Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Finchinator]

We sure as hell ain't bringing Arena Trap back anytime soon. Let's move on to other discussion topics, please and thank you.

If you have a serious inquiry on this matter, feel free to PM me/council.

 

[Jordy]

We sure as hell ain't bringing Arena Trap back anytime soon. Let's move on to other discussion topics, please and thank you.

If you have a serious inquiry on this matter, feel free to PM me/council.

 

[Spyro]

Are you tired of seeing Landorus-T? still have trauma from when Landorus-T ruled the gen 5 6 and 7 metagames? Don´t know where to seek therapy for fear of getting laughed at? wish you could get your revenge on that bully? Guys I present to you

The anti Landorus T post.

Zapdos-Galar @ Choice Band/Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Stomping Tantrum

Fuck Landorus-T thinking he can switch into any physical move and just prolong the game. Intimidate actually gives Zapdos a +1 boost so if you're looking for revenge then use this Pokemon.

Urshifu @ Choice Band
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch

To Urshifu-S there's nothing intimidating about Landorus-T and Wicked Blow will quickly bring it down to it's knees.

Excadrill @ Soft Sand
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Magnet Rise
- Earthquake

Normally when Excadrill is on the field, It's an easy switch for Landorus but not with this set as it actually walls Landorus and proceeds to dance in it's face. Also sets up on things like Garchomp.

Dragapult @ Life Orb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Darts
- Phantom Force
- Fire Blast/Whatever

I know I know, Dragapult on really uses DD in Natdex but I just think it´s funny how many things don't care about Landorus-T.

Other options: There's Dragonite and Bsharp even Lucario but that's not OU viable. Only use Inner Focus Dragonite if you have a serious problem with Landorus lowering your attack. In National Dex the list is even bigger for example Mega Lopunny ignoring Intimidate as well lol.

 

[Vengeance417]

Incineroar's highly underrated right now and deserves to see more usage. Probably one of the best Spectrier checks thanks to its Ghost-resistance, great Special bulk, and immunity to Will-o-Wisp. +2 Mud Shot only does like 63% max to its SpDef set while Knock Off KOes in return. I've also enjoyed using the combination of Intimidate + Parting Shot to keep DD Kyurem-B's Attack down, bringing in an offensive check that can handle it. Cool mon, highly recommend it.

 

[Red Raven]

Are you tired of seeing Landorus-T? still have trauma from when Landorus-T ruled the gen 5 6 and 7 metagames? Don´t know where to seek therapy for fear of getting laughed at? wish you could get your revenge on that bully? Guys I present to you

The anti Landorus T post.

Zapdos-Galar @ Choice Band/Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Stomping Tantrum

Fuck Landorus-T thinking he can switch into any physical move and just prolong the game. Intimidate actually gives Zapdos a +1 boost so if you're looking for revenge then use this Pokemon.

Urshifu @ Choice Band
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch

To Urshifu-S there's nothing intimidating about Landorus-T and Wicked Blow will quickly bring it down to it's knees.

Excadrill @ Soft Sand
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Magnet Rise
- Earthquake

Normally when Excadrill is on the field, It's an easy switch for Landorus but not with this set as it actually walls Landorus and proceeds to dance in it's face. Also sets up on things like Garchomp.

Dragapult @ Life Orb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Darts
- Phantom Force
- Fire Blast/Whatever

I know I know, Dragapult on really uses DD in Natdex but I just think it´s funny how many things don't care about Landorus-T.

Other options: There's Dragonite and Bsharp even Lucario but that's not OU viable. Only use Inner Focus Dragonite if you have a serious problem with Landorus lowering your attack. In National Dex the list is even bigger for example Mega Lopunny ignoring Intimidate as well lol.

Someone really hates Landorus lol. I can't really blame you as Landorus as rather annoying to deal with. In fact, I think I have an idea that I have yet to try out that would turn Landorus into setup fodder. The plan is sitrus berry, scale shot, Garchomp. The plan is send Chomp out on something it scares out and lure in Landorus and use swords dance. If Landorus goes for earthquake, Garchomp survives and heals up with the berry. If Landorus is scarfed, then go for scale shot as you take another earthquake and live it again, then be faster and finish it off with another scale shot. If it's not scarfed Lando, then just go for another swords dance before destroying it with a +3 scale shot. Naturally, this would only work if Urshifu is dead. I don't really have the chance to try this since Landorus therian isn't that common in my elo range for some reason

 

[kosecant]

Someone really hates Landorus lol. I can't really blame you as Landorus as rather annoying to deal with. In fact, I think I have an idea that I have yet to try out that would turn Landorus into setup fodder. The plan is sitrus berry, scale shot, Garchomp. The plan is send Chomp out on something it scares out and lure in Landorus and use swords dance. If Landorus goes for earthquake, Garchomp survives and heals up with the berry. If Landorus is scarfed, then go for scale shot as you take another earthquake and live it again, then be faster and finish it off with another scale shot. If it's not scarfed Lando, then just go for another swords dance before destroying it with a +3 scale shot. Naturally, this would only work if Urshifu is dead. I don't really have the chance to try this since Landorus therian isn't that common in my elo range for some reason

Landorus isn't very common because it honestly is only ok in this meta. There are so many good ground type pokemon, and intimidate just isn't as dominant as it used to be. Once the meta settles a bit (and if pheramosa gets banned) Lando may rise again, but for now there are just better pokemon to be running.

 

[robofiend]

I agree, can't make sense of Landorus-T when all of the meta's strong physical attackers (Urshifu, Pheramosa, G-Zapdos, Kartana, Zygarde, Dragapult, etc.) all either have abilities that negate intimidate, coverage moves to delete or disable it, or simply have the raw firepower to break it down with little risk to themselves. Lando's lack of intrinsic healing and shallow-ish movepool do not help it in this meta.

There also are so many mons like Buzzwole, Corviknight, Zapdos, Moltres, Slowbro, Pex, Heatran, Mandi that fill defensive niches while also easily covering Landorus-T, it's just really hard to want to use Lando except maybe as a breaker or cleaner, but again it's coverage is really really bad compared to these other options.

 

[Red Raven]

That's true. The lack of a z fly only makes things worse for Landorus since it can no longer use its flying type to attack and I agree that intimidate doesn't really help it that much. It even took over half damage from a Kartana leaf blade in one of my earlier battles. I will say this though, I think the real reason why Landorus isn't that good as last gens is because of heavy duty boots. The mons that it threatens out like Tornadus and Zapdos no longer have to fear getting worn down and can stay on Landorus all day, provided he doesn't have knock off, which I think he rarely does as far as I've noticed. That's not mentioning how Buzzwall is very common to stop the Zygarde and Kyurem running around which has the added benefit of stopping him like robofiend said. I also agree with what DutroPodoboo said as Landorus' kit just isn't suited to deal with the very balanced mons running around

 

[shadowpea]

Lol we all spend our time writing posts about Pokemon and the metagame and Finch just say "We sure as hell ain't bringing Arena Trap back anytime soon" and gets 29 likes and 3 molas.

Now to "move on to other discussion topics"

Moltres @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Flamethrower
- Scorching Sands / Air Slash / Hurricane
- Roost
- Defog / Toxic / Will-O-Wisp / U-Turn / Whatever you feel like
​

Moltres has historically been overshadowed by that prickhead Zapdos. Zapdos had the apparantly better defensive typing, not as large of a SR weakness, and was just more splashable than Moltres. However, this generation brought some shiny new boots which Moltres was dying to try out. With its new boots, Moltres becomes immune to Stealth Rock. On top of that, Flame Body deterrs Knock Off users as they are afraid of gettiing burnt. Moltres' defensive typing, which was previously generally inferior to Zapdos', now have its own merits, most notably packing resistances to Fairy and Fire as well as a neutrality to Ice. Also, while it's not much, Moltres have 5 more base defense than Zapdos at the cost of 5 less special defense. Flame Body is honestly an amazing ability for a Pokemon like this, as it just abuses Pokemon like Pheromosa to fish for burn (and god forbid if it tries to hit it with Triple Axel). It also punishes U-Turn users greatly for obvious reasons. Flamethrower is preferred over Fire Blast due to accuracy, and Pokemon like Moltres generally prefer accuracy to power. Scorching Sands provides coverage to Heatran and any Electric switchins (besides Zapdos). On the other hand, Air Slash or Hurricane provides Flying coverage and STAB. Hurricane is mentioned because Air Slash is pathetically weak and also it helps against rain. Roost is mandatory to basically any Moltres set and for obvious reasons. It also take advantage of mons like Melmetal and roosts off the Flying-type, so that moves like Thunder Punch is no longer super effective. The last slot can really be customized to your liking. Defog is the preferred option if you don't have another defogger already, as Moltres scares away some common setters like Ferrothorn and Heatran (assuming Scorching Sands). Other than that, Moltres have quite a support movepool. Toxic and Will-O-Wisp are to mess with your opponents, U-Turn is for momentum, and it also have options like Tailwind, screens, Safeguard, Whirlwind/Roar, and even weather (though why would you use that when you have Torkoal and Pelipper). The EVs are to outspeed max speed neutral Magnezone and Aegislash.

Moltres imo is an excellent defensive and support mon. As you can see, Moltres' good bulk, nice ability, useful defensive (and offensive!) typing, and large support movepool allows it to more easily fit on teams. Notably, it checks many prominant physical attackers like Pheromosa and Melmetal. Moltres also gives valuable team support, whether that may be removing hazards, spreading status, or gaining momentum. Finally, a wall with self-sustaining recovery is a good thing, as any Heatran user will tell you. Of course, there is still the decision of whether to use this or Zapdos (or something like Mandibuzz), and in many situations you would indeed want to use something else. However, do consider Moltres, and you will be surprised about how much it brings to the table and how well it performs in practice. This generation, Moltres is not only viable, but it's pretty good. Never thought I'd see the day!

 

[Red Raven]

Lol we all spend our time writing posts about Pokemon and the metagame and Finch just say "We sure as hell ain't bringing Arena Trap back anytime soon" and gets 29 likes and 3 molas.

Now to "move on to other discussion topics"

View attachment 292216
Moltres @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Flamethrower
- Scorching Sands / Air Slash / Hurricane
- Roost
- Defog / Toxic / Will-O-Wisp / U-Turn / Whatever you feel like
​

Moltres has historically been overshadowed by that prickhead Zapdos. Zapdos had the apparantly better defensive typing, not as large of a SR weakness, and was just more splashable than Moltres. However, this generation brought some shiny new boots which Moltres was dying to try out. With its new boots, Moltres becomes immune to Stealth Rock. On top of that, Flame Body deterrs Knock Off users as they are afraid of gettiing burnt. Moltres' defensive typing, which was previously generally inferior to Zapdos', now have its own merits, most notably packing resistances to Fairy and Fire as well as a neutrality to Ice. Also, while it's not much, Moltres have 5 more base defense than Zapdos at the cost of 5 less special defense. Flame Body is honestly an amazing ability for a Pokemon like this, as it just abuses Pokemon like Pheromosa to fish for burn (and god forbid if it tries to hit it with Triple Axel). It also punishes U-Turn users greatly for obvious reasons. Flamethrower is preferred over Fire Blast due to accuracy, and Pokemon like Moltres generally prefer accuracy to power. Scorching Sands provides coverage to Heatran and any Electric switchins (besides Zapdos). On the other hand, Air Slash or Hurricane provides Flying coverage and STAB. Hurricane is mentioned because Air Slash is pathetically weak and also it helps against rain. Roost is mandatory to basically any Moltres set and for obvious reasons. It also take advantage of mons like Melmetal and roosts off the Flying-type, so that moves like Thunder Punch is no longer super effective. The last slot can really be customized to your liking. Defog is the preferred option if you don't have another defogger already, as Moltres scares away some common setters like Ferrothorn and Heatran (assuming Scorching Sands). Other than that, Moltres have quite a support movepool. Toxic and Will-O-Wisp are to mess with your opponents, U-Turn is for momentum, and it also have options like Tailwind, screens, Safeguard, Whirlwind/Roar, and even weather (though why would you use that when you have Torkoal and Pelipper). The EVs are to outspeed max speed neutral Magnezone and Aegislash.

Moltres imo is an excellent defensive and support mon. As you can see, Moltres' good bulk, nice ability, useful defensive (and offensive!) typing, and large support movepool allows it to more easily fit on teams. Notably, it checks many prominant physical attackers like Pheromosa and Melmetal. Moltres also gives valuable team support, whether that may be removing hazards, spreading status, or gaining momentum. Finally, a wall with self-sustaining recovery is a good thing, as any Heatran user will tell you. Of course, there is still the decision of whether to use this or Zapdos (or something like Mandibuzz), and in many situations you would indeed want to use something else. However, do consider Moltres, and you will be surprised about how much it brings to the table and how well it performs in practice. This generation, Moltres is not only viable, but it's pretty good. Never thought I'd see the day!

God how I just want to try out Moltres but I can't because of the dumb Zygarde and Kyurem around. As far as I've noticed, Moltres is a very good mon this generation, just like you said. Heavy duty boots gave it what it needs to be defensive. I will disagree about knock off though but that does depend on who uses it. I think Moltres would be more afraid of losing its boots than the opponent being burned since Moltres is next to dead weight without its boots. That being said, I will add my own thoughts and say that it would probably be best to pair it with another defogger in the event you lost your boots. Also, that makes two of us. I also thought Moltres would never be ou after stealth rocks were introduced

 

[Hematemesis]

Moltres @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Flamethrower
- Scorching Sands / Air Slash / Hurricane
- Roost
- Defog / Toxic / Will-O-Wisp / U-Turn / Whatever you feel like

Perhaps something like Flamethrower/Defog/Roost/Uturn is stronger on more defensive teams. The flying stab is not necessarily needed/valued on a team when utility options defog and uturn are available. This would distinguish it over alternative defogger Zapdos, because while a utility Zapdos has a volt switch that can be blocked by ground types, u-turn is unblockable. Idk I've not used the set you described I always default to the one I just mentioned, but perhaps it is worth trying out.

 

[Vengeance417]

Perhaps something like Flamethrower/Defog/Roost/Uturn is stronger on more defensive teams. The flying stab is not necessarily needed/valued on a team when utility options defog and uturn are available. This would distinguish it over alternative defogger Zapdos, because while a utility Zapdos has a volt switch that can be blocked by ground types, u-turn is unblockable. Idk I've not used the set you described I always default to the one I just mentioned, but perhaps it is worth trying out.

I feel Scorching Sands is almost non-negotiable. The ability to dent Heatran, as well as burning Pokemon such as Tyranitar and Toxapex on the switch is one of the reasons, alongside HDB, of course, why Moltres is so good right now. U-turn doesn't really seem that great when you're just gonna end up taking chip from Rocky Helmet and/or Rough Skin or getting Static'd by Zapdos. Better off just pulling double-switches, imo.

 

[Hematemesis]

Ah, gotcha, thanks then. I would say defog is the important 4th move then, if uturn isn't looking too good.

 

[shadowpea]

God how I just want to try out Moltres but I can't because of the dumb Zygarde and Kyurem around. As far as I've noticed, Moltres is a very good mon this generation, just like you said. Heavy duty boots gave it what it needs to be defensive. I will disagree about knock off though but that does depend on who uses it. I think Moltres would be more afraid of losing its boots than the opponent being burned since Moltres is next to dead weight without its boots. That being said, I will add my own thoughts and say that it would probably be best to pair it with another defogger in the event you lost your boots. Also, that makes two of us. I also thought Moltres would never be ou after stealth rocks were introduced

Yeah defog is kinda important for Moltres but if someone else already have it well it can afford to drop it for something else or like you said u can run two. Also ur right about it depending who is knocking Moltres. Kartana wouldn't want to risk it but Tang or Pex just wouldn't care.

 

[musiquepkmn]

Mystical Fire is also an option i've seen on Moltres so pokemon like Tapu Fini switching in won't be setting up for free. With Flame Body and Scorching Sands Moltres isn't really needing Flamethrower's 10% burn chance.

 

[Negative Charge]

Garchomp @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stealth Rock / Scale Shot
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

an old classic! I have been trying to avoid running zygarde because it's disgusting. I run this with wish clef to a decent deal of success. I think a lot of players just automatically assume you're running a bulky set and switch shit like Mandibuzz and Zapdos into it. Chomp lives in an important speed tier, beating out the birds, Thundurus-Therian, jirachi and charizard.

Though you usually shouldn't bother, Adamant Chomp's odds of 2HKOing Bold Clefable with +0 EQ go up dramatically, which might be of interest to some people if you're teching your team around that fact.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Speaking of unbans, do you think Arena Trap is still too much for OU / uncompetitive ?
I do think there seems to be more counterplay to it than there was pre DLC, and that Arena Trap could help to balance some threats.

I would like to start with a few observations that lead me to think there is now counterplay to Dugtrio:
More Pokemons outspeed it.
Without speed boost: Pheromosa, Dragapult, Spectrier, Tapu Koko, Tornadus-T.
With speed boost (not counting Choice Scarf): Excadrill, Barraskewda, Brasegali, Magearna, Volcarona, Kyurem-B, Zygarde, Kingdra, Kartana.
Some defensive Pokemons got a way to escape: Teleport.
Those Pokemons are Clefable, Blissey, Slowbro.
Future Sight.
Future Sight is a popular move in this metagame and is a tool that can be used to pressure Dugtrio.

Then, I would like to analyze the top 50 (bar Landorus and Ditto) from the November usage stats.
Let's see which threats Dugtrio could potentially trap and which Pokemons are safe:

Pokemons that can not get trapped (19/48)=40%
Those Pokemons are always 100% safe against Arena Trap.
(with Bulk Up + Jungle Healing)

Pokemons that can get trapped but have counterplay (15/48)=30%
Those Pokemons can only be trapped under certain circumstances. Some will require a prediction (double switch into Dugtrio), some will require to be weakened enough, some will depend on the set.
(only Choice Band can be trapped) (Teleport) (Shift Gear, Iron Defense) (Dragon Dance) (Bulk Up, Sucker Punch) (can Explode, lol) (Rapid Spin, Sand Rush) (Aqua Jet if not Choice Band locked) (Scale Shot) (Teleport) / (Teleport) (U-Turn, outspeeds) (outspeeds most of the time) (Bullet Punch)

Pokemons that are trapped (14/48)=30%
Some still need to be weakened before they can get trapped (7/14):
(should be careful to Sucker Punch / Bulk Up) (not particularly easy to trap) (unless it is scarfed)
Those Pokemons are truly Dugtrio food (7/14):


I tried to rank the top 50 threats as accurately as possible, obvisously some might be debatable.
Honestly, from that perspective, I think we are far from a Pokemon that is impossible to play around and totally uncompetitive.
Don't get me wrong however, it would probably still be extremely good, particularly against Heatran, Toxapex, Melmetal, Tyranitar, Tapu Lele and Nidoking.

What would the benefits be ?
Dugtrio is a tool that can be used to nerf Pokemons that have few answers / can be seen as "annoying" or suspect material: Clefable, Magearna, Cinderace, Regieleki, Urshifu, Heatran, Melmetal, Toxapex for instance.
It can be used in any playstyle.

Dugtrio shortens games. It punishes Wish Passing, Regenerator cores and more generally, switches. That is an ability we lost with Pursuit being an unavailable move.
I do think this is an important point because OU games being too long (depending on the match up) is the number one complaint. Stall is one of the reason of course, but we could also see that happen in the balanced vs. balanced match up, featuring Wish Pass Clefable vs. Wish Pass Clefable in 200+ turns shows (that was DLC 1 if I remember correctly).
In a metagame where Dugtrio is allowed, that should not happen. You will eventually punish the Clefable switch in and make progress.

tl; dr again not saying Arena Trap is not ban material. Just thought that would be interesting to discuss considering things have changed.

Cinderace can also u-turn out of trapping, and swampert can flip turn if things get bad.

But still let's not even go there unless we absolutely have to.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

yall do this legit every single generation since it's arrived (arena trap). it's a broken game mechanic and I promise you, almost any argument you come up with someone has already tried and it's been hashed out multiple times. I don't understand why this keeps being repeated. If you really want to try and bring new points you really gotta read through the lengthy history of all of the posts and suspects (because for some reason there were multiple despite the game not changing) and see what u were gonna say because no one has said or tried anything new in this thread like at all..


and can someone explain why tf the shield dog is being discussed? I sincerely want to know bc from my pov I’m like wtf is wrong with yall. is this a meme?

 

[musiquepkmn]

yall do this legit every single generation since it's arrived (arena trap). it's a broken game mechanic and I promise you, almost any argument you come up with someone has already tried and it's been hashed out multiple times. I don't understand why this keeps being repeated. If you really want to try and bring new points you really gotta read through the lengthy history of all of the posts and suspects (because for some reason there were multiple despite the game not changing) and see what u were gonna say because no one has said or tried anything new in this thread like at all..


and can someone explain why tf the shield dog is being discussed? I sincerely want to know bc from my pov I’m like wtf is wrong with yall. is this a meme?

To be clear we are talking about Crowned Shield Dog. It can't hold an item. Essentially we are suggesting it be unbanned later on (when the broken stuff clears up) because Z-C has no breaking power whatsoever. It barely does any damage and its best boosting move is howl. Offensively its hard to OHKO it but it doesn't OHKO much back. It's fast but its not blazing fast. Pretty much its fast and bulky but not powerful, which is why we were suggesting a suspect test. Even if it is broken, we will gain that knowledge about how it affects the metagame so we can decide in future metagames whether to unban it or not.

Of course Z-H (shield dog with item) would be broken, so there's a whole debate on whether we are actually able to unban Z-C without unbanning Z-H, since Z-C is just Z-H with an item.

Edit: Arena trap is not a broken game mechanic intrinsically (like evasion boosting moody or power construct), as we can see in ADV. It's still broken, just a note.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

To be clear we are talking about Crowned Shield Dog. It can't hold an item. Essentially we are suggesting it be unbanned later on (when the broken stuff clears up) because Z-C has no breaking power whatsoever. It barely does any damage and its best boosting move is howl. Offensively its hard to OHKO it but it doesn't OHKO much back. It's fast but its not blazing fast. Pretty much its fast and bulky but not powerful, which is why we were suggesting a suspect test. Even if it is broken, we will gain that knowledge about how it affects the metagame so we can decide in future metagames whether to unban it or not.

Of course Z-H (shield dog with item) would be broken, so there's a whole debate on whether we are actually able to unban Z-C without unbanning Z-H, since Z-C is just Z-H with an item.

Edit: Arena trap is not a broken game mechanic intrinsically (like evasion boosting moody or power construct), as we can see in ADV. It's still broken, just a note.

it is a dog with a giant shield on it. why did u think it was going to be a breaker? have you seen it;s stats and ability? it's clearly broken

 

[kosecant]

yall do this legit every single generation since it's arrived (arena trap). it's a broken game mechanic and I promise you, almost any argument you come up with someone has already tried and it's been hashed out multiple times. I don't understand why this keeps being repeated. If you really want to try and bring new points you really gotta read through the lengthy history of all of the posts and suspects (because for some reason there were multiple despite the game not changing) and see what u were gonna say because no one has said or tried anything new in this thread like at all..


and can someone explain why tf the shield dog is being discussed? I sincerely want to know bc from my pov I’m like wtf is wrong with yall. is this a meme?

Zamazenta C is being discussed because it is easily the worst uber right now, with a Stat spread and move pool that aren't very complementary. It's forced to hold a rusted shield, so it can't use an item to either help with longevity or damage output. In summary it has immense bulk but no longevity, and a great attack Stat with poor coverage and can only boost with howl.

 

[shadowpea]

Uhh the only logic I have behind it that has not been already said is: they unbanned stuffed like Genesect and Naganadel, why not this?

Also 3 posts in 5 minutes, and 2 posts in one minute, damn.

 

[musiquepkmn]

it is a dog with a giant shield on it. why did u think it was going to be a breaker? have you seen it;s stats and ability? it's clearly broken

Whether it's broken or not is not clear. It is stopped by nearly every wall, and even super effective coverage isn't enough for this thing to do anything well. Sub-Howl sets need to choose 2 moves when Z-C really wants 6 or more. Spikes are the bane of this thing's existence, and burn makes it literally useless. Paralysis also makes it useless as it relies heavily on its good but not great speed. It can't use its great bulk to use Weakness Policy because it can't hold an item, and it DOESN'T GET BODY PRESS. The real question is whether suspect voters will be willing to play the meta, seeing how defensive it will likely become.

 

[Vengeance417]

Whether it's broken or not is not clear. It is stopped by nearly every wall, and even super effective coverage isn't enough for this thing to do anything well. Sub-Howl sets need to choose 2 moves when Z-C really wants 6 or more. Spikes are the bane of this thing's existence, and burn makes it literally useless. Paralysis also makes it useless as it relies heavily on its good but not great speed. It can't use its great bulk to use Weakness Policy because it can't hold an item, and it DOESN'T GET BODY PRESS. The real question is whether suspect voters will be willing to play the meta, seeing how defensive it will likely become.

Spikes aren't all that common right now, and even if you run into Spikes, you should have an easy time slapping on a Defogger like Dos/Tres to get them off the field.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. If it's going to get tested, Zamazenta-C's not gonna be known for its ability to break down walls, but how it'll handle offensive teams. It will live just about any one hit and dish out decent damage to most offensive Pokemon in return, and it can also rely on WishPort to mitigate any chip damage it has taken, or rely on Rillaboom's passive Grassy Surge recovery to negate Stealth Rock damage and give it an EQ resistance, meaning Lando-T, Garchomp, and Rush Excadrill ain't revenging this mon very well.

 

[Bakugames]

I feel like we should only have this zama discussion when we get the bans for the broken stuff in the meta rn. It might change and make zama overwhelming when we get rid of some stuff so I dont think its worth doing it rn.

Have yall had any sucess with g-zapdos? Maybe I'm just bad at teambuilding but I never really know where to fit it or if its worth using it in this meta rn. Its certainly not worth in most cases when you just want to use k-zapdos