Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Ctann]

Just a thought experiment query here, what’s the optimal 3 types Blaziken can run to cover as many top threats as possible...

Assuming you had to weight each threat based on usage.

weighting means that if it’s a landorus-t, it carries significantly higher weight than a dragonite, for example. Clefable would have a higher weight than Urshifu, etc.

List of most common moves:

- Fighting type / HJK, Close combat
- Fire type / Blaze kick, flare blitz, Fire punch
- Ground type / Earthquake
- Dark type / Knock off
- Electric type / Thunder punch
- Rock type / Stone edge , rock slide

if there are any obvious ones I’m missing, please slot them in!

scenario: Blaziken is at +2, the Pokémon has been just switched in on the same turn, as a check. Stealth rock is up as the hazard. The check is otherwise healthy and running its most common spread that usually checks it (for example clefable would be unaware 252/252+ bold).

edit: Blaziken has LO and is jolly 252 Atk (so dragapult will take a hit first)

Edit2: assume something like Heatran, which isn’t a traditional check, bout would check a hypothetical fire/dark/electric for example, is running its most common set.

obviously the best spread is based on the rest of your team, but this is just a curious thought experiment

it might be assumed that a mix with knock off or earthquake + 1STAB + 1 optimal coverage option might be best, but I have no idea to be honest ...

 

[julian113]

Just a thought experiment query here, what’s the optimal 3 types Blaziken can run to cover as many top threats as possible...

Assuming you had to weight each threat based on usage.

weighting means that if it’s a landorus-t, it carries significantly higher weight than a dragonite, for example. Clefable would have a higher weight than Urshifu, etc.

List of most common moves:

- Fighting type / HJK, Close combat
- Fire type / Blaze kick, flare blitz, Fire punch
- Ground type / Earthquake
- Dark type / Knock off
- Electric type / Thunder punch
- Rock type / Stone edge , rock slide

if there are any obvious ones I’m missing, please slot them in!

scenario: Blaziken is at +2, the Pokémon has been just switched in on the same turn, as a check. Stealth rock is up as the hazard. The check is otherwise healthy and running its most common spread that usually checks it (for example clefable would be unaware 252/252+ bold).

edit: Blaziken has LO and is jolly 252 Atk (so dragapult will take a hit first)

Edit2: assume something like Heatran, which isn’t a traditional check, bout would check a hypothetical fire/dark/electric for example, is running its most common set.

obviously the best spread is based on the rest of your team, but this is just a curious thought experiment

it might be assumed that a mix with knock off or earthquake + 1STAB + 1 optimal coverage option might be best, but I have no idea to be honest ...

I think the main appeal of blaziken (other than speed boost obv) is still its ability to hit every relevant steel type for super effective stab. The last slot is what blaziken has trouble with. Earthquake definitely isn't an option for your situation, because it only hits pex, so I'm pretty sure that sd stabs and knock would be best, since knock off hits pult, slowtwins, victini, and removes dnite's boots. Everything in relevant usage other than pex and fini is hit by that combo. Thunder punch is probably the most common, but it doesn't hit bulky waters hard enough anyway. Dual chop, while ridiculously uncommon, surprises dnite, breaks sashes on frail mons, and still hits pult, so it could be added to the list, since rock slide is there. Btw anyone running fire punch needs to see a therapist.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

I think the main appeal of blaziken (other than speed boost obv) is still its ability to hit every relevant steel type for super effective stab. The last slot is what blaziken has trouble with. Earthquake definitely isn't an option for your situation, because it only hits pex, so I'm pretty sure that sd stabs and knock would be best, since knock off hits pult, slowtwins, victini, and removes dnite's boots. Everything in relevant usage other than pex and fini is hit by that combo. Thunder punch is probably the most common, but it doesn't hit bulky waters hard enough anyway. Dual chop, while ridiculously uncommon, surprises dnite, breaks sashes on frail mons, and still hits pult, so it could be added to the list, since rock slide is there. Btw anyone running fire punch needs to see a therapist.

Blaziken main appeal is a power house on screens or HO. After a speed boost and swords dance it can be stopped by very little besides its poor longetvity and its poor initial speed. It is a great breaker and opens holes for its teammates like sd garchomp to take advantage of weakened slowbro and landorus-t. Choice band is another option found on more balance teams which functions as a breaker as well but its poor longetivity is an issue and having to be paired with future sight support to force any progress on slowbro, toxapex, and landorus-t teams without nuking itself.

 

[xXxJenniferxXx]

So I thought I would do something interesting that I don't see often in OU metagame threads, and instead pose a few questions about Generation 8 OU over its whole lifespan and I'd love to hear some of your responses to them! The responses might bring to light some interesting, unexplored aspects of the metagame into focus.

Question #1: What is your favorite thing about Generation 8's OU?

Question #2: What is your least favorite thing about Generation 8's OU?

Question #3: If you could pick one Pokemon as rising in usage from a lower-tier over the next few months into OU, which one would you pick?

Edit: (The mods have asked that Ubers retesting discussion be avoided unless it's pressing, so if you're going to reply to my post template, please only answer Questions 1-3 and not 4 unless there's something really pressing that you think the metagame needs as ausma stated in his post below mine).
----------------
Question #4: If there was one Pokemon in Ubers that you could possibly consider as being testable or even healthy in OU, which one would you pick?

My Answer to Question #1: The removal of Hidden Power.

I've never liked Hidden Power as a move, even with the power nerf that it got a while back before it was removed entirely (the one exception being running Technician Roserade when Hidden Power was at base 60 power). I've always felt that it made a lot of Pokemon feel less unique competitively and that instead of encouraging experimenting with more niche Pokemon to counteract certain playstyles, it would encourage simply slapping HP coverage onto established and extremely common Pokemon (*cough*, Landorus-T running Hidden Power Ice for other Landorus-T, anyone?). So I'm glad that now instead of just slapping a Hidden Power onto a metagame staple like that, people are now exploring other options and it's really cool!

My Answer to Question #2: The removal of pursuit.

While I don't like Pursuit myself, I feel like it's made a lot of people (admittedly myself included) a lot more lackadaisical about how when they switch Pokemon out during a bad match-up. It's also made Ghost-type offense absolutely bonkers (which I don't mind in some regards, as it allows me to find niches for some of my favorite hyper niche Normal-type Pokemon favorites), but it's invalidated a lot of the "planning ahead" aspects involved with removing certain threats that you see in the Team Builder.

My Answer to Question #3: Blacephalon.

I think this Pokemon will eventually move up from UUBL and become a bonafide OU mon once the metagame becomes a little more hospitable because it has some absolutely fantastic traits. 151 Special Attack with base 107 speed and a fantastic Fire / Ghost Offensive STAB combo is insane. Its bulk is pitiful, but it's also not completely shut down by Special walls like many others because it has a fantastic and VERY overlooked base 127 Attack stat.

My Answer to Question #4:

Giratina-Origin should be tested in OU. Now before you laugh me out of the room, let me give some context and precedent that makes me feel like Giratina-Origin should be tested in OU.

- Giratina-Origin has a lot of the same problems that Zamazenta-Crowned had that allowed Zama-C to be tested in OU, but Giratina has these to a much greater degree that I feel would at least be worth testing. Giratina-Origin is far slower (base 90), doesn't have an ability that boosts its bulk, cannot use an item other than Griseous Orb and doesn't have any recovery moves other than Rest to offset the lack of Leftovers, and its offenses are far more manageable (120 Attack and Special Attack). In addition to this, Giratina-O's defensive typing is nowhere near as usable as Zama-C's Fighting / Steel in the current meta (being weak to Ghost, Dark, Ice, Dragon, and Fairy).

- Giratina-Origin would work as a Pseudo-Knock Off absorber, which the metagame always needs (although it has to be careful as it is weak to it). 150 / 100 / 100 bulk is absolutely fantastic but is also offset by its very common weaknesses, lack of recovery (both passive and active), and is prone to being worn down.

- The item it's required to use, Griseous Orb, is not particularly good or honestly even good at all in the current meta. "If held by a Giratina, its Ghost- and Dragon-type attacks have 1.2x power." While having slightly powered-up Ghost-type attacks is great, it's still a noticeable bit less than a Life Orb boost, and Dragon STAB isn't exactly great in a metagame with Pokemon such as Heatran, Melmetal, Corviknight, etc running around.

- A bulky offensive utility mon such as Giratina-O would actually be great for a number of team archetypes, and I feel would help balance out certain aspects of the metagame. Having access to neat utility options such as Defog, Roar, Will-O-Wisp, Tailwind, and Magic Coat is pretty cool. Most likely it wouldn't go purely offensive often as it would be outclassed in this role by Dragapult; Dragapult has the same 120 attack stat, 20 fewer Special Attack (100), but is a whopping 52 points faster and has the ability to run specific item builds and has a wider offensive movepool.

- A little more of an unorthodox example, but Giratina-O was tested in Generation 5's OU as part of an April Fool's joke, and even back then people thought it was far less broken than they thought it would be. Now imagine how it would fair here in Generation 8 with the vastly increased power creep and far less hospitable conditions for it to thrive. (It was also just a blast to use back then as well).

I'm not saying it's for sure going to stay, but I seriously think we should consider talking about Giratina-Origin in Overused being tested.

 

[ausma]

Hello everyone, let me make a disclaimer regarding the concept of suspecting more existing Ubers Pokemon:

As an optimist, I tend to try and keep an open mind about the ideas that others have about the metagame and what they see as being ban-worthy, suspect-worthy, or even worth bringing into the tier from Ubers. This is why I entertained the Zamazenta suspect and this philosophy was a big reason why I ultimately joined the pro-unban side of the suspect, and it also led me to evaluate quite a few components of the metagame in greater depth.

In general, though, I would try to avoid this kind of discussion going forward as it generally does not provide anything constructive toward discussion other than creating great polarity between the poster and the overwhelming majority of people who would otherwise disagree with the suggestion. When it comes down to it, these kinds of suggestions are impossible to quantify the balance of because they do not exist in the metagame; in other words, they are baseless theorymon. The issue with theorymonning is that discussion becomes purely speculative and a lot of concrete data becomes meaningless. In turn, the metagame discussion becomes less a discussion about the metagame and more about "what-if" questions and people ganging up on the person who made the initial suggestion.

Zamazenta-C was an exception because it was met with overwhelming support to where metagame discussion was heavily trumped in favor of the suspect, and it was difficult to really temper given the hype around the idea; though, more notably, there were legitimate arguments and reasons to suspect Zamazenta-C. However, no matter how we approach the situation and whether we agree on its merits or not, it undeniably derailed and refocused metagame development/discussion toward the ramifications of it being a part of the tier as opposed to the existing metagame. It took a lot of work and coordination from the OU council and forced them to divvy their resources to make the suspect possible, and moreover, even with months' worth of support, they could only feasibly do it when the metagame was in a stable position.

I highly encourage and support the discussion of ideas and observations such as these, but I want to make clear that discussion of Ubers suspects should remain at a minimum given their effect on the thread, how it's generally impossible to truly make concrete arguments due to the lack of qualitative data, and how it's not realistic to divvy our resources toward constantly suspecting them. Thank you for your understanding!

 

[BT89]

Question #1: What is your favorite thing about Generation 8's OU?

Question #2: What is your least favorite thing about Generation 8's OU?

Question #3: If you could pick one Pokemon as rising in usage from a lower-tier over the next few months into OU, which one would you pick?

Question #4: If there was one Pokemon in Ubers that you could possibly consider as being testable or even healthy in OU, which one would you pick?

#1: My favorite thing by far is the cast of Pokemon. I think this cast of Pokemon is cool right now, as they all can differentiate from each other, from a defensive Pokemon that walls many offensive threats and can even be a threat in its own right (Dragonite) to a Pokemon that finds offensive use with extremely strong priority giving it a small amount of walls (Rillapoo). There’s enough variety to make it a solid balanced meta.

#2: My least favorite thing is Heavy-Duty Boots. The Boots discussion has been done to death, so I will keep it short. Boots stopping pivotal chip damage is a hinderance in a meta where hazards as very important.

#3: Weavile is more or less already in OU considering the massive rise, so I won’t say that. Instead, I’ll say I hope Terrakion gets fully realized in OU. The main reason why is that with Future Sight support (maybe even without), it has near to no switch ins. You could run either Banded or SD 3 Attacks, either or works. Terrakion’s STABs are both great, and that Attack stat is quite awesome. I generally prefer Banded, but SD can still work. The issue, however, comes in the absolutely terrible defensive typing that comes with the great offensive one, as it gives Terrakion weaknesses to common typings, which ruins its 91/90/90 bulk. It’s Speed tier is also unfortunate, being a singular point slower than Kartana. Overall, however, Terrakion is a very solid and useful Pokemon right now.

#4: Do not ban or unban anything. Personally, with the metagame changing quite a bit, as well as the metagame being perfectly stable, nothing should change. Removing or adding one thing that may be questionable within the tier interrupts the balance of it all. The only bans I would really support wouldn’t even be Pokemon bans, mostly just Kings Rock and maybe a Freeze limit?

I’d love to see people discuss these points (except the last one regarding Ubers).

 

[xXxJenniferxXx]

Hello everyone, let me make a disclaimer regarding the concept of suspecting more existing Ubers Pokemon:

As an optimist, I tend to try and keep an open mind about the ideas that others have about the metagame and what they see as being ban-worthy, suspect-worthy, or even worth bringing into the tier from Ubers. This is why I entertained the Zamazenta suspect and this philosophy was a big reason why I ultimately joined the pro-unban side of the suspect, and it also led me to evaluate quite a few components of the metagame in greater depth.

In general, though, I would try to avoid this kind of discussion going forward as it generally does not provide anything constructive toward discussion other than creating great polarity between the poster and the overwhelming majority of people who would otherwise disagree with the suggestion. When it comes down to it, these kinds of suggestions are impossible to quantify the balance of because they do not exist in the metagame; in other words, they are baseless theorymon. The issue with theorymonning is that discussion becomes purely speculative and a lot of concrete data becomes meaningless. In turn, the metagame discussion becomes less a discussion about the metagame and more about "what-if" questions and people ganging up on the person who made the initial suggestion.

Zamazenta-C was an exception because it was met with overwhelming support to where metagame discussion was overwhelmingly trumped in favor of the suspect, and it was difficult to really temper given the hype around the idea; however, more notably, there were legitimate arguments and reasons to suspect Zamazenta-C. However, no matter how we approach the situation and whether we agree on its merits or not, it undeniably derailed and refocused metagame development/discussion toward the ramifications of it being a part of the tier as opposed to the existing metagame. It took a lot of work and coordination from the OU council and forced them to divvy their resources to make the suspect possible, and moreover, even with months' worth of support, they could only feasibly do it when the metagame was in a stable position.

I highly encourage and support the discussion of ideas and observations such as these, but I want to make clear that discussion of Ubers suspects should remain at a minimum given their effect on the thread, how it's generally impossible to truly make concrete arguments due to the lack of qualitative data, and how it's not realistic to divvy our resources toward constantly suspecting them. Thank you for your understanding!

I'm sorry if my original post regarding Giratina-O wasn't conducive to conversation, and I appreciate the candor about Ubers retests! The main reason I posted it was because I felt that a bulky ghost support mon that doesn't lose an item to Knock Off would actually be a really nice change for the metagame and would help certain team archetypes and actually flesh out the meta even more. I won't bring it up beyond my original post, as I'm already seeing what you're saying about the polarization from the reactions to it. I'll just keep a lookout for if the general trend of the meta calls for its testing like they did with Zama-C!

#1: My favorite thing by far is the cast of Pokemon. I think this cast of Pokemon is cool right now, as they all can differentiate from each other, from a defensive Pokemon that walls many offensive threats and can even be a threat in its own right (Dragonite) to a Pokemon that finds offensive use with extremely strong priority giving it a small amount of walls (Rillapoo). There’s enough variety to make it a solid balanced meta.

#2: My least favorite thing is Heavy-Duty Boots. The Boots discussion has been done to death, so I will keep it short. Boots stopping pivotal chip damage is a hinderance in a meta where hazards as very important.

#3: Weavile is more or less already in OU considering the massive rise, so I won’t say that. Instead, I’ll say I hope Terrakion gets fully realized in OU. The main reason why is that with Future Sight support (maybe even without), it has near to no switch ins. You could run either Banded or SD 3 Attacks, either or works. Terrakion’s STABs are both great, and that Attack stat is quite awesome. I generally prefer Banded, but SD can still work. The issue, however, comes in the absolutely terrible defensive typing that comes with the great offensive one, as it gives Terrakion weaknesses to common typings, which ruins its 91/90/90 bulk. It’s Speed tier is also unfortunate, being a singular point slower than Kartana. Overall, however, Terrakion is a very solid and useful Pokemon right now.

#4: Do not ban or unban anything. Personally, with the metagame changing quite a bit, as well as the metagame being perfectly stable, nothing should change. Removing or adding one thing that may be questionable within the tier interrupts the balance of it all. The only bans I would really support wouldn’t even be Pokemon bans, mostly just Kings Rock and maybe a Freeze limit?

I’d love to see people discuss these points (except the last one regarding Ubers).

Terrakion really is a fantastic Pokemon, and I didn't even consider its ability to synergize with Future Sight. Scarf also comes to mind in regards to your set to maybe get the smack on things like Specs Dragapult?

 

[Red Raven]

Question #1: What is your favorite thing about Generation 8's OU?

Question #2: What is your least favorite thing about Generation 8's OU?

Question #3: If you could pick one Pokemon as rising in usage from a lower-tier over the next few months into OU, which one would you pick?

Question #4: If there was one Pokemon in Ubers that you could possibly consider as being testable or even healthy in OU, which one would you pick?

Since you asked

1. Same as yours. I hated hidden power. I always think that it was such a skill less move. I could rant about this for five thousand words but I'll keep it short. A pokemon should not be able to defeat another pokemon that they can't naturally beat. By naturally I mean a coverage move or just plain brute force. Celebi should not lose to Keldeo, Heatran should not lose to Volcarona, Garchomp should not lose to Zapdos. You get the idea. If a pokemon defeats another pokemon they shouldn't be able to beat, that's like saying an antelope can beat a lion in a fair fight. I've always hated this and if I already joined smogon during that time, I guarantee you I would have driven the moderators more insane that the times I did when there was a five page argument about boots

2. Can't choose one on this since I absolutely hate just about every mechanic they changed or introduced this gen. Dynamax was such a huge mess that smogon decided to ban it, teleport for me is the same as how I described hidden power and of course, boots. I used to like the metagame when Magearna was banned but now, I find it is the worst crown tundra metagame. I'm not against having variety in the metagame but the kind of variety we have now is just straight up too much. The possibilities enabled by these dumbass mechanics are too much. However, if there is one thing that I hate even more than gen eight mechanics, it's the rng. I shouldn't have to explain why I hate that thing. That blasted thing makes me wish I had a revolver in my room so I can play russian roulette everytime I queue for a battle

3. None. I don't really care what tier a pokemon is in. If it fits what I need then I'll use it

4. Cinderace. I still maintain that it was wrongfully banned and that the new mechanics thanks to gamefreak's Charizard fetish got it banned

 

[xXxJenniferxXx]

Since you asked

1. Same as yours. I hated hidden power. I always think that it was such a skill less move. I could rant about this for five thousand words but I'll keep it short. A pokemon should not be able to defeat another pokemon that they can't naturally beat. By naturally I mean a coverage move or just plain brute force. Celebi should not lose to Keldeo, Heatran should not lose to Volcarona, Garchomp should not lose to Zapdos. You get the idea. If a pokemon defeats another pokemon they shouldn't be able to beat, that's like saying an antelope can beat a lion in a fair fight. I've always hated this and if I already joined smogon during that time, I guarantee you I would have driven the moderators more insane that the times I did when there was a five page argument about boots

2. Can't choose one on this since I absolutely hate just about every mechanic they changed or introduced this gen. Dynamax was such a huge mess that smogon decided to ban it, teleport for me is the same as how I described hidden power and of course, boots. I used to like the metagame when Magearna was banned but now, I find it is the worst crown tundra metagame. I'm not against having variety in the metagame but the kind of variety we have now is just straight up too much. The possibilities enabled by these dumbass mechanics are too much. However, if there is one thing that I hate even more than gen eight mechanics, it's the rng. I shouldn't have to explain why I hate that thing. That blasted thing makes me wish I had a revolver in my room so I can play russian roulette everytime I queue for a battle

3. None. I don't really care what tier a pokemon is in. If it fits what I need then I'll use it

4. Cinderace. I still maintain that it was wrongfully banned and that the new mechanics thanks to gamefreak's Charizard fetish got it banned

For your #1, I absolutely agree with your point about not being able to defeat Pokemon with certain Pokemon, and how it reduces skilled teambuilding. I'd actually like to add to your point by saying that Hidden Power actually also removes the skill in proper prediction in quite a few cases as well (not always, but certainly quite a bit). I feel as though Hidden Power was necessary back in Gen 2 and 3 when a lot of Pokemon didn't have reliable STAB or any STAB in some cases but it ran its course as soon as Generation 4 introduced the Physical Special split and revitalized so many Pokemon with fresh movepools as a result.

For your #2 I actually have to say I disagree with your point on there being too much variety as I feel that, while many things are usable and can be effective (I've seen some really cool posts about PU / ZU mons with viable OU niches in here), I still feel that a good number of specific archetypes are way better than others (Ghost offense being better than Rain teams for example). However, I do agree with your point about Teleport, and Voltturn spam in general.

Hard agree with #3, tiers don't matter, what the metagame calls for matters.

Cinderace? I can see the points for and against that. On one hand, I feel it was nowhere near as oppressive as say, Gen 6 Protean Greninja, but on the other hand I still feel like it constrains some aspects of teambuilding in a way that invalidates certain archetypes.

 

[OvertoneSeries]

My Answer to Question #4:

Giratina-Origin should be tested in OU

Don't think this is a good idea at all. Dragon/Ghost as we've seen is a ridiculously strong dual STAB, and while it may seem like Dragapult would outclass it somewhat on the offensive end, Giratina majorly wins in versatility; it can run a very strong physical set as well as special thanks to strong priority in Shadow Sneak and the absolutely terrifying Poltergeist, and it has access to T-Wave/Hex/CM/Sub, which with its insane bulk brings to mind an unholy amalgamation of CM Spectrier's power and Coil Zygarde's parahax. Giratina also has access to Aura Sphere to scare practically everything that might feel safe against a Ghost move, as well as a few other defensive toys like Defog and Rest. I don't see how this thing will be remotely okay for the current OU meta; anything with this amount of versatility, immediate power, and bulk, and tools to take advantage of all of those aspects, is pretty unlikely to be anything but broken.

 

[Red Raven]

For your #1, I absolutely agree with your point about not being able to defeat Pokemon with certain Pokemon, and how it reduces skilled teambuilding. I'd actually like to add to your point by saying that Hidden Power actually also removes the skill in proper prediction in quite a few cases as well (not always, but certainly quite a bit). I feel as though Hidden Power was necessary back in Gen 2 and 3 when a lot of Pokemon didn't have reliable STAB or any STAB in some cases but it ran its course as soon as Generation 4 introduced the Physical Special split and revitalized so many Pokemon with fresh movepools as a result.

For your #2 I actually have to say I disagree with your point on there being too much variety as I feel that, while many things are usable and can be effective (I've seen some really cool posts about PU / ZU mons with viable OU niches in here), I still feel that a good number of specific archetypes are way better than others (Ghost offense being better than Rain teams for example). However, I do agree with your point about Teleport, and Voltturn spam in general.

Hard agree with #3, tiers don't matter, what the metagame calls for matters.

Cinderace? I can see the points for and against that. On one hand, I feel it was nowhere near as oppressive as say, Gen 6 Protean Greninja, but on the other hand I still feel like it constrains some aspects of teambuilding in a way that invalidates certain archetypes.

Oh yeah. That too on the physical special split. Forgot to mention that part

Well, I did say I'm not against variety. I just hate how the mechanics make that variety suffocating. I dunno about the others but I would rather deal with one or two super threats at a time (Darkshifu / Spectrier) than all the not so super threats all at once. Really, having to prepare for the top mons, choiced wall breakers and boots perverts at the same time is so annoying. At least if the super threats are allowed, everybody is using them so it isn't as suffocating

And I forgot to mention, I agree with Giratina being unbanned. The only reason I even agree with that is I hate this metagame so much I want to throw it into complete disarray just for the fun of it, just like what Joker does to Gotham

 

[xXxJenniferxXx]

Oh yeah. That too on the physical special split. Forgot to mention that part

Well, I did say I'm not against variety. I just hate how the mechanics make that variety suffocating. I dunno about the others but I would rather deal with one or two super threats at a time (Darkshifu / Spectrier) than all the not so super threats all at once. Really, having to prepare for the top mons, choiced wall breakers and boots perverts at the same time is so annoying. At least if the super threats are allowed, everybody is using them so it isn't as suffocating

And I forgot to mention, I agree with Giratina being unbanned. The only reason I even agree with that is I hate this metagame so much I want to throw it into complete disarray just for the fun of it, just like what Joker does to Gotham

Never did I think I would hear the phrase "boots perverts" in relation to competitive Pokemon discussion.

Honestly, I disagree with the part of your statement that I bolded in the quote very heavily. Darkshifu made certain additions to the team mandatory (aka physically defensive Fairy types) while also invalidating defensive setup Pokemon completely with assured critical hits, and Spectrier's influence offensively was so borked (not just because of its own power and speed, but how it made Ghost offense as a whole extremely restricting to prepare for) that people were finding microscopic niches for Pokemon like Audino just to handle all the Shadow Balls and Poltergeists flying around.

I feel that while it can be mentally taxing to take so many different other threats into account, I still feel that OU's current flexibility in team archetypes is actually comparable to Gen 4's flexibility (aka, quite varied!) I feel that having a metagame where you can use specific team types and analyze general trends is better than knowing specific hyper threats and absolutely having to prepare for those beyond anything else.

 

[Red Raven]

Never did I think I would hear the phrase "boots perverts" in relation to competitive Pokemon discussion.

Honestly, I disagree with the part of your statement that I bolded in the quote very heavily. Darkshifu made certain additions to the team mandatory (aka physically defensive Fairy types) while also invalidating defensive setup Pokemon completely with assured critical hits, and Spectrier's influence offensively was so borked (not just because of its own power and speed, but how it made Ghost offense as a whole extremely restricting to prepare for) that people were finding microscopic niches for Pokemon like Audino just to handle all the Shadow Balls and Poltergeists flying around.

I feel that while it can be mentally taxing to take so many different other threats into account, I still feel that OU's current flexibility in team archetypes is actually comparable to Gen 4's flexibility (aka, quite varied!) I feel that having a metagame where you can use specific team types and analyze general trends is better than knowing specific hyper threats and absolutely having to prepare for those beyond anything else.

Boots perv is just a term I use because I absolutely hate this thing. I'm pretty sure you already have an idea why and this horse is already beaten half to death with discussions already

That probably just comes down to personal preference to be honest. I tend to think of it like, if you had to choose being shot once with a 762 cartridge or multiple times with a 9mm, which would you choose? I choose the first. Oh, and we should probably discuss this elsewhere because the mods come in

In all honesty though, I find this metagame to be a pick your poison kind when it comes to dealing with the offensive threats. As I said, the effects of the new mechanics just makes the variety too much for me. Call me lazy or whatever but I just hate the new mechanics. I find there is nothing more unplayable than facing a switch move spam team that doesn't get punished and a fat defensive core supported by a knock off absorber

 

[Abhi]

When your ground type dies ​

"Unfortunate" doesnt begin to describe Regieleki's stance in the current meta. The abundance and nescessity of ground types on every team makes it oh so hard to use, and even its semi viable screens set which is protecting it from dropping into UR is falling out of relevance when better screens setters like Alolan Ninetales and Grimmsnarl are rising in viability. Even as an electric type it faces immense competition from Tapu Koko and Zeraora which are worlds better than Regieleki.

....anyway what if i found a way to get rid of ground types so Regieleki wasnt a useless piece of shit anymore.

Incoming Glaciate Victini!! This is the shittiest possible thing I couldve come up with but trust me it works and is surprisingly fun.

So basically Victini with Glaciate baits in and kills Garchomp and Landorus-T and also Hippowdon is easily 2HKO'd with V-create, now you may think, "Boy, this guys talking out of his ass, i bet he doesnt even play the game / and or doesnt know how the meta works" now even tho that is true, im just gonna say Regieleki is fun. It may not be the most viable mon out of them all nor the most impressive of the electrics but man
its rlly fucking fun to destroy Electric resists with repeated Volt Switches and forcing them out with teammates, also it gets Rapid Spin so liek hazards go woosh.

Now you might also think, "This guy really needs to touch some grass, is he really advocating for Regieleki?? the worst mon in ou?? AND hes in the QC team?? what a dissapointment" and to all that I say, fuck off, and also that dont say its bad untill youve tried it yk. It could also be that youre not thinking any of this and are actually laughing hysterically at my brilliant edit of Choice Specs Regieleki, or are cowering in fear idk ive got mixed responses about this one.

anyway i made a team with victini and regieleki.

Import

Regieleki @ Choice Specs
Ability: Transistor
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Rapid Spin
- Ancient Power

Victini @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Glaciate

Corviknight @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 92 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 30 Spe
- Body Press
- U-turn
- Defog
- Roost

Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 132 HP / 128 SpA / 248 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Earth Power
- Roost

Toxapex @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Knock Off
- Recover
- Haze
- Toxic Spikes

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 164 SpD / 92 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock

Desc

Yea idrk what i was thinking during making this, i was half asleep during the entirity of it, it can handle most the stuff in the meta pretty easily except Kyurem but we all know that Kyurem is actually C tier dogshit and not viable in OU, but if you face it you just kinda have to pivot around it and keep Stealth Rocks up so its virtually on a timer.

Anyway that concludes this shitty post, I hope you giggled or chuckled or whatever you call the action of laughing lightly. And to anyone who thought this post was serious, jokes on you it partly is cuz i actually built this team and cuz i actually like using it because it can be fun to use in certain situations, but also jokes on me because regieleki is most certainly dogshit and isnt worth using, like at all.
Anyway, Have a nice day mates!
Disclaimer: This post is satire :)

 

[Tapeworm]

Question #3: If you could pick one Pokemon as rising in usage from a lower-tier over the next few months into OU, which one would you pick?

I'm gonna interpret this as 'which mons do you see rising in usage?'

This is the one prediction I made a while back that I was completely wrong about, I thought it would be a passing fad but it just keeps getting better. Exploiting the structural limitations forced onto a lot of teams by other breakers, working effectively with common support like FuturePort and Spikes, and its effectiveness vs a range of archetypes makes it brilliant. The meta will adapt because Weav Spikes is the juice and will obviously be more prepped for, but right this moment it's fantastic.

Offensive gym bro is great right now with the defensive compression it offers while still being able to slap back. The rise of Weavile is also a naturally gonna bring this guy back into the limelight on top of its ability to compress defensive support vs prevalent threats like Chomp, Kart, Boom, Bisharp, etc. I can see Zwole+Glowking teams picking up with their ability to work together offensively and defensively vs the rising archetypes and playstyles right now. I still hate defensive Buzzwole though, it's a tack-on do-nothing set that covers as many holes as possible on paper but is just a total momentum sink generally.

Victini's a very annoying mon with a good deal of versatility in its available coverage while also having a consistent nuke in V-Create. Its coverage in Glaciate and Bolt Strike work very well with mons like Weav and Koko among others to serve as lures for their checks, but other options are freely available such as Scorching Sands Tran Lure, Expanding Force paired with Lele, Future Sight pivot, Wil-O lure, mixed sets with Blue Flare, I have seen all of these around. It's a mon that'll always get your attention when you see it at preview and works well particularly with the common offensive picks at the moment. Fucking scary on Sun too.

This is the one I'm least convinced about, but I would not be surprised to see this thing rise as well thanks to the splashability of its powerful Ghost STAB and its ability to function as a mixed lure with CC to open up special breakers such as Kyurem, Pult, Lele, etc. I very much have my doubts that it'll actually crack into the tier, but I do see merit in considering it on more builds.

All of this may become dated very quickly with OLT round the corner inviting the cycle of HO spam > Ditto stall > Fu + FuturePort BO > more HO spam > prio-spam HO > Lele BO > whatever the hell settles at the end of it all, but this is what I see in the immediate present.

 

[Fluxnorg]

The main problem I see in the current metagame is how constricting it is with so many threats that every team needs to prepare for. As a solution to this, what if we took a page out of National Dex’s book?

Natdex OU quickbanned Mega Metagross, Ash-Greninja, Galarian Darmanitan, Tornadus-T and Urshifu-S for all being too threatening, and then individually suspect tested each of them to see if it was really the mon that was broken or if their power was just a product of metagame trends. This method salvaged Ash-Greninja from rotting as an OUBL Uber and kept the metagame as diverse as possible while still eliminating key threats.

The way I see it, this could be the safest way to fully stabilize the metagame and relieve teambuilding pressure. Some strong candidates for this massive quickban gangbang include:

1. Dragapult
It’s speed tier is damn near supersonic, and it absolutely blows away the majority of the tier with its meta-warping Ghost stab while pivoting out on what it can’t handle. It is heavily responsible for the rises of Weavile, Bisharp, SpD Clef and SpD Hippowdon.

2. Heatran
Defensive counterplay is extremely difficult to come across since Taunt + Toxic wears down pretty much anything combined with Magma Storm chip. This mon is almost singlehandedly responsible for the surge in viability of mons like Slowking and Defensive Dragonite (RIP Gliscor), as well as encouraging the use of Earthquake on Glowking or Shed Shell on Toxapex.

3. Weavile
This absolute menace dishes out STAB Knock Off and Triple Axels for days and has priority alongside high speed, limiting both offensive and defensive counterplay. Contributed to the fall of Rillaboom and Slowbro while Tapu Fini and Toxapex usage skyrocketed to combat it.

4. Volcarona
The matchup moth has once again found it’s time to shine with the fury of the sun on its wings. Has a set to beat damn near all of its conventional checks except Heatran or offensive Dnite.

5. Kyurem
The mon notorious for having absolutely no switch-ins, though offensive counterplay is everywhere.


This is just an idea after all, and I’m not saying that any of these mons are absolutely busted. However most of the strength of the current metagame threats stem from others, so a system like this might be key to eliminate the absolute most restraining threat.

 

[Liquidocelot]

The main problem I see in the current metagame is how constricting it is with so many threats that every team needs to prepare for. As a solution to this, what if we took a page out of National Dex’s book?

Natdex OU quickbanned Mega Metagross, Ash-Greninja, Galarian Darmanitan, Tornadus-T and Urshifu-S for all being too threatening, and then individually suspect tested each of them to see if it was really the mon that was broken or if their power was just a product of metagame trends. This method salvaged Ash-Greninja from rotting as an OUBL Uber and kept the metagame as diverse as possible while still eliminating key threats.

The way I see it, this could be the safest way to fully stabilize the metagame and relieve teambuilding pressure. Some strong candidates for this massive quickban gangbang include:

1. Dragapult
It’s speed tier is damn near supersonic, and it absolutely blows away the majority of the tier with its meta-warping Ghost stab while pivoting out on what it can’t handle. It is heavily responsible for the rises of Weavile, Bisharp, SpD Clef and SpD Hippowdon.

2. Heatran
Defensive counterplay is extremely difficult to come across since Taunt + Toxic wears down pretty much anything combined with Magma Storm chip. This mon is almost singlehandedly responsible for the surge in viability of mons like Slowking and Defensive Dragonite (RIP Gliscor), as well as encouraging the use of Earthquake on Glowking or Shed Shell on Toxapex.

3. Weavile
This absolute menace dishes out STAB Knock Off and Triple Axels for days and has priority alongside high speed, limiting both offensive and defensive counterplay. Contributed to the fall of Rillaboom and Slowbro while Tapu Fini and Toxapex usage skyrocketed to combat it.

4. Volcarona
The matchup moth has once again found it’s time to shine with the fury of the sun on its wings. Has a set to beat damn near all of its conventional checks except Heatran or offensive Dnite.

5. Kyurem
The mon notorious for having absolutely no switch-ins, though offensive counterplay is everywhere.


This is just an idea after all, and I’m not saying that any of these mons are absolutely busted. However most of the strength of the current metagame threats stem from others, so a system like this might be key to eliminate the absolute most restraining threat.

I'm of the opinion that is were doing this we should do Urshifu-R over Weavile or Kyurem and we should also consider Rillaboom who I still think is fucking stupid.

 

[Endrism]

The main problem I see in the current metagame is how constricting it is with so many threats that every team needs to prepare for. As a solution to this, what if we took a page out of National Dex’s book?

Natdex OU quickbanned Mega Metagross, Ash-Greninja, Galarian Darmanitan, Tornadus-T and Urshifu-S for all being too threatening, and then individually suspect tested each of them to see if it was really the mon that was broken or if their power was just a product of metagame trends. This method salvaged Ash-Greninja from rotting as an OUBL Uber and kept the metagame as diverse as possible while still eliminating key threats.

The way I see it, this could be the safest way to fully stabilize the metagame and relieve teambuilding pressure. Some strong candidates for this massive quickban gangbang include:

1. Dragapult
It’s speed tier is damn near supersonic, and it absolutely blows away the majority of the tier with its meta-warping Ghost stab while pivoting out on what it can’t handle. It is heavily responsible for the rises of Weavile, Bisharp, SpD Clef and SpD Hippowdon.

2. Heatran
Defensive counterplay is extremely difficult to come across since Taunt + Toxic wears down pretty much anything combined with Magma Storm chip. This mon is almost singlehandedly responsible for the surge in viability of mons like Slowking and Defensive Dragonite (RIP Gliscor), as well as encouraging the use of Earthquake on Glowking or Shed Shell on Toxapex.

3. Weavile
This absolute menace dishes out STAB Knock Off and Triple Axels for days and has priority alongside high speed, limiting both offensive and defensive counterplay. Contributed to the fall of Rillaboom and Slowbro while Tapu Fini and Toxapex usage skyrocketed to combat it.

4. Volcarona
The matchup moth has once again found it’s time to shine with the fury of the sun on its wings. Has a set to beat damn near all of its conventional checks except Heatran or offensive Dnite.

5. Kyurem
The mon notorious for having absolutely no switch-ins, though offensive counterplay is everywhere.


This is just an idea after all, and I’m not saying that any of these mons are absolutely busted. However most of the strength of the current metagame threats stem from others, so a system like this might be key to eliminate the absolute most restraining threat.

See the biggest difference here though is the absense of Z-Moves. Torn was threatening in NatDex because not only was it the best defogger in the meta, but could also nuke things like Lando-T with Z-Hurricane, or Heatran with Z-Focus Blast. The thing could be splashed on every team and pick up a kill and a defog each match reliably because of its decent bulk and regenerator. Waterium Z Ash-Gren is incredibly destructive, ect ect.

This game lacks the gimmicks the last few generations have had, making it a lot harder to truly tell whos centralizing and whos overcentralizing. I do agree with the prospect of looking into Pult and Kyurem specifically, but even they shouldn't just be quickbanned. Volcarona has to deal with 4MSS with deciding between Giga Drain for Swampert and Fini, or Psychic for Pex and Urshifu. Weavile is definitely good, but its not overpowering, and pretty much every single pokemon in the meta that is faster than it can beat it pretty easily, and Heatran's typing is kind of harsh towards it, being weak to Ground, Water, and Fighting, three types we see a good amount due to TR's giving everyone and their mother Close Combat.

I'm of the opinion that is were doing this we should do Urshifu-R over Weavile or Kyurem and we should also consider Rillaboom who I still think is fucking stupid.

Rillaboom and Urshifu are great mons in the meta, however both have their problems.

For Rillaboom, any bulky grass, the steel birds, along with Volcarona and Zapdos can easily dispose of the monkey, with Tapu Lele and Tapu Koko able to negate it's Grassy Terrain and either send off a destructive Psychic in Lele's case, or U-turn out in Koko's case.

For Urshifu, those bulky grasses also cause a huge problem, but bulky waters and the birds can also halt any set not running thunder punch, but giving up thunder punch causes you to lose Aqua Jet, a very good tool for revenge killing Volcaronas, Zeraoras, and Weaviles.

 

[Gomi]

The reason natdex did kokoloko at all is because the metagame was a mess of like 6 different pokemon that made it borderline unplayable and no one knew what to address first, SS ou is absolutely a playable metagame.
Some of these mons listed are absolutely insane to me anyways. Volcarona? during the peak of spdef lando on 99% of builds and pex's resurgence as the best bulky water? WEAVILE? slowbro was falling off long before this pokemon took center stage and rillaboom is mediocre for plenty of reasons independent of weavile, including but not limited to its incredibly exploitable stab, its reliance on rocks to force progress via knock off whilst having synergy with like 1 rocker in Heatran, and every build coincidentally prepping for it to hell and back because SD Kartana is a top tier breaker with a huge amount of overlapping counterplay. Its not even an HO staple anymore, tons of builds forgoe it just fine.

The metagames far from perfect but the solution isnt to just randomly throw together 5 mons that're vaguely controversial and vote on them at once. That's just really reactionary

 

[Fluxnorg]

See the biggest difference here though is the absense of Z-Moves. Torn was threatening in NatDex because not only was it the best defogger in the meta, but could also nuke things like Lando-T with Z-Hurricane, or Heatran with Z-Focus Blast. The thing could be splashed on every team and pick up a kill and a defog each match reliably because of its decent bulk and regenerator. Waterium Z Ash-Gren is incredibly destructive, ect ect.

This game lacks the gimmicks the last few generations have had, making it a lot harder to truly tell whos centralizing and whos overcentralizing. I do agree with the prospect of looking into Pult and Kyurem specifically, but even they shouldn't just be quickbanned. Volcarona has to deal with 4MSS with deciding between Giga Drain for Swampert and Fini, or Psychic for Pex and Urshifu. Weavile is definitely good, but its not overpowering, and pretty much every single pokemon in the meta that is faster than it can beat it pretty easily, and Heatran's typing is kind of harsh towards it, being weak to Ground, Water, and Fighting, three types we see a good amount due to TR's giving everyone and their mother Close Combat.



Rillaboom and Urshifu are great mons in the meta, however both have their problems.

For Rillaboom, any bulky grass, the steel birds, along with Volcarona and Zapdos can easily dispose of the monkey, with Tapu Lele and Tapu Koko able to negate it's Grassy Terrain and either send off a destructive Psychic in Lele's case, or U-turn out in Koko's case.

For Urshifu, those bulky grasses also cause a huge problem, but bulky waters and the birds can also halt any set not running thunder punch, but giving up thunder punch causes you to lose Aqua Jet, a very good tool for revenge killing Volcaronas, Zeraoras, and Weaviles.

Obviously none of these mons are nearly as broken as the big NatDex 5, especially without Z moves, but we’ve both stated that the biggest threats are incredibly difficult to pinpoint, and the majority of top tier threats synergize very well with each other. It’s also not like the big 5 were perfect Pokémon either except MMeta, Garm has a horrible typing and is incredibly frail, while Ash-Gren has to secure a kill in it’s much weaker form. Torn-T didn’t have much breaking power once it burned its Z, and Urshifu was fairly slow.

Im not saying that Pult or Tran or especially not the latter 3 candidates are unstoppable eldritch behemoths and need to go out to get milk forever, because in this diverse cesspool of a meta we really can’t be sure who is the commander of this Titanic. Obviously it’s a big step from where we currently are, but with all the confusion it’s an option that may be worth considering.

The reason natdex did kokoloko at all is because the metagame was a mess of like 6 different pokemon that made it borderline unplayable and no one knew what to address first, SS ou is absolutely a playable metagame.
Some of these mons listed are absolutely insane to me anyways. Volcarona? during the peak of spdef lando on 99% of builds and pex's resurgence as the best bulky water? WEAVILE? slowbro was falling off long before this pokemon took center stage and rillaboom is mediocre for plenty of reasons independent of weavile, including but not limited to its incredibly exploitable stab, its reliance on rocks to force progress via knock off whilst having synergy with like 1 rocker in Heatran, and every build coincidentally prepping for it to hell and back because SD Kartana is a top tier breaker with a huge amount of overlapping counterplay. Its not even an HO staple anymore, tons of builds forgoe it just fine.

The metagames far from perfect but the solution isnt to just randomly throw together 5 mons that're vaguely controversial and vote on them at once. That's just really reactionary

My examples are just suggestions of some of the top tier threats. I’m not Arceus, so it’s not like my decisions are set it stone. That is a topic that would require discussion which I am glad to see is stirring up.

On your reasons for defending some of my SAMPLE nominations, I have a few things to say. The big 5 of NatDex also had their checks, and yet they were still deemed broken, so listing two Pokémon that check Volcarona, two shaky, unreliable checks that have to sacrifice a moveslot, physical bulk, or both just to beat its most common set is far from helping your case. As for Weavile, you make it sound like the only reason it’s so good is because it could beat Slowbro, which is far from the truth. I can get behind the reasons for Rillaboom to be ignored, but it also exemplifies adding Kartana to this list.

Again, I’m not some grand dictator controlling the metagame, and obviously the NatDex system has some flaws. I was just trying to provide some food for though.

 

[LOOR]

yeah i really dont support the the kokoloko approach at all. its not like we have some huge titanic monsters like we did early dlc2. i understand wanting a metagame better than this asap but this is super extreme. like others said above, we're in a stable metagame right now and doing something like this is basically tier suicide. just because the meta is boring doesnt mean its unstable. for all we know the metagame that would come as a result of youre purposed "super-ban" could be way worse than the current, then we'd have to trickle feed everything we just banned back into the meta. even if this does work, we'd still have to re-suspect everything which is a huge waste of time. not to mention we'd probably have to relearn a lot since you basically just removed the premier mons from the tier. suspecting things one at a time is far more than enough based on the current state of the meta, id rather us take time on a decision rather than us make a drastic step which would waste a whole lot of time with a high chance that we'll end up hating the decision anyway. its not like anything is actually broken, the meta just flat out sucks, is what it is.

 

[Fluxnorg]

yeah i really dont support the the kokoloko approach at all. its not like we have some huge titanic monsters like we did early dlc2. i understand wanting a metagame better than this asap but this is super extreme. like others said above, we're in a stable metagame right now and doing something like this is basically tier suicide. just because the meta is boring doesnt mean its unstable. for all we know the metagame that would come as a result of youre purposed "super-ban" could be way worse than the current, then we'd have to trickle feed everything we just banned back into the meta. even if this does work, we'd still have to re-suspect everything which is a huge waste of time. not to mention we'd probably have to relearn a lot since you basically just removed the premier mons from the tier. suspecting things one at a time is far more than enough based on the current state of the meta, id rather us take time on a decision rather than us make a drastic step which would waste a whole lot of time with a high chance that we'll end up hating the decision anyway. its not like anything is actually broken, the meta just flat out sucks, is what it is.

I see your point. Just throwing out an idea, I can see that it was probably a bad idea. I guess my food for thought was too distasteful to digest, huh? Thanks for putting me back on track, it would probs be better to let the metagame naturally develop.

 

[LOOR]

I see your point. Just throwing out an idea, I can see that it was probably a bad idea. I guess my food for thought was too distasteful to digest, huh? Thanks for putting me back on track, it would probs be better to let the metagame naturally develop.

i didnt mean to sound condescending but i can understand if my approach came off as so. any suggestion is a good suggestion at the moment since we are in a stale spot. i appreciate your contribution, but i have to respectfully disagree with you.

 

[Fluxnorg]

i didnt mean to sound condescending but i can understand if my approach came off as so. any suggestion is a good suggestion at the moment since we are in a stale spot. i appreciate your contribution.

Crap, did I make it sound like you were condescending? My bad, bro. I was just tryna throw in some self-deprecating humor. But yeah, you genuinely had convincing points. Glad I could contribute something.

 

[Gomi]

On your reasons for defending some of my SAMPLE nominations, I have a few things to say. The big 5 of NatDex also had their checks, and yet they were still deemed broken, so listing two Pokémon that check Volcarona, two shaky, unreliable checks that have to sacrifice a moveslot, physical bulk, or both just to beat its most common set is far from helping your case. As for Weavile, you make it sound like the only reason it’s so good is because it could beat Slowbro, which is far from the truth. I can get behind the reasons for Rillaboom to be ignored, but it also exemplifies adding Kartana to this list.

Spdef Lando has utility beyond Volcarona like Koko and Pex runs mixed spreads for scouting Dragapult pretty much constantly (max physdef is a waste of evs), nothing is lost from these pokemon attempting to check Volcarona. They're also far from unreliable as well given a Volc cant be both offensive and Bulkarona at the same time. you can easily adjust your gameplan by working out the volc variant at preview, since Bulkarona allows for more offensive counterplay overall via a reduced speed tier and offensive volc is so reliant on teammates paving the way for it to be able to handle its many checks. its not like its just them, Urshifu Rapid, Blissey, Garchomp, Dragonite, Heatran, Unaware clef, and other random stuff function as fine checks or counters to both sets.

As for Weavile, i wasn't suggesting this. I was saying that both of your examples for pokemon that Weavile pushed down are incorrect or at the very least had plenty of other factors contribute to their downfall. Slowbro started dying off pretty much the second Ace went and Rillaboom is an rker to Weavile if anything, given it needs solid chip to kill with shard and not die to Glide. Toxapex rising was inevitable regardless given its an infinitely better wall than Slowking and the metagame is very cruel to futureport reliant builds atm with stuff aside from Weav, like Kartana, Mew, Hazard spam, and just a general inclination towards a more offensive pace. Tapu fini did rise partially due to the rise of Dark spam though yea, same with Wole, but good pokemon rising to cause a disrupt in the meta isn't grounds for viewing them as bannable. I know you didn't say this and i'm sure this wasn't the intention but honestly that's what putting Weavile here feels like to me, a pokemon that rose up to disrupt a common trend and so new trends arose to combat it.