Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

My 2 cents:

Personally, I don't mind testing Zamazenta-C or even Darm-Galar for like 2 quick weeks, but only after we have looked at everything problematic in the tier first.

:Magearna: 5 I used to think this is not as broken as Cinderace, but recently Specs Magearna has been really getting on me nerves, especially coupled with the fact that literally everyone and their mom is spamming Magearna behind screens on every other team. Draining Kiss makes the Shift Gear set just so insanely broken and Specs is even more broken so yeah. I've even started to use max SpD Nidoqueen on some of my teams because of how annoying the specs set is.

:Cinderace: 5 I mean yeah it's not as broken as Magearna but it's broken enough. The pivoting is insane and if you don't have Toxapex or Hippowdon you never really have an actual counter. Everything else can be poisoned by Gunk Shot or just slowly chipped with STAB U-turn + Rocks + Future Sight. Court Change, Bulk Up + Zen Headbutt, and Electro Ball are just overkill utility options. This is embarassing to admit but I was laddering a new account the other day and I lost to Flame Charge + Electro Ball + Acrobatics Cinderace. I don't know what madman came up with this gimmick but it gets past Slowbro and Scarf Lando-T which are the most common glues for Ace rn.

:Heatran: 4 I really don't care what anyone says. I honestly from the bottom of my heart truly believe that Heatran is one of most broken mons in their tier right now. It always has been, it's just always overshadowed by other things, and people just choose to ignore it anyways because Heatran's insane stallbreaking abilities keeps stall in check. You don't even need to run Power Herb Solar Beam to kill defensive water types because how ridiculous this thing is. The reason I liked SpD Hydreigon more than Mandibuzz in Spectrier meta is because it also countered Heatran, but I still lost some games to Heatran due to Toxic + Magma Storm + Rocks wearing it down throughout the match. It's so insane how a well played Heatran can singe-handedly win games and break cores, and it's honestly been doing that for years. Your Swampert or Tapu fini can only last for so long. High ladder and tournament players have had a hard on for Heatran for 3 gens now, and even they end up using weird gimmicks like PP stalling magma storms with Kyurem/Suicune, teching EQ on Glowking, or using their own Heatran to deter the enemy Heatran from spamming Magma Storm.

I honestly don't have an opinion on HDB or Teleport spam, I think they bring new and interesting interactions that I find fun in the game. HDB Regenerator is getting annoying but at the same time it makes Balanced so versatile so that's cool. Just test Heatran for the love god pleeeease :)

:Zamazenta-Crowned: 3 Once we looked at everything properly, there's no harm in letting this down for 2 weeks and test it.
:Darmanitan-Galar: 2 Same thing, but I do think this will be banned regardless so IDK
:Zygarde: 1111111111111 Please don't let this come back. We've tested this 1,000 times and I'm tired of Glare + Thousand Arrows spam in every game for 2 weeks straight
 
RufflesPro said:
My 2 cents:

Personally, I don't mind testing Zamazenta-C or even Darm-Galar for like 2 quick weeks, but only after we have looked at everything problematic in the tier first.

:Magearna: 5 I used to think this is not as broken as Cinderace, but recently Specs Magearna has been really getting on me nerves, especially coupled with the fact that literally everyone and their mom is spamming Magearna behind screens on every other team. Draining Kiss makes the Shift Gear set just so insanely broken and Specs is even more broken so yeah. I've even started to use max SpD Nidoqueen on some of my teams because of how annoying the specs set is.

:Cinderace: 5 I mean yeah it's not as broken as Magearna but it's broken enough. The pivoting is insane and if you don't have Toxapex or Hippowdon you never really have an actual counter. Everything else can be poisoned by Gunk Shot or just slowly chipped with STAB U-turn + Rocks + Future Sight. Court Change, Bulk Up + Zen Headbutt, and Electro Ball are just overkill utility options. This is embarassing to admit but I was laddering a new account the other day and I lost to Flame Charge + Electro Ball + Acrobatics Cinderace. I don't know what madman came up with this gimmick but it gets past Slowbro and Scarf Lando-T which are the most common glues for Ace rn.

:Heatran: 4 I really don't care what anyone says. I honestly from the bottom of my heart truly believe that Heatran is one of most broken mons in their tier right now. It always has been, it's just always overshadowed by other things, and people just choose to ignore it anyways because Heatran's insane stallbreaking abilities keeps stall in check. You don't even need to run Power Herb Solar Beam to kill defensive water types because how ridiculous this thing is. The reason I liked SpD Hydreigon more than Mandibuzz in Spectrier meta is because it also countered Heatran, but I still lost some games to Heatran due to Toxic + Magma Storm + Rocks wearing it down throughout the match. It's so insane how a well played Heatran can singe-handedly win games and break cores, and it's honestly been doing that for years. Your Swampert or Tapu fini can only last for so long. High ladder and tournament players have had a hard on for Heatran for 3 gens now, and even they end up using weird gimmicks like PP stalling magma storms with Kyurem/Suicune, teching EQ on Glowking, or using their own Heatran to deter the enemy Heatran from spamming Magma Storm.

I honestly don't have an opinion on HDB or Teleport spam, I think they bring new and interesting interactions that I find fun in the game. HDB Regenerator is getting annoying but at the same time it makes Balanced so versatile so that's cool. Just test Heatran for the love god pleeeease :)

:Zamazenta-Crowned: 3 Once we looked at everything properly, there's no harm in letting this down for 2 weeks and test it.
:Darmanitan-Galar: 2 Same thing, but I do think this will be banned regardless so IDK
:Zygarde: 1111111111111 Please don't let this come back. We've tested this 1,000 times and I'm tired of Glare + Thousand Arrows spam in every game for 2 weeks straight
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heatran isnt even close to broken. heatran does heatran things. None of the things you've mentioned are worthy of making heatran a suspect. If you keep losing to heatran maybe make stronger cores. It's a great stall killer but that certainly doesn't push it over the edge.
 
RufflesPro said:
:Heatran: 4 I really don't care what anyone says. I honestly from the bottom of my heart truly believe that Heatran is one of most broken mons in their tier right now. It always has been, it's just always overshadowed by other things, and people just choose to ignore it anyways because Heatran's insane stallbreaking abilities keeps stall in check. You don't even need to run Power Herb Solar Beam to kill defensive water types because how ridiculous this thing is. The reason I liked SpD Hydreigon more than Mandibuzz in Spectrier meta is because it also countered Heatran, but I still lost some games to Heatran due to Toxic + Magma Storm + Rocks wearing it down throughout the match. It's so insane how a well played Heatran can singe-handedly win games and break cores, and it's honestly been doing that for years. Your Swampert or Tapu fini can only last for so long. High ladder and tournament players have had a hard on for Heatran for 3 gens now, and even they end up using weird gimmicks like PP stalling magma storms with Kyurem/Suicune, teching EQ on Glowking, or using their own Heatran to deter the enemy Heatran from spamming Magma Storm.
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How is it broken when it loses to Landorus Therian and Garchomp, arguably the two most common mons around? Not to mention that magma storm isn't even a reliable move in the first place? As mentioned in the above post, Heatran does Heatran things, and so does every pokemon in the tier, they do what they're supposed to. Just because a certain mon is that good at its job doesn't mean its banworthy. If that was the case then we might as well get rid of Garchomp, Landorus Therian, Rillaboom, Cinderace and whatever else that does their jobs perfectly because they're good at it

Also, suspects only happen when a certain pokemon is restrictive in the game, like how a team without Buzzwole was an auto lose to Urshifu or how a team that doesn't have Tyranitar or Hydreigon was an auto lose to Spectrier. Heatran doesn't restrict the game. It very vulnerable to ground types and you're not even using ground types with Heatran in mind. You put Lando or Chomp on your team because they're great pokemon. Sorry but we are not suspecting Heatran
 
I don't mean any disrespect, but I feel like the past few posts are kind of missing the point with Heatran. I'm not sure why this happens, but I think that sometimes people just point out Pokemon that threaten a different Pokemon as checks to it when they don't consider if they can safely switch into it. Sure, Ground types can force Heatran out, but they don't like switching into Toxic, Lava Plume and risking getting Burned, or even just Magma Storm chip, especially when coupled with Protect. What makes Heatran so good is that Heatran can safely switch into many Pokemon in the tier, but very little can safely switch into Magma Storm/Lava Plume, Toxic, Protect/Taunt, and Earth Power. However, that's kind of always been the case with Heatran - it can switch into a lot but it's difficult to switch against - and it's why it's always been very good. I don't necessarily feel like Heatran is too overbearing though, primarily because of its lack of reliable recovery, limiting how often it can switch in throughout a game, but it's obviously a very good Pokemon. Also, RufflesPro is an accomplished builder and player with plenty of high-ladder experience, so I respect his thoughts on this; it's not like he's some random, newer player that doesn't understand the game. I don't really think that Heatran should be suspected, especially at this point, but I also think that his thoughts on the Pokemon shouldn't be so easily dismissed.
 
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Okay, long time lurker back with more hot-takes.
Reminder: I said a while back (don't waste time trying to find it) that Magearna and Cinderace never should have been unbannedwhen DLC-2 dropped.
I'm grateful that both of them are being considered again. Both 5s. Moving on.

For all the people discussing whether or not boots are the problem or teleport or this or that, the REAL problem is:

Stealth Rock.

This move is inherently broken and has warped the Pokemon metagame for YEARS. I mean, look at how we TALK about competitive pokemon now "guaranteed XHKO after stealth rock," "chip damage" (it's almost always stealth rock's damage), etc.
Stealth Rock is FAR more broken than the other hazards, and it FORCES teams to run a rapid spinner or defogger or use HDB. Otherwise? You lose. 12.5% HP off a neautral-to-ground-switch. that's 1/8th of your hp. Every switch. On every pokemon. No immunities. No way around it.
The reason HDB are so prevelant now is because Stealth Rock has had the metagame wrapped around its little rocky finger for 5 Generations.
This isn't accounting for a hazard that deals 50% of certain mon's health WITH ONE LAYER, or how its stranglehold forced people to use more fighting types, or ANY of that.

I think this move deals more damage in any match than anything else in the history of the game. It should've been suspected in Gen 4 (if it was, I don't know, I didn't play competitively back then). It should be suspected in every other generation. It is inherently format warping. It dictates what you can and can't use. If Stealth Rock didn't exist, HDB would be a nice item if it was used at all. And before people try to pretend like Spikes are comparable: Spikes takes two-three layers to really matter. Stealth Rock doesn't. One set. 12.5% to a neutral. 25% to a Cinderace or almost every defogger without boots. 50% to Volcarona (that's the only semi-viable OU Pokemon with a 4x Rock weakness. I wonder why?) EDIT: Also Moltres, thanks incorolla!

Other thoughts: Don't unban or waste our time re-suspecting anything previously banned until you get rid of Cinderace and/or Magearna. And when they're finally gone, don't bring them back immediately when the next game/dlc drops.
 
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CheesyBrie said:
It should've been suspected in Gen 4 (if it was, I don't know, I didn't play competitively back then).
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You're completely right. At the time Smogon was new-ish (started in 2004 vs D/P 2007). Things like complex bans, or banning abilities / moves / altering game mechanics was a hard no. They've since changed to be a lot more open to alternative bans but yes absolutely Stealth Rocks should have been suspected. Rocks were so overwhelmingly efficient in D/P that to say 99% of teams ran rocks would likely be an understatement. The lead meta developed where an entire Pokémon slot was devoted to doing nothing except laying rocks, taunting / spinning, then dying. Pokémon like Moltres and Abomasnow who could have otherwise been OU viable on their own required tremendous team support to see any usage and generally were worse than teams that didn't run them.

I feel like if the current ban policy and playerbase time travelled back to 2007 Rocks would be tested and banned. Counterplay was minimal and ineffective, and the opportunity cost of one single moveslot on a single Pokemon was almost non existent. Now, in 2021, the ban ship has long since sailed. 4th gen is what it is and banning rocks would be unnecessary, and probably not be popular with the long time players of the tier who enjoy the lead meta / team building restrictions. In 6th gen onward Defog was buffed and now we have Boots to really negate hazards if needed. Nothing should be done about the missed opportunity in 4th gen but I guess sometimes it's interesting to look back at the past and see how the opinions of the community shift.
 
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it sure is funny how people pinned rocks for making pokemon like Moltres unviable and then when they get an item to circumvent this weakness, it turns out they're still pretty mediocre and people just overlook that rocks weaks mons tend to have a host of other problems that make them not worth running/removing rocks for, which was already made very easy in gen 7 by the extreme boost in defog distribution. This gen literally gave us Corviknight, which is probably one of the best forms of hazard removal we've ever seen, capable of beating every rocker in the tier besides like Mixed Chomp, Trick Clef, or Heatran, and these rock weak mons still suck/are generally mediocre outside of the ones that are, yknow, genuinely good like Zapdos.

We are WAY past the point where you can pin SR as broken and overly limiting, chip is healthy for a game that lacks many ways to properly punish switches, even moreso with the removal or neutering of so many forms of it.

e: also its incredibly unfair to pin Spin/Boots/Defog as just for rocks when Spikes are just as integral to controlling the pace of the match, if not moreso due to its ability to limit Regen and common steels much more impactfully, even if there's only like 3-ish spikers in the tier rlly
 
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Gomi said:
it sure is funny how people pinned rocks for making pokemon like Moltres unviable and then when they get an item to circumvent this weakness, it turns out they're still pretty mediocre and people just overlook that rocks weaks mons tend to have a host of other problems that make them not worth running/removing rocks for, which was already made very easy in gen 7 by the extreme boost in defog distribution. This gen literally gave us Corviknight, which is probably one of the best forms of hazard removal we've ever seen, capable of beating every rocker in the tier besides like Mixed Chomp, Trick Clef, or Heatran, and these rock weak mons still suck/are generally mediocre.

We are WAY past the point where you can pin SR as broken and overly limiting, chip is healthy for a game that lacks many ways to properly punish switches, even moreso with the removal or neutering of so many forms of it.
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what are we talking about here, the reason moltres is considered not good is because the things it's supposed to counter like rilla and kartana just knock it off so it dies to rocks anyways, and that is mostly agreed to be the actual reason moltres use is falling off. If anything, it shows that even HDB are not good enough to save you from rocks(not even taking into account that giving up an item slot just not to get murdered by rocks still jumped moltres up a rank between gens).
Also how is a move that is 99.9% guaranteed to be on every team not overly limiting. Oh not only that, but a way to remove it is required on like 95% of all teams. Oh and on top of that, you STILL need 1 to 2 item slots to make sure some select mons on your team are not just deleted by them if you can't get rid of them. This is levels of team building restriction that make spectrier look like a sad joke.
Also rocks are absolutely braindead to use: can the opposing mon cripple you in one turn if you use rocks? if no, guess what, rocks are up! and even if they can sometimes it's worth it. A rocks user that is not in immediate danger of dying can have a move that is guaranteed to bring massive rewards with the opponent having 0 ways to stop you, since if they try to stay in you wall them and get rocks up, and if you switch, it doesn't matter; they don't even have to predict what you are switching into since they can just click rocks. Rocks used to put all the onus for outplaying on the guy that let someone click a very hard to punish move once in the game, and now with HDB the guy with rocks up at least has to try and get a knock off to reap all of its rewards.
I do agree that a way to punish constant switches is necessary and this gen shows it with regenerator shenanigans(which is a bit weird since regenerator mons at least can switch into rocks repeatedly), the problem is that rocks are an absolutely awful way to implement punishing switches, since they are broken, way too easy to use and punish a subset of pokemon extremely disproportionately thus shaping the metagame(why does excadrill take 3% from them, and volcarona 50%). Also did you ever hear things like "oof stealth rock garchomp shreds this team" in an RMT? No, you hear the words "stealth rocks shred this team", which shows that even if the stricter criteria for banning abilities and moves is applied, stealth rocks still fulfill them and then some, since they are broken on basically anything that can set them(which is a LOT of different mons) and isn't complete garbage of a mon. I don't think they will ever get considered for a ban since it would basically end competitive battling as we know it(which kinda says something about them being overcentralizing), but they are absolutely deserving of it by any metric.
In conclusion HDB to me seems like a middling solution to an absolute awful trainwreck of a solution(rocks) to a game design real problem(switchfests being kinda dumb)
 
I think the discussion around Heatran is completely valid - if I was forced to ban 3 mons in this meta immediately, Heatran would be #3 after Magearna and Cinderace. However, it's important to note that Heatran right now is being forced onto teams as a glue mon that's able to check many variants of the former two (as well as opposing Heatrans). Even if this gains traction, I'd advocate being patient on any kind of action.

Still, I think this is a discussion worth having. I think people are somewhat resistant to this because of its status as glue in the current meta, but it's very true that Heatran as an offensive presence itself is difficult to play around, and is in my opinion not exactly the healthiest for the meta. Heatran's status as a trapper is, to put it bluntly, very annoying. It essentially means that anything switching into it that can't pivot, stall it out, or kill it within the timeframe, is dead on the spot. This wouldn't be a problem, except that Heatran can in many cases prevent this from happening. Taunt (coupled with its passable speed tier) can shut down recovery attempts or teleports from Blissey or Slowtwins; Toxic can wear down most bulky switchins; Protect can often stretch 2HKOs into 4 or 5 turns (during which a lot of chip can add up); Earth Power hits opposing Heatrans who could normally ignore trapping attempts.

Obviously, Heatran can't run Magma Storm, Earth Power, Taunt, Toxic and Protect at the same time (and often forgoes one for Rocks), but it can be very difficult to predict exactly what its moveset is, and guessing incorrectly could lead to your Slowbro being trapped by Toxic/Taunt/Protect, or your own Heatran being speed crept and eating an Earth Power. Viewed in this way, the list of consistent checks, while not insignificant, isn't huge; and even things like Chomp, Swampert, Hippo and Hydreigon can be forced to eat a Toxic. With the loss of The only things that can really be called a completely easy switchin are Tapu Fini (who competes heavily with Slowbro or Pex), EQ Glowking (giving up an important moveslot) and SpDef Heal Bell EQ Dragonite (legit set btw), and even this leads to the other problem of trapping; it gives you a significant option advantage over your opponent by robbing them of the opportunity to double, providing free momentum in exchange for just 1 Magma Storm PP. The reason why Garchomp is such a consistent check is that nothing wants to be around it after a Swords Dance; for everything else, it's not a huge challenge to just switch to something that can wall out or majorly threaten what's in front of you, and they still have to take a non-insignificant amount of Magma Storm and probably hazard chip chip in the process.

Ultimately, even if Heatran's ability to trap significant portions of the metagame isn't broken in itself (it's not exactly hard to fit in a switchin that easily threatens it out, Magma Storm likes to miss, Garchomp exists), it still feels uncompetitive and overwhelming to me due to the nature of Magma Storm as a high power trapping move with the only immunity being another Heatran, and the dangerous unpredictability Heatran as a pokemon presents. I'm fully aware that I've simply described a lot of what makes Heatran a good pokemon rather than why it's broken; but I think the ease at which it can come in and create these very favourable situations/go fishing thanks to its monstrous bulk and easy access to Protect pushes it close to the edge. While I might be wrong on this, I can imagine it becoming more unhealthy if its necessary utility as blanket Magearna check/non-HJK Cinderace check is removed, and it can truly focus on being an offensive trapper.
 
glava222 said:
what are we talking about here, the reason moltres is considered not good is because the things it's supposed to counter like rilla and kartana just knock it off so it dies to rocks anyways, and that is mostly agreed to be the actual reason moltres use is falling off. If anything, it shows that even HDB are not good enough to save you from rocks(not even taking into account that giving up an item slot just not to get murdered by rocks still jumped moltres up a rank between gens).
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Moltres is a status prone, mediocre defogger that loses to every form of hazard setting but non toxic Heatran and certain Ferro sets while failing to check that much of the metagame well beyond sd Kart at high health, Rillaboom, and the aforementioned non Tox Heatran. Its typing comes with a host of weaknesses that have nothing to do with SR. it's not as simplistic as knock off or else other rocks weak defoggers would be in the same position.
glava222 said:
Also how is a move that is 99.9% guaranteed to be on every team not overly limiting. Oh not only that, but a way to remove it is required on like 95% of all teams. Oh and on top of that, you STILL need 1 to 2 item slots to make sure some select mons on your team are not just deleted by them if you can't get rid of them. This is levels of team building restriction that make spectrier look like a sad joke.
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1. being on 99% of teams is not inherently unhealthy and simply speaks to the necessity of chip to close the margin of error vs defensive mons or limit the entry of offensive mons, especially when the chip at hand fits incredibly naturally due to its high distribution on a number of fantastic pokemon.

2. Hazard removal is for more than just Rocks and I'm very tired of people downplaying the impact of spikes because of their lower distribution,doing 25% to every grounded pokemon with 3 layers and ignoring resistances is absolutely huge and absolutely a huge reason why hazard removal is considered mandatory on most teams, and I don't take "you can build around spikes" as a valid response because the same thing applies to rocks and if anything, rocks are much easier to build around not being able to remove due to most flyings having consistent recovery and a number of great types resisting the move altogether.

3. Boots aren't only for rocks, implying such is reductive, really a lot of the same shit i've already said. Ignoring a popular form of chip is just an incredible benefit to have, it does not prove that chip is unhealthy.
glava222 said:
I do agree that a way to punish constant switches is necessary and this gen shows it with regenerator shenanigans(which is a bit weird since regenerator mons at least can switch into rocks repeatedly), the problem is that rocks are an absolutely awful way to implement punishing switches, since they are broken, way too easy to use and punish a subset of pokemon extremely disproportionately thus shaping the metagame(why does excadrill take 3% from them, and volcarona 50%).
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What pokemon are rocks holding back at this point then? just saying this mechanic is unfair to these types isn't substantial, a good chunk of the pokemon that aren't OU are not the fault of rocks primarily, if the fault of rocks at all. Why would I use the sea of bug flyings when its a bad typing with bad offensive coverage and common weaknesses?
Honestly tho its pretty hard to find examples without going REAL low and listing something obvious like Arcanine, most of the rock weaks you'll see going down from OU are immune to rocks, pretty obviously outclassed, or have a niche.

I respect your view on the matter but i fail to see how rocks are a net negative when they're really the only splashable way to punishes switches left in the game
 
in the interest of not going on an absolutely massive post derailing the topic, I'm going to say that I agree with the notion that punishing switches is a very important to the game and should absolutely be present in some form, and I agree rocks absolutely do that. I think we just disagree on whether stealth rocks are a healthy way of doing so, considering all the other things attached to them.
 
This Heatran sentiment is only for slow do nothing builds why is there so much emphasis on it in most recent posts in a format with much more volatile threats like Chomp, Ace, Mag, even Rillaboom, Dragapult, Torn-T as well as a multitude of Knock off users exist and things to deter it? Why is Heatran being called uncompetitive on the condition of a move that has 75% accuracy, where the term uncompetitive gets thrown around for anything trap related originating from Gen6 STAG suspect stigmas?
 
RufflesPro said:
My 2 cents:

Personally, I don't mind testing Zamazenta-C or even Darm-Galar for like 2 quick weeks, but only after we have looked at everything problematic in the tier first.

:Magearna: 5 I used to think this is not as broken as Cinderace, but recently Specs Magearna has been really getting on me nerves, especially coupled with the fact that literally everyone and their mom is spamming Magearna behind screens on every other team. Draining Kiss makes the Shift Gear set just so insanely broken and Specs is even more broken so yeah. I've even started to use max SpD Nidoqueen on some of my teams because of how annoying the specs set is.

:Cinderace: 5 I mean yeah it's not as broken as Magearna but it's broken enough. The pivoting is insane and if you don't have Toxapex or Hippowdon you never really have an actual counter. Everything else can be poisoned by Gunk Shot or just slowly chipped with STAB U-turn + Rocks + Future Sight. Court Change, Bulk Up + Zen Headbutt, and Electro Ball are just overkill utility options. This is embarassing to admit but I was laddering a new account the other day and I lost to Flame Charge + Electro Ball + Acrobatics Cinderace. I don't know what madman came up with this gimmick but it gets past Slowbro and Scarf Lando-T which are the most common glues for Ace rn.

:Heatran: 4 I really don't care what anyone says. I honestly from the bottom of my heart truly believe that Heatran is one of most broken mons in their tier right now. It always has been, it's just always overshadowed by other things, and people just choose to ignore it anyways because Heatran's insane stallbreaking abilities keeps stall in check. You don't even need to run Power Herb Solar Beam to kill defensive water types because how ridiculous this thing is. The reason I liked SpD Hydreigon more than Mandibuzz in Spectrier meta is because it also countered Heatran, but I still lost some games to Heatran due to Toxic + Magma Storm + Rocks wearing it down throughout the match. It's so insane how a well played Heatran can singe-handedly win games and break cores, and it's honestly been doing that for years. Your Swampert or Tapu fini can only last for so long. High ladder and tournament players have had a hard on for Heatran for 3 gens now, and even they end up using weird gimmicks like PP stalling magma storms with Kyurem/Suicune, teching EQ on Glowking, or using their own Heatran to deter the enemy Heatran from spamming Magma Storm.

I honestly don't have an opinion on HDB or Teleport spam, I think they bring new and interesting interactions that I find fun in the game. HDB Regenerator is getting annoying but at the same time it makes Balanced so versatile so that's cool. Just test Heatran for the love god pleeeease :)

:Zamazenta-Crowned: 3 Once we looked at everything properly, there's no harm in letting this down for 2 weeks and test it.
:Darmanitan-Galar: 2 Same thing, but I do think this will be banned regardless so IDK
:Zygarde: 1111111111111 Please don't let this come back. We've tested this 1,000 times and I'm tired of Glare + Thousand Arrows spam in every game for 2 weeks straight
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Heatran sometimes is annoying because even things like garchomp take to too much damage from defensive tran. But also this mon help to check so much of the meta that I think we need it.
 
It is a fundamental principle of Smogon tiering that broken does not check broken. We don't "need them to check things in the tier", if it's broken it gets banned. If other things then become broken, we ban them too.
 
While Heatran isn't the most threatening poke to offense, how are you even supposed to reliably switch into it with balance? I've played games where heatran 1v1s my slowbro and blissey in the same game. Like, if those two pokes can't even trade with heatran, what am am I to do, just cry about it?

Same with Magearna but that's pretty obviously broken, I don't think that's a hot take.
 
Trashuny said:
While Heatran isn't the most threatening poke to offense, how are you even supposed to reliably switch into it with balance? I've played games where heatran 1v1s my slowbro and blissey in the same game. Like, if those two pokes can't even trade with heatran, what am am I to do, just cry about it?

Same with Magearna but that's pretty obviously broken, I don't think that's a hot take.
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Rest TankChomp/Pert is a good way to "counter" it. Another is SpDef heal bell Dragonite is good.
 
I'm gonna put in my two cents about Heatran and stealth rock

I don't think it is remotely broken in any way. Yes it is a trapper but Heatran cannot be that reliable of a trapper, unlike something like shadow tag or arena trap. That's not even mentioning how magma storm isn't the most reliable move. Regardless of what anyone says, I will never be convinced of something being broken if it has to rely on rng to do its job. If something is broken, then it must be able to do its job consistently like how any team without Buzzwole was a near auto lose to Urshifu

The things I mentioned like Garchomp or Landorus Therian are only checks not counters. That's why mons like Heatran and the mentioned two are great mons. Regardless of what happens, they have next to no hard counters. Corviknight switches in against Garchomp? Oops, mixed fire blast, now it died. That's what makes these mons great, in nearly every situation, they have a way to cripple their own answers or in some cases, beat them themselves. Think about it, does Landorus Therian like eating repeated hits from Garchomp? Does Zapdos or Moltres like losing their boots to Rillaboom? Does Slowbro like tanking repeated hits from the offensive ground types? Yes, the former pokemon does almost always beat the latter in a one on one fight, they still don't like the prospect of just mindlessly switching in

Heatran is just like them. It cannot beat Chomp or Lando but it can always leave a mark with toxic or just magma storm chip. But in the end, isn't that the point of the game? To try and outthink your opponent and get yourself in a good position? Competitive pokemon to me has always just been a chess on steroids except that there is a very large trace of randomness in it

Yes, Heatran isn't the easiest thing to switch into, but then again, which mons is?

Now about stealth rock, I don't think this should even be considered to be banned, otherwise games would just take over five hours with near endless switching and it would only make Cinderace and Volcarona even more deadly than they already are. You don't think that the minor chip from stealth rocks count? Go back and play gen seven and say that after Zard Y gets unpunished switch ins and starts blasting stuff with sun boosted stab flamethrowers

If anything, I think boots should be banned, or at the very least the tier be tried without them. If it wasn't for my Heatran losing to a stupid hp ground Volcarona, gen seven would probably be my favorite gen

In gens four and five, maybe stealth rock was banworthy as the only option to remove it was rapid spin, which can be blocked by ghost types. But after gen six, stealth rocks became manageable because you now have defog to clear them. Despite defog having less pp than rocks, it didn't really matter as you're not gonna be just defogging or setting rocks up for thirty turns straight and you might as well use those turns to try and make some progress

Gen seven was the same story, except defog is now everywhere, even on something that doesn't make sense like how can Serperior blow away rocks in the first place but whatever. Gen seven basically made sure that stealth rock wasn't that oppressive anymore. Yes, Volcarona and Zard Y still loses half their life switching in but at the same team, you had a lot of options to ensure that upon switching in, those two, along with many other rock tweak mons don't lose a quarter of their life

This is why I wanna get rid of boots. Like how Zard Y and Volcarona were powerful mons last gen, they had a massive risk in using them but at the same time, the methods to bypass that risk, which is mainly defog but also spin, were very common and the many of the mons that had one of those moves weren't exactly crippling your own team. There was almost always a good defogger for any type of team

These days Volcarona is almost never gonna get punished even on a safe switch in due to the boots and can rain down fiery dances everywhere. It's also the reason why I believe Cinderace is broken. I did say that it was nothing more than an irritation for me but it does not change the fact that the near unpunished switch ins it has forced mons like Garchomp to go tank or Slowbro and Pex to wear helmets just to chip it down. This would also mean that to use someone like Cinderace or Volcarona, or any rock weak mon, you actually have to put in effort to switch them in

All in all, I think boots removed one very crucial question that every player asks themselves on every turn. "Am I in trouble if I switch this against that?"
 
I didn't think my Heatran post would get this much traction, I just wanted to point out that we should have a good discussion on Heatran in the future (also the reason why I didn't go too in depth).

Although writing 5 essays on why I think Heatran should be banned sounds better than sex, I really don't wanna clutter this thread with Heatran discussion. I think Goodbye & Thanks and OvertoneSeries have made good points on why Heatran could be potentially problematic so I'm not really going to expand on their points. All I wanted to note is that we should have an important discussion about Heatran, but probably in the future (once we deal with Cinderace and Magearna specifically).

For the moment, just keep Heatran in your thoughts, so here's a final note to take on: the argument of Heatran being completely reliant on RNG is completely invalid. I'm not comparing Heatran to Stag anyways. This might be a weird analogy for some but anyone who played other games like Overwatch or LoL will probably understand me when I say that the reason why Heatran might be broken is not because of Heatran himself, but the idea of Heatran. This is very similar to the broken Road Hog in the early stages of OW (pre-patch) or Evelynn's invisibility in LoL, you will always have people tell you they're not really that hard to outplay (JUST DODGE THE HOOK 4HEAD) or to track their cooldown, but in reality most pro/gm players will tell you that they are broken because of their potential. In those games the limiting factor is not the PP of the move or the variable sets a Pokemon can run, but the cooldown of the ability. So when the old Road Hog for example has his hook ready, all of a sudden the enemy team becomes really scary to approach because if someone is hooked they instantly die and put the team in a 5v6 disadvantage. However, the moment Road Hog uses his hook, and he whiffs, you suddenly have a 6-8 second window to go offensive. Similarly, just the idea of Heatran alone puts incredible pressure on both your team and the teambuilder. You HAVE to be prepared for the Magma storm + Taunt most Heatrans are running, along the possibilities of Toxic, EPower, Protect, or any combination of the two. Nobody is switching to his corviknight hoping Magma Storm misses, rather you switch in your Garchomp which can take 1 hit per game and hope you can get an SD / Rocks off of it. The Magma storm might miss and make you relieved (i.e the road hog missing) which gives you an advantage in that you can still set up rocks/SD AND also come in later for that free 1 hit per game, but you still did the right play but letting your Garchomp, one of the best offensive mons right now, possibly take chip. If the opponent hits his Magma Storm, switches out, and safely bring in their Heatran later in the game, now all of a sudden you don't have any reliable switch ins, you just had to hope that your team was strong enough to break the enemy team with the Garchomp Gambit ™

My current favorite is Finchinator's Lava Plume + Magma Storm set which punishes so many people who have gotten used to switching in their Garchomp, Urshifu-RS, Dragonite, or even Lando-T as their 1 time only get out of jail free card and hope they can use that moment to dent the team before Heatran can come back in again. Instead, it punishes them with a burn, and on top of it the opponent will think Tox/Slowbro are free switchins on Lava Plume Heatran only to get trapped by Magma.

As further proof to my argument, look at the sample teams or most high ladder non-HO/rain teams that don't have Fini + Kyurem/Suicune. They are teching Shed Shell Toxapex, EQ glowking, or the defensive dragon sets that are on the come up like Garchomp/Hydreigon/Dragonite/Salamence (All these sets are legit sets that do multiple things aside from checking Heatran, but there's no doubt they are gimmicks that provide important utility in checking Heatran on top of what they already want to check, otherwise other pokemon would be used over them), all of which are small but persistent proof that Heatran just might be problematic.


I know that I said I'm not gonna expand more on Heatran, but the temptation was too much. Just take this as food for thought for whenever we have this Heatran discussion again after Mag/Ace suspect. Meanwhile, I'm going to dedicate the next two months of my free time trying to get proof that Heatran is indeed problematic. Have a good day :blobthumbsup:
 
Hello there,
This post is brought to you by oliVes, DKM, Katy , and I.

We've been hearing about Heatran being a menace in the current metagame, but is that the case?
We're here to explain exactly why thats not the case.

First off lets start off with the accusation that Heatran the lovable cockroach that it is, is uncheckable.
This statement is just not true as it is able to be checked by a lot of pokemon.
Bulky-water types such as:
  • :slowking: Slowking
  • :tapu-fini: Tapu Fini
  • :swampert: Swampert
Dragon types such as:
  • :garchomp: Garchomp
  • :Dragonite: Dragonite
  • :latias: Latias
  • :Latios: Latios
  • :Hydreigon: Hydreigon
Good Special walls such as:
  • :tyranitar: Tyranitar
  • :slowking-galar: Slowking-Galar
Now moving onto the plethora of Heatran checks out there such as:
  • :Landorus-Therian: Landorus-Therian
  • :Excadrill: Excadrill
  • :Nidoking: Nidoking
  • :garchomp: Garchomp
  • :urshifu: Urshifu-RS
  • :zapdos-galar: Zapdos-Galar
  • :barraskewda: Barraskewda

The next reason we've heard for a Heatran ban is because it can get around its checks and counters easily. This, although slightly true, is not a great reason for a ban as some of its counters are not bothered by the status it can inflict and some examples of this are Tapu Fini, Rest Garchomp, and Slowking-Galar. Not only that but Heatran often chooses to run Stealth Rocks over Toxic and Magma Storm over Lava Plume. Stealth Rocks is not a problem at all as explained by Gomi above.

While Magma Storm trapping is very potent it isn't super reliable due to the poor accuracy and low PP of the move.

Another flaw of Heatran is that it gets worn down easily, with Leftovers being its only form of recovery in a metagame where Knock Off is very relevant. In addition to this, a lot of Pokemon Heatran might be used to check like Magearna, Tornadus-T, and Tapu Lele can run Fighting-type coverage moves which only makes it harder for Heatran to stay healthy.

Conclusion: Heatran isn't broken nerds
1613833770400.png
 
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:zamazenta-crowned:
On the subject of this abomination against nature, I just want to mention something.
Kartana has 181 base ATK. It has Sacred Sword, which ignores Dauntless Shield and is super-effective.
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 274-324 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 342-404 (132 - 155.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (and it is faster)
Zama-C counters Choice Band Kartana. Without any defensive investment. So uh, why should this even be considered for OU again??? When it switches in for free on every Knock Off, every Toxic, every Stealth Rock and proceeds to beat anything bar Haze Pex 1v1. It's like Melmetal pre-DLC, where it can just switch in on any physical attacker it feels like and trade health with mons of its choice. Except it outruns most the game, which makes it painful to revenge kill, even once weakened.
Oh and lol Zygarde. Thousand Arrows go brrr. Darm. U-turn go brrr. These two are even worse...

Teleport is what competitive players put 101 clauses on Baton Pass to try and have in oldgens. It's totally fine.
Banning HDB is every bit as dumb as banning Leftovers IMO. Yes, it's a good item, but it has clear and massive drawbacks. Such as not having Leftovers.
Stealth Rock is centralizing yes. Overcentralising? Probably. But:
1. SR has never been weaker in the history of mons.
2. Overcentralising is not always a bad thing.
Stealth Rock adds an extra layer of strategy to Pokemon that the game is far poorer without. Being able to punish things like Regenerator spam, VoltTurn spam, Teleport spam, all massive. Being able to chip defensive mons as they switch in so the KO range is reduced. Limiting the lifespan of powerful offensive mons.
Yes, this is why people are complaining about HDB, but let's be real Leftovers achieves something very similar while being better against Sandstorm chip, status, residual trapping and in prolonged 1v1s. They both have pros and cons, but it's pretty clear that HDB is not so far better than Leftovers that it is somehow banworthy. Unless you're that desperate to preserve Cinderace so you can lose to it on HO because it had the exact set to beat your remaining checks.

Interesting discussion on Heatran. I'm in the camp that it's just doing the same things it always has, but I'm curious to hear what others think.
 
theotherguytm said:
:zamazenta-crowned:
On the subject of this abomination against nature, I just want to mention something.
Kartana has 181 base ATK. It has Sacred Sword, which ignores Dauntless Shield and is super-effective.
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 274-324 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 342-404 (132 - 155.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (and it is faster)
Zama-C counters Choice Band Kartana. Without any defensive investment. So uh, why should this even be considered for OU again??? When it switches in for free on every Knock Off, every Toxic, every Stealth Rock and proceeds to beat anything bar Haze Pex 1v1. It's like Melmetal pre-DLC, where it can just switch in on any physical attacker it feels like and trade health with mons of its choice. Except it outruns most the game, which makes it painful to revenge kill, even once weakened.
Oh and lol Zygarde. Thousand Arrows go brrr. Darm. U-turn go brrr. These two are even worse...

Teleport is what competitive players put 101 clauses on Baton Pass to try and have in oldgens. It's totally fine.
Banning HDB is every bit as dumb as banning Leftovers IMO. Yes, it's a good item, but it has clear and massive drawbacks. Such as not having Leftovers.
Stealth Rock is centralizing yes. Overcentralising? Probably. But:
1. SR has never been weaker in the history of mons.
2. Overcentralising is not always a bad thing.
Stealth Rock adds an extra layer of strategy to Pokemon that the game is far poorer without. Being able to punish things like Regenerator spam, VoltTurn spam, Teleport spam, all massive. Being able to chip defensive mons as they switch in so the KO range is reduced. Limiting the lifespan of powerful offensive mons.
Yes, this is why people are complaining about HDB, but let's be real Leftovers achieves something very similar while being better against Sandstorm chip, status, residual trapping and in prolonged 1v1s. They both have pros and cons, but it's pretty clear that HDB is not so far better than Leftovers that it is somehow banworthy. Unless you're that desperate to preserve Cinderace so you can lose to it on HO because it had the exact set to beat your remaining checks.

Interesting discussion on Heatran. I'm in the camp that it's just doing the same things it always has, but I'm curious to hear what others think.
Click to expand...
Saying that Zamazenta """Counters""" Choice Band kartana by barely surviving a hit after rocks that is basically irrecoverable damage is laughable,what happens if Kart switches out or if Zama gets chipped in the slightest?
 
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