Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[glava222]

So Spectrier is either :
1. Sub Plot w/ 2 attacks
2. Greedy Sub Plot with wisp and hex
3. Sub CM with two attacks
4. Specs with ball/hex/wisp
5. Scarf with ball/hex/wisp

That's pretty much it right? I wanted to offer options to someone who asked me for Spectrier meta sets. I was thinking Double Dance (Agility + Nasty Plot) could have it's merit but I don't really see it anywhere.

there are also versions of 1. and 3. which swap one attack out for disable, usually to beat it's checks/counters that can only hit it with one move

 

[Katy]

80% out of 5 uses is not nearly enough to go off. G-zap certainly isn't a bad pokemon, but when its team wins a total of 4 times in ~70 games you can hardly call that proof of anything; especially not without knowing what those matchups were.

However, I do not believe using winrate from a sample size of 9 is a good metric for determining whether a pokemon is good or not, as it can be difficult/impossible to tell whether the tapu lele user would've won had they used a different pokemon/team instead. In other words, does tapu lele have a good winrate because the players using them are better, or are the players winning because of tapu lele (which would imply the mon is good)? Sometimes you can just get lucky and the mon gets a good matchup (that it would not otherwise consistently get) in a few games. Usually these counterfactuals are accounted for with a larger sample size. I don't think there's anything wrong with using winrates as a discussion kickstarter, but I've seen too many people try to make conclusions based on tournament winrates from a small sample size.

Thank you guys for your inputs here.

I think I worded it a bit rush and should not have drawn rash conclusions about Tapu Lele and Zapdos-Galar, as this was a rather small sample size of data (not a huge amount of games), and I am grateful for any constructive criticism which have been said there and I'm looking forward to the future and development of the metagame and perhaps even tho it was just a small sample size of data, some people will try out some more Pokemon in the future to see what their potential could be in the current or future metagame.

Once again I'm grateful for any constructive criticism and I'm looking forward on how the metagame will develope in the future.

 

[AM]

So Spectrier is either :
1. Sub Plot w/ 2 attacks
2. Greedy Sub Plot with wisp and hex
3. Sub CM with two attacks
4. Specs with ball/hex/wisp
5. Scarf with ball/hex/wisp

That's pretty much it right? I wanted to offer options to someone who asked me for Spectrier meta sets. I was thinking Double Dance (Agility + Nasty Plot) could have it's merit but I don't really see it anywhere.

Dual dance hasnt picked up yet and might not cause it’s a bit difficult to set up with from personal experience but we’ll see.

 

[bb skarm]

Some thoughts:

Nidoking is GOOD. It really does excel at being a core breaker. With Stealth Rock support it is a total nightmare to switch into. In a metagame where we consistently see Clefable and Pex at the top of usage, Nidoking really thrives on breaking down that core and pressuring switchins that try to come in for one of those two mons. It's more than just Clefable and Pex too; many common Pokemon you see on bulkier builds such as Heatran, Magearna, and Tapu Fini are easily taken care of by Nidoking. The ability to pressure a whole playstyle, just like Lando-I was doing (without the brokenness), instantly makes Nidoking a Pokemon you should look at when deciding on a speical breaker. With most switchins already being one predict away from fainting, Nidoking is really just a mon that can provide so much offensive presence for your team, and I've loved using it. It does have its faults in that against faster builds you will really have to find opportunities for it to do much, but even then if you're creating good openings for it to come in like a slow pivot move or Tport then it will be pretty tough for an offensive team to find a switchin. Nidoking has been a pretty great Pokemon and is thriving in this meta.

Dragonite is a more niche pick on bulkier builds but I stayed true to my word and used it and I can most definitely say it is a decent setup sweeper in the metagame. HDB multiscale is so helpful and virtually always guarantees at least one dragon dance bar getting hit with like triple axel and pretty much solves one of the biggest gripes of it in past generations in that it was really easy to break multiscale with rocks. Now that it can use a flying STAB without the unreliability of confusion I've found it to be more effective in actual practice. Something I've noticed is it kind of has 4MSS; Dragonite with DWB, Outrage, Earthquake, Fire Punch, Roost, and ESpeed would be goated but it can only carry three of those due to Dragon Dance taking up a slot. I actually rock with DWB Earthquake and Roost/ESpeed but this sort of issue is kind of solvable through breaking teammates i.e. Nidoking pretty much shuts down a lot of Dragonite's bulkier checks. Seriously, try using this mon, it's kind of fun.

Melmetal is really starting to shine in this meta and it makes sense why. It’s an awesome awesome tank and hits stupidly hard. Something that’s been really cool to me is it has outstanding longevity for an offensive mon with lacking recovery by virtue of its awesome typing and incredible HP. This just in and of itself puts a lot of pressure on opposing teams because once this thing comes in it can usually tank a hit and hit back with an absurdly powerful DIB or appropriate coverage move. In terms of sets, Protect + Leftovers is a pretty solid one and I think it’s the best set Melmetal has in this metagame as Protect allows you to get some leftovers recovery back and scout for mons that may be carrying an extra coverage move for Melmetal. DIB and EQ is already pretty decent coverage and Toxic in the last slot is pretty good for catching Slowbro, Zapdos, and Moltres on the switchin.

:zamazenta-c (it doesn't have a sprite but act like it does): Zamazenta-C would definitely shake the metagame up. I mean I know it's being casually discussed but this is still a mon that would shape up to be a consistent elite but balanced mon in the tier. I agree its best set is probably Howl sweeper and its coverage is definitely above average. I mean, seriously, this thing falls a bit short in Ubers but with BBash/CC/ and either Wild Charge or Ice Fang you're hitting most the tier for neutral damage. Its tremendous bulk probably means it will be able to linger around longer than your opponent wants (shades of Melmetal) and its Speed tier is pretty great as it outspeeds most the metagame. I think the writing is on the wall here - Zamazenta-C would be a solid Pokemon in the metagame and has potential to be a healthy addition to the tier. A big reason I feel like it would be a healthy addition to the tier is that if it were in the tier, it would have a great offensive presence, but would still have a fair share of checks.

Man, this thing has kind of fell off a bit, even without Zygarde. I think we all knew the hype would die down eventually just because in a metagame with a decent selection of Ground types it tends to kind of be a high risk mon in the sense that it’s a complete momentum killer if you bring it in while the opponent still has a Ground type on their team. I know Tapu Koko pairs nicely with it, but outside of that, I just like using Tapu Koko itself more overall because of its access to U-turn That being said, definitely a usable Pokemon in this metagame. When Ground types are taken care of, it is definitely a usable wincon and cleaner and still a powerful fast mon. I think it’s clear though that there’s a reason it’s on less teams than at the beginning of DLC2.

Just like in SM, Landorus-T is back as the tier's best pivot, and it also totally makes sense why. Intimidate pivots are always going to have potential to be impact mons in a metagame, and Landorus-T is as good an example as you can ask for. With such a good matchup against a chunk of the metagames physical attackers because of Intimidate and its typing - Excadrill, Garchomp, and the soccer player to name a few - it can force switches and use the switch to set up Rocks or pivot out with U-Turn and grab momentum. It’s really looking like one of the most splashable mons in the tier and I personally find it to be one of the best Pokemon in the tier again.

So yeah, just some things I think about the metagame. This thread is prob one of my favorite on Smogon because the metagame is constantly changing and there’s always something to talk about

 

[MilkyWay]

Although I initially enjoyed so many previous Ubers being unbanned and shaking up the meta at the start of DLC 2, the amount of potentially broken things in the tier has been starting to get kind of frustrating and I'm concerned this won't be solved for a long time. I understand we have already had an unprecedented amount of quick bans, but I think this is only because we had an unprecedented amount of previous Ubers return to OU (e.g. Genesect, Nagandel, Landorus-I, Zygarde, Kyurem-B, Pheromosa, Magearna, Melmetal, Blaziken, Cinderace).

The two most potentially broken mons that stand out to me right now are Pheromosa and Magearna. I honestly don't see either of them sticking around in OU for the long term and I believe their presence hinders the development of the meta in the sense that more borderline broken pokemon that I am genuinely unsure about (such as Urshifu-S, Spectrier, and even Toxapex, Cinderace, Blaziken, Zamazenta-C etc.) won't be able to get tested and hypothetically (un)banned for at least a few more months by the time the meta settles and we can accurately decide if they are healthy. Personally, I would prefer not to wait a few more months, but I understand it would probably be unreasonable for the council to quick ban both Pheromosa and Magearna so soon given Zygarde and Kyurem-B were just quick banned (and I think both Mag and Phero getting the axe, not just one, is necessary to begin looking at more questionable stuff like Urshifu-S, Zamazenta-C, etc.). Since the council has been (adequately) balancing taking the player base into account with quick executive action, here is what I think makes the most sense: As soon as next week, Pheromosa should be suspect tested. Based on the player base survey, I think this has a lot of support and I think it's fair to do this suspect test this soon despite the recent bans so we can approach a healthy meta asap; plus, it's not a quick ban so the player base will have the final say. Secondly, assuming Pheromosa is banned, Magearna should get the Melmetal treatment (quick banned, but retested later down the road) with it (or Mag can get suspected and Phero "Melmetal'd"). This wastes less time in my opinion opposed to suspect testing them individually; doing it this way we can let the meta settle and finally begin looking at some more questionable stuff (and the player base will still ultimately decide the fate of both mons).

This is just my two cents, but I believe these suggestions are the quickest way to reach a healthy meta while still prioritizing the will of the player base. I also think the council has been doing a good job so far and I'm excited to see how OU shapes up this gen.

 

[YeetYolk07]

Some thoughts:

Nidoking is GOOD. It really does excel at being a core breaker. With Stealth Rock support it is a total nightmare to switch into. In a metagame where we consistently see Clefable and Pex at the top of usage, Nidoking really thrives on breaking down that core and pressuring switchins that try to come in for one of those two mons. It's more than just Clefable and Pex too; many common Pokemon you see on bulkier builds such as Heatran, Magearna, and Tapu Fini are easily taken care of by Nidoking. The ability to pressure a whole playstyle, just like Lando-I was doing (without the brokenness), instantly makes Nidoking a Pokemon you should look at when deciding on a speical breaker. With most switchins already being one predict away from fainting, Nidoking is really just a mon that can provide so much offensive presence for your team, and I've loved using it. It does have its faults in that against faster builds you will really have to find opportunities for it to do much, but even then if you're creating good openings for it to come in like a slow pivot move or Tport then it will be pretty tough for an offensive team to find a switchin. Nidoking has been a pretty great Pokemon and is thriving in this meta.

Dragonite is a more niche pick on bulkier builds but I stayed true to my word and used it and I can most definitely say it is a decent setup sweeper in the metagame. HDB multiscale is so helpful and virtually always guarantees at least one dragon dance bar getting hit with like triple axel and pretty much solves one of the biggest gripes of it in past generations in that it was really easy to break multiscale with rocks. Now that it can use a flying STAB without the unreliability of confusion I've found it to be more effective in actual practice. Something I've noticed is it kind of has 4MSS; Dragonite with DWB, Outrage, Earthquake, Fire Punch, Roost, and ESpeed would be goated but it can only carry three of those due to Dragon Dance taking up a slot. I actually rock with DWB Earthquake and Roost/ESpeed but this sort of issue is kind of solvable through breaking teammates i.e. Nidoking pretty much shuts down a lot of Dragonite's bulkier checks. Seriously, try using this mon, it's kind of fun.

Melmetal is really starting to shine in this meta and it makes sense why. It’s an awesome awesome tank and hits stupidly hard. Something that’s been really cool to me is it has outstanding longevity for an offensive mon with lacking recovery by virtue of its awesome typing and incredible HP. This just in and of itself puts a lot of pressure on opposing teams because once this thing comes in it can usually tank a hit and hit back with an absurdly powerful DIB or appropriate coverage move. In terms of sets, Protect + Leftovers is a pretty solid one and I think it’s the best set Melmetal has in this metagame as Protect allows you to get some leftovers recovery back and scout for mons that may be carrying an extra coverage move for Melmetal. DIB and EQ is already pretty decent coverage and Toxic in the last slot is pretty good for catching Slowbro, Zapdos, and Moltres on the switchin.

:zamazenta-c (it doesn't have a sprite but act like it does): Zamazenta-C would definitely shake the metagame up. I mean I know it's being casually discussed but this is still a mon that would shape up to be a consistent elite but balanced mon in the tier. I agree its best set is probably Howl sweeper and its coverage is definitely above average. I mean, seriously, this thing falls a bit short in Ubers but with BBash/CC/ and either Wild Charge or Ice Fang you're hitting most the tier for neutral damage. Its tremendous bulk probably means it will be able to linger around longer than your opponent wants (shades of Melmetal) and its Speed tier is pretty great as it outspeeds most the metagame. I think the writing is on the wall here - Zamazenta-C would be a solid Pokemon in the metagame and has potential to be a healthy addition to the tier. A big reason I feel like it would be a healthy addition to the tier is that if it were in the tier, it would have a great offensive presence, but would still have a fair share of checks.

Man, this thing has kind of fell off a bit, even without Zygarde. I think we all knew the hype would die down eventually just because in a metagame with a decent selection of Ground types it tends to kind of be a high risk mon in the sense that it’s a complete momentum killer if you bring it in while the opponent still has a Ground type on their team. I know Tapu Koko pairs nicely with it, but outside of that, I just like using Tapu Koko itself more overall because of its access to U-turn That being said, definitely a usable Pokemon in this metagame. When Ground types are taken care of, it is definitely a usable wincon and cleaner and still a powerful fast mon. I think it’s clear though that there’s a reason it’s on less teams than at the beginning of DLC2.

Just like in SM, Landorus-T is back as the leagues best pivot, and it totally makes sense why. Intimidate pivots are always going to have potential to be impact mons in a metagame, and Landorus-T is as good an example as you can ask for. With such a good matchup against a chunk of the metagames physical attackers because of Intimidate and its typing - Excadrill, Garchomp, and the soccer player to name a few - it can force switches and use the switch to set up Rocks or pivot out with U-Turn and grab momentum. It’s really looking like one of the most splashable mons in the tier and I personally find it to be one of the best Pokemon in the tier again.

So yeah, just some things I think about the metagame. This thread is prob one of my favorite on Smogon because the metagame is constantly changing and there’s always something to talk about

I use a bit of a more wacky set on my nidoking. I use scarf to help outspeed un-scarfed latis, dragapult, speed tie max speed pheromosa(if needed),zeraora and tapu koko. It isn't as great as like life orb sets, but it definitely has the element of surprised and is a great revenge killer

 

[Vincent210]

Another thing that’s worth saying out loud about is that having the option to run choice physical moves that allow it to act as a lure or otherwise adapt to better fit a particular team is pretty great. Superpower for and as well Rock Slide for are two 4th move picks that immediately come to mind.

 

[Zneon]

Absolutely love this meta rn, so I'm going to go over what my favourite things to use are rn.

=====

Quiver Dance Pheromosa

I love Pheromosa, I think its an outstanding Pokemon and its not hard to see why. The mon is splashable as hell and nothing is lost by putting it on your team, however QD Pheromosa is more tricky; it is in my eyes harder to build around compared to CB or HDB Pivot, however I find it to be more rewarding than either of those. QD Pheromosa is a very rewarding wincon because its so easy to win games with it as soon as it goes for it late game or even early game sometimes because without priority you cannot really revenge kill it outside of priority like Rillaboom and Urshifu, this finally found its place in the metagame as it now has more opportunities to set them up now without the fear of being revenge killed by priority as easily as it did at the beginning. The mon forces so switches so easily that getting the Quiver Dance up is easier than you think and once it does it can very easily sweep depending on the state of the game, and even without a Quiver Dance up its very threatening on its own; Focus Blast / Ice Beam / Shock Wave hits a vast majority of the metagame super effectively and with Modest you can 2hko a ton of Pokemon. QD Pheromosa is highly potent and has a great place in the meta now.

Choice Band Rillaboom

I also think CB Rillaboom has a ton of merit in the tier right now. Grass STAB + Knock is an amazing combo and it allows it to dent or just cripple stuff. While it does have its issues, like Zapdos and Moltres being pretty common hazard removers, it can threaten a bunch of stuff like Blissey, Slowbro, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Swampert, Spectrier, Pheromosa and probably more and this is just with its Grass STAB, mainly Grassy Glide. Speaking of Grassy Glide, its exactly the reason why I think CB Rillaboom is great in the metagame because of how many things it can forces out and revenge kill because it hits pretty damn hard coming from this thing, and when you combine that with Knock Off and U-turn, its pretty terrifying to go up against, and when you add Grassy Terrain healing up teammates with a lack of recovery like Ferrothorn and Melmetal, its pretty useful. Not that much to say because this is pretty straightforward but I'm going to close this out with the fact that this Pokemon is a huge threat and something that can really help your team.

Amoonguss

Shoutouts to Gomi for bringing this Pokemon to my attention. After testing Amoonguss for for a few hours, I've come to the conclusion that this Pokemon is actually good depending on the team and pretty underrated in this meta. You guys know what our breakers are hella good and potent as hell and Future Sight enables them to an insane degree. How about we make them even easier to enable by putting stuff to sleep instead? Spore is a broken move at its core and it works wonders in a metagame like this and this is largely due to some of our most potent breakers being able to abuse it so hard. Urshifu, Specs Magearna, Band Pheromosa, Melmetal all love the free turns sleep give, and even outside of sleep I feel Amoonguss has a good defensive niche of its own. It can switch into common defensive Pokemon like Slowbro, Clefable, Toxapex, Swampert, Landorus-T and Tyranitar pretty well and can continue doing so over the course of the game, giving it a ton of chances to get the sleep off. The mon synergies with a lot of stuff pretty well too, the breakers and Slowbro specifically but also on Fire+Water+Grass cores but the utility it can bring to those cores is amazing in my eyes. Overall Amoonguss is actually good and usable in this metagame, pretty underrated defensive Pokemon in my humble opinion and something I recommend people to use and experiment more with.

Thanks for reading!

 

[zedhatool]

I've been using a utility core on the ladder to annoy the common defensive backbones that you see on balance and stall teams:
+

the sets

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Earthquake
- Flip Turn

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Spikes
- Soft-Boiled
- Knock Off

The common defensive backbones on balance teams, and the rare stall team all usually have at least two of Blissey/Chansey + Zapdos/Mandibuzz/Moltres + Toxapex/Ferrothorn. Swampert is able to beat even offensive Kanto birds 1v1 with Max SpD and Leftovers. Toxic is excellent utility, and it is a good switch-in to Heatran. However, Swampert gets shut down by Pex and Ferro, and can't make any meaningful progress against Blissey or Chansey.

Enter utility Mew. I would consider Knock Off to currently be the best move in the game: nothing appreciates getting its item knocked off, especially not Blissey or Chansey which depend on their items for longevity and bulk, respectively. Taunt ensures they can only Seismic Toss, which Mew eats because of the HP investment, and Spikes allow Mew to take advantage of these passive walls. It also can beat things like Calm Mind Tapu Fini 1v1 if you get it in on the correct turn. Against Toxapex and Ferrothorn Mew can't exactly win the 1v1 like it can with Blissey, but it can knock them off and get up Spikes, which in the long run wears them down and makes them vulnerable to setup sweepers. The Speed investment on Mew means that it almost always outruns defoggers (bar Tornadus, which is rarely Defog) and can Taunt them. This is also quite useful if you have managed to land a Toxic on the Defogger, because it is no longer able to Roost off Toxic damage.

So far I've used this core on two teams, one with Bulk Up Corviknight and the other with Raikou. Raikou was just fun, but Bulk Up Corviknight was surprisingly good, especially because Magnezone usage has dropped so much. On both teams, I included Heal Bell support which makes the duo infinitely more annoying because these are difficult to wear down outside of Toxic and Scald burns, but once you eliminate those methods of counterplay, the core can really stick around. The other way of wearing down this core is with hazards, but Taunt Mew often singlehandedly prevents hazards from going up, and if it can't, Spikes pressure can often force the opposing team to defog for you.

 

[Lameflame]

Life Orb Kartana

Kartana @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off

This is one of the absolute best breakers in the tier right now. Kartana has more than a few viable sets, with Choice Band, Scarf, SD + Synthesis and some variations with Smart Strike over Knock Off, etc., but Swords Dance + Life Orb allows you to pull off some ridiculous damage calculations. They are listed in order of damage output in the spoiler tag below.

Relevant Calcs

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 151-178 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 201-238 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Mandibuzz: 246-290 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 247-291 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 285-335 (74.6 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 348-411 (80.7 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 302-355 (78.6 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 243-286 (80.1 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Celesteela: 334-394 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 263-309 (86.5 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 364-430 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 208 HP / 60 Def Moltres: 360-425 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 481-567 (101.9 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 430-508 (109.1 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 390-460 (110.7 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 100 Def Volcarona: 435-513 (116.6 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I almost never base an argument about something being good or bad solely on a wall of calcs, but in this case I think it paints a very clear picture of this Kartana set's position in the current metagame. What's more is that most of these sets are either not optimal (e.g. max Def Garchomp), or the mon itself is rarely seen in the current metagame (e.g. Rotom-H). I also gave all of these mons the benefit of running Heavy Duty Boots - without this, nearly all of the 2HKOs are actually clean OHKOs after a single round of rocks or very minimal chip damage (e.g. Toxapex, Moltres, Zapdos, even TankChomp). Obviously triggering Flame Body, Static or running into a multiscale-intact Dragonite will ruin Kart's day, and you still have offensive checks like Tornadus-T and Cinderace which either switch in and threaten to OHKO or take any one hit at +0, but even in the case of Torn-T and Cinderace, they are getting massively chunked by Life Orb Knock Off and losing their Boots for the rest of the game hurts a ton. It should be fairly noted that most teams have some form of speed control faster than 346, which makes it difficult for Kartana to actually get more than one kill at a time without being forced out, and mons like Latios, Pheromosa and Spectrier are not what you want to be giving free turns to, so this set is not without some drawbacks.

This effectively leaves you with Tangrowth, Mandibuzz and Buzzwole as the premier defensive Kartana checks, all three of which are actually 2HKO'D by Smart Strike but that isn't really optimal on this particular set, so again, they were given the benefit of the doubt in the calcs. Mandibuzz is kinda holding the metagame together right now, so perhaps it hasn't fully caught on how good this Kartana set can be, but it's something worth thinking about before you all release your Buzzwoles in the post-Zygarde/Kyurem-B metagame.

 

[Ast0rga]

Absolutely love this meta rn, so I'm going to go over what my favourite things to use are rn.

=====

Quiver Dance Pheromosa

I love Pheromosa, I think its an outstanding Pokemon and its not hard to see why. The mon is splashable as hell and nothing is lost by putting it on your team, however QD Pheromosa is more tricky; it is in my eyes harder to build around compared to CB or HDB Pivot, however I find it to be more rewarding than either of those. QD Pheromosa is a very rewarding wincon because its so easy to win games with it as soon as it goes for it late game or even early game sometimes because without priority you cannot really revenge kill it outside of priority like Rillaboom and Urshifu, this finally found its place in the metagame as it now has more opportunities to set them up now without the fear of being revenge killed by priority as easily as it did at the beginning. The mon forces so switches so easily that getting the Quiver Dance up is easier than you think and once it does it can very easily sweep depending on the state of the game, and even without a Quiver Dance up its very threatening on its own; Focus Blast / Ice Beam / Shock Wave hits a vast majority of the metagame super effectively and with Modest you can 2hko a ton of Pokemon. QD Pheromosa is highly potent and has a great place in the meta now.

What do you think of Timid QD Pheromosa? I remember running it by accident but it was actually perfect, it was against a Rain Team and after 1 QD I got a KO and my speed went up, then when Barraskewda and Kingdra showed up I was faster and was able to clean. It's probably too situational tho.

 

[musiquepkmn]

clefable is more of a status absorber, no surprise, its just used differently and fini dosent like status or having lefties being knocked

Fini is immune to status that is inflicted after its terrain is set up, as Misty Terrain blocks all status to grounded pokemon. The one, most important side note is that Tapu Fini is still affected by Toxic Spikes, which makes absolutely no sense but also means it can't come in on Tspikes or be deadweight for the rest of the match bar Heal Bell/Aromatherapy.

 

[Vincent210]

Speaking of Aromatherapy...

To state the immediately obvious, this is a good move, because status is strong.

To really drive a point home, this meta is kind of being held together by status checks.

and more are being checked with bird bodies so often that some of them are wearing pads instead of an actual item, Wisp is one of the cornerstones of a significant number of sets and the primary factor keeping from being a check, Yellow Color is being handed out like candy (as per usual) to any mon that will take it, and is still generating immense pressure with tspikes. Toxic as the longstanding icing on this cake, I ask you

If your sponge-mon can just arbitrarily undo all of this pain almost any time they come in to do their job, isn’t that a deeply compelling offer, even on their very competitive four move slots?

I feel like rain teams are incredibly sleeping on this too, if your could be unburning and its not I don’t know why you don’t love yourself more.

 

[MidnightReaper]

If you would have told me when I first got into competitive in Gen 4 that the meta would be dominated by a yeet-worthy ghost horse, a bushy gorilla, and a spooky runway model looking extra-dimensional cockroach, while Zapdos, Moltres, and Nidoking all fucked around in OU, I would have laughed hysterically.

 

[MrHands]

If you would have told me when I first got into competitive in Gen 4 that the meta would be dominated by a yeet-worthy ghost horse, a bushy gorilla, and a spooky runway model looking extra-dimensional cockroach, while Zapdos, Moltres, and Nidoking all fucked around in OU, I would have laughed hysterically.

I mean Zapdos being OU isn't surprising. It's actually probably the least surprising thing possible.

 

[musiquepkmn]

I mean Zapdos being OU isn't surprising. It's actually probably the least surprising thing possible.

Other than, of course, Tyranitar being OU. Ttar in OU is incredibly predictable and unsurprising.



wait a minute...

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I just think it;s truly hilarious how I used nidoking for several gens and yall called it bad and now lol suddenly, despite it learning absolutely no new moves and no changes to its stats it's great. truly incredibly hilarious honestly (mandibuzz too but I mean at least blunder admitted that bird is broken way back).

anyway what are peoples thoughts on nidoqueen? it's a lot bulkier and AV is kinda heat. or you can go toxic spikes and live a bunch of hits while doing a lot of good damage back. its attack is higher than it's spa so you can even go phys

 

[zedhatool]

I just think it;s truly hilarious how I used nidoking for several gens and yall called it bad and now lol suddenly, despite it learning absolutely no new moves and no changes to its stats it's great. truly incredibly hilarious honestly (mandibuzz too but I mean at least blunder admitted that bird is broken way back).

anyway what are peoples thoughts on nidoqueen? it's a lot bulkier and AV is kinda heat. or you can go toxic spikes and live a bunch of hits while doing a lot of good damage back. its attack is higher than it's spa so you can even go phys

I used Toxic Spikes Nidoqueen on stall. Here is the set:
Golden Dream (Nidoqueen) (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 172 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Rest
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
I don't remember what the speed creep is for, but the defense lives two banded Urshifu CCs, rest dumped into SpD to beat electric types that can annoy Chansey with Volt. It's pretty solid because it beats basically very TSpike absorber. I used it with Bell support to make Rest less crippling.

 

[AM]

Specs Spectrier no Grim Neigh boost.

Spectrier used Shadow Ball!
A critical hit!
(The opposing Moltres lost 100% of its health!)

 

[bb skarm]

I just think it;s truly hilarious how I used nidoking for several gens and yall called it bad and now lol suddenly, despite it learning absolutely no new moves and no changes to its stats it's great. truly incredibly hilarious honestly (mandibuzz too but I mean at least blunder admitted that bird is broken way back).

anyway what are peoples thoughts on nidoqueen? it's a lot bulkier and AV is kinda heat. or you can go toxic spikes and live a bunch of hits while doing a lot of good damage back. its attack is higher than it's spa so you can even go phys

Whoever called nidoking bad was prob dtm, that's definitely ridiculous, it's been consistently viable since I'd say XY? I remember in BW both Nidoking and Nidoqueen were struggling a bit and Nidoqueen saw more usage at times anyways. After that though Nidoking's been a pretty usable in OU for some time so I'm def questioning whoever said it was bad. I think what's really helping Nidoking excel in this metagame is just that the meta is overall slower and bulkier and those are two things that favor Nidoking as Nidoking really is effective amongst the slower and bulkier mons we are seeing. But yeah, calling Nidoking bad in the past is definitely false, either they just had a lack of meta knowledge or they were saying it while Landorus-I was in the tier (which makes more sense because it completely eclipses Nidoking).

As for Nidoqueen, it's pretty interesting, mainly in that it should be outright better than Nidoking but falls short because of its speed stat. It hits harder than Nidoking because it runs Modest more often and the added bulk is something to consider for sure. I know Toxic Spikes gets used on Nidoqueen often and it's probably got to be one of the better users of it because it has added offensive presence unlike Toxapex. Assault Vest definitely sounds viable though because the Sheer Force boost gives it some power and it can be troubling for some mons like Heatran. Definitely pairs pretty well with Wish Clefable so I could see them together. Any hazards + 3 attacks set seems good enough to carve it a niche and I feel like that's the best set Nidoqueen can be running because of its ability to set up Toxic Spikes and like you said absorb them. The core breaking power is still there and other hazard setters like Heatran and Ferrothorn (if running flamethrower) get OHKOed, so forcing a switch and getting free hazards sounds pretty good. I'd definitely run enough HP just to outspeed Specs Magearna and get the jump on that, then put the rest in bulk to utilize Nidoqueen's added bulk as much as possible. 16 Speed EVs outspeeds 100 Speed Magearna while 168 Speed EVs outspeeds Modest 252 Speed Magearna, so using one of those and putting the rest in HP for a bit of bulk seems fair. You can also run 252 with a Modest nature to tie Timid Magearna. In terms of a sample set, I can imagine it looking like this:


Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
- Toxic Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam / Flamethrower

Because of queen's ability to pressure bulkier teams like Nidoking can, it probably can force a lot of switches and lay down hazards. The 16 Speed EVs outspeed the standard specs Magearna set which is 100 Speed EVs. Speed creeping other speed creeps sometimes can be a little silly but considering this is only 16 Speed EVs I feel like that's fine enough to risk, especially because Nidoqueen's bulk is something you want to utilize in this metagame. Toxic Spikes is definitely the best move on this set, and controlling Toxic Spikes by being able to pick them up too sounds pretty nice. Nidoqueen also runs Stealth Rock a lot in other tiers so I slashed it, but IMO in this metagame even with Pex around (which you pressure a lot) Toxic Spikes is really clutch and is also especially helpful for mons like the SubSpectrier sets that are starting to pop up more. Toxic Spikes and the movepool Nidoqueen has also, similar to Nidoking, makes this mon a really annoying mon for balance in general to face because of spreading poison and hitting a lot of those common bulky mons like Ferro. Remember, Nidoqueen hits harder than Nidoking because it runs Modest, so the breaking power is still there with the same coverage.

Now that I wrote all this I want to try Nidoqueen out because Toxic Spikes really are underrated in the metagame and being able to pressure other Poison types that pick up Tspikes is just really great and allows it to control that aspect of the game fully as it a) can set up Toxic Spikes b) pick up Toxic Spikes c) beat the main Poison type that picks up Toxic Spikes, Toxapex.

 

[Zneon]

What do you think of Timid QD Pheromosa? I remember running it by accident but it was actually perfect, it was against a Rain Team and after 1 QD I got a KO and my speed went up, then when Barraskewda and Kingdra showed up I was faster and was able to clean. It's probably too situational tho.

I feel that Timid QD Pheromosa can do work depending on the matchup, I prefer Modest over Timid by a long shot as the snowball potential of using Modest is much higher because of the +1 SpA boost every single time and considering outside of rain Pokemon and priority it outspeeds everything else at +1 Speed, which I feel is a much better trade off and more rewarding. Also when it comes to those matchups I just use something like Rillaboom or Toxapex to make the rain matchup more manageable.

 

[Daikessen]

4. Specs with ball/hex/wisp
5. Scarf with ball/hex/wisp

How to get set up on 101

 

[Obsidian297]

First post here, long time lurker

I honestly think that Zaz-C would be far too much to handle, with titanic bulk, a great typing, both offensively and defensively, great speed and the ability to OKHO much of the meta. A lot more experienced people have been far more in-depth, so I'll just briefly go over why it shouldn't be considered.

I feel the arguments of no-item, lack of recovery and team support reliant are weak.

First, no item. I don't think it needs an item, its bulk is so huge, especially physically, that setting up with Howl (or Work Up, as that's safer) isn't too hard. This is exacerbated by the fact that +1 Zaz-C turns a lot of supposed checks into 2HKOs, as well as the fact that after 1 Howl, only Zap and Quag are able to take a hit reliably (Moltres is OHKO'd by Wild Charge) and able to retaliate somewhat.

Lack of recovery is also a non-point imo. While it does hinder its set-up potential, Wish+Port Clef is great as ever, and Rilla use rates are up too, making recovery less of a problem.

Team support is needed with basically every mon, it doesn't exclude Zaz-C. Plus, it doesn't need a defogger, unless somehow Spikes rise in popularity a la ORAS.

That being said, it definitely needs to be checked, this is all theory, and it may prove to be 100% wrong, and I'd be happy I'm wrong with that, I had a tonne of fun messing about with it with my friend in friendlies.

Have a great day y'all

 

[FrozenVoltz]

First post here, long time lurker

I honestly think that Zaz-C would be far too much to handle, with titanic bulk, a great typing, both offensively and defensively, great speed and the ability to OKHO much of the meta. A lot more experienced people have been far more in-depth, so I'll just briefly go over why it shouldn't be considered.

I feel the arguments of no-item, lack of recovery and team support reliant are weak.

First, no item. I don't think it needs an item, its bulk is so huge, especially physically, that setting up with Howl (or Work Up, as that's safer) isn't too hard. This is exacerbated by the fact that +1 Zaz-C turns a lot of supposed checks into 2HKOs, as well as the fact that after 1 Howl, only Zap and Quag are able to take a hit reliably (Moltres is OHKO'd by Wild Charge) and able to retaliate somewhat.

Lack of recovery is also a non-point imo. While it does hinder its set-up potential, Wish+Port Clef is great as ever, and Rilla use rates are up too, making recovery less of a problem.

Team support is needed with basically every mon, it doesn't exclude Zaz-C. Plus, it doesn't need a defogger, unless somehow Spikes rise in popularity a la ORAS.

That being said, it definitely needs to be checked, this is all theory, and it may prove to be 100% wrong, and I'd be happy I'm wrong with that, I had a tonne of fun messing about with it with my friend in friendlies.

Have a great day y'all

1.Having no Item is a HUGE drawback,this means Zam-C cannot hold leftovers so every damage it takes won't brushed off meaning it cannot take repeated hits,Lack of Boosting iteam is also a hinderance since while 130 attack isn't bad its certainly not gonna be dealing to much damage to bulky pokemon or even offensive pokemon for that matter(With some execptions of course)and Zamazenta has to rely on the mediocre Howl to increase its poor damage output.

2.Close Combat its best STAB move lowers its defenses meaning it basically neuters its high defenses making it very easy to KO in return,besides Zamazenta has very few oportunities to boost its attack due to its lack of recovery to switch into attacks

3.Other broken pokemon didn't require a significant amount of Support to put some work since they were actually able to threaten opposing teams with consistency


While Zamazenta looks broken on paper in practice it isn't that effective

 

[MrHands]

How to get set up on 101

Don't click WoW if you run the risk of it being exploited.

The game literally shows you your opponent's team turn 0, just play well. It's not like Spectrier has better options. Not to mention burning an Urshifu or Clefable on the switch can lead to a late game Hex sweep later.