Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Gennie]

WIP OU Tornadus-Therian Set
Name: Speedy Special Attacker
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Blunder Policy
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Heat Wave

Set Notes:

Tornadus' versatile learnset makes it a fear-inducing threat of the OU format, however, most of its powerful attacks don't have 100% accuracy, making essential attacks miss. With the Blunder Policy, it can still be relied on as a Special Attacker, but can also be relied on for its sheer speed if it misses. Using the Blunder Policy, Tornadus can even outspeed Regieleki and many other pokemon in the format, with Nasty Plot to increase any Special Attack it's lacking, this Tornadus set makes a very versatile and formidable foe.

Tell me if you use this set and if you have any notes.

Hey guys. Once again just checking if you have any input on this Tornadus set. It seems like you guys were in the middle of a discussion when I posted it, so I'll let ya'll be. Although, if any of you find the time, I would really enjoy input if you have any. Generally speaking, this seems viable, but I also thought that other...non-specific things were viable, so I would definitively appreciate any help you may be willing to give. Thanks in advance!

-Gennie

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

Hey guys. Once again just checking if you have any input on this Tornadus set. It seems like you guys were in the middle of a discussion when I posted it, so I'll let ya'll be. Although, if any of you find the time, I would really enjoy input if you have any. Generally speaking, this seems viable, but I also thought that other...non-specific things were viable, so I would definitively appreciate any help you may be willing to give. Thanks in advance!

-Gennie

I guess that Blunder Policy on Torn-T could sometimes work, but I don't think that it would be at all consistent enough to warrant much use. Boots are likely just the best item in the game, and it's really difficult to not run them on something that is Stealth Rocks weak, like Torn-T. Torn-T usually works best as an offensive pivot that either grabs momentum with U-turn or provides utility with Knock Off or Defog. Boots, coupled with Regenerator, greatly improves Torn-T's longevity, so I think it's very hard to pass up.

Regarding the Blunder Policy set you posted, I get the idea you're going for, but you really want a set to offer consistent value, and I don't feel like your Blunder Policy one does that. First, Torn-T is naturally very fast so it already outpaces most of the tier without any boost. Secondly, in order to take advantage of Blunder Policy, you need to miss an attack in the first place, which isn't ideal since Torn-T isn't particularly bulky. Combine this with your set wanting to get off a Nasty Plot as well to potentially sweep and you're looking at two empty turns where Torn could just be taking hits that it likely won't absorb very well, especially considering it would also take 25% if Rocks are up due to the lack of boots. Additionally, even if you manage to get off a Nasty Plot and proc the Blunder Policy, you're still relying on hitting the relatively inaccurate moves to break through (which I feel like is a problem in general with trying to use Nasty Plot on Torn-T outside of rain, but that doesn't inherently have anything to do with your Blunder Policy set). Finally, using Blunder Policy on Torn kind of invalidates the usefulness of its Regenerator. If you do proc the speed boost from Blunder Policy, you're going to likely want to stay in and take advantage of it. If you do switch out and get the Regenerator recovery, you'll lose your speed boost and the Blunder Policy will be gone for the battle. I think that the longevity of Regenerator and its pivoting ability are two of the biggest components of what makes Torn-T good, so I feel like you should try to capitalize on that if you're going to use Torn-T (which again, is why Boots are so nice on it). I personally don't think that Blunder Policy would provide value consistently enough to be worth using, but I do appreciate you trying to come up with less conventional sets.

 

[Gennie]

Hmm...do you think it would work better as a lead?

 

[Zneon]

Okay so with Pheromosa being suspected and discussions about potential suspects, I want to give my full thoughts on the 2 Pokemon that seem to be getting the more attention for the next suspect. Urshifu-S and Magearna. I've already given my thoughts on Spectrier a while ago and everything I said there still applies so that won't be included. Anyway with that said lets go.

So I'm going to start with Urshifu-S first because its much more straightforward than Magearna is in my eyes and that's really only because it performs as a breaker while Magearna performs as a million other things so that will be longer. Anyway, I feel Urshifu-S is ridiculous, I feel it is the best abuser of Future Sight because its already very hard to handle even without Future Sight; it can really only be checked consistently by Fairy-types and Buzzwole and with Future Sight in the picture, they cannot switch into Urshifu. This is in my opinion why Urshifu-S is easily the most problematic user of Future Sight in the metagame and why it should be looked at before Future Sight does. It's a pretty easy Pokemon to support and because of that it makes sure that Urshifu-S is always going to make progress in some way since again, Urshifu-S has a lack of consistent checks and counters and when you pair it with amazing support it becomes even harder to really handle. Slowbro, Slowking, Tapu Koko, and Magearna help make its job of bopping the opposing team much easier. Teams kinda mandate a Dark resist, or multiple checks and counters on a team because any chip damage on its already very limited pool of answers can be disastrous if they are chipped into Urshifu range, and I don't think that is healthy.

So yeah in conclusion, Urshifu-S is very hard to handle consistently even without FS and because of that I would rather have that looked at before FS gets looked at since while I feel FS is problematic, I feel Urshifu-S being so problematic on its own is just enough to have that being looked at first and then we can see how FS affects the metagame.

Alrighty now the bigger one, Magearna. So I feel Magearna is a much harder Pokemon to talk about because of how much it adds to the tier. Its can be a potent breaker, a setup sweeper, an amazing trick room setter, or a defensive pivot. The amount Magearna adds to the metagame both offensively and defensively gives a lot of positives to the tier and this is the exact reason why Magearna is a more conflicting Pokemon to talk about to me. However I don't think Magearna is as problematic as people think despite me thinking its potentially problematic, so I want to talk about why I think Magearna is less problematic than Urshifu-S.

So we all know Magearna's big thing, its incredible versatility. It can do so many things that accounting for it is not that easy. Choice Specs is its best set at the moment since I feel it doesn't really have true counters, because of this I feel Choice Specs is the most consistent set out of its other sets. However I don't even think its broken right now, and the reason why is because there are a quite a few stops to it that are pretty common in the metagame. Toxapex, Blissey, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Glowking are examples of Pokemon that can check it really well defensively and while they are definitely prone to getting Tricked, the loss in power can make it much more manageable to deal with. Even outside of that, using Poison + Ground core makes it so the Magearna user will need to make hard predictions to successfully break past it. Glowking, Toxapex and Amoonguss are viable Pokemon in the metagame and pretty easy to fit onto a team since teams do need a toxic immune, and Ground-types pretty much fit onto teams like a glove because volt blockers are highly recommended, if not mandatory in my eyes in order to not be a punching bag for VoltTurn teams.

Now I can understand why Magearna has so much attention and why its so controversial and its because when you combine all the sets it has, it really doesn't have that much counterplay options. I feel Double Dance + Choice Specs make its pool of checks and counters pretty limited and speaking of Shift Gear, that's a highly potent set. While I do not think its as splashable as Choice Specs I feel its potency is insane because of how many variations it has. Weakness Policy + Shift Gear, Stored Power, Shuca Berry, etc, it just has so many options you can go with that its pretty hard to really account for without losing a Pokemon or even potentially losing the game after it uses Shift Gear. This is the main reason why I feel Magearna is still a potentially problematic Pokemon despite it not being as much of a problematic Pokemon as Urshifu-S is.

======

So yeah to recap, Urshifu-S is problematic as heck and Magearna potentially is but its not as much of an issue as Urshifu-S is. Though I want to know your opinions on these 2 guys. Which one of these are more problematic? Do you find Magearna to be more problematic than Urshifu-S or do you find them both equally as suspect/ban worthy as eachother? I would love to know your opinions!

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

Hmm...do you think it would work better as a lead?

I don't think that you should consider certain Pokemon as leads in modern gens; there haven't been dedicated leads since DPP. To decide on what to lead, I recommend that you first look at your opponent's team and try to predict each of the general sets of their six Pokemon. Then, you can either decide which of their Pokemon is the most troublesome for you to handle and you can lead your best option against it (since you don't want to end up with the worst possible lead matchup for you), or you can lead whichever of your Pokemon you think their team is the shakiest against. However, as a disclaimer, I primarily build and use balance teams, so that thought process regarding deciding a lead isn't as applicable if you're using something like HO and just want to get up hazards or screens as soon as possible. If you are using a balance team though, I feel like you want your team, and the individual sets for the Pokemon you use, to be flexible enough to give you options against the most common Pokemon/playstyles in the metagame. This is why I don't think that more specific or niche sets like Blunder Policy Torn are very good because they aren't as flexible (meaning they can't be used in as many circumstances) or reliable as a pivoting Torn with Boots. Again, this is just my personal philosophy, but I like to build teams/sets that give me options to respond to common situations or Pokemon, so then it's up to me to make the best decisions when I play. You're always going to run into bad matchups from time to time and occasionally a set like Blunder Policy Torn will matchup really well against the opposing team and sweep, but I like to try to build to give myself enough outs and ways to apply pressure against the majority of what you'll run into, instead of trying to maximize on specific conditions (like Torn sweeping with Nasty Plot and Blunder Policy). This is why consistency and reliability in sets are so important, not necessarily what a set could do if the proper circumstances align. I hope that's helpful and that I articulated my thought process clearly enough.

 

[Gennie]

Yeah, I understand. Thanks for your help! I've been working more so in the NU field recently anyways.

 

[kingmickey27]

Teleport
I talked about this on my VR post, but I'll say it again here. I personally think that the potency of the Slow twins actually comes from Regenerator + Teleport on a bulky water (not Futureport). If played right, Teleport can keep the momentum in your favor as you safely bring in your wallbreakers and constantly force your opponent to switch and eat chip damage. Most of the time, there is 0 cost in clicking Teleport because Regenerator will heal off the damage taken and there is no prediction involved with using the move (you see what the opponent does first, then you respond accordingly).

Here's a 1800-1900s ladder replay illustrating my point.

Comments

I'm not the best player and my opponent didn't make the best plays during the match, but I think it more or less showcases what I mean. Throughout the match, I clicked Teleport 99% of the time, making it difficult for my opponent to take control of the match (turn 42, 61, 68 for example). Slowking's Regenerator + Teleport ensured I could keep my team healthy by safely bringing them in. Slowking himself never dies because of Regenerator. And towards the end of the game (after Mandibuzz and Kartana Knock'ed Off Boots/Leftovers), Teleport/U-turn forced the opponent to constantly switch and eat chip damage which was key for taking down Blissey.

Teleport also had an interesting situation on turn 74, where it was a win-win situation for me if I clicked Teleport. If the opponent stayed in, I would have simply switched in Tapu Koko/Garchomp to force the opponent out again. If the opponent switched to Blissey, the blob would have eaten chip damage and I would switch into Cinderace/Garchomp to force it out. Essentially, it was impossible for the opponent to take control of the match in this situation. There was 0 skill or prediction involved with my using of Teleport in this match.

Here's another replay, which would have ended up more or less the same way.

Comments

Knock Off from Mandibuzz/Kart was helpful in removing boots/lefties. Swampert specifically is on a timer because it cannot heal without its item. Then throughout the match Teleport + Hazards would have force his team to constantly switch and eat chip damage, slowly wearing it down.

========
Future Sight

Regarding Future Sight

I don't think that Future Sight is broken because the concept has existed in previous generations ever since the move was buffed to 120 BP. Mons (including the Slow twins) have had access to the move since XY, and used it pretty often to force switches on the opponent. However, they were never once considered problematic in the past.

So, why are people suddenly complaining about it this generation? What changed?

Imo, it was the abusers. Mons like Urshifu are insanely destructive whenever it switches in and can cause guessing games between it's STABS/Poison Jab. Many of the few reliable switch-ins it has (Buzzwole/Clefable) find it harder to switch-in when Future Sight is in play, applying greater pressure on the opponent. Generally speaking, no mon is safe from Urshifu when it comes in, and when supplemented by Future Sight, that only furthers its potential.

That being said, I believe that is it actually overbearing abusers like Urshifu, that's the issue here. Not Future Sight as a move.

 

[glava222]

Alrighty now the bigger one, Magearna. So I feel Magearna is a much harder Pokemon to talk about because of how much it adds to the tier. Its can be a potent breaker, a setup sweeper, an amazing trick room setter, or a defensive pivot. The amount Magearna adds to the metagame both offensively and defensively gives a lot of positives to the tier and this is the exact reason why Magearna is a more conflicting Pokemon to talk about to me. However I don't think Magearna is as problematic as people think despite me thinking its potentially problematic, so I want to talk about why I think Magearna is less problematic than Urshifu-S.

So we all know Magearna's big thing, its incredible versatility. It can do so many things that accounting for it is not that easy. Choice Specs is its best set at the moment since I feel it doesn't really have true counters, because of this I feel Choice Specs is the most consistent set out of its other sets. However I don't even think its broken right now, and the reason why is because there are a quite a few stops to it that are pretty common in the metagame. Toxapex, Blissey, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Glowking are examples of Pokemon that can check it really well defensively and while they are definitely prone to getting Tricked, the loss in power can make it much more manageable to deal with. Even outside of that, using Poison + Ground core makes it so the Magearna user will need to make hard predictions to successfully break past it. Glowking, Toxapex and Amoonguss are viable Pokemon in the metagame and pretty easy to fit onto a team since teams do need a toxic immune, and Ground-types pretty much fit onto teams like a glove because volt blockers are highly recommended, if not mandatory in my eyes in order to not be a punching bag for VoltTurn teams.

Now I can understand why Magearna has so much attention and why its so controversial and its because when you combine all the sets it has, it really doesn't have that much counterplay options. I feel Double Dance + Choice Specs make its pool of checks and counters pretty limited and speaking of Shift Gear, that's a highly potent set. While I do not think its as splashable as Choice Specs I feel its potency is insane because of how many variations it has. Weakness Policy + Shift Gear, Stored Power, Shuca Berry, etc, it just has so many options you can go with that its pretty hard to really account for without losing a Pokemon or even potentially losing the game after it uses Shift Gear. This is the main reason why I feel Magearna is still a potentially problematic Pokemon despite it not being as much of a problematic Pokemon as Urshifu-S is.

I'll touch on magearna for now since I don't have the willpower to write about both of them.
Honestly to me none of the magearna sets feel overbearing or too powerful by themselves; they are just regular good OU pokemon sets. The thing with magearna is it's just so versatile it forces you to make plays that may or may not be suboptimal to scout it depending on its' set, and guessing what exact set it's running wrong can have repercussions ranging from you having a hole in your team to getting swept at the worst, depending on your team and the set in question. So you have to pretend it's the worst case scenario unless you have a strong indication it's a specific set, which lets all of the sets get away with more than they should reasonably get away with, if they were the only magearna set in existence. Also even if you can rule out some stuff in the team preview, it's hard to pinpoint exactly what this specific magearna is running, which can influence the match greatly.
That said, there are some things none of the sets can handle well without a decent amount of support. The foremost being decently strong STAB ground attacks faster than it, which is something that is probably on most teams if mage didn't get a shift gear in. Nidoking is a good check to most magearna and can even counter a decent amount of its sets (basically those without stored power or ice beam, and ice beam seems decently rare). The similar thing is true for decently strong STAB fire attacks. Most sets also have little to no recovery making them relatively hard to consistently switch in on attacks it doesn't resist.
Some other things to consider are the positives magearna brings to the tier. One of the biggest ones is that it is a mon that can take a FS quite well, regardless of set, which makes playing around it a lot easier unless the opponent is using a cinderace. It can help trick room teams, even though they still aren't that great. It can also check some dangerous mons like urshifu(not a hard check, but there are a lot of situations where urshifu can't come in on it or loses a straight 1v1 if magearna isn't chipped),lele,latios and similar. Trick and setup variants can also pressure the giga slow stall teams without straight up invalidating them, creating a situation where both players are on their toes, but no one is immediately far behind.
Tldr: The power of magearna's sets is inflated by the versatility of the mon necessitating some suboptimal plays in the early game until the set is determined, which lets it do more than it should. Otherwise it has a lot of good traits mixed with the bad, and in my opinion should stay in OU, as it is a net positive influence on the tier.

 

[bmc023]

Wasn’t sure where else to put this... quick shoutout to the people that tagged in each in the Dex so you don’t have to search while looking at checks/counters/teammates.

So this isn’t completely derailed and keeping in line with meta discussion - been seeing a bunch of dracovolt ladder sand teams. Any reason for this uptick?

 

[Lando-San]

Wasn’t sure where else to put this... quick shoutout to the people that tagged in each in the Dex so you don’t have to search while looking at checks/counters/teammates.

So this isn’t completely derailed and keeping in line with meta discussion - been seeing a bunch of dracovolt ladder sand teams. Any reason for this uptick?

Dracozolt is a great mon for sand teams because of how hard to switch-in is Electric/Dragon/Fire coverage and the speed it provides under sand. It destroys bulky Flying-types like Corviknight, Celesteela, Moltres, Zapdos and Skarmory with its strong Electric-type STAB; those mons give Excadrill headaches, so it helps a lot weakening those C&C for Excadrill and other common partners like Buzzwole and Kartana. Also, it can lure-in and weaken Ground-type mons like Landorus-T with Draco Meteor, it can OHKO Def Ferrothorn with Fire Blast and in general lines, it improves a lot the matchup of sand versus rain teams through weakening their Electric immunity with Draco Meteor (against Swampert for example), destroying their Ground immunity (Tornadus-T for example) and taking down Ferrothorn with Fire Blast, which can 2HKO Def Ferro even in rain. It provides sand teams another speed control measure, allowing you to play your Excadrill using its great defensive typing to check mons like Koko and Regieleki.

This mon is a great addition this gen for sand teams!

 

[zedhatool]

So this isn’t completely derailed and keeping in line with meta discussion - been seeing a bunch of dracovolt ladder sand teams. Any reason for this uptick?

Dracozolt, like Dracovish, is a nuke to anything that isn't immune or a very bulky resist. This forces your opponent to make extremely telegraphed plays that allow you to make aggressive switches. Moreover, once that bulky resist dies then Dracozolt can clean up. Personally, I am not a big fan of Dracozolt, because many teams have multiple ground types or have another way of checking Excadrill that allows their Dracozolt answer to stay healthy, for example, Hippowdon + Moltres against Dracozolt + non-Rock Slide Excadrill.

Dracozolt also uses mixed sets with Life Orb Bolt Beak/Fire Blast/Draco Meteor/Last to surprise the bulky grasses and grounds that get sent in, but especially with the rise of SpDef Hippowdon and Fire Blast's mediocre accuracy, these are often inconsistent. Perhaps an even bigger disadvantage is that Dracozolt does not have the best stats, meaning that it must often fully invest in Special Attack if it wants to do anything with a mixed set. But when fully invested in Special Attack, Bolt Beak doesn't hit that hard, so the whole being-a-nuke thing goes down the drain.

Dracozolt is a great mon for sand teams. It destroys bulky Flying-types like Corviknight, Celesteela, Moltres, Zapdos and Skarmory with its strong Electric-type STAB

This is not entirely true. Dracozolt is almost never going to touch a Corviknight with Bolt Beak, because it will just switch out. If I have Corviknight + Hippowdon or Corviknight + Tangrowth or really any combination of [Excadrill answer] and [Dracozolt answer], this strategy breaks down because they share relatively few checks. Excadrill is in general checked by physically bulky Flying types whereas Dracozolt is checked by physically bulky ground types. The overlap in their defensive answers is basically just Hippowdon.

If you want a mon that will reliably remove Corviknight for an Excadrill sweep, look no further than Magnezone, the OG. This will force your opponent to play in a very "cramped" way around your Excadrill, for fear of getting trapped. Dracozolt can threaten Corviknight out, but getting damage on it won't really happen.

I don't want this post to be completely negative, so one way I think is good to use Dracozolt is with Spikes support and teleport. With a mixed set and Spikes, the answers to the mixed set end up folding. Still, the combination of LO + Sand really hampers its longevity, which is why I would pair it with Wish + Teleport Clefable. This way it has the longevity and the extra chip from Spikes to be able to beat the sturdy Ground and Grass types that would otherwise terrorize it.

 

[Liquidocelot]

Dracozolt, like Dracovish, is a nuke to anything that isn't immune or a very bulky resist. This forces your opponent to make extremely telegraphed plays that allow you to make aggressive switches. Moreover, once that bulky resist dies then Dracozolt can clean up. Personally, I am not a big fan of Dracozolt, because many teams have multiple ground types or have another way of checking Excadrill that allows their Dracozolt answer to stay healthy, for example, Hippowdon + Moltres against Dracozolt + non-Rock Slide Excadrill.

Dracozolt also uses mixed sets with Life Orb Bolt Beak/Fire Blast/Draco Meteor/Last to surprise the bulky grasses and grounds that get sent in, but especially with the rise of SpDef Hippowdon and Fire Blast's mediocre accuracy, these are often inconsistent. Perhaps an even bigger disadvantage is that Dracozolt does not have the best stats, meaning that it must often fully invest in Special Attack if it wants to do anything with a mixed set. But when fully invested in Special Attack, Bolt Beak doesn't hit that hard, so the whole being-a-nuke thing goes down the drain.



This is not entirely true. Dracozolt is almost never going to touch a Corviknight with Bolt Beak, because it will just switch out. If I have Corviknight + Hippowdon or Corviknight + Tangrowth or really any combination of [Excadrill answer] and [Dracozolt answer], this strategy breaks down because they share relatively few checks. Excadrill is in general checked by physically bulky Flying types whereas Dracozolt is checked by physically bulky ground types. The overlap in their defensive answers is basically just Hippowdon.

If you want a mon that will reliably remove Corviknight for an Excadrill sweep, look no further than Magnezone, the OG. This will force your opponent to play in a very "cramped" way around your Excadrill, for fear of getting trapped. Dracozolt can threaten Corviknight out, but getting damage on it won't really happen.

I don't want this post to be completely negative, so one way I think is good to use Dracozolt is with Spikes support and teleport. With a mixed set and Spikes, the answers to the mixed set end up folding. Still, the combination of LO + Sand really hampers its longevity, which is why I would pair it with Wish + Teleport Clefable. This way it has the longevity and the extra chip from Spikes to be able to beat the sturdy Ground and Grass types that would otherwise terrorize it.

So I am here to defend my bo dracozolt and clear up some misconceptions you have. Also to plug the Ocelzolt once more.

Ocelzolt (Dracozolt) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 108 Atk / 212 SpA / 188 Spe
Rash Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Earthquake
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast

Alright in your post you say Zolt has trouble with SPD Hippowdown which is true and a real trouble for sand teams. However with the imminent ban of Phero and its ice beam sets and the rise of Urshifu again, I predict a drop in SPD Hippo.

Bow onto the misconceptions.

You're wrong about Zolt needing to run Max SPA for mixed sets. With only 212 ev's and a mild nature it ohko's after SR Buzzwole, Ferrothorn, offensive Lando-T, Tangrowth and much much more. Anything above that is redundant as hit doesn't hit any relevant 2hko's and also loses in power. You also don't need to run max speed.

This allows Zolt to run enough Att ev's. To make it so no non resist/immunity can switch into Zolt's Bolt Beak.

Also while Hippowdown is a reliable counter. There is not another Ground type in OU that can repeatedly switch into Zolt. Swampert is 3hko'd by LO Draco and has no recovery. Chomp is Ohko'd and Exca is Ohko'd by Fire Blast and not every team runs SPD Hippo either. Though it's good and healthythat it has a strict counter.

Finally you said Zolt gets chipped down by LO and sand but Sand Rush makes him immune to sand so only LO.

Also both Corvi + Tangrowth are beat by LO Fire Blast

 

[glava222]

yh that ocelzolt set is scary af, it's the only reason I run sand rush on a non sand team excadrill to just not get reamed by it when I'm playing stall

 

[clean]

I know this topic has been touched on by others, but I feel like I need to bring it up again.



Sand Veil/BrightPowder Garchomp is extremely strong, despite how little use it sees. To give some context, with sand up, all 100% accurate moves are 67% accurate. Attempting any move with less than 100% accuracy is a flimsy strategy at best. I know the council does not complex ban, and I have advocated in favor of that sentiment multiple times in this thread, but I seriously think this set should be looked at as something uncompetitive.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1242631115-hw1hlnvbo26ttm5ldgvqi0td1116a62pw

(skip to turn 20)

This replay here shows how brutal this set can be. Despite me missing a Scale Shot on a full phys def Mandibuzz, the opponent proceeds to get RNG'd and miss two straight foul plays, allowing me to scale shot twice for the kill. After the opponent attempts pivoting around to try and stop the bleeding, Melmetal proceeds to miss a DIB without sand up, giving me another kill. Then Spectrier comes in a misses a Hex, forcing the opponent to sack another mon.

Was this battle bad luck? Sure. But if we are vying for competitive integrity, I think it would be worth it to at least consider looking into this combination.

 

[Liquidocelot]

I know this topic has been touched on by others, but I feel like I need to bring it up again.



Sand Veil/BrightPowder Garchomp is extremely strong, despite how little use it sees. To give some context, with sand up, all 100% accurate moves are 67% accurate. Attempting any move with less than 100% accuracy is a flimsy strategy at best. I know the council does not complex ban, and I have advocated in favor of that sentiment multiple times in this thread, but I seriously think this set should be looked at as something uncompetitive.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1242631115-hw1hlnvbo26ttm5ldgvqi0td1116a62pw

(skip to turn 20)

This replay here shows how brutal this set can be. Despite me missing a Scale Shot on a full phys def Mandibuzz, the opponent proceeds to get RNG'd and miss two straight foul plays, allowing me to scale shot twice for the kill. After the opponent attempts pivoting around to try and stop the bleeding, Melmetal proceeds to miss a DIB without sand up, giving me another kill. Then Spectrier comes in a misses a Hex, forcing the opponent to sack another mon.

Was this battle bad luck? Sure. But if we are vying for competitive integrity, I think it would be worth it to at least consider looking into this combination.

Why not just do what gen 5 did? Ban Sand Veil/Snow Veil type abilities under evasion clause since evasion boosting stuff has been deemed uncompetitive. That way we miss out on a complex ban and it's not like people will miss out on those abilities.

 

[100 Hoes Kaido]

I know this topic has been touched on by others, but I feel like I need to bring it up again.



Sand Veil/BrightPowder Garchomp is extremely strong, despite how little use it sees. To give some context, with sand up, all 100% accurate moves are 67% accurate. Attempting any move with less than 100% accuracy is a flimsy strategy at best. I know the council does not complex ban, and I have advocated in favor of that sentiment multiple times in this thread, but I seriously think this set should be looked at as something uncompetitive.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1242631115-hw1hlnvbo26ttm5ldgvqi0td1116a62pw

(skip to turn 20)

This replay here shows how brutal this set can be. Despite me missing a Scale Shot on a full phys def Mandibuzz, the opponent proceeds to get RNG'd and miss two straight foul plays, allowing me to scale shot twice for the kill. After the opponent attempts pivoting around to try and stop the bleeding, Melmetal proceeds to miss a DIB without sand up, giving me another kill. Then Spectrier comes in a misses a Hex, forcing the opponent to sack another mon.

Was this battle bad luck? Sure. But if we are vying for competitive integrity, I think it would be worth it to at least consider looking into this combination.

Lmao, the more things change, the more they stay the same, huh? This is pre-platinum DP all over again, did you also have Toxic Spikes on Toxapex?
Brightpowder, as appealing as it sounds, isn't better than Leftovers as an item, without it, your 'Chomp will die quickly and have less chances to fish for misses with Substitute, if you really want to try this, definitely not PoS set Leftovers is the better choice.
But if you really want to suspect it, I feel Garchomp has been fucked by the power creep generations 5 to now gradually brought, it's stupid, don't take me wrong, but there are MANY things worse that should be dealt with first.

 

[clean]

Lmao, the more things change, the more they stay the same, huh? This is pre-platinum DP all over again, did you also have Toxic Spikes on Toxapex?
Brightpowder, as appealing as it sounds, isn't better than Leftovers as an item, without it, your 'Chomp will die quickly and have less chances to fish for misses with Substitute, if you really want to try this, definitely not PoS set Leftovers is the better choice.
But if you really want to suspect it, I feel Garchomp has been fucked by the power creep generations 5 to now gradually brought, it's stupid, don't take me wrong, but there are MANY things worse that should be dealt with first.

To answer your question, no, I don't have t-spikes.


Wasn't around here for gen 5, so not aware of the ban or what happened preceding it. Certainly not suggesting for an immediate suspect, I agree that there is plenty of other unhealthy shit that needs to be addressed first. I just think it is something that should be looked at for the future, just as we have an evasion clause.

 

[Kyo]

I know this topic has been touched on by others, but I feel like I need to bring it up again.



Sand Veil/BrightPowder Garchomp is extremely strong, despite how little use it sees. To give some context, with sand up, all 100% accurate moves are 67% accurate. Attempting any move with less than 100% accuracy is a flimsy strategy at best. I know the council does not complex ban, and I have advocated in favor of that sentiment multiple times in this thread, but I seriously think this set should be looked at as something uncompetitive.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1242631115-hw1hlnvbo26ttm5ldgvqi0td1116a62pw

(skip to turn 20)

This replay here shows how brutal this set can be. Despite me missing a Scale Shot on a full phys def Mandibuzz, the opponent proceeds to get RNG'd and miss two straight foul plays, allowing me to scale shot twice for the kill. After the opponent attempts pivoting around to try and stop the bleeding, Melmetal proceeds to miss a DIB without sand up, giving me another kill. Then Spectrier comes in a misses a Hex, forcing the opponent to sack another mon.

Was this battle bad luck? Sure. But if we are vying for competitive integrity, I think it would be worth it to at least consider looking into this combination.

Sand veil barely came into play here. Really this replay just shows off that you were able to dodge two moves off of the bright powder boost alone (since sand was gone at that point) which you could do with any bright powder mon given good enough rng. It’s like running focus band and getting the 10% rng every time you get hit so your mon can never be knocked out. Hardly banworthy

 

[Gennie]

Fumes, Sand Veil + Bright Power Garchomp is something I've actually looked into. I haven't used it nearly enough as I've been looking into more niche OU sets, and more recently, NU sets. Anyways, the combination of these two items leaves 100% accuracy moves down to a whopping 67.5%. It's pretty impressive assuming its left undisturbed. However, this set-up is just too easy to be ruined to be considered as competitive instead of a more direct offense. I mean, Hone Claws pokemon, while not as apparent, still do remain in the tier. However, as I was told about one of my sets, you still have to consider the niche. Although, this set can more directly be ruined by weather changers. Drizzle Pelipper is quite often run, and Defog users can lower your evasion. You also have to consider Knock Off users that will get rid of your Bright Powder, Skill Swap and Entrainment users that may erase your Sand Veil, and that your Sandstorm is still temporary. Since there are too many ways to ruin this set, I don't see it to be as viable as a straightforward offensive Garchomp, although that may just be my opinion.

 

[clean]

Sand veil barely came into play here. Really this replay just shows off that you were able to dodge two moves off of the bright powder boost alone (since sand was gone at that point) which you could do with any bright powder mon given good enough rng. It’s like running focus band and getting the 10% rng every time you get hit so your mon can never be knocked out. Hardly banworthy

It did come into play though. Sand Veil was the main reason I was able to muscle past the Mandibuzz, which would have easily killed me if not for missing twice. Without those misses, the opponent isn't forced to sack like 3 mons to try and lower my attack enough to revenge me.

I just think having 100% accurate moves go immediately to 67% in sandstorm is inherently uncompetitive.

 

[Kyo]

It did come into play though. Sand Veil was the main reason I was able to muscle past the Mandibuzz, which would have easily killed me if not for missing twice. Without those misses, the opponent isn't forced to sack like 3 mons to try and lower my attack enough to revenge me.

I just think having 100% accurate moves go immediately to 67% in sandstorm is inherently uncompetitive.

Life orb garchomp could have KO'd mandibuzz at +2 with stone edge anyway. Banking completely on rng to dodge attacks and create setup opportunities is not a good strategy whatsoever. If you really want to rng your opponents that badly then run a life orb garchomp with sand veil. Running a wack item like bright powder is a complete waste when Garchomp relies on life orb to secure KO's at +2 vs Clefable, Mandibuzz, Rillaboom, Zapdos and a bunch of other mons. It's just watering down the standard Garchomp set for the hell of it

 

[Piplz]

I keep seeing the 67% number come up for sand veil and brightpowder, what am I missing?

Isn't it 1*0.8*0.9 = 72% to hit for 100% accurate moves? How do people even reach the 0.67 number?

Either way, personally, I don't see this set as particularly noteworthy. Annoying and dumb for sure, but nothing particularly different from jirachi flinching you 5868 times in a row, hurricane confusion, crits happening at the most opportune times or whatever other bullshit happens sometimes. It's just Pokemon being Pokemon, and unless it becomes really disgusting (ie: Moody) I don't really see any reason to be particularly appaled by that specific kind of RNG rather than all the other ones.

 

[KamenOH]

the fact a good what feels like 150 mons are viable are way more problematic

I know this is somewhat out of context, but may you elaborate further? personally i find it better when I dont know what to bring because so many options are open, and not 30-40 role compressed monoliths.

 

[clean]

I keep seeing the 67% number come up for sand veil and brightpowder, what am I missing?

Isn't it 1*0.8*0.9 = 72% to hit for 100% accurate moves? How do people even reach the 0.67 number?

Either way, personally, I don't see this set as particularly noteworthy. Annoying and dumb for sure, but nothing particularly different from jirachi flinching you 5868 times in a row, hurricane confusion, crits happening at the most opportune times or whatever other bullshit happens sometimes. It's just Pokemon being Pokemon, and unless it becomes really disgusting (ie: Moody) I don't really see any reason to be particularly appaled by that specific kind of RNG rather than all the other ones.

I believe the calculation is 1*0.75*0.9 = 67.5%

 

[OvertoneSeries]

It did come into play though. Sand Veil was the main reason I was able to muscle past the Mandibuzz, which would have easily killed me if not for missing twice. Without those misses, the opponent isn't forced to sack like 3 mons to try and lower my attack enough to revenge me.

It wasn't just the miss; you also needed the luck of getting enough scale shot hits on said Mandibuzz to 2HKO it (a total of 7 hits, about 44% unless my math is off), and also to hit both necessary scale shots. Taking that neutral situation in isolation (i.e. non-subbed Garchomp in foul play range vs full HP mandibuzz), that's ~44% to 2HKO, * 81% to hit both scale shots * 28% for a foul play miss = ~10% - an insanely lucky situation to be sure. Pokemon is pokemon, and I really don't believe the odds were stacked unfairly in your favour here by you using this set; while getting lucky as a setup pokemon as scary as Garchomp is a big deal, there's still a solid number of viable pokemon that wall this set with even less chance of failure than physdef Mandibuzz's incredibly small chance (steelbirds, bulu, fairies in grassy terrain).
Also, sand veil confers a 20% accuracy penalty, not 25%.
Edit: made a mistake, maths even worse than i thought lol
Edit again: im bad at math