Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[BitBitio]

1. What are you most excited to use in the new metagame?
-Love this guy. He has a solid niche imo, especially once the broken crap gets out of here. He can set rocks, pivot, and has some interesting offensive capabilities as well. This may just be a personal bias tho, more likely to end up UU with a niche in OU.
-The perfect partner to Urshifu-S. Clef/Pex/Bird cores were very common pre-CT in order to stop this guy from deleting your team and now, Nidoking is here and can delete those too. Also, Buzzwole drops to Flamethrower in one hit after SR, or in two to Sludge Wave. I think that the typing also has some interesting utility.

Imo they all fall in the same boat- formerly broken mons, some of which remain broken and some of which may not be. All are super fun to spam on ladder, that's for sure.
2. What pre-dlc mons are expected to get hit the hardest?
-the Queen of OU is still fantastic, but instead of being the most incredible, essential glue for any non-HO team, some other glues like Lando-T and Heatran can fill its place to some degree.
-The guy reached the top 10 of OU but now Ground types are absolutely everywhere. I still think it can adapt and be good, but I've been wrong before.
-Same case as Magnezone but like we all thought at DLC 1, this guy is probably done with his tenure in OU. This time, instead of mostly resists coming, it's Ground types. Special sets with Grass Knot can somewhat alleviate this, but Zera is done now imo.
*Laughs in Heatran and no HP Ground* Still OU or UUBL, but no longer can it burn the metagame to ashes everywhere it goes. Sorry pal.
-No longer is Excadrill your end-all utility ground type. An expected drop in viability will come.
-Same deal as Excadrill. There is an opportunity cost to running more than one ground per team and thus a drop in viability is inevitable.
3. What pre-dlc mons are expected to benefit the most or see a rise in viability?
-With all the nuts HO running around on the ladder, stall will always rise to combat it. The best stallbreaker of the old meta kills HO teams well, as many of their mons can't handle Aqua Jet coming off of Band or LO+SD.
-Remember the ground types, and that one time where Bulu didn't get Grassy Glide? Yeah Rillaboom loves the new meta.
-the birds are great checks to the ground types, and each fill their own purpose like before.
-The King of OU is better with all the broken crap it checks. At the same time, other stuff kills it pretty good, but with the higher prevalence of sand in the meta, Ttar will be good nonetheless.
I think it'll actually be OU now thanks to Sand Rush and its powerful Bolt Beak.
4. How do you feel about the new Galarian Formes, Regis, and horse legendaries?
Zapdos-Galar -Sick mon ngl. OU for sure, I've been running Lefties, T-Kick, BB, Bulk Up, and U-turn.
Articuno-Galar -Eh. Good, but more of a "UU mon" good than OU.
Moltres-Galar -Disappointing, never use over regular Moltres. lol
Slowking-Galar -Niche option on stall, but it'll likely be the fourth Slow down in UU. So that's rad.
Regieleki -Honestly despite the lack of coverage, this will be good in OU. Baller speed tier, high power thanks to Transistor, and some utility options, what more do you need?
Regidrago -It feels... sloppy. Special signature move, but no means of boosting and no special coverage. Physical movepool is ok and it has DD, but it still gets walled by Clef. 200 HP, but 50 in each defense. Average speed. idk maybe RU/UU?
Glastrier -Lol. Yet another slow Ice type, when will GF learn. Good on TR, and probably busted in any other tier tbh. UUBL/maybe OU.
Spectrier -No coverage, but high speed, NP, and a great offensive STAB. Oh yeah. Definitely OU once the broken stuff is gone.
Calyrex -lol
5. What do you believe will be overhyped and what will die down after being given the "new toy" treatment?
-They didn't get better but other stuff did. Likely still OU but not as dominant as last gen.
-Both are formerly banned steel type mythicals that arguably weren't broken, but ended up banned anyway. The ground types, as well as Cinderace/Blaziken/Heatran, will keep them OU.
6. What do you think will be some of the strongest offensive threats in the metagame?

Yep, just copy-pasted all the unbans minus Melmetal and plus Torn-T. They were banned for a reason. Imo Lando-I, Pheremosa, Genesect, Naganadel, and Blaziken are going quick. Out of these, Blaziken will probably last the longest.
7. What do you think will be some of the strongest defensive options in the metagame?

These guys have always been the best at the job and I doubt things will change.
8. How do you think existing pokemon will adjust? For example, will Toxapex change from a physically defensive set to a specially defensive set, and will Dragapult go from a mixed attacker to a purely special one?
If somehow sticks around, it'll be special sets with Grass Knot to kill the Ground types. changes sets like every day, I think Specs and DD will both be better than before thanks to their individual strengths being more suited to this new meta imo. Other than that idk I'll let other people go more in depth.
9. What is your favorite returning mon?
-Love this mon, first starter and by extension Pokemon I ever had. Honestly though, metagame wise, I gotta say which we needed back so badly.
10. I hope you all have a wonderful weekend and enjoy playing the new Crown Tundra DLC both in-game and on here :)
You too! Thanks!

 

[robofiend]

Gotta say I was expecting this meta to be a total shitshow -- granted it's been less than 24 hours. But so far, my impressions:

The loss of Hidden Power is huge for this meta. So many mons that previously had perfect coverage are now hindered by slightly less-than-perfect coverage. Koko, Lele, Lando-I, Lando-T, Naganandel, Blacephalon, and a host of other mons get crimped by this change, though not at all to the point of being unviable. It also changes the face of defense and BO, which frequently relied on niche HP to cast a wider defensive net than their "natural" movepool would allow.

The loss of Z moves is nothing less than transformative. Whether it's sweepers like Magearna now lacking several setup nukes, Heatran and other fire types lacking a surefire kill on potential water-type counters, or wide movepool mixed attackers lacking setup moves or specific counter-killers (Lando, Victini, Torn-T, Zygarde, Kartana, etc.) this change massively changes meta dynamics and unbreaks a lot of offensive sweepers to some degree.

Terrain and weather are underrated at this point, as no team is absolutely capable of checking all weather types, mitigating terrains, and simultaneously providing realistic wincons of their own. The increased availability of Weather Ball alongside coincidental improvements for certain weather cores (Rain Flip Turn, Sun/Rain Articuno/Zapdos to delete steels or ground types, Sand/Hail improving passive damage against a meta overrun with HDB) will definitely make things interesting for weeks to come.

More than anything, it's exciting to have a meta with so many new threats and once again watch what comes out on top - all I can ask is to hold the quickbans for a week or two, because at this point even Lando-I, Cinderace, and Genesect feel reasonably subdued compared to past metas, if only for the glut of other options we have to compete with them.

 

[Kutscher]

Idk how much people have experimented with rain, but kabutops has been putting in work for me. Its stab combo is so nice and because the metagame is so offensive, it's very good because of swift swim. I have been running sd/waterfall/edge/jet with LO. Jet is SOOOOO good at picking off weakened mons and is a pretty big threat in rain at +2. Agility LO zapdos with thunder/cane/weather ball is a sick cleaner too. Curious to see how the archetype develops in the coming months.

Omastar may have some niche too because of smash+herb meteor beam, similar to his role as rain smash + z move in sm

 

[Ash Borer]

Can we break the record for how fast Gene gets banned? Banded +1 E-Speed is as hilarious as it ever was.

 

[Hugin]

Can we break the record for how fast Gene gets banned? Banded +1 E-Speed is as hilarious as it ever was.

I agree with Robo, let's hold the quickbans for a bit. Yeah, E-Speed is a silly move in general, but right now there's a lot of steels running around, a couple ghosts, etc. It's not a reliable way of killing things, and we don't know what's going to be common in the near future. Frankly, there's so much wild stuff running around, I don't think we can differentiate between legit good vs completely busted in the first few days.

I'm wondering if all of this speed is going to make bulky offense eventually come out on top. Maybe once a couple of bans come in. It's just so hard to have any guaranteed way to outspeed when Gene's E-Speed, Rain, Scarf 140+ mon, Regieleki etc, are running around. IDK, I'm not that great a player, it just seems like living strong-but-not-stupidly-strong hits has been pretty valuable for me so far.

 

[robofiend]

I will say that in ladder world, where people don't always play or build well, that I've been running my pre-DLC BO squads and having an ok time.

And to speak a little more to BO/defense: this update has given us some rock solid BO options. Between the birds, Celesteela, Zygarde, the Tapus, Heatran and Torn/Lando-T, among others, there's a lot of new stuff to play with.

One thing I haven't seen is stall - I don't know if that's just lost in the "new offensive toys" rush or if stall isn't viable anymore - but it's worth asking ourselves how much we care about the balance between offense and defense in this meta. With HDB and Knock Off as omnipotent mechanics, it's definitely a much different landscape for stall and BO than in previous gens with Megas and hazard stacks.

 

[kstiemsma]

some of the mons that haven't been discussed as much that I've played around with


alongside this thing forms a really great two mon defensive core. moltres has such good pivoting, i've just been running HDB flamethrower/defog/roost/u-turn with max spdef and getting great results. the lack of knock off users in the meta right now make it even more difficult to break and looking forward to seeing how this guy develops on balance and stall builds


I was super hyped about this guy, but so far feels pretty underwhelming to me. running boots drain punch/dual wing/ice punch/roost and it feels so passive when getting on the field. always feels like you're either getting that monster bulk or having usable attack, haven't found that sweet spot but it is invalidated by any defensive switch in and really only feels like it has a semblance of value vs opposing HO.


really excited to use this guy on rain, but feels underwhelming so far. the amount of priority in addition to the two best pivots

outspeeding it with swift swim bonus active. you can run timid which feels noticeably weaker but you're still outsped by eleki with few opportunities to set up. if the opposing team has a there's no way to get use and the 80/85% accuracy of its best moves leaves it unreliable. tho it is awesome to do 80%+ to blissey with rain boosted meteor hydros


have not used the queen as much as I would like to. Toxic Spikes three attacks seems the best in my limited testing with it. The prevalence of electric spam and heatran grants it free sheer force LO attacks or tspikes which is great for bulky teams against the HO infested meta. you also get the benefits of slicing through against fatter teams. definitely is going to require some EV optimization to be really effective but think she has a real shot at a great defensive niche similar to what mantine did pre DLC2

 

[TURBODERP]

I will say that in ladder world, where people don't always play or build well, that I've been running my pre-DLC BO squads and having an ok time.

And to speak a little more to BO/defense: this update has given us some rock solid BO options. Between the birds, Celesteela, Zygarde, the Tapus, Heatran and Torn/Lando-T, among others, there's a lot of new stuff to play with.

One thing I haven't seen is stall - I don't know if that's just lost in the "new offensive toys" rush or if stall isn't viable anymore - but it's worth asking ourselves how much we care about the balance between offense and defense in this meta. With HDB and Knock Off as omnipotent mechanics, it's definitely a much different landscape for stall and BO than in previous gens with Megas and hazard stacks.

I think Galarian Slowking might find a niche in BO/semi-stall teams, although maybe not right now. While (IIRC) it doesn't have Teleport which definitely hurts, 10 base more Special Attack (compared to the non-Galarian versions) is nice for Future Sight, and Poison/Psychic actually has some nice advantages of regular Slowbro/Slowking in this meta-namely, G-Slowking isn't weak to U-Turn or Volt Switch and also resists Grass and Fairy. Yes, being weak to Ground sucks since Heatran and Lando-I exist, but those aforementioned defensive benefits are notable. And G-Slowking has great coverage coming off of 110 Special Attack, with Sludge Bomb, Scald, Future Sight, and Flamethrower all being great options.

 

[Hardbodied Egg]

The release of Dracozolt gaining access to its hidden ability, Sand Rush, may probably be among the most impactful change to the entire Sand archetype since the inception of of the ability with Excadrill in BW and the universal weather nerf in ORAS.

Traditionally, Rain has usually been the premier choice for weather-based offense (spoilers: it still probably is). Not only benefitting from the 50% water damage boost, but having multiple speed-doubling threats from the some of the likes of Mega Swampert, Kingdra, Barraskewda, and Omastar to name a few. Sun and Sand lagged behind in the speed department of amount of mons who could take advantage. Don't get me wrong, Venusaur and Excadrill are insane under their respective weathers. However, more often than not they must share the whole burden as a "win condition that rewards getting the weather up" alongside another strong wallbreaker (Solar Power Zard, Scarf Darm, CB Tyranitar) that doesn't enjoy the goodness of +2 speed. For the sake of the post, how this relates to building sand offence is the idea that the lack of fast, immediate power leads the final product to be more balanced than originally intended, something Rain doesn't have to deal with as often.

Let's talk about Sand Rush.

In terms of the ability itself, Excadrill has been carrying sand offense on its back for the longest time: great typing, amazing attack stat, secondary function as a spinner. It is completely capable of handling teams by itself. Unfortunately, that's the extent of exceptional candidates.

Stoutland in previous gens was a niche pick in OU who could tear apart unsuspecting teams. What held it back was its very prediction-reliant playstyle and its inability to break some of the tier's most common physical walls, regardless of coverage. Currently, Stoutland is an afterthought because the removal of Return and lack of strong normal stab prevents it from hitting as hard as it did.

Sandslash is outclassed by Excadrill in every single way with the exception of having Knock Off. Lycanroc has priority and a great attack and speed stat outside of sand, sorta functioning like the Sand equivalent of Barraskewda. The difference is its stab moves don't get buffed by weather making it significantly harder to break through walls without setting up. It also can't pivot out to mitigate it's frail defenses and scout for switches/moves. These mons have no business being sweepers in the tier.

As you can see, viable options are scarce. But, Crown Tundra gave us something that may completely change how we view weather and offense.

We've seen this already; Dracozolt has average stats, nothing too impressive. It has a really good typing both offensively and defensively. If you opt to run Sand Rush, you are giving up on Hustle which is a built in Choice Band at the cost of lower accurate moves. Those who are familiar with using Dracozolt are going to notice the difference. What you sacrifice in maximum damage output, you will benefit with almost guaranteed 170BP Bolt Beaks fired at will.

some bolt beak calcs without hustle

252+ Atk Choice Band Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 334-394 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 262-310 (67.8 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 285-336 (87.9 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 280-330 (59.3 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 190-224 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko in Electric Terrain: 283-333 (100.7 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 229-270 (76 - 89.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 84 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 169-199 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Grassy Terrain recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 265-312 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 208-247 (46.8 - 55.6%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 208-247 (62.2 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

With Sand Rush, Max Speed Adamant Dracozolt hits 498 which effectively outspeeds everything unboosted bar Regieleki. It also outpaces some mons at +1 like Volcarona, LandoT, Blaziken, and Kyurem-B, Genesect, and Gyarados.

I think it's a no brainer that the most common sets run will be Banded and Mixed Orb, it seems to have the most success atm.

Choice Band
Dracozolt @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Earthquake / High Horsepower
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Fire Fang

Mixed Life Orb
Dracozolt @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 16 SpA / 240 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw / Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast


The synergy between Zolt and some standard members of sand offense is interesting.

+

Dracozolt can take some pressure off the water and fire attacks, simultaneously dealing with some flying nuisances [Corviknight, Mandibuzz, Celesteela] while Excadrill can reliably take on fairies and potentially other dragons. Offensively, the combination of Ground/Steel/Electric/Dragon typing between them hits everything for neutral damage except Air Balloon Magnezone (which, unless completely defensive, gets shredded by bolt beak). A very dangerous core that can be built around.

+

Other than setting up the sand, Hippowdown can act as a sponge for stronger hits that Dracozolt doesn't want to take. Notably, Hippo's bulk allows it to check opposing Sand Rush abusers. It can also potentially get up hazards to break sashes and open up some 2hitko opportunities (although the rise of boots may make it redundant). Likewise, Hippo appreciates the water and grass resist.

+

Tyranitar has no problem taking special hits, as it is Dracozolt's weaker defense. Combined with its monstrous attack that allows it to wallbreak alongside Zolt with 4 great offensive stabs. The loss of Pursuit is unfortunate because it would have been great and revenge killing extremely fast Scarfers like Dragapult. Outside of that, Ttar doesn't have much that would justify using it as a primary setter over Hippo, but it would be worth considering.

***​

As a final sidenote, I don't think Sand will be close to broken anytime soon, especially in OU's current landscape. Even with the addition of Sand Rush Dracozolt, there is still counterplay and some unfavourable matchups. However, I genuinely feel like once the meta settles down has had a chance to stabilize for a month or two, this could be a staple for many.

 

[BreloomBoyBouttaSpore]

1. What are you most excited to use in the new metagame?

Banded Genesect. After it gets banned, G-Dos is my next pick

2. What pre-dlc mons are expected to get hit the hardest?

Rhyperior, Crawduant, Indeedee(Not ou but was niche) and zeraora. I also think alakazam might drop, but hatterene might stay


3. What pre-dlc mons are expected to benefit the most or see a rise in viability?


Dont know.


4. How do you feel about the new Galarian Formes, Regis, and horse legendaries?

Slowking: Nice regenerator poison for uu, not going to be very succesful

Articuno: Pairs well with bulu for a potentially good uu core, not going to be very good though

Zapdos: Looks to be good even now. With a scarf it hits 150 speed, and with a band it hits a bit over 180. The bulk up set looks good, but missing u-turn or a coverage move really hurts it

Moltres: Bad Mandibuzz. Solid UU Mon

Calyrex: Bad Celebi. RU/NU mon

Glastier(?): Takes a hit and takes a mon. Cant really kill 2 mons, and trick room isnt good right now. Still probably good as a wallbreaker though. Might be good once the meta gets weaker.

Spectrier: If they dont have blissey or ttar, they lose. On a serious note, 130 speed, nasty plot, special moxie and stab ghost is good. Only problem is coverage.

Calyrex-Ice: I dont play ubers, so idk. Looks decent though

Calyrex-Shadow: From what I've heard, this is zacian levels of good. 150 speed, 165 spatk, special moxie, draining kiss, 120 bp ghost stab with no drawbacks.

Regilieki: Absurdly powerful if there isnt a resist. UUBL at worst

Regidrago: Too fast for trick room, to slow for sweeps. Maybe NU

5. What do you believe will be overhyped and what will die down after being given the "new toy" treatment?

Galar Slowbro, Galar Articuno, Regidrago,


6. What do you think will be some of the strongest offensive threats in the metagame?

(Not in order) Regilieki, Zygarde if not banned, Urshifu(Both), Spectrier, Magearna, Ditto, Rillaboom, Koko, Ice Horse, TTar, Zolt


7. What do you think will be some of the strongest defensive options in the metagame?

Landorus-T, Ditto, Heatran, Ferrothorn, knight/steela/skarm, Blissey, Toxapex, Amoongus, TTar


8. How do you think existing pokemon will adjust? For example, will Toxapex change from a physically defensive set to a specially defensive set, and will Dragapult go from a mixed attacker to a purely special one?

I dont feel like answering

9. What is your favorite returning mon?

Garchomp, they should have given it DD though

10. I hope you all have a wonderful weekend and enjoy playing the new Crown Tundra DLC both in-game and on here :)

Thanks!

 

[Spectral Thief]

QUICKBAN naganadel,genesect and lando-i,they are broken AF,council pls do something

 

[Arcueid]

A core that I have been using in this early metagame is Urshifu-S + Naganadel.

Urshifu @ Choice Band
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn

Naganadel @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Sludge Wave
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower

A really offensive duo - these two Pokemon are amazing at complimenting each other as one remains to be an amazing physical attacker from the last meta and the other is one of the best special attackers right now. One of Urshifu's drawbacks is that while it can threaten physically defensive fairies with Poison Jab or Iron Head, it really can not stay on them unless the kill is guaranteed as a Fairy-type STAB such as Clefable's Moonblast OHKOs Urshifu. However, I have been running the banded variant of Urshifu, which can drop Fairy-type coverage for U-turn. So, while this is reliant on you getting your prediction correct, you pivot in Naganadel while you're expecting a physically defensive Fairy to switch in.

Naganadel, however, really gets walled hard by specially defensive walls such Heatran, Tyranitar, and Blissey that it cannot threaten unless Naganadel has somehow gotten two boosts from Nasty Plot. It gets paired really well with Urshifu as Urshifu has no problems breaking through above mentioned Pokemon. Beast Boost and Nasty Plot alone allow it to break through and pressurize most teams as it outspeeds the entire tier, unless the opponent has something like Jolly Blaziken at +2, Adamant Blaziken at +3 speed, Pheromosa with more buffs to speed because of more Beast Boosts, or unless the opponent is running priority moves to revenge kill Naganadel.

This duo, however, gets checked by Assault Vest Magearna as it gets 3HKO'd by Flamethrower and 2HKO'd by Close Combat with Fleur Cannon achieving the OHKO on both these Pokemon, so it is important that Magearna is chipped first in matchups against it. Moreover, since neither of these Pokemon are running HDB, both can get chipped over time due to hazards stacking in battles where both are forced to switch in often, hence a hazard remover feels needed at times with this core. Pokemon like Excadrill, Tornadus-T, or Zapdos can fit in really well to support this core, especially Excadrill as it can threaten Magearna with STAB EQ (unfortunately, it cannot OHKO Magearna but it weakens it a lot)

>252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 300-354 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

tl;dr: Urshifu and Naganadel combined on their own can pressurize most of the tier because of how painful their combination of STABs are and how Urshifu now has a really good partner to deal with pesky Fairies that threaten it.

On a side note, Jolly Urshifu can be run in this core to outspeed anything under base 97 Speed with a +Speed nature, such as Kyurem-B, another threat in this new meta, but I prefer the Adamant variant because of its increased damage output. I do intend to write more on Kyurem-B as the DD set is just absurdly powerful and tears through unprepared teams.

 

[Lin]

Talky Time!

1. What are you most excited to use in the new metagame?

Galarian Slowking excites me the most. With its unique move Eerie Spell and access to Block, it looks like a hell of an interesting progress maker against fat. Moreover, its bulk is not lacking from Slowking, when compared to Slowbro > Galarbro transition. This enables potential Assault Vest sets with acceptable bulk to perhaps see in some bulky offense teams. Overall I believe it's a Pokemon with potential and we get to see it.

2. What pre-dlc mons are expected to get hit the hardest?

Zeraora perhaps? It has always been a pushover Pokemon that was forced into some builds. It is by no means a "good" Pokemon and now we have a lot more threats that can comfortably wall it (Such as Landorus-T), so I don't expect Zeraora to stick around any longer.

3. What pre-DLC mons are expected to benefit the most or see a rise in viability?

I expect regular Slowking to rise. Future Sight is still broken, Teleport is still good, it's still efficient as an Sp. Def pivot now walling stuff like Tapu Lele and Heatran so I feel it can definitively pull its weight.

4. How do you feel about the new Galarian Formes, Regis, and horse legendaries?

LOL, the Regis. Everyone was so hyped up to finally have "good Regis" with 200 in attacks but many people got their hopes way too high up from leaks and now getting disappointed over it. Regidraco is just a slightly bit better Guzzlord while Regieleki is just fodder to any Ground-type Pokemon. However, Regieleki has an interesting kit in Dual Screens, Rapid Spin, and Explosion and actually has 150/200 offenses for Electric-type moves so it can be an interesting HO Pokemon. Galarian Zapdos works very well from my experience, the other two birds are no ou material. Ghost horse is also pretty dope and can be quite dangerous I think.

5. What do you believe will be overhyped and what will die down after being given the "new toy" treatment?

Regieleki is definitively overhyped. As I explained above its hard to predict what will happen to that Pokemon tho, its speed tier is ridiculously high. It outspeeds Kingdra under rain.

6. What do you think will be some of the strongest offensive threats in the metagame?

Urshifu will remain strong, Victini, Blacephalon, and Latios are also potential candidates. The lack of Expanding Force on Lele makes me think it will stay OU and become a threat as well.

7. What do you think will be some of the strongest defensive options in the metagame?

Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Clefable, Heatran, Slowking, Zapdos, Celesteela, Corviknight, Amoonguss.

8. How do you think existing pokemon will adjust? For example, will Toxapex change from a physically defensive set to a specially defensive set, and will Dragapult go from a mixed attacker to a purely special one?

Dragapult should probably go from Mixed to Special because it cants OHKO Garchomp and Zygarde behind a sub, which is quite alarming. Honestly can't think of anything that will require serious adjustments tho.

9. What is your favorite returning mon?

Raikou, it learning Scald makes Grounds no longer a safe switchin, so it will be interesting to threaten mons like Hippowdon and Landorus-T with burn.



Some more notes, unrelated.

+
I've been toying around and quite a lot. Its very common for people to forget old threats during a period of experimenting when everyone focuses on the new additions. I have ran into plenty of unprepared teams against Urshifu, and Slowking just works flawlessly when paired with it.

+
Dragapult got more Pokemon to outspeed, still works flawlessly and its partner Zapdos is quite helpful to spread paralysis thus giving freedom to run Will-o-wisp. Overall Pult's Hex set is heavily enhanced and makes a decent balance core. When paired with Pokemon to patch their shared weaknesses it functions quite well.



Please get rid of this thing at once. The lack of HP ice makes this thing near impossible to check and allows it to outpace some of its conventional checks such as Tangrowth. Its quite annoying to deal with it and I hope we won't wait for another half-generation to vote this out.

 

[zzhlph]

Crown Tundra is finally upon us! I am very excited about this upcoming metagame but, there is some broken stuff I would like to talk about.

- This thing is absolutely bonkers. Its ability Download can allow it to get a free +1 in either Physical Attack or Special Attack combined with its insane move pool, it has a plethora amount of coverage such as Blaze Kick, Ice Beam, Explosion, Gunk Shot, Zen Headbutt, and the thing which I think which puts it even more over the edge, Extreme Speed. Since Genesect isn't that fast compared to some of the other things in the meta but, with Extreme Speed it can OHKO Pheromosa, Landorus, Blaziken, Cinderace, and Naganadel. Of course, Genesect can run other sets such as Shift Gear LO or even a Choice Specs set but, I believe its Choice Band set is its best. With an Adamant Nature, Genesect hits 372 Attack UNBOOSTED. Then you can include Choice Band and Download puts it at 837 Attack. Genesect literally has a stronger Extreme Speed than E-Killer Arceus which is absurd. If you can't kill your opponents Pokemon with Extreme Speed or the endless amount of coverage, then you can also just U-Turn out. Genesect has been proven to be broken in the past and I don't think it will be healthy in Gen8 either.
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 175-208 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO


- Gonna put these together because they both are insane Special Attackers that are both quite annoying to try and wall. Naganadel has setup with Nasty Plot and it can start to snowball teams after getting a kill or two. Landorus with Sheer Force and Life Orb is really annoying to try and wall. Earth Power hits like a truck against, literally anything that isn't resisted. It also has coverage with Sludge Wave and Psychic, as well as it gets U-Turn for pivoting and Calm Mind but, I doubt anyone will use those. I think they should both be banned or suspected.


The birds overall look pretty disappointing but, Zapdos looks really interesting!

Honestly, Zapdos-Galar looks really fun to use. It's signature move isn't that bad 90BP Stab that also lowers the other Pokemon's Defense is quite good in my opinion. Rather want the extra power? Use Close Combat. It gets a good Flying-type stab within Brave Bird and has set up with Bulk Up. I can see people running U-Turn or Taunt in the 4th slot to get momentum or break fat with a combo of Thunderous Kick and Taunt. Life Orb or HDB could be viable as well on Zapdos-Galar, although sadly it doesn't get roost. I can see it dropping to UU and then getting banned there.

Zapdos-Galar @ Expert Belt
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat / Thunderous Kick
- Brave Bird
- Bulk Up
- U-turn / Taunt

Anyway that's enough rambling about those Pokemon lol.

1. What are you most excited to use in the new metagame?

Xurkitree has been so fun using paired with Tapu Koko and having Rising Voltage 140BP Stab in Electric Terrain is very strong. Kyurem-Black has also been really fun using with it's Dragon Dance set, I've been using a WP Screens Kyurem-Black team which has been doing good on the ladder.

2. What pre-dlc mons are expected to get hit the hardest?

Scizor and Zeraora will probaly fall back to UU.

3. What pre-dlc mons are expected to benefit the most or see a rise in viability?

In beginning I think we will see a lot of cheese like Trick Room, Webs and Screens so i'm guessing like Marowak, Mimikyu, Shuckle, and Grimmsnarl.

4. How do you feel about the new Galarian Formes, Regis, and horse legendaries?

I'm sad that Galarian Moltres doesn't get Roost but, im hyped for Galarian Zapdos. Regis look pretty bad but the Electric one has a Specs set, although no coverage. Ice horse will be used on Trick Room a lot because of its low speed. Ghost horse looks really strong but, against no coverage.

5. What do you believe will be overhyped and what will die down after being given the "new toy" treatment?

Trick Room probably.

6. What do you think will be some of the strongest offensive threats in the metagame?

Urshifu still looks good. Nasty Plot Tornadus, Magearna, Kyurem-Black, Kartana, and Blaziken.

7. What do you think will be some of the strongest defensive options in the metagame?

I'm very excited about Buzzwole since it seems it can actually switch into Urshifu very reliably.

8. How do you think existing pokemon will adjust? For example, will Toxapex change from a physically defensive set to a specially defensive set, and will Dragapult go from a mixed attacker to a purely special one?

No clue tbh.

9. What is your favorite returning mon?

Kartana and Zygarde will be really cool after the meta settles down.

10. I hope you all have a wonderful weekend and enjoy playing the new Crown Tundra DLC both in-game and on here :)

You too! :D

 

[PlusC]

People keeps saying Regidrago is a "slightly better Guzzlord" But;

252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 220-259 (30.8 - 36.2%) -- 56.1% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Regidrago Draco Meteor (195 Power) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 336-396 (47 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Decides to Dragon Claw (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

(he can also use Outrage).


Don't underestimate that ability!

He also gets Dragon Energy, which is Water Spout for Dragons, meaning at full health he has a base 225 stab move.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Regidrago Draco Meteor (225 Power) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 789-928 (110.5 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Zetalz]

He also gets Dragon Energy, which is Water Spout for Dragons, meaning at full health he has a base 225 stab move.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Regidrago Draco Meteor (225 Power) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 789-928 (110.5 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

how the hell did you get this calc? lol there's no possible way for specs to OHKO Blissey

252+ SpA Choice Specs Regidrago Dragon's Maw Dragon Energy (225 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 387-456 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I agree people are sleeping a tad on how absurdly strong it's dragon moves are but it really does struggle a lot in this crazy ass meta. I could see it falling to UU potentially after some time but it'd likely be sent back up to UUBL limbo because goddamn, that shit stings. Also Scale Shot is a cool tech I've been messing with, not super consistent but fun.

 

[FCKNfuego]

Genesect literally has a stronger Extreme Speed than E-Killer Arceus which is absurd. If you can't kill your opponents Pokemon with Extreme Speed or the endless amount of coverage, then you can also just U-Turn out. Genesect has been proven to be broken in the past and I don't think it will be healthy in Gen8 either.
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 175-208 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO

Dunno how I feel on Genesect yet but Espeed hasn't really bothered me.

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Grassy Terrain: 237-280 (58.6 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Rilla is even stronger too.

 

[Lin]

I tested it live, damage is enough to reach 2HKO, def not strong enough for an OHKO. Still ridiculous tho seeing a Pokemon designed to soak special hits cannot soak an unboosted hit.

 

[Finchinator]

A couple sets I have been having fun with:

@ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Toxic / filler
- Flip Turn

Having an Electric immunity is pretty important right now; Landorus-I, Landorus-T, Garchomp, and others provide stiff company, but if you want to compress this slot with momentum and a Cinderace/Melmetal check, then Swampert actually can do the trick. It is really cool seeing Swampert have some viability after dying out in generation 5 and remaining in lower tiers for the last two generations. I would advise trying it out!

@ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blue Flare
- Glaciate
- Scorching Sands
- U-turn / Grass Knot / Thunder

FlamingVictini mentioned that it got Scorching Sands in a chat and I knew I had to try this out. Obviously this set is not going to be the absolute strongest and some special walls can check it, but having Scorching Sands to lure Heatran and Glaciate to lure Landorus-T and Garchomp can open things up for a lot of common teammates right now! Victini also soft-checks a lot of Pokemon with its typing and Heavy-Duty Boots equipped.

 

[Zé Capáu]

Heatran will become a solid check for Volcarona and some of its formal counters that relied HP-Ground, thus raising the former's usage more that the threat it already is. However, it has now to avoid walking into Urshifu, as well as it has a lot of mons with access to High Horsepower and some others with Scorching Sands. Keldeo is also back to counter Heatran (and Volcarona), hitting super-effectively and providing a free switch with Flip Turn... or just OHKO it with Hydro Pump. Not to mention that Heatran's usage raise in OU means that its checks and counters will have their usage in the tier raised as well, possibly including things from lower tiers getting more usage in OU or even a new niche because of Heatran (i.e.: Barraskewda, Blastoise, etc).

*Laughs in Heatran and no HP Ground* Still OU or UUBL, but no longer can it burn the metagame to ashes everywhere it goes. Sorry pal.

Welp, despite not countering Heatran anymore, it's the pokémon benefitting the most from Heavy Duty Boots in the whole tier. Going to UUBL because of a single pokémon stopping its rampage seems a bit exaggerated IMO.

have not used the queen as much as I would like to. Toxic Spikes three attacks seems the best in my limited testing with it. The prevalence of electric spam and heatran grants it free sheer force LO attacks or tspikes which is great for bulky teams against the HO infested meta. you also get the benefits of slicing through against fatter teams. definitely is going to require some EV optimization to be really effective but think she has a real shot at a great defensive niche similar to what mantine did pre DLC2

I was recently thinking on a defensive set involving Scorching Sands, as it is a STAB Ground-type Scald, might also add Thunder Wave. Hex is perfect for this (and scares Psychic-types away), but 4-moveslot syndrome hits again, unless you're willing to try ToxicSpikes/StealthRock + ScorchingSands + ThunderWave + Hex, tho. (make sure you're running Poison Point instead of Sheer Force)

 

[TravisB]

QUICKBAN naganadel,genesect and lando-i,they are broken AF,council pls do something

Genesect definitely seems like it needs to go. Its crazy powerful and too versatile for something with that kind of power. There are counters to its specific sets, but it seems really difficult to check all the potential sets it can run without really going overboard to prepare for it.

The other two you mentioned probably need to go soon and there will likely be even more beyond those three that need banned eventually, but Genesect is the only one so far that feels like it 100% needs a quick ban asap. Id be on board for an immediate quick ban of Genesect and then giving it a few more days before deciding on anything else.

 

[Just_Aaron]

People keeps saying Regidrago is a "slightly better Guzzlord" But;

252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 220-259 (30.8 - 36.2%) -- 56.1% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Regidrago Draco Meteor (195 Power) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 336-396 (47 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Decides to Dragon Claw (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

(he can also use Outrage).


Don't underestimate that ability!

He also gets Dragon Energy, which is Water Spout for Dragons, meaning at full health he has a base 225 stab move.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Regidrago Draco Meteor (225 Power) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 789-928 (110.5 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yeah, its resisted STAB Outrage + Dragon's Maw hits harder than a x2 super effective Fire Fang, so it basically only need to spam its STAB and call it a day (I guess Thunder Fang is an option to deal with some fairies like Azumarill, Primarina, Fini and Togekiss), and you have Dragon Energy for more physically defensive mons. It may not be a OU staple, but even then I think it would have a niche (and not fall below RU, likely to stay in UU)

I was recently thinking on a defensive set involving Scorching Sands, as it is a STAB Ground-type Scald, might also add Thunder Wave. Hex is perfect for this (and scares Psychic-types away), but 4-moveslot syndrome hits again, unless you're willing to try ToxicSpikes/StealthRock + ScorchingSands + ThunderWave + Hex, tho.

Just remember to change the ability then, since Sheer Force would remove the burn chance

 

[Negative Charge]

Spectrier is bonkers broken. The absence of a movepool is irrelevant because without pursuit there’s no way to punish this thing, specs just flat out drops teams and god forbid you face a sub hex set. It’s really hard to form an opinion on the other “broken” drops because they are all here together, like I don’t necessarily think Melmetal is too problematic anymore but there’s just too many variables moving around to really say anything conclusive. I wish there was a middle ground time wise between quickbans and full suspects.


Also! Try out flame body Heatran. The sheer level of uturn spam in the tier means you’re going to have a lot of chances to just get free a burn.

 

[inc0gnito]

Genesect definitely seems like it needs to go. Its crazy powerful and too versatile for something with that kind of power. There are counters to its specific sets, but it seems really difficult to check all the potential sets it can run without really going overboard to prepare for it.

The other two you mentioned probably need to go soon and there will likely be even more beyond those three that need banned eventually, but Genesect is the only one so far that feels like it 100% needs a quick ban asap. Id be on board for an immediate quick ban of Genesect and then giving it a few more days before deciding on anything else.

I have a different opinion and I think Genesect is actually the least of the evils of the three. Yes Gene has no 'true' counter, but it actually requires different sets and no one moveset (i.e. Choice Band/Scarf for example) can win games by itself which can't be said for either Naganadel and Lando-I, when giving the opportunity, can sweep teams. Naganadel, if accumulated enough Speed Boosts actually can avoid be revenge killed. In contrast, Genesect can be RK'd even when running a scarf by naturally faster scarfed pokemon. The big advantage of Geneset over these two is the sheer momentum the player can get by simply spamming U-Turn. That said, even this type of strategy has some counterplays (Rocky Helmet, Flame Body).

So in summary, if I were to rank the three evils:
1. Naganadel
2. Lando-I
3. Genesect (Not favor of a quikcban, but definitely deserves a suspect in the future).

 

[Arcueid]

1. What are you most excited to use in the new metagame?
2. What pre-dlc mons are expected to get hit the hardest?
3. What pre-dlc mons are expected to benefit the most or see a rise in viability?
4. How do you feel about the new Galarian Formes, Regis, and horse legendaries?
5. What do you believe will be overhyped and what will die down after being given the "new toy" treatment?
6. What do you think will be some of the strongest offensive threats in the metagame?
7. What do you think will be some of the strongest defensive options in the metagame?
8. How do you think existing pokemon will adjust? For example, will Toxapex change from a physically defensive set to a specially defensive set, and will Dragapult go from a mixed attacker to a purely special one?
9. What is your favorite returning mon?
10. I hope you all have a wonderful weekend and enjoy playing the new Crown Tundra DLC both in-game and on here :)

Ah, I completely overlooked this part of the thread while I was typing in my previous post.

1) I am definitely most excited to use Zapdos-Galar in the new meta. 125 Attack with 100 Speed isn't a joke paired with Defiant (as it pressurizes Defog users). Its signature move is nothing to laugh at as it guarantees an enemy's defense drop alongside hitting for 90BP. It also has other great physical STABs to make use of its attack stat such as Close Combat and Brave Bird, alongside the fact that it can run BU/Band sets.
Also I love the aesthetic of Zapdos-Galar, it looks like a roadrunner kek.

2) Definitely Zeraora, Gengar, and Volcarona. Zera just gets outshined by Tapu Koko in terms of being a pivot because and being a pivot was Zera's best niche. Koko sets up Electric Terrain and has dual STAB, while access to U-turn, so it is pretty much impossible to block Koko's pivoting if its running U-turn. however, I still think Zeraora would be OU as it retains its niche of blocking Volt Switch and still having a good Speed tier. It will definitely be worse from DLC 1 meta and there's a chance it drops. Gengar was already struggling in terms of usage last month and I can expect it to drop to UU(BL) because right now it just gets outsped by a lot of things in the meta. Spectrier also power creeps it in terms of a better ability, better speed tier, and better Special Attack. Power creep is real.

Volcarona suffers from no more HP Ground and now lacks a way to beat Heatran. This severely weakens its reliability as I am predicting SpDef Tran to have a really high usage because of how good that set is. Though, despite this flaw, Volcarona will remain OU, albeit it'll have lower usage than before.

3) I think Dracozolt is definitely going to benefit a lot, still uncertain on which mon is going to rise in viability ranking the most. Dracozolt definitely feels like it could be a solid B mon now though. It offers sand another sweeper with Sand Rush and Bolt Beak just hurts hence it also pairs well with Excadrill as Excadrill struggled against the bulky Flying type mons such as Mandibuzz and Corvi. LO Mixed is probably the set to go with Zolt. A shame it doesn't get any boosting moves i.e SD or DD.

4) I haven't used Drago yet because honestly, I couldn't fit it on a team yet. Eleki, though, has a nice niche of fast screens support with Rapid Spin, you can invest fully in Special Attack and get away with 216/228 Speed investment as it then outspeeds Scarf Gene at 216 Speed, and base 100s at +1 such as Volcarona. Though, while playing Eleki, it all comes down to predicting if the enemy ground will switch in so that you can safely double out or not. Definitely better than what I thought it'd be initially after looking at the movepool. I've talked about Zap-G earlier, so gonna talk about the other Galarian birds now. A shame Moltres-G doesn't Roost with Berserk, but I honestly think NP makes up for it. Not much thoughts on Articuno-G as I haven't used it yet. Both of these get hard walled by TTar.

6) Strongest offensive options in my opinion go like
Kyurem-Black, Naganadel, Urshifu, Genesect, Zapdos-G, Pheromosa, Landorus-I, Latios, Blaziken, Zygarde, Cinderace.
Though, I feel like all these will get banned soon except Urshifu, Zapdos-G, Latios, and maybe Cinderace. I am a bit iffy on whether Cinderace and Urshifu would be here in a stable meta after all the broken stuff is banned, but I guess we'll find out in due time.

7) Strongest defensive options go like
Blissey, Toxapex, Latias, Corvi, Heatran, Zygarde
The reason why I have placed Zygarde in both offense/defense is because like that Pokemon is quite disgusting. Both Sub/DD/Glare and Coil/Glare/Rest are disgusting to face off against. Thousand Arrows just hits everything and with the removal of HP Ice, this Pokemon is quite difficult to deal with, unless you're running something that can blow it apart in one go without letting it get a move up such as a Latios, Kyurem(-B), or Naganadel.

8) I feel like SubHex variants of Dragapult are going to die out in a stable meta when Tapu Fini's usage picks up more. Tapu Fini completely invalidates that set with its typing and ability, severely weakening SubHex Dragapult's effectiveness in the battle.

Cinderace now has more of a reason to run HJK so that it can break through Heatran. It is now forced to drop one of Pyro Ball, Sucker Punch, U-turn, HJK, or Gunk Shot on its sets now. Without HJK it suffers against Heatran and without Gunk, it suffers against Clefable and other Fairies, Pyro Ball is just a really strong move to hit neutrally and against grasses and steels (specifically Corvi and Skarm), and Sucker is just a nice priority move.

9) My favorite returning Pokemon is probably Heatran, I love its aesthetic and the utility it provides on teams. Definitely putting it on a lot of teams.