Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Endrism]

To avoid sparking up more Weavile discussion because for the love of god that's all we talk about lately, Imma start a new discussion:
On Terrakion! thatsajokethatsajoke

What is your current favorite Wallbreaker in the meta?

There's so many good ones flying around right now so I'd love to gather opinions on peoples personal preference. as usual I'll start:


Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Mystic Water
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch / Aqua Jet
- U-turn

A set I've talked about and used many times. Fake Banded Urshifu is a very nice way to catch people off guard. Any unsuspecting victim will see the Surging Damage, think it's banded and swap Ferrothorn thinking nothing of it before taking a HEFTY Close Combat, and eliminating one of the better walls on their team. Sometimes its even okay to take the Barbs damage to further sell the illusion before killing them instantly.

Urshifu also loves the current meta, with Landos, Weaviles, Offensive Trans, and Melmetals running around like crazy, Urshifu takes their hits and strikes back tenfold. Can run T-Punch for Bro, but U-turn gives the momentum plus some good damage already so I usually end up going with Aqua Jet. Other niche options are Bulk Up if you want it to do a little more than just break and Taunt for Demon Mews who try to ruin your life.

 

[myself12]

I've been experimenting with a similar set, but with tapu lele.


Tapu Lele @ Twisted Spoon
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast

One of the biggest issues with lele is that it's hard to break things because you want to spam psyshock/psychic, but at the same time, you want to use focus blast to hit steels and moonblast to hit weavile. This set makes the consequences of mispredicting less harsh. Modest is run because you don't really miss out on much with it. Once the steels are gone, it's really easy to break apart teams with ths.

 

[odt]

To avoid sparking up more Weavile discussion because for the love of god that's all we talk about lately, Imma start a new discussion:
On Terrakion! thatsajokethatsajoke

What is your current favorite Wallbreaker in the meta?

There's so many good ones flying around right now so I'd love to gather opinions on peoples personal preference. as usual I'll start:


Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Mystic Water
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch / Aqua Jet
- U-turn

A set I've talked about and used many times. Fake Banded Urshifu is a very nice way to catch people off guard. Any unsuspecting victim will see the Surging Damage, think it's banded and swap Ferrothorn thinking nothing of it before taking a HEFTY Close Combat, and eliminating one of the better walls on their team. Sometimes its even okay to take the Barbs damage to further sell the illusion before killing them instantly.

Urshifu also loves the current meta, with Landos, Weaviles, Offensive Trans, and Melmetals running around like crazy, Urshifu takes their hits and strikes back tenfold. Can run T-Punch for Bro, but U-turn gives the momentum plus some good damage already so I usually end up going with Aqua Jet. Other niche options are Bulk Up if you want it to do a little more than just break and Taunt for Demon Mews who try to ruin your life.

I like non-choiced Urshi but you'll want to go Adamant so the damage spreads overlap, bluffing that you got low rolls. That T-punch only does 28.4 - 33.5% to Slowbro so Aqua Jet would def be the route I'd go.

In terms of wallbreakers I've been testing a WP MixPult. T-spikes, screens and some lures like LO flamethower Clef for weakening checks help a lot.

Dragapult @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 152 HP / 48 Atk / 152 Def / 36 SpA / 120 Spe
Naive Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Darts

Has someone here played sticky web balance a lot and would care to share some of their experiences? Never really took to any of the setters but I feel it has a lot of potential for saving defensive team spots if you have enough to scare defoggers off. I'd love to see some custom movesets.

 

[Cuddly]

I like non-choiced Urshi but you'll want to go Adamant so the damage spreads overlap, bluffing that you got low rolls. That T-punch only does 28.4 - 33.5% to Slowbro so Aqua Jet would def be the route I'd go

Against Ferrothorn, there are about 6 rolls you would need to get in order for there to be overlap, so there would be like a 5% chance of having the same damage roll.
You also lose so much damage on Close Combat and U-turn, not to mention this strategy relies on taking 3/8th or 7/8th of your health for a cheeky surprise that works only once and against a specific Pokemon.

 

[Red Raven]

To avoid sparking up more Weavile discussion because for the love of god that's all we talk about lately, Imma start a new discussion:
On Terrakion! thatsajokethatsajoke

What is your current favorite Wallbreaker in the meta?

Blacephalon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Trick
- Overheat
- Shadow Ball
- Knock Off

This mon has been and will always be my favorite wall breaker of all time and that's because this mon just allows me to click shadow ball without even thinking too much. Ghost is just a ridiculous typing right now because of how neutered Tyranitar has become and speaking of Tyranitar, the only time I have to think when using this thing is when there is a godzilla on the enemy team or if there is some random av Tornadus running around

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Mystic Water
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch / Aqua Jet
- U-turn

A set I've talked about and used many times. Fake Banded Urshifu is a very nice way to catch people off guard. Any unsuspecting victim will see the Surging Damage, think it's banded and swap Ferrothorn thinking nothing of it before taking a HEFTY Close Combat, and eliminating one of the better walls on their team. Sometimes its even okay to take the Barbs damage to further sell the illusion before killing them instantly.

Urshifu also loves the current meta, with Landos, Weaviles, Offensive Trans, and Melmetals running around like crazy, Urshifu takes their hits and strikes back tenfold. Can run T-Punch for Bro, but U-turn gives the momentum plus some good damage already so I usually end up going with Aqua Jet. Other niche options are Bulk Up if you want it to do a little more than just break and Taunt for Demon Mews who try to ruin your life.

I'm curious tho. Doesn't this mon straight up kills itself if Ferrothorn has rocky helmet instead of lefties?

 

[Cuddly]

I'm curious tho. Doesn't this mon straight up kills itself if Ferrothorn has rocky helmet instead of lefties?

It would take 3/6 or 1/2 from Rocky Helmet and 3/8 from Iron Barb. This makes it so Urshifu-R gets 7/8 HP recoil from one move. You then die using any move after on Ferrothorn.
You’re honestly just better trying to predict or even using Whirlpool, even if Ferro is running Leftovers.

 

[Ctann]

How is Weavile considered broken, when Heatran literally has no answer.

the only matchup that heatran is useless in is against rain.

and maybe it’s poor performing against pure momentum based offense.

apart from that it’s just seriously broken for OU. I’m surprised this isn’t a sentiment shared by enough people.

it comes in on so many Pokémon, invalidating large swathes of otherwise useful Pokémon, due to its typing and bulk.

and once it comes in on those Pokémon, it can threaten every single switch in there is.

theres a few exceptions, like specially defensive pelliper with HDB (this tanks all variants, even specs variants) - unless you’re running Koko and a nature power move - and sometimes other heatran on air balloons (lol).

a Pokémon in OU is as good as it’s ability to:

1. Switch in on threats, and;
2. Deal with its switch ins

heatran can beat or play the long game against every one of its common checks. Seeing as when heatran switches into a Pokémon that it walls, it tends to wall it effortlessly.

I’m surprised that the community bans things like kings rock cloyster with its 40% chance to break checks when you have heatran out there with its 75% or 90% chance to break checks. And with a good team design, 100% chance to break “counters”.

—-


maybe I’m biased .. because I’m running breedable UU teams in OU and struggling to break the 2000 ELO average, usually because beating a well played heatran requires so much investment in checks :(

 

[Ctann]

You may as well drop the pastes, since you linked so many replays. Some of those teams look fun.

Drill and Hippo are other two mons in UU that are borderline OU. We know who they are, and we know what they do - the meta isn't overly favourable to them at the moment, but thats not a fault on the mon itself. They'll come back home to roost in OU in future gens.

Nihilego and Nidoking are two other UU gems who are an absolute blast to use in OU. Neither appreciate Weavile (among other mons) but they have phenomenal coverage and stats. Some of the most fun special breakers for sure.

here’s a paste of a breedable UU team, peak is 1994 ELO, low is about 1860 or so , average is about 1920-1940 range.

https://pokepast.es/e88dad723173df82

Flex positions are excadrill, can be swapped for seismitoad or hippodown. Excadrill improves matchup vs clefable the most. Rotomcan be flexed in with heat, to improve matchup vs non rain zapdos. Primarina can be flexed for crawdaunt or any other breaker.

Warning: auto loses to a well played nidoking

Warning2: you will find sometimes you’ll 6-0 a pro, and sometimes 2-3 mistakes will mean you lose 0-6..

—

Here’s a second team with the core mentioned.

https://pokepast.es/d29977c0c486131b

lots more flexibility in team design. I have rhyperior and Moltres in the most recent iteration, but they’re really not good! You can flex in a hippodown or a seismitoad instead of rhyperior, and moltres can be replaced with just about anything.

you’ll notice the core 4 are irreplaceable pretty quickly tho. With the core 4, the peak of this actually went past 2000 elo. Unfortunately the most recent iteration averaged about 1800s, and the range was from 1650 to 2000 and something whilst experimenting with various other Pokémon.


—-

On topic, the fact that you can viably run all-UU teams and climb the ladder does support the case that a lot of these uu Pokémon are actually really good.

• mandibuzz
• keldeo
• bulu
• aegislash
• primarina
• Rotom-heat

all of those Pokémon deserve raises.

I’ve used rotom-wash and excadrill extensively but I actually think they need drops. Wash is actually good, but the rankings overstate how good. Excadrill is close to useless and relies on its 30% chance to break a check and sweep. Otherwise it’s just handy to have the ground immunity and a rapid spin.

Edit: thought this was the viability rankings thread… leaving all this up anyway because it was an effort to write.. and it’s still relevant

edit 2: browsed the replays again, there were teams like politoed rain, that have been iterated over too many times and have changed since.. but you can definitely run politoed rain viably in OU!!!

I actually think hurricane spam is an under-explored and hence under-prepared for strategy in OU. This is because most checks for hurricane spam can easily be counter-checked by rain staples and Pokémon that benefit from rain like Seismitoad and rotom. A lot of Pokémon that can check hurricane spam also hate mis-predicting on switch ins.

 

[Lord Xen III]

Thoughts on the following Weavile set in this meta ?:



Weavile @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Taunt
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard

Taunt is an interesting option I found out about recently when encountering a cheesy Sash HO team that had Taunt Weavile on the ladder.



At first glance, it expedites Weavile's ability to break through Toxapex and possibly other fat checks/and counters and of course do the usual nice things Taunt does

 

[myself12]

Thoughts on the following Weavile set in this meta ?:



Weavile @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Taunt
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard

Taunt is an interesting option I found out about recently when encountering a cheesy Sash HO team that had Taunt Weavile on the ladder.



At first glance, it expedites Weavile's ability to break through Toxapex and possibly other fat checks/and counters and of course do the usual nice things Taunt does

Seems interesting, but you don't have good ice stab, which makes it harder to break past Clef, Corv, and others. Also, most of weavile's defensive answers have a way to threaten weavile offensively or with scald burns, so weavile doesn't want to take their attacks.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Thoughts on the following Weavile set in this meta ?:



Weavile @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Taunt
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard

Taunt is an interesting option I found out about recently when encountering a cheesy Sash HO team that had Taunt Weavile on the ladder.



At first glance, it expedites Weavile's ability to break through Toxapex and possibly other fat checks/and counters and of course do the usual nice things Taunt does

you should replace ice shard with axel as this allows you to hit clef... and low kick weavile drops ice shard so u should drop ice shard for taunt.. as this gives it a better stall MU

 

[Xenocide88]

Even further, if you're trying to break, it's much easier to go life orb + adamant. +2 triple axel is obscenely powerful and you can choose to run a coverage to hit fini, ferrothorn, buzzwole, etc as needed based on your team. You're still faster than kartana too.

Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Triple Axel
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab / Low Kick / Psycho Cut (w/ Lele)

As an aside, I've been using non-scale shot SD garchomp with life orb, earthquake, firefang, and aqua tail/poison jab/stone edge. It's another amazing breaker. Teams are way over prepared for stoping garchomp at +1 speed, so I find it's much easier to just blow holes.

I too think non-scale SD Chomp has some viability. On the note of Psycho Cut Weavile and the general discussion on Breakers:
Kartana @ Protective Pads
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Psycho Cut

I've been experimenting a bit with this on a Tapu Lele+Slowbro team, and it's had some promise in breaking past Buzzwole, Zapdos, and the odd Volcarona that tries to fish for a Flame Body burn. So many things can run Knock Off that I don't really miss having it.

 

[Xenocide88]

What you're looking for is the mighty CRIT kartana.

Kartana @ Razor Claw
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Knock Off
- Psycho Cut

The expected value of night slash is to low, so don't run that.

I don't think you can afford to run Knock Off over Sacred Sword. You essentially just hard lose to every steel in the tier. Heatran, Ferro, Corv, even Zone, will all get a million free switches into you without the fighting type coverage.

To me Leaf Blade and Sacred Sword are largely non-negotiable because you need a strong stab, and fighting is the best breaking coverage Kartana has access to otherwise. If this thing had better coverage it would be a major problem.

 

[viivian]

To avoid sparking up more Weavile discussion because for the love of god that's all we talk about lately, Imma start a new discussion:
On Terrakion! thatsajokethatsajoke

What is your current favorite Wallbreaker in the meta?

There's so many good ones flying around right now so I'd love to gather opinions on peoples personal preference. as usual I'll start:


Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Mystic Water
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch / Aqua Jet
- U-turn

A set I've talked about and used many times. Fake Banded Urshifu is a very nice way to catch people off guard. Any unsuspecting victim will see the Surging Damage, think it's banded and swap Ferrothorn thinking nothing of it before taking a HEFTY Close Combat, and eliminating one of the better walls on their team. Sometimes its even okay to take the Barbs damage to further sell the illusion before killing them instantly.

Urshifu also loves the current meta, with Landos, Weaviles, Offensive Trans, and Melmetals running around like crazy, Urshifu takes their hits and strikes back tenfold. Can run T-Punch for Bro, but U-turn gives the momentum plus some good damage already so I usually end up going with Aqua Jet. Other niche options are Bulk Up if you want it to do a little more than just break and Taunt for Demon Mews who try to ruin your life.

probably either kartana or garchomp, those two can 2HKO absolutely anything after a swords dance boost

also gotta appreciate specs lele/volc as well as banded weavile/tyranitar

 

[Xenocide88]

probably either kartana or garchomp, those two can 2HKO absolutely anything after a swords dance boost

also gotta appreciate specs lele/volc as well as banded weavile/tyranitar

Band Tar is such a terrifying mon right now. And it gives you so many relevant auxiliary qualities as well.

 

[Me Nub Spare Me]

Is Ferrothorn A Viable Offense Mon
For most of the OU meta it hasn't.
I've came up with a very surprising moveset that will surprise opponents

Ferrothorn @ Focus Sash
Ability: Anticipation
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Explosion

What are the thoughts?

 

[viivian]

Is Ferrothorn A Viable Offense Mon
For most of the OU meta it hasn't.
I've came up with a very surprising moveset that will surprise opponents

Ferrothorn @ Focus Sash
Ability: Anticipation
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Explosion

What are the thoughts?

why focus sash? unless your opponent is specs zard on sun, you're most likely not getting OHKOed as ferrothorn, especially not with max HP investment.

outside of that, ferrothorn has some potential as an offensive threat in trick room, but it's mostly outdone by melmetal in that regard.

 

[Xenocide88]

Is Ferrothorn A Viable Offense Mon
For most of the OU meta it hasn't.
I've came up with a very surprising moveset that will surprise opponents

Ferrothorn @ Focus Sash
Ability: Anticipation
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Explosion

What are the thoughts?

My thoughts are it's not good. Anticipation is fairly lack luster compared to the guaranteed progress Iron Barbs offers. The coverage on the set is also really ineffective, grass/steel doesn't break a lot, and you ironically even get checked by something as frail as Blacephalon. Focus sash does basically nothing for you either.

You can use Ferro to break to a degree as opposed to hazard setting, but it's strength is as an attrition breaker where it can whittle down its opponents. Iron Defense or Curse sets illustrate this best. Outside of that a meme-y choice band set would be it's other offensive option.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

what do you guys think of ID amneisia registeel... sounds great against corviknight and lele who it uses it as setup fother and can boost out of control esp if they do not have pex, slowbro, or taunt nature madness fini

 

[Ruparajan]

What do you guys think of my ranking?
Edit - Venu should be put in C+. (658Greninja I wanted to keep venu and torkoal both on C+ but I made a mistake while dragging and did not notice.

 

[658Greninja]

View attachment 431524

What do you guys think of my ranking? (Made from the thing posted in the viability ranking thread).

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-thread-see-page-90-post-2242.3674058/page-96 Would just post it on the VR thread.

Also if Venusaur is gonna be in B tier, put Torkoal beside it since these two are unanimously on every serious sun team.

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

I haven't played or paid much attention to SS in a long time since I don't personally enjoy the tier too much, but I've been watching some of the World Cup replays and what struck me was how prevalent Excadrill was. Back when I played SS (which ended sometime shortly after the Urshifu suspect/ban), I remember Drill being almost universally dismissed and I know it dropped to UU; it was largely similar with TTar as well but from what I remember, it stayed in OU largely due to defensively checking some notable threats, although it was still considered substantially less viable than in any previous gen. However, Drill is at 9.16% usage and has a 65.71% win rate in World Cup so far and it seems that the Sand Rush set is mostly being used (obviously alongside TTar). I feel like I haven't seen much discussion about Drill, but there's a good chance I've just missed it by not paying attention to SS, so is the increasing prominence of Drill a known meta trend or has it been an unexpected development in the first round of World Cup?

 

[Xenocide88]

I haven't played or paid much attention to SS in a long time since I don't personally enjoy the tier too much, but I've been watching some of the World Cup replays and what struck me was how prevalent Excadrill was. Back when I played SS (which ended sometime shortly after the Urshifu suspect/ban), I remember Drill being almost universally dismissed and I know it dropped to UU; it was largely similar with TTar as well but from what I remember, it stayed in OU largely due to defensively checking some notable threats, although it was still considered substantially less viable than in any previous gen. However, Drill is at 9.16% usage and has a 65.71% win rate in World Cup so far and it seems that the Sand Rush set is mostly being used (obviously alongside TTar). I feel like I haven't seen much discussion about Drill, but there's a good chance I've just missed it by not paying attention to SS, so is the increasing prominence of Drill a known meta trend or has it been an unexpected development in the first round of World Cup?

I'd hazard to guess this is for a few reasons
1. Bulky Darks are very good as ghost checks right now. Tyranitar also instantly helps with all of your non-sand weather match ups.
2. Most team structures have at least one steel and one ground. Together these two cover a lot of team requirements for just two slots in builder.
3. Part of the strength of it being a two slot insert means it can fit onto a huge array of structures without requiring the team to be played around sand, opening up many options to answer match up issues.

It's not really so much the sand is the best weather, I think objectively that still falls to Rain, it's more so that TTar+Drill is such a strong 2 mon combo.

 

[JTD783]

What’s with the recent Clefable hype? It hasn’t impressed me much since DLC 2 arrived and it doesn’t outright beat most of the A- through S rank mons. Has anything changed to make the standard set (Softboiled Moonblast filler filler with Lefties) any better, or has LO improved significantly?

I tried reading the OU strategy dex entry but it’s so outdated that it talks about beating Kyurem lol.

 

[Endrism]

What’s with the recent Clefable hype? It hasn’t impressed me much since DLC 2 arrived and it doesn’t outright beat most of the A- through S rank mons. Has anything changed to make the standard set (Softboiled Moonblast filler filler with Lefties) any better, or has LO improved significantly?

I tried reading the OU strategy dex entry but it’s so outdated that it talks about beating Kyurem lol.

CM Life Orb Thunder is such a good wincon. Beats a surprising amount of the metagame.
I have also found myself using Wish Cleric Clef more often, which while not being meta, is still a really good fit on specific teamstyles.
Honestly, I approve of the recent uptick in Clef love as I think it deserves it.