Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Usage Stats in post #581]

[Robot7620]

An HO dual-screens lead that I think is sorta fun:

Vanilluxe @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Serious Nature
- Aurora Veil
- Taunt
- Explosion
- Blizzard/Freeze Dry/filler

Playing with this is relatively obvious, but it manages to get the veil up in most games. Explosion is more for self-KO than for damage. Although there are some leads where Blizzard + Explosion will KO.

Vanilluxe.... just really sucks.
If you really want a veil lead run Ninetales-Alola.
Plus there's no reason to not run Timid or not add 4 extra EVs.
And, Ninetales Alola can actually put in work besides setting up hail and screens.
But really, hail is really disappointing. There's really no good abusers (especially this gen because of dexit) and all the good slush rushers.... really come down to Beartic. And Beartic is also pretty disappointing ngl.

 

[chimp]

Vanilluxe.... just really sucks.
If you really want a veil lead run Ninetales-Alola.
Plus there's no reason to not run Timid or not add 4 extra EVs.
And, Ninetales Alola can actually put in work besides setting up hail and screens.
But really, hail is really disappointing. There's really no good abusers (especially this gen because of dexit) and all the good slush rushers.... really come down to Beartic. And Beartic is also pretty disappointing ngl.

Alolan-Ninetales is currently unreleased and can not be used in standard OU play.

 

[Vengeance417]

Alolan-Ninetales is currently unreleased and can not be used in standard OU play.

Even with Ninetales-Alola in the meta, I still think Vanilluxe will carve niches for itself as a Veil setter thanks to being noticeably stronger and having access to Taunt + Explosion, with the main downside over Ninetales being that it's slower.

 

[Robot7620]

Even with Ninetales-Alola in the meta, I still think Vanilluxe will carve niches for itself as a Veil setter thanks to being noticeably stronger and having access to Taunt + Explosion, with the main downside over Ninetales being that it's slower.

No, first off Ninetales-Alola is faster which lets it set screens more reliably and also it arguably has a better typing and a better movepool.
And, while Ninetales-Alola might just make a niche (maybe like C+ at best) the main problem with Vanilluxe is that hail, hands down, sucks. It has nothing going for it. It lost like all of its abusers and is so underhwhelming.

 

[Vengeance417]

No, first off Ninetales-Alola is faster which lets it set screens more reliably and also it arguably has a better typing and a better movepool.
And, while Ninetales-Alola might just make a niche (maybe like C+ at best) the main problem with Vanilluxe is that hail, hands down, sucks. It has nothing going for it. It lost like all of its abusers and is so underhwhelming.

I already acknowledged that Vanilluxe is slower, so I don't know why you're repeating that. The "better movepool" (quite the opposite, actually) doesn't matter when Ninetales can't kill anything with its bad SpA stat and has to salvage its shallow move options by using the unreliable Hypnosis. Lastly, Veil teams aren't built around Hail itself. They're built around Aurora Veil. You don't see Slush Rush users on standard Veil teams, and instead see many of the standard set up sweepers in the meta that aim to abuse the dual screens. Plus, since Ninetales doesn't have Explosion like Vanilluxe does, it either has to hard switch into a teammate or wait however many turns until it dies. Taunt also stops hazards from going up or opposing Defog from removing the Veil.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

No, first off Ninetales-Alola is faster which lets it set screens more reliably and also it arguably has a better typing and a better movepool.
And, while Ninetales-Alola might just make a niche (maybe like C+ at best) the main problem with Vanilluxe is that hail, hands down, sucks. It has nothing going for it. It lost like all of its abusers and is so underhwhelming.

There were only two Slush Rush users last gen (Sandslash and Beartic). Now this gen we got two more (Arctozolt and Arctovish) who both look to be pretty menacing when they outspeed most things and just kill everything with their signature moves

 

[Divine Retribution]

There's no way in hell Hail is going to be a viable playstyle, but Veil =/= Hail. Veil teams focus on abusers who can abuse Aurora Veil specifically, not necessarily Hail in general. You aren't going to see garbage Slush Rush users on it, instead you're going to see powerful setup sweepers like Gyarados, NP Gengar, Kommo-O, etc., as well as wallbreakers like Aegislash and Dracovish who appreciate the effectively doubled bulk, and Defiant users like Bisharp and Braviary who discourage use of Defog. One thing you'll notice is that none of these Pokemon particularly benefit from Hail, but they all benefit from Veil.

In regards to Vanilluxe vs Ninetales, I actually think Taunt and Explosion are enough to give Vanilluxe a valid niche. Taunt prevents slower Defoggers from removing your Screens, Explosion prevents slower Spinners from doing the same (sadly the premier Spinner in OU is Excadrill, who naturally outpaces Vanilluxe). Ninetales has to rely on the much less reliable Hypnosis to accomplish those feats.

 

[hero]

I'm glad you posted this. I never bothered to try luke on HO and it looks promising. It's like Bisharp except with a stronger stab move and better speed. Bisharp is really good of course but it just misses out on important KOs like Corviknight, Ferro, Pex, and Toad due to not having knock off and it looks like Luke nabs those with CC. Also I've seen many corviknight running body press which is frustrating to lose a sweep when corviknight barely tanks the throat chop and KOs back.

Jolly vs Adamant is an issue though. Jolly lets you outspeed excadrill, rotom, and gyarados which you need to hit with CC. The damage goes down to 94% and 88% min to seismitoad and pex respectively. SR keeps them in range though it's shakier. Also EQ vs crunch is picking between pex vs. jellicent and jelly can strength sap you forever without +2 crunch. Regardless I'm giving this a go when I get the chance.

Yeah, Jolly is definetely worth considering, specially if you have spikes it probably is the better choice. It's definitely a choice that heavily depends on your team, same with Crunch over Earthquake. The team I'm using deals with Jellicent pretty well I think, and EQ has been useful more often, specially as Toxapex is overwhelmingly more common than Jellicent.

I promised some replays of Lucario and Crawdaunt doing their thing. They are not the best games neither are they high ladder but I think they are a good showcase of how they work, which is important, since Lucario is notoriously a mon that sounds amazing in paper but in practice tends to not do much.

Lucario taking advantage of a Knock Off mandibuzz to finish the game
A clean sweep against an unorthodox team
Lucario using Sub NP Hydreigon as setup fodder
Surprise Toxapex OHKO
+2 Crawdaunt clean sweeping a typical-ish team

Anyway, the team I built around Lucario has been working well for me but it's far from perfect, so I'd like to see some more people try to build around luke and maybe daunt!

 

[Gary]

So I've noticed that a good amount of people are kinda convinced that Aegislash is like above average but none of its sets really stand out enough to make it top tier, but recently I've been using Specs a lot and I'm 100% convinced that this is probably the best set right now.

Aegislash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Steel Beam
- Close Combat

The Speed is for creeping LO Clef, but you can run like a little bit less for Mandi, which is definitely extremely important for this set's overall success. This dude hits like a fucking truck, like for real. Shadow Ball 2HKOs practically every relevant defensive Pokemon bar like full SpDef Ferro and Gastro, but both of those Pokemon are extremely vulnerable with just minimal chip or a simple SpD drop. The niche SpD walls like Flareon and Centi are also very vulnerable to chip, especially the latter considering it depends so much on Rest. Flash melts SpD Clef and Sylveon, and is also just a great move to use in general when teams are packing Mandi/Hydrei as their Ghost switch-in; Hydrei takes like 80% and Mandi needs to be healthy to switch into it repeatedly, especially when this set outspeeds. Steel Beam is the real tech tho. You do a whopping 76% to Mandi on average and 65% or so to Umbreon, which is just really fucking funny tbh. The best Ghost checks in the tier have the potential to legit lose to this set. Obviously you do 50% of damage to yourself in the process, but the main draw of this set is how it essentially has very limited counters to begin with, and it has the capabilities of luring the few that are considered reliable. It's also just a great move to suicide with when you want to blow up w/e comes in and don't really need Aegi anymore. CC is literally just for always OHKOing T-tar cause there's nothing else to run really.

I've found pairing this set with Hydreigon is super clean. Mandi is often considered a pretty safe switch into every Hydrei set just because of U-turn being able to break the Sub, so you just chip it ever so slightly and nuke it with Aegi, and now Hydreigon is a massive threat. You could also pair with like Pult or Gengar for like some double Ghost shenanigans but I just really prefer Hydreigon as a partner tbh.

 

[Empress Mobile]

No, first off Ninetales-Alola is faster which lets it set screens more reliably and also it arguably has a better typing and a better movepool.
And, while Ninetales-Alola might just make a niche (maybe like C+ at best) the main problem with Vanilluxe is that hail, hands down, sucks. It has nothing going for it. It lost like all of its abusers and is so underhwhelming.

The advantages to using Vanilluxe are a much stronger Blizzard, as well as Explosion which can safely get a teammate on the field while preventing Defog for one turn. Not to mention, as others have pointed out, Alolan Ninetales is unreleased so there's absolutely no reason to even compare it to Vanilluxe, which is currently the best Veil setter. Yes Hail centered teams would be poor given Slush Rush is unreleased on the fossils, but this would be used for Veil teams, not Hail teams. If you were going to say it's outclassed by anything you could maybe argue Grimmsnarl, which is generally more useful. But you can't say it's outclassed by something that literally doesn't exist in the current metagame.

 

[Goodra]

Can we just take a minute to appreciate Araquanid as a Sticky Web setter?

Araquanid @ Focus Sash
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Sticky Web
- Liquidation
- Lunge
- Mirror Coat

It's definitely the slowest setter but it has rarely failed to get webs out for me and with the meta shifting to a bit more bulk it's actually punched some holes in more bulky leads that don't one shot. Liquidation hits hard as a truck thanks to Water Bubble on even some resisted hits with a bonus chance of dropping def. Lunge can lower attack and make a nice alternative STAB to Pokemon weak to bug. Mirror Coat can throw off Rotom which is being used a lot atm and will most likely Switch in to Volt Switch. This thing also does a decent job at checking G.Darm who outside of the rare Rock Slide variant can't 2HKO Araquanid when hazards aren't up and can get OHKO'd in return.
Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Araquanid: 117-138 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Darmanitan-Galar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Water Bubble Araquanid: 111-131 (32.6 - 38.5%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Araquanid: 92-108 (27 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Darmanitan-Galar U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Araquanid: 130-153 (38.2 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Darmanitan-Galar: 326-386 (92.8 - 109.9%)

Naturally this is only for Choice Scarf as Choice Band G.Darms turns into 2HKOs unless it comes in on Earthquake with no hazards up. Araquanid is definitely fringe at best but I feel it does better in this meta as a Sticky Web setter compared to last gen and has a small niche over Ribombee.

 

[Corona]

Can we just take a minute to appreciate Araquanid as a Sticky Web setter?

Araquanid @ Focus Sash
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Sticky Web
- Liquidation
- Lunge
- Mirror Coat

It's definitely the slowest setter but it has rarely failed to get webs out for me and with the meta shifting to a bit more bulk it's actually punched some holes in more bulky leads that don't one shot. Liquidation hits hard as a truck thanks to Water Bubble on even some resisted hits with a bonus chance of dropping def. Lunge can lower attack and make a nice alternative STAB to Pokemon weak to bug. Mirror Coat can throw off Rotom which is being used a lot atm and will most likely Switch in to Volt Switch. This thing also does a decent job at checking G.Darm who outside of the rare Rock Slide variant can't 2HKO Araquanid when hazards aren't up and can get OHKO'd in return.
Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Araquanid: 117-138 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Darmanitan-Galar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Water Bubble Araquanid: 111-131 (32.6 - 38.5%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Araquanid: 92-108 (27 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Darmanitan-Galar U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Araquanid: 130-153 (38.2 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Darmanitan-Galar: 326-386 (92.8 - 109.9%)

Naturally this is only for Choice Scarf as Choice Band G.Darms turns into 2HKOs unless it comes in on Earthquake with no hazards up. Araquanid is definitely fringe at best but I feel it does better in this meta as a Sticky Web setter compared to last gen and has a small niche over Ribombee.

I'm curious why you noted Focus Sash when it seems Araquanid would benefit much more from something like Leftovers (keeps its bulk intact, allows it to switch in CS Darm multiple times, etc.), or even something like Mystic Water (Fringe, but tacks on an extra 19% damage average on average with Liquidation which could turn some 2HKO's into OHKO's like on Darm)

Side-note: Don't know how valuable the attack drop is, but Leech Life hits almost as hard, and has the benefit of restoring HP which Araquanid has trouble keeping its health up otherwise

 

[Goodra]

I'm curious why you noted Focus Sash when it seems Araquanid would benefit much more from something like Leftovers (keeps its bulk intact, allows it to switch in CS Darm multiple times, etc.), or even something like Mystic Water (Fringe, but tacks on an extra 19% damage average on average with Liquidation which could turn some 2HKO's into OHKO's like on Darm)

Side-note: Don't know how valuable the attack drop is, but Leech Life hits almost as hard, and has the benefit of restoring HP which Araquanid has trouble keeping its health up otherwise

Sash was just to guarentee Webs. Leech Life is definitely a decent alternative to Lunge. Leftovers and Mystic Water are good alternatives if Sticky Web is vital.

 

[Oiseau Bleu]

I recently saw that Drifblim finally obtained a decent recovery move: Strenght Sap. Drifblim also has acces to a lot of utility move like defog, wow, haze, tailwind, destinity bond, trick, haze, clear smog, disable and memento. It incredible base stat in HP (150) is a good asset for a defensive pokemon even it has a 44/54 def stats. Drifblim has a correct type (ghost+flying) with 3 useful immunities (ground normal and fight), 3 resistances (grass, poison and bug) and 5 weaknesses (ice, dark, ghost, electric, and rock). I propose this set:

Drifblim (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Leftovers
Ability: Flare Boost
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Will-O-Wisp
- Defog
- Hex

With this set, Drifblim can check some phisical threat prensent in the meta, like Gyarados, Excadrill, Hawlucha, Corvinight and Cinderace. It also has defog and it can also defog easily on Corsola and Ferrothorn. Moreover, Flare Boost punishes the burn from defensive mon like Corsola or Toxapex (when Drifblim is burned, its special attacks have 1.5x power). Hex paired well with wow (the power of hex increase when the opponent is statued) and takes advantage of the STAB. Strenght Sap allows to Drifblim have a good recovery move. Nothing else to say, this is just a defoger.

Some Calcs:
Defensive calcs:
252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 147-174 (29.2 - 34.5%) -- 5.6% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 220-259 (43.7 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 154-183 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- 56.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 194-230 (38.5 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Hawlucha Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 178-211 (35.3 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Hawlucha Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 148-176 (29.4 - 34.9%) -- 12.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 208-246 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (122 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 144-169 (28.6 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 133-157 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Offensive Calcs:
0 SpA Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery and burn damage
0 SpA Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corsola-Galar: 192-228 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course, i know that Drifblim isn't a good pokemon (mandibuzz is cleary better: it has access to roost and has a better typing) but, in contrary to the last gen, it has a reason to be played especialy in stall teams, which appreciate its ability to deal with a lot of defensive and offensive pokemon.

Edit: FlareBoost is unreleased

 

[Pabloaram]

A fun silly Prankster gimmick

Grimmsnarl (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Bulk Up
- Play Rough

This is based off an old Tornadus gimmick that used the same idea. Prankster allowed for priority healing, guaranteeing a defence boost before your opponent hits you and by using sleep talk, indirectly giving you priority 90 bp fairy stab. Obviously it's not the most consistent set in the world and you're probably better of running normal bulk up, but having rest does allow it to stay healthy while still setting up on some physical threats.

You have 3 good option for a resttalk Grimmsnarl
Play Rought: great phys stab Fairy- with 95 ac
Spirit Break: less dmg (75bp over 90 of PR), 100 ac and always drop Spa
Dark Lariat: Dark- Stab, ignore def boost

 

[Robot7620]

The advantages to using Vanilluxe are a much stronger Blizzard, as well as Explosion which can safely get a teammate on the field while preventing Defog for one turn. Not to mention, as others have pointed out, Alolan Ninetales is unreleased so there's absolutely no reason to even compare it to Vanilluxe, which is currently the best Veil setter. Yes Hail centered teams would be poor given Slush Rush is unreleased on the fossils, but this would be used for Veil teams, not Hail teams. If you were going to say it's outclassed by anything you could maybe argue Grimmsnarl, which is generally more useful. But you can't say it's outclassed by something that literally doesn't exist in the current metagame.

Ok, so the reason why Ninetales Alola stands out as a better veil setter is precisely because of its higher speed.
It also has a better typing, better movepool, and can actually put in work unlike Vanilluxe who simply explodes after setting up veil. While a 4x weakness to steel isn't nice, Ferro and Corv often don't run Gyro Ball or Iron Head respectively (especially the latter). And, Vanilluxe has mediocre bulk as best plus low speed means you're taking your chances on using it as a veil setter.
But I guess it's the best we have until Ninetales-Alola comes out.

 

[chimp]

Ok, so the reason why Ninetales Alola stands out as a better veil setter is precisely because of its higher speed.
It also has a better typing, better movepool, and can actually put in work unlike Vanilluxe who simply explodes after setting up veil. While a 4x weakness to steel isn't nice, Ferro and Corv often don't run Gyro Ball or Iron Head respectively (especially the latter). And, Vanilluxe has mediocre bulk as best plus low speed means you're taking your chances on using it as a veil setter.
But I guess it's the best we have until Ninetales-Alola comes out.

Don't discount the ability to explode so easily. Generally speaking Aurora Veil teams are primarily HO, where picking up momentum is huge, Explosion lets it set Veil, then immediately sacrifice itself to potentially bring in a frailer set-up sweeper for free. Sort of like a very volatile, one-use U-turn. In this case its slow speed actually works to its advantage.

 

[iAruban]

Why are you discussing a mon that isnt even available?
To not make this a oneliner, duggy needs to go quick after G-Darm. I refuse to play sand when exca and ttar get nullified by a single mon along with toxtricity.

 

[Empress Mobile]

Why are you discussing a mon that isnt even available?
To not make this a oneliner, duggy needs to go quick after G-Darm. I refuse to play sand when exca and ttar get nullified by a single mon along with toxtricity.

That is always the problem with Dugtrio. It is so restrictive to teambuilding in almost any metagame it's allowed in. Team Preview really pushed it over the top in gen 5. Whereas in gen 3 and 4 you had to worry about a Porygon2, Gardevoir or opposing Dugtrio coming in for a guaranteed revenge kill, or perhaps giving up a free turn to an unrevealed sweeper that can run through the rest of your team. Team Preview allows for easily mapped out abuse of Dugtrio's trapping capabilities. It was good in gen 3, decent in gen 4, but plainly will always be uncompetitive in any meta with TP regardless of how matchup reliant it's good qualities may be.

 

[Robot7620]

Don't discount the ability to explode so easily. Generally speaking Aurora Veil teams are primarily HO, where picking up momentum is huge, Explosion lets it set Veil, then immediately sacrifice itself to potentially bring in a frailer set-up sweeper for free. Sort of like a very volatile, one-use U-turn. In this case its slow speed actually works to its advantage.

I am most definitely not discounting the ability to explode, so I'm not sure where you pulled that from.
Explosion is useful on suicide leads that have the bulk and/or speed to fullfill their role before going out with a bang.
Vanilluxe meets neither of these criteria. And I'm not sure how slow speed works to an advantangeous Explosion, the faster you explode, you prevent them from Defogging, Spinning, etc.

 

[Jordy]

I am most definitely not discounting the ability to explode, so I'm not sure where you pulled that from.
Explosion is useful on suicide leads that have the bulk and/or speed to fullfill their role before going out with a bang.
Vanilluxe meets neither of these criteria. And I'm not sure how slow speed works to an advantangeous Explosion, the faster you explode, you prevent them from Defogging, Spinning, etc.

Vanilluxe outspeeds both Corviknight and Mandibuzz, the only 2 relevant Defoggers; I genuinely don't understand why that isn't fast enough to use Explosion to success in your eyes. The fact that Excadrill is faster isn't super relevant because Rapid Spin doesn't remove Aurora Veil. Through experience from using both, I definitely believe that you're often better off using Grimmsnarl to set screens, but it's not because Vanilluxe isn't fast or bulky enough.

 

[Robot7620]

Vanilluxe outspeeds both Corviknight and Mandibuzz, the only 2 relevant Defoggers; I genuinely don't understand why that isn't fast enough to use Explosion to success in your eyes. The fact that Excadrill is faster isn't super relevant because Rapid Spin doesn't remove Aurora Veil. Through experience from using both, I definitely believe that you're often better off using Grimmsnarl to set screens, but it's not because Vanilluxe isn't fast or bulky enough.

My point is that it's not fast enough to outspeed stuff that would kill it in one (potentially 2) hits.
Say, for example it's in on an Excadrill.
It doesn't have the speed to set up veil on it, whereas ANinetales does(though it still gets OHKO'd).

 

[Jordy]

My point is that it's not fast enough to outspeed stuff that would kill it in one (potentially 2) hits.
Say, for example it's in on an Excadrill.
It doesn't have the speed to set up veil on it, whereas ANinetales does(though it still gets OHKO'd).

This can easily be avoided through smart positioning. Using suicide leads isn't as simple as literally leading off with them always no matter the matchup.

 

[chimp]

I am most definitely not discounting the ability to explode, so I'm not sure where you pulled that from.
Explosion is useful on suicide leads that have the bulk and/or speed to fullfill their role before going out with a bang.
Vanilluxe meets neither of these criteria. And I'm not sure how slow speed works to an advantangeous Explosion, the faster you explode, you prevent them from Defogging, Spinning, etc.

"can actually put in work unlike Vanilluxe who simply explodes after setting up veil."

The use of phrases like "can actually put in work unlike..." and the word "simply" sort of implies inferiority or dismissiveness. If I misunderstood your position than I apologize.

And whether or not Vanilluxe dies in 2 hits doesn't really matter in this case, its job is to just set up Aurora Veil then screw off or explode. Whether or not it actually gets the explosion off is inconsequential, since it really doesn't hit anything that hard anyway.

 

[Robot7620]

Why are you discussing a mon that isnt even available?
To not make this a oneliner, duggy needs to go quick after G-Darm. I refuse to play sand when exca and ttar get nullified by a single mon along with toxtricity.

How exactly is Dugtrio shredding your sand?
Drill easily outspeeds and KO's it in sand, while TTar breaks its sash.
Even with no bulk investment, TTar lives a max EQ, while it OHKO's with Crunch (or breaks its sash at worse).
0+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 211-250 (100 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Right now, I'm not seeing your point.

This can easily be avoided through smart positioning. Using suicide leads isn't as simple as literally leading off with them always no matter the matchup.

I believe my point still stands.
You're not going to avoid bringing in Vanilluxe for the majority of the match simply because they have an Excadrill, you want it to set up screens as early as possible, but Excadrill will likely be revenge killing (I'm assuming Vanilluxe doesn't have the bulk to tank too many hits especially with rocks).

"can actually put in work unlike Vanilluxe who simply explodes after setting up veil."

The use of phrases like "can actually put in work unlike..." and the word "simply" sort of implies inferiority or dismissiveness. If I misunderstood your position than I apologize.

And whether or not Vanilluxe dies in 2 hits doesn't really matter in this case, its job is to just set up Aurora Veil then screw off or explode. Whether or not it actually gets the explosion off is inconsequential, since it really doesn't hit anything that hard anyway.

But if Vanilluxe dies in 1 hit, it very much matters, since you lost one pokemon in one turn, with no benefits.
And yes, I'm saying Vanilluxe is inferior to Alola-Ninetales, you didn't misunderstand me.