Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

:cinderace:

The bunny is incredibly unhealthy at the moment, but not absolutely broken. The real factor that everyone agrees on being a problem is its synergy with The Boots. Getting omni-STAB on U-Turn is already pretty silly, especially with its high attack, but being able to ignore the problem with switch spamming is definitely causing problems. 4/5.

:magearna:

Ban this thing oh my god it's so toxic. It wasn't fun to deal with last generation with its 50 different sets. It wasn't fun to deal with in Isle of Armor OU with its Specs nonsense. It's certainly not any more fun to deal with today with the exact same problems as before. Steel/Fairy is damn near perfect typing, Soul-Heart is just Grim Neigh, Fleur Cannon kills literally everything. The only issue Mag has today that it didn't have in Isle of Armor is Heatran. It still has coverage and secondary sets for days, and Heatran can get exploited by Mag's teammates. Ban it soon so I can go back to using Hatterene please. 5/5 (would be 6/5).

:toxapex:

I hate this thing. It has always been on the radar since its release, as it simply shuts down so many Pokemon. If your team does not have a Toxapex answer then it probably is going to struggle. Stuff that would be low-key broken like Urshifu-R and Volcarona can't break it without either extra boosts or dropping important moves for coverage. Every time discussion about this Pokemon starts it inevitably turns into "yeah it's causing problems but think of all the problems that will occur without it", which yeah it makes sense, but I hate this necessary evil thing. It's still evil. 4/5.

:tornadus-therian:

It's not a problem. Yet. In NatDex OU, it was banned for simply providing too much free momentum. Having access to every utility option, Regenerator +Boots, and Nasty Plot basically ensured that it would accomplish something while it was on the field. Right now the meta is at a point where it isn't the most pressing matter, but I could easily see it becoming too much after a few shifts. 3/5.

:zamazenta-crowned:

We haven't had any real discussion on this guy since the last survey, but honestly I feel like a suspect of it wouldn't be too disasterous. My big question with it is "what is it going to accomplish when it's on the field?' Is it truly going to be so good at what it does that it shouldn't be allowed in OU? As a wall it does have a genuinely good quality in a 4x Stealth Rock resist, which might be interesting to see how that messes with the defensive metagame. I feel like a test for it would be interesting. 3/5.

:darmanitan-galar:

keep banned for all of eternity lmao it doesn't matter if it's scarf+band or double band or boots+band it's hilariously overpowered and nothing can change my mind on that doing 40% with resisted U-Turn is straight broken

:zygarde:

lol no
 
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I wanted to show the set of lando i am using right know, the choiceband set. It is more useful that it sounds, many will think that this is bs and I just post whatever I want but no. 1ko pex is no joke. slowbro is 2ko, zapdos is meal and spe edf swuamper too. Let me show some calcs.

Earthquake 49.7 - 58.8%
U-turn 46.7 - 55.3%
Stone Edge 33.2 - 39.3%
Knock Off 64.4 - 76.1% :slowbro:


Earthquake 102.6 - 121%
U-turn 11.8 - 14.1%
Stone Edge 34.2 - 40.4%
Knock Off 33.2 - 39.1% :toxapex:


Earthquake 23.1 - 27.2%
U-turn 86.8 - 102.6%
Stone Edge 61.8 - 73%
Knock Off 60.1 - 70.9% :rillaboom:


Earthquake 84.8 - 100%
U-turn 39.4 - 46.7%
Stone Edge 28.2 - 33.3%
Knock Off 54.9 - 64.7% :garchomp:


Earthquake 0 - 0%
U-turn 16.1 - 19%
Stone Edge 91.3 - 108%
Knock Off 44.3 - 52.4% :zapdos:






https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1284475703
 
Pokedom10 said:
:toxapex:

I hate this thing. It has always been on the radar since its release, as it simply shuts down so many Pokemon. If your team does not have a Toxapex answer then it probably is going to struggle. Stuff that would be low-key broken like Urshifu-R and Volcarona can't break it without either extra boosts or dropping important moves for coverage. Every time discussion about this Pokemon starts it inevitably turns into "yeah it's causing problems but think of all the problems that will occur without it", which yeah it makes sense, but I hate this necessary evil thing. It's still evil. 4/5.
I don’t understand your argument here. Sure, Pex checks a lot of stuff, but it’s a wall. It’s supposed to. There are plenty of mons that can beat Pex, think Koko, Zapdos, Rillaboom, Chomp, Lando-T, Lele, Zeraora, Kyurem, Melmetal etc. Basically any breaker with a strong Electric, Psychic or Ground move. If your team doesn’t have that, it’s a bad team, and would be even if Pex didn’t exist. And actually if you look at the viability ranking thread, there’s discussion about Pex dropping, since a lot of top tier threats can beat it. Pex also suffers from 4MSS slightly atm, since it has to run Recover, is setup bait if it doesn’t run Haze, and then has to pick two from Knock Off, Scald and Toxic/T-Spikes. Without Knock Off, Pex can‘t remove HDB, without Scald it can’t fish for burns and has no damage output, and without Toxic or T-Spikes it gets beaten by walls. Perhaps you could clarify exactly why you think Pex is broken, because I don’t think it counters nearly as much stuff as you seem to think it does.
 
Cinder:

I gave a 4. It's strong, a bit too strong but it's not an insta-ban. I don't think anything in the meta is.

Mage:

I gave it a 4. I play sand with Excadrill which means I almost always beat any set up set and Specs set unless it's FB then I still revenge kill but have to play carefully. It's very strong but I have little problems with it.

Zygarde:

I use Buzz so it was never a problem for me, also Zolt almost always beat Zygarde eith D-meteor unless it missed, however I cansee why it's broken but I'm impartial.

Darm-G:

lmao nope

Torn-T:

It's an amazing pivot and a decent late game sweeper/cleaner but not close to broken.

Zama:

I say unban it, I'd like to test it and see how it is as it could be great or broken or fine. I'm just excited to try it.

Also it being a box legendary is not a reason to keep it banned, KyuB was unbanned or 3 gens and it was a box legendary.

Anything Else:

Fuck Rilla Boom. Fuck it and it's stupid little monkey as grassy gliding face.

Again I play sand and Rilla Boom basically makes you play 4-6 against it since Exca and Hippo get destroyed by it. Hell even Zolt can't switch in on Knock off or stomping Tantrum or Super Power or even banded Grassy Glide or U-Turn because it'll be worn down fast and destroyed. It requires the use of Buzzwole, Zapdos or Moltres on Sand and praying and even then ya risk being crippled by knock off anyways. It also makes Rain a complete and utter bitch to play.

It completely takes advantage of the Boots metagame reliance on having a ground type to stop volt-turn spam by contributing to Volt turn spam, beating any Ground type in the tier and crippling stuff with knock off.

It takes heavy advantage of Future sight allowing it to beat one of its few counters in Buzz and is only beaten by Mandibuzz in it's standard Band set and the SD set has an entirely different of counters.

It also enables and turns Hawlucha into something crazy (Grasy Terrain is without a bet Halwucha's best terrain.)

Seriously underrated and if Mag/Cinder are banned I heavily implore everyone to look into this stupid gorilla.
 

AnimaticLunatic

I COULD BE BANNED!
With all due respsect to everyone here, I will have to ask, what are you all thinking to put Tornadus-Therian as lesser threat then Cindarace?



:ss/tornadus-therian:

Tornadus-Therian @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Timid Nature
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- U-turn

Now, I am talking only about offensive sets here, as defensive ones are fine, lesser Toxapex with a defog If someone asked me to describe them.
Offensive sets, as one I posted above (best non weather relient one in my opinion) are where this monster truly shines.

My problem, as with Cindarace, is not its breaking power, as we have many strong breakers in the tire such as Rillaboom, Garchomp, Land-T... My problem is comes is when we factor in its speed and longivity thanks to regenerator. It is fifth fastest regular OU pokemon, only behind Tapu Koko, Barraskewda (only played on rain teams), Dragapult and Regieleki (who is strictly seen as screen setter these days). So offensively checking it is almost impossible. You will almost always need to take the hit first, but here is where we come to another problem.It is way to hard to kill for how offensively inclined it is.

First, its bulk 79/80/90 is solid so it can take a hit if it needs to such as Jolly Cindarace pyro ball. But unlike similar bulky pokemon such as mentioned bunny, who is famous for how long it can stay into the game thanks to HDB, it is even harder to chip down. Thanks to Regenerator combined with its own foot wear. So good luck taking it into the health range where you can finish it off.
It is not even that hard to get into the position where it can fire off its dangerous attacks since it can come on to many dangerous attackers (with caution) such as Kartana, Rillaboom, Earhtquake Choice Locked Lan-T and many more. And that is not even counting pivoting moves.

If your team does not either have Slowking galar, thunder wave Blissey/Slowing or Zapdos (only reliable counter/check that is classified as OU mind you) you have no real long term solution for it. All of other "checks" either get worn down incredibly quickly (Magerna) or bow down to focus blast hit. U turn feels like best filler move since well, it is usually risk free since you are probably bringing in something that can take advantage of incoming enemy pokemon. And on top of it, now it has nasty plot so it has easier time breaking through its checks and teams. And even then, it can run Weather Ball on Sand teams if is that worried about Zapdos as plus 2 always OHKO 252 health/ 0 SPD eved one.

The only real downside to it is that you are praying that your 70% moves actually hit but even if you miss, it is not really a big deal since not many defensive/offensive pokemon can actually OHKO or cripple you (with status or knock off) to hard. Even toxic does not really harm it if you are getting lucky with your hits. And without your boots, you can still get back to full thanks to regenerator, it just means you will need to get rid of rocks if you want it to take a hit from things such as Rillaboom.

I feel that once people start using it more and more, they are going to realise how overbearing it actually is.
So
 
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My thoughts on the survey:

Cinderace: 4, this mon is pretty powerful atm. I would be down to suspect it, and if I could vote I would give it a hard ban. Broken Fire Bunny is broken, but personally, I think that

Magearna: 5, absolutely no real counterplay. No actual legit switch-ins exists, and it's versatility is insane. The amount of sets that can be run on the Broken Steel Bunny is absurd, and it's presence in the meta game is unhealthy. Ban this first please.

Zama-C: I still put a 4, I think people are massively overestimating it's power. It Is a legit concern that it has a deadly combo of speed and bulk, but this really doesn't matter when it cannot hit for shit. Plenty of physically defensive walls have their way with Zama-C, and finding revenge-killers aren't as hard as one might think. I would personally at least want to see it in suspected in the tier. I do agree however that the bunnies should be dealt with first before bringing in Ubers mons in general.

G-Darm: 1. This thing is too powerful. Near neutral coverage, amazing ability, and U-Turn. Enough said.

Zygarde: So I accidentally put a 5, but I meant a 2. Still don't think he should be in the tier, but if a suspect happened and he wasn't OP than aight.

Torn-T: 1, I am not so concerned about Torn-T being broken. It is rather inconsistent outside of rain, and while it hits hard there are plenty of revenge killers capable of putting it in it's place. Not to mention certain spdef walls as well.

Toxapex: 1, I don't think it is overpowered. I hate it, but just because I hate it doesn't make it ban worthy.
 
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A suspect for this thing would be interesting, and personally I want it to happen. However, Zama-C would be pretty much for OU for a number of reasons:
1. 92 / 145 (+1) / 145 bulk, it's just ridiculous;
2. Steel typing grants Toxic and sandstorm immunity;
3. Counterplay is purely defensive, no offensive mons can deal good amount to damage and 128 base speed makes things even harder, who can 2HKO this thing?
Allow me to get into more detail about this point. Pex, Tang, Corv, Skarm, Moltres, Zapdos, Hippo, Tank Chomp... maybe I'm missing other mons but for now let's stick with these. They can cripple or wall Zama-C, but not perfectly. Pex can potentially Scald burn and Moltres haves Flame Body, but if you don't burn Zama, it can answer back with Wild Charge, this move also affects Corv and Skarm. Tang can wall it and cripple with Rocky Helmet and Leech Seed, but it's also setup fodder, as Zama-C learns Howl. Hippo and Tank Chomp are good switch-ins only if you predict the Wild Charge, but again, can they 2HKO? Zapdos is another switch-in, since it resists both Zama-C's STABs and only receives neutral damage from Wild Charge, and Zapdos also learns Heat Wave and can paralyze with Static, allowing Zapdos to win the speed tier and potentially win on a 1v1 situation if parahax destroys Zama-C, with this in mind Zapdos can potentially be the best check... but not everything is based around 1v1s and Zama-C can receive Rain support to weaken Heat Wave's power. Speaking about support, Zama-C is also very thankful about Grassy Surge and Screens Support, the former can give it passive recovery and thus some longevity while also getting rid of the ground weakness unless you have something like High Horsepower, the latter basically make everything only tickle Zama-C, and relying on critical hits is not an option.
TLDR, Zama-C can Howl on half of the previously mentioned mons, and beat each one of them.
 
View attachment 316704
A suspect for this thing would be interesting, and personally I want it to happen. However, Zama-C would be pretty much for OU for a number of reasons:
1. 92 / 145 (+1) / 145 bulk, it's just ridiculous;
2. Steel typing grants Toxic and sandstorm immunity;
3. Counterplay is purely defensive, no offensive mons can deal good amount to damage and 128 base speed makes things even harder, who can 2HKO this thing?
Allow me to get into more detail about this point. Pex, Tang, Corv, Skarm, Moltres, Zapdos, Hippo, Tank Chomp... maybe I'm missing other mons but for now let's stick with these. They can cripple or wall Zama-C, but not perfectly. Pex can potentially Scald burn and Moltres haves Flame Body, but if you don't burn Zama, it can answer back with Wild Charge, this move also affects Corv and Skarm. Tang can wall it and cripple with Rocky Helmet and Leech Seed, but it's also setup fodder, as Zama-C learns Howl. Hippo and Tank Chomp are good switch-ins only if you predict the Wild Charge, but again, can they 2HKO? Zapdos is another switch-in, since it resists both Zama-C's STABs and only receives neutral damage from Wild Charge, and Zapdos also learns Heat Wave and can paralyze with Static, allowing Zapdos to win the speed tier and potentially win on a 1v1 situation if parahax destroys Zama-C, with this in mind Zapdos can potentially be the best check... but not everything is based around 1v1s and Zama-C can receive Rain support to weaken Heat Wave's power. Speaking about support, Zama-C is also very thankful about Grassy Surge and Screens Support, the former can give it passive recovery and thus some longevity while also getting rid of the ground weakness unless you have something like High Horsepower, the latter basically make everything only tickle Zama-C, and relying on critical hits is not an option.
TLDR, Zama-C can Howl on half of the previously mentioned mons, and beat each one of them.
Certain Offensive Mons such as Hex Wisp / Choice Specs Dragapult, Choice Specs Koko, Choice Scarf Heatran and Victini, and Choice Scarf Lando-T all threaten Zama-C pretty well. Bulky Quiver Dance Volcarona and Aegislash also only take damage from wild charge, which makes them relatively good checks. Actually Lando is a great check if Zama-C is not running an all out attacker set with Ice Fang.
 

Baloor

Tigers Management
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I want to put my 2 cents in considering i feel like my takes on some of these are a bit different than whats consensus between people that know what theyre talking about. I have no idea what i actually put on the survey cause i did it fast but I do remember my thought process for what i polled so i can give a general number

:magearna: 5 this thing honestly shouldve just been quickbanned, we really didnt need this survey to determine that. like we've really beaten the conversation on this thing to death and everybody agrees its insanely unhealthy and it has no anti ban arguments.

:zygarde: 1 lol fuck no this mon is stupid

:tornadus-therian: 2 torn is perfectly fine at the moment (hence why i gave it 2), but given how i think the meta will shape up after we ban the current threats i can see it potentially becoming insanely annoying. ill keep the reasoning short but regen + boots + insane breaking ability + one of the best pivots in the tier can get really out of hand. Its pretty fine at the moment though, its also kinda hard to slot onto teams cause theres just some better things in the roles in performs. With a couple shifts and bans it might be worth looking into torn, however in the current landscape its perfectly fine.

:toxapex: 2 i really only gave this a 2 cause it can be really obnoxious given the right support but in reality its not broken at all. dies to a lot of things and checks a lot of things. lowkey its keeping the tier from falling apart even though its not even super good rn.

:darmanitan-galar: 5/-1000 for the sheer reason i just want to use zen mode gdarm. I understand complex bans are not ideal at all nor will I advocatefor one, but in my perfect world zen mode gdarm would be in the tier. Gorilla Tactics GDarm is fucking broken so -1000 for GDarm, Dont want to deal with 40% U-Turns ever again (however I think a test for this thing would be hilarious)

oh boy on to some stuff I might get flamed for

:zamazenta-crowned: it pains me to give this thing a 5 because im fucking tired of hearing about it but I think it would be a really interesting suspect test. Without a doubt this would be one of the best mons in the tier, however, im really quite unsure if it would be broken or not. Everybody above has already listed reasons why this would be insane so i wont go into that but I think on the sheer fact of shutting the very vocal minority up, we should test Zama-C (We also havent had a retest for mon that started ubers in a while so I think this would be super cool).

:cinderace: 3 I really dont care if this leaves or not. In a vacuum its 100% broken with its insane pivoting and breaking ability but I feel it does a lot for the tier. Two of its most common checks in bro & pex would be super without it in the tier regardless, right now cinderace basically forces the two to run rocky helmet to chip it, which means these two regenerator beasts are forced to run a less good item. That doesnt really sound healthy at face but I think it actually makes these two a lot more manageable. Slowbro would just be spamming boots which means it doesnt get punished by hazards like it does now, making it super annoying basically getting regen+teles for free 90% of the time. Pex would be free to run boots, sludge, shed shell which also makes pex more annoying to deal with. Ace leaving also opens up a disgusting amount of fat cores (looking at you tang + slows) which I frankly would rather not deal with. Ace is also one of the best speed controls in the tier if you run jolly or use sucker, which is something the tier honestly lacks at the moment given we dont have a lot of mons that are this fast. Unlike gear, its also very manageable from the builder. I also think its more so boots that make this a bit much rather than cinder. I do think its a little much in the grand scheme of things but I think its more of a necessary evil which prevents floodgates from being opened.

:slowbro::slowking::blissey::clefable: 5 fuck this move man, give me all the anti-ban teleport arguments you want. you can not convince me that this isnt unhealthy. the move itself isnt broken but jesus fuck the combinations that occur due to its existence are just obnoxious. Teleport+Regen, Teleport+Wish, Teleport+Boots, Teleport+FS etc... I consider basically all of these uncompetitive and brain dead, there is no upside to these existing and most of the time they just force long brain dead games where nothing happens for turns on end. I find it better just to ban the common denominator between all of these rather than banning all of them cause thats just absurd. If Cind leaves stuff like this just becomes way more popular than it already is. murder it please, at least there can be some drawback for clicking u turn. theres is no downside in click teleport ever

:heavy-duty-boots: i think this is a interesting discussion piece. The item itself isnt broken, nor is most of the mons that utilize it, however, theres is that 1%, like cinderace, are thrown way over the edge due to this item. If it was up to me I'd test them, however, I think a more in depth discussion is really needed to determine if we should ban something that has made a small percentage of pokemon really broken or if we should keep it around because the majority of the pokemon that use it arent problematic. Personally I see no reason to keep these around as it doesnt really benefit the meta in anyway and they just cause problems with pokemon that really benefit from them, but I can completely understand people who think we should just ban the mons that the item makes broken rather than the item.
 
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:ss/cinderace:
This is something that is probably unmanageable in my opinion, though I could be convinced otherwise. It's extremely difficult to switch into though it's given a bit more trouble since DLC2 with the metagame adding more bulky Ground-types that can take advantage of its typing on switch-in. Still, Libero is an incredible ability that can turn the tables on many mons that Cinderace could never contest 1:1 otherwise. I'd say it's definitely worth a suspect test soon.

:ss/magearna:
This is imo the worst offender right now. It just has too much set variety. People will say the WP sets are bad, but they are more matchup reliant than anything and can leave an unprepared team devastated quickly. The Specs set is obviously the most dangerous. Imo that set really puts a huge damper on Rain strategies and in general limits counterplay significantly. Shift Gear + Calm Mind sets are also rather gimmicky but the surprise nature of these sets imo can really put even skilled players on the back burner just if they guess the set wrong for a single turn.

:ss/toxapex:
Toxapex is really borderline for me. For one, it loses to a ton of competent offensive Pokemon 1:1 including Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Garchomp, etc., and really struggles with the Slow twins. On the other hand, I think its presence in the metagame does forcea choice between a smaller number of offensive threats on the opponent's team, and it bolsters the already difficult to deal with Future Sight strategies on the opponent's team. I think it's at risk of being overcentralizing, but not necessarily broken in practice.

:ss/tornadus-therian:
I think there are bigger fish to fry at the moment, and it's possible that this could end up being balanced over time. It is definitely something that's been on my radar since its release though, and I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes overwhelming if say, Rain offense were to come back into the forefront of the metagame again.

:ss/slowbro: :ss/blissey:
I don't think Teleport on its own is broken at all and it's incumbent upon the council and playerbase to identify individual cases where it may lead to uncompetitive strategy. Slowbro may be overpowered since its physical bulk can complement a Teleport core with Blissey, something Slowking cannot do as well. It can also pair up with Slowking-G (which thankfully lacks the move) which obviously regular Slowking can't do. Frankly the HDB + Regenerator + Teleport strategy is pretty obnoxious to deal with but there are few enough Pokemon to abuse this strategy that the (fairly) obvious solution would be to ban any broken Pokemon that abuse this strategy. Even if that means sending Slowbro and/or Blissey to Ubers. I understand this sounds drastic but it's a far better move than banning the move entirely.

:ss/darmanitan-galar:
Obviously this has no place in OU.

:ss/zamazenta-crowned:
This is really a rather silly idea and it's bizarre to me that it's garnered so much traction. There's a reason why Pokemon with this type of BST are automatically banned to Ubers. I suppose that I'm not necessarily opposed to a suspect once everything that's broken is banned because it'll be pretty obvious that it's overcentralizing, quickly. It's absurdly bulky AND fast AND powerful for the tier. WIth its ability granting it a free Defense boost it survives absurd attacks like Adamant Choice Scarf Victini's V-Create. It's easy to see how a breaker of this nature would allow for controversial strategies, such as Future Sight (with or withour Teleport) or Wish + Teleport to flourish.

:ss/zygarde:
I don't really care enough about this mon to go into a ton of detail, but it should remain in Ubers due to its usable bulk, decent typing, and insane coverage with Thousand Arrows making many typical checks to Ground-types irrelevant.



:slowbro::slowking::blissey::clefable: 5 fuck this move man, give me all the anti-ban teleport arguments you want. you can not convince me that this isnt unhealthy. the move itself isnt broken but jesus fuck the combinations that occur due to its existence are just obnoxious. Teleport+Regen, Teleport+Wish, Teleport+Boots, Teleport+FS etc... I consider basically all of these uncompetitive and brain dead, there is no upside to these existing and most of the time they just force long brain dead games where nothing happens for turns on end. I find it better just to ban the common denominator between all of these rather than banning all of them cause thats just absurd. If Cind leaves stuff like this just becomes way more popular than it already is. murder it please, at least there can be some drawback for clicking u turn. theres is no downside in click teleport ever
This argument makes no sense to me. There is absolutely a downside in clicking Teleport in many situations, namely involving taking a Knock Off or simply taking enough damage to get KO'd prior to switching out. In doing so you lose your slow pivot and can't get your wallbreakers or weather/terrain/TR setters/abusers in safely. The controversial strategies that you've provided (with the exception of Teleport + Boots, which I've rarely seen discussed as a "broken" strategy) are only accessible viably by 3 Pokemon in OU. I don't know why people act as though banning 3 Pokemon to Ubers is more drastic than banning a move that will have an impact downstream on every teier.
 

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Certain Offensive Mons such as Hex Wisp / Choice Specs Dragapult, Choice Specs Koko, Choice Scarf Heatran and Victini, and Choice Scarf Lando-T all threaten Zama-C pretty well. Bulky Quiver Dance Volcarona and Aegislash also only take damage from wild charge, which makes them relatively good checks. Actually Lando is a great check if Zama-C is not running an all out attacker set with Ice Fang.
I wouldn't call "threatening" getting worn down to OHKO range after two switchins and being unable to KO back, and the only things there that can threaten it and be faster than it (not even with an OHKO btw) and aren't exclusive to sun like Choice Scarf Heatran are Scarf Victini, which 1. is rocks weak, 2. can't OHKO with V-Create (Calcs below), and 3. is niche itself, and Scarf Landorus, which despite being good speed control hates being worn down and is easily abusable. If Bulky QD Volcarona enters on a howl, it gets 2hkod by behemoth bash and fails to OHKO Zamazenta at +1, and Aegislash can deal with it, getting 3hkod by +1 Wild Charge if shield, although fails to 2hko itself and is setup fodder, without mentioning it has to resort to shield form to not be helpless defensively against it, which can be easily abused by the Zamazenta-C user.
Zamazenta-C is a mon that can barely be checked defensively by the likes of Quagsire, and would likely make offense useless. Although a suspect test would be interesting i think it's still pretty ridicoulous to suspect test something that can set up on a Garchomp's super effective earthquake and KO while Garchomp fails to KO.

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 109-130 (31.5 - 37.6%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 121-143 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Volcarona: 189-222 (50.6 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 272-324 (78.8 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
160 Atk Victini V-create vs. +1 80 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 218-260 (63.1 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 168-198 (48.6 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 307-363 (109.2 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 216-256 (62.6 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 340-402 (107.2 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 80 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 205-244 (59.4 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 336-396 (94.1 - 110.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 80 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 146-174 (42.3 - 50.4%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 159-187 (41.6 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 80 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 170-204 (49.2 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Landorus-Therian: 129-153 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 

Baloor

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This argument makes no sense to me. There is absolutely a downside in clicking Teleport in many situations, namely involving taking a Knock Off or simply taking enough damage to get KO'd prior to switching out. In doing so you lose your slow pivot and can't get your wallbreakers or weather/terrain/TR setters/abusers in safely. The controversial strategies that you've provided (with the exception of Teleport + Boots, which I've rarely seen discussed as a "broken" strategy) are only accessible viably by 3 Pokemon in OU. I don't know why people act as though banning 3 Pokemon to Ubers is more drastic than banning a move that will have an impact downstream on every teier.
so you think slowbro, slowking, blissey & clefable should be removed due to their access to one arguably broken move, opposed to banning that one move so we can save a number of pokemon that are perfectly fine without it? If we ban all of those we're removing like 1/3 of our defensive options. I would like a reasoning for blissey of all things being broken aside from its access to teleport.
 
so you think slowbro, slowking, blissey & clefable should be removed due to their access to one arguably broken move, opposed to banning that one move so we can save a number of pokemon that are perfectly fine without it? If we ban all of those we're removing like 1/3 of our defensive options. I would like a reasoning for blissey of all things being broken aside from its access to teleport.
I mean even then I dont think teleport is necessarily broken. It's only really broken in conjunction with regenerator. Tele clef isnt really broken. Just really really good. Same with Blissey.
 
so you think slowbro, slowking, blissey & clefable should be removed due to their access to one arguably broken move, opposed to banning that one move so we can save a number of pokemon that are perfectly fine without it? If we ban all of those we're removing like 1/3 of our defensive options. I would like a reasoning for blissey of all things being broken aside from its access to teleport.
No, I don't think we should remove all of those Pokémon. I think that IF any of these mons are broken with the move, then they should be considered for bans over the move. Frankly I don't think Wish Port Clefable is an issue and it hasn't been since the Dracovish metagame in which every defensive or balance team required the same core to avoid being ripped apart by Vish and its offensive partners. I frankly don't see a problem with Blissey at all. Its access to HDB + Teleport actually opens up the number of teams it can be run on as it's otherwise a passive momentum sink that can only be run on stall and is frankly outclassed by Chansey in that role. What it gains in being able to act as a pivot for offensive partners it gives up a ton in being a special wall. The Slow twins are a bit more problematic due to Future Sight and Regenerator, but they're far from being impenetrable. But the problem of their strategies is exacerbated by having broken wallbreakers in the tier. But ultimately, do I think banning a few Teleport users is better than implementing a move ban that will negatively impact all tiers and add another ruleset to a tier for a move that is only situationally (and also only arguably) problematic? No Brainer, for me at least, yes
 
Here's my thoughts on what I put down on the survey (I forget my exact numbers)

Cinderace 4
While Cinderace is a terror, I don't think it's broken. I've had one game where its gone for a 5 mon sweepbut that was late game, and their mons were chipped hard. It's a phenomenal pokemon, but I feel the format is only now really adapting for a more pivot heavy metagame, with a lot more rocky helmet and knock off users to punish HDB pivots. And, yeah, it has a deep move pool, but 4mms is really rough for it. I'd vote No Ban in a suspect for it.

Magearna 5
Yeah, its broken. Specs, AV and scarf can all be handled to a point, but the stored power setup set is just way too much, especially with dual screens.

Toxapex 2
Nope,not broken. Just a phenomenal, universal regen wall.

Tornadus-t 1
So much hype, but my how it never took off... Its an amazing regen pivot and control mon, and the hype NP set just never flew, mainly due to the inaccuracies. I don't feel its ban worthy

Teleport 3
Its strong, but, with the complexities of lower tiers, I really think we should instead look at the users, rather than the move in general. It really allows you to play off of the information game, and, the biggest users in blissey, clef and the slow duo handle it well.

Onto the unbans
Darmanitan. Just no
Too broken. It's power is silly, and should stay banned

Zygarde. nope
Zyg is just way too good too. Its flag ship glare+sub set was stupid. And Thousand arrows is just wrong, giving it very few defensive checks.

Zama meh
I'll bite. It could have a cute suspect, maybe AFD drop it, and see how the community reacts for the day.

On extra comments:
I'd say slowbro and Rillaboom should both be on the radar.
Slowbro from before with teleport+regen... It can be too much, and be a solid enabler to the formats strongest threats.But also with Future Sight, it is brutal when you lose something to it.
Rillaboom is more simple: grassy glide, especially banded, can get quite silly, and I feel its the reason a lot of frailer pokemon now live in lower tiers. Though, it falls to a lot of the same pivot traps as cinderace, and there are a ton of easy checks to it, in heatran (beware of high horse power. I've caught a few too many out for that), corv, zapdos, buzzwole and moltres.

I also don't think boots are broken. A ban would cause a huge shift through the lower tiers.
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
I think it's highly unlikely that anything is ever done regarding Boots, although I think that it could be a good thing to explore further, so this is probably pointless, but would banning Boots in OU necessitate them being banned in all of the other tiers? I know that there are other examples of specific tiers having clauses that only apply to that tier, like the NFE Clause in ADV UU, so could there potentially be a Boots Clause where Boots were just banned from SS OU? I'm not sure if there is precedent for this or anything, although I guess that you could argue that the tiering of Mega Stones or Soul Dew shows that items have been tiered separately before, however that is clearly a different scenario than an item like Boots that any Pokemon can utilize. It does feel to me like the tiering of items is different than Pokemon because items like Boots are already allowed in every tier, so it's not like when a Pokemon gets banned from a tier it already can't be played in any of the lower tiers. Again though, I don't think that anything is going to ever be done about Boots, and I understand why Smogon would want to keep its tiering practices as uniform as possible, but it would be a shame if overly-scrupulous lines of thinking prevented at least discussing or testing ways to improve tiers. So as a genuine question, would it theoretically be possible for Boots to only be removed from OU and remain in the lower tiers where they aren't considered by as many players to be problematic? I guess as an extension of this, if Teleport was widely regarded by the knowledgeable portion of the playerbase to be an issue in SS OU, could Teleport just be banned from OU and remain in the other tiers if the players of those tiers don't have an issue with it? I want to reiterate one last time though that I really doubt that action will ever be taken against Boots or Teleport, so I hope that the discussion doesn't get sidetracked on that, but I was curious as to why people keep using the argument that banning Boots from OU would affect the other tiers. Does that necessarily need to be the case?
 
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Given everyone is posting their thoughts on the metagame I'd like to post mine in response.

:cinderace: 5 - I really don't understand why the current sentiment on the thread appears to only talk about one variant of Cinderace as being the issue. This monster has practically 0 reliable defensive counterplay between its standard Boots set, Bulk Up, Work Up and 4a U-turnless sets. The sheer versatility this rabbit has is what makes playing around it so dangerous - you'd think that Toxapex and Slowbro would be decent checks, but then Cinderace pulls out Electro Ball, taking down both of them in a single slot. A similar thing goes for Landorus-Therian and Garchomp - you'd think you'd check nicely, but then Cinderace pulls out Bulk Up, which messes around with how Garchomp and Landorus-Therian can check it, not to mention how easily Cinderace wears down these Pokemon without those options anyway. It doesn't make any of the four checks less splashable, but it does make it considerably easier for Cinderace to just muscle through teams depending on its moveset. This doesn't even account for other options in team slots - most notably, how easy it is for Cinderace to abuse Future Sight as a way for it to get guaranteed progress on practically every single check without messing around much with moveset options. The only real comparison I can make with regards to other broken threats is that Cinderace is at least somewhat revenge killable by the metagame's faster options like Dragapult and Tapu Koko, so it doesn't make it an absolutely unstoppable menace.

:magearna: 4 - Conversely, I feel like people are overblowing Magearna's set versatility in this thread. Whilst it does have a lot of different sets that it can run, the most notable of which being the Stored Power sets, the usage for these sets is not uniform, and it is clear that some sets are much worse than others. When generally talking about counterplay, I believe that it is fair enough to divide Magearna into three sets: Choice Specs, Double Dance and Shift Gear + 3 Attacks. The main issue here with Magearna is that very few Pokemon can take on every single set at once, and that a punish for getting the set wrong can potentially be devastating. Looking into checks and counters for each set, whilst there isn't exactly extreme reliability in checks, they are at least splashable enough to be barely effected by Magearna's departure, and they're also splashable enough to the point where having multiple of these checks on a team doesn't end up being a liability. Checks like Specially Defensive Toxapex, Slowking-Galar and Heatran make counterplay reliable enough to the point where you can usually figure out a Magearna's set on preview, minimizing the potential that it has to damage a team. In addition to this, there are also the checks that work well against Double Dance Magearna like Melmetal, Excadrill and Swords Dance Landorus-Therian that can easily force out Magearna and punish its teammates heavily. An issue arises however between these two sets - some of these Pokemon are lured by Shift Gear + 3 Attacks Magearna, which can easily take advantage of the lack of information that it gives off in comparison to Double Dance Magearna. This means it is for sure suspectable but I don't really have nearly as much of a grudge against it as I would Cinderace, given its more easily defined set boundaries, considerably lower Speed and less initial power besides Fleur Cannon compared to Cinderace. I believe this should either be the next suspect or next in line to Cinderace - I don't really mind either way, but I don't believe it to be broken enough to warrant a quickban like some people are suggesting.

:toxapex: 3 - Highly obnoxious threat that torments team structures. The amount of Pokemon that Toxapex invalidates is astounding; usually strong Pokemon like Flamethrower CM Clefable, Keldeo and Blaziken have generally fallen out of favour for Pokemon that can at least make progress vs Toxapex and I do feel like its effect on the metagame is unhealthy to a degree. However, the metagame has shown that it can quite easily cope with it, and to me, this makes it really difficult to judge Toxapex's actual effect on competitive play. I really think that aside from the inability for certain Pokemon to even harm Toxapex, the thing that really pushes Toxapex to a potentially suspect worthy position is the amount of punishes it can make towards every single check of its own. No check is capable of switching in without eating Knock Off, Toxic or potentially getting Scald burned, making chip from Toxapex considerably harder to stomach for some teams. This makes games quite stale in battles versus it, because the ways of getting around it offensively are often unreliable and are easily chipped. For example, Tapu Lele would be a fantastic answer to Toxapex, and it is, but it generally gets thrown around by Toxic chip to the point where it doesn't actually do enough damage to make up for Toxapex's influence on the game. Future Sight has been used to assist some breakers through the game, but not only has Toxapex shown adaptations to this (for example, the usage of Eject Button allows for Toxapex to not only escape a situation of Future Sight but also has the potential to turn momentum AGAINST the Future Sight user), it also doesn't break Toxapex alone at all, to the point where any variant of Toxapex, even physically defensive variants, can really stomach Future Sights and pivot out without much collateral damage. It's shown that despite the adaptations towards it, Toxapex is also capable of adapting back in return and making things more painful to deal with every time it does so. Definitely a threat to look out for in the near future, possibly after Cinderace and Magearna have been suspected.
Additional Note 1: I do not believe Toxapex's unhealthiness to be correlated with stall at all - stall often utilizes different methods of chip removal that often don't involve Regenerator, which weakens Toxapex's role on those teams, rather I believe it to be too good of a progress stopper for balance teams that can force games to be played much slower in order to get certain Pokemon in position so that Toxapex doesn't just recover off all of the damage it sustains within the game.

:tornadus-therian: 3 - Stop comparing National Dex OU's ban to this metagame - not only does OU lack Z-moves, it also lacked the huge slate that Tornadus-Therian ended up getting the axe in. Rant aside, I think Tornadus-Therian is actually quite dangerous atm and also deserves another look in the future. Substitute + NP sets really help mask the fact that Tornadus-Therian has to rely on 70% accurate moves a lot, and making the assumptions that these moves can and will hit, it really ends up making Tornadus-Therian's effect on the builder more prominent. The few counters that do exist (Tapu Koko, Assault Vest Magearna, Zapdos, and Regieleki to an extent) are all punished by one move of Tornadus-Therian's that it can indeed easily slot onto its various sets. Aside from this, the other variants that also mix in Nasty Plot with pivoting can be really obnoxious to deal with as getting the damage you'd want on Tornadus-Therian over the course of the game is practically impossible with Regenerator pivoting. The general inaccuracy of its moves makes this really difficult to prove, but I do believe that overall, Tornadus-Therian is somewhat troubling for the metagame's health and should be suspected at a later date.

Teleport (:slowbro: / :blissey: / :slowking: / :clefable:): 1 - Port's not broken. The abusers might be, but the entire move doesn't really give me much different of a feeling from U-turn, Flip Turn or Volt Switch on HDB pivots. Realistically I'd like to see Slowbro and Blissey looked at if Teleport ends up becoming so obnoxious that something has to be dealt with in some way.

Heavy-Duty Boots (:tapu koko: / :zeraora: / :dragapult:): 1 - Likewise with Teleport, I see this as more of a powerful item rather than something that should really be thrown out of SS. I actually happen to like its presence more than dislike it - despite the lack of influence of hazards on the metagame, it makes other sources of chip more important and dampens the effect that Stealth Rock has in determining viability of certain Pokemon. Heavy-Duty Boots usage has even started to decline in more recent games of SS OU - instead, to counteract its own existence, some pivots have been running Rocky Helmet as a countermeasure to other pivots like these, and I feel like with this adaptation in mind, Heavy-Duty Boots is more or so settling down in the metagame and cementing its place as an important item like Leftovers, rather than something that is actively toxic to the metagame. When talking about HDB's influence on game length, I do believe that HDB does increase its length but it doesn't really make the game feel any less bad to play - it rather gives another, longer game option that allows more balance based teams to adopt faster Pokemon to patch up some of their weaknesses.

:zamazenta-crowned: 1 - Controversially, I'm more in support of freeing Zamazenta-Hero than I am freeing Zamazenta-Crowned. Needless to say, I'd probably put both at a 1 right now, not only because I don't think an unban is necessary, but I also think that both would absolutely shred offense if they were placed into the current metagame. Zamazenta-Crowned can very easily muscle through things that would be considered "resists" due to its titanic bulk, making it shrug off even strong Earthquakes from the likes of Landorus-Therian. Just take a look at this:
Offensive 1v1s:

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 144-170 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 159-187 (41.6 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Under the assumption Zamazenta-C Howled on the switchin)
252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 188-224 (57.8 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cinderace: 271-321 (90 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Wallbreaking:

+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (after Stealth Rock, Toxapex loses given Wild Charge is used again)
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 218-258 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 195-229 (50.9 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Wild Charge does the same damage)
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 122-144 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Defensive:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Psychic Terrain: 208-246 (64 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 138-164 (42.4 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 156-185 (48 - 56.9%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 168-198 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 94-110 (28.9 - 33.8%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO

The amount of defensive and offensive calcs that Zamazenta-Crowned has versus the metagame is pretty evident to me - most of its "counters" are based on RNG specific moves or abilities, and the few counters that aren't are very difficult to keep alive for a long time. This mon absolutely destroys offense and forces balance teams to run specific checks, which to me indicates a clearly bannable Pokemon. This mon is extremely unlikely to turn out healthy if it does get suspected.
:darmanitan-galar: 1 - Also broken. Scarf set has practically 1 good answer in Slowbro, and CB pretty much has 0 good answers altogether. Don't think I need much explanation for this one, the previous ban reasoning is already good enough.
:zygarde: 1 - Likewise to the Zamazenta-C, this mon is too bulky, and strong enough to take down most balance cores. SubToxic would absolutely ruin defensive cores right now and I am not prepared to see Zygarde cheese its way through teams again.

Some final notes:

:rillaboom: - I believe Rillaboom has some pretty solid arguments for being called uncompetitive in the current metagame. Glide is a monstrous move under terrain that makes revenge killing Rillaboom extremely difficult to the point where even some offensive resists do not check LO Rillaboom without a some bulk investment. CB also mashes through most Grass resists not named Heatran, Corviknight or Ferrothorn, two of three lose to a common moveslot option on Rillaboom's moveset. Rillaboom sets have also seen some hybrid Knock + U-turn + SD sets that are very difficult to get momentum from. However, its check list is fairly large and there are enough scouts like Rocky Helmet Toxapex to make Rillaboom a rather docile threat in comparison to the main brokens.

:garchomp: - I do believe Garchomp also has some arguments for a suspect test, but some reasons also point to a potential Sand Veil test in order to keep Garchomp legal in the current metagame. Whilst I believe LO Scale Shot + SD sets to currently be the most devastating, having very few good checks (Slowbro, Landorus-Therian and Rillaboom are the three that come to mind), it is at least dealable with and the constant LO recoil from its moves makes Garchomp a considerably easier Pokemon to check than might be expected. However, it doesn't make it uncompetitive, and the Substitute + SD BrightVeil set brings this to mind. These sets very easily cheese their counters (given that the chance to hit it 5 times under Sand is only 19.3%) and sweep without any player input to stop said sweep. Versus Slowbro it can very easily dodge an Ice Beam and force a 2HKO after a Swords Dance, can dodge a Rillaboom's Grassy Glide if Scale Shot has been used (and can even keep its Sub up versus it!) and can make Landorus-Therian miss U-turns, making it considerably harder to pivot around. Likewise, I also believe this to be a similar case to Rillaboom where its broken aspects may not be prevalent yet due to Cinderace and Magearna overshadowing them, and the scouts to these sets + revenge killers generally make Garchomp less of a threat than the top 3.
 
Transitivity of non-Pokémon bans wasn't a thing in gen 7 so yes it would be theoretically possible to ban teleport and HDB from OU only but by some posts in this thread transitivity of all bans was reinstated for this gen or at least an attempt is being made. Complaints about HDB and teleport feels very similar to complaints about scald and stealth rock when they were introduced, all of them made big changes in how the game is played but this don't make them broken or uncompetitive.
 
Some final notes:

:rillaboom: - I believe Rillaboom has some pretty solid arguments for being called uncompetitive in the current metagame. Glide is a monstrous move under terrain that makes revenge killing Rillaboom extremely difficult to the point where even some offensive resists do not check LO Rillaboom without a some bulk investment. CB also mashes through most Grass resists not named Heatran, Corviknight or Ferrothorn, two of three lose to a common moveslot option on Rillaboom's moveset. Rillaboom sets have also seen some hybrid Knock + U-turn + SD sets that are very difficult to get momentum from. However, its check list is fairly large and there are enough scouts like Rocky Helmet Toxapex to make Rillaboom a rather docile threat in comparison to the main brokens.

:garchomp: - I do believe Garchomp also has some arguments for a suspect test, but some reasons also point to a potential Sand Veil test in order to keep Garchomp legal in the current metagame. Whilst I believe LO Scale Shot + SD sets to currently be the most devastating, having very few good checks (Slowbro, Landorus-Therian and Rillaboom are the three that come to mind), it is at least dealable with and the constant LO recoil from its moves makes Garchomp a considerably easier Pokemon to check than might be expected. However, it doesn't make it uncompetitive, and the Substitute + SD BrightVeil set brings this to mind. These sets very easily cheese their counters (given that the chance to hit it 5 times under Sand is only 19.3%) and sweep without any player input to stop said sweep. Versus Slowbro it can very easily dodge an Ice Beam and force a 2HKO after a Swords Dance, can dodge a Rillaboom's Grassy Glide if Scale Shot has been used (and can even keep its Sub up versus it!) and can make Landorus-Therian miss U-turns, making it considerably harder to pivot around. Likewise, I also believe this to be a similar case to Rillaboom where its broken aspects may not be prevalent yet due to Cinderace and Magearna overshadowing them, and the scouts to these sets + revenge killers generally make Garchomp less of a threat than the top 3.
Good post but I have some counter arguments in regards to Rilla and Chomp.

1EB886A1-020C-4AF1-85BB-185E21436F94.png

Rillaboom is great but it’s nowhere near banworthy like Ace or Mag. Despite how bonkers Grassy Glide is it is still a Grass move which is resisted by most of the metagame. Stuff like Ace couldn’t take a Banded or +2 Grassy Glide, but something like Hydrei, Kyurem, Scarf Mag or Zapdos can check it. I think the point of Rilla being difficult to safely switch into is valid, but Rilla also sometimes has difficulty switching in itself. Some of the mons it is meant to exploit like Lando, Chomp, or Slowbro can cripple it with status, U-Turn, or get momentum off of it. With Voltturn teams becoming more popular, this has become more apparent. We do have legit counters to Rilla like Corv, Skarm, Tang, and Mag if it isn’t carrying High Horsepower. In the last few weeks of SPL, Rilla hasn’t shown suspect worthy results like Ace, Mag, and the recently banned Spectrier have. Rilla currently has a 35.71% winrate from the 14 times it was used all throughout SPL. It mostly has to do with certain metagame trends that hinder Rilla than favoring it. Things like Torn, Magearna, Zapdos and Hydreigon are trending. Some players have even used Kart over Rilla due to it’s higher longevity vs Balance thanks to Synthesis and more damage output for the cost of less momentum and a worse mu vs HO which hasn’t been common in SPL as of now. Rilla is absolutely a strong pick due to its ability to force progress and rkill key threats, but banworthy is overestimating it.

E6874CC5-FD1F-467C-810C-DA27D8488E7E.png

It has less to do with Chomp being suspect worthy and more to do with Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, and Bright Powder being uncompetitive by definition. These two abilities and one item technically go against the evasion clause. Sand may last for only 5-8 turns, but it’s more than enough for something like Chomp or even something as bad as Sandacobra for example. You can have the advantage, but you lose can some random low ladder player decided to run double dance Lando with Bright Powder and win cause of RNG. Sand Veil and Bright Powder aren’t commonly used due to the lack of consistency, but it makes more sense to quick ban any move, ability, or item that raises your evasion than to suspect test Chomp.
 
Pokemon like Flamethrower CM Clefable, Keldeo and Blaziken have generally fallen out of favour for Pokemon that can at least make progress vs Toxapex and I do feel like its effect on the metagame is unhealthy to a degree.
I agree with much of your points but there are some problems here. Blaziken commonly (ran) earthquake, which is an OHKO on partially specially defensive pex.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Toxapex: 307-361 (100.9 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cm Flame Clefable is also hard stopped by Heatran, which imo is a much bigger reason for why it isn't as viable. The Bulky Balance and Stall teams it likes to fit on don't want to give Heatran free switch-ins, especially if it's a toxic variant.
The Keldeo point is valid, but it's worth noting that Toxapex isn't the only thing stopping Keldeo's viability, or we'd see a lot more Keldeo and trap pex.

The main point here is that Toxapex isn't singlehandedly invalidating these pokemon, it's often a combination of factors of which Toxapex is the most pertinent.
 
Magearna gotta go. That shit is a whole menace. Maybe it’d be okay if it just ran Specs, Scarf, and AV, but the 750,000 variations of setup Mag are too much, especially on screens HO. Its movepool is absolutely ridiculous. It has a way to beat any potential check in the game, depending on which attacks it runs. It’s just too good.

On the other hand, I really don’t think Cinderace is broken. It’s a fantastic mon, clearly a meta-defining threat, but it’s checked by a lot of mons that are already great in OU. Garchomp, Landorus, Slowbro and Toxapex are all currently A+ rank on the VR, each of them having amazing utility outside of beating Cinderace. (EDIT: Slowbro is actually A rank, but will likely move up in the next VR update.) Others such as Dragapult, Hippo and Mandibuzz can also come in and force it out.

While it’s true that, like Magearna, Cinderace can tailor its set to beat certain answers, the difference is that you don’t just lose on the spot by guessing the wrong set. A cool tech that’s picked up in popularity is Electro Ball Cinderace, to deal with its water type answers. But while it hits hard, even Life Orb Ace under Electric Terrain fails to ohko PhysDef Toxapex from full, allowing the Pex to just switch out and heal up. Whereas if you go out to your Heatran on setup Mag and get Focus Blasted, the game is likely over from that point.

In theory, sure, Cinderace can just come in and out a million times over the course of a game and “beat everything.” But in practice, it will eventually get knocked, worn down with Rocky Helmet, or beaten by faster threats.

Having played a ton of games on the ladder since Crown Tundra dropped, I don’t believe that Ace is broken and I’m of the opinion that it can be dealt with by mons that are already going to be on a vast majority of teams.
 
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You know, I've watched this entire forum complain about Cinderace for the last 4 weeks and honestly, I think people would complain more if it didn't exist.

There are so many stupid fat, brainless regen pivot perma teleport cores running around and I cant help but feel like Cinderace is the offensive analog of Toxapex. A literal necessary evil against slogs of fatmons that slow the game down and turn matches into tepid switch-fests. I fucking love Cinderace in the tier because it punishes completely risk-averse playing and introduces risk reward back into what it otherwise a completely boring game. Its really not that bad IMO.
 
You know, I've watched this entire forum complain about Cinderace for the last 4 weeks and honestly, I think people would complain more if it didn't exist.

There are so many stupid fat, brainless regen pivot perma teleport cores running around and I cant help but feel like Cinderace is the offensive analog of Toxapex. A literal necessary evil against slogs of fatmons that slow the game down and turn matches into tepid switch-fests. I fucking love Cinderace in the tier because it punishes completely risk-averse playing and introduces risk reward back into what it otherwise a completely boring game. Its really not that bad IMO.
"Risk Averse Playing"
Cinderace spamming U-turn:
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There are so many stupid fat, brainless regen pivot perma teleport cores running around and I cant help but feel like Cinderace is the offensive analog of Toxapex. A literal necessary evil against slogs of fatmons that slow the game down and turn matches into tepid switch-fests. I fucking love Cinderace in the tier because it punishes completely risk-averse playing and introduces risk reward back into what it otherwise a completely boring game. Its really not that bad IMO.


Cinderace is actually part of the list of mons that "slow the game down and turn matches into tepid switch-fests"
What is a Good Teamate for Cinderace?
Tapu Koko, Landorus-Therian, Slowbro, and other pivots work well.
The slow defensive pivots need some way of reliably chipping down the opponents because teleport and uninvested U-Turns and Volt Switches won't do much. That's where offensive pivots like Cinderace comes in. You're just countering the slow boring switch-fest with a more offensive version of it. The gen 8 meta is all about momentum because it is a very safe playstyle and whoever has the momentum can usually maintain it thanks to switch moves being so good right now.
 

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