Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

This discussion is
Saying that Zamazenta """Counters""" Choice Band kartana by barely surviving a hit after rocks that is basically irrecoverable damage is laughable,what happens if Kart switches out or if Zama gets chipped in the slightest?

That's not what OP is saying. They are saying that such a ridiculous attack from such a Mon isn't a clean OHKO, so the rest of the tier doesn't have much options to handle it, and people have shown this in far more elaborate manners

Personally, the only reason I want it to drop is to terrorise low ladder with it, nothing else.

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I don't want to double post, so here goes nothing


Finchinator

What's your opinion on suspecting Heatran?

Kindly the confused OU players

My take? I think it's definitely worth taking a look once Mag and Ace are tested, due to its massive impact on the tier, but we do lose the best stall killer in CT OU.

My solution for that? Ban Pex
 
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Finchinator

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OU Leader
Going to split this up into two as these are very separate issues and separate parts of discussion that I am being tagged about by different people.

Finchinator

What's your opinion on suspecting Heatran?

Kindly the confused OU players

My take? I think it's definitely worth taking a look once Mag and Ace are tested, due to its massive impact on the tier, but we do lose the best stall killer in CT OU.

My solution for that? Ban Pex
I want to make it abundantly clear that I am just one person on council and I am not the current leader of the council either, so this is just my personal opinion and it does not hold as much weight as some of you tend to assume.

With that said, Heatran is an underrated offensive presence due to the Magma Storm trapping variants. These sets make an already phenomenal Pokemon quite challenging to consistently keep in check. There were times last generation where I found Heatran to be restricting or even suspect worthy due to this. However, this generation the dynamic is slightly different, especially when you look at this in the context of the current tiering position we are in.

For starters, we have a metagame with various issues that strike me as much more pressing, leading me to want to see much more of Heatran and how the tier responds to it in the coming months. I do not believe a Heatran suspect would make any sense right now, especially with the recent survey -- which I have spent the last few hours organizing the results of -- giving some pretty telling results about other potential suspects or bans. This is not me stating my opposition to a Heatran suspect as a whole, but I do oppose it right now and I do believe that it is not realistic in the present or immediate future due to more pressing issues being present.

As for the prospect of it being suspected in the more distant future, I do not think it is there right now due to the metagame's ability to respond to it. People noticed that Rocky Helmet Garchomp got worn out, so they began to run Rest last. People noticed that Slowbro got worn down quite quickly, so they began running Slowking more. People found their Nasty Plot Hydreigons still running low on longevity despite the Spectrier ban, so they shifted to running Roost despite Spectrier's ban, which helped a lot with Heatran. All of these things have shown both on the higher ladder an throughout SPL over the last few weeks. Heatran absolutely was a problem to common structures when it began finding more openings and people used it as more than just a specially bulky Stealth Rock setter, but there are clear checks and counters present. Another healthy part of this dynamic is that the metagame is responding to it as opposed to just rolling over and losing to it, which is arguably the case for things like Magearna -- which I am sure all of us have lost to on numerous occasions by now.

The pool of checks and counters can be limited -- I am not refuting this. It does not necessarily warp how we build our teams, but it does require a certain level of attention to detail and it can make specific cores impossible to use without incurring a degree of uncomfortable risk about an accurate Magma Storm Heatran. I do acknowledge this and a lot of the sound logic applied by above posters, but I do not currently find Heatran suspect worthy. If the metagame does not react much more to it or it becomes even stronger in coming weeks, I would be happy including it in the next survey slightly down the line, but we are not there yet and we are not going to make that decision at this point in time.
 

Finchinator

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And just to add on to Obsidian297 's question, what do you think about the impact of boots this gen Finchinator ?
Again: I want to make it abundantly clear that I am just one person on council and I am not the current leader of the council either, so this is just my personal opinion and it does not hold as much weight as some of you tend to assume.

In July, a thread in Policy Review was posted about Heavy Duty Boots by the OU Council. I weighed in with my thoughts here:
Heavy Duty Boots are very good, but not broken in my eyes.

The item has quickly become one of the best in the game and for good reason: hazards have always been at the center of our metagames. I understand why it rising to popularity and negating the effect of a fundamental part of our game can be cause for concern, but for every single thing Heavy Duty Boots limits, it also helps open up something entirely new and healthy I feel. On top of this, running Heavy Duty Boots is not a foolproof response to hazards as hazard removal is virtually mandatory on most OU archetypes still and, as the OP mentions, Knock Off is as common as ever.

I understand a lot of people becoming concerned about Heavy Duty Boots ever since Pokemon like Libero Cinderace, which most people believe is broken, or Volcarona, a historically controversial Pokemon, have become prominent and almost always run Heavy Duty Boots. I would even go as far as saying that it is probably that Heavy Duty Boots broke Cinderace. This is a great point for those who believe the item removes a form of counterplay (hazard damage) that is fundamental to our play, but I also want people to consider the positives it brings and the consequences of removing the item universally instead of handling individual Pokemon that may be worthy of tiering attention.

A few examples of how Heavy Duty Boots open up teambuilding in OU are the following:
  • Teams can run Heavy Duty Boots on their Slowbro, Dragapult, Zeraora, etc. if they lack a Poison type so they are less susceptible to Toxapex's Toxic Spikes. Toxapex is a great Pokemon right now and accounting for the status and item displacement impacts it has repeatedly with offensive teams is already challenging enough (to the point that we included it in the aforementioned survey), so not forcing teambuilding to be warped around it in yet another fashion is great and opens things up a bit.
  • Heavy Duty Boots makes a lot of Pokemon that previously would never have touched OU viable, expanding the metagame and giving us more options both offensively and defensively. People have always complained about how stagnant and standardized OU is, so Pokemon like Rotom-Heat, Togekiss, Incineroar, Mantine, and Talonflame having viability should be welcomed with open arms.
  • Heavy Duty Boots leads to a lot of offensive presences being accessible and gets in the way of one of stall's main ways of making progress, through forcing switches with hazards up. I personally do not subscribe a ton to this argument as it goes both ways and I also find stall to be pretty poor in this metagame due to the natural longevity of balance teams invalidating it (see: Magic Guard, Regenerator, etc.), but a lot of people have complained about this in recent generations, so at least there's less room for problems here.
I think that OU can use some work in terms of potential suspects or bans in the future and the council is actively discussing this. The survey we sent out was a great start and I am looking forward to our process continuing into the future; we have made great strides this generation towards being transparent and communicating with the public. A handful of people who responded indicated that they feel Heavy Duty Boots is problematic and I believe ignoring those voices is a poor choice, so this thread felt appropriate.

I hope that people share their opinions throughout this thread, but I do think that we need to consider the potential consequences of a ban of Heavy Duty Boots. It may preserve 1-2 Pokemon in OU (probably just Cinderace), but it will be a departure from our normal approach that requires extreme circumstances to justify and it will also shaft every single lower tier, who (as far as I know) have all not had issues with Heavy Duty Boots (you can argue individual cases like NU Scyther, but I think that a lone case is far from sufficient justification).

Generally, I prefer focusing on suspecting and banning individual Pokemon before focusing on banning non-Pokemon elements (i.e: moves, items, abilities, etc.) unless the element causes various things to be banworthy directly. It is a lot harder to analyze that with Heavy Duty Boots as while it may only bolster Cinderace to "broken status", it has a great impact on how the tier is played, how counterplay is approached in teambuilding, and how games transpire regardless of making individual Pokemon banworthy or not. I understand that because of this we have a very complicated discussion at hand.

The thing is that no matter how we look at this impact that it has, I, much like the OP, do not find it to be broken or uncompetitive. It is a departure from our status quo for sure, but that alone is not enough to raise our pitchforks and demand removal. Entry hazards remain a prominent part of gameplay despite this and their presence in games is nowhere near as fundamental or assumed as a basic mechanic such as switching, which I feel invalidates arguments made about the comparison to Arena Trap/Shadow Tag in the post above.

I think that we should monitor the impact Heavy Duty Boots has on our metagames and a thread like that is perfect for this. However, as it currently stands, a ban seems like a poor idea and we should focus on identifying problematic Pokemon -- be it Pokemon that use Heavy Duty Boots or not -- and working on handling them with our tiering process in the appropriate fashion.
While some of the specific examples are slightly dated, the underlying logic stays the same. I do not think that Heavy Duty Boots currently warrant suspect attention, but we should monitor the item and the metagame closely to see how various users of it are able to exploit the item being present in the metagame. If we notice trends beyond Cinderace that prove problematic, it should warrant a more serious look from a tiering point of view. Right now, I do not believe we are at a point where we should be looking at the item, but this can change.
 
I have seen a bunch of calls for Pokemon such as Heatran and Rillaboom to be banned. I feel, although a bit of a controversial opinion, that the OU tier has quickly become a witch hunt.

There were absolutely broken Pokemon who needed to be banned, and some that are still too powerful. No matter how you slice it or dice it, Pokemon like Kyurem-B, Zygarde, Pheramosa, and Spectrier were all broken in some way or another. There are big cases on pokemon currently like the Fire and Steel Bunnies, which I personally think should go. But I think there should be a period where we need to chill. It has become a question of finding the next "broken" mon after we ban another. This worked for a while, cause there were many universally accepted broken mons in the tier, and there are still arguably two more. But when we overreach and begin discussing Pokemon such as Rillaboom and Heatran for a ban, there is a real problem of this witch hunt, always trying to find the next Pokemon to suspect. I am just saying that we should chill. Suspect the bunnies, and let the meta settle before doing anything drastic. Leaping to the next "broken" Pokemon is just gonna keep suspecting and throwing the meta awry, instead of letting it settle.

Of course, I have my biases. I personally do not agree with a Heatran and Rillaboom suspect. And that is part of the reason why I want them to have a decent chance, instead of another immediate stop on the ban train.
 

Roy

streetpkmn
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No way Heatran should be banned. Keep in mind its heavy usage is related to Mag's busted-ness in a big way. Once its banned, guaranteed you won't see as much Heatran anymore.

As far as Rilaboom goes - it's great but certainly not broken. Even predicting a Ferro switch with superpower and 2hko-ing makes it take plenty of barbs/rocky helmet damage and leaves the opponent at a serious advantage to set something up on you or hit hard.

People need to understand that, just because one Pokemon can kill something with a great prediction (again Rilaboom picking the "correct" move) doesn't mean it is automatically broken. You know what Zygarde/Kyrurem-B/Phero/Spectrier/Mag have in common? They can set up on you with extremely low risk at virtually any point of the game and simply sweep. Rilaboom just isn't in that catagory.
 
With Magearna and Cinderace being quickbanned, what do you guys believe are the biggest winners and the biggest losers from these bans?
NOOO NOT CINDERACE SCVJBHJVGHFCY
screw mag hope it rots in ubers forever
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(had to combine my post before and after question cuz im not a filthy double poster)
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Volt-Turn cores are gonna take a massive hit since ace and mag were the main pokemon spamming their respective moves. Not going to die out, just a massive hit. tank chomp will see a little bit of decrease and rocky helmet doesn't have to be run on pex and lando-t anymore. Pex is gonna take a hit to considering it was the one thing that could check both of these semi-decently. Again though won't completely fall out cuz it's pex we're talking about.
 
Uh...So maybe we're getting that Zamazenta-Crowned suspect test way sooner than I thought lol. Anyways I don't have a whole list of losers and winners from this ban but I definitely do think Galarian Slowking is going to fall out of favor a little bit since it was one of the few things that could really check Magearna consistently. On the other hand, I think Glowking's Kantonian Cousin,Slowbro will get better with it no longer having to eat Stab U-Turns and Specs Volt Switches now
 
With Magearna and Cinderace being quickbanned, what do you guys believe are the biggest winners and the biggest losers from these bans?
Rillachads rise up.png


Seriously, though. Having two fewer offensive threats that could eat up a boosted Grassy Glide makes this thing even more of a whole-ass threat than it used to be, and with Cinderace being gone (for now) it's entirely possible that the contact punishment measures people took to deal with its otherwise-free U-Turn will fall out of favor, thus making this thing a massive pain to deal with.
 

pulsar512b

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is a Pre-Contributor
Uh...So maybe we're getting that Zamazenta-Crowned suspect test way sooner than I thought lol. Anyways I don't have a whole list of losers and winners from this ban but I definitely do think Galarian Slowking is going to fall out of favor a little bit since it was one of the few things that could really check Magearna consistently. On the other hand, I think Glowking's Kantonian Cousin,Slowbro will get better with it no longer having to eat Stab U-Turns and Specs Volt Switches now
In addition, consider how much worse Future Sight becomes with two of it's biggest abusers gone. Slowbro-Galar becomes worse, Slowbro better.

Heatran can finally run more offensive sets without being too concerned about Cinderace HJK (thus wanting protect) or Magearna
 
View attachment 317713

Seriously, though. Having two fewer offensive threats that could eat up a boosted Grassy Glide makes this thing even more of a whole-ass threat than it used to be, and with Cinderace being gone (for now) it's entirely possible that the contact punishment measures people took to deal with its otherwise-free U-Turn will fall out of favor, thus making this thing a massive pain to deal with.
Rillaboom is gonna dunk on this metagame just like it was in the process of doing when IOA banned Ace and Mag there too! This shit is too funny!
 
YES.

I honestly wish this approach was taken more in general, eg: KB could have not been unbanned at the start of DLC 2 and been suspected later down the line instead.
Anyway:
With Magearna and Cinderace being quickbanned, what do you guys believe are the biggest winners and the biggest losers from these bans?
Winners:
:Tornadus-Therian: So this is the best wincon in the tier now. You can't just slap on a team and expect it to do things like Magearna could though, it needs a very solid backbone that gives it the chance to cripple and outlast its checks. But given plenty of time to Knock things, account for misses and Nasty Plot up, it basically puts your opponent's entire team on a timer until you hit those Fing Focus Blasts.
:Rillaboom: Kinda hard to ignore this thing now isn't it? It hasn't seen that much use in SPL thusfar, though perhaps that's about to change. TBH, the Tapus and Heatran being around weakens this a ton, so I'm not expecting this to be anywhere near what it was.
:Kyurem: Our favourite monstrosity loves these bans. The best answers in the tier to Freeze-Dry bar Heatran are both gone.
:Hydreigon: ohno.jpeg is your face when this thing reveals Nasty Plot. Not being Magearna food and U-turn fodder for Cinderace are huge.
:Aegislash: Aegi Gang. Still No Switch Ins. Bottom Text.
:Latios:? Its prayers have been answered! Get ready for Latios to dunk on every Blissey and Heatran ever with its new Dragon Dance set that loses to literally everything but Blissey and Heatran! Yeah! FR, this thing still faces big competition from Zam and Lele, as well as Dragons like Hydreigon. It's going to be an interesting gen for the Lati twins, and we might for the first time have a metagame where both are niche picks.
Losers:
:Moltres: Bye. See you in UU.
:Zeraora: This might be an odd one, but without all the Cinderace/Magearna VoltTurn structures, this is a lot harder to fit in now I think. It's still going to be good, just less prominent. Might even stay UU, we'll see how VoltTurn etc do.
:Slowbro: Ok, hear me out here. Slowbro is a bulky Water whose main niches are: being a Cinderace check that handles Future Sight, and partnering with Cinderace so Future Sight can break its checks. I think Slowbro will face a lot of tight competition from here on out, not least with the rising Slowking.
:Regieleki: Don't you just hate it when your friends who you set screens for (and they occasionally return the favour by weakening grounds) get banned? I know, so frustrating!
 
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YES.

I honestly wish this approach was taken more in general, eg: KB could have not been unbanned at the start of DLC 2 and been suspected later down the line instead.
Anyway:

Winners:
:Tornadus-Therian: So this is the best wincon in the tier now. You can't just slap on a team and expect it to do things like Magearna could though, it needs a very solid backbone that gives it the chance to cripple and outlast its checks. But given plenty of time to Knock things, account for misses and Nasty Plot up, it basically puts your opponent's entire team on a timer until you hit those Fing Focus Blasts.
:Rillaboom: Kinda hard to ignore this thing now isn't it? It hasn't seen that much use in SPL thusfar, though perhaps that's about to change. TBH, the Tapus and Heatran being around weakens this a ton, so I'm not expecting this to be anywhere near what it was.
:Kyurem: Our favourite monstrosity loves these bans. The best answers in the tier to Freeze-Dry bar Heatran are both gone.
:Hydreigon: ohno.jpeg is your face when this thing reveals Nasty Plot. Not being Magearna food and U-turn fodder for Cinderace are huge.
:Aegislash: Aegi Gang. Still No Switch Ins. Bottom Text.
:Latios:? Its prayers have been answered! Get ready for Latios to dunk on every Blissey and Heatran ever with its new Dragon Dance set that loses to literally everything but Blissey and Heatran! Yeah! FR, this thing still faces big competition from Zam and Lele, as well as Dragons like Hydreigon. It's going to be an interesting gen for the Lati twins, and we might for the first time have a metagame where both are niche picks.
Losers:
:Moltres: Bye. See you in UU.
:Zeraora: This might be an odd one, but without all the Cinderace/Magearna VoltTurn structures, this is a lot harder to fit in now I think. It's still going to be good, just less prominent. Might even drop to UU, we'll see how VoltTurn etc do.
:Slowbro: Ok, hear me out here. Slowbro is a bulky Water whose main niches are: being a Cinderace check that handles Future Sight, and partnering with Cinderace so Future Sight can break its checks. I think Slowbro will face a lot of tight competition from here on out, not least with the rising Slowking.
:Regieleki: Don't you just hate it when your friends who you set screens for (and they occasionally return the favour by weakening grounds) get banned? I know, so frustrating!
not trying to nipick but...
zeraora is in UU always has been.
 
With Magearna and Cinderace being quickbanned, what do you guys believe are the biggest winners and the biggest losers from these bans?
:tapu-lele: :latios:
Lele was already amazing but with Mag exiting the tier one of its best switch ins on offensive and balance teams is gone, along with the great speed control of Ace pressuring it. Is there any single mon that walls psyshock/moonblast/focus b? Gonna be an even more amazing mon. Latios also finally has a niche in the tier with Magearna who directly outclassed it as a specs special attacker leaving and Cinderace whose speed tier and U Turns heavily punished Latios on offensive builds.

:slowking:
This might be an under the radar pick but I think Slowking is going to continue to rise. I think there is going to be a decrease in :slowbro: and :slowking-galar: due to their roles as checks to Cinder and Mag respectively. Metagame trends favoring breakers like Rillaboom, Lele and Latios could make it a lot easier to justify slotting in Slowking as your Slow of choice.

(Also ty council we appreciate you and you're continuing to do a great job, especially since DLC 2)

So happy to see the dumb bunnies go :D
 
I approve whole heartedly with the quickbans.

With Magearna and Cinderace being quickbanned, what do you guys believe are the biggest winners and the biggest losers from these bans?
Winners: Beefy grass types like ferrothorn and tangrowth get a bit better.
Non-choice scarf Kartana variants also gets better with ace gone.
Blissey - one less physical attacker is always a plus for the blob and magearna was one of the few mons it can't wall on the special side. I think it will serve better as a pivot without being crippled by mage tricking it choice specs.
Blacephalon - it greatly appreciates not having to win mind games to beat ace's sucker punch or auto-losing if its choice locked.

Losers: Heatran - I don't think it necessarily gets any worse but I believe its usage may drop.
Slowbro - without the prevalence of ace, I don't think slowbro will get as many opportunities to switch in as freely as it has. Not to mention it was one of Ace's best teammates giving it precious future sight support.
Slowking-galar - with mage gone, I expect it to see a drop in usage. Personally when using it over blissey as my SpD wall, a major reason was because of its superior ability to deal with choice specs mage. It resisted 2/3 of its attacks and easily soaked up the other and it doesn't mind being tricked specs as much as Blissey.
 
Yay the bunnies are gone! This meta is gonna improve so much from this. Now I won’t have to slap Lando or Tran on all of my teams anymore. Just found out about this so I got some stuff to talk about.

Winners•

0EBAC4F5-8FA3-4C24-B27C-022EBC083EAE.png

Clef just lost two big threats to its name. This right off the back makes Clef far better since CM sets have even less checks with the departure of the two buns.

B1168C3E-112F-48E1-82CE-E08E12EA7037.png

Chomp now has more freedom to run SD sets since Ace is gone. Chomp might go from A+ rank to S rank in the next month with these new changes.

F8E614F5-55B9-48E1-8CE3-D49F61194B95.png

Rillaboom is gonna be nuts with Mag gone. Rilla nearly OHKOd Ace with Glide anyways. With a potential surge of SD Chomp, Rilla is gonna be more valuable on teams as a rkiller, and offensive support.

F3BC489E-6498-440F-9507-1F5BEBA73F84.png

Torn is even scarier now, no longer having to run Heat Wave to plow Mag on NP sets anymore. FBlast hits most of the metagame which will benefit Torn’s offensive capabilities. There might be an increase of Rilla usage so teams are going to appreciate having both a phenomenal breaker and Rilla check.

860270FB-7605-4BF5-B8EB-096281DC1CCD.png

Corviknight is gonna have more breathing room, no longer being forced out by strong ass Volt Switches or Pyro Balls. Not only that but the qbs encourages Rilla and SD Chomp use which Corv can take advantage of.

FD1B93AD-B634-4774-B90A-87FB0301FD29.png

Another offensive grass that appreciates losing two big name checks. CB Kart might replace Ace as the best FS abuser in the tier, having virtually no safe switch ins other than Mandi. Checking Rillaboom and Chomp is also gonna become more valuable.

3FAA3F0D-3EC1-4D36-8E5C-6B3AB0BED5BE.png

Hydreigon doesn’t have to run EP for Mag as often anymore. Hydrei can test the waters with DPulse, Flamethrower, or Flash Cannon to take out Clef. Plus it’s no longer UTurn food for Ace.

1702B620-19C7-4C56-9226-AE31374A86F2.png

The issue wasn’t Pert itself, it was just hard to justify using Pert as your bulky ground or water due to Lando, Pex, or Slowbro being more necessary for Ace. With Ace gone Pert has gained more splashability on Balance/BO teams that can check a good portion of the metagame like Koko, Lando, and Glowking.

838F2AFA-E7CE-44C7-92B7-4846BE8446D8.png

Like Rilla, Bulu lost two mons that could force it out. Not much else to say here.

FBBBF6B2-C565-48AF-ABD9-FA121C57A211.png
5637D9DF-7098-4AB2-907D-9737BD7B8F58.png
0E161914-10CD-46AD-9F29-46BD4194E6B1.png
EDA43FB3-91CE-40C6-A35F-4C713CAB727A.png
F1B7A79A-F8F2-4E56-AC1A-26465FF1572F.png

The mons mentioned here were overshadowed by rabbit with Lucario pants and fairy Electrode. Blaziken won’t be able to replicate Ace’s niche since why would you when it has SD, but this set might be the closest.

Blaziken @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature/Naive Nature
- Flare Blitz/Fire Blast
- Close Combat
- Knock Off/Earthquake
- U-turn

With this set Blaziken can act as an okay offensive pivot that can threaten stuff out and spam Knock Off or strong stab moves. Add Future Sight into the mix and you basically get a Dollar Store version of Ace. Just use SD. Latios and Lele not only faced competition with Mag as special breakers, but they got checked by it too. With Mag out of the picture Latios and Lele became scarier again. Magnezone was already good, but it just got better with Ace and Mag being gone. Zone is the closest mon to replicate Mag’s niche. With Mag’s base 130 SpA, similar speed tier and everything except not busted. Plus with Rilla and Corv potentially gaining more usage, it’s niche has just gotten more valuable. Victini might be able to be splashed on non-HO teams now being able to nuke shit with V-Create without being a worse Ace. There could potentially be some other exploration like HDB Mixed sets and Sub-Power Up Punch.

Overall this and the previous bans are what this tier exactly needs to bring about a healthy metagame. Nothing is really broken rn imo. The closest thing to broken material imo is Slowbro, other than that we might get to finally see an actual metagame in SS for the first time in SS’s history.
 

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