus-T?
I gave it a 1 rating, but after some games I would consider givint it a 2 rating. Tornadus-T doesn't have Roost like the other birds, but thanks to HDB and Regenerator it can stay healthy throughout a game. Its speed and utility options in Defog, U-Turn, Taunt and Knock Off make a solid Pokémon that's worth to take account for. Nasty Plot is a scary set, however the problem is that you have to rely on inaccurate moves to deal damage, but it gets the job done. It's speed makes it fantastic too. It pairs really well with other Regenerators like Slowking-Galar, Slowbro and Toxapex. I can see how it might be frustrating, but I'm not convinced that it is broken or restrictive. My opinion might change in the future, but that's how I feel for Tornadus-T right now.

:ss/slowbro::ss/blissey:
How do you feel about Teleport? 3 Not Sure
I would give it a 3 out of 5. Teleport isn't broken per se, but the main abusers of it make it frustrating to deal with. Slowbro checks a few physical attackers and with Regenerator, it can heal of the damage, while getting a Pokémon like Cinderace in safely. Blissey checks almost all special attackers reliably and it can spread status, set-up Stealth Rock or it can just Teleport out of battle. Clefable can Teleport into a teammate and heal it with Wish, but I'm not sure if it is that good right now. Overall, I think that Teleport that is worth looking at, but not now.

:ss/zamazenta-crowned:
Should we consider unbanning Zamazenta-C?
Last Survey I gave it a 5 rating, meaning I think that it should absolutely be considered for a test, but now I gave it a 3 rating. After thinking for a while, it doesn't feel right to unleash it for OU yet. After some time where the Meta has stabilised, we could consider testing it. I look forward for it in the future.

:ss/darmanitan-galar:
Should we consider unbanning Darmanitan-G?
1 out of 5, absolutely not. It basically has Choice Scarf and Choice Band equip or with a CB it has a nuclear attack stat. With this Pokémon every battle becomes a prediction play, but even if you resist its attack, it still leaves devastating damage. Plus it has U-Turn which is really spammable. Sure it has a Stealth Rock weakness, but there are reliable ways to get rid of them and starting at 76% health doesn't matter when it's a late game scenario where you can just stay in and click one move. Rotom-Wash and Rotom-Heat resist all of its attacks (assuming you take the standard set before it was banned: Icicle Crash, Flare Blitz, Earthquake, U-Turn), but those two have no reliable recovery and aren't very good in the current meta to begin with. I don't see it being balanced or unbanned at all.

:ss/zygarde:
Should we consider unbanning Zygarde?
I gave Zygarde a 2 out of 5, because it isn't has bad as Galarian Darmanitan, but still no. It has great typing, great bulk, a riskless and spamable Stab, two great set up options in Dragon Dance and Coil, Substitute and Glare. Those attributes make Zygarde a very unhealthy and annoying presence. Necessitating checks/counters like Clefable and Buzzwole is restricting. Maybe sometimes in the future won't be that obressive, but I can't see it being unbanned in the near future or at all.

So, here are my thoughts on the questions, I think once Cinderace and Magearna leave the tier, the meta game will be in a much more healthier spot. From their on we'll have to see how the meta develops and look some threats that might become obressive or restricting.

Anyways, have a nice day and stay safe.
Cya!
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Since there are some shared thoughts on the survey, I might as well share mine since there's no harm to it. I'm not gonna put the exact rating since I did the survey yesterday and I already forgot what I gave them


:ss/Cinderace:

I don't feel like this mon is broken. I've always just considered this as a giant irritation but not broken. Yes, it has a wide movepool and a really great speed tier but it's also somewhat limited. I've never had a problem with this mon ever since the tier sort of calmed down. That's probably because I keep spamming Ferrothorn and Zapdos with max hp max def. It's oddly satisfying seeing a Cinderace looking to absorb a leech seed and u turn out due to pyro ball threat only to get paralyzed while Zapdos has static, that's all that needs to be said. Even tho I think this mon is kinda ridiculous, I don't really feel like it's banworthy. There is also another reason for that and it has something to do when there was a question along the lines of 'do you have other concerns' or whatever so I'll type in that part later and it has some sort of relationship on why I don't think it's banworthy

:sm/Magearna:

I hate this mon. I legit hate whoever in gamefreak designed this dumb thing. I think this should be quick banned. The fact that it can choose which pokemon it's gonna lose to is already annoying enough and there is always the possibility of you losing a mon to it while trying to scout its set, which could easily get out of control. I'm not gonna rant about this for too long. I'm pretty sure I gave this one a five as every single battle, I have to worry about whether or not I'm gonna lose to this thing

:sm/Toxapex:

Uhm, why is this here? That was what I legitimately thought when I saw it on the survey. There's probably some stuff about this during the isle of armor so I apologize if I miss anything as I only started playing after crown tundra dropped. While I do hate how hellish this thing is to switch into, I don't think it is even remotely broken

:xy/Tornadus-Therian:

I don't think this mon is broken simply because of one thing, rng. If something relies on rng to be a threat, I am never gonna think it is ban worthy. This mon is literally at the mercy of a thirty percent. Yes it can break apart entire teams with nasty plot boosted attacks, has utility that rivals even Landorus Therian and a great speed tier, at the end of the day, it's still rng dependent and anything that relies on rng is never gonna be consistent because rng. Under rain, this thing is broken but I'm not particularly sure if rain is that good atm. If it does go for a utility set, then it's even more not broken. Its utility set existed last gen and it wasn't even broken

Teleport

I don't think it is ban worthy. It is very annoying to deal with due to its users having incredible longevity but the fact that it has negative priority also makes it somewhat exploitable. Taunt is also a thing and while not all mons carry taunt, it's still an option. Like with Cinderace, the main reason why I don't think it is ban worthy is related to the 'other concerns' part so I'll mention it later

:ss/Zamazenta-Crowned:

I have no idea what to think on this. I didn't even know this pokemon existed until I remembered the boxart on sword and shield. I honestly don't know what to think on this as I'm not familiar with this mon at all

:ss/Darmanitan-Galar:

Like with Zamazenta, I'm not gonna comment too much on this. I only started playing when crown tundra dropped so I wasn't around when this was allowed. I did have some conversations that talked about this thing and if it is true that its ability is a built in choice band, I don't think it should be allowed since you'd have to sacrifice a previous moveslot for protect

:ss/Zygarde:

I'm not exactly sure what to think on this one. When it was still around, I never had a problem dealing with it and yes it was incredibly annoying, it was more like just another Cinderace to me. The main reason why I think this is the same as Tornadus Therian, rng. This mon can easily derail because it usually relied on parahax and has a no risk button in thousand arrows but its attack is not that great and is outsped by a lot of mons. I'm kinda neutral at this one as while I don't want it back in the tier, I wouldn't mind it being in it as well

Now, for the last part, the other concerns

:Heavy-Duty Boots:Heavy-Duty Boots:Heavy-Duty Boots:

Now, I mentioned that this part is why I believe Cinderace and teleport aren't banworthy, the boots. If Cinderace didn't have boots, stealth rock just straight up ruins it. I think boots is what really pushes Cinderace over the edge. It literally has an infinite number of switches due to how this thing negates hazards. While teleport users like Slowbro do not carry boots all the time, that is mostly because of Cinderace. Regardless, I think boots really pushed the mons kept in check by hazards to go berserk. Yes, knock off is a thing but you have to work hard to knock off the boots, not to mention that your opponent can simply switch out to something that doesn't mind losing its item

Bottom line is, I think boots should be looked at first before Cinderace. It just makes something like Volcarona an even bigger threat because it's not crippled upon switch in while many of its answers are. If boots gets banned, then that means that to use someone like Cinderace, you actually have to put in effort to get it in instead of just near mindlessly getting it on the field. Banning boots would hurt the birds but really, Zapdos and Tornadus Therian have been dealing with rocks for over a decade now and have actually thrived in its presence while Moltres, well, doesn't exactly have that good of a place in ou right now

This is the part on why I don't think Cinderace is ban worthy. The fact that Cinderace, and many other mons can just switch in near unpunished just straight up elevates their danger level. I even think that boots removes the part where you have to carefully consider options because you will be punished just by switching

Those are my thoughts anyway. I really think that Magearna and boots are broken but nothing else


PS

Second biggest reason why I wanna get rid of boots, to kick Dragonite out of ou. I hate how Dragonite is in a tier higher than Salamence
 
Yeah not gonna lie
None of the unbans in the playerbase survey are gonna happen.
For those still carrying hope for GDarm, Zygarde, and Zamazenta-C to drop down, let me explain a few issues with that. (However, I personally am indifferent to a Zama-C test, it’s just not gonna happen.)



The “No-Unbans” Post
Before I get into this, let me go over some important Smogon tiering policy-
1. Complex bans aren’t happening. Okay, we aren’t gonna unban combinations, individual aspects, and parts of Pokémon in order to make the Pokémon in question not broken. This means no Zen GDarm unbans. GDarm itself is completely broken- I’ll go over it again in a sec- so we aren’t gonna just ban Gorilla Tactics. The only example I can think of where there was a complex ban in recent memory was the Swift Swim+Drizzle ban in BW OU which I personally disagree with, but it isn’t current, nor something that will happen in the near future.

2. If an unban can potentially be not broken, then this unban ought to happen. We saw this most recently at the start of the Crown Tundra metagame- Genesect, Naganadel, Kyurem-B, Landorus-I, Magearna, Melmetal, Cinderace, Zygarde, Blaziken, and Pheromosa were unbanned. Additionally, the already problematic Urshifu-SS and the potentially problematic Spectrier were not banned. Of all of these, guess what? Only four remain: Magearna, Cinderace, Melmetal, and Blaziken. The first two of these are arguably broken, likely due for a suspect, and last time each was suspected in SS OU, they were banned. Blaziken should potentially be much better after the theoretical ban of Ace, and should Blaziken prove problematic following this, then Blaziken will be banned too. Melmetal will be fine based on its current standing in the metagame, and even if it did end up broken it’ll just be banned too. With all of these unbans, we see every single unban bar Blaziken and Melmetal either gone or on the chopping block, in addition to the suspects and bans of Spectrier and Urshifu-SS. So why did all of these get unbanned in the first place? The answer is simple: they each had the potential to be balanced in the tier. Sure, it was heavily unlikely for most of them, but it was worth giving it a try due to the fact that every once in a while, we have a Melmetal or a Blaziken that isn’t actually broken, and adds to the metagame. At the start of Gen 8, there was an Aegislash unban due to its nerfs and general power creep and guess what- Aegislash is actually a really cool addition to the metagame!



:ss/zygarde: :ss/darmanitan-galar: :ss/zamazenta-crowned:

However, let me go over why I don’t think that any of these unbans are happening individually and why it makes sense with the points I’ve made earlier.



:zygarde:

Recently unbanned and quickbanned, Zygarde was very much broken when it was around last time, as well as in National Dex, and no metagame changes that make the metagame more hostile to Zygarde have really occurred. I guess Pult can revenge it a little easier behind Sub since it no longer is competing with Spectrier, and that’s the only change. This is not enough of a change to possibly merit an unban. After a single Dragon Dance, Pult can no longer revenge Zygarde, and with slight bulk investment, Zygarde can avoid a KO from Draco on the Boots Pivot set. The point is that in no way is Zygarde gonna be unbanned.



:darmanitan-galar:

When I saw this one on the survey, I started laughing. Garm is broken, Garm is broken, Garm is broken. Anyone who has been watching either OU or NatDex this gen knows how absurd Garm is, and most people can see that it’s broken just on principle. It’s not gonna get unbanned, so it shouldn’t be tested. Additionally- Zen Garm is not gonna be unbanned. That would constitute a complex ban- banning Gorilla Tactics makes no sense because Huge Power is an ability that outright outclasses GTactics and is not broken on Azumarill nor Diggersby- and one cannot simply ban the combination of GTactics and Garm- that’s a complex ban. Other bans with similar principles but different circumstances that I just wanted to go over quickly are banning Libero but not Ace (sorry, but Libero isn’t broken in OU on Raboot and therefore Libero cannot be banned), and banning Arena Trap as a foil to the “ban Libero” argument- Arena Trap is proven to be broken across every generation in which it exists save for Gen 3 (arguably still broken), and one might say that banning it affects Diglett and Trapinch down in lower tiers, but they have such impracticality terrible stats and movepools that they aren’t worth using, and additionally, different tiering policy in relation to Little Cup means that they still have access to Arena Trap in that metagame.



:zamazenta-crowned:

Now this one is a bit different- Zamazenta-C is terrible in Ubers, but has never been tested in OU. There have been several lengthy discussions in regards to Zamazenta-C, and honestly, I think that it would be quite broken. It possesses a ton of natural bulk, which means that it is nearly impossible to OHKO with a faster Pokémon that is in the B tier or above in OU. I calced it. Barring a Scarf Victini V-Create or Blue Flare, pretty much no offensive counterplay threatens Zama-C with a KO. As a result, defensive counterplay is the better solution, and even then, Howl and Zama’s coverage let it beat nearly every OU threat head on. That being said, it technically should be considered for a retest as all discussion thus far has been theoretical. I don’t think it would prove healthy, but it’s the only one of the three unbans in the survey that could possibly happen.



Hopefully this helped clear up some stuff for people, I’m writing literally this entire post from my phone so I apologize if this sounds inarticulate. As for my thoughts in regards to the rest of the survey, I think that both Ace and Mag are suspect worthy, I think that the Pex is not suspect worthy, and I believe that Tornadus-T and Tapu Lele will be suspect worthy down the line. The metagame is in a pretty good place right now, we just need to get rid of the last of the broken stuff and we’ll be good to go!
 
Yeah not gonna lie
None of the unbans in the playerbase survey are gonna happen.
For those still carrying hope for GDarm, Zygarde, and Zamazenta-C to drop down, let me explain a few issues with that. (However, I personally am indifferent to a Zama-C test, it’s just not gonna happen.)



The “No-Unbans” Post
Before I get into this, let me go over some important Smogon tiering policy-
1. Complex bans aren’t happening. Okay, we aren’t gonna unban combinations, individual aspects, and parts of Pokémon in order to make the Pokémon in question not broken. This means no Zen GDarm unbans. GDarm itself is completely broken- I’ll go over it again in a sec- so we aren’t gonna just ban Gorilla Tactics. The only example I can think of where there was a complex ban in recent memory was the Swift Swim+Drizzle ban in BW OU which I personally disagree with, but it isn’t current, nor something that will happen in the near future.

2. If an unban can potentially be not broken, then this unban ought to happen. We saw this most recently at the start of the Crown Tundra metagame- Genesect, Naganadel, Kyurem-B, Landorus-I, Magearna, Melmetal, Cinderace, Zygarde, Blaziken, and Pheromosa were unbanned. Additionally, the already problematic Urshifu-SS and the potentially problematic Spectrier were not banned. Of all of these, guess what? Only four remain: Magearna, Cinderace, Melmetal, and Blaziken. The first two of these are arguably broken, likely due for a suspect, and last time each was suspected in SS OU, they were banned. Blaziken should potentially be much better after the theoretical ban of Ace, and should Blaziken prove problematic following this, then Blaziken will be banned too. Melmetal will be fine based on its current standing in the metagame, and even if it did end up broken it’ll just be banned too. With all of these unbans, we see every single unban bar Blaziken and Melmetal either gone or on the chopping block, in addition to the suspects and bans of Spectrier and Urshifu-SS. So why did all of these get unbanned in the first place? The answer is simple: they each had the potential to be balanced in the tier. Sure, it was heavily unlikely for most of them, but it was worth giving it a try due to the fact that every once in a while, we have a Melmetal or a Blaziken that isn’t actually broken, and adds to the metagame. At the start of Gen 8, there was an Aegislash unban due to its nerfs and general power creep and guess what- Aegislash is actually a really cool addition to the metagame!



:ss/zygarde: :ss/darmanitan-galar: :ss/zamazenta-crowned:

However, let me go over why I don’t think that any of these unbans are happening individually and why it makes sense with the points I’ve made earlier.



:zygarde:

Recently unbanned and quickbanned, Zygarde was very much broken when it was around last time, as well as in National Dex, and no metagame changes that make the metagame more hostile to Zygarde have really occurred. I guess Pult can revenge it a little easier behind Sub since it no longer is competing with Spectrier, and that’s the only change. This is not enough of a change to possibly merit an unban. After a single Dragon Dance, Pult can no longer revenge Zygarde, and with slight bulk investment, Zygarde can avoid a KO from Draco on the Boots Pivot set. The point is that in no way is Zygarde gonna be unbanned.



:darmanitan-galar:

When I saw this one on the survey, I started laughing. Garm is broken, Garm is broken, Garm is broken. Anyone who has been watching either OU or NatDex this gen knows how absurd Garm is, and most people can see that it’s broken just on principle. It’s not gonna get unbanned, so it shouldn’t be tested. Additionally- Zen Garm is not gonna be unbanned. That would constitute a complex ban- banning Gorilla Tactics makes no sense because Huge Power is an ability that outright outclasses GTactics and is not broken on Azumarill nor Diggersby- and one cannot simply ban the combination of GTactics and Garm- that’s a complex ban. Other bans with similar principles but different circumstances that I just wanted to go over quickly are banning Libero but not Ace (sorry, but Libero isn’t broken in OU on Raboot and therefore Libero cannot be banned), and banning Arena Trap as a foil to the “ban Libero” argument- Arena Trap is proven to be broken across every generation in which it exists save for Gen 3 (arguably still broken), and one might say that banning it affects Diglett and Trapinch down in lower tiers, but they have such impracticality terrible stats and movepools that they aren’t worth using, and additionally, different tiering policy in relation to Little Cup means that they still have access to Arena Trap in that metagame.



:zamazenta-crowned:

Now this one is a bit different- Zamazenta-C is terrible in Ubers, but has never been tested in OU. There have been several lengthy discussions in regards to Zamazenta-C, and honestly, I think that it would be quite broken. It possesses a ton of natural bulk, which means that it is nearly impossible to OHKO with a faster Pokémon that is in the B tier or above in OU. I calced it. Barring a Scarf Victini V-Create or Blue Flare, pretty much no offensive counterplay threatens Zama-C with a KO. As a result, defensive counterplay is the better solution, and even then, Howl and Zama’s coverage let it beat nearly every OU threat head on. That being said, it technically should be considered for a retest as all discussion thus far has been theoretical. I don’t think it would prove healthy, but it’s the only one of the three unbans in the survey that could possibly happen.



Hopefully this helped clear up some stuff for people, I’m writing literally this entire post from my phone so I apologize if this sounds inarticulate. As for my thoughts in regards to the rest of the survey, I think that both Ace and Mag are suspect worthy, I think that the Pex is not suspect worthy, and I believe that Tornadus-T and Tapu Lele will be suspect worthy down the line. The metagame is in a pretty good place right now, we just need to get rid of the last of the broken stuff and we’ll be good to go!
I agree with your points made with Zygarde and Garm, but I don't agree with your reasoning for Zamazenta-C. Both Zygarde and Garm have been tried in OU and found broken, and therefore we have concrete knowledge on their best sets and their effect on the meta. We know exactly how Garm is nuclear and has no safe switch-ins, and we know where Sub-Glare Zygarde falls on the spectrum between Hax Gimmick and Viable Hax abuser. However, I think it is safe to say that very few people actually understand how Zamazenta-C works, seeing as how it has been the limbo between OU and Ubers since essentially the beginning of its existence. Currently, we still have broken bunnies running around OU, but once the tier has settled down from all the DLC2 unbans and nothing is immediately on the chopping block yet we should consider Zama-C seriously, since it would be a shame if we later find out it is in fact balanced and we lost a big portion of the metagame due to inaction.
 
I would also like to give a quick summary of my thoughts on the survey questions.

:ss/(Cinderace):
I agree that I don’t think Cinderace is broken anymore. It’s undoubtedly a top tier mon, but it isn’t over-centralising like Urshifu and Spectrier were, where you auto lost unless you ran a limited set of mons. Cinderace has a wide variety of checks, such as Hippowdon, Toxapex and Slowbro, and none of them are forced to run suboptimal sets specifically to beat Cinderace. Sure, U-turn is annoying as hell, and Cinderace can work around its counters with stuff like Electro Ball, but so can any good wallbreaker, like how Rillaboom can break Ferro with Superpower.

:ss/(Magearna):

Get this thing out of OU. Unlike Cinderace, which always carries Pyro Ball and U-turn, Mag can run about seventeen different viable sets with totally different moves. Specs hits way too hard, Shift Gear CM is impossible to stop without Haze, and there’s even stuff like Scarf Trick and AV going around now. The coverage it gets is absolutely insane, with Aura Sphere for Heatran, Tbolt for Pex, and Ice Beam for Lando. It even gets Energy Ball, which I found out after it OHKOed my Gastrodon. Magearna has no reliable counters and needs to be banned.

:ss/(Toxapex):

Toxapex is not remotely broken, Pex shouldn‘t be banned. Don’t know why this was on the survey.

:ss/(Tornadus Therian):

Don’t ban Tornadus either? Has anyone legitimately found this thing to be an issue? It doesn‘t get Roost, it relies on a 70% accurate move, it doesn‘t have the greatest coverage. I guess it’s kind of scary at +2 under rain, but Koko or Zeraora can just revenge it. Outside of Rain, Haze Pex sits on this thing all day.

:ss/(Zamazenta Crowned):

Why are we even considering a box art legend in OU? This thing has crazy bulk, speed and attack power, and the only reasons to allow it into OU are lack of recovery, no boosting move outside of Howl, and mediocre coverage. There’s no case for letting Zamazenta into OU, the meta will become filled with Wish passers to support it and Scarf Victini to try and revenge kill it. It simply has too high a BST, that’s all there is to it.

:ss/(Darmanitan Galar):

Ahh yes, the weird snowman with a built-in Choice Band. Just no. It has absurd breaking power when it runs Scarf and Banded variants are just ridiculous.

:ss/(Zygarde):

Zygarde would be more balanced in OU than the other two, but it still shouldn’t be unbanned. Thousand Arrows lets it run three utility moves, and Sub Coil is too difficult to beat. Triple Axel and Icicle Spear could maybe keep it in check, but Glare means that Zygarde can cripple anything that tries to stop it and sweep even without support. If it couldn‘t run Thousand Arrows it might be balanced, but then we get into the realm of ‘Kygore can be used in OU if it holds Black Sludge and doesn’t have any water moves’.

Once Magearna is banned the metagame should be fairly balanced. I don’t think Cinderace should go, but that’s up for debate. Others have already made arguments similar to mine, so I won’t say anything more, but in summary: Ban Mag, Don’t Ban Ace, Don’t Ban Pex, Don’t Ban Torn, and don’t unban ZZ-C, Garm, or Garde.
 
I've been lurking around this thread for quite a bit so I think I should share my opinions on the mons on the survey as well.

:ss/cinderace:

I don't think its broken for most of the reasons other people said. Sure, its very good at what it does. Sure, Libero gives it 3 120+ BP STAB moves to work with. Sure, it gets STAB U-Turn and priority. But although its very good (no denying that), it is not broken in my eyes because there's enough counterplay to it and its checks are relatively easy to fit on a team. It isn't like Magearna which pressures you right from the teambuilder, although this might just me me spamming Zapdos/Moltres on my teams.

:ss/magearna:

Now this is a completely different story. Magearna is broken. The SGCM Kisspower set forces you to have one of a select few pokemon that can deal with it. Sounds familiar? This is part of why Spectrier was banned and was exactly why I wanted Spectrier banned. I as a player likes freedom on the builder and Magearna greatly restricts that. Not to mention that the checks of SGCM can be completely obliterated by other sets or even just a change in coverage moves. Its too difficult to deal with, it lacks true counters (that's actually splashable in the metagame), and the SGCM set can 6-0 you from team preview if you don't have a satisfactory answer. Get it out.

:ss/toxapex:

Ok, I'm gonna be honest, selfishly I would love to see Toxapex be banned. Its so damn bulky and unkillable and annoying. However, the truth is that it is not broken, like at all. Sure, its bulky. Sure, its annoying as hell. Sure, some people would want to smash their computer screens when they see Toxapex on team preview, but it is not the least "broken". I think I shouldn't have to explain why.

:ss/tornadus-therian:

Again, its just really, really good at what it does, not broken. Sure its versatile as hell and unkillable in the right hands and has nearly unparralelled utility as well as a nasty NP breaker set, but they all can be handled, and unlike Magearna the checks overlap and is easier to fit.

:ss/darmanitan-galar:

HAHAHAHAHAHA no

:ss/zamazenta-crowned:

I was fine with it being freed until I started playing BH. Its bulk is just insane. Think Pokemon like Assult Vest Magearna in gen 7, with no recovery, but absolutely insane bulk. Even the strongest breakers can't OHKO it unless they have a supereffective STAB move. And its also fast, even faster than Tornadus-T, as well as great power. This might be garbage in ubers but is the perfect tank in OU. I do understand that people want to give it a chance in OU, so maaaaaaaaaaaybe it will be fine after we finish cleaning up the remaining brokens. Probably not tho.

:ss/zygarde:

Insanely versatile, can select which sets it can beat with the right set, has arguably the best offensive move (Tarrows), best physical setup moves outside of Shift Gear (DD and Coil), best status-inducing move outside of spore (Glare), best priority move (Espeed), and have all the right stats to do things with them. It can be incredibly annoying with Sub Glare shenanigans or just 6-0 teams with setup sets. No thank you.

TLDR: Ban Mage and don't touch anything else. Zama might be worth a shot tho.
 
Yeah not gonna lie
None of the unbans in the playerbase survey are gonna happen.
For those still carrying hope for GDarm, Zygarde, and Zamazenta-C to drop down, let me explain a few issues with that. (However, I personally am indifferent to a Zama-C test, it’s just not gonna happen.)



The “No-Unbans” Post
Before I get into this, let me go over some important Smogon tiering policy-
1. Complex bans aren’t happening. Okay, we aren’t gonna unban combinations, individual aspects, and parts of Pokémon in order to make the Pokémon in question not broken. This means no Zen GDarm unbans. GDarm itself is completely broken- I’ll go over it again in a sec- so we aren’t gonna just ban Gorilla Tactics. The only example I can think of where there was a complex ban in recent memory was the Swift Swim+Drizzle ban in BW OU which I personally disagree with, but it isn’t current, nor something that will happen in the near future.

2. If an unban can potentially be not broken, then this unban ought to happen. We saw this most recently at the start of the Crown Tundra metagame- Genesect, Naganadel, Kyurem-B, Landorus-I, Magearna, Melmetal, Cinderace, Zygarde, Blaziken, and Pheromosa were unbanned. Additionally, the already problematic Urshifu-SS and the potentially problematic Spectrier were not banned. Of all of these, guess what? Only four remain: Magearna, Cinderace, Melmetal, and Blaziken. The first two of these are arguably broken, likely due for a suspect, and last time each was suspected in SS OU, they were banned. Blaziken should potentially be much better after the theoretical ban of Ace, and should Blaziken prove problematic following this, then Blaziken will be banned too. Melmetal will be fine based on its current standing in the metagame, and even if it did end up broken it’ll just be banned too. With all of these unbans, we see every single unban bar Blaziken and Melmetal either gone or on the chopping block, in addition to the suspects and bans of Spectrier and Urshifu-SS. So why did all of these get unbanned in the first place? The answer is simple: they each had the potential to be balanced in the tier. Sure, it was heavily unlikely for most of them, but it was worth giving it a try due to the fact that every once in a while, we have a Melmetal or a Blaziken that isn’t actually broken, and adds to the metagame. At the start of Gen 8, there was an Aegislash unban due to its nerfs and general power creep and guess what- Aegislash is actually a really cool addition to the metagame!



:ss/zygarde: :ss/darmanitan-galar: :ss/zamazenta-crowned:

However, let me go over why I don’t think that any of these unbans are happening individually and why it makes sense with the points I’ve made earlier.



:zygarde:

Recently unbanned and quickbanned, Zygarde was very much broken when it was around last time, as well as in National Dex, and no metagame changes that make the metagame more hostile to Zygarde have really occurred. I guess Pult can revenge it a little easier behind Sub since it no longer is competing with Spectrier, and that’s the only change. This is not enough of a change to possibly merit an unban. After a single Dragon Dance, Pult can no longer revenge Zygarde, and with slight bulk investment, Zygarde can avoid a KO from Draco on the Boots Pivot set. The point is that in no way is Zygarde gonna be unbanned.



:darmanitan-galar:

When I saw this one on the survey, I started laughing. Garm is broken, Garm is broken, Garm is broken. Anyone who has been watching either OU or NatDex this gen knows how absurd Garm is, and most people can see that it’s broken just on principle. It’s not gonna get unbanned, so it shouldn’t be tested. Additionally- Zen Garm is not gonna be unbanned. That would constitute a complex ban- banning Gorilla Tactics makes no sense because Huge Power is an ability that outright outclasses GTactics and is not broken on Azumarill nor Diggersby- and one cannot simply ban the combination of GTactics and Garm- that’s a complex ban. Other bans with similar principles but different circumstances that I just wanted to go over quickly are banning Libero but not Ace (sorry, but Libero isn’t broken in OU on Raboot and therefore Libero cannot be banned), and banning Arena Trap as a foil to the “ban Libero” argument- Arena Trap is proven to be broken across every generation in which it exists save for Gen 3 (arguably still broken), and one might say that banning it affects Diglett and Trapinch down in lower tiers, but they have such impracticality terrible stats and movepools that they aren’t worth using, and additionally, different tiering policy in relation to Little Cup means that they still have access to Arena Trap in that metagame.



:zamazenta-crowned:

Now this one is a bit different- Zamazenta-C is terrible in Ubers, but has never been tested in OU. There have been several lengthy discussions in regards to Zamazenta-C, and honestly, I think that it would be quite broken. It possesses a ton of natural bulk, which means that it is nearly impossible to OHKO with a faster Pokémon that is in the B tier or above in OU. I calced it. Barring a Scarf Victini V-Create or Blue Flare, pretty much no offensive counterplay threatens Zama-C with a KO. As a result, defensive counterplay is the better solution, and even then, Howl and Zama’s coverage let it beat nearly every OU threat head on. That being said, it technically should be considered for a retest as all discussion thus far has been theoretical. I don’t think it would prove healthy, but it’s the only one of the three unbans in the survey that could possibly happen.



Hopefully this helped clear up some stuff for people, I’m writing literally this entire post from my phone so I apologize if this sounds inarticulate. As for my thoughts in regards to the rest of the survey, I think that both Ace and Mag are suspect worthy, I think that the Pex is not suspect worthy, and I believe that Tornadus-T and Tapu Lele will be suspect worthy down the line. The metagame is in a pretty good place right now, we just need to get rid of the last of the broken stuff and we’ll be good to go!
Just a small note, but Arena Trap was banned because it was broken on all of the pokemon that had access to it. Even Trapinch and Diglett were used in the past when Dugtrio was banned (gen V for example) and while sure they were worse they still ultimately achieved the same thing. The same goes for something like Moody. As for G-Darm maybe GT could be banned instead of it (and I personally wouldn't have any problems with it) but as things stand right now G-Darm is simply too much for the tier.
 
:cinderace:

The bunny is incredibly unhealthy at the moment, but not absolutely broken. The real factor that everyone agrees on being a problem is its synergy with The Boots. Getting omni-STAB on U-Turn is already pretty silly, especially with its high attack, but being able to ignore the problem with switch spamming is definitely causing problems. 4/5.

:magearna:

Ban this thing oh my god it's so toxic. It wasn't fun to deal with last generation with its 50 different sets. It wasn't fun to deal with in Isle of Armor OU with its Specs nonsense. It's certainly not any more fun to deal with today with the exact same problems as before. Steel/Fairy is damn near perfect typing, Soul-Heart is just Grim Neigh, Fleur Cannon kills literally everything. The only issue Mag has today that it didn't have in Isle of Armor is Heatran. It still has coverage and secondary sets for days, and Heatran can get exploited by Mag's teammates. Ban it soon so I can go back to using Hatterene please. 5/5 (would be 6/5).

:toxapex:

I hate this thing. It has always been on the radar since its release, as it simply shuts down so many Pokemon. If your team does not have a Toxapex answer then it probably is going to struggle. Stuff that would be low-key broken like Urshifu-R and Volcarona can't break it without either extra boosts or dropping important moves for coverage. Every time discussion about this Pokemon starts it inevitably turns into "yeah it's causing problems but think of all the problems that will occur without it", which yeah it makes sense, but I hate this necessary evil thing. It's still evil. 4/5.

:tornadus-therian:

It's not a problem. Yet. In NatDex OU, it was banned for simply providing too much free momentum. Having access to every utility option, Regenerator +Boots, and Nasty Plot basically ensured that it would accomplish something while it was on the field. Right now the meta is at a point where it isn't the most pressing matter, but I could easily see it becoming too much after a few shifts. 3/5.

:zamazenta-crowned:

We haven't had any real discussion on this guy since the last survey, but honestly I feel like a suspect of it wouldn't be too disasterous. My big question with it is "what is it going to accomplish when it's on the field?' Is it truly going to be so good at what it does that it shouldn't be allowed in OU? As a wall it does have a genuinely good quality in a 4x Stealth Rock resist, which might be interesting to see how that messes with the defensive metagame. I feel like a test for it would be interesting. 3/5.

:darmanitan-galar:

keep banned for all of eternity lmao it doesn't matter if it's scarf+band or double band or boots+band it's hilariously overpowered and nothing can change my mind on that doing 40% with resisted U-Turn is straight broken

:zygarde:

lol no
 
1613591218037.png
I wanted to show the set of lando i am using right know, the choiceband set. It is more useful that it sounds, many will think that this is bs and I just post whatever I want but no. 1ko pex is no joke. slowbro is 2ko, zapdos is meal and spe edf swuamper too. Let me show some calcs.

Earthquake 49.7 - 58.8%
U-turn 46.7 - 55.3%
Stone Edge 33.2 - 39.3%
Knock Off 64.4 - 76.1% :slowbro:


Earthquake 102.6 - 121%
U-turn 11.8 - 14.1%
Stone Edge 34.2 - 40.4%
Knock Off 33.2 - 39.1% :toxapex:


Earthquake 23.1 - 27.2%
U-turn 86.8 - 102.6%
Stone Edge 61.8 - 73%
Knock Off 60.1 - 70.9% :rillaboom:


Earthquake 84.8 - 100%
U-turn 39.4 - 46.7%
Stone Edge 28.2 - 33.3%
Knock Off 54.9 - 64.7% :garchomp:


Earthquake 0 - 0%
U-turn 16.1 - 19%
Stone Edge 91.3 - 108%
Knock Off 44.3 - 52.4% :zapdos:






https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1284475703
 
Pokedom10 said:
:toxapex:

I hate this thing. It has always been on the radar since its release, as it simply shuts down so many Pokemon. If your team does not have a Toxapex answer then it probably is going to struggle. Stuff that would be low-key broken like Urshifu-R and Volcarona can't break it without either extra boosts or dropping important moves for coverage. Every time discussion about this Pokemon starts it inevitably turns into "yeah it's causing problems but think of all the problems that will occur without it", which yeah it makes sense, but I hate this necessary evil thing. It's still evil. 4/5.
I don’t understand your argument here. Sure, Pex checks a lot of stuff, but it’s a wall. It’s supposed to. There are plenty of mons that can beat Pex, think Koko, Zapdos, Rillaboom, Chomp, Lando-T, Lele, Zeraora, Kyurem, Melmetal etc. Basically any breaker with a strong Electric, Psychic or Ground move. If your team doesn’t have that, it’s a bad team, and would be even if Pex didn’t exist. And actually if you look at the viability ranking thread, there’s discussion about Pex dropping, since a lot of top tier threats can beat it. Pex also suffers from 4MSS slightly atm, since it has to run Recover, is setup bait if it doesn’t run Haze, and then has to pick two from Knock Off, Scald and Toxic/T-Spikes. Without Knock Off, Pex can‘t remove HDB, without Scald it can’t fish for burns and has no damage output, and without Toxic or T-Spikes it gets beaten by walls. Perhaps you could clarify exactly why you think Pex is broken, because I don’t think it counters nearly as much stuff as you seem to think it does.
 
Cinder:

I gave a 4. It's strong, a bit too strong but it's not an insta-ban. I don't think anything in the meta is.

Mage:

I gave it a 4. I play sand with Excadrill which means I almost always beat any set up set and Specs set unless it's FB then I still revenge kill but have to play carefully. It's very strong but I have little problems with it.

Zygarde:

I use Buzz so it was never a problem for me, also Zolt almost always beat Zygarde eith D-meteor unless it missed, however I cansee why it's broken but I'm impartial.

Darm-G:

lmao nope

Torn-T:

It's an amazing pivot and a decent late game sweeper/cleaner but not close to broken.

Zama:

I say unban it, I'd like to test it and see how it is as it could be great or broken or fine. I'm just excited to try it.

Also it being a box legendary is not a reason to keep it banned, KyuB was unbanned or 3 gens and it was a box legendary.

Anything Else:

Fuck Rilla Boom. Fuck it and it's stupid little monkey as grassy gliding face.

Again I play sand and Rilla Boom basically makes you play 4-6 against it since Exca and Hippo get destroyed by it. Hell even Zolt can't switch in on Knock off or stomping Tantrum or Super Power or even banded Grassy Glide or U-Turn because it'll be worn down fast and destroyed. It requires the use of Buzzwole, Zapdos or Moltres on Sand and praying and even then ya risk being crippled by knock off anyways. It also makes Rain a complete and utter bitch to play.

It completely takes advantage of the Boots metagame reliance on having a ground type to stop volt-turn spam by contributing to Volt turn spam, beating any Ground type in the tier and crippling stuff with knock off.

It takes heavy advantage of Future sight allowing it to beat one of its few counters in Buzz and is only beaten by Mandibuzz in it's standard Band set and the SD set has an entirely different of counters.

It also enables and turns Hawlucha into something crazy (Grasy Terrain is without a bet Halwucha's best terrain.)

Seriously underrated and if Mag/Cinder are banned I heavily implore everyone to look into this stupid gorilla.
 

AnimaticLunatic

I COULD BE BANNED!
With all due respsect to everyone here, I will have to ask, what are you all thinking to put Tornadus-Therian as lesser threat then Cindarace?



:ss/tornadus-therian:

Tornadus-Therian @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Timid Nature
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- U-turn

Now, I am talking only about offensive sets here, as defensive ones are fine, lesser Toxapex with a defog If someone asked me to describe them.
Offensive sets, as one I posted above (best non weather relient one in my opinion) are where this monster truly shines.

My problem, as with Cindarace, is not its breaking power, as we have many strong breakers in the tire such as Rillaboom, Garchomp, Land-T... My problem is comes is when we factor in its speed and longivity thanks to regenerator. It is fifth fastest regular OU pokemon, only behind Tapu Koko, Barraskewda (only played on rain teams), Dragapult and Regieleki (who is strictly seen as screen setter these days). So offensively checking it is almost impossible. You will almost always need to take the hit first, but here is where we come to another problem.It is way to hard to kill for how offensively inclined it is.

First, its bulk 79/80/90 is solid so it can take a hit if it needs to such as Jolly Cindarace pyro ball. But unlike similar bulky pokemon such as mentioned bunny, who is famous for how long it can stay into the game thanks to HDB, it is even harder to chip down. Thanks to Regenerator combined with its own foot wear. So good luck taking it into the health range where you can finish it off.
It is not even that hard to get into the position where it can fire off its dangerous attacks since it can come on to many dangerous attackers (with caution) such as Kartana, Rillaboom, Earhtquake Choice Locked Lan-T and many more. And that is not even counting pivoting moves.

If your team does not either have Slowking galar, thunder wave Blissey/Slowing or Zapdos (only reliable counter/check that is classified as OU mind you) you have no real long term solution for it. All of other "checks" either get worn down incredibly quickly (Magerna) or bow down to focus blast hit. U turn feels like best filler move since well, it is usually risk free since you are probably bringing in something that can take advantage of incoming enemy pokemon. And on top of it, now it has nasty plot so it has easier time breaking through its checks and teams. And even then, it can run Weather Ball on Sand teams if is that worried about Zapdos as plus 2 always OHKO 252 health/ 0 SPD eved one.

The only real downside to it is that you are praying that your 70% moves actually hit but even if you miss, it is not really a big deal since not many defensive/offensive pokemon can actually OHKO or cripple you (with status or knock off) to hard. Even toxic does not really harm it if you are getting lucky with your hits. And without your boots, you can still get back to full thanks to regenerator, it just means you will need to get rid of rocks if you want it to take a hit from things such as Rillaboom.

I feel that once people start using it more and more, they are going to realise how overbearing it actually is.
So
 
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My thoughts on the survey:<br />
<br />
Cinderace: 4, this mon is pretty powerful atm. I would be down to suspect it, and if I could vote I would give it a hard ban. Broken Fire Bunny is broken, but personally, I think that

Magearna: 5, absolutely no real counterplay. No actual legit switch-ins exists, and it's versatility is insane. The amount of sets that can be run on the Broken Steel Bunny is absurd, and it's presence in the meta game is unhealthy. Ban this first please.

Zama-C: I still put a 4, I think people are massively overestimating it's power. It Is a legit concern that it has a deadly combo of speed and bulk, but this really doesn't matter when it cannot hit for shit. Plenty of physically defensive walls have their way with Zama-C, and finding revenge-killers aren't as hard as one might think. I would personally at least want to see it in suspected in the tier. I do agree however that the bunnies should be dealt with first before bringing in Ubers mons in general.

G-Darm: 1. This thing is too powerful. Near neutral coverage, amazing ability, and U-Turn. Enough said.

Zygarde: So I accidentally put a 5, but I meant a 2. Still don't think he should be in the tier, but if a suspect happened and he wasn't OP than aight.

Torn-T: 1, I am not so concerned about Torn-T being broken. It is rather inconsistent outside of rain, and while it hits hard there are plenty of revenge killers capable of putting it in it's place. Not to mention certain spdef walls as well.

Toxapex: 1, I don't think it is overpowered. I hate it, but just because I hate it doesn't make it ban worthy.
 
1613593250768.png

A suspect for this thing would be interesting, and personally I want it to happen. However, Zama-C would be pretty much for OU for a number of reasons:
1. 92 / 145 (+1) / 145 bulk, it's just ridiculous;
2. Steel typing grants Toxic and sandstorm immunity;
3. Counterplay is purely defensive, no offensive mons can deal good amount to damage and 128 base speed makes things even harder, who can 2HKO this thing?
Allow me to get into more detail about this point. Pex, Tang, Corv, Skarm, Moltres, Zapdos, Hippo, Tank Chomp... maybe I'm missing other mons but for now let's stick with these. They can cripple or wall Zama-C, but not perfectly. Pex can potentially Scald burn and Moltres haves Flame Body, but if you don't burn Zama, it can answer back with Wild Charge, this move also affects Corv and Skarm. Tang can wall it and cripple with Rocky Helmet and Leech Seed, but it's also setup fodder, as Zama-C learns Howl. Hippo and Tank Chomp are good switch-ins only if you predict the Wild Charge, but again, can they 2HKO? Zapdos is another switch-in, since it resists both Zama-C's STABs and only receives neutral damage from Wild Charge, and Zapdos also learns Heat Wave and can paralyze with Static, allowing Zapdos to win the speed tier and potentially win on a 1v1 situation if parahax destroys Zama-C, with this in mind Zapdos can potentially be the best check... but not everything is based around 1v1s and Zama-C can receive Rain support to weaken Heat Wave's power. Speaking about support, Zama-C is also very thankful about Grassy Surge and Screens Support, the former can give it passive recovery and thus some longevity while also getting rid of the ground weakness unless you have something like High Horsepower, the latter basically make everything only tickle Zama-C, and relying on critical hits is not an option.
TLDR, Zama-C can Howl on half of the previously mentioned mons, and beat each one of them.
 
View attachment 316704
A suspect for this thing would be interesting, and personally I want it to happen. However, Zama-C would be pretty much for OU for a number of reasons:
1. 92 / 145 (+1) / 145 bulk, it's just ridiculous;
2. Steel typing grants Toxic and sandstorm immunity;
3. Counterplay is purely defensive, no offensive mons can deal good amount to damage and 128 base speed makes things even harder, who can 2HKO this thing?
Allow me to get into more detail about this point. Pex, Tang, Corv, Skarm, Moltres, Zapdos, Hippo, Tank Chomp... maybe I'm missing other mons but for now let's stick with these. They can cripple or wall Zama-C, but not perfectly. Pex can potentially Scald burn and Moltres haves Flame Body, but if you don't burn Zama, it can answer back with Wild Charge, this move also affects Corv and Skarm. Tang can wall it and cripple with Rocky Helmet and Leech Seed, but it's also setup fodder, as Zama-C learns Howl. Hippo and Tank Chomp are good switch-ins only if you predict the Wild Charge, but again, can they 2HKO? Zapdos is another switch-in, since it resists both Zama-C's STABs and only receives neutral damage from Wild Charge, and Zapdos also learns Heat Wave and can paralyze with Static, allowing Zapdos to win the speed tier and potentially win on a 1v1 situation if parahax destroys Zama-C, with this in mind Zapdos can potentially be the best check... but not everything is based around 1v1s and Zama-C can receive Rain support to weaken Heat Wave's power. Speaking about support, Zama-C is also very thankful about Grassy Surge and Screens Support, the former can give it passive recovery and thus some longevity while also getting rid of the ground weakness unless you have something like High Horsepower, the latter basically make everything only tickle Zama-C, and relying on critical hits is not an option.
TLDR, Zama-C can Howl on half of the previously mentioned mons, and beat each one of them.
Certain Offensive Mons such as Hex Wisp / Choice Specs Dragapult, Choice Specs Koko, Choice Scarf Heatran and Victini, and Choice Scarf Lando-T all threaten Zama-C pretty well. Bulky Quiver Dance Volcarona and Aegislash also only take damage from wild charge, which makes them relatively good checks. Actually Lando is a great check if Zama-C is not running an all out attacker set with Ice Fang.
 

Baloor

MORBIDLY A BEAST
is a Tiering Contributor
I want to put my 2 cents in considering i feel like my takes on some of these are a bit different than whats consensus between people that know what theyre talking about. I have no idea what i actually put on the survey cause i did it fast but I do remember my thought process for what i polled so i can give a general number

:magearna: 5 this thing honestly shouldve just been quickbanned, we really didnt need this survey to determine that. like we've really beaten the conversation on this thing to death and everybody agrees its insanely unhealthy and it has no anti ban arguments.

:zygarde: 1 lol fuck no this mon is stupid

:tornadus-therian: 2 torn is perfectly fine at the moment (hence why i gave it 2), but given how i think the meta will shape up after we ban the current threats i can see it potentially becoming insanely annoying. ill keep the reasoning short but regen + boots + insane breaking ability + one of the best pivots in the tier can get really out of hand. Its pretty fine at the moment though, its also kinda hard to slot onto teams cause theres just some better things in the roles in performs. With a couple shifts and bans it might be worth looking into torn, however in the current landscape its perfectly fine.

:toxapex: 2 i really only gave this a 2 cause it can be really obnoxious given the right support but in reality its not broken at all. dies to a lot of things and checks a lot of things. lowkey its keeping the tier from falling apart even though its not even super good rn.

:darmanitan-galar: 5/-1000 for the sheer reason i just want to use zen mode gdarm. I understand complex bans are not ideal at all nor will I advocatefor one, but in my perfect world zen mode gdarm would be in the tier. Gorilla Tactics GDarm is fucking broken so -1000 for GDarm, Dont want to deal with 40% U-Turns ever again (however I think a test for this thing would be hilarious)

oh boy on to some stuff I might get flamed for

:zamazenta-crowned: it pains me to give this thing a 5 because im fucking tired of hearing about it but I think it would be a really interesting suspect test. Without a doubt this would be one of the best mons in the tier, however, im really quite unsure if it would be broken or not. Everybody above has already listed reasons why this would be insane so i wont go into that but I think on the sheer fact of shutting the very vocal minority up, we should test Zama-C (We also havent had a retest for mon that started ubers in a while so I think this would be super cool).

:cinderace: 3 I really dont care if this leaves or not. In a vacuum its 100% broken with its insane pivoting and breaking ability but I feel it does a lot for the tier. Two of its most common checks in bro & pex would be super without it in the tier regardless, right now cinderace basically forces the two to run rocky helmet to chip it, which means these two regenerator beasts are forced to run a less good item. That doesnt really sound healthy at face but I think it actually makes these two a lot more manageable. Slowbro would just be spamming boots which means it doesnt get punished by hazards like it does now, making it super annoying basically getting regen+teles for free 90% of the time. Pex would be free to run boots, sludge, shed shell which also makes pex more annoying to deal with. Ace leaving also opens up a disgusting amount of fat cores (looking at you tang + slows) which I frankly would rather not deal with. Ace is also one of the best speed controls in the tier if you run jolly or use sucker, which is something the tier honestly lacks at the moment given we dont have a lot of mons that are this fast. Unlike gear, its also very manageable from the builder. I also think its more so boots that make this a bit much rather than cinder. I do think its a little much in the grand scheme of things but I think its more of a necessary evil which prevents floodgates from being opened.

:slowbro::slowking::blissey::clefable: 5 fuck this move man, give me all the anti-ban teleport arguments you want. you can not convince me that this isnt unhealthy. the move itself isnt broken but jesus fuck the combinations that occur due to its existence are just obnoxious. Teleport+Regen, Teleport+Wish, Teleport+Boots, Teleport+FS etc... I consider basically all of these uncompetitive and brain dead, there is no upside to these existing and most of the time they just force long brain dead games where nothing happens for turns on end. I find it better just to ban the common denominator between all of these rather than banning all of them cause thats just absurd. If Cind leaves stuff like this just becomes way more popular than it already is. murder it please, at least there can be some drawback for clicking u turn. theres is no downside in click teleport ever

:heavy-duty-boots: i think this is a interesting discussion piece. The item itself isnt broken, nor is most of the mons that utilize it, however, theres is that 1%, like cinderace, are thrown way over the edge due to this item. If it was up to me I'd test them, however, I think a more in depth discussion is really needed to determine if we should ban something that has made a small percentage of pokemon really broken or if we should keep it around because the majority of the pokemon that use it arent problematic. Personally I see no reason to keep these around as it doesnt really benefit the meta in anyway and they just cause problems with pokemon that really benefit from them, but I can completely understand people who think we should just ban the mons that the item makes broken rather than the item.
 
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:ss/cinderace:
This is something that is probably unmanageable in my opinion, though I could be convinced otherwise. It's extremely difficult to switch into though it's given a bit more trouble since DLC2 with the metagame adding more bulky Ground-types that can take advantage of its typing on switch-in. Still, Libero is an incredible ability that can turn the tables on many mons that Cinderace could never contest 1:1 otherwise. I'd say it's definitely worth a suspect test soon.

:ss/magearna:
This is imo the worst offender right now. It just has too much set variety. People will say the WP sets are bad, but they are more matchup reliant than anything and can leave an unprepared team devastated quickly. The Specs set is obviously the most dangerous. Imo that set really puts a huge damper on Rain strategies and in general limits counterplay significantly. Shift Gear + Calm Mind sets are also rather gimmicky but the surprise nature of these sets imo can really put even skilled players on the back burner just if they guess the set wrong for a single turn.

:ss/toxapex:
Toxapex is really borderline for me. For one, it loses to a ton of competent offensive Pokemon 1:1 including Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Garchomp, etc., and really struggles with the Slow twins. On the other hand, I think its presence in the metagame does forcea choice between a smaller number of offensive threats on the opponent's team, and it bolsters the already difficult to deal with Future Sight strategies on the opponent's team. I think it's at risk of being overcentralizing, but not necessarily broken in practice.

:ss/tornadus-therian:
I think there are bigger fish to fry at the moment, and it's possible that this could end up being balanced over time. It is definitely something that's been on my radar since its release though, and I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes overwhelming if say, Rain offense were to come back into the forefront of the metagame again.

:ss/slowbro: :ss/blissey:
I don't think Teleport on its own is broken at all and it's incumbent upon the council and playerbase to identify individual cases where it may lead to uncompetitive strategy. Slowbro may be overpowered since its physical bulk can complement a Teleport core with Blissey, something Slowking cannot do as well. It can also pair up with Slowking-G (which thankfully lacks the move) which obviously regular Slowking can't do. Frankly the HDB + Regenerator + Teleport strategy is pretty obnoxious to deal with but there are few enough Pokemon to abuse this strategy that the (fairly) obvious solution would be to ban any broken Pokemon that abuse this strategy. Even if that means sending Slowbro and/or Blissey to Ubers. I understand this sounds drastic but it's a far better move than banning the move entirely.

:ss/darmanitan-galar:
Obviously this has no place in OU.

:ss/zamazenta-crowned:
This is really a rather silly idea and it's bizarre to me that it's garnered so much traction. There's a reason why Pokemon with this type of BST are automatically banned to Ubers. I suppose that I'm not necessarily opposed to a suspect once everything that's broken is banned because it'll be pretty obvious that it's overcentralizing, quickly. It's absurdly bulky AND fast AND powerful for the tier. WIth its ability granting it a free Defense boost it survives absurd attacks like Adamant Choice Scarf Victini's V-Create. It's easy to see how a breaker of this nature would allow for controversial strategies, such as Future Sight (with or withour Teleport) or Wish + Teleport to flourish.

:ss/zygarde:
I don't really care enough about this mon to go into a ton of detail, but it should remain in Ubers due to its usable bulk, decent typing, and insane coverage with Thousand Arrows making many typical checks to Ground-types irrelevant.



:slowbro::slowking::blissey::clefable: 5 fuck this move man, give me all the anti-ban teleport arguments you want. you can not convince me that this isnt unhealthy. the move itself isnt broken but jesus fuck the combinations that occur due to its existence are just obnoxious. Teleport+Regen, Teleport+Wish, Teleport+Boots, Teleport+FS etc... I consider basically all of these uncompetitive and brain dead, there is no upside to these existing and most of the time they just force long brain dead games where nothing happens for turns on end. I find it better just to ban the common denominator between all of these rather than banning all of them cause thats just absurd. If Cind leaves stuff like this just becomes way more popular than it already is. murder it please, at least there can be some drawback for clicking u turn. theres is no downside in click teleport ever
This argument makes no sense to me. There is absolutely a downside in clicking Teleport in many situations, namely involving taking a Knock Off or simply taking enough damage to get KO'd prior to switching out. In doing so you lose your slow pivot and can't get your wallbreakers or weather/terrain/TR setters/abusers in safely. The controversial strategies that you've provided (with the exception of Teleport + Boots, which I've rarely seen discussed as a "broken" strategy) are only accessible viably by 3 Pokemon in OU. I don't know why people act as though banning 3 Pokemon to Ubers is more drastic than banning a move that will have an impact downstream on every teier.
 

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Certain Offensive Mons such as Hex Wisp / Choice Specs Dragapult, Choice Specs Koko, Choice Scarf Heatran and Victini, and Choice Scarf Lando-T all threaten Zama-C pretty well. Bulky Quiver Dance Volcarona and Aegislash also only take damage from wild charge, which makes them relatively good checks. Actually Lando is a great check if Zama-C is not running an all out attacker set with Ice Fang.
I wouldn't call "threatening" getting worn down to OHKO range after two switchins and being unable to KO back, and the only things there that can threaten it and be faster than it (not even with an OHKO btw) and aren't exclusive to sun like Choice Scarf Heatran are Scarf Victini, which 1. is rocks weak, 2. can't OHKO with V-Create (Calcs below), and 3. is niche itself, and Scarf Landorus, which despite being good speed control hates being worn down and is easily abusable. If Bulky QD Volcarona enters on a howl, it gets 2hkod by behemoth bash and fails to OHKO Zamazenta at +1, and Aegislash can deal with it, getting 3hkod by +1 Wild Charge if shield, although fails to 2hko itself and is setup fodder, without mentioning it has to resort to shield form to not be helpless defensively against it, which can be easily abused by the Zamazenta-C user.
Zamazenta-C is a mon that can barely be checked defensively by the likes of Quagsire, and would likely make offense useless. Although a suspect test would be interesting i think it's still pretty ridicoulous to suspect test something that can set up on a Garchomp's super effective earthquake and KO while Garchomp fails to KO.

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 109-130 (31.5 - 37.6%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 121-143 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Volcarona: 189-222 (50.6 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 272-324 (78.8 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
160 Atk Victini V-create vs. +1 80 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 218-260 (63.1 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 168-198 (48.6 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 307-363 (109.2 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 216-256 (62.6 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 340-402 (107.2 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 80 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 205-244 (59.4 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 336-396 (94.1 - 110.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 80 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 146-174 (42.3 - 50.4%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 159-187 (41.6 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 80 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 170-204 (49.2 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Landorus-Therian: 129-153 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 

Baloor

MORBIDLY A BEAST
is a Tiering Contributor
This argument makes no sense to me. There is absolutely a downside in clicking Teleport in many situations, namely involving taking a Knock Off or simply taking enough damage to get KO'd prior to switching out. In doing so you lose your slow pivot and can't get your wallbreakers or weather/terrain/TR setters/abusers in safely. The controversial strategies that you've provided (with the exception of Teleport + Boots, which I've rarely seen discussed as a "broken" strategy) are only accessible viably by 3 Pokemon in OU. I don't know why people act as though banning 3 Pokemon to Ubers is more drastic than banning a move that will have an impact downstream on every teier.
so you think slowbro, slowking, blissey & clefable should be removed due to their access to one arguably broken move, opposed to banning that one move so we can save a number of pokemon that are perfectly fine without it? If we ban all of those we're removing like 1/3 of our defensive options. I would like a reasoning for blissey of all things being broken aside from its access to teleport.
 
so you think slowbro, slowking, blissey & clefable should be removed due to their access to one arguably broken move, opposed to banning that one move so we can save a number of pokemon that are perfectly fine without it? If we ban all of those we're removing like 1/3 of our defensive options. I would like a reasoning for blissey of all things being broken aside from its access to teleport.
I mean even then I dont think teleport is necessarily broken. It's only really broken in conjunction with regenerator. Tele clef isnt really broken. Just really really good. Same with Blissey.
 
so you think slowbro, slowking, blissey & clefable should be removed due to their access to one arguably broken move, opposed to banning that one move so we can save a number of pokemon that are perfectly fine without it? If we ban all of those we're removing like 1/3 of our defensive options. I would like a reasoning for blissey of all things being broken aside from its access to teleport.
No, I don't think we should remove all of those Pokémon. I think that IF any of these mons are broken with the move, then they should be considered for bans over the move. Frankly I don't think Wish Port Clefable is an issue and it hasn't been since the Dracovish metagame in which every defensive or balance team required the same core to avoid being ripped apart by Vish and its offensive partners. I frankly don't see a problem with Blissey at all. Its access to HDB + Teleport actually opens up the number of teams it can be run on as it's otherwise a passive momentum sink that can only be run on stall and is frankly outclassed by Chansey in that role. What it gains in being able to act as a pivot for offensive partners it gives up a ton in being a special wall. The Slow twins are a bit more problematic due to Future Sight and Regenerator, but they're far from being impenetrable. But the problem of their strategies is exacerbated by having broken wallbreakers in the tier. But ultimately, do I think banning a few Teleport users is better than implementing a move ban that will negatively impact all tiers and add another ruleset to a tier for a move that is only situationally (and also only arguably) problematic? No Brainer, for me at least, yes
 
Here's my thoughts on what I put down on the survey (I forget my exact numbers)

Cinderace 4
While Cinderace is a terror, I don't think it's broken. I've had one game where its gone for a 5 mon sweepbut that was late game, and their mons were chipped hard. It's a phenomenal pokemon, but I feel the format is only now really adapting for a more pivot heavy metagame, with a lot more rocky helmet and knock off users to punish HDB pivots. And, yeah, it has a deep move pool, but 4mms is really rough for it. I'd vote No Ban in a suspect for it.

Magearna 5
Yeah, its broken. Specs, AV and scarf can all be handled to a point, but the stored power setup set is just way too much, especially with dual screens.

Toxapex 2
Nope,not broken. Just a phenomenal, universal regen wall.

Tornadus-t 1
So much hype, but my how it never took off... Its an amazing regen pivot and control mon, and the hype NP set just never flew, mainly due to the inaccuracies. I don't feel its ban worthy

Teleport 3
Its strong, but, with the complexities of lower tiers, I really think we should instead look at the users, rather than the move in general. It really allows you to play off of the information game, and, the biggest users in blissey, clef and the slow duo handle it well.

Onto the unbans
Darmanitan. Just no
Too broken. It's power is silly, and should stay banned

Zygarde. nope
Zyg is just way too good too. Its flag ship glare+sub set was stupid. And Thousand arrows is just wrong, giving it very few defensive checks.

Zama meh
I'll bite. It could have a cute suspect, maybe AFD drop it, and see how the community reacts for the day.

On extra comments:
I'd say slowbro and Rillaboom should both be on the radar.
Slowbro from before with teleport+regen... It can be too much, and be a solid enabler to the formats strongest threats.But also with Future Sight, it is brutal when you lose something to it.
Rillaboom is more simple: grassy glide, especially banded, can get quite silly, and I feel its the reason a lot of frailer pokemon now live in lower tiers. Though, it falls to a lot of the same pivot traps as cinderace, and there are a ton of easy checks to it, in heatran (beware of high horse power. I've caught a few too many out for that), corv, zapdos, buzzwole and moltres.

I also don't think boots are broken. A ban would cause a huge shift through the lower tiers.
 

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