Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

It is a fundamental principle of Smogon tiering that broken does not check broken. We don't "need them to check things in the tier", if it's broken it gets banned. If other things then become broken, we ban them too.
 
While Heatran isn't the most threatening poke to offense, how are you even supposed to reliably switch into it with balance? I've played games where heatran 1v1s my slowbro and blissey in the same game. Like, if those two pokes can't even trade with heatran, what am am I to do, just cry about it?

Same with Magearna but that's pretty obviously broken, I don't think that's a hot take.
 
While Heatran isn't the most threatening poke to offense, how are you even supposed to reliably switch into it with balance? I've played games where heatran 1v1s my slowbro and blissey in the same game. Like, if those two pokes can't even trade with heatran, what am am I to do, just cry about it?

Same with Magearna but that's pretty obviously broken, I don't think that's a hot take.
Rest TankChomp/Pert is a good way to "counter" it. Another is SpDef heal bell Dragonite is good.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
I'm gonna put in my two cents about Heatran and stealth rock

I don't think it is remotely broken in any way. Yes it is a trapper but Heatran cannot be that reliable of a trapper, unlike something like shadow tag or arena trap. That's not even mentioning how magma storm isn't the most reliable move. Regardless of what anyone says, I will never be convinced of something being broken if it has to rely on rng to do its job. If something is broken, then it must be able to do its job consistently like how any team without Buzzwole was a near auto lose to Urshifu

The things I mentioned like Garchomp or Landorus Therian are only checks not counters. That's why mons like Heatran and the mentioned two are great mons. Regardless of what happens, they have next to no hard counters. Corviknight switches in against Garchomp? Oops, mixed fire blast, now it died. That's what makes these mons great, in nearly every situation, they have a way to cripple their own answers or in some cases, beat them themselves. Think about it, does Landorus Therian like eating repeated hits from Garchomp? Does Zapdos or Moltres like losing their boots to Rillaboom? Does Slowbro like tanking repeated hits from the offensive ground types? Yes, the former pokemon does almost always beat the latter in a one on one fight, they still don't like the prospect of just mindlessly switching in

Heatran is just like them. It cannot beat Chomp or Lando but it can always leave a mark with toxic or just magma storm chip. But in the end, isn't that the point of the game? To try and outthink your opponent and get yourself in a good position? Competitive pokemon to me has always just been a chess on steroids except that there is a very large trace of randomness in it

Yes, Heatran isn't the easiest thing to switch into, but then again, which mons is?

Now about stealth rock, I don't think this should even be considered to be banned, otherwise games would just take over five hours with near endless switching and it would only make Cinderace and Volcarona even more deadly than they already are. You don't think that the minor chip from stealth rocks count? Go back and play gen seven and say that after Zard Y gets unpunished switch ins and starts blasting stuff with sun boosted stab flamethrowers

If anything, I think boots should be banned, or at the very least the tier be tried without them. If it wasn't for my Heatran losing to a stupid hp ground Volcarona, gen seven would probably be my favorite gen

In gens four and five, maybe stealth rock was banworthy as the only option to remove it was rapid spin, which can be blocked by ghost types. But after gen six, stealth rocks became manageable because you now have defog to clear them. Despite defog having less pp than rocks, it didn't really matter as you're not gonna be just defogging or setting rocks up for thirty turns straight and you might as well use those turns to try and make some progress

Gen seven was the same story, except defog is now everywhere, even on something that doesn't make sense like how can Serperior blow away rocks in the first place but whatever. Gen seven basically made sure that stealth rock wasn't that oppressive anymore. Yes, Volcarona and Zard Y still loses half their life switching in but at the same team, you had a lot of options to ensure that upon switching in, those two, along with many other rock tweak mons don't lose a quarter of their life

This is why I wanna get rid of boots. Like how Zard Y and Volcarona were powerful mons last gen, they had a massive risk in using them but at the same time, the methods to bypass that risk, which is mainly defog but also spin, were very common and the many of the mons that had one of those moves weren't exactly crippling your own team. There was almost always a good defogger for any type of team

These days Volcarona is almost never gonna get punished even on a safe switch in due to the boots and can rain down fiery dances everywhere. It's also the reason why I believe Cinderace is broken. I did say that it was nothing more than an irritation for me but it does not change the fact that the near unpunished switch ins it has forced mons like Garchomp to go tank or Slowbro and Pex to wear helmets just to chip it down. This would also mean that to use someone like Cinderace or Volcarona, or any rock weak mon, you actually have to put in effort to switch them in

All in all, I think boots removed one very crucial question that every player asks themselves on every turn. "Am I in trouble if I switch this against that?"
 
I didn't think my Heatran post would get this much traction, I just wanted to point out that we should have a good discussion on Heatran in the future (also the reason why I didn't go too in depth).

Although writing 5 essays on why I think Heatran should be banned sounds better than sex, I really don't wanna clutter this thread with Heatran discussion. I think Goodbye & Thanks and OvertoneSeries have made good points on why Heatran could be potentially problematic so I'm not really going to expand on their points. All I wanted to note is that we should have an important discussion about Heatran, but probably in the future (once we deal with Cinderace and Magearna specifically).

For the moment, just keep Heatran in your thoughts, so here's a final note to take on: the argument of Heatran being completely reliant on RNG is completely invalid. I'm not comparing Heatran to Stag anyways. This might be a weird analogy for some but anyone who played other games like Overwatch or LoL will probably understand me when I say that the reason why Heatran might be broken is not because of Heatran himself, but the idea of Heatran. This is very similar to the broken Road Hog in the early stages of OW (pre-patch) or Evelynn's invisibility in LoL, you will always have people tell you they're not really that hard to outplay (JUST DODGE THE HOOK 4HEAD) or to track their cooldown, but in reality most pro/gm players will tell you that they are broken because of their potential. In those games the limiting factor is not the PP of the move or the variable sets a Pokemon can run, but the cooldown of the ability. So when the old Road Hog for example has his hook ready, all of a sudden the enemy team becomes really scary to approach because if someone is hooked they instantly die and put the team in a 5v6 disadvantage. However, the moment Road Hog uses his hook, and he whiffs, you suddenly have a 6-8 second window to go offensive. Similarly, just the idea of Heatran alone puts incredible pressure on both your team and the teambuilder. You HAVE to be prepared for the Magma storm + Taunt most Heatrans are running, along the possibilities of Toxic, EPower, Protect, or any combination of the two. Nobody is switching to his corviknight hoping Magma Storm misses, rather you switch in your Garchomp which can take 1 hit per game and hope you can get an SD / Rocks off of it. The Magma storm might miss and make you relieved (i.e the road hog missing) which gives you an advantage in that you can still set up rocks/SD AND also come in later for that free 1 hit per game, but you still did the right play but letting your Garchomp, one of the best offensive mons right now, possibly take chip. If the opponent hits his Magma Storm, switches out, and safely bring in their Heatran later in the game, now all of a sudden you don't have any reliable switch ins, you just had to hope that your team was strong enough to break the enemy team with the Garchomp Gambit ™

My current favorite is Finchinator's Lava Plume + Magma Storm set which punishes so many people who have gotten used to switching in their Garchomp, Urshifu-RS, Dragonite, or even Lando-T as their 1 time only get out of jail free card and hope they can use that moment to dent the team before Heatran can come back in again. Instead, it punishes them with a burn, and on top of it the opponent will think Tox/Slowbro are free switchins on Lava Plume Heatran only to get trapped by Magma.

As further proof to my argument, look at the sample teams or most high ladder non-HO/rain teams that don't have Fini + Kyurem/Suicune. They are teching Shed Shell Toxapex, EQ glowking, or the defensive dragon sets that are on the come up like Garchomp/Hydreigon/Dragonite/Salamence (All these sets are legit sets that do multiple things aside from checking Heatran, but there's no doubt they are gimmicks that provide important utility in checking Heatran on top of what they already want to check, otherwise other pokemon would be used over them), all of which are small but persistent proof that Heatran just might be problematic.


I know that I said I'm not gonna expand more on Heatran, but the temptation was too much. Just take this as food for thought for whenever we have this Heatran discussion again after Mag/Ace suspect. Meanwhile, I'm going to dedicate the next two months of my free time trying to get proof that Heatran is indeed problematic. Have a good day :blobthumbsup:
 

Abhi

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Hello there,
This post is brought to you by oliVes, DKM, Katy , and I.

We've been hearing about Heatran being a menace in the current metagame, but is that the case?
We're here to explain exactly why thats not the case.

First off lets start off with the accusation that Heatran the lovable cockroach that it is, is uncheckable.
This statement is just not true as it is able to be checked by a lot of pokemon.
Bulky-water types such as:
  • :slowking: Slowking
  • :tapu-fini: Tapu Fini
  • :swampert: Swampert
Dragon types such as:
  • :garchomp: Garchomp
  • :Dragonite: Dragonite
  • :latias: Latias
  • :Latios: Latios
  • :Hydreigon: Hydreigon
Good Special walls such as:
  • :tyranitar: Tyranitar
  • :slowking-galar: Slowking-Galar
Now moving onto the plethora of Heatran checks out there such as:
  • :Landorus-Therian: Landorus-Therian
  • :Excadrill: Excadrill
  • :Nidoking: Nidoking
  • :garchomp: Garchomp
  • :urshifu: Urshifu-RS
  • :zapdos-galar: Zapdos-Galar
  • :barraskewda: Barraskewda

The next reason we've heard for a Heatran ban is because it can get around its checks and counters easily. This, although slightly true, is not a great reason for a ban as some of its counters are not bothered by the status it can inflict and some examples of this are Tapu Fini, Rest Garchomp, and Slowking-Galar. Not only that but Heatran often chooses to run Stealth Rocks over Toxic and Magma Storm over Lava Plume. Stealth Rocks is not a problem at all as explained by Gomi above.

While Magma Storm trapping is very potent it isn't super reliable due to the poor accuracy and low PP of the move.

Another flaw of Heatran is that it gets worn down easily, with Leftovers being its only form of recovery in a metagame where Knock Off is very relevant. In addition to this, a lot of Pokemon Heatran might be used to check like Magearna, Tornadus-T, and Tapu Lele can run Fighting-type coverage moves which only makes it harder for Heatran to stay healthy.

Conclusion: Heatran isn't broken nerds
1613833770400.png
 
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:zamazenta-crowned:
On the subject of this abomination against nature, I just want to mention something.
Kartana has 181 base ATK. It has Sacred Sword, which ignores Dauntless Shield and is super-effective.
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 274-324 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 342-404 (132 - 155.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (and it is faster)
Zama-C counters Choice Band Kartana. Without any defensive investment. So uh, why should this even be considered for OU again??? When it switches in for free on every Knock Off, every Toxic, every Stealth Rock and proceeds to beat anything bar Haze Pex 1v1. It's like Melmetal pre-DLC, where it can just switch in on any physical attacker it feels like and trade health with mons of its choice. Except it outruns most the game, which makes it painful to revenge kill, even once weakened.
Oh and lol Zygarde. Thousand Arrows go brrr. Darm. U-turn go brrr. These two are even worse...

Teleport is what competitive players put 101 clauses on Baton Pass to try and have in oldgens. It's totally fine.
Banning HDB is every bit as dumb as banning Leftovers IMO. Yes, it's a good item, but it has clear and massive drawbacks. Such as not having Leftovers.
Stealth Rock is centralizing yes. Overcentralising? Probably. But:
1. SR has never been weaker in the history of mons.
2. Overcentralising is not always a bad thing.
Stealth Rock adds an extra layer of strategy to Pokemon that the game is far poorer without. Being able to punish things like Regenerator spam, VoltTurn spam, Teleport spam, all massive. Being able to chip defensive mons as they switch in so the KO range is reduced. Limiting the lifespan of powerful offensive mons.
Yes, this is why people are complaining about HDB, but let's be real Leftovers achieves something very similar while being better against Sandstorm chip, status, residual trapping and in prolonged 1v1s. They both have pros and cons, but it's pretty clear that HDB is not so far better than Leftovers that it is somehow banworthy. Unless you're that desperate to preserve Cinderace so you can lose to it on HO because it had the exact set to beat your remaining checks.

Interesting discussion on Heatran. I'm in the camp that it's just doing the same things it always has, but I'm curious to hear what others think.
 
:zamazenta-crowned:
On the subject of this abomination against nature, I just want to mention something.
Kartana has 181 base ATK. It has Sacred Sword, which ignores Dauntless Shield and is super-effective.
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 274-324 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 342-404 (132 - 155.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (and it is faster)
Zama-C counters Choice Band Kartana. Without any defensive investment. So uh, why should this even be considered for OU again??? When it switches in for free on every Knock Off, every Toxic, every Stealth Rock and proceeds to beat anything bar Haze Pex 1v1. It's like Melmetal pre-DLC, where it can just switch in on any physical attacker it feels like and trade health with mons of its choice. Except it outruns most the game, which makes it painful to revenge kill, even once weakened.
Oh and lol Zygarde. Thousand Arrows go brrr. Darm. U-turn go brrr. These two are even worse...

Teleport is what competitive players put 101 clauses on Baton Pass to try and have in oldgens. It's totally fine.
Banning HDB is every bit as dumb as banning Leftovers IMO. Yes, it's a good item, but it has clear and massive drawbacks. Such as not having Leftovers.
Stealth Rock is centralizing yes. Overcentralising? Probably. But:
1. SR has never been weaker in the history of mons.
2. Overcentralising is not always a bad thing.
Stealth Rock adds an extra layer of strategy to Pokemon that the game is far poorer without. Being able to punish things like Regenerator spam, VoltTurn spam, Teleport spam, all massive. Being able to chip defensive mons as they switch in so the KO range is reduced. Limiting the lifespan of powerful offensive mons.
Yes, this is why people are complaining about HDB, but let's be real Leftovers achieves something very similar while being better against Sandstorm chip, status, residual trapping and in prolonged 1v1s. They both have pros and cons, but it's pretty clear that HDB is not so far better than Leftovers that it is somehow banworthy. Unless you're that desperate to preserve Cinderace so you can lose to it on HO because it had the exact set to beat your remaining checks.

Interesting discussion on Heatran. I'm in the camp that it's just doing the same things it always has, but I'm curious to hear what others think.
Saying that Zamazenta """Counters""" Choice Band kartana by barely surviving a hit after rocks that is basically irrecoverable damage is laughable,what happens if Kart switches out or if Zama gets chipped in the slightest?
 
This discussion is
Saying that Zamazenta """Counters""" Choice Band kartana by barely surviving a hit after rocks that is basically irrecoverable damage is laughable,what happens if Kart switches out or if Zama gets chipped in the slightest?

That's not what OP is saying. They are saying that such a ridiculous attack from such a Mon isn't a clean OHKO, so the rest of the tier doesn't have much options to handle it, and people have shown this in far more elaborate manners

Personally, the only reason I want it to drop is to terrorise low ladder with it, nothing else.

---------------------------------------------------
I don't want to double post, so here goes nothing


Finchinator

What's your opinion on suspecting Heatran?

Kindly the confused OU players

My take? I think it's definitely worth taking a look once Mag and Ace are tested, due to its massive impact on the tier, but we do lose the best stall killer in CT OU.

My solution for that? Ban Pex
 
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Finchinator

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Going to split this up into two as these are very separate issues and separate parts of discussion that I am being tagged about by different people.

Finchinator

What's your opinion on suspecting Heatran?

Kindly the confused OU players

My take? I think it's definitely worth taking a look once Mag and Ace are tested, due to its massive impact on the tier, but we do lose the best stall killer in CT OU.

My solution for that? Ban Pex
I want to make it abundantly clear that I am just one person on council and I am not the current leader of the council either, so this is just my personal opinion and it does not hold as much weight as some of you tend to assume.

With that said, Heatran is an underrated offensive presence due to the Magma Storm trapping variants. These sets make an already phenomenal Pokemon quite challenging to consistently keep in check. There were times last generation where I found Heatran to be restricting or even suspect worthy due to this. However, this generation the dynamic is slightly different, especially when you look at this in the context of the current tiering position we are in.

For starters, we have a metagame with various issues that strike me as much more pressing, leading me to want to see much more of Heatran and how the tier responds to it in the coming months. I do not believe a Heatran suspect would make any sense right now, especially with the recent survey -- which I have spent the last few hours organizing the results of -- giving some pretty telling results about other potential suspects or bans. This is not me stating my opposition to a Heatran suspect as a whole, but I do oppose it right now and I do believe that it is not realistic in the present or immediate future due to more pressing issues being present.

As for the prospect of it being suspected in the more distant future, I do not think it is there right now due to the metagame's ability to respond to it. People noticed that Rocky Helmet Garchomp got worn out, so they began to run Rest last. People noticed that Slowbro got worn down quite quickly, so they began running Slowking more. People found their Nasty Plot Hydreigons still running low on longevity despite the Spectrier ban, so they shifted to running Roost despite Spectrier's ban, which helped a lot with Heatran. All of these things have shown both on the higher ladder an throughout SPL over the last few weeks. Heatran absolutely was a problem to common structures when it began finding more openings and people used it as more than just a specially bulky Stealth Rock setter, but there are clear checks and counters present. Another healthy part of this dynamic is that the metagame is responding to it as opposed to just rolling over and losing to it, which is arguably the case for things like Magearna -- which I am sure all of us have lost to on numerous occasions by now.

The pool of checks and counters can be limited -- I am not refuting this. It does not necessarily warp how we build our teams, but it does require a certain level of attention to detail and it can make specific cores impossible to use without incurring a degree of uncomfortable risk about an accurate Magma Storm Heatran. I do acknowledge this and a lot of the sound logic applied by above posters, but I do not currently find Heatran suspect worthy. If the metagame does not react much more to it or it becomes even stronger in coming weeks, I would be happy including it in the next survey slightly down the line, but we are not there yet and we are not going to make that decision at this point in time.
 

Finchinator

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And just to add on to Obsidian297 's question, what do you think about the impact of boots this gen Finchinator ?
Again: I want to make it abundantly clear that I am just one person on council and I am not the current leader of the council either, so this is just my personal opinion and it does not hold as much weight as some of you tend to assume.

In July, a thread in Policy Review was posted about Heavy Duty Boots by the OU Council. I weighed in with my thoughts here:
Heavy Duty Boots are very good, but not broken in my eyes.

The item has quickly become one of the best in the game and for good reason: hazards have always been at the center of our metagames. I understand why it rising to popularity and negating the effect of a fundamental part of our game can be cause for concern, but for every single thing Heavy Duty Boots limits, it also helps open up something entirely new and healthy I feel. On top of this, running Heavy Duty Boots is not a foolproof response to hazards as hazard removal is virtually mandatory on most OU archetypes still and, as the OP mentions, Knock Off is as common as ever.

I understand a lot of people becoming concerned about Heavy Duty Boots ever since Pokemon like Libero Cinderace, which most people believe is broken, or Volcarona, a historically controversial Pokemon, have become prominent and almost always run Heavy Duty Boots. I would even go as far as saying that it is probably that Heavy Duty Boots broke Cinderace. This is a great point for those who believe the item removes a form of counterplay (hazard damage) that is fundamental to our play, but I also want people to consider the positives it brings and the consequences of removing the item universally instead of handling individual Pokemon that may be worthy of tiering attention.

A few examples of how Heavy Duty Boots open up teambuilding in OU are the following:
  • Teams can run Heavy Duty Boots on their Slowbro, Dragapult, Zeraora, etc. if they lack a Poison type so they are less susceptible to Toxapex's Toxic Spikes. Toxapex is a great Pokemon right now and accounting for the status and item displacement impacts it has repeatedly with offensive teams is already challenging enough (to the point that we included it in the aforementioned survey), so not forcing teambuilding to be warped around it in yet another fashion is great and opens things up a bit.
  • Heavy Duty Boots makes a lot of Pokemon that previously would never have touched OU viable, expanding the metagame and giving us more options both offensively and defensively. People have always complained about how stagnant and standardized OU is, so Pokemon like Rotom-Heat, Togekiss, Incineroar, Mantine, and Talonflame having viability should be welcomed with open arms.
  • Heavy Duty Boots leads to a lot of offensive presences being accessible and gets in the way of one of stall's main ways of making progress, through forcing switches with hazards up. I personally do not subscribe a ton to this argument as it goes both ways and I also find stall to be pretty poor in this metagame due to the natural longevity of balance teams invalidating it (see: Magic Guard, Regenerator, etc.), but a lot of people have complained about this in recent generations, so at least there's less room for problems here.
I think that OU can use some work in terms of potential suspects or bans in the future and the council is actively discussing this. The survey we sent out was a great start and I am looking forward to our process continuing into the future; we have made great strides this generation towards being transparent and communicating with the public. A handful of people who responded indicated that they feel Heavy Duty Boots is problematic and I believe ignoring those voices is a poor choice, so this thread felt appropriate.

I hope that people share their opinions throughout this thread, but I do think that we need to consider the potential consequences of a ban of Heavy Duty Boots. It may preserve 1-2 Pokemon in OU (probably just Cinderace), but it will be a departure from our normal approach that requires extreme circumstances to justify and it will also shaft every single lower tier, who (as far as I know) have all not had issues with Heavy Duty Boots (you can argue individual cases like NU Scyther, but I think that a lone case is far from sufficient justification).

Generally, I prefer focusing on suspecting and banning individual Pokemon before focusing on banning non-Pokemon elements (i.e: moves, items, abilities, etc.) unless the element causes various things to be banworthy directly. It is a lot harder to analyze that with Heavy Duty Boots as while it may only bolster Cinderace to "broken status", it has a great impact on how the tier is played, how counterplay is approached in teambuilding, and how games transpire regardless of making individual Pokemon banworthy or not. I understand that because of this we have a very complicated discussion at hand.

The thing is that no matter how we look at this impact that it has, I, much like the OP, do not find it to be broken or uncompetitive. It is a departure from our status quo for sure, but that alone is not enough to raise our pitchforks and demand removal. Entry hazards remain a prominent part of gameplay despite this and their presence in games is nowhere near as fundamental or assumed as a basic mechanic such as switching, which I feel invalidates arguments made about the comparison to Arena Trap/Shadow Tag in the post above.

I think that we should monitor the impact Heavy Duty Boots has on our metagames and a thread like that is perfect for this. However, as it currently stands, a ban seems like a poor idea and we should focus on identifying problematic Pokemon -- be it Pokemon that use Heavy Duty Boots or not -- and working on handling them with our tiering process in the appropriate fashion.
While some of the specific examples are slightly dated, the underlying logic stays the same. I do not think that Heavy Duty Boots currently warrant suspect attention, but we should monitor the item and the metagame closely to see how various users of it are able to exploit the item being present in the metagame. If we notice trends beyond Cinderace that prove problematic, it should warrant a more serious look from a tiering point of view. Right now, I do not believe we are at a point where we should be looking at the item, but this can change.
 
I have seen a bunch of calls for Pokemon such as Heatran and Rillaboom to be banned. I feel, although a bit of a controversial opinion, that the OU tier has quickly become a witch hunt.

There were absolutely broken Pokemon who needed to be banned, and some that are still too powerful. No matter how you slice it or dice it, Pokemon like Kyurem-B, Zygarde, Pheramosa, and Spectrier were all broken in some way or another. There are big cases on pokemon currently like the Fire and Steel Bunnies, which I personally think should go. But I think there should be a period where we need to chill. It has become a question of finding the next "broken" mon after we ban another. This worked for a while, cause there were many universally accepted broken mons in the tier, and there are still arguably two more. But when we overreach and begin discussing Pokemon such as Rillaboom and Heatran for a ban, there is a real problem of this witch hunt, always trying to find the next Pokemon to suspect. I am just saying that we should chill. Suspect the bunnies, and let the meta settle before doing anything drastic. Leaping to the next "broken" Pokemon is just gonna keep suspecting and throwing the meta awry, instead of letting it settle.

Of course, I have my biases. I personally do not agree with a Heatran and Rillaboom suspect. And that is part of the reason why I want them to have a decent chance, instead of another immediate stop on the ban train.
 

Roy

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No way Heatran should be banned. Keep in mind its heavy usage is related to Mag's busted-ness in a big way. Once its banned, guaranteed you won't see as much Heatran anymore.

As far as Rilaboom goes - it's great but certainly not broken. Even predicting a Ferro switch with superpower and 2hko-ing makes it take plenty of barbs/rocky helmet damage and leaves the opponent at a serious advantage to set something up on you or hit hard.

People need to understand that, just because one Pokemon can kill something with a great prediction (again Rilaboom picking the "correct" move) doesn't mean it is automatically broken. You know what Zygarde/Kyrurem-B/Phero/Spectrier/Mag have in common? They can set up on you with extremely low risk at virtually any point of the game and simply sweep. Rilaboom just isn't in that catagory.
 
With Magearna and Cinderace being quickbanned, what do you guys believe are the biggest winners and the biggest losers from these bans?
NOOO NOT CINDERACE SCVJBHJVGHFCY
screw mag hope it rots in ubers forever
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(had to combine my post before and after question cuz im not a filthy double poster)
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Volt-Turn cores are gonna take a massive hit since ace and mag were the main pokemon spamming their respective moves. Not going to die out, just a massive hit. tank chomp will see a little bit of decrease and rocky helmet doesn't have to be run on pex and lando-t anymore. Pex is gonna take a hit to considering it was the one thing that could check both of these semi-decently. Again though won't completely fall out cuz it's pex we're talking about.
 
Uh...So maybe we're getting that Zamazenta-Crowned suspect test way sooner than I thought lol. Anyways I don't have a whole list of losers and winners from this ban but I definitely do think Galarian Slowking is going to fall out of favor a little bit since it was one of the few things that could really check Magearna consistently. On the other hand, I think Glowking's Kantonian Cousin,Slowbro will get better with it no longer having to eat Stab U-Turns and Specs Volt Switches now
 

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