Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[FrozenVoltz]

Spooky Horse is no more


Good Riddance

 

[gye5]

So, now onto the next question: how is this going to affect other Pokemon?


Hydreigon will almost certainly stop running specially defensive variants now that it's no longer needed to check Spectrier. It's just a worse Latias for the most part as a phat Dragon-type Defogger, though in terms of basic utility range the two aren't actually that different. Something I hated about using Hydreigon as my Ghost-type resist in the Spect metagame was that it just opened up a horrible weakness to Dragapult, so having a bit more breathing room to run alternate Ghost-type responses on offence will probably prove extremely valuable.

The biggest advantage Latias has as a bulky Dragon-type defogger is the higher base Speed, notably letting her force out offensive SR Garchomp, and noticeably better natural bulk (92/90/90 --> 80/90/130), but beyond her range of coverage is more diverse than Hydreigon, notably having access to BoltBeam, STAB Psychic/Psyshock, and utility attacks like Mystical Fire (as well as the far less noteworthy Mist Ball). Utility-wise, Hydreigon's range wasn't that bad, having access to good moves like Thunder Wave, Tailwind, U-turn, and Taunt, but it suffered from being kinda forced into running both Dark Pulse and Earth Power to do its job properly. Latias doesn't really suffer from that issue due to her better-specialised stat spread (making a lack of direct attacks much less of a problem), and her utility options are better suited to a general utility role than Hydreigon's, notably having access to Trick, Future Sight, and the extremely powerful Healing Wish over Hydreigon while sharing access to Thunder Wave and Tailwind for indirect speed control.

Offensively, Hydreigon faces heavy competition from Latios and Gengar, the former of which is just a more potent special-attacking Dragon-type between its access to Trick, better STAB combo, and higher Speed/SpA stats and the latter of which is a faster Nasty Plot breaker that doesn't need to play games around Fairy-types and Blissey. Hydreigon does have a few things going for it over Latios, namely access to Taunt, higher attack+Superpower, and more firepower on certain key coverage types (Mystical Fire --> Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Aura Sphere-->Focus Blast, 90 Atk EQ-->105 Atk EQ+Earth Power, etc.), and Nasty Plot>Calm Mind, but I would be very surprised if that's enough to salvage it when the metagame around it necessitates such awkward coverage for Hydreigon (it's one of the few 'mons in this meta that I think has REAL 4MSS—not the fake 4MSS that everyone seems to always use the term for, I mean it literally needs 7 moves if it wants to do its job properly). All in all, Hydreigon looks like it is going to struggle to carve a niche in this metagame, especially given that it can't rely on Dugtrio to trap blobs like it did towards the end of gen 6.


Gonna be a bit more brief on these two 'cuz there's a lot less to unpack. In the Spectrier metagame, they were kinda pigoenholed into running suboptimal sets to not just lose to certain Substitute Spectrier sets. Now Mandibuzz is free to run a single Dark-type STAB/forgo Whirlwind in favour of something actually useful and can also afford to run a more useful EV spread. Blissey is less drastically changed than Mandibuzz, but no longer needing to run Shadow Ball relieves a lot of strain on its range of utility—Thunder Wave, Healing Wish, Stealth Rock, Toxic, Aromatherapy, etc. can now all be run alongside the combination of Seismic Toss and Teleport without needing to worry about Taunt Spectrier steamrolling you. All in all, beneficial changes. Whether Mandibuzz will get more or less popular is another matter, but I can't imagine Blissey going away anytime soon.


I mentioned these when talking about Hydreigon, but they also directly benefit from the absence of Spectrier, so I'm gonna bring them up again. Latios no longer being forced out by a giant horse-shaped win button is a big improvement over what it was before. With that said, it still struggles with Magearna and Cinderace, so until those two get banned I can't imagine it being too insane. Sinking momentum versus broken Pokemon is still pretty much a death sentence for a Pokemon, even if they would otherwise probably border on being broken (just look at poor old Keldeo). Gengar is in much the same boat as Latios, albeit with a better Magearna matchup, so I won't repeat myself too much. Both of these Pokemon also dispise Dragapult, who is looking primed to retake the number-one spot in this format now that its main hyperspeed Ghost-type competition is gone. (More on that below.)


Dragapult is a menace. I think there are probably legitimate arguments to say that it is a broken Pokemon (though not banworthy), given its insane Speed stat, aptitude at spreading status, how tricky it is to switch on in the late-game stages, and its near-universal utility for teams. But unlike a lot of the other things that can be described as "broken," what Dragapult brings to the format is ultimately very healthy. It's a lot like (more-so past-gen) Landorus-T in that regard: very easy to plug onto teams, arguably "broken" but in a healthy capacity. Of course, Dragapult only gets better with Spectrier gone. Sure, it loses one of its niches as the Spect Killer, but in exchange, +Atk/+SpA natures are back on the table and you no longer need to justify bringing it over Spectrier. I genuinely think Dragapult may be the best Pokémon in the format right now, and I'm excited to see how its sets change with Spect gone (expecting a mix of IoA and late-stage DLC0).


Tyranitar will probably still run specially defensive variants, but they will no longer be forced to carry Rest to not just crumble to Spect, and CB sets are now back on the table to act as a breaker on sandstorm teams once again. I think it is overall probably in a worse place than in the Spect meta, as its role will become less valuable, but it still has a lot of good things going for it, such as checking Heatran and Dragapult.


I know, this is a weird 'mon to bring up given it's not incredible, but it's probably better now that it's not free real estate for Spectrier, so I thought I'd mention it anyway. Mew is very versatile, and especially defensively it has a lot of things going for it: access to Spikes and Stealth Rock make it a versatile hazard layer; access to Defog makes it a decent hazard clearer. access to Teleport, Will-O-Wisp, Transform, Knock Off, and reliable recovery makes it an even more interesting utility choice; and perfect offensive coverage means it can pick and choose exactly which hazard setters/clearers it has a good/bad matchup versus according to the needs of its team. I think Mew's pretty unexplored, so I hope people will give it a whirl now that teambuilding has been freed up.

There is so much else I could probably talk about, but I've already wasted enough time on this thread and CBA to think about it more, so I'll stop there. Interested to see what other changes people expect.

Bold of u to asume that dragapult will one of the mons in the meta when mag and ace still a round.
I don't like spe def ttar if spectrier isnt a round. Too passive and hippo is definitely as a defensive than ttar for Sand teams. But as u said Banded ttar is actually a good. With things like clef and mag expeting u to be a Fat mon, u can punish that asumption with heavy slam, eq/f punch respectivly.

 

[shadowpea]

HALLELUJAH

This is exceptionally good news for my boys Latios and Chandelure! I mean, they might not be the most viable things in the world with Pult and Gengar existing, but at least they have niches now that horse is gone. And besides, the horse is gone!

 

[pulsar512b]

So, now onto the next question: how is this going to affect other Pokemon?


Hydreigon will almost certainly stop running specially defensive variants now that it's no longer needed to check Spectrier. It's just a worse Latias for the most part as a phat Dragon-type Defogger, though in terms of basic utility range the two aren't actually that different. Something I hated about using Hydreigon as my Ghost-type resist in the Spect metagame was that it just opened up a horrible weakness to Dragapult, so having a bit more breathing room to run alternate Ghost-type responses on offence will probably prove extremely valuable.

The biggest advantage Latias has as a bulky Dragon-type defogger is the higher base Speed, notably letting her force out offensive SR Garchomp, and noticeably better natural bulk (92/90/90 --> 80/90/130), but beyond her range of coverage is more diverse than Hydreigon, notably having access to BoltBeam, STAB Psychic/Psyshock, and utility attacks like Mystical Fire (as well as the far less noteworthy Mist Ball). Utility-wise, Hydreigon's range wasn't that bad, having access to good moves like Thunder Wave, Tailwind, U-turn, and Taunt, but it suffered from being kinda forced into running both Dark Pulse and Earth Power to do its job properly. Latias doesn't really suffer from that issue due to her better-specialised stat spread (making a lack of direct attacks much less of a problem), and her utility options are better suited to a general utility role than Hydreigon's, notably having access to Trick, Future Sight, and the extremely powerful Healing Wish over Hydreigon while sharing access to Thunder Wave and Tailwind for indirect speed control.

Offensively, Hydreigon faces heavy competition from Latios and Gengar, the former of which is just a more potent special-attacking Dragon-type between its access to Trick, better STAB combo, and higher Speed/SpA stats and the latter of which is a faster Nasty Plot breaker that doesn't need to play games around Fairy-types and Blissey. Hydreigon does have a few things going for it over Latios, namely access to Taunt, higher attack+Superpower, and more firepower on certain key coverage types (Mystical Fire --> Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Aura Sphere-->Focus Blast, 90 Atk EQ-->105 Atk EQ+Earth Power, etc.), and Nasty Plot>Calm Mind, but I would be very surprised if that's enough to salvage it when the metagame around it necessitates such awkward coverage for Hydreigon (it's one of the few 'mons in this meta that I think has REAL 4MSS—not the fake 4MSS that everyone seems to always use the term for, I mean it literally needs 7 moves if it wants to do its job properly). All in all, Hydreigon looks like it is going to struggle to carve a niche in this metagame, especially given that it can't rely on Dugtrio to trap blobs like it did towards the end of gen 6.


Gonna be a bit more brief on these two 'cuz there's a lot less to unpack. In the Spectrier metagame, they were kinda pigoenholed into running suboptimal sets to not just lose to certain Substitute Spectrier sets. Now Mandibuzz is free to run a single Dark-type STAB/forgo Whirlwind in favour of something actually useful and can also afford to run a more useful EV spread. Blissey is less drastically changed than Mandibuzz, but no longer needing to run Shadow Ball relieves a lot of strain on its range of utility—Thunder Wave, Healing Wish, Stealth Rock, Toxic, Aromatherapy, etc. can now all be run alongside the combination of Seismic Toss and Teleport without needing to worry about Taunt Spectrier steamrolling you. All in all, beneficial changes. Whether Mandibuzz will get more or less popular is another matter, but I can't imagine Blissey going away anytime soon.


I mentioned these when talking about Hydreigon, but they also directly benefit from the absence of Spectrier, so I'm gonna bring them up again. Latios no longer being forced out by a giant horse-shaped win button is a big improvement over what it was before. With that said, it still struggles with Magearna and Cinderace, so until those two get banned I can't imagine it being too insane. Sinking momentum versus broken Pokemon is still pretty much a death sentence for a Pokemon, even if they would otherwise probably border on being broken (just look at poor old Keldeo). Gengar is in much the same boat as Latios, albeit with a better Magearna matchup, so I won't repeat myself too much. Both of these Pokemon also dispise Dragapult, who is looking primed to retake the number-one spot in this format now that its main hyperspeed Ghost-type competition is gone. (More on that below.)


Dragapult is a menace. I think there are probably legitimate arguments to say that it is a broken Pokemon (though not banworthy), given its insane Speed stat, aptitude at spreading status, how tricky it is to switch on in the late-game stages, and its near-universal utility for teams. But unlike a lot of the other things that can be described as "broken," what Dragapult brings to the format is ultimately very healthy. It's a lot like (more-so past-gen) Landorus-T in that regard: very easy to plug onto teams, arguably "broken" but in a healthy capacity. Of course, Dragapult only gets better with Spectrier gone. Sure, it loses one of its niches as the Spect Killer, but in exchange, +Atk/+SpA natures are back on the table and you no longer need to justify bringing it over Spectrier. I genuinely think Dragapult may be the best Pokémon in the format right now, and I'm excited to see how its sets change with Spect gone (expecting a mix of IoA and late-stage DLC0).


Tyranitar will probably still run specially defensive variants, but they will no longer be forced to carry Rest to not just crumble to Spect, and CB sets are now back on the table to act as a breaker on sandstorm teams once again. I think it is overall probably in a worse place than in the Spect meta, as its role will become less valuable, but it still has a lot of good things going for it, such as checking Heatran and Dragapult.


I know, this is a weird 'mon to bring up given it's not incredible, but it's probably better now that it's not free real estate for Spectrier, so I thought I'd mention it anyway. Mew is very versatile, and especially defensively it has a lot of things going for it: access to Spikes and Stealth Rock make it a versatile hazard layer; access to Defog makes it a decent hazard clearer. access to Teleport, Will-O-Wisp, Transform, Knock Off, and reliable recovery makes it an even more interesting utility choice; and perfect offensive coverage means it can pick and choose exactly which hazard setters/clearers it has a good/bad matchup versus according to the needs of its team. I think Mew's pretty unexplored, so I hope people will give it a whirl now that teambuilding has been freed up.

There is so much else I could probably talk about, but I've already wasted enough time on this thread and CBA to think about it more, so I'll stop there. Interested to see what other changes people expect.

I'd add Obstagoon as a mon that is hurt by this, and Blacephalon and Aegislash (especially the latter) are noticeably helped.

 

[pulsar512b]

Victini resist theres moves & can wisp cinderace on sucker punch.

fun fact, if cinderace sucker punches and the move fails, it stays the type it was previously (so, Fire). this interaction might not be as favorable

 

[Seucra Lockhart]

Prediction:Glowking will be the best special wall in the tier now that Spectrier is gone.Spectrier was one of the few things that could destroy Glowking on the special side but now that it's gone Glowking will become much more reliable. Hell, I kinda wouldn't even be surprised if it became a top 10 mon but I think that's definitely stretching it.

 

[pulsar512b]

Prediction:Glowking will be the best special wall in the tier now that Spectrier is gone.Spectrier was one of the few things that could destroy Glowking on the special side but now that it's gone Glowking will become much more reliable. Hell, I kinda wouldn't even be surprised if it became a top 10 mon but I think that's definitely stretching it.

Blissey would be my pick for that, as it's just better at walling. Teleport is also nice.

Honestly, I feel like they play different roles, blissey just walls, maybe some toxic or teleport. G-Slowking takes a hit and dishes some damage out next

 

[658Greninja]

The horse has finally been banished to the shadow realm and I have alot to talk about in regards to the meta today and the near future.

Winners

The Spectrier ban has alot of winners as you can see. Slowbro now has one less mon to force it out making it’s FS + Port antics more doable. Pult is now free to run Specs and Modest without being outsped or outclassed by Spectrier. It may have lost it’s niche as a Spect rkiller, but as you can see from it’s success in SPL to it’s increasing usage on the ladder, it’s bound to only get better and scarier. Same goes for the other ghost types who no longer have to face competition with the horse no more. Latios has less competition as a breaker and Reuniclus is no longer scared off by the dreaded horse.

Losers

Mandibuzz lost alot of value as a defogger with the departure of Spectrier. Now it has more trouble standing out over the other defoggers. Torn has sky high speed, Regen, and has an easier time slotting in Knock and U-Turn. Corv has Pressure + Steel typing, and Zapdos has Static and more of an offensive presence. It still has a niche in checking Pult and Hydreigon but it won’t be as valuable anymore. I can see it dropping to UU soon. Goltres lost a bit of value on HO teams as a Spect check but it still hits everything except Mag and Blissey hard with NP. Ttar no longer has to run shitty rest anymore. Ttar can not only experiment with other options but Band can potentially be explored. Lash Out could be nice tech to hit Lando even harder without the need of using Ice Punch. Zarude is dead until Ace and Mag are gone lol.

Other Thoughts

I want to share a few sets that I think will gain traction in the new Spectrierless metagame.


Slowking-Galar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 112 HP / 132 SpA / 124 SpD / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Slack Off/Grass Knot

Glowking has alot of room for exploration. So why not take advantage of the fact Glowking is difficult to switch into safely and run NP. Due to the amount of opportunities it has to get in and do dmg, Nasty Plot lets it act as a strong stall/wallbreaker with great longevity and being able to setup on Clef, Pex, Blissey, Koko, Skarm, and more. Grass Knot can be ran to OHKO Hippo, Bro, Pert, Gastro, and Quag which opens up its teammates like Cinderace, or Koko.

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Knock Off/Aromatherapy/Calm Mind
- Thunder Wave/Stealth Rock/Wish

I believe this kind of spread will gain more traction in the metagame. With this spread for example, Clef is able to avoid 2HKOs from Pult’s Hex after being statused and avoid a 2HKO from Specs Kyurem’s Freeze Dry. It also reduces the chance Tran can trap and kill Clefable. Clef lost a bit of traction after the Shifu ban, but I believe it’ll make a bit of a comeback as a check to Pult, NP Hydreigon, Kyurem, and NP Torn while providing high amounts of utility.

Hydreigon @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 24 SpD / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Draco Meteor/Dark Pulse
- Earth Power
- Roost

Nasty Plot Hydrei already gained traction during SPL, but now it would have to deal with the burden of being a mediocre Spectrier switch in. There are few mons that can safely switch into NP Hydreigon like Clef, Fini, and Blissey. One of them has no recovery and the other can’t beat you if you have been burnt earlier so that leaves you with Clefable.

Tapu Bulu @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Horn Leech
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge

Bulu is a bit underrated imo. It doesn’t not have priority, Knock Off, higher speed tier, or U-Turn like Rilla does, but Bulu has a few things that lend it a niche in the metagame. To start, Bulu is slightly stronger than Rilla (130>125) meaning it’s Wood Hammers hit even harder than Rillaboom’s. Bulu is blessed with Stone Edge and slightly better fighting coverage letting it absolutely nuke the birds not named Corv or Skarm. Another advantage that makes Bulu worth using over Rilla sometimes is it’s better longevity due to Horn Leech and it’s slightly better bulk with 70/115/95 compared to Rilla’s 100/90/70 bulk. The added fairy type gives it a niche of checking Hydreigon and can switch into Chomp more safely. Obviously Rilla is more preferable but it’s not to say Bulu doesn’t have a niche.

With Spect gone, the meta is at least playable. Now all that’s left is to ban Ace and Mag. Then we could see a really fun generation open to experimentation.

 

[pulsar512b]

The horse has finally been banished to the shadow realm and I have alot to talk about in regards to the meta today and the near future.

Winners
View attachment 313809View attachment 313810View attachment 313812View attachment 313813View attachment 313814View attachment 313815View attachment 313816
The Spectrier ban has alot of winners as you can see. Slowbro now has one less mon to force it out making it’s FS + Port antics more doable. Pult is now free to run Specs and Modest without being outsped or outclassed by Spectrier. It may have lost it’s niche as a Spect rkiller, but as you can see from it’s success in SPL to it’s increasing usage on the ladder, it’s bound to only get better and scarier. Same goes for the other ghost types who no longer have to face competition with the horse no more. Latios has less competition as a breaker and Reuniclus is no longer scared off by the dreaded horse.

Losers
View attachment 313817View attachment 313820View attachment 313822View attachment 313823
Mandibuzz lost alot of value as a defogger with the departure of Spectrier. Now it has more trouble standing out over the other defoggers. Torn has sky high speed, Regen, and has an easier time slotting in Knock and U-Turn. Corv has Pressure + Steel typing, and Zapdos has Static and more of an offensive presence. It still has a niche in checking Pult and Hydreigon but it won’t be as valuable anymore. I can see it dropping to UU soon. Goltres lost a bit of value on HO teams as a Spect check but it still hits everything except Mag and Blissey hard with NP. Ttar no longer has to run shitty rest anymore. Ttar can not only experiment with other options but Band can potentially be explored. Lash Out could be nice tech to hit Lando even harder without the need of using Ice Punch. Zarude is dead until Ace and Mag are gone lol.

Other Thoughts

I want to share a few sets that I think will gain traction in the new Spectrierless metagame.


Slowking-Galar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 112 HP / 132 SpA / 124 SpD / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Slack Off/Grass Knot

Glowking has alot of room for exploration. So why not take advantage of the fact Glowking is difficult to switch into safely and run NP. Due to the amount of opportunities it has to get in and do dmg, Nasty Plot lets it act as a strong stall/wallbreaker with great longevity and being able to setup on Clef, Pex, Blissey, Koko, Skarm, and more. Grass Knot can be ran to OHKO Hippo, Bro, Pert, Gastro, and Quag which opens up its teammates like Cinderace, or Koko.

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Knock Off/Aromatherapy/Calm Mind
- Thunder Wave/Stealth Rock/Wish

I believe this kind of spread will gain more traction in the metagame. With this spread for example, Clef is able to avoid 2HKOs from Pult’s Hex after being statused and avoid a 2HKO from Specs Kyurem’s Freeze Dry. It also reduces the chance Tran can trap and kill Clefable. Clef lost a bit of traction after the Shifu ban, but I believe it’ll make a bit of a comeback as a check to Pult, NP Hydreigon, Kyurem, and NP Torn while providing high amounts of utility.

Hydreigon @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 24 SpD / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Draco Meteor/Dark Pulse
- Earth Power
- Roost

Nasty Plot Hydrei already gained traction during SPL, but now it would have to deal with the burden of being a mediocre Spectrier switch in. There are few mons that can safely switch into NP Hydreigon like Clef, Fini, and Blissey. One of them has no recovery and the other can’t beat you if you have been burnt earlier so that leaves you with Clefable.

Tapu Bulu @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Horn Leech
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge

Bulu is a bit underrated imo. It doesn’t not have priority, Knock Off, higher speed tier, or U-Turn like Rilla does, but Bulu has a few things that lend it a niche in the metagame. To start, Bulu is slightly stronger than Rilla (130>125) meaning it’s Wood Hammers hit even harder than Rillaboom’s. Bulu is blessed with Stone Edge and slightly better fighting coverage letting it absolutely nuke the birds not named Corv or Skarm. Another advantage that makes Bulu worth using over Rilla sometimes is it’s better longevity due to Horn Leech and it’s slightly better bulk with 70/115/95 compared to Rilla’s 100/90/70 bulk. The added fairy type gives it a niche of checking Hydreigon and can switch into Chomp more safely. Obviously Rilla is more preferable but it’s not to say Bulu doesn’t have a niche.

With Spect gone, the meta is at least playable. Now all that’s left is to ban Ace and Mag. Then we could see a really fun generation open to experimentation.

You list Ttar as a loser- I'd argue it simultaneously wins and loses. It wins because it can now run CB and stuff again, but also loses since its old role as a Spectrier check is gone. Ace and Mag are probably banworthy (I'm convinced on Magearna, less so with ace)

 

[Caionamax]

Slowking-Galar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 112 HP / 132 SpA / 124 SpD / 140 Spe

What are this EVs for?

 

[658Greninja]

What are this EVs for?

140 Speed evs are for outspeeding Hippowdon. 132 Spa evs lets me OHKO Pex and 2HKO Blissey with Psyshock after rocks and NP while letting me invest in HP and SpD. It also lets Glowking after a NP, OHKO 128SpD Tran with Focus Blast after rocks

 

[Fusien]

Now that Spectrier is finally gone, it’s going to be interesting seeing how well Dragapult does in the meta where there is overall less competition, and possibly less Mandibuzz used. Even before Spectrier ban, Pult was pretty good using specs, status hex, and sometimes even dragon dance (though less seen than the other two). If Spectrier’s ban results in lowered Mandibuzz use, then it will overall see less answers be used against it, and may become even better than before. The status hex set, for example, is somewhat difficult to answer, and sometimes can beat what answers the specs set as well. Additionally, Spectrier leaving means there will be less competition as an offensive ghost type. Blacephalon, for example, will likely be niche at best, due to its rocks weakness, mediocre bulk, and speed being lower than Kartana and some other key offensive threats that pult outspeeds. Specs Blacephlon, while hitting harder and having trick, still suffers the same problems already mentioned, not to mention how Specs Pult isn’t weak to rocks, is faster, and has a movepool that consists of U-turn and overall better moves. Sub Blacephalon also heavily dislikes z moves being removed, but can potentially have a niche I guess. Scarf Blacephalon could be somewhat ok, but then again, the rocks weakness, low bulk, and being slower than scarf kartana are annoying (though admittedly, regular Pult is outsped by scarf kart too). Gengar, on the other hand, is hard to switch into and has some sub sets, but overall still in general as a mon worse than pult due to the lower speed and bad bulk. Finally, while offensive Aegislash might see some more use, it is much slower than pult, and so in most scenarios, Pult would be the better pokemon in general overall. In conclusion, I’m interested to see how Dragapult will do post Spectrier ban, and how much better it will be than the other ghost types that also have benefited from Spectrier leaving.

 

[Lando-San]

[I'm very happy with the ban of the horse ^^ now we have to get rid of Magearna and Cinderace]

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Adamant Nature
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Stone Edge / Rock Blast
- Crunch / Lash Out
- Fire Punch
- Ice Punch​

I would like to talk about Tyranitar, since I'm a sand-boy and I like to toy with the archetype. Tyranitar probably will fall in usage because of one of its main niche was countering Spectrier in sand builds, which forced it to run suboptimal moves and spread. However, with the horse being gone, now Tyranitar can play with its great movepool and high attack stat as CB user as in previous generations, which can still be useful for sand teams as sand setter and wallbreaker, as many mons that check or counter Excadrill can be defeated or worn down by Tyranitar's CB attacks. Tyranitar can take out Zapdos, Moltres, put massive dents on Landorus-T and Corviknight, and it can even 2HKO Skarmory with Fire Punch. With this set, you're trading away defensive utility and Stealth Rock for a great wallbreaker.
As moves, It can run Lash Out to OHKO scarf Landorus-T on the switch, making Excadrill's life way more easier. I think the listed set is the best as it can break Ferrothorn, Corviknight and Skarmory with Fire Punch while Ice Punch defeats Landorus-T and Garchomp. Stone Edge is the prefered Rock-type move because of the insane power it packs, but Rock Blast can be used if PP stalling tactics are a concerning, at cost of power. As Dark-type move, Crunch is the choice because of its consistency, but Lash Out can be the tech against Landorus-T and occasional Defog, and it still has only 5 BP less than Crunch. Other moves like Superpower can be used to defeat Ferrothorn in rain and Heatran, but Heatran doesn't want to take any attack from this monster though; meanwhile Heavy Slam can be used to defeat Clefable, but it doesn't give anything else.

All-in-all, the Spectrier ban is a double-edge sword for this mon, as it lost its niche as counter, but it opens up for more offensive sets which can be threatening as not many OU mons takes its attacks well, with exception being Magearna that resists its STABs but can be nailed with Fire Punch, the rare Keldeo, and Hippowdon, which is a counter.

Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 498-588 (130 - 153.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 378-450 (98.6 - 117.4%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 206-244 (51.5 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 205-243 (51.2 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 158-186 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Landorus-Therian: 396-468 (124.1 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 324-384 (84.8 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Lash Out (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Landorus-Therian: 297-349 (93.1 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[1LDK]

Greeting everyone!

I hope eveyone is doing okay in whatever condition your in rn
I was in university and I have had a lot of personal problems, so I droped comp and now im completly out of touch with the meta
I want to comeback and play again like I used to. I think this question is too complex for the simple questions tread so im doing it here

How´s the meta rn? biggest treads? tips? bait picks? anything is valauble, thanks in advice :,3

(((and is this is not the place to ask, please let me know where i should be asking this)))

 

[YeetYolk07]

Greeting everyone!

I hope eveyone is doing okay in whatever condition your in rn
I was in university and I have had a lot of personal problems, so I droped comp and now im completly out of touch with the meta
I want to comeback and play again like I used to. I think this question is too complex for the simple questions tread so im doing it here

How´s the meta rn? biggest treads? tips? bait picks? anything is valauble, thanks in advice :,3

(((and is this is not the place to ask, please let me know where i should be asking this)))

I can give a sort of quick run-down

Threats:
Ghost types in the rise since spectrier has been banned. Most people just testing them out as of right now, no guarantee they will be very prominent later.
Examples: Blacephalon, Dragapult, Gengar, Aegislash
Psychic Bois: Alakazam but more important Latios.
General Threats: Cinderace, Rillaboom, Magearna, Nidoking, Garchomp, Kartana etc. the general strong stuff
Underrated things(this is just my opinion so don't necessarily take it to seriously)
Tapu lele, Melmetal, Kyurem
---------------------------------------------------------
Fat things:
Glowking and Slowbro are also benefitting off of spectrier ban.
Blissey doesn't have to run shadow ball anymore which is nice.
Sp. Def hydreigon is no more.
Tyranitar got saved and screwed at the same time. Now it can run more offensive sets, but will probably not be run on sand teams anymore, since it is not mandatory.

State of the meta is hard to say. Spectrier ban means things are still trying to find their new spots. General ideas have been made but it is no guarantee. Magearna and Cinderace may or may not be suspected(it's what most people want). So yeah that was just a quick lazy run down I guess. Most people can probably go more in depth if you need.

 

[musiquepkmn]

I don't see why everyone is saying Glowking got way better after the Spectrier ban. People are just replacing Spectrier with another Ghost attacker like Dragapult, so teams looking to stand in its way with Glowking are still gonna need some sort of secondary special wall (like Cryogonal) or ghost resist. Glowking can scout specs pult and hex pult with regenerator (specs sball does 43-51% and HDB Hex does 47-55%) but you gotta remember if you're scouting with a regenerator mon you gotta have something to regen out to.

 

[Obsidian297]

I don't see why everyone is saying Glowking got way better after the Spectrier ban. People are just replacing Spectrier with another Ghost attacker like Dragapult, so teams looking to stand in its way with Glowking are still gonna need some sort of secondary special wall (like Cryogonal) or ghost resist. Glowking can scout specs pult and hex pult with regenerator (specs sball does 43-51% and HDB Hex does 47-55%) but you gotta remember if you're scouting with a regenerator mon you gotta have something to regen out to.

Spectrier really hurt Glowking's role in a game, as it completely balled over it, 2HKO'ing at minimum.

Gengar and Dragapult are the other viable special ghosts, and both have a massive power drop from Spectrier, to the point where Glowking can attempt to switch into them. Moreover, both Gengar and Dragapult have different counters than Spectrier (other than the standard counters), so they aren't a clean replacement on teams, so it isn't even close to how you describe it

Glowking has definitely gotten better

 

[Empress Mobile]

I don't see why everyone is saying Glowking got way better after the Spectrier ban. People are just replacing Spectrier with another Ghost attacker like Dragapult, so teams looking to stand in its way with Glowking are still gonna need some sort of secondary special wall (like Cryogonal) or ghost resist. Glowking can scout specs pult and hex pult with regenerator (specs sball does 43-51% and HDB Hex does 47-55%) but you gotta remember if you're scouting with a regenerator mon you gotta have something to regen out to.

Well you don't see why everyone is saying that because they aren't, you just made that up. The improved status of Glowking has been described modestly since Spectrier ban, and this accurately reflects its marginally better match up. Glowking is free setup for Spectrier, whereas Gengar would be foolish to set up in front of it. As mentioned above, none of the specially based Ghost types remaining in the tier serve as automatic replacements for Spectrier and all have a significant drop in power and/or speed. Even Blacephalon with its comparable power level doesn't want to take a Scald with rocks up.

 

[Perish Song]

Just want to throw my 2 cents in this argument and talk about the impact of Spectrier ban on certain Pokemon.

First and foremost, I want to address people who say "Yay we are no longer forced to run Tyranitar as dark resist!", this is wrong. The fact that Spectrier being so absurdly strong is the reason why nearly every Ghost-type Pokemon was held back, and the ban of Spectrier will only cause other amazing Ghosts such as Blacephalon, Aegislash, Dragapult and even Gengar to rise in usage. In short, you will still need a Ghost resist which I think will cause an increase in usage for Mandibuzz as well as other Ghost resists, means Tyranitar will likely stay as a specially defensive Pokemon and weather setter for Sand archetypes. ( Note that these Pokemon all come with viable coverage options so using Normal-types as a defensive counterplay is no longer the case.)

As for Glowking, I havent really experimented with new Ghosts enough to say something educated about it. I just know that Spectrier was able to abuse Glowking and it is very likely scenario that Glowking got better due to its ban which is what people are suggesting, I personally think it is also possible that the Ghosts will innovate to get past Glowking, thus Glowking wont end up in a better position than it previously was. Aegislash can carry a Band/ Physical Swords Dance set, Dragapult can use Life Orb Dragon Dance, Gengar can be Nasty Plot which is enough to hit it once to cause a chip above the Regenerator regen and switch out on the turn the Future Sight was used. Overall, I think its too soon to evaluate how good Glowking will be.

 

[Ox the Fox]

I've been flip flopping on whether ace or mage is more broken but after watching SPL games, and playing more myself I believe magearna should be the next suspect test.

Specs magearna is the best set rn, and imo is clearly too much for the metagame. Fleur + focus is ridiculously hard to switch into, and anything that is able to switch in gets crippled by trick or is volt switched out on. It's also ridiculously bulky being able to tank hits from full from Landot and garchomp. The unpredictability of it pushes it over the edge even more, as it has other sets like calm mind and shift gear which aren't always obvious on team preview.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-540246 While in this game, the shift gear magearna doesn't sweep, being only 3% away from killing Heatran and clean winning the game, it showcases how scary an unexpected shift gear set can be late game. Shift gear wasn't super obvious in this game, as it could just have easily been a pain split or specs set.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-539860 This is another game that showcases a setup sweeper magearna team, on a team that doesn't typically run it. The set being so unexpected here allows Niko to setup twice with it, allowing it to break past haze pex, and forces bro fist to sack zapdos to get in pult, and then sack pult to get a para off, before finally being able to haze it with pex.

I also think cinderace is broken and should be tested, but with lando-t as common as it is, the struggle it has getting past toxapex/slowbro especially when they run rocky helmet, and recent trends like rocky helmet garchomp, it's currently easier to deal with than magearna.

 

[Red Raven]

Agreed. I'm even surprised that we got rid of Spectrier first before Magearna. The damned horse was a lot more manageable than this damned bunny bot. In fact, I think Magearna should just be banned instantly without the need for a suspect. This thing is like Zygarde's disciple, it can handpick what it kills and what it doesn't but unlike Zygarde, it doesn't actually have a real counter as it can fuck Blissey real hard by tricking a choice item on it. The shift gear weakness policy sets is probably the most cancerous as it is the set that picks what it beats and what it doesn't. Heatran handles most quite well, except it can't kill Magearna in one shot and I'm not even sure if offensive variants can do that. It ends up activating the policy and guess what, now Magearna just brute forces its way thru Heatran with the a million boost to stored power. It steels is a problem, just put in aura sphere. That'll kill them. Hate ground types? Ice beam them to death. That's not even mentioning how the most common priority moves in ou atm are all resisted by this piece of blueprints gone wrong

I say we don't bother with a suspect and suffer under a malfunctioned robot's oppressive for two weeks

 

[Finchinator]

I'm all for looking into Magearna as well as Cinderace. We're likely going to put out a community survey like we did multiple times earlier this generation to get the general consensus on these two and more before deciding how and when to proceed on either, so stay tuned for that.

Also, people using this thread to complain about the sequence of suspects should stop for obvious reasons. There are plenty of outlets to inquire about the process that do not involve doing so after the fact without any justification while not addressing the people who made the decision at all for the sake of being edgy.

 

[musiquepkmn]

In this scenario, would a quick ban be out of the question, given the community survey results are in agreement? I've heard a lot of people calling for a QB, but that may just be because many are frustrated about the suspect order.

 

[Finchinator]

In this scenario, would a quick ban be out of the question, given the community survey results are in agreement? I've heard a lot of people calling for a QB, but that may just be because many are frustrated about the suspect order.

I am speaking on behalf of myself, not the entire council. I am open to any solution that we see fit upon getting community input. It would be unfair to rule anything out before consulting the active playerbase, in my opinion.

It absolutely would take an overwhelming amount of support to have a quickban in the middle of a seemingly playable metagame state, but there are absolutely Pokemon worth acting on and the level of support can determine the actions taken, the order of the actions, and so on. I personally prefer suspects, but perhaps briefer suspects so we can act faster and help reach a balance.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I always felt Zygarde wasn't really broken and it was actually Thousand Arrows that should have been banned. There's a reason why every single Zydarde form was suspected at one point.

While I don't feel Pyro Ball is banworthy at all, it's definitely what pushes Cinderace over the edge. Being a non contact move makes it so it isn't susceptible to passive damage from Rough Skin/Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet. If he was forced to run Flare Blitz instead, he'd be taking 17-20% of recoil on top of Helmet chip against Defensive Lando just to deal the same amout of damage