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The difference between Garmanitan and Zygarde is that with Zygarde, it's the in-battle transformation that's broken. You can't just unban Zen Garm because when it's over half health, it's regular Garm. It's the same problem with Mega Garchomp in past gens. You can't allow Mega Garchomp in UU because until it Mega Evolves, it's just regular Garchomp.
In-battle alternate forms are only tiered separately if the transformation is better.
I understand that, but regular Garm is not broken without G Tactics. So the transformation doesn't really matter as long as its ability is not G Tactics. So, you actually can just ban G Tactics, and allow regular Garm to roam free without it.
Also, they banned Arena Trap, but non-Arena Trap Dugtrio can still be used in lower tiers. G Tactics is literally only on one mon, so by the logic in Charmflash's announcement (e.g. it's not an ability that affects a larger variety of pokemon), it doesn't seem to need have a ban on G Darm altogether.
I understand that, but regular Garm is not broken without G Tactics. So the transformation doesn't really matter as long as its ability is not G Tactics. So, you actually can just ban G Tactics, and allow regular Garm to roam free without it.
A lot of Pokemon aren't broken without a specific thing. The fact that Gorilla Tactics is technically unique to Garm (I say technically because it's really just a shitty version of Huge Power) is of no consequence.
A lot of Pokemon aren't broken without a specific thing. The fact that Gorilla Tactics is technically unique to Garm (I say technically because it's really just a shitty version of Huge Power) is of no consequence.
Right, but my point is, Zygarde is not (as) broken without Power Construct, so it was banned. That is the "specific thing" that made it totally broken. So with this same logic, it would seem at last a discussion about G Darm would be had.
It's not at all comparable, you can choose to not mega-evolve Garchomp, while you don't get such a choice for G-Darm (and a regular Darm with no Gorilla Tactics is just a worse version of Urshifu, similar roles, way inferior damage, worse typing, worse bulk, doesnt ignore intimidate/protect, and whatnot). An ability giving you +50% damage or hp or whatever whether it's directly through stats or effects or through a shiny transformation is the exact same thing, it wouldn't make any difference if Cherrim simply gained its stats in the sun instead of transforming into overcast forme.
The correct reasoning was in the post below yours, however.
In my opinion, the Zygarde exception is in the wrong here, not G-Darm. There's no reason to make an exception for Zygarde. Either you ban the pokemon in its entirety or you don't ban it.
Right, but my point is, Zygarde is not (as) broken without Power Construct, so it was banned. That is the "specific thing" that made it totally broken. So with this same logic, it would seem at last a discussion about G Darm would be had.
That's not how Smogon rolls. To use examples from previous gens, Blaziken without Speed Boost, Aegislash without King's Shield, Zygarde without Thousand Arrows, and Greninja without Protean were never on the table.
It's not at all comparable, you can choose to not mega-evolve Garchomp, while a regular Darm with no Gorilla Tactics is just a worse version of Urshifu.
They're comparable in the sense that you can't have Mega Garchomp or Zen Darm without the regular forms. In-battle form changes in general work like this. Garchomp is just the most prominent example.
In any case, this has nothing to do with metagame discussion, so we should all stop talking about this here.
I understand that, but regular Garm is not broken without G Tactics. So the transformation doesn't really matter as long as its ability is not G Tactics. So, you actually can just ban G Tactics, and allow regular Garm to roam free without it.
Also, they banned Arena Trap, but non-Arena Trap Dugtrio can still be used in lower tiers. G Tactics is literally only on one mon, so by the logic in Charmflash's announcement (e.g. it's not an ability that affects a larger variety of pokemon), it doesn't seem to need have a ban on G Darm altogether.
I had similar thoughts earlier this year regarding the Cinderace suspect test and why Liberio wasn't being banned instead and a few people filled me in on why this isn't the case in this post and the couple of posts following it: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/simple-questions-simple-answers-thread.3656259/post-8606849
I especially recommend reading Zarels post as it is very insightful into the philosophy behind Smogons tiering, which essentially comes down to the idea that a mon should be judged as a whole, including all their abilities and moves, so a mon will be banned based on its totality rather than banning a specifically overpowered aspect. The only exception to this are things that are uncompetitive, such as evasion moves and trapping abilities. Those are banned due to being actively uncompetitive and either making the game entirely rng in the case of evasion boosting moves, or removing a key aspect of the game in switching with respect to trapping abilities. Copy pasting from a dm between Finchinator and myself he said:
"fwiw, there are not even complex bans on trapping and evasion (anymore -- there used to be, but we undid the complexities over the generations due to the inconsistency it had with the tiering policy). now we just outright ban evasion moves and abilities/trapping abilities like atrap and stag.
unless an ability or move is similarly uncompetitive (emphasis on uncompetitive, not broken), then we will likely focus on the pokemon. but yes, when it comes to something like cinderace, we want to focus on the pokemon to avoid the slippery slope or the derailing of our tiering practices."
tl:dr Smogon bans mons based on their entirety, not just banning an overpowered aspect. Also read Zarels post
I think you are missing my point. I wasn't saying "let's unban Darmanitan-G right now peeps!" I was asking if there was any discussion about unbanning it without Gorilla Tactics, at the time that the decision was made to unban Zygarde w/o Power Construct, since it is a very similar situation. While I understand that it is not the literal exact same thing, you can't really deny that it's not similar, and I think an open discussion on the matter is important if it means something can get a new life somewhere in the metagame.
EDIT: This wasn't directed at the post above me (Hobie) I actually appreciate that post very much, ty.
I think you are missing my point. I wasn't saying "let's unban Darmanitan-G right now peeps!" I was asking if there was any discussion about unbanning it without Gorilla Tactics, at the time that the decision was made to unban Zygarde w/o Power Construct, since it is a very similar situation. While I understand that it is not the literal exact same thing, you can't really deny that it's not similar, and I think an open discussion on the matter is important if it means something can get a new life somewhere in the metagame.
EDIT: This wasn't directed at the post above me (Hobie) I actually appreciate that post very much, ty.
Also, I remember asking this question around July or something like that. Basically, gorilla tactic itself isn’t broken, but rather combined with Gdarms stats and move pool make it broken. Smogon only bans the ability if the ability itself is broken, like trapping or moody. Gorilla tactics is a worse version of huge power, yet it’s on a powerful or decent mon without it and that’s why Gdarm is banned over gorilla tactics
I think you are missing my point. I wasn't saying "let's unban Darmanitan-G right now peeps!" I was asking if there was any discussion about unbanning it without Gorilla Tactics, at the time that the decision was made to unban Zygarde w/o Power Construct, since it is a very similar situation. While I understand that it is not the literal exact same thing, you can't really deny that it's not similar, and I think an open discussion on the matter is important if it means something can get a new life somewhere in the metagame.
EDIT: This wasn't directed at the post above me (Hobie) I actually appreciate that post very much, ty.
There was an incessant back and forth about this when the original decision was made. For what it's worth I agree this is an inconsistency. But I think the justification was that Zygarde-C is a distinct form. If this is seen as an inconsistency then the clear choice would be to ban Zygarde in its entirety, which may be happening soon anyway.
This is unfortunately not a "similar" case with Zygarde's Power Construct ban. Treating this as such due to being a unique ability ban doesn't mean they look like each other, because of the ban mentality behind each being different. I hope I can clarify some points.
Was there any discussion at all in considering the unbanning of Darmanitan-Galar w/ Zen Mode? I mean, since Zygarde w/ Aura Break was unbanned, but Power Construct stayed banned, it seems like the same concept. And I don't think Darmanitan-G w/ Zen Mode is anywhere nearly as close as broken as Zygarde is. It's just a fun gimmick that nobody is allowed to use anywhere because the entire mon is banned.
The reason why Galarian Darmanitan was banned is that the combination of Gorilla Tactics and Galarian Darmanitan were broken together. You stated yourself that non-Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan isn't that problem which I would agree on. But assuming that Gorilla Tactics is the only thing that makes Darmanitan broken is an unfair assumption. We already have 2 better abilities in Huge Power and Pure Power, which does the same thing even better without any restrictions. Banning Gorilla Tactics because of that is violating the tiering policy, as you are banning a completely healthy ability that has far better alternatives just to use a "fun gimmick". Galar Darmanitan has good qualities, Gorilla Tactics was a good buff, therefore the broken combination of the two is banned.
Also, they banned Arena Trap, but non-Arena Trap Dugtrio can still be used in lower tiers. G Tactics is literally only on one mon, so by the logic in Charmflash's announcement (e.g. it's not an ability that affects a larger variety of pokemon), it doesn't seem to need have a ban on G Darm altogether.
Yet again, the problem here is we cannot just assume Gorilla Tactics is broken when we have not one but two abilities that are objectively better than it. Arena Trap and Shadow Tag are banned universally because eventually, people have found ways to abuse it with every Pokemon that had access to it. Even inarguably crapmons like Diglett and Trapinch have seen usage, and here's a fun replay for you to watch, to understand its potential.
I especially recommend reading Zarels post as it is very insightful into the philosophy behind Smogons tiering, which essentially comes down to the idea that a mon should be judged as a whole, including all their abilities and moves, so a mon will be banned based on its totality rather than banning a specifically overpowered aspect. The only exception to this are things that are uncompetitive, such as evasion moves and trapping abilities. Those are banned due to being actively uncompetitive and either making the game entirely rng in the case of evasion boosting moves or removing a key aspect of the game in switching with respect to trapping abilities.
This explains my points above very well and shows that the Galarian Darmanitan ban was a result of consistent tiering. It was evaluated as a whole and deemed broken.
I was asking if there was any discussion about unbanning it without Gorilla Tactics, at the time that the decision was made to unban Zygarde w/o Power Construct, since it is a very similar situation. While I understand that it is not the literal exact same thing, you can't really deny that it's not similar, and I think an open discussion on the matter is important if it means something can get a new life somewhere in the metagame.
Another thing that needs mention here on Power Construct's ban is that the ability enabled a whole new Pokemon with different Stats. Since it is an entirely different Pokemon, that different Pokemon deserves its very own evaluation which can be seen as the case here. Zygarde Complete is broken, so there was no need to keep Power Construct unbanned. If anything it makes things easier as you cant choose the ability in your teambuilder. (Similar cases to these are forme bans and mega stone bans.)
To sum it up;
- Power Construct is broken on every Pokemon that has access to it.
- Galarian Darmanitan is broken when it's combined with Gorilla Tactics, but neither are broken individually.
Ok, I see people complaining a lot about Zygarde, so I will try to share my own opinion about it and all the possible counterplay to its most common and "broken" set.
Back prior to this DLC I thought that Zygarde was healthy in this meta, but gave it the benefit of the doubt, since no HP Ice made it better this Gen. After playing for a week in both ladder and Stour (where I got to Semis yesterday before being destroyed by an actual broken Mon, Magearna), I have come to the conclusion that Zygarde is not broken at all and the meta can adapt to it if players stop being lazy and build the same teams again and again.
My main arguments are:
-It lacks immediate power, even with Band or DD. It does not 2HKO many walls and does not OHKO many offensive threats. You most likely will have enough time to act and prevent Zygarde sweeping you.
-If properly prepared for, it does not have many set-up oportunities. Ice moves and Toxic are not hard to fit in your team. And yes, Toxic on offensive Mons is still good, look at Heatran if you don,t believe.
-As I said before, there are enough COMMON Mons to stop Zygarde. And way more uncommon ones.
-While it is true that it can fit moveslots to beat almost all its checks, the same is true for Mons like Heatran, Clefable and Garchomp, and no one is thinking those are broken.
For the purpose of the below information (the checks), I will consider the following statement:
-While it is true that Zygarde only needs 1 move to work, it is not true that it needs only 1 to break the meta. It needs at least 2, Thousand Arrows and Coil. If Zygarde didn,t learn Coil, we wouldn,t be having this conversation in first place, nobody would even think Coiless Zygarde is opresive.
-As a result, I don,t think I need to justify the balance of Band and DD sets, those have never been the problem. The one problematic set is the following one: Thousand Arrows/Coil/Glare (sometimes Toxic), Substitute. So, this is the main set I will now show the counterplay for.
Lets start with currently OU Mons: Buzzwole: Fully stops ANY Zygarde that does not have Toxic. And lets not pretend its a meme Mon, it never has been. Apart from Zygarde it checks or counters Urshifu, Kartana, Garchomp, Excadrill, Landorus-T, Melmetal and Tyranitar among others. Buzzwole is a legit OU defensive backbone that should be used way more than it is. Clefable: Zygarde needs to hax this one with Glare in order to win. And that is if Clefable is Magic Guard and not Unaware, which ignores the boosts. As a reminder, Unaware Clef gained access to Softboiled in this DLC, so all it takes is this: 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 85-102 (21.5 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery . Of course, it is more vulnerable to Toxic now, but Toxic is less common than Glare and Clefable happens to learn Aromatherapy. Unaware Clefable will need cleric support, either by itself or by a partner, regardless of Zygarde's presence in the meta. Dragapult: Offensive check that bypasses Substitute. Of course, if you switch Dragapult directly into Zygarde it will get crippled or damaged. The idea would be to use Teleport or a slower U-Turn with other Mon to safely bring Pult to the field. Clefable, Mandibuzz, Blissey, Slowbro, Pelipper, there are many pivots for the job, choose your own. Kommo-o: Clanging Scales ignore Sub. Like with Pult, you can use a slow pivot to bring it safely. Has enough bulk to switch itself, but hates Status. Glastrier: I have doubts this stays OU, but I have seen it working in some teams and it does learn Icicle Spear. With 0 bulk, Zygarde already does almost no damage: 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 78-93 (22.8 - 27.2%) -- 49.2% chance to 4HKO . So, with Icicle Spear, the ice horse eventually defeats Zygarde. I had not tried this Mon yet, so I can,t say for now what its best set and teammates are, but it seems legit as a powerful Zygarde check that does more things other than check Zygarde. Kyurem-B: It will get crippled by para, but with DD + Spear + Roost, it will end up beating Zygarde eventually. This doesn,t matter much though, unlike with Zygarde, I do consider there is not enough counterplay to Kyu-B (Scizor, Melmetal, Avalugg and Jirachi, can,t think more reliable checks), so it will likely get banned. Kyurem: However, the same applies to regular Kyurem. It does not like getting para'd but it will eventually beat Zygarde if it has Roost, doesn,t matter if its physical or special. Hippowdon: While it doesn,t beat Zygarde itself (set-up fodder), it can use Whirlwind to phaze it out. It dislikes the not so common Toxic, but doesn,t care about the paralisis at all. If you really want to beat Zygarde with Hippowdon, you can use Curse + Ice Fang, which I do consider a legit (albeit suboptimal) set, since it enables SDef Hippo to beat shit like Clefable, Reuniclus, Zapdos or Corviknight. Mew: Its bulky, it learns Ice Beam and it has Syncronoize to cripple Zygarde with its own status. Nothing more needs to be said, Mew is established as a good Mon already, although is more common as a lead on HO (where Zygarde won,t be boosting on it either). Pheromosa: I speak here about a band set with Triple Axel. Like Dragapult, it can,t switch directly (although it does resist ground), but you can use a slow pivot to help. Lets suppose Zygarde predicts correctly and uses 2 Coils instead of subbing while you switch and Teleport/U-turn. This happens: 252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. +2 248 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 396-468 (94.5 - 111.6%) -- approx. 81.3% chance to OHKO . This is the absolute worst case scenario (except the one in which Pheromosa misses), normally Zygarde will be with a Sub and only at +1, it can also be at +0 with a Sub or +1 without. Zygarde is checked well by band Pheromosa, which is a set that can work for other reasons in OU too. Landorus-T: BU + Rest beats Zygarde unless crit. Of course, you might think this is a suboptimal set... and you will be right. However, its still a Landorus-T and it will still offer utility outside of Zygarde with this set. This is called adaptation and I fail to see how is this diferent from Volcarona using Psychic for only 1 Mon or Corviknight using Shed Shell for only one Mon. Tangrowth: 0 SpA Tangrowth Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 105-124 (25 - 29.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery . Again, this is called adaptation. Tangrowth already has 4 slots syndrome, Zygarde doesn,t change that much. Tapu-Bulu: BU loses to Toxic, but if Zygarde uses Glare, it will outstall it due to paralisis. Unless crit, of course. Tapu-Fini: This now learns Rest after its terrain ends. It also learns Drain Kiss and Iron Defense. If you need, you can use it as your Zygarde check.
So, 14 Mons looking at OU alone. Some are better, some are shakier, but all work to an extent as Zygarde checks. Now lets get to my favourite part of the post, Eeveetechnology! Non-OU Mons that have niches in OU as Zygarde checks... and not only as Zygarde checks. Articuno: Technically this is still OU, but it certainly won,t be soon. Has enough bulk, Freeze Dry to do damage, Heal Bell and Pressure to stall both Status and Thousand Arrows. Outside of checking Zygarde it can be used either as a Defoguer (Hippo, Clef, defensive Chomp, non-SE Lando and non-Gyro Ferro get stalled or as a check to some Mons with Haze (Suicune and Clefable mainly). Also checks Lando-I, which doesn,t mean much, since this one is for sure getting banned. Cresselia: Also OU, but not for long. Titanic bulk and learns IB. Works as a wall and as a Trick Roomer. Checks Lando-I too, also Chomp and Lando-T. Weavile: Like Pheromosa, it learns Triple Axel and can come in via U-Turn or Teleport. 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. +2 248 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 480-576 (114.5 - 137.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO . This, like with Pheromosa is worst case scenario outside of misses. Works as a niche wallbreaker in OU. Celebi: Calm Mind + Recover works, it even has Natural Cure to heal the status. I admit it though, few reasons to run it in OU outside of Zygarde. Cloyster: Doesn,t like paralisis, but can use Zygarde as a set-up fodder in order to sweep the opposing team. Takes few damage from Thousand Arrows. Mamoswine: Similar to Pheromosa and Weavile, although a bit more unreliable due to Icicle Spear having the option to only hit twice. With 3 hits, this happens: 252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. +2 248 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 360-432 (85.9 - 103.1%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO . I think is enough and this has been used succesfully in OU before Zygarde came. Noivern: Bad Dragapult, but has Roost. Slowbro: Good check with IB. One of the best Mons for teleporting to Pheromosa or Dragapult. Works as Lando, Drill and Chomp check to. Tsareena: One of the ugliest Mons to exist, but resists ground and has Triple Axel. Pretty sure it has other uses in OU, but hadn,t explored it, since its way too ugly. Sylveon: Has Pixilate Hyper Voice to bypass Sub. I admit it, this one does not have many reasons to use over Clefable. Zarude: This Mon is designed to counter almost all Zygarde variants. Resists Ground, has BU to boost alongside Zygarde, heals Status with Jungle Healing and even can ignore Zygarde's boosts with Darkest Lariat. Outside of Zygarde, it checks other dangerous Mons like Crawdaunt, Garchomp or Spectrier. Exeggutor-Alola: Works in TR team with Harvest + Sitrus Berry. Resists Arrows, breaks Sub (more than 50% of the time, and that is if Zygarde is fully invested in Sdef), kills Zygarde with DM. Abomasnow: Unfortunately lost its Mega (was one of the best Zygarde checks last Gen), but still works as Hail setter, especially now that Arctozolt and Arctowish can be a thing, not just Sandslash. Sandslash-Alola, Arctozolt and Arctowish: Viable Hail sweepers if you bring them via Teleport or U-Turn. Whimsicott: Resists Arrows, can cripple Zygarde with Encore, Taunt, Knock, etc. Can support team with Tailwind, pivots with U-Turn, Defogs. The one bad thing is that it can,t do everything at once. Avalugg: Never underestimate this guy, it has titanic bulk, it has recover and it will beat Zygarde with Icicle Spear. 3 hits have a chance to break a Sub of even +6 Zygarde while +6 Zygarde can,t always OHKO. Avalugg also checks Lando-T and Chomp among others and always spins on Ferro, Hippo and Lando-T, among others (of course, provided they don,t have Toxic). Shedinja: Fully walls every Zygarde that does not have Toxic. Of course, using this as your ONLY Zygarde check is a recipe for disaster. Shiinotic: Is this a bad Bulu/Amoonguss? It is not. Unlike them, Shiinotic will always break Zygarde's Sub with Moonblast. It does not only work for Zygarde, since it has Spore, punishes U-Turn with Effect Spore, heals with Strength Sap and checks dangerous threats like Lando-T, Chomp, (non-Acro) Rillaboom, Watershifu and Crawdaunt. Quagsire and Pyukumuku: Unaware goes, brr.
So, plenty of material to work with, most of which have more niches that are not checking Zygarde. The last part of my post will consist of methods of preventing Zygarde to switch-in safely or to boost in your Mons:
-Toxic. This one is no brainer. If your Rotom-H, Aegislash or Heatran Toxic Zygarde on the switch, it destroys it unless it has Rest (which is VERY viable, but not common enough).
-WoW. Same as above, doesn,t actually kill Zygarde but cripples it a lot.
-Knock/Trick. Again, non rest Zygarde needs the lefties. It therefore can,t switch directly into Pex, Ferro, Growth or Lando.
-Dragon Pulse Heatran. There are more dragons in the meta for which this move is useful if you won,t want to use Toxic.
-Ice Beam Blissey. Works for other grounds too. You are better teleporting away to an offensive check though.
-Roar/Whirlwind. Uncommon moves on Mandibuzz or Zapdos, but can work in a pinch. Of course, work against other sweepers too.
-Regular offensive pressure. If Zygarde takes too much damage, it won,t be sweeping anytime soon.
So, this is it. You might agree with my arguments or not, but before saying "Zygarde broken", try to adapt your teams to it, it isn,t very different to adapt them to Lando-T, Heatran or Clefable. In my opinion there is more than enough counterplay to Zygarde for it not deserving the banhammer, just think outside the box! Have a nice Eeve... morning, its still morning here. I need to find new jokes, gdi...
fwiw, i see the power construct ban very similar to any mega ban. power construct effectively unleashes a completely new pokemon in a battle in the same vein a mega evolution item does. in the mega evolution case we dont eliminate the base of the pokemon because its clearly not broken whereas the resulting pokemon with the mega item is. the power construct ban is essentially the same thing. now extend this scenario to galarian darmanitan which is the inverse: the base pokemon is broken as shit while the alternate is not. the easiest thing to do here, policy wise, is to eliminate the base pokemon in order to keep everything clean since at the end of the day, we try our best to tier pokemon in their entirety (and potential abilities/items unleashing completely new pokemon).
regarding the overall meta, zygarde has got to go because its so versatile in its set which have different counters. you cannot switch in a buzzwole on zygarde unless you want to get toxic'd in the face. its kinda similar to genesect to me in that perspective
Oh gee I do wonder how many do. And on smart player's teams, I wonder how many that don't have teammates that exploit it. This is precisely the issue with Zygarde: it picks its own checks and counters based on what the team can handle.
This is very true, but unfortunately Dragapult loses to DD sets. Also, physical Dragapult runs Clear Body, so it has to be the Mixed Pivot set. And even assuming it is Coil, Dragon Tail can be the reply if Dragapult fails to KO:
68 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. +1 12 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 156-184 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- approx. 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 216+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragapult: 277-327 (87.3 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+1 216+ Atk Zygarde Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragapult: 372-438 (117.3 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The difference between this and other adaptation is not only is it garbage, it actually stops Lando-T doing what i it's meant to do and compromises it. It still loses to Dragon Tail lol.
There's a difference between adaption and having run moves that are useless against all other mons. Also Tang is infamous for getting Toxic stalled by Zygarde.
So it has to set there for 5 turns before it can heal.... And then it's useless while healing...
Next time can we just start with all these stupid mons that get banned every iteration of OU in Ubers and have suspects to bring them down? Thanks.
Ok, I see people complaining a lot about Zygarde, so I will try to share my own opinion about it and all the possible counterplay to its most common and "broken" set.
Back prior to this DLC I thought that Zygarde was healthy in this meta, but gave it the benefit of the doubt, since no HP Ice made it better this Gen. After playing for a week in both ladder and Stour (where I got to Semis yesterday before being destroyed by an actual broken Mon, Magearna), I have come to the conclusion that Zygarde is not broken at all and the meta can adapt to it if players stop being lazy and build the same teams again and again.
My main arguments are:
-It lacks immediate power, even with Band or DD. It does not 2HKO many walls and does not OHKO many offensive threats. You most likely will have enough time to act and prevent Zygarde sweeping you.
-If properly prepared for, it does not have many set-up oportunities. Ice moves and Toxic are not hard to fit in your team. And yes, Toxic on offensive Mons is still good, look at Heatran if you don,t believe.
-As I said before, there are enough COMMON Mons to stop Zygarde. And way more uncommon ones.
-While it is true that it can fit moveslots to beat almost all its checks, the same is true for Mons like Heatran, Clefable and Garchomp, and no one is thinking those are broken.
For the purpose of the below information (the checks), I will consider the following statement:
-While it is true that Zygarde only needs 1 move to work, it is not true that it needs only 1 to break the meta. It needs at least 2, Thousand Arrows and Coil. If Zygarde didn,t learn Coil, we wouldn,t be having this conversation in first place, nobody would even think Coiless Zygarde is opresive.
-As a result, I don,t think I need to justify the balance of Band and DD sets, those have never been the problem. The one problematic set is the following one: Thousand Arrows/Coil/Glare (sometimes Toxic), Substitute. So, this is the main set I will now show the counterplay for.
Lets start with currently OU Mons: Buzzwole: Fully stops ANY Zygarde that does not have Toxic. And lets not pretend its a meme Mon, it never has been. Apart from Zygarde it checks or counters Urshifu, Kartana, Garchomp, Excadrill, Landorus-T, Melmetal and Tyranitar among others. Buzzwole is a legit OU defensive backbone that should be used way more than it is. Clefable: Zygarde needs to hax this one with Glare in order to win. And that is if Clefable is Magic Guard and not Unaware, which ignores the boosts. As a reminder, Unaware Clef gained access to Softboiled in this DLC, so all it takes is this: 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 85-102 (21.5 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery . Of course, it is more vulnerable to Toxic now, but Toxic is less common than Glare and Clefable happens to learn Aromatherapy. Unaware Clefable will need cleric support, either by itself or by a partner, regardless of Zygarde's presence in the meta. Dragapult: Offensive check that bypasses Substitute. Of course, if you switch Dragapult directly into Zygarde it will get crippled or damaged. The idea would be to use Teleport or a slower U-Turn with other Mon to safely bring Pult to the field. Clefable, Mandibuzz, Blissey, Slowbro, Pelipper, there are many pivots for the job, choose your own. Kommo-o: Clanging Scales ignore Sub. Like with Pult, you can use a slow pivot to bring it safely. Has enough bulk to switch itself, but hates Status. Glastrier: I have doubts this stays OU, but I have seen it working in some teams and it does learn Icicle Spear. With 0 bulk, Zygarde already does almost no damage: 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 78-93 (22.8 - 27.2%) -- 49.2% chance to 4HKO . So, with Icicle Spear, the ice horse eventually defeats Zygarde. I had not tried this Mon yet, so I can,t say for now what its best set and teammates are, but it seems legit as a powerful Zygarde check that does more things other than check Zygarde. Kyurem-B: It will get crippled by para, but with DD + Spear + Roost, it will end up beating Zygarde eventually. This doesn,t matter much though, unlike with Zygarde, I do consider there is not enough counterplay to Kyu-B (Scizor, Melmetal, Avalugg and Jirachi, can,t think more reliable checks), so it will likely get banned. Kyurem: However, the same applies to regular Kyurem. It does not like getting para'd but it will eventually beat Zygarde if it has Roost, doesn,t matter if its physical or special. Hippowdon: While it doesn,t beat Zygarde itself (set-up fodder), it can use Whirlwind to phaze it out. It dislikes the not so common Toxic, but doesn,t care about the paralisis at all. If you really want to beat Zygarde with Hippowdon, you can use Curse + Ice Fang, which I do consider a legit (albeit suboptimal) set, since it enables SDef Hippo to beat shit like Clefable, Reuniclus, Zapdos or Corviknight. Mew: Its bulky, it learns Ice Beam and it has Syncronoize to cripple Zygarde with its own status. Nothing more needs to be said, Mew is established as a good Mon already, although is more common as a lead on HO (where Zygarde won,t be boosting on it either). Pheromosa: I speak here about a band set with Triple Axel. Like Dragapult, it can,t switch directly (although it does resist ground), but you can use a slow pivot to help. Lets suppose Zygarde predicts correctly and uses 2 Coils instead of subbing while you switch and Teleport/U-turn. This happens: 252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. +2 248 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 396-468 (94.5 - 111.6%) -- approx. 81.3% chance to OHKO . This is the absolute worst case scenario (except the one in which Pheromosa misses), normally Zygarde will be with a Sub and only at +1, it can also be at +0 with a Sub or +1 without. Zygarde is checked well by band Pheromosa, which is a set that can work for other reasons in OU too. Landorus-T: BU + Rest beats Zygarde unless crit. Of course, you might think this is a suboptimal set... and you will be right. However, its still a Landorus-T and it will still offer utility outside of Zygarde with this set. This is called adaptation and I fail to see how is this diferent from Volcarona using Psychic for only 1 Mon or Corviknight using Shed Shell for only one Mon. Tangrowth: 0 SpA Tangrowth Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 105-124 (25 - 29.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery . Again, this is called adaptation. Tangrowth already has 4 slots syndrome, Zygarde doesn,t change that much. Tapu-Bulu: BU loses to Toxic, but if Zygarde uses Glare, it will outstall it due to paralisis. Unless crit, of course. Tapu-Fini: This now learns Rest after its terrain ends. It also learns Drain Kiss and Iron Defense. If you need, you can use it as your Zygarde check.
So, 14 Mons looking at OU alone. Some are better, some are shakier, but all work to an extent as Zygarde checks. Now lets get to my favourite part of the post, Eeveetechnology! Non-OU Mons that have niches in OU as Zygarde checks... and not only as Zygarde checks. Articuno: Technically this is still OU, but it certainly won,t be soon. Has enough bulk, Freeze Dry to do damage, Heal Bell and Pressure to stall both Status and Thousand Arrows. Outside of checking Zygarde it can be used either as a Defoguer (Hippo, Clef, defensive Chomp, non-SE Lando and non-Gyro Ferro get stalled or as a check to some Mons with Haze (Suicune and Clefable mainly). Also checks Lando-I, which doesn,t mean much, since this one is for sure getting banned. Cresselia: Also OU, but not for long. Titanic bulk and learns IB. Works as a wall and as a Trick Roomer. Checks Lando-I too, also Chomp and Lando-T. Weavile: Like Pheromosa, it learns Triple Axel and can come in via U-Turn or Teleport. 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. +2 248 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 480-576 (114.5 - 137.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO . This, like with Pheromosa is worst case scenario outside of misses. Works as a niche wallbreaker in OU. Celebi: Calm Mind + Recover works, it even has Natural Cure to heal the status. I admit it though, few reasons to run it in OU outside of Zygarde. Cloyster: Doesn,t like paralisis, but can use Zygarde as a set-up fodder in order to sweep the opposing team. Takes few damage from Thousand Arrows. Mamoswine: Similar to Pheromosa and Weavile, although a bit more unreliable due to Icicle Spear having the option to only hit twice. With 3 hits, this happens: 252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. +2 248 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 360-432 (85.9 - 103.1%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO . I think is enough and this has been used succesfully in OU before Zygarde came. Noivern: Bad Dragapult, but has Roost. Slowbro: Good check with IB. One of the best Mons for teleporting to Pheromosa or Dragapult. Works as Lando, Drill and Chomp check to. Tsareena: One of the ugliest Mons to exist, but resists ground and has Triple Axel. Pretty sure it has other uses in OU, but hadn,t explored it, since its way too ugly. Sylveon: Has Pixilate Hyper Voice to bypass Sub. I admit it, this one does not have many reasons to use over Clefable. Zarude: This Mon is designed to counter almost all Zygarde variants. Resists Ground, has BU to boost alongside Zygarde, heals Status with Jungle Healing and even can ignore Zygarde's boosts with Darkest Lariat. Outside of Zygarde, it checks other dangerous Mons like Crawdaunt, Garchomp or Spectrier. Exeggutor-Alola: Works in TR team with Harvest + Sitrus Berry. Resists Arrows, breaks Sub (more than 50% of the time, and that is if Zygarde is fully invested in Sdef), kills Zygarde with DM. Abomasnow: Unfortunately lost its Mega (was one of the best Zygarde checks last Gen), but still works as Hail setter, especially now that Arctozolt and Arctowish can be a thing, not just Sandslash. Sandslash-Alola, Arctozolt and Arctowish: Viable Hail sweepers if you bring them via Teleport or U-Turn. Whimsicott: Resists Arrows, can cripple Zygarde with Encore, Taunt, Knock, etc. Can support team with Tailwind, pivots with U-Turn, Defogs. The one bad thing is that it can,t do everything at once. Avalugg: Never underestimate this guy, it has titanic bulk, it has recover and it will beat Zygarde with Icicle Spear. 3 hits have a chance to break a Sub of even +6 Zygarde while +6 Zygarde can,t always OHKO. Avalugg also checks Lando-T and Chomp among others and always spins on Ferro, Hippo and Lando-T, among others (of course, provided they don,t have Toxic). Shedinja: Fully walls every Zygarde that does not have Toxic. Of course, using this as your ONLY Zygarde check is a recipe for disaster. Shiinotic: Is this a bad Bulu/Amoonguss? It is not. Unlike them, Shiinotic will always break Zygarde's Sub with Moonblast. It does not only work for Zygarde, since it has Spore, punishes U-Turn with Effect Spore, heals with Strength Sap and checks dangerous threats like Lando-T, Chomp, (non-Acro) Rillaboom, Watershifu and Crawdaunt. Quagsire and Pyukumuku: Unaware goes, brr.
So, plenty of material to work with, most of which have more niches that are not checking Zygarde. The last part of my post will consist of methods of preventing Zygarde to switch-in safely or to boost in your Mons:
-Toxic. This one is no brainer. If your Rotom-H, Aegislash or Heatran Toxic Zygarde on the switch, it destroys it unless it has Rest (which is VERY viable, but not common enough).
-WoW. Same as above, doesn,t actually kill Zygarde but cripples it a lot.
-Knock/Trick. Again, non rest Zygarde needs the lefties. It therefore can,t switch directly into Pex, Ferro, Growth or Lando.
-Dragon Pulse Heatran. There are more dragons in the meta for which this move is useful if you won,t want to use Toxic.
-Ice Beam Blissey. Works for other grounds too. You are better teleporting away to an offensive check though.
-Roar/Whirlwind. Uncommon moves on Mandibuzz or Zapdos, but can work in a pinch. Of course, work against other sweepers too.
-Regular offensive pressure. If Zygarde takes too much damage, it won,t be sweeping anytime soon.
So, this is it. You might agree with my arguments or not, but before saying "Zygarde broken", try to adapt your teams to it, it isn,t very different to adapt them to Lando-T, Heatran or Clefable. In my opinion there is more than enough counterplay to Zygarde for it not deserving the banhammer, just think outside the box! Have a nice Eeve... morning, its still morning here. I need to find new jokes, gdi...
I believe your misunderstanding why people believe Zygarde to be too much for OU. It’s not the fact that it can 2HKO everything in OU, it’s a combination of attributes like Thousand Arrows’ spammability, it’s versatile movepool, and the fact that it is so damn bulky, not to the level of Pex but still. Due to all of these traits it can pretty much pick it’s checks and counters. Yes each set has its own checks/counters, but due to how TArrows frees up so much space for moves, it can fit almost anything on any of its sets to cover one or more of it’s checks/counters, and if it’s not on an HO team you won’t know what set it is until it throws out any move that isn’t TArrows.
Buzzwole: Buzz is a fringe option rn and gets Glare’d or Toxic’d.
Clefable: Clef is prob our best answer rn, but even then if can be para’d by Glare or 2HKOd by Band.
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Unaware Clef loses to Toxic.
Dragapult: It’s a check, but it won’t switch like to switch into Band or Toxic.
Kommo-o: Kommo’s most common set is defensive Rocks/BP/EQ/Taunt or Toxic. Not to mention its easy to wear down, and loses to Coil, Toxic, Glare, and Outrage.
Glastrier: Loses to Band Iron Tail and/or Toxic on setup sets.
Kyurem-B: Gets crippled by Glare like you said, but it also doesn’t want to get hit by a Band Outrage or even TArrows.
Kyurem: (Look at Kyurem-B)
Hippowdon: Gets crippled by Toxic and loses to Coil sets if it doesn’t have Roar/Whirlwind.
Mew: Mew is only ever really a spikes lead.
Pheromosa: It checks setup sets but good luck getting it in on Zygarde without getting Glare’d or hit by Band.
Landorus-T: Who tf is running BU rest over SD?
Tangrowth: Good luck if you get Toxic’d.
Tapu Bulu: Rarely uses BU over SD. 2HKOd by Band Iron Tail and loses to Toxic/Glare.
Tapu Fini: Another decent answer, but eventually gets worn down in a game so it’s not a good long term answer. Especially to Banded Zygarde.
Articuno: 2HKOd by Band Iron Tail, still beats Heal Bell sets cause Toxic has more pp, and if it loses it HDB its a wrap.
Cresselia: Loses to Toxic. Moonlight’s 8pp means it won’t be a good long term answer.
Weavile: (See Pheromosa)
Celebi: Way to much of a fringe option, and can lose to Band.
Cloyster: Gets crippled. Oh and good luck fitting it on a team that isn’t HO.
Mamoswine/Noivern: (See Pheromosa again)
Slowbro: Can’t break Zygarde’s sub without Ice Beam which it rarely runs, and still loses to Toxic.
Tsareena: No one and their mother runs Tsareena in any serious team as long as Bulu/Rilla/Ferro/and Tang exist. (Loses to Band and Toxic on setup variants)
Sylveon: 2HKOd by TArrows and crippled by Toxic.
Zarude: Are only true answer to setup sets but still loses to Band Outrage.
Exeggutor-A: Not viable in OU. Still gets OHKOd by Outrage or crippled by Toxic. Try again.
Abomasnow: Easily crippled, loses to Toxic, also not viable. Try again.
A-Sandslash/Hail abusers: Not viable in OU.
Whimsicott: Not viable in OU, still gets OHKOd by Iron Tail.
Avalugg: Who tf is running Avalugg in late 2020?
Shedinja: Crippled by Toxic and only fits on stall.
Shiinotic: Loses to Toxic and 2HKOd by Band Iron Tail. Also outclassed by Amoonguss and Bulu who checks everything Shitnotic does but is also good.
Quagsire/Pyukumuku: Only seen on stall and still crippled by Toxic.
As far as other counterplay that you mentioned.
No smart player is gonna mindlessly switch their Zygarde into Tran or Heattom as Toxic is common on those mons. Most Aegi are offensive, and don’t have room for Toxic. Also Zygarde is not gonna wanna swap into Specs Shadow Ball. Again smart players know not to mindlessly swap into a Pex and get Scald burnt. Pex/Ferro/Lando/Tang lose to Sub-Coil Zygarde 1v1 and again, no smart player will let their Zygarde be crippled. Even if it gets crippled it can still spread para and Toxic for other teammates. Tran and Blissey never run DPulse and Ice Beam there is simply not enough room for these options. Zapdos and Mandi are barely ever gonna have room for phazing moves.
Oh gee I do wonder how many do. And on smart player's teams, I wonder how many that don't have teammates that exploit it. This is precisely the issue with Zygarde: it picks its own checks and counters based on what the team can handle.
Nope, loses to Iron Tail on Coil sets, and Unaware loses to Toxic.
This is very true, but unfortunately Dragapult loses to DD sets. Also, physical Dragapult runs Clear Body, so it has to be the Mixed Pivot set. And even assuming it is Coil, Dragon Tail can be the reply if Dragapult fails to KO:
68 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. +1 12 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 156-184 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- approx. 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 216+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragapult: 277-327 (87.3 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+1 216+ Atk Zygarde Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragapult: 372-438 (117.3 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Clanging Scales is also not used on Kommo-o's best set, which is Defensive Stealth Rock. And Zygarde is faster.
Again, loses to Iron Tail sets. Is also slow AF, so Zygarde can cripple it then switch out.
Again loses to Iron Tail, and special sets lose to Dragon Tail.
Yep, that's setup bait for any Dragon Tail set.
Mew's only niche in OU that is not totally outclassed by other mons is suicide lead. It never uses Ice Beam.
The difference between this and other adaptation is not only is it garbage, it actually stops Lando-T doing what i it's meant to do and compromises it. It still loses to Dragon Tail lol.
There's a difference between adaption and having run moves that are useless against all other mons. Also Tang is infamous for getting Toxic stalled by Zygarde.
And to Iron Tail.
So it has to set there for 5 turns before it can heal.... And then it's useless while healing...
Next time can we just start with all these stupid mons that get banned every iteration of OU in Ubers and have suspects to bring them down? Thanks.
I believe your misunderstanding why people believe Zygarde to be too much for OU. It’s not the fact that it can 2HKO everything in OU, it’s a combination of attributes like Thousand Arrows’ spammability, it’s versatile movepool, and the fact that it is so damn bulky, not to the level of Pex but still. Due to all of these traits it can pretty much pick it’s checks and counters. Yes each set has its own checks/counters, but due to how TArrows frees up so much space for moves, it can fit almost anything on any of its sets to cover one or more of it’s checks/counters, and if it’s not on an HO team you won’t know what set it is until it throws out any move that isn’t TArrows.
Buzzwole: Buzz is a fringe option rn and gets Glare’d or Toxic’d.
Clefable: Clef is prob our best answer rn, but even then if can be para’d by Glare or 2HKOd by Band.
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Unaware Clef loses to Toxic.
Dragapult: It’s a check, but it won’t switch like to switch into Band or Toxic.
Kommo-o: Kommo’s most common set is defensive Rocks/BP/EQ/Taunt or Toxic. Not to mention its easy to wear down, and loses to Coil, Toxic, Glare, and Outrage.
Glastrier: Loses to Band Iron Tail and/or Toxic on setup sets.
Kyurem-B: Gets crippled by Glare like you said, but it also doesn’t want to get hit by a Band Outrage or even TArrows.
Kyurem: (Look at Kyurem-B)
Hippowdon: Gets crippled by Toxic and loses to Coil sets if it doesn’t have Roar/Whirlwind.
Mew: Mew is only ever really a spikes lead.
Pheromosa: It checks setup sets but good luck getting it in on Zygarde without getting Glare’d or hit by Band.
Landorus-T: Who tf is running BU rest over SD?
Tangrowth: Good luck if you get Toxic’d.
Tapu Bulu: Rarely uses BU over SD. 2HKOd by Band Iron Tail and loses to Toxic/Glare.
Tapu Fini: Another decent answer, but eventually gets worn down in a game so it’s not a good long term answer. Especially to Banded Zygarde.
Articuno: 2HKOd by Band Iron Tail, still beats Heal Bell sets cause Toxic has more pp, and if it loses it HDB its a wrap.
Cresselia: Loses to Toxic. Moonlight’s 8pp means it won’t be a good long term answer.
Weavile: (See Pheromosa)
Celebi: Way to much of a fringe option, and can lose to Band.
Cloyster: Gets crippled. Oh and good luck fitting it on a team that isn’t HO.
Mamoswine/Noivern: (See Pheromosa again)
Slowbro: Can’t break Zygarde’s sub without Ice Beam which it rarely runs, and still loses to Toxic.
Tsareena: No one and their mother runs Tsareena in any serious team as long as Bulu/Rilla/Ferro/and Tang exist. (Loses to Band and Toxic on setup variants)
Sylveon: 2HKOd by TArrows and crippled by Toxic.
Zarude: Are only true answer to setup sets but still loses to Band Outrage.
Exeggutor-A: Not viable in OU. Still gets OHKOd by Outrage or crippled by Toxic. Try again.
Abomasnow: Easily crippled, loses to Toxic, also not viable. Try again.
A-Sandslash/Hail abusers: Not viable in OU.
Whimsicott: Not viable in OU, still gets OHKOd by Iron Tail.
Avalugg: Who tf is running Avalugg in late 2020?
Shedinja: Crippled by Toxic and only fits on stall.
Shiinotic: Loses to Toxic and 2HKOd by Band Iron Tail. Also outclassed by Amoonguss and Bulu who checks everything Shitnotic does but is also good.
Quagsire/Pyukumuku: Only seen on stall and still crippled by Toxic.
As far as other counterplay that you mentioned.
No smart player is gonna mindlessly switch their Zygarde into Tran or Heattom as Toxic is common on those mons. Most Aegi are offensive, and don’t have room for Toxic. Also Zygarde is not gonna wanna swap into Specs Shadow Ball. Again smart players know not to mindlessly swap into a Pex and get Scald burnt. Pex/Ferro/Lando/Tang lose to Sub-Coil Zygarde 1v1 and again, no smart player will let their Zygarde be crippled. Even if it gets crippled it can still spread para and Toxic for other teammates. Tran and Blissey never run DPulse and Ice Beam there is simply not enough room for these options. Zapdos and Mandi are barely ever gonna have room for phazing moves.
These are really disingenuous lists you guys have made. Is Zygarde running toxic and coil and DD and choice band and iron tail and outrage and glare and sub?
I take particular issue with the comments about Mew and other ones where you seem to imply that adapting a pokemon's sets to meet other metagame threats is out of the question. Interesting take on mons, don't think it'll get you too far tho.
These are really disingenuous lists you guys have made. Is Zygarde running toxic and coil and DD and choice band and iron tail and outrage and glare and sub?
No, but you can bet:
1. Anything it doesn't beat will be abused by one of Zygarde's teammates because Pokemon is a 6v6 game. Zygarde has a narrow pool of checks and they all lose to one move or another, so it's just a matter of picking the correct Zygarde set for your team. It's not like missing out on any of these moves impedes it from running over nearly the entire game, citation: You can actually run RestTalk Zygarde and it will still sweep any team without a dedicated answer to it.
2. By the time you learn that it's Iron Tail not Toxic you've already lost your check. The only way around this is to run multiple of Zygarde's narrow list of checks. Which nicely feeds into your second fallacy:
I take particular issue with the comments about Mew and other ones where you seem to imply that adapting a pokemon's sets to meet other metagame threats is out of the question. Interesting take on mons, don't think it'll get you too far tho.
Running an objectively terrible set just for Zygarde sounds smart until you remember that not every team has Zygarde on it. And if you find any examples where Bulk Up Rest Lando-T or Physically Defensive Ice Beam Mew help you in any other matchup over running objectively better sets let me know.
These are really disingenuous lists you guys have made. Is Zygarde running toxic and coil and DD and choice band and iron tail and outrage and glare and sub?
I take particular issue with the comments about Mew and other ones where you seem to imply that adapting a pokemon's sets to meet other metagame threats is out of the question. Interesting take on mons, don't think it'll get you too far tho.
The point of their lists were to show that zygarde is a very viable mon that can pick and choose it’s counters due to its variety of moves. Of course, zygarde can’t fit anything it wants, but the fact that it has a chance to beat every one of its checks is too strenuous on the metagame. Also, some adaptations simply are bad and waste time with the metagame. Running BU on lando-t or ice beam on mew is pointless as it compromises their roles. A GOOD adaptation would be dragon darts dragapult, who become more common to beat a variety of mons like volcarona, the pink blobs, and alakazam. Dragapult was still able to operate effectively with these changes and thus it was a good adaptation
Ok, I see people complaining a lot about Zygarde, so I will try to share my own opinion about it and all the possible counterplay to its most common and "broken" set.
Back prior to this DLC I thought that Zygarde was healthy in this meta, but gave it the benefit of the doubt, since no HP Ice made it better this Gen. After playing for a week in both ladder and Stour (where I got to Semis yesterday before being destroyed by an actual broken Mon, Magearna), I have come to the conclusion that Zygarde is not broken at all and the meta can adapt to it if players stop being lazy and build the same teams again and again.
My main arguments are:
-It lacks immediate power, even with Band or DD. It does not 2HKO many walls and does not OHKO many offensive threats. You most likely will have enough time to act and prevent Zygarde sweeping you.
-If properly prepared for, it does not have many set-up oportunities. Ice moves and Toxic are not hard to fit in your team. And yes, Toxic on offensive Mons is still good, look at Heatran if you don,t believe.
-As I said before, there are enough COMMON Mons to stop Zygarde. And way more uncommon ones.
-While it is true that it can fit moveslots to beat almost all its checks, the same is true for Mons like Heatran, Clefable and Garchomp, and no one is thinking those are broken.
For the purpose of the below information (the checks), I will consider the following statement:
-While it is true that Zygarde only needs 1 move to work, it is not true that it needs only 1 to break the meta. It needs at least 2, Thousand Arrows and Coil. If Zygarde didn,t learn Coil, we wouldn,t be having this conversation in first place, nobody would even think Coiless Zygarde is opresive.
-As a result, I don,t think I need to justify the balance of Band and DD sets, those have never been the problem. The one problematic set is the following one: Thousand Arrows/Coil/Glare (sometimes Toxic), Substitute. So, this is the main set I will now show the counterplay for.
Lets start with currently OU Mons: Buzzwole: Fully stops ANY Zygarde that does not have Toxic. And lets not pretend its a meme Mon, it never has been. Apart from Zygarde it checks or counters Urshifu, Kartana, Garchomp, Excadrill, Landorus-T, Melmetal and Tyranitar among others. Buzzwole is a legit OU defensive backbone that should be used way more than it is. Clefable: Zygarde needs to hax this one with Glare in order to win. And that is if Clefable is Magic Guard and not Unaware, which ignores the boosts. As a reminder, Unaware Clef gained access to Softboiled in this DLC, so all it takes is this: 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 85-102 (21.5 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery . Of course, it is more vulnerable to Toxic now, but Toxic is less common than Glare and Clefable happens to learn Aromatherapy. Unaware Clefable will need cleric support, either by itself or by a partner, regardless of Zygarde's presence in the meta. Dragapult: Offensive check that bypasses Substitute. Of course, if you switch Dragapult directly into Zygarde it will get crippled or damaged. The idea would be to use Teleport or a slower U-Turn with other Mon to safely bring Pult to the field. Clefable, Mandibuzz, Blissey, Slowbro, Pelipper, there are many pivots for the job, choose your own. Kommo-o: Clanging Scales ignore Sub. Like with Pult, you can use a slow pivot to bring it safely. Has enough bulk to switch itself, but hates Status. Glastrier: I have doubts this stays OU, but I have seen it working in some teams and it does learn Icicle Spear. With 0 bulk, Zygarde already does almost no damage: 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 78-93 (22.8 - 27.2%) -- 49.2% chance to 4HKO . So, with Icicle Spear, the ice horse eventually defeats Zygarde. I had not tried this Mon yet, so I can,t say for now what its best set and teammates are, but it seems legit as a powerful Zygarde check that does more things other than check Zygarde. Kyurem-B: It will get crippled by para, but with DD + Spear + Roost, it will end up beating Zygarde eventually. This doesn,t matter much though, unlike with Zygarde, I do consider there is not enough counterplay to Kyu-B (Scizor, Melmetal, Avalugg and Jirachi, can,t think more reliable checks), so it will likely get banned. Kyurem: However, the same applies to regular Kyurem. It does not like getting para'd but it will eventually beat Zygarde if it has Roost, doesn,t matter if its physical or special. Hippowdon: While it doesn,t beat Zygarde itself (set-up fodder), it can use Whirlwind to phaze it out. It dislikes the not so common Toxic, but doesn,t care about the paralisis at all. If you really want to beat Zygarde with Hippowdon, you can use Curse + Ice Fang, which I do consider a legit (albeit suboptimal) set, since it enables SDef Hippo to beat shit like Clefable, Reuniclus, Zapdos or Corviknight. Mew: Its bulky, it learns Ice Beam and it has Syncronoize to cripple Zygarde with its own status. Nothing more needs to be said, Mew is established as a good Mon already, although is more common as a lead on HO (where Zygarde won,t be boosting on it either). Pheromosa: I speak here about a band set with Triple Axel. Like Dragapult, it can,t switch directly (although it does resist ground), but you can use a slow pivot to help. Lets suppose Zygarde predicts correctly and uses 2 Coils instead of subbing while you switch and Teleport/U-turn. This happens: 252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. +2 248 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 396-468 (94.5 - 111.6%) -- approx. 81.3% chance to OHKO . This is the absolute worst case scenario (except the one in which Pheromosa misses), normally Zygarde will be with a Sub and only at +1, it can also be at +0 with a Sub or +1 without. Zygarde is checked well by band Pheromosa, which is a set that can work for other reasons in OU too. Landorus-T: BU + Rest beats Zygarde unless crit. Of course, you might think this is a suboptimal set... and you will be right. However, its still a Landorus-T and it will still offer utility outside of Zygarde with this set. This is called adaptation and I fail to see how is this diferent from Volcarona using Psychic for only 1 Mon or Corviknight using Shed Shell for only one Mon. Tangrowth: 0 SpA Tangrowth Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 105-124 (25 - 29.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery . Again, this is called adaptation. Tangrowth already has 4 slots syndrome, Zygarde doesn,t change that much. Tapu-Bulu: BU loses to Toxic, but if Zygarde uses Glare, it will outstall it due to paralisis. Unless crit, of course. Tapu-Fini: This now learns Rest after its terrain ends. It also learns Drain Kiss and Iron Defense. If you need, you can use it as your Zygarde check.
So, 14 Mons looking at OU alone. Some are better, some are shakier, but all work to an extent as Zygarde checks. Now lets get to my favourite part of the post, Eeveetechnology! Non-OU Mons that have niches in OU as Zygarde checks... and not only as Zygarde checks. Articuno: Technically this is still OU, but it certainly won,t be soon. Has enough bulk, Freeze Dry to do damage, Heal Bell and Pressure to stall both Status and Thousand Arrows. Outside of checking Zygarde it can be used either as a Defoguer (Hippo, Clef, defensive Chomp, non-SE Lando and non-Gyro Ferro get stalled or as a check to some Mons with Haze (Suicune and Clefable mainly). Also checks Lando-I, which doesn,t mean much, since this one is for sure getting banned. Cresselia: Also OU, but not for long. Titanic bulk and learns IB. Works as a wall and as a Trick Roomer. Checks Lando-I too, also Chomp and Lando-T. Weavile: Like Pheromosa, it learns Triple Axel and can come in via U-Turn or Teleport. 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. +2 248 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 480-576 (114.5 - 137.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO . This, like with Pheromosa is worst case scenario outside of misses. Works as a niche wallbreaker in OU. Celebi: Calm Mind + Recover works, it even has Natural Cure to heal the status. I admit it though, few reasons to run it in OU outside of Zygarde. Cloyster: Doesn,t like paralisis, but can use Zygarde as a set-up fodder in order to sweep the opposing team. Takes few damage from Thousand Arrows. Mamoswine: Similar to Pheromosa and Weavile, although a bit more unreliable due to Icicle Spear having the option to only hit twice. With 3 hits, this happens: 252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. +2 248 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 360-432 (85.9 - 103.1%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO . I think is enough and this has been used succesfully in OU before Zygarde came. Noivern: Bad Dragapult, but has Roost. Slowbro: Good check with IB. One of the best Mons for teleporting to Pheromosa or Dragapult. Works as Lando, Drill and Chomp check to. Tsareena: One of the ugliest Mons to exist, but resists ground and has Triple Axel. Pretty sure it has other uses in OU, but hadn,t explored it, since its way too ugly. Sylveon: Has Pixilate Hyper Voice to bypass Sub. I admit it, this one does not have many reasons to use over Clefable. Zarude: This Mon is designed to counter almost all Zygarde variants. Resists Ground, has BU to boost alongside Zygarde, heals Status with Jungle Healing and even can ignore Zygarde's boosts with Darkest Lariat. Outside of Zygarde, it checks other dangerous Mons like Crawdaunt, Garchomp or Spectrier. Exeggutor-Alola: Works in TR team with Harvest + Sitrus Berry. Resists Arrows, breaks Sub (more than 50% of the time, and that is if Zygarde is fully invested in Sdef), kills Zygarde with DM. Abomasnow: Unfortunately lost its Mega (was one of the best Zygarde checks last Gen), but still works as Hail setter, especially now that Arctozolt and Arctowish can be a thing, not just Sandslash. Sandslash-Alola, Arctozolt and Arctowish: Viable Hail sweepers if you bring them via Teleport or U-Turn. Whimsicott: Resists Arrows, can cripple Zygarde with Encore, Taunt, Knock, etc. Can support team with Tailwind, pivots with U-Turn, Defogs. The one bad thing is that it can,t do everything at once. Avalugg: Never underestimate this guy, it has titanic bulk, it has recover and it will beat Zygarde with Icicle Spear. 3 hits have a chance to break a Sub of even +6 Zygarde while +6 Zygarde can,t always OHKO. Avalugg also checks Lando-T and Chomp among others and always spins on Ferro, Hippo and Lando-T, among others (of course, provided they don,t have Toxic). Shedinja: Fully walls every Zygarde that does not have Toxic. Of course, using this as your ONLY Zygarde check is a recipe for disaster. Shiinotic: Is this a bad Bulu/Amoonguss? It is not. Unlike them, Shiinotic will always break Zygarde's Sub with Moonblast. It does not only work for Zygarde, since it has Spore, punishes U-Turn with Effect Spore, heals with Strength Sap and checks dangerous threats like Lando-T, Chomp, (non-Acro) Rillaboom, Watershifu and Crawdaunt. Quagsire and Pyukumuku: Unaware goes, brr.
So, plenty of material to work with, most of which have more niches that are not checking Zygarde. The last part of my post will consist of methods of preventing Zygarde to switch-in safely or to boost in your Mons:
-Toxic. This one is no brainer. If your Rotom-H, Aegislash or Heatran Toxic Zygarde on the switch, it destroys it unless it has Rest (which is VERY viable, but not common enough).
-WoW. Same as above, doesn,t actually kill Zygarde but cripples it a lot.
-Knock/Trick. Again, non rest Zygarde needs the lefties. It therefore can,t switch directly into Pex, Ferro, Growth or Lando.
-Dragon Pulse Heatran. There are more dragons in the meta for which this move is useful if you won,t want to use Toxic.
-Ice Beam Blissey. Works for other grounds too. You are better teleporting away to an offensive check though.
-Roar/Whirlwind. Uncommon moves on Mandibuzz or Zapdos, but can work in a pinch. Of course, work against other sweepers too.
-Regular offensive pressure. If Zygarde takes too much damage, it won,t be sweeping anytime soon.
So, this is it. You might agree with my arguments or not, but before saying "Zygarde broken", try to adapt your teams to it, it isn,t very different to adapt them to Lando-T, Heatran or Clefable. In my opinion there is more than enough counterplay to Zygarde for it not deserving the banhammer, just think outside the box! Have a nice Eeve... morning, its still morning here. I need to find new jokes, gdi...
Buzzwole loses to Toxic. Clefable loses to Choice Band, can be parahaxed to death, and also just loses to Coil + Iron Tail. Dragapult gets bodied by Dragon Dance, and if its mixed Clear Body set, loses to Rest + Coil. Kommo is used primarily as a defensive Pokémon, and that set doesn't use Clanging Scales, and can't fit it in. Glastrier is just simply worn down with Rocks and chip. You can also paralyze it. Kyurem-B has a better chance than Glastrier, but is also broken, so.... Hippowdon isn't a Zygarde check. Phasing out a defensive sweeper isn't checking it, its delaying the inevitable. Pheromosa loses to Dragon Dance
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 256-302 (90.4 - 106.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Bulk Up + Rest is not only a Bad Landorus-T set that strips it of any chance to any else worthwhile, its not even a guaranteed way to beat Zygarde 1v1 because of parahax. Tangrowth not only loses to Toxic, it loses to parahax and it loses to any set feat Rest. You already explained why Bulu loses, and Tapu Fini loses to offensive sets carrying Iron Tail.
The funny thing is, these aren't niche sets. Every set I've mentioned are viable. DDance and Band are completely unaccounted for in your sturdy list of checks, and you didn't even try looking at any Coil set outside of Coil Sub TArrows Glare. The rest of the list you mentioned only strengthens my argument, as why should one run suboptimal Pokémon to check one thing, instead of banning that one thing.
Alright, so I'm personally sick of the relentless page after page discussion on Zygarde, so I'm gonna redirect here.
Audino
I have had a LOT of fun with this Pokemon lately, more so than a lot of other bulky mons. While it may seem outclassed or egregiously niche, it actually has some nice specific advantages for this particular stage of the OU metagame. I needed something with the longevity given by Regenerator, but something that wasn't dunked on by the massive amount of Ghost types and Special Sweepers running around. So I decided... Audino.
Audino @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Yawn / Toxic (I personally prefer Yawn)
- Knock Off
- Encore
- Wish / Healing Wish (I personally prefer Wish)
Other Options: Protect, Heal Bell, Calm Mind, Reflect, Light Screen, Thunder Wave, A literal metric ton of offensive moves which I won't list, Substitute, Rest, Magic Coat
Audino came to mind for several reasons in particular, but the main one is that it's the only Pokemon with Regenerator that isn't hit super effectively or neutrally by all the STAB Shadow Balls flying around the tier right now. In fact, it's immune to Ghost-type moves, and the only Pokemon in the game with both a Ghost immunity and Regenerator. 103 / 86 / 86 bulk isn't the best, but with EV investment it is 100% workable, and Regenerator only helps in that longevity. Audino has an absolutely fantastic move pool, so this set I've listed isn't the only option. Yawn and Encore both cripple set up sweepers, and Toxic cripples walls, so the preference is up to you. Knock Off is useful for nerfing and also hitting super effectively many of the Ghost types running around the tier, and Wish is for Wish passing, although alternatively, you could run Healing Wish if Audino has served its purpose. Other options like Heal Bell, Protect, and a few others are definitely useful as well. Here are some calculations just a reference point.
Damage Calculations:
Spectrier Shadow Ball (Immune)
+2 252+ SpA Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 164-194 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 83-98 (20.2 - 23.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 127-150 (30.9 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 231-273 (56.3 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It definitely requires a little work and isn't the most splashable mon in the world. However, I still feel as though Audino has a valuable niche, and it will continue to be valuable until Ghost-type offense widdles away in the future.
There's a lot to cover, so much that I think I'll touch on the top 10 (not counting Genesect) and then let everyone else discuss the rest.
Lando-I has returned and has already proven how terrifying of a wallbreaker it is. Earth Power + Sludge Wave + Focus Blast nearly 2HKO's the entire tier, and to make matters worse, it sometimes uses Gravity to help expand Earth Power's coverage and increase Focus Blast's accuracy. It has a solid enough speed tier to threaten defensive mons as well as a good number of slower offensive mons, such as Urshifu-Single Strike and Zygarde. Most teams probably rely on something fast with Ice-type coverage, enough power to KO Landorus, or something with Knock Off to try and deal with it. Such mons could include Pheromosa, Dragapult, and Latios. Overall, Lando-I is definetely the best wallbreaker or at least one of the best wallbreakers in the tier, and it's likely to be on most people's radars when it comes to thinking about what might be the next mon to leave the tier.
One of the biggest missing defensive pieces known to OU has returned, and so far Heatran's been great. It's able to provide Stealth Rock, switch into a bunch of special threats like Magearna, and it's able to apply some offensive pressure in return. Specially defensive Heatran is excellent at sponging attacks from the likes of Spectrier, Magearna, and the recently banned Naganadel. Naganadel in particular may be partially responsible for Heatran's usage being so high, as Heatran was one of the few defensive options that could try and deal with it. Offensively, Magma Storm + Taunt + Toxic + Earth Power is pretty strong, especially with Gliscor no longer being in the tier. This usually results in Heatran getting status off on something like Zygarde, or trapping something like Toxapex. However, Tapu Fini looks to be a mon that's popped up as an answer to Heatran, it looks like people are already adapting to it. One other thing Heatran has to worry about is that Knock Off is very good in this generation, and Heatran, having no recovery outside of Leftovers, is essentially on a timer once it gets hit by Knock Off. Seeing mons like Clefable and Toxapex frequently run it may decrease Heatran's ability to switch in as frequently as it wants to, so that's one thing to look out for. Despite this, Heatran should be great at what it does, and it should remain as a solid staple in the metagame.
If you hated Ghost-types so far this gen, then Spectrier will be sure to have you hating them even more. Spectrier is a pretty interesting mon, as it boasts incredible offensive stats with 145 special attack and 130 speed with a great ability in Grim Neigh, as well, but it has a rather shallow movepool, with its best attacks being Shadow Ball, Hex, Mud Shot, Dark Pulse, and Hyper Beam. It has access to Nasty Plot and Will-O-Wisp, both of which help it become a stronger wallbreaker. Spectrier also runs a Choice Scarf set, which can potentially sweep in a late game thanks to Grim Neigh providing special attack boosts after each KO. There aren't too many Ghost resists nor immunities outside of Urshifu-Single Strike, Blissey, Mandibuzz, and Tyranitar, so it'll be interesting to see how players try and adapt to Spectrier.
Zygarde has been doing what did in Gen 7 OU with its Choice Band, Coil, and Dragon Dance sets. Due to Thousand Arrows having incredible coverage, as it hits everything for neutral or super-effective damage outside of a few Grass-types and Bug-types, Zygarde is able to run enough support moves for itself in order to become a massive threat. These moves usually include Glare, Coil, Dragon Dance, Substitute, and Toxic. Glare, aside from slowing down opponents, can also provide Zygarde with additional setup turns, or an opportunity to break through the opponent should they be unable to heal themselves due to a turn of paralysis. Coil and Dragon Dance are great, with Dragon Dance sets being more common on hyper offense teams. Setup sets in general have benefited a lot from Hidden Power being removed from the game, as in the past, mons like Lando-T would try and deal with Zygarde by running Hidden Power Ice, but are no longer able to do so. Toxic is able to hit switch ins like Tangrowth and Buzzwole, which can give Zygarde or a teammate a chance of wearing down those targets over time. Last but not least, Zygarde does provide some defensive utility as well. It's a Ground-type, meaning it fills that role in stopping Regieleki as well as Volt Switch from mons like Magearna, and it can also switch into Heatran, although it has to careful about Toxic and a burn from Lava Plume. All in all, Zygarde is a very powerful mon that's capable of customizing its sets to a solid degree and looks to be a standout presence in the OU metagame.
Lando-T has returned, although this time around, it's being forced to share the spotlight with its counterpart Lando-I. Lando-T, offensively, lost a decent amount of potential as it can no longer use Z-moves for its Swords Dance sets, and defensively, losing Hidden Power means it's less reliable at handling threats like Zygarde, which would Lando-T would need Hidden Power Ice to properly handle. Lando-T has been seen as a Stealth Rock user on hyper offense teams, a defense pivot with Stealth rock on bulky offense teams, and the traditional scarf set on bulky offense and balance teams. In addition to Stealth Rock, U-turn and Knock Off allow Lando-T to grab momentum and apply a bit of pressure respectively, especially with Knock Off being as great as it is this generation. Stone Edge is usually used to KO or threaten Flying-types like Torn-T and Zapdos, and if desired, Lando-T can run Defog to remove hazards in a pinch. Lando-T is able to counter Regieleki and soft check or at least get an attack drop against physical threats like Blaziken, Cinderace, and Melmetal. Unfortunately for Lando-T, this time around Intimidate can't handle everything, as Zapdos-Galar has Defiant, and Urshifu-Single Strike's Wicked Blow will always land a critical hit. It'll be intersting to see how Lando-T's usage goes, as it's pretty impressive how high it is with Lando-I being in the tier at the same time.
Pheromosa is back and has taken Dragapult's spot as the second fastest non-scarf mon in the tier (Regieleki taking Zeraora's as the fastest). Pheromosa has been using a handful of different sets, such as a fast pivot set with Heavy-Duty Boots, a wallbreaking set with Choice Band, and a special sweeping set with Quiver Dance. Pheromosa having access to Ice Beam makes it a really nice revenge killer to deal with the new Ground-type threats, most notably Lando-I and Zygarde. I'm sure by now everyone's seen what a fast pivot with Heavy-Duty Boots is capable of, and Pheromosa is definetely a good one. Choice Band is able to turn Pheromosa into a scary physical threat, that's able to threaten mons like Toxapex with Drill Run, Clefable with Poison Jab, and just generally fire off strong U-turn and Close Combat attacks. Although Pheromosa lost access to Z-Hyper Beam, Quiver Dance sets can be potent at times, since +1 Bug Buzz, Ice Beam, and Focus Blast can hit pretty hard against anything that's not a Toxapex.
Kyurem-Black has returned after being quick banned in DLC1 OU, and so far it's been very dangerous. Dragon Dance sets with Icicle Spear and Fusion Bolt, especially behind Reflect and Light Screen on hyper offense, make Kyurem-Black very difficult to stop let alone KO. It already had good enough bulk outside of screens, but behind screens, it's very difficult to 1HKO, and this has been abused with some people using Weakness Policy on Kyurem-Black to give it some extra boosts to sweep. The most common answers appears to be Melmetal and Buzzwole, but maybe we'll see some new defensive stops to it in the near future.
Magearna has returned and its been pretty strong so far. It's used a lot of different setup sets, Choice Specs, and then the occasional defensive Assault Vest set. There's the traditional Shift Gear sets commonly seen on hyper offense, sometimes with 3 attacks, sometimes with 2 attacks and Calm Mind, and then there's also the Iron Defense + Calm Mind + Draining Kiss + Stored Power set that saw some usage before Magearna was previously banned. Thunderbolt + Flash Cannon being able to break past Clefable and Toxapex is part of what makes Magearna scary, as most teams have to turn to something like Ferrothorn or Heatran and hope Magearna doesn't have Focus Blast. Heatran and a lot of Ground-types returning should definetely help keep Magearna in-check, at least compared to DLC1 OU.
(Single-Strike)
Urshifu-Single Strike is still a pretty big threat, especially with Clefable's usage taking a pretty big dip. In addition to the Choice Band and Bulk Up sets we previously saw, Urshifu (both Single and Rapid Strike) have been utilizing a Choice Scarf set to help provide additional revenge killing power. Sucker Punch is pretty helpful now that teams are starting to use Choice Scarf mons again, not to mention there's just a lot of new faster threats in the tier like Regieleki and Spectrier.
Since Genesect was #1 in usage and was banned, I decided to include Regieleki on the list since it's technically #10 if you exclude Genesect. Regieleki, despite its shallow movepool, has turned out to be alright in OU. That being said, I wanted to discuss what Regieleki does to OU, because I think it's fairly important. Due to how fast it is and how strong it is, teams are forced to run a Ground-type mon on every team in order to not immediately fold over to Regieleki. Its speed tier allows it to outspeed Choice Scarf users with a base speed stat up to 116. For OU, this means that any mon slower than Cinderace is going to slower than Regieleki even if they run a Choice Scarf. This makes Regieleki much harder to revenge kill, as it usually means priority moves like Urshifu's Sucker Punch are the most reliable method. That being said, Regieleki is more or less unable to deal significant damage to Ground-types, leaving it unable to do too much until that Ground-type is removed. That being said, it's still able to successfully force in the opposing Ground-type on a frequent basis, which can then be abused with something like Spikes, Toxic Spikes, or a double switch to a teammate to take advantage of the incoming Ground-type. As for what sets it uses, Regieleki has been seen using dual screens with Explosion on hyper offense teams, and then it's usually seen with Choice Specs outside of hyper offense in order to hit as hard as possible once the opposing Ground-type has been eliminated. The Choice Specs set usually runs a few Normal-type moves, mainly Extremespeed and Rapid Spin, alongside Volt Switch and Thunderbolt. Extremespeed provides priority to deal with setup sweepers like Quiver Dance Pheromosa, and Rapid Spin is always nice to remove hazards. Luckily for us, the best Ground-types known to OU have returned in order to save us from Regieleki, and their prescence may cause Regieleki to take a dip in usage over time, but either way, it's important to remember why you're running those Ground-types in the first place, because if you forget, then this is one mon that's ready to punish you.
I'll post the usual questions below, and I'll also use this time to remind everyone that I'll be posting usage stats from Round 1 of Tundra Cup sometime tonight or tomorrow.
1. How do you feel about the new mons that made it to OU?
2. How do you feel about the pre-dlc mons that saw dips in usage?
3. For both returning mons and new-dlc mons, whose usage surprised you the most?
4. What mons do you believe will continue to see high usage?
5. What mons do you believe will continue to see low/lower usage?
6. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?
7. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?
8. How do you feel about the most used offensive mons in the tier?
9. How do you feel about the most used defensive mons in the tier?
10. This one isn't entirely related to usage, but if you participated in this weekend's Smogon Tour, and/or in the Tundra Cup, what has caught your attention so far?
11. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?
12. I hope you all have a wonderful rest of the day
Ok, I see people complaining a lot about Zygarde, so I will try to share my own opinion about it and all the possible counterplay to its most common and "broken" set.
Back prior to this DLC I thought that Zygarde was healthy in this meta, but gave it the benefit of the doubt, since no HP Ice made it better this Gen. After playing for a week in both ladder and Stour (where I got to Semis yesterday before being destroyed by an actual broken Mon, Magearna), I have come to the conclusion that Zygarde is not broken at all and the meta can adapt to it if players stop being lazy and build the same teams again and again.
I don't agree with the premise of your argument to begin with, but saying "players need to stop being lazy and build different teams" doesn't service your argument in any way.
My main arguments are:
-It lacks immediate power, even with Band or DD. It does not 2HKO many walls and does not OHKO many offensive threats. You most likely will have enough time to act and prevent Zygarde sweeping you.
Plenty of problematic Pokemon lack immediate power. The issue with Zygarde is that it spreads paralysis (or Toxic) and looks for an opportunity to setup and sweep during the mid-to-late game. Assuming its one set can also cause issues if you pivot into a check and end up taking a banded attack.
-If properly prepared for, it does not have many set-up oportunities. Ice moves and Toxic are not hard to fit in your team. And yes, Toxic on offensive Mons is still good, look at Heatran if you don,t believe.
If properly prepared for, just about any problematic Pokemon will lack set-up opportunities. Pokemon isn't played in a vacuum; Zygarde players aren't going to let it get hit by an Ice move if they can avoid it, and there are ways around Toxic (Substitute)
-While it is true that it can fit moveslots to beat almost all its checks, the same is true for Mons like Heatran, Clefable and Garchomp, and no one is thinking those are broken.
Those are completely different Pokemon with different circumstances. The closest comparison is Garchomp, and that Pokemon lacks Zygarde's ability to no-sell Ground immunities, circumventing the limitations of Dragon/Ground coverage.
If Zygarde counterplay were that simple, there wouldn't even be a discussion. The issue with Zygarde isn't that it lacks immediate checks and counters, it's that it can be used at all stages of the match, checking various Pokemon, spreading status and waiting for its checks and counters to be worn down before it can go for game.
Tsareena: One of the ugliest Mons to exist, but resists ground and has Triple Axel. Pretty sure it has other uses in OU, but hadn,t explored it, since its way too ugly.
Using niche Pokemon to deal with a single problematic Pokemon has never been a good argument (because it puts you at a deficit vs the rest of the metagame), but this is a discussion thread, not a soapbox. You need to be more serious.
So, this is it. You might agree with my arguments or not, but before saying "Zygarde broken", try to adapt your teams to it, it isn,t very different to adapt them to Lando-T, Heatran or Clefable. In my opinion there is more than enough counterplay to Zygarde for it not deserving the banhammer, just think outside the box! Have a nice Eeve... morning, its still morning here. I need to find new jokes, gdi...
I'm going to be blunt; all I see in this post are weak arguments and an assumption that players aren't trying hard enough to adapt to Zygarde (which is a conceit on your part), supplemented by bad attempts at humor. The metagame is filled with problematic Pokemon for obvious reasons, but imo Zygarde is pretty nefarious. It's a Pokemon that sets up its own win condition and breaks the established rules of the game with Thousand Arrows.
Considering that Zygarde is such a problem, it's kind of weird that both Buzzwole and Tangrowth dropped into UU considering that they're probably the best defensive answers to it. Buzzwole I understand that it's a very niche pick, but Tangrowth especially weirds me out.
OK I feel like we should move on from Zygarde in this thread before it gets locked, because with the last page or two being almost exclusively Zygarde talk, it seems like it's heading down that road
