Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Hello Smogon, I am posting this message to you on my personal opinion concerning the current OU metagame and my feelings on the strategy at the moment. I find that the SS OU metagame is really bad because of a pokemon called kyurem which for me deserves at least a suspect test because the pressure it puts on the build (at least for me) is quite monstrous thanks to its set choice specs typing very hard and having little switch in as well as its very effective substitute set against stall, the pokemon is the main reason why scizor is more and more played in OU precisely me in my builds a lot of my teams have a scizor or a blissey so much kyurem is a threat, that's why I would say that it deserves at least a suspect test. Besides I found very interesting to test zamazenta crowned in OU in April it allowed to renew a little the metagame, precisely I thought about why not a suspect test of zygarde in OU thanks to several reasons which I will state: first of all I would say that in the current metagame there are many pokémons capable either of revenge kill zygarde or of the manage in a way re defensive I could state for example weavile which is extremely strong and popular nowadays and which would make a very good revenge killer in zygarde there is also kyurem of which I spoke above which with its very good bulk can tank and threaten very strongly zygarde there is also defensive dragonite with heal bell and ice beam to avoid being haxx by glare, there is also slowbro which is played with ice beam and which tanks zygarde very well with the possibility of burning it with scald, i will not not state the whole list I could also have mentioned landorus therian mandibuzz and clefable but in short for me zygarde would be a very interesting pokemon to suspect test in OU and that would also make it possible to bring something new to the 8th generation strategy as we have it currently know. That was all I had to say and on this I wish you happiness !!!
 
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Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Pre-Contributor
Hello Smogon, I am posting this message to you on my personal opinion concerning the current OU metagame and my feelings on the strategy at the moment. I find that the SS OU metagame is really bad because of a pokemon called kyurem which for me deserves at least a suspect test because the pressure it puts on the build (at least for me) is quite monstrous thanks to its set choice specs typing very hard and having little switch in as well as its very effective substitute set against stall, the pokemon is the main reason why scizor is more and more played in OU precisely me in my builds a lot of my teams have a scizor or a blissey so much kyurem is a threat, that's why I would say that it deserves at least a suspect test. Besides I found very interesting to test zamazenta crowned in OU in April it allowed to renew a little the metagame, precisely I thought about why not a suspect test of zygarde in OU thanks to several reasons which I will state: first of all I would say that in the current metagame there are many pokémons capable either of revenge kill zygarde or of the manage in a way re defensive I could state for example weavile which is extremely strong and popular nowadays and which would make a very good revenge killer in zygarde there is also kyurem of which I spoke above which with its very good bulk can tank and threaten very strongly zygarde there is also defensive dragonite with heal bell and ice beam to avoid being haxx by glare, there is also slowbro which is played with ice beam and which tanks zygarde very well with the possibility of burning it with scald, i will not not state the whole list I could also have mentioned landorus therian mandibuzz and clefable but in short for me zygarde would be a very interesting pokemon to suspect test in OU and that would also make it possible to bring something new to the 8th generation strategy as we have it currently know. That was all I had to say and on this I wish you happiness !!!
Personally very much disagree with a Zygarde suspect, but that's a whole can of worms I'll let someone else open.

Kyurem on the other hand is not deserving of a suspect test in the slightest, for a few reasons.
It's first immediate downfall is it's weakness to stealth rock, which doesn't allow sets like specs or scarf to thrive very well, as well as crippling it to the point where most faster mons have decent chances of KOing it due to it's middling speed.

The Specs set is extremely prediction reliant, but can lead to good results as you said, steel types in general will be a decent check to kyurem most of the time, which usually forces specs sets to second guess and make a bold prediction. However there are pokemon that can check kyurem and scout all of it's moves as well, mons like galarian slowking, regular slowking (Assuming you aren't too low), SPDef Scizor, Bulky Volcarona, the egg twins, SPDef Clef and the rare Aegislash.

While it definitely is a great progress forcer, it pales in comparison to other strong breakers like SD Chomp and Heatran (Hence why it's rated lower). All kyurem sets are also very easily revenge killed with Dragapult, it's more omnipresent dragon partner.

Stall in general isn't doing that great right now, and Kyurem's substitute set is most definitely not the reason why stall is suffering, most Blissey's tend to completely wall sub Kyurem unless it specifically runs a moveslot for it by running icicle spear, which makes it's steel matchup nearly impossible.

Overall Kyurem is definitely a strong pokemon, but it's overeliance on getting choice specs reads correct, weakness to hazards and it's tendency to get revenge killed easily due to it's ice type definitely don't make it that large of a problem.
 
I want to thank you for your opinion indeed the fact that kyurem is weak in stealth rocks as well as its very bad ice type limit it a lot but you see it is a little bit like dracovish it is a pokemon that does absolutely scandalous damage but very easy to revenge kill and yet the pokemon has been banned the concern I have with kyurem is the fact that it haxx quite often for example freeze with ice beam etc in addition to that the pokemon has a coverage just perfect and tanks very well the attacks there is also the fact that it puts a huge pressure on the teambuilding for example in many of my teams I force myself to play scizor only to counter kyurem indeed he still has some checks but a good number of his pokémons will be made pp stall by kyurem with a substitute and roost to give a somewhat clear example I had played a match where the opposing kyurem had freeze my heatran on an ice beam and that was absolute ent changed the whole game in short I totally respect your opinion Concerning zygarde, yes the pokemon is very strong but we must not forget that the pokemon was banned mainly because of its power in itself the pokemon is not very strong basic he does not type very hard he has a correct speed but nothing more and has common weaknesses it is especially that he scams a lot of games because of glare but in my opinion in 8th generation many pokémons are able to succeed in check zygarde while being paralyzed like those I mentioned above slowbro landorus clefable mandibuzz etc moreover the pokemon lost the Z moves which could surprise the clefable which clearly hurt him I find that the pokemon would not be too centralizing as it was in 7th generation where there were few pokémons able to check it and once again I don't think it would bring negative to the metagame on the contrary zygarde would allow to have a good big check to heatran, zapdos, zeraora and so on it would also serve as a good alternative to garchomp afterwards and to conclude this would allow to bring novelty to the current metagame which for the moment has not changed since the month of May once again thank you very much for your opinion !!!
 
I want to thank you for your opinion indeed the fact that kyurem is weak in stealth rocks as well as its very bad ice type limit it a lot but you see it is a little bit like dracovish it is a pokemon that does absolutely scandalous damage but very easy to revenge kill and yet the pokemon has been banned the concern I have with kyurem is the fact that it haxx quite often for example freeze with ice beam etc in addition to that the pokemon has a coverage just perfect and tanks very well the attacks there is also the fact that it puts a huge pressure on the teambuilding for example in many of my teams I force myself to play scizor only to counter kyurem indeed he still has some checks but a good number of his pokémons will be made pp stall by kyurem with a substitute and roost to give a somewhat clear example I had played a match where the opposing kyurem had freeze my heatran on an ice beam and that was absolute ent changed the whole game in short I totally respect your opinion Concerning zygarde, yes the pokemon is very strong but we must not forget that the pokemon was banned mainly because of its power in itself the pokemon is not very strong basic he does not type very hard he has a correct speed but nothing more and has common weaknesses it is especially that he scams a lot of games because of glare but in my opinion in 8th generation many pokémons are able to succeed in check zygarde while being paralyzed like those I mentioned above slowbro landorus clefable mandibuzz etc moreover the pokemon lost the Z moves which could surprise the clefable which clearly hurt him I find that the pokemon would not be too centralizing as it was in 7th generation where there were few pokémons able to check it and once again I don't think it would bring negative to the metagame on the contrary zygarde would allow to have a good big check to heatran, zapdos, zeraora and so on it would also serve as a good alternative to garchomp afterwards and to conclude this would allow to bring novelty to the current metagame which for the moment has not changed since the month of May once again thank you very much for your opinion !!!
Dracovish wasn't weak to Stealth Rock, and it didn't have to worry about making predictions to make the most out of turns since it had no use for any move besides Fishious Rend 99% of the time. Kyurem is one of the most restricting things in the teambuilder on paper, but in practice, getting it on the field safely is a daunting task and once it's there it has 1-2 turns max before getting forced out again. Dracovish wasn't nearly as tricky to make the most out of; all you had to do was slap a Scarf/Band on it and click the blue button in the first slot a few times. It was by far and wide the more broken of the two. And regarding freezes... I understand that it's frustrating, but there isn't much you can do outside of Natural Cure, Aromatherapy/Heal Bell and thawing moves (Scald, Scorching Sands, etc).

(I'm really just repeating M24's points here...)
 
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Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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I want to thank you for your opinion indeed the fact that kyurem is weak in stealth rocks as well as its very bad ice type limit it a lot but you see it is a little bit like dracovish it is a pokemon that does absolutely scandalous damage but very easy to revenge kill and yet the pokemon has been banned the concern I have with kyurem is the fact that it haxx quite often for example freeze with ice beam etc in addition to that the pokemon has a coverage just perfect and tanks very well the attacks there is also the fact that it puts a huge pressure on the teambuilding for example in many of my teams I force myself to play scizor only to counter kyurem indeed he still has some checks but a good number of his pokémons will be made pp stall by kyurem with a substitute and roost to give a somewhat clear example I had played a match where the opposing kyurem had freeze my heatran on an ice beam and that was absolute ent changed the whole game in short I totally respect your opinion Concerning zygarde, yes the pokemon is very strong but we must not forget that the pokemon was banned mainly because of its power in itself the pokemon is not very strong basic he does not type very hard he has a correct speed but nothing more and has common weaknesses it is especially that he scams a lot of games because of glare but in my opinion in 8th generation many pokémons are able to succeed in check zygarde while being paralyzed like those I mentioned above slowbro landorus clefable mandibuzz etc moreover the pokemon lost the Z moves which could surprise the clefable which clearly hurt him I find that the pokemon would not be too centralizing as it was in 7th generation where there were few pokémons able to check it and once again I don't think it would bring negative to the metagame on the contrary zygarde would allow to have a good big check to heatran, zapdos, zeraora and so on it would also serve as a good alternative to garchomp afterwards and to conclude this would allow to bring novelty to the current metagame which for the moment has not changed since the month of May once again thank you very much for your opinion !!!
Could you please use some punctuation like a period? I apologize if English isn't your first language, but the entire post was difficult to read.

Also - Zygarde was ridiculous in not only its offensive potential with Thousand Arrows ignoring immunities, but its bulk also made it difficult to knock out if it gained even just a small amount of momentum. Your argument is also confusing because you make it sound like Zygarde isn't offensively powerful, but somehow it still is?
 
I want to thank you for your opinion indeed the fact that kyurem is weak in stealth rocks as well as its very bad ice type limit it a lot but you see it is a little bit like dracovish it is a pokemon that does absolutely scandalous damage but very easy to revenge kill and yet the pokemon has been banned the concern I have with kyurem is the fact that it haxx quite often for example freeze with ice beam etc in addition to that the pokemon has a coverage just perfect and tanks very well the attacks there is also the fact that it puts a huge pressure on the teambuilding for example in many of my teams I force myself to play scizor only to counter kyurem indeed he still has some checks but a good number of his pokémons will be made pp stall by kyurem with a substitute and roost to give a somewhat clear example I had played a match where the opposing kyurem had freeze my heatran on an ice beam and that was absolute ent changed the whole game in short I totally respect your opinion Concerning zygarde, yes the pokemon is very strong but we must not forget that the pokemon was banned mainly because of its power in itself the pokemon is not very strong basic he does not type very hard he has a correct speed but nothing more and has common weaknesses it is especially that he scams a lot of games because of glare but in my opinion in 8th generation many pokémons are able to succeed in check zygarde while being paralyzed like those I mentioned above slowbro landorus clefable mandibuzz etc moreover the pokemon lost the Z moves which could surprise the clefable which clearly hurt him I find that the pokemon would not be too centralizing as it was in 7th generation where there were few pokémons able to check it and once again I don't think it would bring negative to the metagame on the contrary zygarde would allow to have a good big check to heatran, zapdos, zeraora and so on it would also serve as a good alternative to garchomp afterwards and to conclude this would allow to bring novelty to the current metagame which for the moment has not changed since the month of May once again thank you very much for your opinion !!!
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/kyurem-black-and-zygarde-are-now-ubers.3673491/ Here is a post explaining why zygarde-50% is banned. A quick summary, is that Zygarde-50% can just bullshit through its checks, does not really have any counters since they can all fall after coil's or repeated para's. Thousand arrows is very spammable and has very few pokemon that resist it, and those that do fall to the sub coil glare set. There are very few conistsent pokemon that can check or even counter it. It is restrictive to teambuilding using pokemon that are not so good or fall to zygarde-50% due to them just relying on not getting para-ed like tangrowth, buzzwole, and zarude.
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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This is only my opinion you have the right to disagree with me on the contrary yes but zygarde before a dragon dance does not hit extremely hard but the set choice band hits very hard I would say more than zygarde in general
Sure we could argue Zygarde before a boost isn't the most threatening mon in the tier, but it can easily boost in front of many Pokemon with its superior bulk. In scenarios where the game drags out and Pokemon are being worn down, Zygarde can be threatening even without boosts because, if you directly switch Corviknight into Zygarde for example, you run the risk of being smacked down by Thousand Arrows and taking more damage the next turn. It has access to Dragon Dance and Coil to boost, and then it also now has Scale Shot which can make faster but frailer Pokemon struggle to revenge kill Zygarde. This is ignoring ExtremeSpeed too, or Glare just flat out cutting your Speed in half with a 25% chance of failing to hit Zygarde if youre paralyzed. Glare gives Zygarde extra utility and can help swing the momentum in the Zygarde player's favor too.

The post above has information as to why Zygarde is banned. Considering its presence both offensively and defensively in the current generation and previous generation I feel its banned is justified.
 
Gimmicky (but Good?)
1623976868916.png

At present, the OU meta feels like most of the residents have settled into their given roles; sure, some niche/previously underrated stuff is seeing a good bit of experimentation, but the mainstays feel like they're starting to settle. Well nuts to that. Last week was a nightmare for me irl, so I wanted to have a bit of fun with sets, so I'm kind of bringing back a thing I (sometimes) did back when I mainly followed UU. Basically the idea is to take an already solid mon and make some kind of alteration that significantly changes how they play, and see if I could actually get results. So I've been making offbeat sets for a bunch of them for the past few days, and while some didn't quite pan out (did I say laddering would decrease my stress? Wow my brain is all over the place) these mons were actually helpful. If the title didn't clue you in, yes these sets probably aren't the best for each mon; I acknowledge that.
1623969432494.png

Dragapult @ Choice Band
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Darts
- Phantom Force
- U-turn
- Psychic Fangs/Sucker Punch/Steel Wing

Starting off with the most radically different set, Banded Dragapult's aim was to fix the main issues that prevent DDance Dragapult from being consistent: its lack of immediate power and usually lacking room for non-STAB, meaning any player with a Fairy and Blissey can completely wall it, and Unaware Clef doesn't care at all. That said, Dragon Darts is really strong, and even resists like Heatran can struggle to come in repeatedly on Banded with hazard support. Phantom Force can pick up an unexpected KO on teams lacking Bliss or Ttar, U-turn is great for momentum, and your fourth slot, while rarely utilized, has some options; Steel Wing allows consecutive hits on Clef (but that's it), Psychic Fangs chomps on Pex and Urshifu (especially with Lele support) and does more to Koko and Fini, and Sucker Punch is a fallback option if you really fear HO or need an emergency sweeper answer.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1358640539 (when RNG actually works with you)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1358742088
As you can see in these replays, Band Pult works best as a cleaner; once you soften up/remove bulkier Steels and Fairies Pult becomes exceptionally deadly as a revenge killer. It is definitely niche though; the main obstacle is actually not Fairies like you'd probably assume, but Steel types like Corviknight and Ferrothorn, who can just sit on every hit and can resist or ignore Pult's physical coverage. As such, anti-Steel support is essential if you wish to use Band Pult; I chose to include Zone and Lando, as Zone handles birds and Ferro while Lando smacks every other Steel. Another great partner for Band Pult is Specs Lele, as the two can wear down each other's checks, while Lele's terrain both shields Pult from priority and powers up potential Psychic Fangs to OHKO Urshifu. Band Pult is potentially devastating, but is probably the most gimmicky of these 5 mons.
Band Pult
(That last slot can also go to Zapdos; it depends if you prefer Defog support or a Weavile check. I also thought about Fini, but I didn't want to risk weakening Darts since that's the whole appeal of this set)
1623969458340.png

Slowking @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Scald
- Future Sight
- Dragon Tail/Teleport
- Slack Off/Dragon Tail

FuturePort more or less defines the Slowtwins for its ability to force positioning; however, there are plenty of threats that don't mind a Future Sight, so depending on what mon they bring in your opponent can ironically force your positioning. However, Slowking has one thing that can truly deprive the opponent of choosing what takes Sight- Dragon Tail (I originally wanted to do this with Glowking, but of course it doesn't get DT). While it was a struggle to drop one of the key 4 moves, I ultimately opted to keep Slack Off so King could potentially stay in on something; however, someone more adventurous than me might prefer dropping Slack. It mainly comes down to what kind of team you want; if you drop Teleport, pair King with bulky mons that can afford to hard-switch in. If you drop Slack Off, pair it with offensive mons that can better capitalize on momentum.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1359212112
As shown here, DTail's potential lies in its ability to disrupt your opponent's momentum, and allows it to get small but useful bits of chip on bulky mons like Blissey while potentially lining up their offensive mons to take the full brunt of Sight. Also, phasing is good and it's sad most mons don't have room for it anymore. One welcome surprise I saw in practice (wish I'd saved that replay) is that Tail is able to break Heatran's molten grip, meaning that this King can actually come in on Magma Storm without needing to worry about getting Taunt-trapped.
DT Slowking
1623969476346.png

Tangrowth @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast
- Knock Off

This change isn't quite as flashy as the others, but it does give some unique edges to Tangrowth. As a frequent user of Growth, I've noticed that I don't really use Sleep Powder, mainly because I prefer other statuses against most opponents; Sludge Bomb seemed like the most logical replacement. With Bomb, Tangrowth can apply pressure to most flying types after they've taken a Knock, score some gradual chip against certain annoyances and allow Growth to better check Rillaboom, Buzzwole, opposing Growth and rarer Bulu.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1359825693-0r3qj56tremqglx3mi1dv0jy0hpz4mmpw
Not the most exciting replay, I know, but to those who don't get it; Bomb guaranteed that I'd win any Growth mirror match (especially since they swapped FB for Leech Seed), so they were constantly forced into Torn or Pex- Torn didn't want to eat a poison, but losing its Helmet would mean Pex couldn't keep my Urshifu at bay (especially if Growth went down). While not flashy, Sludge is a good option for Growth if you don't need/want sleep.
SB Tangrowth
1623969500075.png

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed

This is a set I actually picked up from an opponent during this laddering. After just one Iron Defense, Ferro can be a real pain to break through (hence why you keep max SpD investment) especially once it gets Leech Seed off, while Knock Off allows Ferro to still support its team while chunking Ghost types. Boosted Body Press is obviously a pain, but the main benefit is in this set's ability to sit on most physical attackers and gradually wear them down between Seed, Knock and Iron Barbs while taking minimal damage back.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1360444298
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1360449506
While the first replay isn't a standard OU team, it does show off how Ferro can potentially auto-win an end-game, as once Conk goes down Ferro just wins in the hypothetical continuation. In game 2, Body Press lets Ferro OHKO Heatran on the switch (admittedly a high roll), which it otherwise couldn't accomplish even with max Def. Now, the presence of Urshifu does mean Toxapex is ID Ferro's best friend, so this set is best used on defensive or balance teams.
ID Ferro
1623969532881.png

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw/Scale Shot/Outrage
- Stone Edge
- Poison Jab/Fire Fang

So, I saved this set for last because- Scarf Garchomp might be legitimately good, actually. The idea was simply to maximize Garchomp's offensive potential, going all in with dual STAB, Edge for Flying types and Jab for Fairies; even with Adamant, Scarf still gets the guaranteed outspeed on Zeraora, aka the benchmark for any successful Scarfer, while letting Chomp have the full power it needed for some crucial KOs. This set also has a decent amount of flexibility; in terms of Dragon STAB, Scale Shot allows potential greater damage and can make up that Speed in case of Knock Off, while Claw is more consistent and doesn't risk a miss. Outrage is also possible, though I don't like it because you can't safely throw it off until late game. Fire Fang is an option over Jab if you really want to dent Corv (which you can somehow still lose to even when you specifically packs two answers to it), Skarm and Ferro, though you do need Rocks and reliance on RNG with Corv.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1360082490 (admittedly RNG saved me here)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1360084319
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1360126426
This ended up being my most successful team of the bunch, and in large part that was due to ScarfChomp's prowess as a revenge killer and general breaker; one of my few losses was actually to another ScarfChomp. ScarfChomp loves the current offensive state of the meta, since while it does have some consistent checks most are defensive staples that can be pressured easily with the right support, especially Zer and/or Zone (you should stick with one if you aren't blinded by rage for Corv). The few checks it has do mean ScarfChomp is best suited for offense or balance, where you can fit key offensive partners like Zeraora and Fini. ScarfChomp does need some support to function at its peak, but that support is perfectly within reason. Of the sets I've featured here, I feel this is the one that is most likely to be genuinely good.
Scarf Garchomp

Throughout this laddering stint, I noticed a few recurring trends, but I don't want this post getting even more bogged down with all that so I'll save all those notes for later. Even for as stressful as building could be sometimes, I still enjoyed what I got with these sets; besides, being untested is what makes it fun. They may not be the most unstoppable sets ever, but I do think all of these guys have some merit (ok, maybe not BandPult. That one's a primadonna), and maybe someone can come up with an even better team for these sets than I could think up.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
I want to thank you for your opinion indeed the fact that kyurem is weak in stealth rocks as well as its very bad ice type limit it a lot but you see it is a little bit like dracovish it is a pokemon that does absolutely scandalous damage but very easy to revenge kill and yet the pokemon has been banned the concern I have with kyurem is the fact that it haxx quite often for example freeze with ice beam etc in addition to that the pokemon has a coverage just perfect and tanks very well the attacks there is also the fact that it puts a huge pressure on the teambuilding for example in many of my teams I force myself to play scizor only to counter kyurem indeed he still has some checks but a good number of his pokémons will be made pp stall by kyurem with a substitute and roost to give a somewhat clear example I had played a match where the opposing kyurem had freeze my heatran on an ice beam and that was absolute ent changed the whole game in short I totally respect your opinion Concerning zygarde, yes the pokemon is very strong but we must not forget that the pokemon was banned mainly because of its power in itself the pokemon is not very strong basic he does not type very hard he has a correct speed but nothing more and has common weaknesses it is especially that he scams a lot of games because of glare but in my opinion in 8th generation many pokémons are able to succeed in check zygarde while being paralyzed like those I mentioned above slowbro landorus clefable mandibuzz etc moreover the pokemon lost the Z moves which could surprise the clefable which clearly hurt him I find that the pokemon would not be too centralizing as it was in 7th generation where there were few pokémons able to check it and once again I don't think it would bring negative to the metagame on the contrary zygarde would allow to have a good big check to heatran, zapdos, zeraora and so on it would also serve as a good alternative to garchomp afterwards and to conclude this would allow to bring novelty to the current metagame which for the moment has not changed since the month of May once again thank you very much for your opinion !!!
Jesus fucking christ. I can't even begin to understand what you're trying to say. Proper grammar isn't really needed but for the love of Satan, put dots or commas in your post. It makes it less painful to read

At any rate, Kyurem does not restrict the game at all. On paper, it might, but in practice, you are gonna have a lot of trouble getting it in. This metagame in particular needs you to be aggressive and actually take calculated risks. You can't just allow something like Kyurem and respond defensively. That will lose you like three out of five games. There's also the little thing called stealth rock that makes specs Kyurem's life miserable and if your opponent tries to defog, you get a free switch

You can also use defog Corviknight with a bulky water to take on specs Kyurem. The defog Corv set is evd so that it doesn't die to two freeze dries after stealth rock so you can use it to pp stall. You do die to two ice beams but bulky water support would deter ice beam by a lot. This same Corv spread can also be used to pp stall subroost variants because it would barely scratch this metal birb. More importantly, neither of these two pokemon, Corviknight and bulky water, are chosen solely for this role. Corviknight can check grass types and help you pivot around sd Garchomp while Slowking has teleport and Toxapex is Toxapex

Also, I believe that no one else wants to have Zygarde back in the tier. Thousand arrows is just too good of a move which makes its defensive counterplay limited. It can even choose to annoy them with toxic so guys like Buzzwole and Slowbro will have a difficult time against it. Zygarde has counterplay yes but at the same time, it will slowly cripple your team while you're trying to figure out what set it runs. I'm also certain that everyone here has that one nightmare scenario where they outright lost to a Zygrade haxxing its way to a win because of glare paralysis, which is absolute bullshit


View attachment 350285
Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw/Scale Shot/Outrage
- Stone Edge
- Poison Jab/Fire Fang

So, I saved this set for last because- Scarf Garchomp might be legitimately good, actually. The idea was simply to maximize Garchomp's offensive potential, going all in with dual STAB, Edge for Flying types and Jab for Fairies; even with Adamant, Scarf still gets the guaranteed outspeed on Zeraora, aka the benchmark for any successful Scarfer, while letting Chomp have the full power it needed for some crucial KOs. This set also has a decent amount of flexibility; in terms of Dragon STAB, Scale Shot allows potential greater damage and can make up that Speed in case of Knock Off, while Claw is more consistent and doesn't risk a miss. Outrage is also possible, though I don't like it because you can't safely throw it off until late game. Fire Fang is an option over Jab if you really want to dent Corv (which you can somehow still lose to even when you specifically packs two answers to it), Skarm and Ferro, though you do need Rocks and reliance on RNG with Corv.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1360082490 (admittedly RNG saved me here)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1360084319
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1360126426
This ended up being my most successful team of the bunch, and in large part that was due to ScarfChomp's prowess as a revenge killer and general breaker; one of my few losses was actually to another ScarfChomp. ScarfChomp loves the current offensive state of the meta, since while it does have some consistent checks most are defensive staples that can be pressured easily with the right support, especially Zer and/or Zone (you should stick with one if you aren't blinded by rage for Corv). The few checks it has do mean ScarfChomp is best suited for offense or balance, where you can fit key offensive partners like Zeraora and Fini. ScarfChomp does need some support to function at its peak, but that support is perfectly within reason. Of the sets I've featured here, I feel this is the one that is most likely to be genuinely good.
Scarf Garchomp
I have to agree about scarf chomp. The unexpected factor is what makes this set so good. No sane person is instantly gonna assume a Garchomp is scarfed from team preview and I've been using it to support slow but powerful mons like Tapu Bulu or Hydreigon. Getting rid of guys like Koko and especially Dragapult opens up so many possibilities to wreak havoc
 
I have to agree about scarf chomp. The unexpected factor is what makes this set so good. No sane person is instantly gonna assume a Garchomp is scarfed from team preview and I've been using it to support slow but powerful mons like Tapu Bulu or Hydreigon. Getting rid of guys like Koko and especially Dragapult opens up so many possibilities to wreak havoc
Scarf garchomp can be assumed based on your team, and how you are playing it, and scouting to see what item it is. You say scarf chomp is your speed control, well that is going to be assumed from preview "its either scarf drei/bulu or garchomp" and garchomp really has a tough time getting its suprise factor off since a person could just switch out, since a person bringing a garchomp on a dragapult should send red signals "THIS IS SCARF CHOMP". It is bad for a reason, locking yourself into outrage or earthquake is a death sentence, since many Pokémon in the tier can come in on scarf chomp like clefable, landorus-t, skarmory, hippo, slowbro, and more. I would rather use something like dragapult as speed control and use garchomp's viable sets instead.
 
Since WCOP is coming to a close soon want to discuss about somethings I noticed along throughout it.

:ss/weavile:

If you read the post from t045t3r who made a good post talking about Weavile and how an amazing wincondition most notably the Swords Dance set while some gameplays of Choice Band ones as well. Weavile has proven itself to be quite a dangerous threats for many teams alike with an amazing offensive typing, great speed tier, and acccess to priority moves preventing to get revenge killed or even revenge killing itself with Ice Shard. There's no surprise to how dangerous Weavile can be especially when it gets boosted from Swords Dance with very limited switch-ins, all of them which struggle with hazard stacking and Future Sight support so it becomes easy to break past through its own checks. Some teams even experimented with dropping Jolly for Adamant to increase the damage output, and the trade off is not bad as Tornadus-T is now faster, but you are faster than Kartana which is a good deal. One of the main highlights throughout WCOP and easily now one of the Top 10 Pokemon in the tier.

:ss/urshifu-rapid-strike:

Urshifu-R presence is a dominant one all throughout WCOP of how dangerous it is with it's duel stab in Close Combat and the multi hitting attack of Surging Strike is quite formidable to switch into for many teams. A strong dedicated wallbreaker that is hard to switch into even with proper switch-ins like Dragonite, Toxapex, and Tapu Fini gives it a free chance in clicking U-Turn out and bringing in something to take advantage of them, while Future Sight support and hazard stacking makes it even harder to switch into it, and Aqua Jet gives it a nice priority move to make up for its middling speed tier in being able to revenge faster threats. Urshifu-R by far is one of the most potent wallbreakers in the tier that is really hard to switch into and makes it switch-ins easy to get worn down or break past through.

:ss/tapu fini:

Tapu Fini is something itself that got popular throughout WCOP with its great typing being able to check some noticeable threats like Weavile, Urshifu-R, Heatran, Voclarona, and Dragapult, with two great performing sets. Choice Scarf Tapu Fini is by far one of of the most common not only giving teams speed control, but a decent offensive presence, and its ability to shut down defensive Pokemon with Trick is huge for offensive partners like Weavile, Urshifu-R, and Dragapult. The second most common set being Calm Mind with Taunt which makes Tapu Fini a phenomenal win condition in late game as well as breaking past through stall with ease in conjunction with Misty Terrain, and shows how dangerous Tapu Fini is a late game threat.


:ss/slowking-galar:

Galarian Slowking is another Pokemon that rose after it has been declining in usage being able to check the against the likes of Tapu Koko, Kyurem, Heatran, and by far handling Tapu Fini which was dominant throughout WCOP. An amazing ability in Regenerator gives it longevity it desires and wide variety of coverage moves being able to hit different things that it needs to cover for its team. Future Sight is an amazing support move on Galarian Slowking pressuring the opposing side as well hard to switch into it with it's coverage, while supporting strong wallbreakers with it. I feel Galarian Slowking is a lot better pick than Regular Slowking these days despite having Teleport and being able to run Slack Off, but Galarian Slowking covers a lot more and itself is quite threatening and can even run a Calm Mind set.

:ss/landorus-therian: :ss/hippowdon:

These two get a mention together mostly due to how they where seen as Special Defensive sets due to the presence of of Heatran, Volcarona, and Tapu Koko as they can be used to be able to check them for teams while providing Stealth Rocks. While Landorus-T can still be used as a Defensive Wall, its ability to soft check the likes of Heatran and Volcarona for teams, while with Indimidate still gives an edge to be able to check the likes of Zeraora, Garchomp, and Excadrill for teams. Hippowdon on the other hand access to Slack Off makes it reliable into switching into same threats while also being able to switch into Dragapult, though some Dragapults can potentially run Hydro Pump on the last slot in hitting Hippowdon. Hippowdown itself has also been shown in hazard stack offense for its ability with Sand Stream being able to wear down the opposing side being forced to take hazards along with Sandstorm.


:ss/skarmory::ss/mew::ss/ferrothorn:

These three are paired together as premiere spike setters for hazard stacking teams as you pair this with partners that enjoy Spikes wearing down the opposing side such as Sword Dance Weavile, Bulk Up Zeraora, Calm Mind Clefable, Victini, and the list goes on. Skarmory ability to handle many offensive threats such as Kartana, Rillaboom, Garchomp, and Weavile are greatly appreciated in these teams while also are opting to run a bit of Speed in order to be faster than Magnezone which is paired commonly against things that Skarmory tries to cover allowing it to possibly set up an extra layer of spikes or potentially even remove Magnezone once weakened with Body Press. While Ferrothorn itself has seen better days it is still a pretty decent Spike setter with Knock Off removing items, Leech Seed adding more chip to the opposing side and also can cripple seeds for speedier threats with Thunder Wave. Ferrothorn itself also kinda enjoys the prescence of Tapu Fini growing in popularity, though it dislikes getting tricked from Choice Scarf Tapu Fini, and can punish Surging Strikes from Urshifu-R, however it still struggles in handling against Magnezone unlike Skarmory being able to run some speed for it. Mew comes with a lot of utility as a Spike setter with Knock Off it removes Heavy-Duty Boots and Leftovers, while Will-O-Wisp completely negates Leftovers as well in shutting down physical threats. Mew itself saw plentiful of other uses such as the Demon Mew set in fat teams and the occasional Suicide Lead for Hyper Offensive teams, all of these add to why Mew itself is such a good pick currently.

:ss/buzzwole:

Buzzwole is amazing pick for teams since it covers plentiful of offensive threats in one slot being good against the likes of Landorus-T, Garchomp, Rillaboom, Kartana, Weavile, Bisharp, Urshifu-R, and Zeraora alongside with a reliable way to recover with Roost, and resistance to the omniprescent of Knock Off. The role compression in being able to cover offensive threats in one slot is really beneficial for many teams and it itself is not that passive either with a great attack stat and decent choices for coverage Ice Punch hitting Ground-types, Leech Life for additional recovery for fat Psychic-types, Poison Jab for Fairies, and Earthquake hitting the likes of Toxapex, Tapu Koko, and Aegislash. It's ability to take advantage of Future Sight adds into how much of a threat this thing can, while even possibly be running the less common Bulk Up as a decent win condition. The popularity of Buzzwole has grown drastically where the things it beats have adapted to it such as Choice Band Kartana dropping Smart Strike in favor of Aerial Ace in being able to hit Buzzwole hard.

:ss/zeraora: :ss/tapu koko:

These two saw some usage where they have began running set up moves in sacrifice into their pivoting move. Zeraora itself doesn't mind dropping Volt Switch in favorable for something like Toxic in catching off Ground-types that try to switch into it, while also opting in running Bulk Up. Bulk Up itself is an amazing choice though you really won't be clicking it once the opposing Ground-type has been removed or heavily weakened, and this itself let's it be a great wincondition in mid-late games not only does it make it harder to break Zeraora with some boost and its high speed tier making it hard to revenge kill, and with Heavy-Duty Boots avoiding hazard damage making it hard in wearing it down. Tapu Koko though it does miss out from U-Turn, even then Calm Mind itself is a great wincondition itself as well perhaps its best.

Those are some things that caught my attention and all of these have been performing well and will keep on with their usage for how well they have been, would like to hear some thoughts from other users with these Pokemon or anything else they have been using from WCOP, with all that being said have a great day. :blobwizard:
 
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Hello again, since there does not seem to be a lot of discussion, I wanted to take a shot at highlighting a pokemon that I think is very underrated on our current metagame, that being Tapu Bulu, particularly Assault vest Tapu Bulu:

View attachment 349544

Tapu Bulu @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 196 HP / 164 Atk / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Horn Leech
- Focus Punch
- High Horsepower
- Rock Slide

Before I give you my favorite calcs that this set provides, I want to give you a quick overview of what this set is designed to do. I like to think of this set as an answer to the balance teams that I`ve been seeing in the last two weeks in the middle ladder (1500s-1700s) where every single team has a combination of landoT, Heatran, Clef, a defensive bird, most likely corvi or mandi, a Rillaboom, a Tapu Fini and a Dragapult. What this Tapu Bulu set achieves against these kinds of teams, is a defensive switch in to all of these mons (besides brave bird on corvi, toxic on landot and only two switches tops against magma storm/LO CM clef flamethower) and threatens with either big damage or a swing in momentum because of how it neutralizes these threats, while outspeeding even 128 spe Heatran and no speed landoT. Focus punch allows it to threaten Corvi, Mandi, Tran and Ferro on the switch, forcing them to either roost, which if read with another focus punch means death, or attack, which means that they will eat a rock slide/high horsepower and be very weakened the next turn. Horn leech doesnt need much explanation I think, its a great move that guarantees winning the 1v1 against lando and other mons like chomp. Rock slide also allows it to threaten moltres and volc, while high horsepower hits the rest of the tier at least neutral and one shots tran after you switch into it.

Now, I am not really trying to offer this set as an offensive powerhouse, it requires a lot of offensive reading sometimes and if burned is useless. However, where I think this mon really shines is in its capacity to create this opportunities to make the offensive reads by switching in to a lot of the tier and provide grassy terrain support to its team. Now on to the relevant defensive calcs:

(Im not gonna show how good it does againt mons like Rilla, Lando or non-blazekick zera because I dont think its necessary, it absolutely counters them)

If you know the Volcarona on the opposing team is the bulky set, you can switch into it as it QDs, take rocks and a flamethrower the next turn and OHKO with rock slide

+1 0 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 264-312 (80 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

If the Volcarona on the opposing team is the offensive set, you can take a flametrower/fiery dance and OHKO with rock slide

252+ SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 234-276 (70.9 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 188-224 (56.9 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery and trapping damage

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 114-135 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- 59.2% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 170-202 (51.5 - 61.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (this means that if you horn leech in the 1v1 you get to live two, plus u got pult locked into flamethrower)

252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 159-187 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (you have the advantage in this 1v1 even if the chomp reads correctly to go for fire blast on your switch in and hits it both times)

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 109-130 (33 - 39.3%) -- 18.4% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 88-105 (26.6 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (which means that if you are willing to give up your assault vest, you can always switch in comfortably against any kind of fini, including scarf)

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 196 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 130-153 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

136 SpA Life Orb Dracozolt Fire Blast vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 140-166 (42.4 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (you can switch in once into dracozolt and force a switch out with high horsepower)

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 124-148 (37.5 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 196 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 260-307 (78.7 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (but you outspeed it anyways, still relevant because of Trick room)

252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 196 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu in Rain: 147-173 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

there are some other calcs that I didnt mention, including all the offensive ones, but I think this should be enough of a motivation to use this set or maybe tweak it a little bit to your liking, if you are interested in using this mon and dont know how to implement it on a team, I have found some success (peaked 1850s) with this team: https://pokepast.es/c523465f166fdfd0 in which Tapu Bulu provides great defensive answers and a grassy terrain support which is greatly appreciated by a team that would greatly struggle against EQ otherwise and also really makes use of the passive recovery it provides.

I hope I was clear enough on this post and thank you a lot for reading until the end.
I was reading that and had a feeling when I opened the spoiler, the first calc would be against bulkarona, haha!

Have been seeing a surprising level of Bulu, I guess it is a bulkier Rillaboom with a secondary typing that is a double edged sword. Could you please expand a bit more on why you prefer assault vest to other items? I have observed that the aggressive sets tend to cover similar threats, except obvious ones like fire and flying type special attackers. Also, in my experience horn leech AV sounds great on paper but is remarkably easy for any common team to play around, so it makes keeping your Bulu in the critical >70% HP threshold very hard!

The aggressive sets don't need to keep Bulu's hp high to check things, as it threatens 2hko's on some of OU's most common switch ins like Skarmory/melmetal/ferrothorn.

:Volcarona:

I also wanted to touch on Bulkarona, which I believe is OU's biggest set-up sweeper threat right now. If you are playing a game against an opponent who does not have a heatran/garchomp/tyranitar/CM fini and sometimes dragonite, it really feels like you have a massive edge.

Has anybody else been experimenting with the heavy physically defensive investments? I peaked at 4 on the OU ladder primarily on the back of bulkarona, currently sitting at approx 10th-20th over last 20 or so battles (1947 rating as I write this). And this is on a team that had a lot of arbitrary restrictions/limitations! I did see another player Steez Ibanez with a max def bulkarona, and it was just as hard to play against as it is easy to play with a bulkarona.

The spreads are either:

- 196 HP / 248+ Def / 64 Spe : This is the critical 252 speed option, it can't take certain hits like invested b2b plasma fists unless you get a lucky burn, tho it survives banded aqua jet from Urshifu comfortably, and outspeeds tornadus-therian at +1 and most scarfers at +2

- 248 HP / 248+ Def / 12 SpD : This is the dragonite slayer and is the most reliable melmetal check I have ever seen, as it is substantially more threatening than a skarm/corviknight. Can take hits like 0Atk dual wingbeat (with a massive 51% chance of a burn!). It’s also impossible for invested dragonite to OHKO you without a boost.

Link to team:
https://pokepast.es/be02e3bb5e3bdf95


Restrictions:
- Type diversity, no repeated types
- Item diversity, no repeated items
- Limit max 1x pokemon with 600+ BST
- Minimum 1x pokemon needs to be from UU or BL
- Limit of 2x Pokémon from top 10
- Breedable pokemon / no legendary or mythical

perhaps most important, is that Bulkarona absolutely feasts on most trending meta threats right now. Here’s a quick list

- Buzzswole needs to run a rock move, or alternatively toxic to cripple rona. Both moves are otherwise passive and open it up to not performing in other match ups

- Urshifu is not a counter and cannot switch in to any move except flamethrower

- Fini is the only trending Pokémon that can beat Rona, and that’s if it’s running calm mind

- Weavile loses to bulkarona even at +2, in other words, bulkarona is actually a counter that switches in!

- the fast electric legendaries barely threaten Bulkarona, an invested plasma fists might be the closest thing to a threat.

- Landorus being more SpD inclined is a concern, tho the threshold to weaken it to is approx 60%, very achievable on a Pokémon that comes into play very often in a match.

- Slowking loses to bulkarona almost 100% of the time. The main thing to look out for is a scald crit doing approx 70%, as you need to get to +6 boosts to reliably 2hko Slowking. Very easy to insure against the scald crit once you hit about +3, just roost to always be above 70%

- Toxapex is trending with mixed defensive sets, that is a slight problem, tho it cannot threaten bulkarona back either. A little bit of a stalemate, so you’ll need to be able to capitalize on that
 
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TailGlowVM

Now 100% more demonic
Full Team Example (including some building restrictions)
Link to team:
https://pokepast.es/be02e3bb5e3bdf95


Restrictions:
- Type diversity, no repeated types
- Item diversity, no repeated items
- Limit max 1x pokemon with 600+ BST
- Minimum 1x pokemon needs to be from UU or BL
- Limit of 2x Pokémon from top 10
- Breedable pokemon / no legendary or mythical
Why does that team feature specially defensive Skarmory? People already explained to you in the VR thread that it loses to all the physical attackers you can usually check and beats precisely no relevant special attackers. Sure, it is a metal bird that sets up hazards, but what's the point of a defensive entry hazard setter that can't switch into anything to actually set up the hazards?

Also, a bit of advice: there are a couple more trending Pokemon that do have more favourable matchups against Volcarona, namely Dragonite, which can just switch in and set up alongside, and specially defensive Hippowdon, which takes hits reasonably well from it and can click Toxic on it, unless you have Safeguard.
 
1623969432494.png

Dragapult @ Choice Band
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Darts
- Phantom Force
- U-turn
- Psychic Fangs/Sucker Punch/Steel Wing

Starting off with the most radically different set, Banded Dragapult's aim was to fix the main issues that prevent DDance Dragapult from being consistent: its lack of immediate power and usually lacking room for non-STAB, meaning any player with a Fairy and Blissey can completely wall it, and Unaware Clef doesn't care at all. That said, Dragon Darts is really strong, and even resists like Heatran can struggle to come in repeatedly on Banded with hazard support. Phantom Force can pick up an unexpected KO on teams lacking Bliss or Ttar, U-turn is great for momentum, and your fourth slot, while rarely utilized, has some options; Steel Wing allows consecutive hits on Clef (but that's it), Psychic Fangs chomps on Pex and Urshifu (especially with Lele support) and does more to Koko and Fini, and Sucker Punch is a fallback option if you really fear HO or need an emergency sweeper answer.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1358640539 (when RNG actually works with you)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1358742088
As you can see in these replays, Band Pult works best as a cleaner; once you soften up/remove bulkier Steels and Fairies Pult becomes exceptionally deadly as a revenge killer. It is definitely niche though; the main obstacle is actually not Fairies like you'd probably assume, but Steel types like Corviknight and Ferrothorn, who can just sit on every hit and can resist or ignore Pult's physical coverage. As such, anti-Steel support is essential if you wish to use Band Pult; I chose to include Zone and Lando, as Zone handles birds and Ferro while Lando smacks every other Steel. Another great partner for Band Pult is Specs Lele, as the two can wear down each other's checks, while Lele's terrain both shields Pult from priority and powers up potential Psychic Fangs to OHKO Urshifu. Band Pult is potentially devastating, but is probably the most gimmicky of these 5 mons.
Band Pult
(That last slot can also go to Zapdos; it depends if you prefer Defog support or a Weavile check. I also thought about Fini, but I didn't want to risk weakening Darts since that's the whole appeal of this set)
I have also been trying this out myself, if in a bit of a different team. My idea was to use this set in a voltturn team, since specs dragapult tends to just uturn out more than half the time, it seemed reasonable to invest into making those u-turns stronger. So banded pult doesn't necessarily have to be used as a breaker, it's also quite the decent pivot(much better than specs, even if specs is more reliable at breaking due to better coverage).

I would also say that using flamethrower or fire blast as the last move has several merits: uninvested flamethrower still 2hkos ferro and skarm, while fire blast 2hkos melmetal and has a chance of 2hkoing 88 spdef corvi after rocks if it isnt running lefties(which seems to be on the decline lately from my personal experience). using such special moves can also serve to hide the fact that you are band until you are comfortable you can do the most damage. This also isn't pushing it into 4mss that hard as steel wing just kinda sucks, psychic fangs are ok but don't really have synergy with infiltrator and sucker punch is best for opposing pult but it has quite a low chance to actually OHKO. If you are going to go this route, you will probably want to be naive instead of jolly tho.

All in all banded dragapult is very cool to use and I would definitely recommend people to try it out.
 
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IPF

sundown
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Why does that team feature specially defensive Skarmory? People already explained to you in the VR thread that it loses to all the physical attackers you can usually check and beats precisely no relevant special attackers. Sure, it is a metal bird that sets up hazards, but what's the point of a defensive entry hazard setter that can't switch into anything to actually set up the hazards?

Also, a bit of advice: there are a couple more trending Pokemon that do have more favourable matchups against Volcarona, namely Dragonite, which can just switch in and set up alongside, and specially defensive Hippowdon, which takes hits reasonably well from it and can click Toxic on it, unless you have Safeguard.
I'll be real with you the amount of hate/criticism being directed at this guy doesn't feel right. I don't agree with him on his assessment of Primarina in the metagame, but his team worked and did well. Who are you to tell him what he should be changing, that too in such a condescending tone? Let the man live a little.
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
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OU Leader
As a general idea when it comes to posting, it's best to be respectful to other posters and put any personal differences aside in the OU subforum. I do not think TailGlowVM intended to be condescending with his criticism, but I also understand why IPF wanted to set things straight I believe we all have the same end-goal of discussing and enjoying the metagame though, so let's just focus on that moving forward. Thanks to all three of you -- Ctann included -- for your contributions to the thread :blobthumbsup:
 
Well, I said I’d address these points later, so here ya go. During my recent laddering stint, I had a few recurring observations regarding the current meta. While I can't say much about high ladder (because this stint has shown me I'm not getting above the 1500s. It's just not happening), these trends were rather frequent during building and battling. Plus a lot of my opponents were 1400-1500+, so I imagine they have some idea what they’re doing. Not sure what might’ve caused these trends (I don't follow WCoP), this is just recapping my own experiences on the ladder.

Offense is Dominant
1624147091022.png

I honestly don't think I've ever found building as stressful as I did during this stint, not because I was running a gimmicky mon on each team but because of how many threats you basically need to account for while building. ausma previously said that offense was dominating the meta right now, and I believe it; throughout this experiment, a bunch of teams of mine got scrapped or stalled in development because I couldn’t figure out how to fit everything that would prevent a turn 1 loss. Sure, each of the current powerhouses have definitive answers, but they also synergize with each other fairly well and can answer each other’s checks, such as how the Ground types needed to keep Zeraora at bay can’t stand up to partners like Rillaboom, Urshifu and Weavile, while Zeraora can smoke the Steelbirds that keep those three in check (plus Pex in the case of Fu and Weav). It’s not overwhelming to the point of being broken, but things have been a bit more tense than previously.

Heatran
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However, the single most oppressive mon in the builder for me is Heatran, because you need something that can repeatedly come in on Magma Storm and not be ruined by Taunt+Toxic. Tran is the reason why I use Fini on almost every team, because it's the one mon that can always come in on Tran safely (thanks to Misty Surge) and force it out; nearly everything else gets ruined by Toxic, smacked by Earth Power or can only take one Storm. The thing about Heatran is that it isn’t scary as a threat in its own right but as an enabler, as its focus is simply “get as much chip as possible and let offensive teammates go crazy”. By TauntTrapping Blissey, for instance, Bliss can end up very low even if she wins the 1v1, making threats like Dragapult and Volcorona much harder to check. Heatran is scary in terms of building because it doesn’t even need to KO a mon to perform well- if it weakens a bulky mon to the point where stuff it can’t be a switch into something else, Heatran has done its job.

And yet I can't say Tran is broken since it has plenty of offensive counterplay, and tbh it isn’t quite as bad in practice as on paper. The offensive meta is a double-edged sword for Tran; it makes Tran’s chip- racking very effective, but it also means many Tran partners might not be good at taking hits, so getting forced out might be very bad for said partners. There are also a few solid defensive options: while Fini is the only totally safe switch in, Hydreigon, Dragonite and Hippowdon are also able to take Magma Storm repeatedly and threaten it out. Hydreigon’s 3 attacks set takes under half from Storm + chip and can OHKO back with EP while ignoring Tran's own EP, not even needing LO for that if Heatran is offensive, and then Roost off the damage later. I also like Drei as a check because it guaranteed outspeeds (meaning Tran can’t afford to predict like it can with Hippo or bulky Dnite), its Ground move isn’t weakened by Grassy Terrain and it isn’t crippled as much by Knock Off and Toxic as the other two since you’re not relying on it as a general wall. Dragonite packs Ice Beam for EQ switch ins, blanks EP and can get around Toxic if it’s Heal Bell, but is vulnerable to Knock from Tran’s partners. Hippo can make progress by getting up Rocks or inflicting Toxic, but of the 4 is the most vulnerable to Toxic as well as the most passive. SpD Lando can work- if there’s no Rocks. If there are, max SpD Lando still gets 2HKOed by Magma Storm, which is an issue since offensive Tran outspeeds it. Bottom line, Tran is something you need to account for, but it does have plenty of answers in practice.

Defoggers in Decline?
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You may have noticed in my previous post that several of my teams lack Defog, and throughout this journey I was far from alone. If an opposing team lacked Corviknight, 4 out of 5 times they were going sans removal; even adjusting for sample oddities, it seems that removal is falling out of favor among the meta, mostly on offense, aka the most common teamstyle right now. In addition to Defog being less common, only a handful of Defoggers seem to have a substantial presence in the meta rn.

There are a few possible reasons; first, between accounting for threats and building offensive cores I often felt a Defogger was an awkward fit and it was just easier to go without, and other builders may also find it hard to justify giving up a valuable team slot to a dedicated Defogger; only 3 OU mons can do both, 2 of which don’t run removal commonly anymore and the other is Excadrill. True, needing separate slots for setting and removal has been a serious factor in team building since Gen 4, but the offensive bent of the current meta means that giving a slot to a Defogger instead of a check to one of the powerhouses can auto-lose you the game. Corv’s continued prominence likely stems from it being one of the few Defoggers that can answer many of these attackers defensively, meaning giving a slot to it isn’t going to break your team.

Second, certain Defoggers are largely passive, which is not a good fit for the current meta, as the scary breakers can often force Defoggers out before they can actually do their job. Being a good Defogger in this meta basically requires the ability to generate momentum, giving Corv another benefit over some other options. Zapdos is the other Defogger I noticed frequently, and I doubt it’s a coincidence that Zap always seems to run Volt as it's Electric STAB now. I’ve also heard some decent things about Torn and Washtom, two more who can keep up momentum. The need to contribute more to a team’s momentum may also explain why several potential Defoggers forgo it, hence why you no longer see it on stuff like Skarm, Scarf Lando or Scarf Kartana, since having to hard switch afterwards is undesirable.

The four I listed are also able to put up solid offensive pressure, as the latter three can still throw off powerful STAB attacks or great coverage like Heat Wave and Knock Off, while Corviknight packs Body Press, which allows it to mount offensive pressure by investing in its Def stat. Compare this to Mandibuzz, whose passivity can allow a horde of threatening attackers in, especially special attackers who don’t care about Foul Play like Volcarona and Fini, and even less immediately threatening mons like Clefable can force it out.

Third, the offensive focus of the meta might mean offense teams are discouraged from running Defog so as not to clear their own hazards; in a fast-paced meta, every bit of chip can mean the difference between securing a KO or getting OHKOed back, so it might just be too risky to clear your own hard-lain hazards. I remember one game where I mainly lost because my Zeraora’s Knock Off got a low roll, allowing Specs Dragapult to KO me. This faster pace also means that getting Rocks up to begin with can require a lot of careful positioning on your part, so I know from experience that having to do that multiple times because of your own Defog can be exhausting.

Pivot Chaining and Pivot Spam
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For the other three things I’ve mentioned, there was one constant I noticed when thinking back on them: all three were as notable as they were because of pivoting. Despite the lesser popularity of Defog, pivoting seems just as popular as ever, as many offensive teams I've faced love chaining together pivots to constantly force the momentum of the battle. These pivot chains are, imo, a main reason why offense is dominating right now, and it’s a key reason why so many offensive threats can feel overwhelming. If you look at the best offensive mons, many of them have some option for pivoting, which can make them tricky to deal with when paired together. Pivoting additionally allows defensive mons like Corviknight and Blissey to maintain solid footing in the meta, since in addition to taking hits from many of those key threats their low speed allows them to get teammates in safely. However, Corv in particular highlighted an odder trend on the ladder: pivot spam.

Basically, pivot spam is when a mon almost exclusively clicks their pivot move. I noticed this weird trend quite a few times, as the pivot would exclusively click their pivoting move until late in the battle when any serious answers to them were gone; this was a big reason why I had so much difficulty dealing with Corviknight throughout this experience, even with dedicated answers like Zeraora on every team. And the thing is that this approach- actually worked for these opponents. Corv’s pivot antics meant my Corv answers were constantly getting chipped and were often forced to hard switch out. U-turn in particular is hard to punish, and most mons that run Helmet can’t block Volt Switch (some prominent Helmet users are weak to it). The only mons that can really punish both are Garchomp and Helmet Lando. The limited punishment for this kind of spam means that once a pivot team grabs the momentum, it can be really difficult to swing the momentum in your favor; not OP since you can catch onto pivoting patterns if you're patient enough, but it is rather annoying for someone like me.

Small Things
  • Rillaboom: Lately, I've noticed a lot more SD Rilla compared to Band Rilla, and having been on the receiving end I can understand why. Once Rilla gets set up, there's only a handful of mons that can actually come into it safely (Growth, Buzz, and Dnite)- even Corv and Skarm get 2HKOed by Superpower starting at +2! With Rilla, you basically have to go into any offensive answer in as it sets up. Rilla might not be top dog anymore, but it is not something to be taken lightly.
  • Magnezone: Given how dominant Corv is on the ladder, Magnezone has been surprisingly scarce. Not sure why; maybe it's just that most powerhouses can force it out, making Zone expendable in a lot of match ups (which was occasionally my experience using Zone). The tendency of some Corv to pivot spam also doesn't help with that issue. Then again, given my previous remarks about Hippo, it's possible Zone is suddenly going to surge in usage.
 
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Why does that team feature specially defensive Skarmory? People already explained to you in the VR thread that it loses to all the physical attackers you can usually check and beats precisely no relevant special attackers. Sure, it is a metal bird that sets up hazards, but what's the point of a defensive entry hazard setter that can't switch into anything to actually set up the hazards?

Also, a bit of advice: there are a couple more trending Pokemon that do have more favourable matchups against Volcarona, namely Dragonite, which can just switch in and set up alongside, and specially defensive Hippowdon, which takes hits reasonably well from it and can click Toxic on it, unless you have Safeguard.
just a heads up, the play style with specially defensive skarmory might not be what you think. It’s just a switch in to things like lele and clefable, does just the right damage to something like a fini, galarian Slowking or landorus, or a Pokémon that can survive a few miscellaneous sets from multiple other Pokémon. Sometimes taking 3 special hits instead of 2 is a big deal!

there’s a few reasons why I use specially defensive skarmory. The main one is because of the team building restrictions, it was the best steel and best flying that just works with the rest of the team.

landorus-t and tornadus-t couldn’t be used, premium steels like heatran couldn’t be used, whilst Ferrothorn was amazing but cost me valuable presence whenever I was against any fire type, flamethrower clefable or urshifu.

Corviknight was far too passive, and you feel like in some games it doesn’t achieve progress if it faints too early. Meanwhile if I ran an offensive body press sweeper, it takes away the opportunity to check or chip threats for 3 other wincons. Skarm does just enough most of the time. Whirlwind has utility verse HO and similar teams, which can otherwise overwhelm you with one misplay

I do notice that most people on smogon place very high value on how many times a Pokémon can be used throughout a match, and longevity. For example corviknight with specially defensive investment is a lot more “reliable” over the course of a match.

I value immediate performance much better than reliability, however the play style is much faster, and aggressive, than the average player. For example I watch a lot of matches on ladder, and I can see why a lot of people are stuck in the 1700s when they make simple misplays like letting a key threat heal back up, or leaving an opening for a key threat to come in and get a free turn to heal, instead of just sacking their offensive Pokémon or whatever it is, on that turn (as that threat is now easier to deal with).
the other thing that smogon doesn’t seem to value much, is the ability to reduce or remove a key threats presence. For example a Pokémon that can reliably trade 1 for 1, or heavily weaken 2 threats, at the very least, like a victini or primarina, has massive value in actual games, because you can set the tempo for the rest of the game with the 5v5 thereafter.

reliability isn’t as critical to check threats, I just need enough presence to get critical threats to certain thresholds. For example of a landorus-t is in front of my skarm, getting it chipped 10-20% assists in either Rillaboom, Garchomp or Volcarona becoming a Wincon. A flinch or two on a galarian Slowking turns it’s flamethrower from a 3hko into a 4hko or 5hko, whilst putting it into range for primarina to easily knock out (or gives skarm more turns if it’s forced to switch out)

in any case, I fully understand why some Pokémon or sets might not be considered good, including why primarina is now lower ranked despite my nomination for a higher rank. But I was putting more value on performance at a Pokémon just getting it’s job done, whereas I can see how smogon VR has to be for everyone and all play styles. In skarmory case, it just does what it needs to do in most games. In Primarinas case, I still consider it A grade, at least in the current meta, as it just simply breaks things whilst needing no support. I even ran it on a triple fairies threat fun team, and it was better at breaking meta threats than Lele and koko put together, a lot of meta teams are running defensive Pokémon like clefable, hippodown and corviknight, that cannot deal with it at all.

in regards to Volcarona, the bulky sets can choose between safeguard/psychic/gigadrain/bug Buzz and even U turn as the final move, as QD/flamethrower/roost are essential. Fini can beat even a giga drain set if it’s healthy, dragonite has a 51% chance to lose to it (or become a setup fodder itself if it gets burnt after the KO), unless it’s healthy enough to set up next to it, hippodown is okay but not great because the threshold is about 50% and it’s easy to get that with support. In my team you can see the support for bulkarona primarily comes from trick Galatian Slowking, by tricking black sludge onto a blissey or hippodown (both enjoy coming in on thunder waves) they become more manageable. My favourite part about bulkarona is that it’s almost never dead weight because even if it’s not going to pill it’s weight offensively, it can come in on a lot of Pokémon and threaten burns/a sweep.

please excuse the wall of text and thanks for reading :) . Please advise if you want more replays or more explanations, or better explanations!
 
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just a heads up, the play style with specially defensive skarmory might not be what you think. It’s just a switch in to things like lele and clefable, does just the right damage to something like a fini, galarian Slowking or landorus, or a Pokémon that can survive a few miscellaneous sets from multiple other Pokémon. Sometimes taking 3 special hits instead of 2 is a big deal!

there’s a few reasons why I use specially defensive skarmory. The main one is because of the team building restrictions, it was the best steel and best flying that just works with the rest of the team.

landorus-t and tornadus-t couldn’t be used, premium steels like heatran couldn’t be used, whilst Ferrothorn was amazing but cost me valuable presence whenever I was against any fire type, flamethrower clefable or urshifu.

Corviknight was far too passive, and you feel like in some games it doesn’t achieve progress if it faints too early. Meanwhile if I ran an offensive body press sweeper, it takes away the opportunity to check or chip threats for 3 other wincons. Skarm does just enough most of the time. Whirlwind has utility verse HO and similar teams, which can otherwise overwhelm you with one misplay

I do notice that most people on smogon place very high value on how many times a Pokémon can be used throughout a match, and longevity. For example corviknight with specially defensive investment is a lot more “reliable” over the course of a match.

I value immediate performance much better than reliability, however the play style is much faster, and aggressive, than the average player. For example I watch a lot of matches on ladder, and I can see why a lot of people are stuck in the 1700s when they make simple misplays like letting a key threat heal back up, or leaving an opening for a key threat to come in and get a free turn to heal, instead of just sacking their offensive Pokémon or whatever it is, on that turn (as that threat is now easier to deal with).
the other thing that smogon doesn’t seem to value much, is the ability to reduce or remove a key threats presence. For example a Pokémon that can reliably trade 1 for 1, or heavily weaken 2 threats, at the very least, like a victini or primarina, has massive value in actual games, because you can set the tempo for the rest of the game with the 5v5 thereafter.

reliability isn’t as critical to check threats, I just need enough presence to get critical threats to certain thresholds. For example of a landorus-t is in front of my skarm, getting it chipped 10-20% assists in either Rillaboom, Garchomp or Volcarona becoming a Wincon. A flinch or two on a galarian Slowking turns it’s flamethrower from a 3hko into a 4hko or 5hko, whilst putting it into range for primarina to easily knock out (or gives skarm more turns if it’s forced to switch out)
Skarmory is way more passive than corv, it lacks u-turn and lacks pressure which helps with keeping up hazards. Even with sp def lele and clef can still beat it, as people have shown, it is inferior defensively than corv, which is why corv is used so much. Whirlwind is just a temporary stop, you eat a +1 thunder/thunderbolt from clef, now you are low, forced to roost and praying they aren't phased into the wrong teammate and skarmory without phys def falls to many common threats such as weavile, kartana, and urshifu-r. Also without u-turn you are freely letting heatran come in which corviknight can use to gain an advantageous position. Maybe you need more explaining about why sp def skarm is not good.
 
Skarmory is way more passive than corv, it lacks u-turn and lacks pressure which helps with keeping up hazards. Even with sp def lele and clef can still beat it, as people have shown, it is inferior defensively than corv, which is why corv is used so much. Whirlwind is just a temporary stop, you eat a +1 thunder/thunderbolt from clef, now you are low, forced to roost and praying they aren't phased into the wrong teammate and skarmory without phys def falls to many common threats such as weavile, kartana, and urshifu-r. Also without u-turn you are freely letting heatran come in which corviknight can use to gain an advantageous position. Maybe you need more explaining about why sp def skarm is not good.
Good points, I’ll try and explain:

- u turn is good for getting positive matchups, whirlwind is good for breaking negative matchups, notably whirlwind requires a little more prediction to be useful when used regularly. They are similar, and either can work. Whilst corviknight is “better”, skarmory can be “enough”, as sometimes you just need to achieve a target, and not necessarily a KO. Being “enough” in this case because Skarm differentiates by access to a hazard setting move

- Lele and clefairy can beat it, however going back to the “enough” comment, it’s enough for me, as the presence of a Slowking-G disincentivizes the usage of thunderbolt by either fairy on the switch. Also I don’t whirlwind a clefairy at +1, you iron head it, and even without a flinch, it’s in range of wood hammer on the next turn, or a free set up opportunity if you want to risk it.

- losing to physical attackers is a big deal when you need multiple defensive answers, you’ll notice with the offensive team spread, It really doesn’t matter if skarm loses to Weavile or urshifu or whatever.

- you’re right that heatran comes in for free, tho you suggested u turn can get out of the bad matchup, well whirlwind on the switch achieves a similar result, tho as commented before it’s more prediction reliant

in short , it’s understandable spdef skarmory is bad with traditional metrics , tho it’s good enough for some team spreads.. anyway what’s everyone’s thoughts on bulkarona?
 
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Gomi

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Jesus christ, why is this dude using Spdef Skarmory such a big deal? It does what he wants it to do that Corviknight cannot, which is set spikes whilst checking lele CM clef ok enough in the short term. If he's had success with it and he's happy with it, then let it be. He's given an incredibly in depth post (another while i was typing this) on why he used it the way he did and prodding at it by saying it doesn't do things it does do (temporarily checking CM Clef and checking Lele) or its worse than something that would objectively fail to preform the role he wants (corviknight) is so backwards to me, especially in such a dismissively passive aggressive manner.
The guy clearly at least vaguely knows what he's doing even if I don't really agree with him saying its effective. He's not arguing its better than the main set or anything. There's no reason to insist he just needs to be convinced the thing that works for him is shit, or at very least reccomend something that actually preforms a similar role (ferro mew)
Sorry if this came off as ranty
 

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