Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Gennie]

I am only going to respond since bb skarm tagged me about it...

My use of Sash Kartana is unique because I use it on a Sash Spam offense, where the team is played in mind of spamming the potential of Focus Sash. In most situations, Life Orb is probably preferred for damage output, or Protective Pads to ensure it isn't worn down to Helmet, Iron Barbs, Static and Flame Body.

However, Sash is not a bad item choice if you can maintain pressure on the opponent to keep rocks off your side of the field. It can force a lot of switches and bait a free Swords Dance, after it kills something and gets to +3 the lack of Life Orb becomes unnoticeable, and you can bait your opponent to revenge kill you and bop them with your Sash. Kartana's speed tier is really strong in this new meta, so usually the opponent has only one or two Pokemon that can jump Kartana, so sometimes having a Focus Sash allows it to snowball. It is really powerful with just having access to SD or grabbing an early boost with Beast Boost, so you honestly do not require LO if your team is setup right, and while Sash might not trigger every match, it does remove some of Kartana"s shortcomings and can bait a lot of things.

I think people only brought up Kartana for its VR/usage stats right? As a whole, Kartana is strong regardless of its item choice, a lot of teams are unprepared to handle it after a SD boost or its Beast Boosts get going. I think most of us could agree on that.

Sorry if my post is a little short, I am reply on mobile. I can provide 2000+ power games with Sash Kartana if needed to prove it is worth discussing, i also used a team with it to make suspect requirements. [Deleted parts of my edit because I'll just DM the person in question about it sometime.]

Can I just say...THANK YOU. I actually used to bait Swords Dances instead of having Knock Off on this set (And Giga Impact was just added bc everyone told me to add it, idk why, doesn't work for me), but I didn't know if it was the right option for overall posting. I actually have plenty of games to post too (I mean, I don't have the replays since I post them all in OU chat, where they eventually just sink into the deep abyss.) Like, frankly, I've literally used ONLY Sash Kartana on my team and have fairly consistently swept about 3/6 Pokemon on average. Honestly, LO, Band, and Scarf are good items, but I feel like people only play it with those items and don't see its potential with other items such as Sash, and they underestimate its Attack and Speed when it holds no item. But you know, what works for some people doesn't work for others. Sash Kartana definitely works for me, but if you all, aside from Shurtugal, don't believe in its competitive capabilities, that's fine by me, but please, if you haven't already, try it before you judge how it isn't strong enough or fast enough, since its a very good competitive mon, and sash is just the one thing it needs to tank that flamethrower and get an added beast boost.

Also, DutroPodoboo (or something like that) said this:

"SD would actually be decent on a sash set, probably over smart strike because of how little steel hits. Sash could potentially give you a free set up so you can do more damage before you're KO'd. +2 leaf blade does a ton to anything that doesn't resist it, and hits fairy harder than an unboosted smart strike would because of its low power. Focus sash is not a great item in this meta because of all the priority + other chip damage that can break sash, but it's certainly not bad"

Honestly, I side with this, but I would get rid of Knock Off instead of Smart Strike for two reasons.

1: Steel STAB
2: Coverage

I mean, I've seen my fair share of Pheromosa in the metagame, and I'll likely continue to. Obviously, Mosa resists Leaf Blade, Sacred Sword, and Knock Off. But it doesn't resist Smart Strike, which definitively helps, since Mosa is a clear threat to Kartana. Although, Mosa is being suspect tested rn, and Knock Off covers other points in OU such as Dragapult, Latios, Spectrier, and all those ghost types in UUBL. So I suppose this would be a better suggestion. I think I'll make an edit to my set rn.

In other news, I might try AV Kartana if that's a good idea.

 

[Corumba]

Ruffles' post on Urshifu is excellent and captures a number of the issues that Urshifu causes. When building a new team, the first thing I look to fix is how the hell my team won't get completely pummeled by Urshifu. The answer, as raised above, is simply limited to Buzzwole. There is no other counter. Weezing for example just loses in the long run since a good player will never let it recover. Pain Split does not recover enough which gives Weezing two Urshifu switchins at best, particularly after taking hazard chip. A good player will get more than two free Urshifu switchins in a game so Weezing can't outlast it. Once Weezing is gone, Urshifu punches your whole team to death one by one each time it comes in.

Clefable is also not a counter to Urshifu, since CB or LO Poision Jab easily 2hko max bold Clef. Every time you switch to Clef you're risking losing Clef for the rest of game, since Clef will never recover off the damage if they did Poison Jab.

This is one of the main reasons that the Clef + Helmet Pex core is so common. When Urshifu comes out you simply have to switch to Pex to scout for the move it locks itself into, and then go to Clef if it hasn't clicked Poison Jab. Essentially, if you're not running Buzzwole, you need a Regen mon + Fairy with recovery (basically just Clef) to not lose a mon to Urshifu every time it comes in.

If you don't run these cores - particularly when using a slower team - Urshifu in the hands of a good player will simply overwhelm you, with games divolving into slug fests and sack wars where Urshifu punches another one of your mons to death each time it comes in.

The other issue is that Sucker Punch is ridiculous, and single handedly makes so many mons unviable. So many mons simply get knocked out by one CB/Dark Glasses Sucker Punch - and with Urshifu's high usage, this makes all of these mons not worth using IMO, as their usefulness is consistently thwarted by the existence of Urshifu.

If your team doesn't comprise the Pex + Fairy core, Buzzwole, or mons that are faster and capable of Koing Urshifu whilst being able to tank one Sucker Punch, it will just punch you to death every game. I certainly find it much more oppressive than Mag and Spectier, and I would be interested to see how many others think the same.

 

[SwaggySammy44]

Barraskewda

​

Barraskewda is the best swift swimmer in the game, and it's not even close. Having both the highest attack and speed out of all pokemon with swift swim, Barraskewda is arguably the most important member of any rain team. Base 136 speed, boosted by swift swim, is fucking ridiculous. Here's a list of unboosted mons that out speed Barraskewda under rain:

1. Timid Scarf Regieleki
2. That's all folks

So unless your someone who runs a fucking choice scarf on regieleki, your not gonna revenge kill this thing under rain without priority. This is the set I use:

Barraskewda @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Liquidation
- Close Combat
- Psychic Fangs
- Flip Turn

Banded Liquidation hits like a freight train and is the go to stab move for this set. Its ability to lower defense can make it easier to break through fatter mons. Flip Turn is a good pivot move that does more than enough damage and basically gives you a free chip on anything because of Barraskewda's high speed. Close combat and Psychic Fangs are both good coverage moves. Anything that switches in basically has to eat 2 banded attacks, and there aren't a lot of mons that want to do that. Overall, Barraskewda's combination of unmatched speed and solid breaking power make it one of my favorite pokemon to use in the tier.

 

[Gennie]

Couldn't you just refer me to the edit instead of doing this huge repost? Anyways, It's not supposed to explode, it's more so trying to be an attacking lead that stacks up speed boosts and gives the rest of the opposing team a pretty good bop, and Sash is just meant to extend its time on the field.

 

[Chameleon]

Agreed. (And if you are interested in a glass cannon, I suggest regieleki as an alternative) Switching gears, What are your guys thoughts on Wonder Room? It seems like it could be amazing when used correctly, (walling physical attackers with Blissey, breaking an opponents wall, etc.) But I'm stumped on ideas. It's probably just a gimmick unless mastered, but I'd find it really cool if we could assimilate our collective knowledge into this. (Also, I'm a bit of a noob, so pls excuse me if I'm somewhat ignorant!)

If you're looking for Wonder Room gimmicks, I have one for you. The move is seriously gimmicky; for it to be effective you need to have one incredible defense stat, the speed to change it before getting hit, and a reward like Weakness Policy / Recover to take advantage of it the next turn.

Stonjourner @ Weakness Policy
Adamant Nature
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Heat Crash
- Rock Polish
- Wonder Room

Stonjourner's 100 / 135 / 20 bulk makes it difficult to OHKO when hitting its stronger defense stat. Set up a Rock Polish, then use Wonder Room depending on the opponent's switch-in. Stonjourner can lure and punish bulky waters this way (if you don't get burned, that is - a huge caveat).

0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Stonjourner in Wonder Room: 134-158 (39.1 - 46.1%)
+2 252+ Atk Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Wonder Room: 417-492 (105.8 - 124.8%)
+2 252+ Atk Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Wonder Room: 256-303 (84.2 - 99.6%) (EQ OHKOs)

 

[JeffDaChef32]

Ruffles' post on Urshifu is excellent and captures a number of the issues that Urshifu causes. When building a new team, the first thing I look to fix is how the hell my team won't get completely pummeled by Urshifu. The answer, as raised above, is simply limited to Buzzwole. There is no other counter. Weezing for example just loses in the long run since a good player will never let it recover. Pain Split does not recover enough which gives Weezing two Urshifu switchins at best, particularly after taking hazard chip. A good player will get more than two free Urshifu switchins in a game so Weezing can't outlast it. Once Weezing is gone, Urshifu punches your whole team to death one by one each time it comes in.

Clefable is also not a counter to Urshifu, since CB or LO Poision Jab easily 2hko max bold Clef. Every time you switch to Clef you're risking losing Clef for the rest of game, since Clef will never recover off the damage if they did Poison Jab.

This is one of the main reasons that the Clef + Helmet Pex core is so common. When Urshifu comes out you simply have to switch to Pex to scout for the move it locks itself into, and then go to Clef if it hasn't clicked Poison Jab. Essentially, if you're not running Buzzwole, you need a Regen mon + Fairy with recovery (basically just Clef) to not lose a mon to Urshifu every time it comes in.

If you don't run these cores - particularly when using a slower team - Urshifu in the hands of a good player will simply overwhelm you, with games divolving into slug fests and sack wars where Urshifu punches another one of your mons to death each time it comes in.

The other issue is that Sucker Punch is ridiculous, and single handedly makes so many mons unviable. So many mons simply get knocked out by one CB/Dark Glasses Sucker Punch - and with Urshifu's high usage, this makes all of these mons not worth using IMO, as their usefulness is consistently thwarted by the existence of Urshifu.

If your team doesn't comprise the Pex + Fairy core, Buzzwole, or mons that are faster and capable of Koing Urshifu whilst being able to tank one Sucker Punch, it will just punch you to death every game. I certainly find it much more oppressive than Mag and Spectier, and I would be interested to see how many others think the same.

I'm a bit of a ferrothorn enthusiast, and I'd just like to say that when you give him a bully sweeper build, he can more often than not take out urshifu. (Maybe a curse, gyro ball, rest, sleep talk build?) But most of the time, I just run a revenge ditto to counter.

If you're looking for Wonder Room gimmicks, I have one for you. The move is seriously gimmicky; for it to be effective you need to have one incredible defense stat, the speed to change it before getting hit, and a reward like Weakness Policy / Recover to take advantage of it the next turn.

Stonjourner @ Weakness Policy
Adamant Nature
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Heat Crash
- Rock Polish
- Wonder Room

Stonjourner's 100 / 135 / 20 bulk makes it difficult to OHKO when hitting its stronger defense stat. Set up a Rock Polish, then use Wonder Room depending on the opponent's switch-in. Stonjourner can lure and punish bulky waters this way (if you don't get burned, that is - a huge caveat).

0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Stonjourner in Wonder Room: 134-158 (39.1 - 46.1%)
+2 252+ Atk Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Wonder Room: 417-492 (105.8 - 124.8%)
+2 252+ Atk Stonjourner Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Wonder Room: 256-303 (84.2 - 99.6%) (EQ OHKOs)

That looks really cool! I'll try it out! Thx!

Ausma edit: combined subsequent posts; be sure to avoid double posting!

 

[musiquepkmn]

Can I just say...THANK YOU. I actually used to bait Swords Dances instead of having Knock Off on this set (And Giga Impact was just added bc everyone told me to add it, idk why, doesn't work for me), but I didn't know if it was the right option for overall posting. I actually have plenty of games to post too (I mean, I don't have the replays since I post them all in OU chat, where they eventually just sink into the deep abyss.) Like, frankly, I've literally used ONLY Sash Kartana on my team and have fairly consistently swept about 3/6 Pokemon on average. Honestly, LO, Band, and Scarf are good items, but I feel like people only play it with those items and don't see its potential with other items such as Sash, and they underestimate its Attack and Speed when it holds no item. But you know, what works for some people doesn't work for others. Sash Kartana definitely works for me, but if you all, aside from Shurtugal, don't believe in its competitive capabilities, that's fine by me, but please, if you haven't already, try it before you judge how it isn't strong enough or fast enough, since its a very good competitive mon, and sash is just the one thing it needs to tank that flamethrower and get an added beast boost.

Also, DutroPodoboo (or something like that) said this:

"SD would actually be decent on a sash set, probably over smart strike because of how little steel hits. Sash could potentially give you a free set up so you can do more damage before you're KO'd. +2 leaf blade does a ton to anything that doesn't resist it, and hits fairy harder than an unboosted smart strike would because of its low power. Focus sash is not a great item in this meta because of all the priority + other chip damage that can break sash, but it's certainly not bad"

Honestly, I side with this, but I would get rid of Knock Off instead of Smart Strike for two reasons.

1: Steel STAB
2: Coverage

I mean, I've seen my fair share of Pheromosa in the metagame, and I'll likely continue to. Obviously, Mosa resists Leaf Blade, Sacred Sword, and Knock Off. But it doesn't resist Smart Strike, which definitively helps, since Mosa is a clear threat to Kartana. Although, Mosa is being suspect tested rn, and Knock Off covers other points in OU such as Dragapult, Latios, Spectrier, and all those ghost types in UUBL. So I suppose this would be a better suggestion. I think I'll make an edit to my set rn.

In other news, I might try AV Kartana if that's a good idea.

Don't use Giga Impact if you're not using Life Orb. With the Giga Impact set Kart really needs all the power it can get:

+2 252 Atk Kartana Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 323-381 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 420-495 (109.6 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Buzzwole: 112-132 (26.7 - 31.5%) -- 27.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Kartana Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Buzzwole: 249-293 (59.5 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 170-204 (65.6 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (20.3 - 24.4% recovered)
Non-LO +2 Kart is not able to 1v1 a Buzzwole after Rocks/slight chip, because neither Leaf Blade nor Giga Impact are KOing and Buzzwole can heal off most of the Leaf Blade damage with Drain Punch, meaning Leaf Blade into Giga Impact does not KO, even with Max rolls.
Buzzwole at 100% -> 87.5% after rocks -> 56% after max roll Kart Leaf Blade -> 76.3% after min roll Drain Punch recovery -> out of Non-LO Kart Giga Impact KO range, even with Kartana's most favorable rolls.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Buzzwole: 146-172 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 66.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Buzzwole: 324-381 (77.5 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 170-204 (65.6 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (20.3 - 24.4% recovered)
LO +2 Kart is able to 1v1 a Buzzwole after rocks, even with min rolls.
Buzzwole at 100% -> 87.5% after rocks -> 52.6% after min roll Leaf Blade -> 77% after max roll Drain Punch recovery -> in LO Kart Giga Impact KO range, regardless of roll.

Yes, I said that I wouldn't make another sash Kart post but I feel like just sharing these calcs anyways.

 

[100 Hoes Kaido]

Don't use Giga Impact if you're not using Life Orb. With the Giga Impact set Kart really needs all the power it can get:

+2 252 Atk Kartana Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 323-381 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 420-495 (109.6 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Buzzwole: 112-132 (26.7 - 31.5%) -- 27.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Kartana Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Buzzwole: 249-293 (59.5 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 170-204 (65.6 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (20.3 - 24.4% recovered)
Non-LO +2 Kart is not able to 1v1 a Buzzwole after Rocks/slight chip, because neither Leaf Blade nor Giga Impact are KOing and Buzzwole can heal off most of the Leaf Blade damage with Drain Punch, meaning Leaf Blade into Giga Impact does not KO, even with Max rolls.
Buzzwole at 100% -> 87.5% after rocks -> 56% after max roll Kart Leaf Blade -> 76.3% after min roll Drain Punch recovery -> out of Non-LO Kart Giga Impact KO range, even with Kartana's most favorable rolls.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Buzzwole: 146-172 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 66.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Buzzwole: 324-381 (77.5 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 170-204 (65.6 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (20.3 - 24.4% recovered)
LO +2 Kart is able to 1v1 a Buzzwole after rocks, even with min rolls.
Buzzwole at 100% -> 87.5% after rocks -> 52.6% after min roll Leaf Blade -> 77% after max roll Drain Punch recovery -> in LO Kart Giga Impact KO range, regardless of roll.

Yes, I said that I wouldn't make another sash Kart post but I feel like just sharing these calcs anyways.

That Moltres spread is fucked up.
You need speed evs, so that you can outspeed stuff like Modest Nidoking, Timid Heatran, Adamant Rilla, Timid/Modest 252 Magearna, max speed Aegi, others I don't remember right now etc and punish them accordingly.
Moltres @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Def / 152 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Roost
- Mystical Fire
- Scorching Sands


Needless to say, Moltres dies to Giga at +2, regardless of item choice, I don't want to voice my approval for giga Impact, and truthfully, I did not test Focus Sash enough, I'm just running Protective Pad on it. but if you want to REALLY kill Moltres, Giga Impact will do the work, at a great price.

 

[Gennie]

Don't use Giga Impact if you're not using Life Orb. With the Giga Impact set Kart really needs all the power it can get:

+2 252 Atk Kartana Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 323-381 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 420-495 (109.6 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Buzzwole: 112-132 (26.7 - 31.5%) -- 27.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Kartana Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Buzzwole: 249-293 (59.5 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 170-204 (65.6 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (20.3 - 24.4% recovered)
Non-LO +2 Kart is not able to 1v1 a Buzzwole after Rocks/slight chip, because neither Leaf Blade nor Giga Impact are KOing and Buzzwole can heal off most of the Leaf Blade damage with Drain Punch, meaning Leaf Blade into Giga Impact does not KO, even with Max rolls.
Buzzwole at 100% -> 87.5% after rocks -> 56% after max roll Kart Leaf Blade -> 76.3% after min roll Drain Punch recovery -> out of Non-LO Kart Giga Impact KO range, even with Kartana's most favorable rolls.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Buzzwole: 146-172 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 66.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Buzzwole: 324-381 (77.5 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 170-204 (65.6 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (20.3 - 24.4% recovered)
LO +2 Kart is able to 1v1 a Buzzwole after rocks, even with min rolls.
Buzzwole at 100% -> 87.5% after rocks -> 52.6% after min roll Leaf Blade -> 77% after max roll Drain Punch recovery -> in LO Kart Giga Impact KO range, regardless of roll.

Yes, I said that I wouldn't make another sash Kart post but I feel like just sharing these calcs anyways.

So...you're not gonna uphold your word, because you feel like sharing calcs. Okay then. Anyways, I didn't actually want to run Giga Impact. I just made the edit since you kept talking about it. What I want is advice for this set, you want to shut it down entirely and not point out any flaws of your set. And why the heck are you actually using Leaf Blade or Giga Impact on a Buzzwole? Leaf Blade isn't very effective, and Giga Impact just leaves you vulnerable and won't even kill Buzzwole. Legitimately, if I see Buzzwole can just tag into a flying type and one-shot, in which case I can also use Defog and erase rocks and spikes. But clearly, you're not gonna pay any attention to me, so...okay. I see you're not gonna point out any scenario where sash would be a more viable option, and you just want to get one-shot. Fine by me.

Kaido, I appreciate your statement very much. You actually acknowledge that you haven't used sash enough. I respect that. Thank you.

 

[Jordy]

I think that's enough discussion about Kartana for a while. Yes, Focus Sash lets Kartana live some unexpected stuff, but Life Orb has a lot of things going for it; its increased damage output is quite significant. Let's move on to more fruitful discussion now.

 

[Hobie]

Barraskewda @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Liquidation
- Close Combat
- Psychic Fangs
- Flip Turn

I think you point out exactly why Barraskewda is so good, mainly its power and speed, but I think overall Adamant is better than Jolly. Jolly does let Skewda do better outside of rain, letting it outspeed things above base 120 speed (most notably Torn-T, Koko, and Spectrier), however under rain the speed boost is basically irrelevent. The power boost from Adamant is significant, and because Skewda should basically always be under rain regardless the upside of Jolly doesn't come into play unless you play badly and lose your rain setter.

 

[Katy]

Tangrowth @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Giga Drain
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Worry Seed

Worry Seed Tangrowth is a legitimate Pokemon currently, as it removes a lot of annoying abilities and gives the opposing Pokemon Insomnia as its new ability. Worry Seed can catch Pokemon such as opposing regenerator Pokemon like Toxapex and Amoonguss, it can help vs Melmetal to remove its Iron Fist therefore making its attacks such as Double Iron bash, Thunder Punch, or Ice Punch less strong. Furthermore it can remove Static on Zapdos, to make it better handable for other physical attackers, and the same mention goes to Moltres' Flame Body.

In overall, this set can function pretty well as a lure and removes annoying abilities overall, gives the opposing Pokemon an ability, which is useless for it, and therefore Tangrowth and its teammates are capable of better dealing with such threats.


Tapu Lele @ Leftovers
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Stored Power

Is it a Magearna, no it's a Tapu Lele. This set can work on rather offensive oriented Teams, with support from Screens or Veil. It can Iron defense up and furthermore makes use of its second boosting-move in Calm Mind. Calm Mind + Iron Defense pose a threat, when Tapu Lele got them up already at least once, as it makes it not easy to remove Tapu Lele because of its Defense- and Special defense-boost. This Set is good with some longevity given, that is why I chose Leftovers. So it has more turns to set both its Moves up.

 

[musiquepkmn]

In overall, this set can function pretty well as a lure and removes annoying abilities overall, gives the opposing Pokemon an ability, which is useless for it, and therefore Tangrowth and its teammates are capable of better dealing with such threats.

I'm pretty sure that their ability resets once they switch out, meaning it can help in 1v1 scenarios and vs regen cores but not against Flame Body Moltres, unless you're going to be switching Rillaboom and Pheromosa into it.

 

[glava222]

Since we were talking about sashes the whole day, I would like to put forward a bit of a different sash pokemon:

Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Counter
- Psychic/Expanding force
- Focus Blast/Shadow Ball
- Thunder Wave/Shadow Ball

Some pros of this is that magic guard is a great ability for preserving your sash, and alakazam's awful defense stat means it will take a bajilion damage from even resisted hits, so if you are taking a physical hit, you are taking something down. Now they have to send out a revenge killer since alakazam is still very fast and hits pretty fast. After it kills alakazam, you can send in your check to the revenge killer have tempo again. This set also serves to punish uturn without predicting what the opponent will switch into, and it's speed and special attack means that even at 1 hp against some teams it can still get a nasty hit in, especially if they wanted to uturn to a faster pokemon that is now KOd by your alakazam.

This set is best used as a lure, especially as a lead (does wonders against pivot phero, for it will 100% uturn if it sees alakazam). While honestly I don't think it would be a good set in general, it does prey on the fact that no one expects it very well.

Focus blast vs. shadow ball depends on whether you want to do more damage to latios/dragapult/tapu lele or you want to deal with ferro/excadrill/ttar.

Since by nature this set will often get KOs against thing that supposedly counter it, as a pairing I would recommend a mon that serves a similair purpose to it that can use the hole left by alakazam. Enter tapu lele. The enemy will probably suspect expanding force out of your alakazam (which to be fair you might be running, but that is less important here), but you can just open a hole for your lele to go ape on the enemy team once you have lured and taken out that barra/rilla/sucker punch urshifu/sand rush exca/Kartana/maybe even corviknight on the uturn/whatever

 

[Katy]

I'm pretty sure that their ability resets once they switch out, meaning it can help in 1v1 scenarios and vs regen cores but not against Flame Body Moltres, unless you're going to be switching Rillaboom and Pheromosa into it.

No, it doesn't reset. I searched on like plenty of different Pokemon Websites, just to be absolutely sure, but none of them said anything about a reset of their ability upon a switch. So the targets ability stays to be Insomnia even when the opposing Battler calls its Pokemon back.

 

[Seth Vilo]

No, it doesn't reset. I searched on like plenty of different Pokemon Websites, just to be absolutely sure, but none of them said anything about a reset of their ability upon a switch. So the targets ability stays to be Insomnia even when the opposing Battler calls its Pokemon back.

Bulbapedia says it resets upon switch out.

Edit: I realize the argument may have been about if the Pokemon gets Regenerator healing, which it wouldn't. You are right that it's Insomnia until it's back in the ball and Regen wouldn't activate. But it's not Insomnia permanently for the battle.

 

[100 Hoes Kaido]

No, it doesn't reset. I searched on like plenty of different Pokemon Websites, just to be absolutely sure, but none of them said anything about a reset of their ability upon a switch. So the targets ability stays to be Insomnia even when the opposing Battler calls its Pokemon back.

Ability change is temporary:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1241780859-eg0rgt1g27vyyvkznqutuu5wr0wlnhspw

I guess you could use it to avoid making Ferrothorn/Tangrowth a Regenerator fodder, but it's not "definitive" as a solution.

 

[Katy]

Bulbapedia says it resets upon switch out.

View attachment 299083

Edit: I realize the argument may have been about if the Pokemon gets Regenerator healing, which it wouldn't. You are right that it's Insomnia until it's back in the ball and Regen wouldn't activate. But it's not Insomnia permanently for the battle.

Ability change is temporary:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1241780859-eg0rgt1g27vyyvkznqutuu5wr0wlnhspw

I guess you could use it to avoid making Ferrothorn/Tangrowth a Regenerator fodder, but it's not "definitive" as a solution.

Hey, I think I worded that Zapdos and Moltres bit wrong. I didn't take into account that it could be minsunderstood that the Worry Seed change is permanent, and from the way I worded it, it looks like the change stays, which isn't true. Thank you for pointing that out and correcting me.

 

[JeffDaChef32]

Would comboing worry seed with meanlook/block, etc. be worth it in some cases? Severely crippling some pokemon, like a sheer force nidoking with life orb, or something along those lines? That way they can't just switch to regain their ability. Also, what would happen if you used worry seed on ditto after transforming via imposter?

 

[Seth Vilo]

Would comboing worry seed with meanlook/block, etc. be worth it in some cases? Severely crippling some pokemon, like a sheer force nidoking with life orb, or something along those lines? That way they can't just switch to regain their ability. Also, what would happen if you used worry seed on ditto after transforming via imposter?

The former would work I suppose. The problem in your example is that Worry Seed users are typically Grass-types, so SF or not Nidoking wrecks them anyway, let alone those with Worry Seed + Block. I feel like it would be too many moveslots to dedicate to something that won't work a majority of the time. Not many Pokemon are 100% reliant on both their Ability and staying in, while also being threatened by your remaining 2 moves. For your second question, the Ditto has already lost Imposter post-transformation. Worry Seed would suppress whatever ability it copied. Example: if Ditto came in directly on your Tangrowth, it now has Regenerator after Imposter happens (which is before any move in the turn order). Worry Seed - used on the swith-in - now replaces the copied Regenerator with Insomnia, meaning Ditto won't heal on its way out. It does not undo Imposter.

 

[Vincent210]

With all due respect, if we’re here debating whether or not a mechanic even works the way its intended, then that means not enough testing happened.

A metagame discussion thread honestly shouldn’t even bring up untested gimmicks; if you want to talk shop about an underused mon or unique lure set, you should show up to the thread already armed with results and issues from hard fought games to talk about. This feels very wasteful the way its going.

To add something to, and perhaps recenter, the discussion, I wanted to talk a little about role compression on Rain.

Lately I often find myself almost being outright forced to bolt a Blissey onto my rain teams because making room for Pelipper and for abusers and for a Spectrier check and an Urshifu check while compressing hazards, defog, and other major threat-checks (hi Magearna) is kind of insane. It’s also deceptively hard to place Defog. Pelipper doesn’t want it and isn’t great at the role, unable to carry boots and too important to be forced in for the job. Zapdos would rather have, frankly, anything else in slot 4, but particularly Roost + 3 Attacks.

What mons are you using to round your rain team these days? For what it’s worth, my inexperienced self is doing something like this.

 

[kosecant]

With all due respect, if we’re here debating whether or not a mechanic even works the way its intended, then that means not enough testing happened.

A metagame discussion thread honestly shouldn’t even bring up untested gimmicks; if you want to talk shop about an underused mon or unique lure set, you should show up to the thread already armed with results and issues from hard fought games to talk about. This feels very wasteful the way its going.

To add something to, and perhaps recenter, the discussion, I wanted to talk a little about role compression on Rain.

Lately I often find myself almost being outright forced to bolt a Blissey onto my rain teams because making room for Pelipper and for abusers and for a Spectrier check and an Urshifu check while compressing hazards, defog, and other major threat-checks (hi Magearna) is kind of insane. It’s also deceptively hard to place Defog. Pelipper doesn’t want it and isn’t great at the role, unable to carry boots and too important to be forced in for the job. Zapdos would rather have, frankly, anything else in slot 4, but particularly Roost + 3 Attacks.

What mons are you using to round your rain team these days? For what it’s worth, my inexperienced self is doing something like this.

If you're already running offensive zapdos on rain, then I think utility torn t is a good defogger, as immediate power is usually better on weather teams where using rain turns to set up is not a fantastic idea, especially if you're using weather ball or hurricane which are significantly less useful outside of rain. Torn still has decent offensive presence with hurricane, and u-turn forms a nasty flip turn core with barraskewda.

 

[JeffDaChef32]

With all due respect, if we’re here debating whether or not a mechanic even works the way its intended, then that means not enough testing happened.

A metagame discussion thread honestly shouldn’t even bring up untested gimmicks; if you want to talk shop about an underused mon or unique lure set, you should show up to the thread already armed with results and issues from hard fought games to talk about. This feels very wasteful the way its going.

To add something to, and perhaps recenter, the discussion, I wanted to talk a little about role compression on Rain.

Lately I often find myself almost being outright forced to bolt a Blissey onto my rain teams because making room for Pelipper and for abusers and for a Spectrier check and an Urshifu check while compressing hazards, defog, and other major threat-checks (hi Magearna) is kind of insane. It’s also deceptively hard to place Defog. Pelipper doesn’t want it and isn’t great at the role, unable to carry boots and too important to be forced in for the job. Zapdos would rather have, frankly, anything else in slot 4, but particularly Roost + 3 Attacks.

What mons are you using to round your rain team these days? For what it’s worth, my inexperienced self is doing something like this.

Maybe replace fini for assault vest volcanion? This will give you some more type variety and counter possible killers to pelliper and barraskewda. It seems like your team is a bit on the light side, so a strong support could maybe help. (also maybe wish on Blissey to heal him and buzzwole up?)

 

[ScarfchomperL100]

Maybe replace fini for assault vest volcanion? This will give you some more type variety and counter possible killers to pelliper and barraskewda. It seems like your team is a bit on the light side, so a strong support could maybe help. (also maybe wish on Blissey to heal him and buzzwole up?)

Wouldn't that worsen his hazard control by a decently big amount? Running Assault Vest on Volcanion means you give up running Defog on that as well as a Stealth Rock immunity due to the boots, which in turns makes it harder to support other teammates like Pelipper and the non-Boots Thundurus-T who are also weak to Stealth Rock. Pelipper can defog if he needs it, but it's not the best one since Damp Rock makes it Stealth Rock weak.

Also his Blissey has Teleport, which is illegal with Wish on Blissey, so it will have to give up a lot of opportunity cost by not running the coveted Teleport bringing in frail partners like Barraskewda and Thundurus-T in safely, especially since a moveslot is devoted to Shadow Ball for Spectrier.

 

[Gennie]

WIP OU Tornadus-Therian Set
Name: Speedy Special Attacker
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Blunder Policy
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Heat Wave

Set Notes:

Tornadus' versatile learnset makes it a fear-inducing threat of the OU format, however, most of its powerful attacks don't have 100% accuracy, making essential attacks miss. With the Blunder Policy, it can still be relied on as a Special Attacker, but can also be relied on for its sheer speed if it misses. Using the Blunder Policy, Tornadus can even outspeed Regieleki and many other pokemon in the format, with Nasty Plot to increase any Special Attack it's lacking, this Tornadus set makes a very versatile and formidable foe.

Tell me if you use this set and if you have any notes.