Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[pulsar512b]

I'll answer ausma's questions later, but right now I would like to bring yall's attention to a potentially good option on specially defensive landorus-therian.

What the hell? Why are you using specially defensive landorus-therian????
This has been answered much more competently by others (and I'm sure if you asked a top player, they'd be able to explain this better). Basically, if you look at the main physical threats in the metagame currently, many of them have good matchups versus defensive landorus-therian- Bisharp appreciates it due to defiant boosts, garchomp can easily wear it down if it's not a life orb set, Kartana 2hkos it, watershifu and Weavile both obviously eviscerate it, and Zeraora can wear it down easily. Thus, physical defense on lando is less "worth it", and as such, it makes sense to put investment in spdef for threats such as Heatran and (most importantly for this post) Volcarona.

Spdef and Physdef Landorus-Therian's matchup vs Volcarona
As most of you probably know, the typical bulky landorus set is rocks, eq, uturn, and knock/toxic.
A regular physdef lando struggles to check Volcarona, as if you swap into it as it QDs even bulky Volcarona does a lot:
+1 0 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 228-268 (59.6 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And of course, if it flamethrowers on the swap:
0 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 153-180 (40 - 47.1%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
even with lefties (which is standard, dunno why the calc has a rocky helmet set)
0 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 153-180 (40 - 47.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(Note that this is plenty of chip for Volc to ensure that it can no longer check it, and that the rare sets with spatk investment will beat it even harder)

These calcs can, of course, be improved by putting spdef investment on. Here are the calcs with 164 spdef (the maximum amount you can put on, with max hp and enough speed for Bisharp, spdef heatran, and base 60s such as Zone and Aegislash)
0 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 164+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 114-135 (29.8 - 35.3%) -- 22.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 0 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 164+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 171-202 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This is much better! Of course, it's not ideal and it will again only require a little more chip than couple sets of stealth rock and one unboosted flamethrower to get it into range.
The true problem with using this as your main volcarona check is that volcarona (esp under screens) often doesn't really care about Landorus's means of damaging it- it can easily tank an EQ and can do safeguard shenanigans versus toxic (albeit, only at great risk).
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Volcarona: 210-247 (56.3 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Note that often volcaronas will run significant physical defense investment)
As such, Landorus-T is not a great check to Volcarona, even if it's specially defensive.

The Option
So uh I lied a little- this is not just one option, it's numerous.
Basically the idea is to run a rock move (Stone Edge, Rock Slide, or even potentially smack down/rock tomb), for the primary purpose of targeting volcarona and improving that matchup.
Annoyingly, you cannot KO bulkarona with smack down. but you can with the other moves (although rock tomb is a roll):
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Smack Down vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Volcarona: 280-332 (75 - 89%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Volcarona: 420-496 (112.6 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Volcarona: 560-660 (150.1 - 176.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Volcarona: 336-396 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

You require near-full attack investment to KO it.
The main reason you may prefer rock slide is for the accuracy, and also I suppose the flinch chance (Although that shouldn't particularly matter?)

Rock coverage is also generally useful against other threats (I will be using Stone Edge for these calcs as I feel that's the best)
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 180-212 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 238-282 (65.7 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 164-194 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 104-123 (32.1 - 38%) -- 96.1% chance to 3HKO

The last of these is probably the most important one, with it being able to serve as counterplay to DD Dragonite.

Downsides
Landorus-T already has some degree of 4MSS, and having to drop Toxic/Knock off/Uturn only worsens the problem.
The innacuracy of rock moves also annoys it.

Conclusion
Stone edge on bulky landorus (particularly spdef) is a valuable option, although not as good in general as toxic/knock off/u-turn. If your team is particularly weak to Volcarona, Zapdos, Torn, or Dragonite, it may be useful.

Thank you for reading my post, and I hope you have a great day :)

 

[toaster04]

bored

1. What were the most notable increases and decreases, and why do you think these mons are used more/less now?

i think its a general agreement in the community that wcop has made some consequential changes to the metagame such as tapu fini being rexplored. softchecking moistshifu, some volc dropping giga drain making it tapu fini food, and some other key pokemon. it fits on a wide array of archetypes, allowing itself to cover these key weaknesses along with others. made a post on weavile outlining most of the reasons why its being used more often in these high-level tournaments, on the ladder, etc.

some other mons i find cool in the meta squabbled in my personal view on the meta are hippo, clefable, toxapex, tornadus-t, (skarmory?) dnite.

3. Among the mons with increased usage, what sets have you been using and enjoying?

whirlpool tapu fini (expirement with the spread, if you're feeling frisky) , swords dance weavile, utility and defensive dd dragonite (been spamming weavile and dnite on half of my teams)

4. Among the mons with decreased usage, what are your favorite sets for those mons?

4 atks nidoking

6. What mons do you predict will continue to see increased usage?

bulkarona, defensive ddnite, weavile, tapu fini, kyurem and cloyster are all on my radar. olt has just begun and cloyster has been seeing an extremely consistent surge of usage. it can allow itself to flinch down its defensive checks, usually ive been seeing it paired with steelbreakers such as sd chomp, volcarona, etc so it has an easier time of sweeping the opposing team. i think weavile is pretty verbatim with my previous post on the matter, was going to answer my favorite wcop game seperately too, which changed my view on the pokemon.


9. How do you feel about the metagame?

despite some extremely dynamic characteristics and advocacies in teambuilding and on the field, i find the metagame to be pretty pretty fun, the recent major tours containing high level play transformed the meta by a massive margin.

12: I hope you have a great rest of your day!

u2

 

[julian113]

I wanted to share with you guys a blaziken set I came up with

Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 28 Def / 68 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Flare Blitz
- Thunder Punch

Enough speed for base 110s after a speed boost and enough phys def for rilla's glide

I know, this looks crazy, but here me out

- 252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 160 HP / 28 Def Blaziken in Grassy Terrain: 153-180 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
- 0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 140-168 (41 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 160 HP / 28 Def Blaziken: 243-287 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 141-166 (41.3 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Aqua Jet vs. 160 HP / 28 Def Blaziken: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Aqua Jet vs. 160 HP / 28 Def Blaziken: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken in Electric Terrain: 207-244 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

You sacrifice immediate speed for the ability to take hits in a pinch, mitigating blaze's reliance on screens, while still dishing out powerful hits, taking significantly less recoil from flare blitz in the process with the hp investment.

- +2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Toxapex: 231-273 (75.9 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +1 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 395-465 (103.4 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- +2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 356-421 (103.4 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- +2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 419-493 (99.7 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
- +2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 434-512 (113.3 - 133.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So there you go, I didn't put any physical def investment on lando, fini, and hippo because spd variants have been more popular lately, another thing blaziken can take advantage of.

Lmk what you guys think, I have been having fantastic success with this set even outside of ho, though with screens support the calcs get mental.

 

[airfare]

Archer Kirby

​

Heatran counters: heal bellrestmagma misses...

I wanted to create this post to identify one of my personal biggest issues with SS OU, and easily the most unhealthy and restrictive force, both while teambuilding and ingame. Heatran is able to effortlessly wear down and trap the vast majority of possible defensive answers in the tier with the combination of Magma Storm + Taunt + Toxic, while comfortably forcing chip on offensive answers. It can easily overwhelm some of the most common checks to it, like Hippowdon and Slowking (and its Galarian form), in as little as two switch-ins. Its colorful coverage has led to some newer innovations, letting Heatran target some more checks specifically - like Grassy Terrain Nature Power or Solar Beam for Swampert, Hippowdon, and Gastrodon, or Heavy Slam for Tapu Fini and Galarian Slowking (while providing more defensive use against Clefable and Dragapult). Even some of the "hard counters" listed above can be annoyed by Taunt and forced into less-than-ideal 50-50 situations between hitting Heatran and healing - especially scary when Toxiced. Its defensive typing grants it almost free switch-ins on a multitude of Pokemon and, combined with its solid bulk, means that it's incredibly useful defensively for a wallbreaker, able to check most of the special attackers in the tier while remaining one of the top frogs in the tier offensively.

Heatran differentiates itself from other wallbreakers in OU for two reasons: its defensive use and its lack of a viable/splashable defensive answer. As I've already mentioned, its bulk and typing give it free entry vs several prominent Fairy-, Psychic- and Steel-types in the metagame. Compare this to other similarly polarizing wallbreakers, like Kyurem, Tapu Lele, and Dragapult, whose reliance on their item to wallbreak means that they can be easily pressured with chip damage and have extremely limited switch-in opportunities. Heatran is often able to demolish defensive teams by picking off Pokemon every time it enters, which brings me to my next point - Heatran doesn't really have a consistently splashable answer for most defensive teams. Its existence has singlehandedly catapulted defensive Dragonite and Gastrodon sets into existence, who are able to deal with Heatran but have other unforgivably damning flaws or don't accomplish much else. In previous generations, the premier Heatran counter - and a continued staple of all balance/semistall/stall teams for the past two generations - is Gliscor, who exhibited a perfect combination of the speed tier to be immune to Taunt, Poison Heal to offset Magma Storm damage and immunity to Toxic, and the defensive typing to consistently force Heatran out while able to eat repeated hits. Without Gliscor, defensive teams this generation don't really have any ways to pressure Heatran and are inevitably shut down by its repeated entry and harassment via Magma Storm, Taunt, and status.

While taking most of this into account, I'm still not entirely sure about any possible action to be taken regarding Heatran. Offensive teams, which make up the vast majority of the metagame right now, can mostly scrape by while using offensive checks like Urshifu-R, Dragapult, and Tapu Fini, and some different techs, like Shed Shell/Light Screen Toxapex and Dragon Tail on Slowking, have been seen for more consistent counterplay on defensive teams. The metagame has gotten to the point where most people have adapted to Heatran's presence - but even so, it is one of the most efficient and potent means of forcing progress in the tier.

WCOP Semifinals: [GER] Gefährlicher Random vs McMeghan [EUR] - Here, Gefährlicher Random's Heatran provides consistent and threatening pressure against McMeghan's sole soft checks of Toxapex and Landorus-T while switching into Corviknight and Tapu Lele virtually for free the whole game.
WCOP Quarterfinals: [GER] LNumbers vs elodin [BRA] - Although LNumbers' Heatran doesn't win here, I thought it'd be cool to show a unique application of Nature Power --> Moonblast Heatran being used here alongside Tapu Fini to blow back some of the more common Dragon-type checks like Hydreigon and Garchomp.
WCOP Quarterfinals: [USS] Eo Ut Mortus vs Confide [USM] - In this replay, Eo uses Heatran very productively to easily weaken Confide's Landorus-T and eliminate the opposing Galarian Slowking with Heavy Slam for an easy endgame using Tapu Koko to clean up.

thank u Tricking Skypenguin Gomi for helping me proofread this

 

[Mwitishi]

I wanted to share with you guys a blaziken set I came up with

Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 28 Def / 68 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Flare Blitz
- Thunder Punch

Just as a heads up, this EV spread isn't fully optimized. You are hitting 234 Spe with 339 Atk: you can get more Atk with the same speed tier using this spread instead: 160 HP / 168 Atk / 28 Def / 152 Spe, with an Adamant nature. The extra attack makes little difference, but if it can improve some rolls it's worth (the Hippowdon calc you posted becomes a guaranteed OHKO).

 

[MrHands]

Aye just ban trapping moves under Shadow Tag / Arena Trap clause. Boom, no more Heatran issues, no more weird Funbro complex bans, no more random Block / Whirlpool cheese that leads to 40 turns of PP stall.

Seems like a simple solution to a problem that keeps popping up in a variety of forms.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Aye just ban trapping moves under Shadow Tag / Arena Trap clause. Boom, no more Heatran issues, no more weird Funbro complex bans, no more random Block / Whirlpool cheese that leads to 40 turns of PP stall.

Seems like a simple solution to a problem that keeps popping up in a variety of forms.

What are you on? You either ban the pokemon, or the move if it makes the metagame uncompetitive which it does not. If heatran is broken it will be banned

 

[MrHands]

What are you on? You either ban the pokemon, or the move if it makes the metagame uncompetitive which it does not. If heatran is broken it will be banned

Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, Moody, and Power Construct were banned. Baton Pass is banned. Double Team / Evasion moves are banned. OHKO moves are banned. Dynamax is banned. Sleep Clause alters the way sleep moves can be used to balance a mechanic broken in singles.

Let's not sit here and pretend the only way for Smogon to take action is to "ban the Pokemon".

 

[Gomi]

my dude just because you didn't bother to scout for Block Spite pex one time doesn't mean it's on the same level as as Shadow Tag


There's a huge difference between having to click a move that your opponent can react to if they know what you might be trying to do and getting caught on the switch or on a pivot and being completely annilated without much you can do to combat it bc its just an inherent bonus they have. The only real exception here is pursuit and that isn't even in this gen so who cares.

editting because i dont wanna double post but i wanted to reply: Funbro isn't banned for the same reason as Shadow Tag and you damn well know it isn't, it's incredibly dishonest to imply something banned for the sake of creating endless battles despite being kinda bad is in the same ballpark as borderline objectively unbalanced mechanics

 

[MrHands]

my dude just because you didn't bother to scout for Block Spite pex one time doesn't mean it's on the same level as as Shadow Tag

You're right, we should un-ban funbro.

There's a huge difference between having to click a move that your opponent can react to if they know what you might be trying to do and getting caught on the switch or on a pivot and being completely annilated without much you can do to combat it

Edit: Yeah obviously they're different. Shadow Tag is strictly superior to Arena Trap, but both are gone because of the negative effects they have on the meta.

Heatran has some obvious issues and the majority stem from Magma Storm. We've seen Block be complex banned on Slowbro (and others I guess) due to the issues it causes. Even things like Block Toxapex really aren't a skill rewarding mechanic and if you want to hand wave it by "just scout lol" then you're playing sub-optimally to scout for a niche set. I'm not saying any one of these things is especially broken (despite your strawman argument claiming I said that) but trapping moves have again and again been problems that need solving.

You could easily say that trapping moves aren't broken on every Pokemon but the same logic applies to Shadow Tag, Moody (poor Bidoof), Double Team etc. Sometimes blanket bans of bad mechanics help more than they hurt.

Edit 2 stop fukin editing:

editting because i dont wanna double post but i wanted to reply: Funbro isn't banned for the same reason as Shadow Tag and you damn well know it isn't, it's incredibly dishonest to imply something banned for the sake of creating endless battles despite being kinda bad is in the same ballpark as borderline objectively unbalanced mechanics

It was banned because trapping allows a bad mechanic to be detrimental to the game. Obviously Smogon isn't going to ban trapping moves. Seems like the council is unwilling to test Heatran and even if they did it doesn't appear that there's an overwhelming amount of pro-ban support. But keep in mind for a very, VERY long time the community was willing to tolerate Dugtrio, and even test + re-test Shadow Tag through multiple gens. Today it's universally accepted that Dugtrio and similar Pokemon should go nowhere near OU as the effects are horrible to the way the game is played. Trapping moves are currently tolerated but as more and more issues form from them who's to say if in the eventual future the community will finally just say no to a bad mechanic?

 

[BT89]

You're right, we should un-ban funbro.

You’re really pulling out the dishonest card here, huh? You know that Funbro isn’t banned for the same reasons as the other stuff. Don’t try to be spiteful as an argument with stupid points. Arguing that a gimmick tech is on par with unbalanced stuff is wrong, and you know it.

Anyways, trapping is honestly fine for now. It doesn’t really impact anything heavily outside of Heatran match ups, which to be fair, is pretty big. But everything Gomi said stands up, you aren’t really forced to run counterplay to these Block users anyways, they are usually niche at best and have enough counterplay.

 

[Baloor]

comparing magma storm to block pex is incredibly unfair lmao. heatran loses nothing from running magma storm, literally nothing at all, block pex functions as a one time lure to either ferro or pex and is almost useless outside of that role. fuck block pex cant run haze, and due to that, there is situations where you are actively harming your team. heatran on the other hand doesnt suffer from that problem as magma storm is a primary part of its kit. this is honestly the situation for most trapping moves in the tier outside of tran w/ magma storm. like as another example, you gain very little from running whirlpool fini outside of one or two mus. im not saying these sets are bad just heatran with magma storm is infinitely times better than whatever other comparison you can pull out thats relevant to the current metagame. its not even like magma storm is the problem with tran either, its the addition of what utility tran gets that makes it very annoying, hence why people are talking about tran and not trapping moves.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, Moody, and Power Construct were banned. Baton Pass is banned. Double Team / Evasion moves are banned. OHKO moves are banned. Dynamax is banned. Sleep Clause alters the way sleep moves can be used to balance a mechanic broken in singles.

Let's not sit here and pretend the only way for Smogon to take action is to "ban the Pokemon".

Shadow Tag, Arena Trap are aura abilities that cannot be countered, stuff like in gen 5 NU against shadow tag you run shed shell alomomola just to be safe against it, and have to deticate your entire team to it. Arena trap is broken since I can just trap any pokemon that my team would struggle against like heatran, toxapex, excadrill, tyranitar. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-arena-trap-dugtrio-arena-trap-is-banned.3671517/ Here is a reason why DPP banned arena trap. Double team and evasion moves are banned since they create an uncompetitive move since you are not supposed to risk hitting 100% moves and always be scared if it is.

Here is a video on why evasion moves or abilities are uncompetitive. Dynamax is banned due to how op it is and unpredictability of it. Power construct was just zygarde being broken with it at that time and alone it was fine at that time. Sleep clause is there to not cause "i can spore your entire team, haha you cannot play around it" https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sleep-clause-in-generation-8.3656311/ A post why sleep clause was re-introduced to gen 8. Magma storm is a part of heatrans kit, Why did we not ban wicked blow on urshifu? why did we not ban pyro ball? Because smogon just does not work that way, i am sure others will fully explain to you why that is the case.

 

[Dece1t]

comparing magma storm to block pex is incredibly unfair lmao. heatran loses nothing from running magma storm, literally nothing at all, block pex functions as a one time lure to either ferro or pex and is almost useless outside of that role. fuck block pex cant run haze, and due to that, there is situations where you are actively harming your team. heatran on the other hand doesnt suffer from that problem as magma storm is a primary part of its kit. this is honestly the situation for most trapping moves in the tier outside of tran w/ magma storm. like as another example, you gain very little from running whirlpool fini outside of one or two mus. im not saying these sets are bad just heatran with magma storm is infinitely times better than whatever other comparison you can pull out thats relevant to the current metagame. its not even like magma storm is the problem with tran either, its the addition of what utility tran gets that makes it very annoying, hence why people are talking about tran and not trapping moves.

Heatran can lose something out of it, because Magna Storm not only has low accuracy, but it’s limited to 8 PP. To say that Heatran can click it for free should really come with an * to be fair.

 

[tigers jaw]

trapping moves allow for more reasonable counterplay that is dependant upon player choice

trapping abilities do not

this is the meaningful distinction between the two

 

[julian113]

Just as a heads up, this EV spread isn't fully optimized. You are hitting 234 Spe with 339 Atk: you can get more Atk with the same speed tier using this spread instead: 160 HP / 168 Atk / 28 Def / 152 Spe, with an Adamant nature. The extra attack makes little difference, but if it can improve some rolls it's worth (the Hippowdon calc you posted becomes a guaranteed OHKO).

Nice catch! I'll change my spread to your one, since its the same, just with more attack. Your idea of changing to an adamant nature has sent me down a bit of a rabbit hole, and I ended up with an even bulkier blaziken build, surviving a hippodown eq, and attack investment to 2hko slowbro at +2


Blaziken @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 44 Def / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Blaze Kick
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch

This set trades power for defensive utility, acting as a legitimate defensive check to bisharp and weavile.
- 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Blaziken: 117-138 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- approx. 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Blaziken: 160-189 (43.9 - 51.9%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO (it will never 2hko because knock loses power after first hit)

The main gripe with this set is its inability to secure a guaranteed ohko against corv at +2, but it doesn't ohko with bb, so its not that big of a deal. Blaze kick is chosen over blitz for longevity. More feedback is welcomed. The reason I am working towards a new blaziken spread is because I feel that it as a mon is pretty underexplored. I'm hoping someone can build off these ideas and create a better blaziken set than the traditional sd 252/252 one.

 

[Plushietran]

I want to talk about an underrated pokemon i tried out and liked what it brought to teams :


Glastrier @ Leftovers
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Crash
- High Horsepower

The first thing that stands out about glastrier is its glacial bulk, here are some calcs that just show how absurd its bulk is :

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Glastrier: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
168+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 124-146 (30.6 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Glastrier: 322-379 (79.7 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


This makes it so it cant be reliabely forced out, in combination with its access to swords dance, decent offensive typing makes it a hard to revenge kill and force out wallbreaker that can setup all over defensive pokemon like slowking, corviknight, toxapex (+2 into +0 high horsepower KOs toxapex so you still beat even if it has haze), blissey, and decent odds against clefable too, so it can plug holes into teams fairly easily into highly abusable levels for its teammates to have an easier time lategame, such as calm mind clefable, who also happens to be a good partner for it.


However, it does have defensive stopgaps that it cant get past easily, like buzzwole, iron defense skarmory, tapu fini if packing taunt and rotom-wash are the biggest ones, urshifu also deserves a special mention as it can take glastrier's stab and its banded close combat is one of the very few attacks in the game that is guarenteed to ohko glastrier, while surging strikes can break its substitute, although they arent immovable, buzzwole and skarmory are usually tasked with handling alot of other physical attackers so they can get overwhelmed with correct play and the other dont have instant recovery, so they dont have much longevity,


Another big issue for glastrier is its stealth rocks weakness, as it cant afford to run boots since it needs leftovers too badly to be able to heal its subtitute damage, although this weakness isnt that hard to overcome with double defog support to fully make use of the horse's bulk.


The team i used for testing was one i made with tailglowVM ( another indivisual that made a post here about glastrier haha) a while back



TL:DR glastrier is an underrated pokemon and id like to see it being expiremented with more

 

[OvertoneSeries]

You're right, we should un-ban funbro.

Heatran has some obvious issues and the majority stem from Magma Storm. We've seen Block be complex banned on Slowbro (and others I guess) due to the issues it causes. Even things like Block Toxapex really aren't a skill rewarding mechanic and if you want to hand wave it by "just scout lol" then you're playing sub-optimally to scout for a niche set. I'm not saying any one of these things is especially broken (despite your strawman argument claiming I said that) but trapping moves have again and again been problems that need solving.

You could easily say that trapping moves aren't broken on every Pokemon but the same logic applies to Shadow Tag, Moody (poor Bidoof), Double Team etc. Sometimes blanket bans of bad mechanics help more than they hurt.

Funbro (i.e. the one that makes endless battles) is not banned for actively hurting the metagame or being broken in the traditional sense; it's banned so that the Showdown servers don't explode should battles actually last forever.

The regular Block PP stall Slowbros/kings and Pexes are all completely fine for the meta; on a fundamental level, hitting a switch-in that can't beat it with a Block and slowly PP stalling it down is functionally no different from hitting a switch-in with unexpected coverage that kills it. It's simply a way to remove certain opposing Pokemon from play (though slower and more frustrating for the opponent). There is skill involved in the knowledge that Block Slowbros and Pexes are a factor, the building of teams to ensure that they don't dominate, and the prediction and bluffing of moveslots in-game. If you get hit with it, it's because you got outplayed at some point; the counterplay is significantly more consistent than with trapping abilities, where all it takes is a single double-switch pivot move, or Pokemon sacrifice into the target Pokemon. The only thing that makes trapping moves preferable to attacks is that should a switch-in not be threatened the trapper, their options are significantly limited, and the trapper has more opportunity to guess right. However, low-damage or no-damage trapping moves make that gain at a sacrifice to their ability to apply more permanent chip to successful switch-ins, and the defensive Pokemon who are usually the only ones capable of making use of trapping lose a significant amount of defensive utility by dedicating a moveslot to a primarily offensive function.

Heatran's Magma Storm is different from other trapping moves because of its high power and damage over time effect; essentially, it gets the best of both worlds by limiting opponent's options while also dealing heavy chip on switch-ins like Tapu Fini and Garchomp. But why would Magma storm be banworthy? Without Heatran's 130 base SpA and STAB, Magma Storm would be unthreatening to most resists and many neutral targets. Without its access to Taunt and Toxic, it would be unable to take advantage of its trapping on most defensive targets. Without its Steel/Fire typing, its longevity could be offset by susceptibility to Toxic or Burn. The problem with banning specific moves or abilities to deal with specific Pokemon is that things are rarely that simple; only when it can be found that it is, in fact, one thing that would make any Pokemon to receive them broken (e.g. Moody, Dynamax, Sand Veil in perma-sand generations) are those single things banned. While Smeargle isn't available this generation, we could still make the argument that Magma Storm is a perfectly fine move on that Pokemon. If you believe Heatran is broken, argue for that.

 

[pulsar512b]

Hello, everyone! We've had a rather eventful past few months: however, it's finally time for what you all have been waiting for: the usage statistics! Let's look into it.
[snip]
Here are the usual questions:

1. What were the most notable increases and decreases, and why do you think these mons are used more/less now?
2. What increases or decreases surprised you the most?
3. Among the mons with increased usage, what sets have you been using and enjoying?
4. Among the mons with decreased usage, what are your favorite sets for those mons?
5. What are your favorite mons to use in the current metagame?
6. What mons do you predict will continue to see increased usage?
7. What mons are you expecting to see a declining usage from?
8. What are some of your favorite cores to use?
9. How do you feel about the metagame?
10. Have you used any of the Pokemon mentioned above? If so, how did they perform for you?
11. Are there any prominent replays from WCoP that you enjoyed and want to share? Any highlights worth discussing?
12: I hope you have a great rest of your day!

If you have any comments, questions, or concerns, feel free to message me or any other moderator! Thanks for reading!

1.
Weavile's rise is by far the most notable rise, and it's a sign of the power Dragapult holds over the metagame and has caused a myriad of changes, with e.g. Scizor rising and Slowking/Bliss slowing down. Volcarona also rose a bit, unsurprisingly. Lele rising is really not a surprise, as it's wallbreaking power is unmatched
2.
Rillaboom has dropped off a bit in usage, which I'm quite surprised at, especially with it's best partners in zone and kart not moving an inch. I suppose the rise of stuff like Scizor and Weavile hampers it.
3.
HDB Weavile- ice shard is the best 4th move, although low kick may be worth on some teams. Specs lele go stonks
4.
Standard nidoking with ice beam and flamethrower as coverage is of course excellent, but you can drop one for superpower as an excellent bliss lure.
4.5 that i made up: what other sets do you like? - Spdef lando god :)
5. Slowking, Corviknight, Weavile, spdef Lando, pult, specs lele, and urshi-rs
6. Weavile for sure, due to it's fantastic power and speed tier.
7. Volcarona, as stuff like spdef lando and heatran rise more and more in response.
8. Slowking+Corviknight, sometimes with Urshifu-RS is my go-to. I also enjoy Skarmory+Slowking+Urshifu-rs altho it's a bit harder to get to work.
9. I think it has a bunch of problems, but is probably the best and most offensive gen 8 has been in ages. Notably, i feel like King's Rock, Dragapult, maybe Heatran should be considered as potential suspects/bans. In addition, a Cinderace test may be in order.
10. I've loved Nidoking, but it certainly has it's share of problems. It worked decently for me, but once I built a better team well... I did a lot better.
11. I'm lazy and have never really paid as much attention to the tournament scene as I should.
12. you too :) we love you ausma, keep being great

 

[Plushietran]

Here are the usual questions:

1. What were the most notable increases and decreases, and why do you think these mons are used more/less now?
2. What increases or decreases surprised you the most?
3. Among the mons with increased usage, what sets have you been using and enjoying?
4. Among the mons with decreased usage, what are your favorite sets for those mons?
5. What are your favorite mons to use in the current metagame?
6. What mons do you predict will continue to see increased usage?
7. What mons are you expecting to see a declining usage from?
8. What are some of your favorite cores to use?
9. How do you feel about the metagame?
10. Have you used any of the Pokemon mentioned above? If so, how did they perform for you?
11. Are there any prominent replays from WCoP that you enjoyed and want to share? Any highlights worth discussing?
12: I hope you have a great rest of your day!

If you have any comments, questions, or concerns, feel free to message me or any other moderator! Thanks for reading!

1- One of the more notable rises imo is buzzwole, as its a reliable answer to many metagame threats that is also a big offensive threat in itself, which a pretty unique role

2-Tapu fini's rise in usage with all of its sets

3- Choice band weavile, and av galarian slowking, as well as sticky hold gastrodon

4- Pelipper and rain in general

5-Toxapex because of its consistency

6- Cloyster has been seeing alot of usage and it doesent seem to be slowing, i think melmetal might continue to grow too although i dont have a good record for predicting metagame shifts

7- Rillaboom

8- Galarian slowking+tapu fini

9-I feel like teambuilding is really restricted because of the combination of all of these threats which makes it hard but its managable for now

10- i have used some of them mainly weavile, buzzwole and urshifu and they preformed well

11- i havent watched all of them so i cant really judge

12- have a good day too!

 

[Negative Charge]

Kings Rock needs to be banned. The current situation is really bad. BW OU and Monotype have banned it but SS OU has to keep it because... three specific people wanted it to stay. At a bare minimum, it's a contentious issue that should be left to the players by suspect.

 

[OneSmogonCopyer]

Kings Rock needs to be banned. The current situation is really bad. BW OU and Monotype have banned it but SS OU has to keep it because... three specific people wanted it to stay. At a bare minimum, it's a contentious issue that should be left to the players by suspect.

Yeah but only really one mon is abusing it. I'd rather ban Cloyster over Kings rock. If you're pissed at Kings Rock cloyster, then just ban Cloyster

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Yeah but only really one mon is abusing it. I'd rather ban Cloyster over Kings rock. If you're pissed at Kings Rock cloyster, then just ban Cloyster

Light clay was banned in UU and below because grimsnarl, a-ninetales, and xatu are fine pokemon without it, and the screens abuser was going to be replaced. But the item here is king's rock, if it was something such as salamencite then we ban the item not the pokemon because the pokemon is fine in OU without it. King's rock is uncompetitive and is generally warrantated for it to banned since there is no reason to keep it and put something out of the hands of the opponent. I should not be punished because cloyster is flinching down by max hp max def toxapex 3-4 times in a row.

 

[Baloor]

how many times is this going to be in metagame discussion, theres a whole policy thread for a reason

 

[UnzipsCrogre]

Light clay was banned in UU and below because grimsnarl, a-ninetales, and xatu are fine pokemon without it, and the screens abuser was going to be replaced. But the item here is king's rock, if it was something such as salamencite then we ban the item not the pokemon because the pokemon is fine in OU without it. King's rock is uncompetitive and is generally warrantated for it to banned since there is no reason to keep it and put something out of the hands of the opponent. I should not be punished because cloyster is flinching down by max hp max def toxapex 3-4 times in a row.

His point is that KR would go with Cloyster and thus KR = Cloyster. KR Cloyster exists due to a unique combination of traits (Skill link, shell smash/icicle spear/shard/rock blast AND physical bulk to actually setup sometimes -- if you lost to any other KR """"user"""" your team prolly got 6-0'd by weavile / bisharp / excadrill t1 anyways.) comparing any of this to screens is odd.

To be a good screens setter you just need light clay(best item if you're a screen setter in the first place) and a way to get up screens 100% of the time.