Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[MrHands]

I too strongly dislike Z-moves (in singles) for the reason you state, and still believe that Gen 7 OU (AND GEN 8) would have been much better if Z-moves were banned and then the tier was balanced accordingly. And I like the removal of Hidden Power for the reasons you talked about, but your post has definitely made me appreciate what the move brought to the table. Kudos.

Also, anyone have some interesting, less-used defensive mons they've found to have a niche in this metagame? Wanna try to build around some.

I feel like banning Z moves would be the correct competitive decision, but also so would banning critical hits, secondary effects (Flamethrower burn etc), and a bunch of other uncompetitive garbage. In general a line has to be drawn somewhere. We're playing Gamefreak's Pokemon with some additional fan rules, not Smogon's own turn based pvp slave rancher. Where that line is can often be gray. We banned Dynamax because it's a terrible competitive mechanic that made singles awful to play. Not just awful, borderline unplayable. But Z moves? Kind of lame to lose to one when you don't expect it but the same could be said of Hidden Power, crits, full para, etc. Imo Z moves made gen 7 my favorite comp gen.

Perhaps not on a "the best player wins" metric, but more on the "I can run Z Hyper Beam on Noctowl and OHKO a Heatran with it" levels of wacky over the top anything is viable bullshit that was gen 7. No one here plays Pokemon because it's a good competitive game because lol no it isn't. We all play because of a combination of nostalgia, competitiveness, and our own fondness for the franchise. Smogon does what it can to make things more fair but we still have to remember that we're playing Pokemon, and getting excessive with bans makes things a bit silly.

252+ SpA Tinted Lens Noctowl Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 258-304 (79.8 - 94.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Bro don't take this from me.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

In a metagame where every team is running at least one Defogger and some even running an additional rapid spinner as well as so many teams running Heavy Duty Boots, Magic Guard and Regenerator, do you guys see some higher level players running Hazardless teams in the near future?

 

[TheTraininator]

In a metagame where every team is running at least one Defogger and some even running an additional rapid spinner as well as so many teams running Heavy Duty Boots, Magic Guard and Regenerator, do you guys see some higher level players running Hazardless teams in the near future?

Not particularly. People have been asking this question since the beginning of the generation when HDB first hit the scene, but even if there’s more counterplay to hazards now than there was several generations ago, the amount of reward you gain from a single hazard over the course of a long-term game is often too much to pass up. Additionally, not every Pokémon is gonna want to run HDB, and if you have any amount of vulnerability to hazards whatsoever, then you will always potentially find yourself in a situation where switching into a 3HKO could suddenly become a 2HKO, or a 2HKO against an emergency offensive check switch-in could suddenly OHKO. This is all not to mention the existence of Knock-Off making HDB Pokémon have to think carefully about when and where to switch in. Basically, no matter how you slice it, the reward from hazard pressure is often too high to forgo it entirely, it just often requires more thoughtful usage now and is slightly more matchup dependent.

 

[Empress Mobile]

In a metagame where every team is running at least one Defogger and some even running an additional rapid spinner as well as so many teams running Heavy Duty Boots, Magic Guard and Regenerator, do you guys see some higher level players running Hazardless teams in the near future?

I think it's a great question and I'm sure there has been some exploration of this idea. I do think that the prevalence of Knock Off can definitely go a long way in reestablishing the effectiveness of hazards in the metagame. I do think that a successful team without hazards, something that really hasn't been viable since Gen 3, would really need to take advantage of the team slots and/or moveslots opened up by dropping hazards. The thing is that it's so easy to fit SR on a moveset. Early Gen Spikers were incredibly limited and often forced a setter on your team that could be easily exploited. With the number of potential setters and the upsides of setting hazards I do think that the number of top tier teams without any hazards at all will be fairly small percentage wise, though I do think it's likely there will be many top tier matches where setting hazards won't be paramount to either team's strategy.

 

[Jokler]

I'm fine with advocating for more liberal quickbans if this is reflected in the community responses to the upcoming tiering survey. Again: I firmly believe that the players who care about the tier should have a say in how the tiering process proceeds.

However, that is a two way street. My personal belief that taking the power away from the community is something that should only be done during more extreme cases is also justified by the above line of logic; this is why I am not fond of a lot of quickbans unless there is some community-wide consensus to back it (see: the Cinderace quickban in DLC1 after the first survey and the early DLC2 quickbans after the second survey). We have acted promptly and in the fashion deemed more desirable by the playerbase each time a survey has happened, so I do not see why there would be much fuss. Finaly, a lot of people claim suspects are formalities as a whole and that we should apply quickbans much more liberally, but during the last two generations, we have had suspects that resulted in no ban. Using the survey system we are allows us to get input to make the most informed decisions, which I feel is a huge step in the right direction.

Hope this clears things up -- I really just want the people who play and understand the tier to drive the progression of the tier.

I have just been skimming through this discussion and so forgive if I got some parts wrong but I will give my thoughts on this.

Firstly, I agree and appreciate your views on this that, yes suspects tests are better than quick bans just for that community participation. I remember that some people were indeed questioning the Lando I ban even if they were a few outliers. I feel most everyone can accept the results of a suspect test in good faith.

Secondly, I disagree that suspect tests are a waste of time. This is an indisputable fact that since the onset of the generation all suspect in OU have resulted in ban with overwhelming majorities. But we must not undervalue the importance of the suspect test discussions. There people are able to get there thoughts out for the final time against or for the mon and have a fruitful discussion. This again ties in to my first point of community participation and being able to accept majority vote. This hasn't happened yet but we can't write off the possibility of these discussions simply even effectively swaying the votes to change in less than obvious cases. I am not saying that this may ever happen but there is definitely a possibility.

Now, I will be the first to admit that Cind and Mag are more than likely going to be banned even if we hold suspect tests and I will also personally vote ban but that is whole point, being able to vote and contribute.

Lastly, that is definitely a valid concern for people that it takes way too long for these suspect test to wrap up. But instead of just completely removing the process, why not shorten it? Urshifu suspect test had started in the early 3rd week of December and went till end of 1st week of January. The Spectrier suspect started after 2nd week of Jan and went till 9th Feb. I don't think that the suspect needs to be 3 weeks long with such long gaps in between. For instance the next suspect could happen in 3-4 days after the previous one and the suspect could only be a week long. Obviously these are just random ideas and I don't know if they are feasible or not but if possible this seems like something that will make both sides happy with being able to vote but being relatively quick suspects.

This may seem contradictory but I do think that the survey at this point IS actually a mere formality. We don't need to take multiple votes, first to see whether a mon should be suspected or not and secondly the suspect itself. I definitely think the it does come in the scope of the council to hold suspect test om the basis of the popular community feedback from this thread particularly created to discuss the meta game. (This was considering that the survey is for suspect test. If they are for QBs, I already gave my thoughts on that).

 

[toaster04]

Also, anyone have some interesting, less-used defensive mons they've found to have a niche in this metagame? Wanna try to build around some.

late to the party but I haven't particularly discovered it, I remember there being a bit of hype in the OU room about Salazzle / omnipresence on stall teams though

the GOAT (Salazzle) @ Leftovers / Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Protect
- Flamethrower

OR 252 HP / 220 SpD / 36 Spe, tool around with more complex spreads is another option

corrosion is incredibly unique for a defensive mon allowing you to toxic a mon that is normally immune to it, the biggest if not only niche Salazzle has being so beneficial. You can spread toxic on Heatran and corv, etc. Eventually you can stall these out, encore can also be a more fun option to annoy setup sweepers. To be less vague having a partner with Salazzle (ground immunes, water resists and mons that appreciate toxic, wish support). the entire team will appreciate the status and thus will make progress allowing you to either make breathing room for a setup sweeper on stall or toxic the entire team in succession, eventually producing massive chip with entry hazards and statusing what you normally couldn't with corrosion.

 

[658Greninja]

Also, anyone have some interesting, less-used defensive mons they've found to have a niche in this metagame? Wanna try to build around some.

A little late to the party as well, but I do have this.

Scizor @ Leftovers/Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 192 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Roost
- U-turn/Swords Dance

Scizor has established a bit of a niche in the metagame as a check/counter to Rilla, Kyurem, Tapu Lele, Reuni, and Specs Mag. As well as a soft-check to non-Dark Pulse Hydrei, especially since Flamethrower isn’t very common rn. It has some utility in Knock Off, Bullet Punch to pick off weakened mons, and U-Turn for obvious reasons. Swords Dance can be used over U-Turn as a bulky wincon when paired with Pex lures like Electro Ball Ace, but its too support reliant. It is an option tho. Scizor is still difficult to splash on teams due to its competition having more utility (Tran has rocks, Magma Storm trapping. Defensive Mag has Heal Bell and Twave. Ferro has Spikes + Iron Barbs. Corv has Defog + Pressure). However none of these can handle all of the stuff Scizor checks at once which makes Scizor worth being on Balance builds sometimes when we consider its 80% winrate with 5 uses all throughout SPL as of now.

 

[Caionamax]

EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 192 SpD

What are this EVs for?

 

[658Greninja]

What are this EVs for?

192 SpD evs for avoiding a 2HKO from non-Specs Koko Tbolt after rocks. The rest in physD for Hippo, Rilla, and Melm

 

[Cuddly]

In a metagame where every team is running at least one Defogger and some even running an additional rapid spinner as well as so many teams running Heavy Duty Boots, Magic Guard and Regenerator, do you guys see some higher level players running Hazardless teams in the near future?

I mean you could. Such a team would be extremely Hyper Offensive. Or if you just mean no Hazard setting on your team, it would be Pure Stall.

 

[Cuddly]

I feel like banning Z moves would be the correct competitive decision, but also so would banning critical hits, secondary effects (Flamethrower burn etc), and a bunch of other uncompetitive garbage. In general a line has to be drawn somewhere. We're playing Gamefreak's Pokemon with some additional fan rules, not Smogon's own turn based pvp slave rancher. Where that line is can often be gray. We banned Dynamax because it's a terrible competitive mechanic that made singles awful to play. Not just awful, borderline unplayable. But Z moves? Kind of lame to lose to one when you don't expect it but the same could be said of Hidden Power, crits, full para, etc. Imo Z moves made gen 7 my favorite comp gen.

Perhaps not on a "the best player wins" metric, but more on the "I can run Z Hyper Beam on Noctowl and OHKO a Heatran with it" levels of wacky over the top anything is viable bullshit that was gen 7. No one here plays Pokemon because it's a good competitive game because lol no it isn't. We all play because of a combination of nostalgia, competitiveness, and our own fondness for the franchise. Smogon does what it can to make things more fair but we still have to remember that we're playing Pokemon, and getting excessive with bans makes things a bit silly.

252+ SpA Tinted Lens Noctowl Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 258-304 (79.8 - 94.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Bro don't take this from me.

The reason why banning critical hits and other RNG mechanic has not happen yet is because it would require users on cart to modify their games (which is Japan is or will be illegal. idk the specifics of said laws or future laws), and also Smogon would be tasked with rebalancing the game (since having Fire Blast be 100% accurate with no downside would be OP), which tons of people would disagree on.

However, I think Stun Spore, Thunder Wave, Nuzzle, Glare, basically any move that has a near perfect or perfect chance of paralysis should be suspect at the very minimum (in the future), since such a status is effectively a permanent accuracy drop to Pokemon who are not immune to it. Same with Sand veil, Snow Cloak, and Bright Powder (which is literally just evasion).
I can understand why Body Slam, Iron Head, Air Slash, ect. are not considered (Body Slam especially with there being no Return/Frustrate. Flinching moves being that they eventually run out of PP or the user is too slow).

On Z moves, however, I actually liked them. Losing your item for a 1 time nuke on a specific Pokemon that could be KO’d is a lot more balanced than Dynamax. But neither are allowed in this meta for different reasons anyways, so it hardly matters.

 

[Azure]

What do you guys think of stall in this meta?

I've heard the opinion that stall is bad in this meta very often, but I honestly don't agree. It honestly feels kind of oppressive in the builder to me. Sure it's a big matchup fish, but it seems to have a LOT of favorable matchups. Even FS + Breaker can't reliably beat stall, most of them seem to be favoring Mandibuzz again to come in on things like Cinderace and absorb the FS. "Stallbreaker" Magearna isnt getting through unaware CM clef reliably, and some are even electing to run ditto to reverse sweep. Heatran gets massively annoyed by earthquake Galarian Slowking, Quagsire, defensive Dnite and Hydreigon, and the low Magma Storm PP also really punishes losing 50/50s against stall. I feel like if you don't specifically prep for stall, it's a massive uphill battle.

And when using stall, sure you can win a massive amount of games at matchup alone, but as soon as you run into another bulky team, it just feels helpless. What is even the wincon? Hazards can't do all that much conditioning vs other bulky teams, thanks to boots, regen and magic guard. If you choose to run a breaker and take a more semi stall route, you're overall much more frail against the breakers that matter to such a bulky playstyle, and even then, that breaker might just not be enough to get mileage against other fat teams, depending on the matchup.

On one hand, I think it's incredibly strong at having so many matchup advantages against the typical bulky offense and hyper offense seen on ladder, but it just feels like complete dead weight against other bulky teams. That matchup seems to always end in a draw unless one massively chokes somehow, and even then it's hard to force any progress

 

[MrHands]

The reason why banning critical hits and other RNG mechanic has not happen yet is because it would require users on cart to modify their games

Uhh, what. Smogon OU as is in Showdown has been impossible to perfectly implement in almost any gen. Sleep and Freeze clause alone are impossible on cartridge. The timer is, as of gen 8, also impossible to recreate due to Gamefreak's insistence on mandatory 20 minutes. Dynamax is also impossible to disable on cartridge. We also pretend Showdown only displays info that the player has on the cart but that's generally not true as the average player can't count individual pixels to calculate exact HP percents. Endless battle clause is also impossible to implement on cartridge. Lastly some things that are technically possible, such as Wish Chansey or perfect Pokémon pre-gen 6 usually required hacking or RNG manipulation to do on the cart. Most Smogon clauses are hard coded into Showdown while on cartridge the best you can do is a gentleman's agreement. There's also glitches such as "acid rain" that weren't added to the simulators despite the fact that they can't be disabled in-game.

Tldr Smogon has long since accepted that it will bend what is possible for the good of the community and game. Smogon hasn't banned crits because it's fucking stupid, and if you want a turn based strategy game without crits there's probably 50 more competitively viable alternatives. However none of those Pokémon have Pikachu. So idk, we ban what we can but only as a last resort. We want a good metagame but it still has to actually be Pokémon.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Dynamax is also impossible to disable on cartridge.

It's very possible. You just don't click the big button.

 

[MrHands]

It's very possible. You just don't click the big button.

I can click that button and no amount of gentleman's agreement beforehand can prevent my finger from doing it. If you 6v6 me on the Switch with Smogon OU rules I'm gonna Dynamax my +1 Gyarados and there's nothing you can do about it.

While on Showdown cheating like that has been hard coded to not even be possible.

 

[OneSmogonCopyer]

I can click that button and no amount of gentleman's agreement beforehand can prevent my finger from doing it. If you 6v6 me on the Switch with Smogon OU rules I'm gonna Dynamax my +1 Gyarados and there's nothing you can do about it.

While on Showdown cheating like that has been hard coded to not even be possible.

Ok then. What's stops me from not freezing you in cartridge or not critting if I dont want to.

 

[FrozenVoltz]

What do you guys think of stall in this meta?

I've heard the opinion that stall is bad in this meta very often, but I honestly don't agree. It honestly feels kind of oppressive in the builder to me. Sure it's a big matchup fish, but it seems to have a LOT of favorable matchups. Even FS + Breaker can't reliably beat stall, most of them seem to be favoring Mandibuzz again to come in on things like Cinderace and absorb the FS. "Stallbreaker" Magearna isnt getting through unaware CM clef reliably, and some are even electing to run ditto to reverse sweep. Heatran gets massively annoyed by earthquake Galarian Slowking, Quagsire, defensive Dnite and Hydreigon, and the low Magma Storm PP also really punishes losing 50/50s against stall. I feel like if you don't specifically prep for stall, it's a massive uphill battle.

And when using stall, sure you can win a massive amount of games at matchup alone, but as soon as you run into another bulky team, it just feels helpless. What is even the wincon? Hazards can't do all that much conditioning vs other bulky teams, thanks to boots, regen and magic guard. If you choose to run a breaker and take a more semi stall route, you're overall much more frail against the breakers that matter to such a bulky playstyle, and even then, that breaker might just not be enough to get mileage against other fat teams, depending on the matchup.

On one hand, I think it's incredibly strong at having so many matchup advantages against the typical bulky offense and hyper offense seen on ladder, but it just feels like complete dead weight against other bulky teams. That matchup seems to always end in a draw unless one massively chokes somehow, and even then it's hard to force any progress

As far as i know Stored Power bypasses unaware,besides its not like Clefable can do anything back to magearna really and if you hit it with Flamethrower be careful since some magearnas run Weakness policy

 

[Azure]

As far as i know Stored Power bypasses unaware,besides its not like Clefable can do anything back to magearna really and if you hit it with Flamethrower be careful since some magearnas run Weakness policy

it does not bypass unaware. And a CM boosted unaware clefable can 1v1 magearna and beat it down with moonblast alone.

+6 252 SpA Magearna Stored Power (500 BP) vs. +6 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Clefable: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 0 SpA Unaware Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 173-204 (57.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[MrHands]

Ok then. What's stops me from not freezing you in cartridge or not critting if I dont want to.

You can't, which is why Smogon clauses are impossible to apply in cartridge. My point is Smogon clauses and rules have never been truly bound by what is possible on the actual game.

 

[OneSmogonCopyer]

You can't, which is why Smogon clauses are impossible to apply in cartridge. My point is Smogon clauses and rules have never been truly bound by what is possible on the actual game.

I mean yeah? Smogon is a gentleman's agreement of what IS possible ingame. Ingame you can just not use dynamax. Doesnt mean it's not possible. Unlike Crits or Freeze, dynamax is not an RNG mechanic and can be controlled. If you Dynamax, you broke the gentleman's agreement and is not playing OU rules anymore.

 

[FrozenVoltz]

it does not bypass unaware. And a CM boosted unaware clefable can 1v1 magearna and beat it down with moonblast alone.

+6 252 SpA Magearna Stored Power (500 BP) vs. +6 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Clefable: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 0 SpA Unaware Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 173-204 (57.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In a 1v1 it can defeat Magearna but it can't check it consistenly.Especially in the long run if you rely on Clefable as your magearna check

252 SpA Life Orb Magearna Stored Power (140 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[MrHands]

I mean yeah? Smogon is a gentleman's agreement of what IS possible ingame. Ingame you can just not use dynamax. Doesnt mean it's not possible. Unlike Crits or Freeze, dynamax is not an RNG mechanic and can be controlled. If you Dynamax, you broke the gentleman's agreement and is not playing OU rules anymore.

You're missing my point, and after this I'm going to stop replying because I have nothing else to add and I don't want to get drawn into a back and forth that has nothing to do with the OU discussion. (My fault for bringing it up in the first place)

The guy I originally replied to said certain things can or can not be banned / restricted based off what was possible on cartridge. I replied to him saying that this was almost never the case and Smogon's OU meta has basically never been truly possible to implement on cartridge. What Smogon does or does not ban is more restricted by what the people want, not explicitly how Gamefreak builds their game. Smogon's goal is to balance Pokémon in a way that is as close to the cartridge as possible, but not strictly so.

 

[Finchinator]

This is derailing towards a couple of topics that do not really pertain to the actual metagame being played itself. Let's shift back on topic and if people have questions about technicalities or tiering, they can present them in the SQSA or in my PMs. Thanks!

 

[MidnightReaper]

I'd really like to talk about Aegislash's potential viability in the meta.
I think people are egregiously underestimating how great having a stopgap like this Pokemon is, and that the constant threat of instant nukes such as Spectrier has caused somewhat of a disconnect in modern play.

Has anyone used Aegislash as of late, and if you have, what sets have you been using?

 

[Dreadfury]

I'd really like to talk about Aegislash's potential viability in the meta.
I think people are egregiously underestimating how great having a stopgap like this Pokemon is, and that the constant threat of instant nukes such as Spectrier has caused somewhat of a disconnect in modern play.

Has anyone used Aegislash as of late, and if you have, what sets have you been using?

I've actually seen Specs with Steel Beam occasionally and it's caught me by surprise each time since I was used to some sort of defensive or physical variant. Steel Beam OHKOs so much of the tier after some small chip.

My poor Mandibuzz got absolutely clowned on.

But honestly, I can see mixed/physical being the de-facto Aegislash sets.