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Considering that Zygarde is such a problem, it's kind of weird that both Buzzwole and Tangrowth dropped into UU considering that they're probably the best defensive answers to it. Buzzwole I understand that it's a very niche pick, but Tangrowth especially weirds me out.
I think part of the reason why Tangrowth dropped is because of Kyurem-B and U-turn spam from the like of Pheromosa & Genesect. Slowbro suffers from the same problem but it has access to Teleport to keep momentum, while Buzzwole or Tangrowth just kinda sits there. And with the meta is so incredibly volatile, these mons doesn't have a minute to breathe in OU right now.
About Zygarde, every time it has a Substitute up, my heart sinks. If I switch to get a check in then I get a Glare in the face, if I don't switch then it just proceeds to do its Dragon Dance/Coil nonsense. Zygarde doesn't even need to set up to win, it could just rinse & repeat the whole the Sub/Glare process to cripple your offensive mons and let its teammate grab the win instead. Right now Zygarde is the thing that you know exactly what it is about to do (aside from the occasionally CB set), but trying to stop it hurts.
There's a lot to cover, so much that I think I'll touch on the top 10 (not counting Genesect) and then let everyone else discuss the rest.
Lando-I has returned and has already proven how terrifying of a wallbreaker it is. Earth Power + Sludge Wave + Focus Blast nearly 2HKO's the entire tier, and to make matters worse, it sometimes uses Gravity to help expand Earth Power's coverage and increase Focus Blast's accuracy. It has a solid enough speed tier to threaten defensive mons as well as a good number of slower offensive mons, such as Urshifu-Single Strike and Zygarde. Most teams probably rely on something fast with Ice-type coverage, enough power to KO Landorus, or something with Knock Off to try and deal with it. Such mons could include Pheromosa, Dragapult, and Latios. Overall, Lando-I is definetely the best wallbreaker or at least one of the best wallbreakers in the tier, and it's likely to be on most people's radars when it comes to thinking about what might be the next mon to leave the tier.
One of the biggest missing defensive pieces known to OU has returned, and so far Heatran's been great. It's able to provide Stealth Rock, switch into a bunch of special threats like Magearna, and it's able to apply some offensive pressure in return. Specially defensive Heatran is excellent at sponging attacks from the likes of Spectrier, Magearna, and the recently banned Naganadel. Naganadel in particular may be partially responsible for Heatran's usage being so high, as Heatran was one of the few defensive options that could try and deal with it. Offensively, Magma Storm + Taunt + Toxic + Earth Power is pretty strong, especially with Gliscor no longer being in the tier. This usually results in Heatran getting status off on something like Zygarde, or trapping something like Toxapex. However, Tapu Fini looks to be a mon that's popped up as an answer to Heatran, it looks like people are already adapting to it. One other thing Heatran has to worry about is that Knock Off is very good in this generation, and Heatran, having no recovery outside of Leftovers, is essentially on a timer once it gets hit by Knock Off. Seeing mons like Clefable and Toxapex frequently run it may decrease Heatran's ability to switch in as frequently as it wants to, so that's one thing to look out for. Despite this, Heatran should be great at what it does, and it should remain as a solid staple in the metagame.
If you hated Ghost-types so far this gen, then Spectrier will be sure to have you hating them even more. Spectrier is a pretty interesting mon, as it boasts incredible offensive stats with 145 special attack and 130 speed with a great ability in Grim Neigh, as well, but it has a rather shallow movepool, with its best attacks being Shadow Ball, Hex, Mud Shot, Dark Pulse, and Hyper Beam. It has access to Nasty Plot and Will-O-Wisp, both of which help it become a stronger wallbreaker. Spectrier also runs a Choice Scarf set, which can potentially sweep in a late game thanks to Grim Neigh providing special attack boosts after each KO. There aren't too many Ghost resists nor immunities outside of Urshifu-Single Strike, Blissey, Mandibuzz, and Tyranitar, so it'll be interesting to see how players try and adapt to Spectrier.
Zygarde has been doing what did in Gen 7 OU with its Choice Band, Coil, and Dragon Dance sets. Due to Thousand Arrows having incredible coverage, as it hits everything for neutral or super-effective damage outside of a few Grass-types and Bug-types, Zygarde is able to run enough support moves for itself in order to become a massive threat. These moves usually include Glare, Coil, Dragon Dance, Substitute, and Toxic. Glare, aside from slowing down opponents, can also provide Zygarde with additional setup turns, or an opportunity to break through the opponent should they be unable to heal themselves due to a turn of paralysis. Coil and Dragon Dance are great, with Dragon Dance sets being more common on hyper offense teams. Setup sets in general have benefited a lot from Hidden Power being removed from the game, as in the past, mons like Lando-T would try and deal with Zygarde by running Hidden Power Ice, but are no longer able to do so. Toxic is able to hit switch ins like Tangrowth and Buzzwole, which can give Zygarde or a teammate a chance of wearing down those targets over time. Last but not least, Zygarde does provide some defensive utility as well. It's a Ground-type, meaning it fills that role in stopping Regieleki as well as Volt Switch from mons like Magearna, and it can also switch into Heatran, although it has to careful about Toxic and a burn from Lava Plume. All in all, Zygarde is a very powerful mon that's capable of customizing its sets to a solid degree and looks to be a standout presence in the OU metagame.
Lando-T has returned, although this time around, it's being forced to share the spotlight with its counterpart Lando-I. Lando-T, offensively, lost a decent amount of potential as it can no longer use Z-moves for its Swords Dance sets, and defensively, losing Hidden Power means it's less reliable at handling threats like Zygarde, which would Lando-T would need Hidden Power Ice to properly handle. Lando-T has been seen as a Stealth Rock user on hyper offense teams, a defense pivot with Stealth rock on bulky offense teams, and the traditional scarf set on bulky offense and balance teams. In addition to Stealth Rock, U-turn and Knock Off allow Lando-T to grab momentum and apply a bit of pressure respectively, especially with Knock Off being as great as it is this generation. Stone Edge is usually used to KO or threaten Flying-types like Torn-T and Zapdos, and if desired, Lando-T can run Defog to remove hazards in a pinch. Lando-T is able to counter Regieleki and soft check or at least get an attack drop against physical threats like Blaziken, Cinderace, and Melmetal. Unfortunately for Lando-T, this time around Intimidate can't handle everything, as Zapdos-Galar has Defiant, and Urshifu-Single Strike's Wicked Blow will always land a critical hit. It'll be intersting to see how Lando-T's usage goes, as it's pretty impressive how high it is with Lando-I being in the tier at the same time.
Pheromosa is back and has taken Dragapult's spot as the second fastest non-scarf mon in the tier (Regieleki taking Zeraora's as the fastest). Pheromosa has been using a handful of different sets, such as a fast pivot set with Heavy-Duty Boots, a wallbreaking set with Choice Band, and a special sweeping set with Quiver Dance. Pheromosa having access to Ice Beam makes it a really nice revenge killer to deal with the new Ground-type threats, most notably Lando-I and Zygarde. I'm sure by now everyone's seen what a fast pivot with Heavy-Duty Boots is capable of, and Pheromosa is definetely a good one. Choice Band is able to turn Pheromosa into a scary physical threat, that's able to threaten mons like Toxapex with Drill Run, Clefable with Poison Jab, and just generally fire off strong U-turn and Close Combat attacks. Although Pheromosa lost access to Z-Hyper Beam, Quiver Dance sets can be potent at times, since +1 Bug Buzz, Ice Beam, and Focus Blast can hit pretty hard against anything that's not a Toxapex.
Kyurem-Black has returned after being quick banned in DLC1 OU, and so far it's been very dangerous. Dragon Dance sets with Icicle Spear and Fusion Bolt, especially behind Reflect and Light Screen on hyper offense, make Kyurem-Black very difficult to stop let alone KO. It already had good enough bulk outside of screens, but behind screens, it's very difficult to 1HKO, and this has been abused with some people using Weakness Policy on Kyurem-Black to give it some extra boosts to sweep. The most common answers appears to be Melmetal and Buzzwole, but maybe we'll see some new defensive stops to it in the near future.
Magearna has returned and its been pretty strong so far. It's used a lot of different setup sets, Choice Specs, and then the occasional defensive Assault Vest set. There's the traditional Shift Gear sets commonly seen on hyper offense, sometimes with 3 attacks, sometimes with 2 attacks and Calm Mind, and then there's also the Iron Defense + Calm Mind + Draining Kiss + Stored Power set that saw some usage before Magearna was previously banned. Thunderbolt + Flash Cannon being able to break past Clefable and Toxapex is part of what makes Magearna scary, as most teams have to turn to something like Ferrothorn or Heatran and hope Magearna doesn't have Focus Blast. Heatran and a lot of Ground-types returning should definetely help keep Magearna in-check, at least compared to DLC1 OU.
(Single-Strike)
Urshifu-Single Strike is still a pretty big threat, especially with Clefable's usage taking a pretty big dip. In addition to the Choice Band and Bulk Up sets we previously saw, Urshifu (both Single and Rapid Strike) have been utilizing a Choice Scarf set to help provide additional revenge killing power. Sucker Punch is pretty helpful now that teams are starting to use Choice Scarf mons again, not to mention there's just a lot of new faster threats in the tier like Regieleki and Spectrier.
Since Genesect was #1 in usage and was banned, I decided to include Regieleki on the list since it's technically #10 if you exclude Genesect. Regieleki, despite its shallow movepool, has turned out to be alright in OU. That being said, I wanted to discuss what Regieleki does to OU, because I think it's fairly important. Due to how fast it is and how strong it is, teams are forced to run a Ground-type mon on every team in order to not immediately fold over to Regieleki. Its speed tier allows it to outspeed Choice Scarf users with a base speed stat up to 116. For OU, this means that any mon slower than Cinderace is going to slower than Regieleki even if they run a Choice Scarf. This makes Regieleki much harder to revenge kill, as it usually means priority moves like Urshifu's Sucker Punch are the most reliable method. That being said, Regieleki is more or less unable to deal significant damage to Ground-types, leaving it unable to do too much until that Ground-type is removed. That being said, it's still able to successfully force in the opposing Ground-type on a frequent basis, which can then be abused with something like Spikes, Toxic Spikes, or a double switch to a teammate to take advantage of the incoming Ground-type. As for what sets it uses, Regieleki has been seen using dual screens with Explosion on hyper offense teams, and then it's usually seen with Choice Specs outside of hyper offense in order to hit as hard as possible once the opposing Ground-type has been eliminated. The Choice Specs set usually runs a few Normal-type moves, mainly Extremespeed and Rapid Spin, alongside Volt Switch and Thunderbolt. Extremespeed provides priority to deal with setup sweepers like Quiver Dance Pheromosa, and Rapid Spin is always nice to remove hazards. Luckily for us, the best Ground-types known to OU have returned in order to save us from Regieleki, and their prescence may cause Regieleki to take a dip in usage over time, but either way, it's important to remember why you're running those Ground-types in the first place, because if you forget, then this is one mon that's ready to punish you.
I'll post the usual questions below, and I'll also use this time to remind everyone that I'll be posting usage stats from Round 1 of Tundra Cup sometime tonight or tomorrow.
1. How do you feel about the new mons that made it to OU?
2. How do you feel about the pre-dlc mons that saw dips in usage?
3. For both returning mons and new-dlc mons, whose usage surprised you the most?
4. What mons do you believe will continue to see high usage?
5. What mons do you believe will continue to see low/lower usage?
6. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?
7. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?
8. How do you feel about the most used offensive mons in the tier?
9. How do you feel about the most used defensive mons in the tier?
10. This one isn't entirely related to usage, but if you participated in this weekend's Smogon Tour, and/or in the Tundra Cup, what has caught your attention so far?
11. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?
12. I hope you all have a wonderful rest of the day
2. New toy syndrome is mostly to blame for the low usage of most of these mons such but a lot of them definitely could not stand the sudden power spike. Toxtricity and scizor were some of those affected by the increased dex that may find small niches but will definitely struggle to be top tier.
3. Naganadel has no reason having as low a usage as this considering its obscene power even without z-moves in the picture, forcing more balanced teams to run one of the small handful of checks it has. Maybe people thought that the removal of z-moves would limit its power but that obviously wasn't the case lol. Aside from that, swampert being used more than cinderace and corviknight was welcome albeit unexpected and who would have thought that spectrier, a pokemon with absolutely no coverage, would be used more than zygarde. Also tapu lele not even being ou by usage is funny.
4. All the unbanned mons will continue to be top tier although there is definitely a big difference between the ones in the top ten and blaziken, melmetal and cinderace. Other than that we now have glue mons that aren't clefable! Heatran is practically holding the tier together and lando-t is as reliable as ever. Also magearna is back with its fifty viable sets.
5. Until it gets atleast grassy glide, Tapu bulu won't consistently be used in ou on account of rillaboom mostly outclassing it as a grassy terrain setter. Also while it probably isn't bad in itself or even completely outclassed, latias is greatly over shadowed by her brother offensively so I expect her usage to stay quite low.
6. Slowbro is honestly really good and while it now faces competition from swampert as a pivot it still has a couple of things that set it apart. While it's typing is overall worse than swampert, Regenerator + boots gives it a great amount of longevity that allows it to take fairly strong physical super effective hits and still be healthy to check dangerous threats. And speaking about dangerous threats, its psychic typing allows it to counter blaziken lacking knock off, it pretty much walls cinderace and it can switch into zygarde and doesn't mind paralysis, allowing for it to teleport to a teammate that can threaten zygarde out, such as specs Infiltrator dragapult. Future sight is also very useful in softening up the opponents pokemon for slowbro's team to capitalise on. So yeah slowbro should honestly be used a lot more.
7. Spectrier definitely isn't completely bad but it's flaws are really noticeable. Ghost stab is really good and it's snowballing capabilities are impressive but it's inability to touch dark and normal types means that these mons will naturally stop it from destroying your team. You could argue that dark and especially normal are fairly rare in ou but spectrier also struggles with other mons that can take its shadow balls well such as heatran and tapu fini to name a few. It simply lacks the coverage to hit them exceptionally hard (nobodies running mud shot for heatran lol). If it got an actual move pool it could very well be top tier or even ban worthy but right now I dont see it as being anything other than overhyped.
8. It's to be expected with a bunch of uber mons allowed but the offensive mons are very powerful, with landorus-I, zygarde, pheromosa and kyurem-b in particular ruling the tier. Landorus can only be checked offensively as nothing really walls it, zygarde is a headache for teams to dance lest it rip them apart, pheromosa dominates late game and kyurem-b has amazing power after a single dragon dance, which it can get easily thanks to its great bulk.
9. Clefable not even being in the top 10 is a breath of fresh air although it's definitely gonna rise back up. Meanwhile heatran and lando-t have taken its place as glue mon of choice and since they are less obnoxious than clefable pre-dlc this is definitely a good thing. And while it's not strictly a defensive mon, ditto having usage this high is a testament to how bulkier play styles are adapting to the overwhelming offensive threats of the tier.
11. The expanded dex makes team building so much more varied than it was prior to the dlc with all the options now available to us. While the genesect and naganadel bans made heatran less mandatory to run,there are still some mons that restrict team building to an unhealthy level, though I expect these pokemon to eventually be banned. Overall, this new meta looks to be exciting and much more diverse than the old one
Obstagoon (guts) is an amazing offensive counter to Ghostrier. Its still outshined overall by Urshifu-S, but its a much better check to Ghostrier and can do some similar things hitting like an absolute truck. They can't get you on the switch with will-o-wisp since you want to be burned anyways and they can't wear you down over the course of the match from switching into Shadow Ball / Hex. It always forces Ghostrier out and gets a free Knock/Facade/CC, which is a very difficult combo to switch into for the vast majority of mons in the meta right now. The best they can do is get you on a double switch since if they see Obstagoon in team preview its such an obvious switch in for Ghostrier, but even then, the first time that happens you are still getting a free flame orb activation.
Classic Guts set
Obstagoon @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly or Adamant
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Switcheroo / Bulk Up / Protect
Edit:
To add to the Zygarde discussion from the last couple pages, Mamoswine can force out any set and and can set up Stealth Rock in this meta fairly well and hits a lot of the most common defoggers really hard. Its certainly more on the niche side, but its not like it doesn't have some OU'esque qualities and it can hit a surprising number of top Mons really hard. Just going from the usage stats just posted, of the top 10 mons it can force out Landurus-i, Heatran, Zygarde, Landorus-t, Pheremosa (needs some chip to be fair), Magearna (exception to Shift Gear), Regieleki, and among others in the top 25 Pex, Tapu Koko, Zapdos, Tornadus-Therian, Dragapult, Garchomp, all don't like being matched up against it for one reason or another. Mamo has its issues with switching into a fair amount of things and gets worn down easily, but it can put a lot of pressure on when it gets in against quite a few things. I'm certainly not saying this makes Zygarde ok, or that its even that good of a check (or in general), but just thought Id mention it since I don't think he was brought up (sorry if I missed it).
I doubt Zygarde stays in the meta that long and I don't think banning it would be a bad choice, but I don't think its the most banworthy mon right now, for whatever thats worth. I have it somewhere between 2nd - 4th most banworthy, probably 2nd or 3rd behind Kyurem-b (seriously hate this thing so much) and possibly Lando-i.
1. How do you feel about the new mons that made it to OU?
2. How do you feel about the pre-dlc mons that saw dips in usage?
3. For both returning mons and new-dlc mons, whose usage surprised you the most?
4. What mons do you believe will continue to see high usage?
5. What mons do you believe will continue to see low/lower usage?
6. What mons do you think are underrated and may see higher usage in the future?
7. What mons do you think are overrated and may see less usage in the future?
8. How do you feel about the most used offensive mons in the tier?
9. How do you feel about the most used defensive mons in the tier?
10. This one isn't entirely related to usage, but if you participated in this weekend's Smogon Tour, and/or in the Tundra Cup, what has caught your attention so far?
11. How do you feel about team building? Does it feel like there are too many things to cover, or are there certain mons that restrict building?
12. I hope you all have a wonderful rest of the day
1.) If you mean the new Pokemon in OU (new from DLC2 and before included), I'd say the only thoughts I have that are different between my post on some of the more potentially actionable Pokemon in the metagame and now is that Kyurem-B is really volatile and powerful. In terms of Pokemon I don't see as broken, I really like Latios atm, especially LO and EBelt sets. I've experimented with the coverage move(s) depending on the team, but EBelt getting STAB Draco + 2 good coverage moves is nice and LO with STABS + Mystical or Sphere is really potent too. Latias does bring way more defensive utility, but Latios brings so much offensive pressure to the table while retaining some defensive utility makes it a really nice Pokemon atm imo. I also enjoy using choiced Kartana sets, moreso Scarf than Band, because Scarf's Speed tier is really good and pressures teams properly worn down with partners like Zygarde and Cinderace. (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-525398 here's a Smogon Tour game with it).
2.) The dip in many of the pre DLC 2 Pokemon's usage is not very surprising, as they were typically OU for that level of the power creep in the metagame, which has since increased. In terms of the new Pokemon that have dipped in usage, it's likely due to the metagame being volatile to them. Examples of this include Lele hating things like Mosa, LandoI, etc being able to offensively pressure it due to its mid Speed tier along with things like Melmetal being a good pivot to it. Another example would be Salamence more or less being outclassed by Dragonite despite its higher Speed. Some of the drops were also a result of new toy syndrome wearing off to a degree, I'm sure, with Pokemon like Regidrago or the Pokemon just being bad, like the ice horse that I don't care enough about to find the name of.
3.) I was most surprised by Celesteela and Galarian Moltres. Celesteela because it can act as a relatively good pivot to LandoI lacking Gravity, non-CB Melmetal, Pheromosa, Garchomp, and Excadrill. Once some Pokemon see bans and the meta develops further, I think it'll become more widely used as it did in SM. Galarian Moltres was because it has a nice niche of a boosting sweeper with either Nasty Plot or Agility (the latter of which was used in multiple Smogon Tour games, especially today). Nasty Plot can break through many teams with its surprisingly good coverage in Dark + Flying and relatively good bulk in tandem with its typing. Agility is the same deal, except it makes for a big threat to more offensive teams, which the tier is currently littered with. Once things start to settle, Galar Moltres may be able to make a splash, although this could very well be a case of a new toy not being prepped for properly compared to others, so we'll have to wait and see.
4.) I think the ones everyone expects to stay in vogue, the 3 most controversial ones (until they're banned probably), Heatran, Urshifu, Magearna, Tapu Koko, and Ditto especially in the current state of the metagame, with it seeing some use in Smogon Tour weeklies on some more bulky teams and even some bulky offenses.
5.) Pretty much what has started to fall to lower tiers now are probably going to continue to struggle as the metagame progresses, with some exceptions like Celesteela and Tapu Lele. Some lower usage OU Pokemon that I expect will stay that way are Mandibuzz and Moltres, since a lot of the Pokemon Mandibuzz checked really well aren't as in vogue rn (Dragapult, Gengar, etc. Spectier beats it with NP + Wisp since Foul Play doesn't break Sub if burnt) and Moltres is kind of a shaky check to a lot of stuff, but still alright on the whole even if niche.
6.) I think Kartana may get more experimental with CB or SD of some sort over Scarf as things begin to settle more. We'll also likely see more Toxapex, Celesteela, and Zapdos, the last of these being when Zyg and LandoI get the boot, since TArrows and the Gravity set of LandoI make its ability to check Grounds really limited, and the resists brought by its typing aren't as valuable in this metagame state.
7.) Dragonite and Regileki for sure, moreso the latter than the former. They both feel like flavor of the month new-toy syndrome Pokemon that will drop off as other, more consistent and powerful choices begin to find their place and make them obsolete. Regileki will still hold a niche on screens probably, but that's really about it and Dnite will be some niche cheese on offensive teams or stall. I'll probably be wrong knowing my luck though.
8.) I made a post earlier about a decent chunk of them, so I'll plug that here to save the readers time. For the few I didn't, Kartana will get better with time, Dragapult is still really good despite less in the spotlight compared to DLC 1 and before, Blaziken has been really underwhelming in my experience and pretty easy to check with all the priority and Pokemon that can take least one hit from it, Cinderace is still pretty good but not broken, and Garchomp is also pretty slept on with its rocks + 3 attacks set and the Scale Shot SD set.
9.) The defensive Pokemon being used right now will likely stay good even as the meta shifts, perhaps Slowbro and Slowking will see a bit of drop in usage, but that's neither here nor there.
10.) Ditto, Galarian Moltres, HO in general being really damn good, and balance / bulky offenses with stuff like Zygarde and Pheremosa becoming more and more common as the rounds went later and later. Tundra Cup wise, not that much, except I've seen Zygarde cheese a decent amount of games.
11.) I like building a lot, and have built a ton so far. Sometimes, it does feel like there are too many things to cover, and you need to accept your losses to certain Pokemon in the builder, which isn't fun, although I felt this way sometimes in SM as well. It'll likely get better as things develop and bans happen. For the last question, Zygarde primarily (I'll make sure to throw Shiinotic on next time though, to make that not happen), Kyurem-B, LandorusI, and Pheremosa. I've had other matchups I've accepted losses to, but they're not as omnipresent as others, which require more attention.
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 308-366 (78.1 - 92.8%)
+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 102-120 (25.8 - 30.4%)
+6 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%)
Kyurem-Black and Pheromosa learn Focus Blast and Zygarde can still win with Toxic or ParaHax, but I'm thinking of this guy while those monsters stay in OU.
Anyone who thinks it's just a piece of shit can be right.
I want to make a post re: Zygarde, Eeveeto's post, and the responses to it in this thread. While there has been a LOT of discusion on Zygarde and I don't want to perpetuate a fruitless cycle of back-and-forth discourse, I do feel I can add to Eeveeto's take (which I largely agree with), and also hopefully encourage insightful responses that can broaden my understaning of other perspectives. Of course, this is just my personal opinion, and not necessarily representative of what the rest of council feels. Currently, I think Zygarde is not quite broken. Not so much, at least, that its deserving of a quick ban right now.
One good point Eeveeto made is that there are many natural ways to limit free opportunities for Zygarde. I won't bother to go over the specifics as Eeveeto already has, but its important to remember that Zygarde does not function in a vacuum. While Zygarde may be able to take full advantage in front of a Heatran or Toxapex or Zapdos, these (and other Pokemon) can often include ways of crippling it on the switch or preventing a set-up even when its in, or perhaps setting something up for later so that if you are able to force Zygarde out and/or nullify the progress it makes with the rest of your team, it will have limited opportunity to come back in later with a good position. Sure, no smart player will let their Zygarde get crippled carelessly. But also, no smart player would give Zygarde a completely free opportunity to do its thing. Some other, more offensive ways offorcing out Zygarde that haven't been touched on would be something like U-Turn cycling with a slower pokemon (e.g. Rillaboom + Flip Turn Pert) to break the sub into a faster pokemon like Latios, or more directly something like Slowbro teleport into infiltrator or moves like icicle spear / triple axel, which I have been seeing used a good bit more lately.
Furthermore, the biggest reason I don't want to ban Zygarde rn is I feel there are so many ways to adapt to Zygarde's influence in the tier, that are currently underexplored, perhaps due to a combination of the influence of other dangerous threats, and lack of time to adapt. Eeveeto did a great job of highlighting some of these underutilized options to directly deal with Zygarde, yet I saw post after post in response to his arguing why the counters Eeveeto listed either were not effective answers, or otherwise misplaced in the OU metagame. However, I think many of these responses operate on flawed logic and missed Eeveeto's point of adapting to the metagame (or not being lazy and using the same stuff over and over, as he puts it). I'll break it into two parts: 1. Adapting to a meta with Zygarde & 2. Covering for Zygarde's different sets. To illustrate my points, I'll rebutt a few of the responses I saw.
1. (Adapting)
- Claiming clanging scales is not used on defensive Kommo-o (or not commonly). Did someone set a rule that you're only allowed to use the smogon analysis set? There's no reason why the most common set now or previously should remain the most common set in a new metagame.
- Claiming that Mew's only niche in OU is an HO lead. Ignoring that this is completely oblivious to other good options for Mew, whats to stop people from using a different set now to beat Zygarde and other pokemon? It is a very flexible pokemon with many good traits, which we have seen adapt to meta shifts numerous times in older generations. Defensive mew in particular has been used a lot previously, how can anyone know one week into a new metagame that it won't rise again?
- GKnot tang. This moves can hit other Pokemon hard too and it stops a top metagame threat, I fail to see why it's not a legitimate option.
- BU Bulu. What's wrong with this? Why would people adamantly use SD > BU if they keep losing to Zygarde? We saw a cycle of adaptation similar to this in SM.
- Calling Buzzwole fringe. I think this opinion is simply uneducated, I think Buzzwole is one of the best Pokemon in the metagame right now.
- Non-OU Pokemon: I'll admit, several of the mons on Eeveeto's list are fringe at best. I'm partial to his side a bit here as I also like to sprinkle non-OU mons into my builds every so often, but I won't claim that all of these mons are definitely viable. However, I could definitely see how some of them could work on certain teams or develop niche uses cases in OU due to other traits. Immediately dismissing these pokemon misses the point: not that all of these are good pokemon in OU, but that there are may be good options lurking in the shadows below OU that we haven't yet put to good use.
Counterargument to this: Zygarde too can also adapt to its new counters, as it has great movepool with fantastic stats to back them. This takes me to my second point:
2. (Covering for different sets)
The other important consideration is that many of these mons can be used in tandem with other soft (or hard) checks to cover for weaknesses to different Zygarde sets, while also covering large swaths of the rest of the metagame. I'll give a few example rebuttals, which I assume are all considering some sort of set-up Zygarde like SubCoil or DD.
- One of the complaints about Buzzwole and many other pokemon was that it loses to Zygarde running toxic (or can get parahaxed through with Glare, which is often unlikely, and in some cases not even really true). However, I'm not convinced its so simple; for example, Buzzwole still does large amounts of damage with Ice Punch, forcing Zygarde to sub-stall if it wishes to build up toxic damage, at which point it cannot boost so the Buzzwole user can switch out and back with little repercussion, resetting the timer. It would also be very reasonable to include cleric support, e.g. with Aromatherapy Clefable. Furthermore, consider that there is opportunity-cost. With toxic, Zygarde likely cannot fit glare, leaving it far less effective vs faster mons, and completely useless vs metagame staples like Clefable. If Zygarde has protect to improve toxic stalling, then it literally cannot boost at all (or cannot sub and loses to knock/status on common defensive mons). Even something like pdef pex could PP stall 16 thousand arrows by itself at that point, forget about using your main counter.
- Iron Tail / Dragon Tail for Fairies/Ice and phazing: These again also come with opportunity cost. Iron Tail is especially egregious, I don't think it makes any sense to run on a SubSetup Zygarde. But even running dragon tail means you will lose a lot of utility and ability to break other counters with glare/tox. It is entirely feasible to have 2+ mons on your team that cover much of the meta and also respond to different Zygarde sets together. One important point that makes this different from something like Magearna, which also has a lot of different sets with different set of counters for each one, is that Zygarde doesn't have the same immediate power or the snowballing ability to immediately punish someone guessing the set incorrectly. Furthermore, many of Zygarde's responses often still have functionality against it even when faced with the appropriate tech option to beat it.
There's no denying that Zygarde is an incredible Pokemon, but I think it definitely deserves to stay in OU for longer before taking any action.
People seem to be thinking that with glare/toxic, Zyg is able to break through Buzz/Unaware Clef/Tang etc. It can if you are extremely lucky but more likely it won't. What glaring/toxic the Buzzwole does though is making it a much shakier to check to something like BU Urshifu or SD Exca or other mons it's supposed to check. A good team will abuse the statused Zyg check pretty well. A cleric can be run on the team (only Clef really) but that's already 2/6 slots taken. Tangrowth loses to any set running rest and MG clef is a shaky check to DD/CB sets. Buzzwole with a cleric is really the only consistent counter and that in my eyes and that makes Zygarde unhealthy
I think Zygarde deserves to be discussed and I personally believes it deserves to be examined in the upcoming survey, but I also believe Landorus-I is the most pressing thing in the current metagame.
Landorus-I is one of the strongest Pokemon in the tier with Sheer Force, demolishing normal walls with various special attacks. Earth Power is a good STAB move to start things off, but Focus Blast can deter otherwise would-be checks such as Blissey, which can get 2HKOd, or Corviknight, Rotom-Heat, and Hydreigon, Sludge Wave can pummel Grass types like Rillaboom, Tapu Bulu, and Tangrowth while also dealing super effecitve damage to Tapu Fini and neutral damage to Latis, Zapdos, and Moltres. It really does not need more coverage beyond these, but it can run Rock Polish to sweep, Stealth Rock to help chip things down, or a fourth attack to further improve its offensive presence.
Standalone, Landorus is already ridiculous I feel. It can be checked by SDef Mandibuzz, SDef Moltres, Latis, and some fringe options like Cresselia, Mantine, SDef Dragonite, and Chansey. This alone is not enough, in my opinion. There are some other ways around it such as intense offensive pressure, priority being able to take it out after some chip -- especially if we are talking Ice Sharders or Grassy Glide Rillaboom, inaccuracy of Focus Blast, and inability to OHKO most Pokemon, thus leaving it susceptible to taking single hits during some sequences.
The thing is that alongside this amazing power and 2HKOing ability, Landorus itself is not super fragile and works on most archetypes, ranging from balance to heavy offense. I feel like this range in viability coupled with its versatility set wise makes it so that a Pokemon with this level of sheer force -- pun intended -- is a bit too much for the metagame.
Yea, I'm fine with discussion of Zygarde and it should be on the radar. I feel like Kyurem-Black should absolutely be on the radar, too, but Landorus-I is probably the most worrisome to me at this moment in time.
While these aren't the regular usage stats, I'll go ahead and leave some questions below:
1. What are the biggest differences between these usage stats and the ladder usage stats posted yesterday (post #376)?
2. What stood out or surprised you the most?
3. Between these tournament usage stats and the ladder usage stats, what common trends appear to be visible in both stats?
As with the Usage Stats of the Tundra Cup Round 1 being up and with the Ladder Usage Stats posted yesterday by Marty, I recognized following Trends, Differences, and furthermore Usage stats which pretty much remained the same.
Tundra Cup Usage & Ladder Usage:
and switched places, whereas Zapdos-G was less used in the Crown Tundra Cup so far, it has more Ladder Usage than its Kantonian counterpart.
As a Pokemon with having the only issue in Ground-types you'd expect more of it, but since Ground-types became a mandatory factor in DLC2 to check this and Tapu Koko and Zygarde, Lando I, Lando T, and Garchomp are really common threats in the Tundra Cup and Ladder alike I think regieleki has it quite tough to get a winrate out of its pocket. However I think as soon as Lando I and Zygarde may leave the Ou tier, I think its winratio will increase - probably not much but I think the Winrate will be noticeable.
and are strong in both Tundra Cup and Ladder, they clearly are one of the most noticeable threats currently and Kyurem-Black is heavily discussed as its DD + Sub-Set is really strong in the current metagame and Ice in itself is a strong offensive typing and KyuremBlack in itself is a very controversial poke.
also stands out to me, as it is not only very common but its Tundra Cup- and Ladder-Usage is pretty much the same, if you compare these stats here and in the Usage-Based-Tier Update Thread. Its pretty clear that this Pokemon is still a very strong pick in the metagame and is threatening to many of the common Pokemon such as Spectrier. Moreover with its incredible speed-tier it can revengekill a lot of fast threats in the current metagame such as Lando I, Zapdos-Galar, choice-locked Zygarde (into Extreme Speed), non-DD-boosted Kyurem-B and it can threaten the likes of Melmetal, Magearna, and Mandibuzz with a burn or paralysis due to Wisp or Twave.
stands out as well here, as its usage is pretty much the same aswell here and on Ladder. I honestly expected more of it with Nasty Plot + Heavy-Duty Boots-Sets coupled with an amazing ability being Regenerator, but I think since the metagame is heavily offensive and Trick Room popped up again due to the arrival of and it has a bit of trouble currently, nontheless, we shouldn't underestimate it, as I think as soon as the metagame finally settles this Pokemon has a chance to thrive.
well it is Clefable after all! I think it's pretty much self-explanatory as to why it has a solid Usage on the Ladder and also in the Crown Tundra Cup. It helps with checking common metagame threats, such as Dragapult, Zygarde, and Urshifu (Single-Strik and Rapid-Strike alike).
Other noticeable Pokemon:
Defines itself as a very good Stealth Rock-Setter and is able to spam Eruption pretty well on especially Teams with Trick Room. Still is a great defensive answer with annoying moves like Knock Off and Scald, crippling many offensive threats. I think its usage will calm down slowly but surely as Gensect left the building of OU, therefore it doesn't need to worry about checking it with Flame Body shenanigans, still serves as a good answer to Heatran and with access to Scorching Sands and packing Roost for recovery. But it still punishes Pokes which pack U-turn due to its ability, hence it can check Lando T, Urshifu, and Pheromosa.
1. What are the biggest differences between these usage stats and the ladder usage stats posted yesterday (post #376)? 2. What stood out or surprised you the most?
3. Between these tournament usage stats and the ladder usage stats, what common trends appear to be visible in both stats?
Naganadel not breaking 10% usage in the ladder or in Tundra cup (ranked 20/21) and having the 2nd lowest win percentage of any mon in the top 25 of Tundra Cup usage behind Tornadus-T (3rd lowest of the top 50). That seems odd for a mon that was so broken that it got a unanimous quick ban vote.
No, but you can bet:
1. Anything it doesn't beat will be abused by one of Zygarde's teammates because Pokemon is a 6v6 game. Zygarde has a narrow pool of checks and they all lose to one move or another, so it's just a matter of picking the correct Zygarde set for your team. It's not like missing out on any of these moves impedes it from running over nearly the entire game, citation: You can actually run RestTalk Zygarde and it will still sweep any team without a dedicated answer to it.
2. By the time you learn that it's Iron Tail not Toxic you've already lost your check. The only way around this is to run multiple of Zygarde's narrow list of checks. Which nicely feeds into your second fallacy:
Running an objectively terrible set just for Zygarde sounds smart until you remember that not every team has Zygarde on it. And if you find any examples where Bulk Up Rest Lando-T or Physically Defensive Ice Beam Mew help you in any other matchup over running objectively better sets let me know.
I can't believe you're actually calling adaption and metagame growth a 'fallacy'. Pro-tip for you newer players here: you are allowed to run sets that are not posted on smogon.com/dex. I suppose if you joined only a year ago then you wouldn't have the experience to know what Mew is capable of, and what it has done in past generations. Do you know that it has been considered to be the most versatile and flexible pokemon in existence for 2 decades? And you have the gall to say 'mew can only be used on HO.' And that ice beam is a bad move on it.
The meta is so damn young right now, and almost nothing new has been explored tech wise because we've all been to hyped up on offensive new toys. Give it some time, at least more than a week please, before making wild exaggerated claims like 'we have no answers left!'
And lay off the hyperbole, too.
"citation: You can actually run RestTalk Zygarde and it will still sweep any team without a dedicated answer to it."
?ummm. Who are you citing here? Yourself? just then when you wrote this line?? lol
Naganadel not breaking 10% usage in the ladder or in Tundra cup (ranked 20/21) and having the 2nd lowest win percentage of any mon in the top 25 of Tundra Cup usage behind Tornadus-T (3rd lowest of the top 50). That seems odd for a mon that was so broken that it got a unanimous quick ban vote.
I think the reason Naganadel was not used a lot was for the fret of heatran being everywhere. Heatran was on 1 out of every 4 teams on the ladder and in the Tundra Cup. Nasty plot + Beast Boost allows it to create a snowball effect and blow through teams, once it hits +2 and get a kill, only heatran and a couple of assault vest mons can take a hit and kill in revenge. Nagandel can even 2HKO Heatran with Draco at +2
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 306-362 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
For Heatran to KO a Naganadel with earth power,
240 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Naganadel: 252-298 (87.8 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
You start to lose bulk with SpAtk, Naganadel guarantees a 2HKO on Tran with Draco
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 92 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 306-362 (88.4 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
If Naganadel can 2HKO its best counter, then I think that it is a problem and that is why it was banned.
It was also lower on the ladder because of the earlier ban.
Regieleki not being higher is weird since it's very strong and fast,its probably for the fact it gets hard walled by ground types and letting zygarde get a free switch is never a good idea
Genesect not being 100% usage is surprising but the other thing is clef not being that high as it still has a lot of good traits to abuse of so I expect it to get to be in the top 5 at minimum even without bans
for the brokens
A trend I see is that naga even though it was banned with genesect is at top 20 which I think is because cb genesect was spammed a lot and its powerful espeed kept it in check
I want to make a post re: Zygarde, Eeveeto's post, and the responses to it in this thread. While there has been a LOT of discusion on Zygarde and I don't want to perpetuate a fruitless cycle of back-and-forth discourse, I do feel I can add to Eeveeto's take (which I largely agree with), and also hopefully encourage insightful responses that can broaden my understaning of other perspectives. Of course, this is just my personal opinion, and not necessarily representative of what the rest of council feels. Currently, I think Zygarde is not quite broken. Not so much, at least, that its deserving of a quick ban right now.
One good point Eeveeto made is that there are many natural ways to limit free opportunities for Zygarde. I won't bother to go over the specifics as Eeveeto already has, but its important to remember that Zygarde does not function in a vacuum. While Zygarde may be able to take full advantage in front of a Heatran or Toxapex or Zapdos, these (and other Pokemon) can often include ways of crippling it on the switch or preventing a set-up even when its in, or perhaps setting something up for later so that if you are able to force Zygarde out and/or nullify the progress it makes with the rest of your team, it will have limited opportunity to come back in later with a good position. Sure, no smart player will let their Zygarde get crippled carelessly. But also, no smart player would give Zygarde a completely free opportunity to do its thing. Some other, more offensive ways offorcing out Zygarde that haven't been touched on would be something like U-Turn cycling with a slower pokemon (e.g. Rillaboom + Flip Turn Pert) to break the sub into a faster pokemon like Latios, or more directly something like Slowbro teleport into infiltrator or moves like icicle spear / triple axel, which I have been seeing used a good bit more lately.
Furthermore, the biggest reason I don't want to ban Zygarde rn is I feel there are so many ways to adapt to Zygarde's influence in the tier, that are currently underexplored, perhaps due to a combination of the influence of other dangerous threats, and lack of time to adapt. Eeveeto did a great job of highlighting some of these underutilized options to directly deal with Zygarde, yet I saw post after post in response to his arguing why the counters Eeveeto listed either were not effective answers, or otherwise misplaced in the OU metagame. However, I think many of these responses operate on flawed logic and missed Eeveeto's point of adapting to the metagame (or not being lazy and using the same stuff over and over, as he puts it). I'll break it into two parts: 1. Adapting to a meta with Zygarde & 2. Covering for Zygarde's different sets. To illustrate my points, I'll rebutt a few of the responses I saw.
1. (Adapting)
- Claiming clanging scales is not used on defensive Kommo-o (or not commonly). Did someone set a rule that you're only allowed to use the smogon analysis set? There's no reason why the most common set now or previously should remain the most common set in a new metagame.
- Claiming that Mew's only niche in OU is an HO lead. Ignoring that this is completely oblivious to other good options for Mew, whats to stop people from using a different set now to beat Zygarde and other pokemon? It is a very flexible pokemon with many good traits, which we have seen adapt to meta shifts numerous times in older generations. Defensive mew in particular has been used a lot previously, how can anyone know one week into a new metagame that it won't rise again?
- GKnot tang. This moves can hit other Pokemon hard too and it stops a top metagame threat, I fail to see why it's not a legitimate option.
- BU Bulu. What's wrong with this? Why would people adamantly use SD > BU if they keep losing to Zygarde? We saw a cycle of adaptation similar to this in SM.
- Calling Buzzwole fringe. I think this opinion is simply uneducated, I think Buzzwole is one of the best Pokemon in the metagame right now.
- Non-OU Pokemon: I'll admit, several of the mons on Eeveeto's list are fringe at best. I'm partial to his side a bit here as I also like to sprinkle non-OU mons into my builds every so often, but I won't claim that all of these mons are definitely viable. However, I could definitely see how some of them could work on certain teams or develop niche uses cases in OU due to other traits. Immediately dismissing these pokemon misses the point: not that all of these are good pokemon in OU, but that there are may be good options lurking in the shadows below OU that we haven't yet put to good use.
Counterargument to this: Zygarde too can also adapt to its new counters, as it has great movepool with fantastic stats to back them. This takes me to my second point:
2. (Covering for different sets)
The other important consideration is that many of these mons can be used in tandem with other soft (or hard) checks to cover for weaknesses to different Zygarde sets, while also covering large swaths of the rest of the metagame. I'll give a few example rebuttals, which I assume are all considering some sort of set-up Zygarde like SubCoil or DD.
- One of the complaints about Buzzwole and many other pokemon was that it loses to Zygarde running toxic (or can get parahaxed through with Glare, which is often unlikely, and in some cases not even really true). However, I'm not convinced its so simple; for example, Buzzwole still does large amounts of damage with Ice Punch, forcing Zygarde to sub-stall if it wishes to build up toxic damage, at which point it cannot boost so the Buzzwole user can switch out and back with little repercussion, resetting the timer. It would also be very reasonable to include cleric support, e.g. with Aromatherapy Clefable. Furthermore, consider that there is opportunity-cost. With toxic, Zygarde likely cannot fit glare, leaving it far less effective vs faster mons, and completely useless vs metagame staples like Clefable. If Zygarde has protect to improve toxic stalling, then it literally cannot boost at all (or cannot sub and loses to knock/status on common defensive mons). Even something like pdef pex could PP stall 16 thousand arrows by itself at that point, forget about using your main counter.
- Iron Tail / Dragon Tail for Fairies/Ice and phazing: These again also come with opportunity cost. Iron Tail is especially egregious, I don't think it makes any sense to run on a SubSetup Zygarde. But even running dragon tail means you will lose a lot of utility and ability to break other counters with glare/tox. It is entirely feasible to have 2+ mons on your team that cover much of the meta and also respond to different Zygarde sets together. One important point that makes this different from something like Magearna, which also has a lot of different sets with different set of counters for each one, is that Zygarde doesn't have the same immediate power or the snowballing ability to immediately punish someone guessing the set incorrectly. Furthermore, many of Zygarde's responses often still have functionality against it even when faced with the appropriate tech option to beat it.
There's no denying that Zygarde is an incredible Pokemon, but I think it definitely deserves to stay in OU for longer before taking any action.
While I respect your overall opinion, I believe that you have a few cracks on your wall of counterarguments regarding Zygarde.
Alot of people who are against a ban/quickban often forget that unlike most setup sweepers, Zygarde has utility unlike any other setup sweeper in the tier. I can function in an early/mid game scenario where it spreads paralysis or Toxic which in the long game will be crippled for it to sweep later. Even if it fails to sweep over the course of a game, it would’ve already crippled the team enough to where it’s teammates will clean up for it, cause whenever we talking about Zygarde or any other problematic mon, we need to take into account that this is a 6v6 game. As for some of your other points
No: 1 (Adapting)
There’s a difference between using different sets to combat the meta (Ex: Clef going from SpD to PhysD in IoA, Pult running Darts for Volc and Blissey, and Corv running BB over Body Press for Volc, Rilla, and Amoonguss), and using different sets to combat one specific threat (Ex: SpD Drill for Mag and Shed Shell for Duggy). The sets that Eeveeto mentioned outside of GKnot Tang and maybe Ice Beam Mew were either outclassed by other moves or only affective against Zygarde. Why run Clangorous Scales over Poison Jab which hits fairies (especially Fini), Toxic to cripple Zapdos/Torn, and Taunt to halt opposing rockers and/or Defoggers? BU Bulu doesn’t check/counter anything relevant that SD/Band Bulu doesn’t while being outclassed by these sets. Buzzwole is def better than in USUM, but its far from one of the best. Due to the lack of utility (Knock, hazards, Hazard Removal, pivot moves) it’s harder to splash on teams like other physical walls (Ex: Pex, Clef, Defensive Lando, etc) While I do believe that some of the non-OU mons mentioned are viable, alot of them are either unviable/outclassed, or difficult to splash on most teams.
Now on to the next argument.
2: (Covering for different sets)
Yes Zygarde can’t run everything it wants, yes it won’t sweep every game, but it’s gonna to impact the battle. Even if it doesn’t kill anything it still leaves holes for it’s teammates to take advantage of. One big problem with Zygarde is that you won’t know at first glance what set it is, which lets Zygarde pick and choose it’s checks/counters. Do you have Clef as your Zygarde answer? It turns out to be Band or Glares your Clef, suddenly you don’t have a safe switch in to Zygarde. Zygarde isn’t gonna get two DD/Coils against Buzzwole. Furthermore, even if you reset the timer, your Buzzwole is still crippled for mid/late game. As for Clef, Heal Bell/Aromatherapy only have 8pp meaning that Zygarde will eventually win the long game, and Clef rarely runs Heal Bell outside of stall which mostly uses Unaware Clef (which is crippled by Toxic). I agree that Zygarde doesn’t have the ability to snowball like say, Spectier, but remember that Zygarde has utility outside of sweeping such as spreading paralysis and toxic. It not only benefits teammates, but Zygarde can sweep later when it’s checks/counters are crippled.
I do agree however that Zygarde shouldn’t be quickbanned. There is simply too much fish to fry rn (Lando-I and Kyurem-Broke), but a future suspect test will be necessary imo.
I lean more towards banning Zygarde than not but some of the points being discussed here to validate the notion that zygarde is broken just feel weak...
At present the set were discussing for it is Thousand Arrows, Iron Tail, Dragon Dance, Substitute, Glare, Coil, Toxic, Dragon Tail, Outrage with a band + lefties.... C'mon ppl.
Zygarde in a vacuum doesn't seem broken but in this current metagame with all of the possible offensive threats there is simply less room to fit the mons that do check/beat it consistently while addressing all of the other strong threats in the meta but it feels like this can honestly be said for quite a few mons.
A meta with this many offensive threats is going to put a strain on defensive counterplay period and discussion of how that affects the meta as a whole feels a bit more relevant than just cherry picking possible issues.
Zygarde is like Protean Greninja or Libero Cinderace in the sense it picks what it loses to. You don’t know if your answer for it is actually an answer until it’s too late, and even if it is an answer you still get crippled for the rest of the game by Toxic or Glare.
I know a couple of pages were discussed how Zygarde is potentially problematic, but I think Kyurem-B is actually the bigger threat as it can even check Zygarde itself. It only really needs three moves: DD/Icicle Spear/Fusion Bolt to terrorize the whole tier and you can even run Roost as the last move. Kyurem-B > Zygarde IMO.
You might be tired of talking about Zygarde, but Eeveeto and FlamingVictini make some really good points and I believe that some posters are being dismissive just because they're already convinced that Zygarde is broken without critically thinking about it.
I think the most dismissive posts by far are the ones which go "but you can just run Iron Tail/Dragon Tail/Toxic." As always with versatile Pokemon, it's not the versatility alone that breaks them. Picking your own checks and counters is certainly a strength, but it's not enough to merit the "broken" label. Magearna was infinitely versatile, but it was the specs set that really pushed it over the top. Cinderace was theoretically versatile, but it really only ended up needing a single set to deal with the metagame pre-DLC2.
Just take a look at pre-DLC2 Volcarona. It could basically pick and choose its own counters too. If it ran Psychic, then it could deal with Toxapex and Kommo-O. If it ran Safeguard, then it could deal with Blissey, Rotom-H, and other Toxic carriers. Offensive Bug Buzz variants could deal with offensive Tyranitar. And unlike Zygarde, Volcarona put much more offensive pressure on your team if you lacked the proper check or counter. If you were banking on Rotom-H Toxic'ing Volc to deal with it but oops! it has safeguard! sorry!, then bam, you just lost the game, 6-0 sweep. On the spot just like that, unless you had Azumarill or Sucker Punch Urshifu to revenge kill it (or perhaps the fringe Lycanroc-Dusk).
Why wasn't Volcarona broken? Because a single Volcarona set was never too overwhelming. There were enough Toxapex, Tyranitar, Blissey, and Rotom-H in the metagame overall so that Volc was never a guaranteed win con.
When it comes to checks, counters, etc, it's not just about one team, it's about the metagame. Any given team might struggle to break, check, or counter a particular Pokemon like Volcarona, but if the metagame as a whole has enough answers spread out across different games, then that Pokemon won't be too problematic.
On a related note, another person dismissed Dragon Pulse Heatran above. While that option in particular sounds really silly on paper, Pokemon picking a coverage move for a common switch-in isn't that unusual. Urshifu used to run Poison Jab or Iron Head almost exclusively for Clefable and Togekiss (and a few other niche fairies) even though Wicked Blow/Sucker Punch/U-turn/Close Combat was clearly superior against the field.
How many Pokemon have run a single coverage move just for Toxapex over the months (see Volcarona above)?
Zygarde is undoubtedly a top 10 Pokemon, so it's worth preparing for explicitly.
Finally, a single Zygarde set just doesn't have that much pure power behind it. Someone above said that Zygarde's Thousand Arrows "breaks the rules of the game." Does it really though?
Thousand Arrows is a Ground move that ignores Flying's Ground immunity. So it's a move with a single resist in Grass, with 90 BP off of a 100 Atk stat. Compare this to say Hex, which also only has 1 resist (Dark) and 1 immunity (Normal), but potentially much higher base power (130 BP on statused Pokemon), with strong special attackers like Gengar/Spectrier. Gen 4 DPP had Dragons with 140-BP and 120-BP Draco Meteors and Outrages only resisted by Steel, and those Dragons had attacking stats through the roof (some of those dragons did get banned, but not all!).
Ground's big draw as an attacking type is hitting Steel/Fire/Rock/Electric SE, unlike Dragon and Ghost which mostly hit neutral, but Flying type nullifies this for Thousand Arrows (so e.g., Zapdos will take neutral damage).
Now of course it could be said that Thousand Arrows allows Zygarde to fit other strong coverage moves onto its set, which is absolutely true, and Glare is the biggest elephant in the room to point at here. If you want to make an argument for why it might truly be broken, here's one problem I've seen around 1700+: Zygarde + Hex Spectrier is really strong. Glare combined with Zygarde's bulk guarantees that you're getting status spreads, and then your Scarf Spectrier will just clean house with a 130-BP STAB move with Moxie boosts. It's truly difficult to stop in a way that Will-O-Wisp Dragapult never was, and Zygarde is mostly at fault because of how easy it is to fit Glare onto a Zygarde set (because of Thousand Arrows coverage).
I know a couple of pages were discussed how Zygarde is potentially problematic, but I think Kyurem-B is actually the bigger threat as it can even check Zygarde itself. It only really needs three moves: DD/Icicle Spear/Fusion Bolt to terrorize the whole tier and you can even run Roost as the last move. Kyurem-B > Zygarde IMO.
I mean, you kind of stated the issue. Kyurem-B checks Zygarde, so if it's banned first, isn't Zygarde even more problematic than it already is? On another note, although this info is somewhat outdated and unreliable due to Naganadel and Genesect's bans, Landorus-I and Zygarde had higher usage stats than KB, sitting at 25%, 21%, and 18%, respectively. With that said, KB is indeed extremely strong rn. I can't say I know for certain which of the three is most concerning for the meta as a whole, I'm only a third rate battler with a fourth rate team. Now, to add some other discussion to this post not regarding Zygarde, since I don't think I have anything more of worth to contribute to that discussion.
The addition of Mystical Fire and Aura Sphere really did this 'mon justice, especially in a metagame where it got Hidden Power taken away. With the ability to actually hit its previous counters (such as Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, and Heatran), as well as Pursuit no longer being distributed, you really can't afford to sleep on this thing anymore. While I don't think it's perfect, I do think that after some more stabilizing bans/suspects, it'll be one of the best 'mons in the tier.
While the return of Blaziken to OU this gen has been amazing, the true best starter of the generation has also made strides. There's not too much to say about this thing other than Flip Turn was a massive plus, and it has some pretty solid stats for something that's been powercreeped for over ten years. So long as Regieleki and Melmetal remain as top tier threats, I think Swampert has a very viable niche in OU.
I don't expect either of these to stay in UU for long. Victini lost access to Z-Celebrate, you really can't deny that hurts seeing as the uncertainty of either Band, Scarf, or Z was what made Victini such a little menace last gen. However, Scorching Sands and HDB do make for an interesting change of pace, making Victini more of a jack of all trades, with the ability to actually break Heatran without relying on Focus Miss. As for Volcarona, well, no Hidden Power makes it really hard for this thing to even pretend like it can deal with Heatran, and Toxapex is equally as annoying unless you use a moveslot for Psychic. I still think it's good, but Volcarona is probably going to struggle a lot to clean up games this gen, probably more than any gen since its debut.
Which pokemon do you guys think will come back to ou eventually? My bet is on victini, kommo-o, and galarian articuno all coming back to ou.
(oh and by the way, can we see if zamazenta as a whole can drop to ou? Because we really don't know how overbearing it would be if at all. I was just thinking that would be a neat suspect test after we get zygarde, landorus-incarnate, and kyurem black banned.)
Which pokemon do you guys think will come back to ou eventually? My bet is on victini, kommo-o, and galarian articuno all coming back to ou.
(oh and by the way, can we see if zamazenta as a whole can drop to ou? Because we really don't know how overbearing it would be if at all. I was just thinking that would be a neat suspect test after we get zygarde, landorus-incarnate, and kyurem black banned.)
Imo Volcarona and Tapu Lele are going to make their returns. Also I'm all in favor of unbanning Zama-C but not sure about Zama-hero. BUT if we are going to unban either I'd say we do it once the madness is over and the broken stuff are all cleared out.
One thing I’m concerned about is a chicken and egg situation.
If so many things seem broken because of how offensive the meta is and might become more manageable as and when things get banned, how do we know what to ban first?
If A isn’t as broken without B but B also wouldn’t be as broken without A then how can we ban one before the other?
or choose which one is worse while both of them are in the tier. There's not a great answer, think weather abuser + summoner. If one of the pokemon (dugtrio as an example) supports a lot of other pokemon very well and/or is uncompetitive, ban that one. As Monky said, it's a case-by-case basis, but in general, if the one pokemon stands by itself and the other doesn't then ban the one that stands by itself.
and 
switched places, whereas Zapdos-G was less used in the Crown Tundra Cup so far, it has more Ladder Usage than its Kantonian counterpart.
and 
are strong in both Tundra Cup and Ladder, they clearly are one of the most noticeable threats currently and Kyurem-Black is heavily discussed as its DD + Sub-Set is really strong in the current metagame and Ice in itself is a strong offensive typing and KyuremBlack in itself is a very controversial poke.
also stands out to me, as it is not only very common but its Tundra Cup- and Ladder-Usage is pretty much the same, if you compare these stats here and in the Usage-Based-Tier Update Thread. Its pretty clear that this Pokemon is still a very strong pick in the metagame and is threatening to many of the common Pokemon such as Spectrier. Moreover with its incredible speed-tier it can revengekill a lot of fast threats in the current metagame such as Lando I, Zapdos-Galar, choice-locked Zygarde (into Extreme Speed), non-DD-boosted Kyurem-B and it can threaten the likes of Melmetal, Magearna, and Mandibuzz with a burn or paralysis due to Wisp or Twave.
stands out as well here, as its usage is pretty much the same aswell here and on Ladder. I honestly expected more of it with Nasty Plot + Heavy-Duty Boots-Sets coupled with an amazing ability being Regenerator, but I think since the metagame is heavily offensive and Trick Room popped up again due to the arrival of 
and 
it has a bit of trouble currently, nontheless, we shouldn't underestimate it, as I think as soon as the metagame finally settles this Pokemon has a chance to thrive.
well it is Clefable after all! I think it's pretty much self-explanatory as to why it has a solid Usage on the Ladder and also in the Crown Tundra Cup. It helps with checking common metagame threats, such as Dragapult, Zygarde, and Urshifu (Single-Strik and Rapid-Strike alike).
Defines itself as a very good Stealth Rock-Setter and is able to spam Eruption pretty well on especially Teams with Trick Room.
Still is a great defensive answer with annoying moves like Knock Off and Scald, crippling many offensive threats.
I think its usage will calm down slowly but surely as Gensect left the building of OU, therefore it doesn't need to worry about checking it with Flame Body shenanigans, still serves as a good answer to Heatran and with access to Scorching Sands and packing Roost for recovery. But it still punishes Pokes which pack U-turn due to its ability, hence it can check Lando T, Urshifu, and Pheromosa.
