Right my bad, got them mixed up
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v4 (check out posts #483 and 484 for DLC1 info!)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
The new libero Cinderace is definitely the most popular kid on the block now with nearly every OU team running it. It has good firepower and hits quite hard (especially if paired with a Choice Band or Life Orb), but has its flaws:
1. It can be burned by Will-O-Wisp and Scald if libero causes it to change its type. This differentiates it greatly from Greninja since Greninja (usually) doesn't care about burns.
2. If you don't run HDB, Cinderace gets worn down quickly, making hazard control a necessity. But with HDB, you may not get the immediate firepower you want.
3. Most of its best and commonly used moves (Pyro Ball, HJK, Zen Headbutt) are all liable to miss which can be game-changing at times.
My take? I think Cinderace is pretty balanced considering all of its qualities. It is definitely here to stay in OU and will probably cement itself as one of the top-tier threats (subject to the effects of DLC).
So far, I think the best counters to Cinderace are still the bulky waters and arguably Hippowdon. I don't like Hippowdon as much since it doesn't resist fire (i.e. Pyro Ball) so the bulky waters are still the most reliable such as Flame Orb Milotic (which can eat pretty much anything Cinderace throws at it) and Toxapex (just try to avoid Zen Headbutts but hey, Zen Headbutt CAN miss too).
1. It can be burned by Will-O-Wisp and Scald if libero causes it to change its type. This differentiates it greatly from Greninja since Greninja (usually) doesn't care about burns.
2. If you don't run HDB, Cinderace gets worn down quickly, making hazard control a necessity. But with HDB, you may not get the immediate firepower you want.
3. Most of its best and commonly used moves (Pyro Ball, HJK, Zen Headbutt) are all liable to miss which can be game-changing at times.
My take? I think Cinderace is pretty balanced considering all of its qualities. It is definitely here to stay in OU and will probably cement itself as one of the top-tier threats (subject to the effects of DLC).
So far, I think the best counters to Cinderace are still the bulky waters and arguably Hippowdon. I don't like Hippowdon as much since it doesn't resist fire (i.e. Pyro Ball) so the bulky waters are still the most reliable such as Flame Orb Milotic (which can eat pretty much anything Cinderace throws at it) and Toxapex (just try to avoid Zen Headbutts but hey, Zen Headbutt CAN miss too).
Snorlax, in theory, is an extremely good check to numerous balance breakers, whilst also being a reliable win condition. However, in practice, as an avid Snorlax user, I found that the standard curse Snorlax was extremely easy to pressure with these same breakers, since it was rather easy to force it to rest with either status or chip damage and then whittle it down with a breaker since it does nothing while asleep and it very rarely wakes up with more than 50% after rocks chip, at which point the breakers it was meant to counter would easily overwhelm it. Even if a team did not have one of the numerous checks to it, they could sweep by abusing its sleep turns against it and switching into a breaker.
I want to showcase my favorite Snorlax set, that doesn't struggle with the issues I outlined above.
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Def / 108 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Heat Crash
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Sleep talk is by no means an original invention, but gives great value. With a 66% chance of clicking an attacking move hovering around 120 base power, the sleep turns are nightmares for sets lacking sleep talk are now significantly easier to stall out since an opponent could rarely risk taking half from either of Snorlax's attacking moves and is often forced to deal minimal damage with a defensive pokemon like Toxapex, making it a better counter a lot of the most terrifying balance breakers, namely NP Rotom-H, SubCM Primarina, hex Dragapult, specs Aegislash, and CM LO Clefable and Unlike other defensive mons, Snorlax is not remotely passive, earning a 2hko on a good amount of attacking mons, and threatens to cripple them with a paralysis with body slams , which can also help against defensive mons, for instance it is able to beat clef spreads with 152 defense(for lucha) with just a single paralysis, and can 3hko everything besides physical walls, which requires only one para, which is bound to happen over the long run for Snorlax to beat it. This means that Snorlax is able to pivot into a powerful breaker, paralyze a defensive mon if not outright get a kill and potentially rest and sleep talk until its healthy, stopping switchins into offensive mons with its massive attack stat and potential paralysis, making it a momentum gain. The majority of its defensive answers such as Toxapex, Rhyperior, and Hippowdon also beat Curse variants. It works particularly well paired with specs hex Dragapult because of its ability to consistently spread paras, but honestly, the possibilities of pokemon that can abuse paras on common walls are endless.
For the EVs, it has the physical defense to live a +2 Aegislash iron head(and ohko back with heat crash), whilst also maximizing special defense in order to help roles against specs modest Kyurem and sub cm Primarina. Maximum attack investment ensures that it gets a 3hko on 152 def clef, and allows it to 1v1 some breakers that it doesn't already counter like NP Togekiss and NP Hydreigon and making its matchup better against bulky cmers like Primarina and Clefable and allowing it to further mitigate its passivity in sleep talk turns and become an actual threat to bulky builds that cannot simply pivot between one of their numerous answers.
EDIT: Replays(1, 2, 3)
I want to showcase my favorite Snorlax set, that doesn't struggle with the issues I outlined above.
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Def / 108 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Heat Crash
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Sleep talk is by no means an original invention, but gives great value. With a 66% chance of clicking an attacking move hovering around 120 base power, the sleep turns are nightmares for sets lacking sleep talk are now significantly easier to stall out since an opponent could rarely risk taking half from either of Snorlax's attacking moves and is often forced to deal minimal damage with a defensive pokemon like Toxapex, making it a better counter a lot of the most terrifying balance breakers, namely NP Rotom-H, SubCM Primarina, hex Dragapult, specs Aegislash, and CM LO Clefable and Unlike other defensive mons, Snorlax is not remotely passive, earning a 2hko on a good amount of attacking mons, and threatens to cripple them with a paralysis with body slams , which can also help against defensive mons, for instance it is able to beat clef spreads with 152 defense(for lucha) with just a single paralysis, and can 3hko everything besides physical walls, which requires only one para, which is bound to happen over the long run for Snorlax to beat it. This means that Snorlax is able to pivot into a powerful breaker, paralyze a defensive mon if not outright get a kill and potentially rest and sleep talk until its healthy, stopping switchins into offensive mons with its massive attack stat and potential paralysis, making it a momentum gain. The majority of its defensive answers such as Toxapex, Rhyperior, and Hippowdon also beat Curse variants. It works particularly well paired with specs hex Dragapult because of its ability to consistently spread paras, but honestly, the possibilities of pokemon that can abuse paras on common walls are endless.
For the EVs, it has the physical defense to live a +2 Aegislash iron head(and ohko back with heat crash), whilst also maximizing special defense in order to help roles against specs modest Kyurem and sub cm Primarina. Maximum attack investment ensures that it gets a 3hko on 152 def clef, and allows it to 1v1 some breakers that it doesn't already counter like NP Togekiss and NP Hydreigon and making its matchup better against bulky cmers like Primarina and Clefable and allowing it to further mitigate its passivity in sleep talk turns and become an actual threat to bulky builds that cannot simply pivot between one of their numerous answers.
EDIT: Replays(1, 2, 3)
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For some reason Snorlax RestTalk doesn't work for me well in OU, I encounter way to much Toxapex, Rhyperior and Hippos. Or maybe my luck with Sleep Talk is really bad. Body Press + Iron Defense also are really annoying to face with Snorlax.
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Def / 108 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Heat Crash
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
And finally, of course Keldeo and Conkelderp wrecks it.
We need better Normal Types for OU.
In due time, ol’ boy. In due time. Chansey will return with a vengeance.
Anyways, I’m surprised to see Snorlax being passed around like it’s a Gen 5 niche again (though then, it was Choice Band that rose to prominence), but I find it welcoming. It’s a shame that there exists a number of pretty reliable checks to it (Toxapex and Hippowdon are the first two that come to my mind), but still; seeing this is inspiring me to give it a shot myself at some point.
A player made it to top 5 on the ladder using a stall team with spdef snorlax. He ran rest-talk with body slam and whirlwind. Absolute tank on the special side. Not sure about offensive snor, but defensive has a niche.Snorlax, in theory, is an extremely good check to numerous balance breakers, whilst also being a reliable win condition. However, in practice, as an avid Snorlax user, I found that the standard curse Snorlax was extremely easy to pressure with these same breakers, since it was rather easy to force it to rest with either status or chip damage and then whittle it down with a breaker since it does nothing while asleep and it very rarely wakes up with more than 50% after rocks chip, at which point the breakers it was meant to counter would easily overwhelm it. Even if a team did not have one of the numerous checks to it, they could sweep by abusing its sleep turns against it and switching into a breaker.
I want to showcase my favorite Snorlax set, that doesn't struggle with the issues I outlined above.
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Def / 108 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Heat Crash
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Sleep talk is by no means an original invention, but gives great value. With a 66% chance of clicking an attacking move hovering around 120 base power, the sleep turns are nightmares for sets lacking sleep talk are now significantly easier to stall out since an opponent could rarely risk taking half from either of Snorlax's attacking moves and is often forced to deal minimal damage with a defensive pokemon like Toxapex, making it a better counter a lot of the most terrifying balance breakers, namely NP Rotom-H, SubCM Primarina, hex Dragapult, specs Aegislash, and CM LO Clefable and Unlike other defensive mons, Snorlax is not remotely passive, earning a 2hko on a good amount of attacking mons, and threatens to cripple them with a paralysis with body slams , which can also help against defensive mons, for instance it is able to beat clef spreads with 152 defense(for lucha) with just a single paralysis, and can 3hko everything besides physical walls, which requires only one para, which is bound to happen over the long run for Snorlax to beat it. This means that Snorlax is able to pivot into a powerful breaker, paralyze a defensive mon if not outright get a kill and potentially rest and sleep talk until its healthy, stopping switchins into offensive mons with its massive attack stat and potential paralysis, making it a momentum gain. The majority of its defensive answers such as Toxapex, Rhyperior, and Hippowdon also beat Curse variants. It works particularly well paired with specs hex Dragapult because of its ability to consistently spread paras, but honestly, the possibilities of pokemon that can abuse paras on common walls are endless.
For the EVs, it has the physical defense to live a +2 Aegislash iron head(and ohko back with heat crash), whilst also maximizing special defense in order to help roles against specs modest Kyurem and sub cm Primarina. Maximum attack investment ensures that it gets a 3hko on 152 def clef, and allows it to 1v1 some breakers that it doesn't already counter like NP Togekiss and NP Hydreigon and making its matchup better against bulky cmers like Primarina and Clefable and allowing it to further mitigate its passivity in sleep talk turns and become an actual threat to bulky builds that cannot simply pivot between one of their numerous answers.
EDIT: Replays(1, 2, 3)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1127075655
Snorlax is nice just because there's so few reliable Kyurem checks that don't have to spam heal to switch into it. Snorlax is one of those. And it packs the bonus of not being particularly passive. However, I think because of its reliance on Rest and low speed it can be a momentum drain regardless, which makes it awkward to fit on teams. Plus SpeDef Clef is everywhere, which somewhat alleviates the need for a special tank. But you're playing Clef on every team anyway, so Snorlax's main role just ends up being "tank hits so Clef doesn't have to". The fact it checks Special Aegi (only) and Dragapult to alleviate Ghost spam is nice, but Dragapult can just U-turn into something bulky to throw hazards of some kind up, and Aegi has multiple other sets (plus access to Close Combat) that hurt Snorlax badly. So I would say it's a situational beast at best, who is given a solid presence by being a hard stop to Kyurem.
hey everyone, with DLC around the corner we decided that we would open this thread up to some discussion of the Pokemon we are likely to receive in just 5 days! TPP will be making a more thorough post below this, outlining Pokemon and moves. I want to give you guys a way to rank the Pokemon that are thus far confirmed. So I made a public rankable tier list of Pokemon confirmed in DLC: Isle of Armor. Please note that if you wish to save and/or share your list in this thread or anywhere else publicly, then you should make sure it is not connected to any personal information (i.e: social media accounts) as it could display your avatar alongside your submission.
This is my personal ranking of all of the Pokemon (do note that Amoonguss is virtually confirmed, but we excluded it due to it not being 100% official). It is going to be interesting which Pokemon ultimately turn out OU, but I expect that most of my personal S and A rank can be OU whereas B rank may very well be viable, but could settle in UU (with Talonflame being fringe, but worth trying out due to Heavy Duty Boots). Finally, here is my thoughts and creation of my list explained in a bit more detail.
The entire OU moderation team is very excited for DLC and this is a great way to drum up the hype!
This is my personal ranking of all of the Pokemon (do note that Amoonguss is virtually confirmed, but we excluded it due to it not being 100% official). It is going to be interesting which Pokemon ultimately turn out OU, but I expect that most of my personal S and A rank can be OU whereas B rank may very well be viable, but could settle in UU (with Talonflame being fringe, but worth trying out due to Heavy Duty Boots). Finally, here is my thoughts and creation of my list explained in a bit more detail.
The entire OU moderation team is very excited for DLC and this is a great way to drum up the hype!
List of moves the Isle of Armor returning pokemon get.
Muddy Water
Drain Punch, Reversal, Superpower, Muddy Water, Close Combat, Darkest Lariat, High Horsepower, Liquidation
Imprison, Weather Ball, Mud Shot, Razor Shell, Psychic Terrain, Hydro Pump, Muddy Water, Nasty Plot, Stored Power, Liquidation, Body Press
Magical Leaf, Psycho Cut, Bulldoze, Future Sight, Calm Mind, Power Whip*
Stored Power
Beat Up, Assurance, Hydro Pump
Psycho Cut, Agility
Assurance, Psycho Cut, Cross Poison, Acrobatics
Revenge, Assurance, Reversal, Megahorn, Close Combat, High Horsepower, Throat Chop, Focus Energy*
Mud Shot, Draining Kiss, Misty Terrain, Brutal Swing, High Horsepower
Screech, Weather Ball, Uproar, Muddy Water, Ally Switch, Liquidation
Sand Tomb, Assurance, Psycho Cut, Cross Poison
Sand Tomb, Body Press
Breaking Swipe, Hurricane, Liquidation
Stored Power
Hydro Pump
Agility, Electro Ball, Play Rough, Psychic Fangs
Self-destruct, Heavy Slam, Body Press
Solar Blade, Brutal Swing
Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Revenge, Body Slam, Endure, Close Combat, Darkest Lariat, High Horsepower
Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Swift, Revenge, Assurance, Hex, Endure
Solar Beam, Swift, Eerie Impulse, Endure, Energy Ball
Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Revenge, Assurance, Brutal Swing, Agility, Focus Energy, Blaze Kick, Close Combat
Mega Punch, Body Slam, Endure
Body Slam, Endure, Close Combat, High Horsepower
Attract, Mystical Fire
Fire Spin, Swift, Endure, Hurricane
Endure
Electric Terrain, Endure
Giga Impact, Sandstorm, Swift, Rock Blast, Assurance, Tail Slap, Agility, Endure, Close Combat, Play Rough, Psychic Fangs
Giga Impact, Sandstorm, Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Revenge, Rock Blast, Payback, Low Sweep, Endure, Close Combat, Play Rough, Psychic Fangs
Giga Impact, Sandstorm, Rock Blast, Tail Slap, Focus Energy, Endure, Close Combat, Work Up, Play Rough, Psychic Fangs
Teleport users:
* means it's a move they learn in Let's Go but for some reason are unable to learn through TM/TR in SS. It's similar to how Melmetal gets EQ in Let's Go but not SS, which ultimately doesn't really change much since you can transfer one over anyways.
Amoonguss was intentionally excluded from this list.
Muddy Water Drain Punch, Reversal, Superpower, Muddy Water, Close Combat, Darkest Lariat, High Horsepower, Liquidation Imprison, Weather Ball, Mud Shot, Razor Shell, Psychic Terrain, Hydro Pump, Muddy Water, Nasty Plot, Stored Power, Liquidation, Body Press Magical Leaf, Psycho Cut, Bulldoze, Future Sight, Calm Mind, Power Whip* Stored Power Beat Up, Assurance, Hydro Pump Psycho Cut, Agility Assurance, Psycho Cut, Cross Poison, Acrobatics Revenge, Assurance, Reversal, Megahorn, Close Combat, High Horsepower, Throat Chop, Focus Energy* Mud Shot, Draining Kiss, Misty Terrain, Brutal Swing, High Horsepower Screech, Weather Ball, Uproar, Muddy Water, Ally Switch, Liquidation Sand Tomb, Assurance, Psycho Cut, Cross Poison Sand Tomb, Body Press Breaking Swipe, Hurricane, Liquidation Stored Power Hydro Pump Agility, Electro Ball, Play Rough, Psychic Fangs Self-destruct, Heavy Slam, Body Press Solar Blade, Brutal Swing Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Revenge, Body Slam, Endure, Close Combat, Darkest Lariat, High Horsepower Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Swift, Revenge, Assurance, Hex, Endure Solar Beam, Swift, Eerie Impulse, Endure, Energy Ball Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Revenge, Assurance, Brutal Swing, Agility, Focus Energy, Blaze Kick, Close Combat Mega Punch, Body Slam, Endure Body Slam, Endure, Close Combat, High Horsepower Attract, Mystical Fire Fire Spin, Swift, Endure, Hurricane Endure Electric Terrain, Endure Giga Impact, Sandstorm, Swift, Rock Blast, Assurance, Tail Slap, Agility, Endure, Close Combat, Play Rough, Psychic Fangs Giga Impact, Sandstorm, Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Revenge, Rock Blast, Payback, Low Sweep, Endure, Close Combat, Play Rough, Psychic Fangs Giga Impact, Sandstorm, Rock Blast, Tail Slap, Focus Energy, Endure, Close Combat, Work Up, Play Rough, Psychic FangsTeleport users:
* means it's a move they learn in Let's Go but for some reason are unable to learn through TM/TR in SS. It's similar to how Melmetal gets EQ in Let's Go but not SS, which ultimately doesn't really change much since you can transfer one over anyways.
Amoonguss was intentionally excluded from this list.
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Scyther also got Acrobatics (which is something only Scizor knew)List of moves the Isle of Armor returning pokemon get.
Teleport users:
* means it's a move they learn in Let's Go but for some reason are unable to learn through TM/TR in SS. It's similar to how Melmetal gets EQ in Let's Go but not SS, which ultimately doesn't really change much since you can transfer one over anyways.
Amoonguss was intentionally excluded from this list.
Kangaskhan also got Assurance and Swift
Starmie also got Agility
Luxray also got Electro Ball
Tangrowth also got Power Swap
Zoroark also got Sludge Bomb so it's no longer event exclusive
Dedenne got Electric Terrain and Electro Ball
And since Amoonguss is practically confirmed that thing got Grassy Terrain, Pollen Puff and Hex
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Shouldn't Slowking be on this list too? All you need to get it is trade a Slowpoke holding a King's Rock, and regular Slowpoke should be obtainable by breeding Slowbro which is confirmed.... although I don't see why it wouldn't be transferable either. Unless you believe there's going to be a change to the mechanics of obtaining regular Slowpoke, or to Slowking's evolution method.... which is completely unsubstantiated. Politoed evolves by King's Rock too, and it's confirmed, IDK why it would be changed for Slowking.
edit: Slowking is absent from TPP's post too
It’s not confirmed here and we don’t want to make any assumptions quite yet — things can always change in-game or we can find out confirmation on here soon enough. If any updates happen, we can always edit or discuss more in the near future!
Here's my personal tier list with the focus mostly being on OU viability.
I'll give some quick speculative thoughts on my S and A ranks:
Chansey's influence on the meta is not to be underestimated. Special attackers like Dragapult, Hydreigon, and Kyurem won't just have to overcome Clefable anymore, now Chansey is an even bigger obstacle to overcome. Ghosts like Dragapult, Gengar, and Aegislash could run Substitute to abuse Chansey as setup fodder, but perhaps Shadow Ball (perhaps even on Blissey) could be a valid option to put a halt to this in this Ghost-abundant metagame? Moreover, Chansey has very fat wishes (352 HP vs. Clefable's 197 HP), which could be huge for bulkier builds. Teleport (not compatible with Wish) seems like it could open up Chansey offense as well, as it fixes Chansey being a momentum drain for such teams.
Other than Chansey there's not much that can safely come in on Volcarona. Heavy-Duty Boots help it out a lot, as it patches up its biggest weakness in Stealth Rock. As for its moveset, I think Psychic is near mandatory to break through Toxapex. Giga Drain seems like a great option to break through other bulky Water-types like Gastrodon, Primarina, and Seismitoad, as well as specially defensive Hippowdon if that happens to become a thing. Bug Buzz is nice for the likes of Hydreigon, Reuniclus, and Tyranitar, but Giga Drain seems like a solid alternative.
The combination of Regenerator and Teleport certainly makes Slowbro a promising defensive pivot that can keep up momentum. It should serve as quite a solid check to physical attackers like Cinderace, Excadrill, Mamoswine, Hawlucha, Rhyperior, etc.
Tangrowth is another defensive pivot with Regenerator and the long-awaited reliable Zeraora check we've been waiting for. A physically defensive Rocky Helmet set with Sleep Powder seems like it'd have the most potential, but I'm sure Assault Vest is gonna carve a niche for itself as well.
Give Magnezone Choice Specs and trap and eliminate Corviknight, Skarmory, and choice-locked Jirachi. I think it might have nice synergy with Pokemon like Excadrill and Scizor who desperately want these gone. I wouldn't bother with Iron Defense + Body Press shenanigans for Ferrothorn since it'll just beat you down with its own Body Press. I'm curious if Corviknight or Skarmory might run Shed Shell for it. (If Corviknight opts to invest Speed with U-turn to avoid it you could even go with the faster Magneton.)
Belly Drum Azumarill seems like quite the monster. You better keep up the offensive pressure or keep your Ferrothorn and Toxapex topped off and hazards off the field for them to survive Knock Off. Choice Band also seems like a solid option, as it can revenge kill threats like Volcarona.
Skarmory is finally another defensive Spikes setter other than Ferrothorn. It should be a very solid option for defensive teams looking for a Spikes setter, phazer, and check to physical threats like Excadrill and Bisharp.
Starmie seems like it'd be a good Rapid Spinner and it can force out Toxapex while absorbing status. Teleport is cool, but between Rapid Spin, Recover, Scald/Hydro Pump, Psychic/Psyshock, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, and status like Thunder Wave it already has severe 4MSS as is. Heavy-Duty Boots seem nice if you want it to consistently come in to remove hazards.
Of course all of this is just speculation. There should be a bunch of other Pokemon coming in (including new ones we don't know much about like Urshifu), so it's hard to get an accurate read for now.
Here's my tier list. The list should've had the other Lycanroc forms, Alolan Exeggutor and Slowking as well.
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Teleport Slowbro and Chansey sound pretty damn annoying. I cannot wait to use them in every single one of my teams.
The whole Slowpoke family has been handled weirdly this gen. Recall that at the moment, Galarian Slowpoke and only Galarian Slowpoke is available, despite every other normal form of a Galarian variant being transferable.
Absol is also confirmed for the DLC, and that got Air Slash and Close Combat
EDIT: Apparently it's coming in the 2nd DLC
EDIT: Apparently it's coming in the 2nd DLC
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Cores like these are gonna be a pain to break through. Chansey can essentially run Clefable's Wish + Teleport set, but it has the added benefits of greater specially defensive bulk and access to more consistent damage in Seismic Toss. Thanks to Wish, Teleport, and Regenerator, Slowbro and Tangrowth can practically get on the field at full health for free. However, I could potentially see the Wish passer role being swapped around between Chansey and Clefable, since they practically can pull off the same roles (besides a setup, which Chansey can't do). For example, as one uses the standard Wish passer set, the other can utilize Heal Bell / Aromatherapy, Stealth Rock, and Thunder Wave / Toxic without worrying about 4MSS. Their typings also cover a lot of ground in the current metagame, so that is also a big plus. Perhaps stall is back on the menu?
Now, we've been discussing how certain Pokemon will affect the metagame, but what about potential team compositions?
This team most likely has some flaws off the bat, considering I thought of it in a matter of seconds, but I have a good feeling teams like this are gonna be the basis of the rebirth of stall. This composition I have here I believe is still very interchangeable as well (Slowbro can be swapped for Toxapex, Skarmory for Corviknight, etc.), but I just wanted to showcase how the new Pokemon being introduces allows for stall to be relevant again. Teleport shenanigans will be difficult to combat, especially with Wish and Regenerator keeping everyone healthy, while Volcarona is there just as a means of cleaning up, easily setting up against foes that have been slowly weakened.
I might go in depth into the potential of stall later, but I just wanted to share my initial thoughts on it.
edit: Apparently Wish and Teleport aren’t able to be on the same Chansey set, which is rather unfortunate. Regardless, it’ll still be a pain to break through.
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For the record, it's getting released in the second DLC, not the first.
Ema Skye
Work!
Slowbro gets Teleport and, with Regen, can also be a solid offensive pivot. Hopefully the Galarian form keeps Regenerator because that typing is interesting.
Hurricane Kingdra is going to be fun on rain, giving it a reliable way to break Ferrothorn.
I honestly think Magnezone is going to be pretty bad this gen due to the removal of HP Fire and the addition of Body Press. Ferro's Body Press is a 2HKO, and Zone needs Body Press (and Def investment) to beat Ferro. But with def investment, it also will struggle beating Corv and Skarm, both of which have large Body Presses and will outspeed Zones without speed investment.
Boots Volcarona is going to breathe new life into it. It will be amazing what it can do when it doesn't have to worry about Rocks.
Hurricane Kingdra is going to be fun on rain, giving it a reliable way to break Ferrothorn.
I honestly think Magnezone is going to be pretty bad this gen due to the removal of HP Fire and the addition of Body Press. Ferro's Body Press is a 2HKO, and Zone needs Body Press (and Def investment) to beat Ferro. But with def investment, it also will struggle beating Corv and Skarm, both of which have large Body Presses and will outspeed Zones without speed investment.
Boots Volcarona is going to breathe new life into it. It will be amazing what it can do when it doesn't have to worry about Rocks.
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This is an illegal combination; Chansey can only get Wish from an event in generation 3.
My tier list is based on where I think the new mons could fit in the OU VR.
To start off, none of them strike me as “meta-defining”, akin to Clef and Corv, so there are no S-tiers. I placed Chansey, Slowbro, and Tangrowth in A+ because of their insane bulk and excellent utility/splashability. Volcarona will be a potent sweeper, with nothing walling all of its sets except Chansey. It can also run bulky Wisp + Roost sets.
In A tier, Azumarill and Kingdra. The former is incredibly threatening with either band or belly drum and is the best offensive check to Volcarona in the tier. The latter is a dummy strong breaker under rain, and now has Hurricane to dick on its checks even more. Rain in general will probably be around this tier.
For A- I went with mons that are obviously good but less splashable than those in A+ and less lethal than those in A. Magnezone traps Corviknight and has a fairly strong Body Press so it’s not useless against Ferrothorn. Very solid. Krookodile is going to be a great scarfer imo, and could feasibly run a bulky rocks set. Scizor will probably just use CB, and appreciates not auto-losing to Magnezone anymore. Starmie is the second-best spinner in the tier and will serve as a good check to Pex. Scald/Psychic/Recover/Spin sounds great.
B+ has Mienshao, another viable scarfer with a great speed tier, Poliwrath, another solid rain abuser, and Zoroark, which has good coverage and power.
B has Lycanroc, a fast and frail sweeper with SD, and Skarmory, which is a generally inferior Corviknight with access to rocks and spikes.
B- features Dragalge, which can probably serve as a decent breaker with specs.
C tier, as a whole, has Blissey for people who are afraid of Knock Off, Exeggutor as a tank (maybe?), and Talonflame for spedef sets or SD + Roost.
Spicy memes: needs little explanation, they’re pretty bad but are maybe usable as a tech or as a shitpost.
Conplete Trash: lmao
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AnimaticLunatic
I COULD BE BANNED!
Boy oh boy, RIliaboom will have a field day with return of magnezon and a lot of slow bulky cores that it absolutly destroys.And if you wonder which sett I am talking about, look at this one.
Rillaboom
Adamant Nature
Rillaboom @ Grassy Seed
Adamant Nature
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Drum Beating
- Acrobatics
- Superpower
Almost no pokemon newly introduced can wall him.
252 Atk Rillaboom Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 332-392 (106.7 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Rillaboom Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 316-372 (78.2 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Rillaboom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Scizor: 266-313 (77.3 - 90.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Slap on magnezone to dealt with two flying steel types and bam, you are all set. And this also makes his choice scarf sets better by default, since without two birds, it gets harder and harder to wall his choiced woodhamer/drum beating. And he can bait them in with u turn.
Good luck everyone.
Edit: How do you do those small pokemon pictures.
Rillaboom
Adamant Nature
Rillaboom @ Grassy Seed
Adamant Nature
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Drum Beating
- Acrobatics
- Superpower
Almost no pokemon newly introduced can wall him.
252 Atk Rillaboom Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 332-392 (106.7 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Rillaboom Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 316-372 (78.2 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Rillaboom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Scizor: 266-313 (77.3 - 90.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Slap on magnezone to dealt with two flying steel types and bam, you are all set. And this also makes his choice scarf sets better by default, since without two birds, it gets harder and harder to wall his choiced woodhamer/drum beating. And he can bait them in with u turn.
Good luck everyone.
Edit: How do you do those small pokemon pictures.
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I'm sure everyone knows about Teleport Slowbro, but I'd like to talk about what I think the second most important addition to its movepool is, which is Body Press. Body Press will be a great move to let it punish many of its checks while also letting it check more things, and I think will be a standard move on defensive Slowbro. See for yourself:
252+ Def Slowbro Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 186-220 (57.2 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO: Hydreigon would normally be a good offensive switch-in to Slowbro, but Body Press chunks it harder than Ice Beam would. Uninvested Ice Beam does 51% max to Hydreigon, for reference.
252+ Def Slowbro Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 186-220 (47.5 - 56.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO: Kyurem would normally come in very freely against Slowbro and force it out, but Body Press is an addition that makes it think twice about that.
252+ Def Slowbro Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 340-404 (125.4 - 149%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Lol. Goodbye bisharp.
252+ Def Slowbro Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 316-372 (92.6 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO: Goodbye ttar.
252+ Def Slowbro Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Obstagoon: 340-400 (103.9 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO: Obstagone.
252+ Def Slowbro Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 484-572 (172.2 - 203.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO: Dark types really don't like this new addition do they?
252+ Def Slowbro Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Crawdaunt: 194-230 (72.6 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO: Another offensive breaker that would be able to get a free kill if it gets out against Slowbro, now Slowbro can actually tank the hit and kill it back with some prior damage.
252+ Def Slowbro Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 240-284 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery: Snorlax can't even set up on you that safely, a definite reversal of previous generations.
252+ Def Slowbro Body Press vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 152-180 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO: Pivoting in Magnezone is a risky move at best, made even riskier thanks to Body Press.
252+ Def Slowbro Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 102-122 (28.9 - 34.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery: Chunk Ferro on the switch-in, then Teleport out on the Leech Seed or Knock Off, that is how you wear down a Ferrothorn.
252+ Def Slowbro Body Press vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 154-182 (63.9 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Cloyster will struggle even more with Slowbro thanks to Body Press. Scald was a non-guaranteed 2HKO on -1 Cloyster, but Body Press guarantees that 2HKO, and lets you take Cloyster down with even less prior damage than before.
252+ Def Slowbro Body Press vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 226-268 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO: Slowbro can't overwhelm Chansey unless it uses Iron Defense, but it can still chunk it enough to force it to recover. Teleporting out of predicted Chansey is always an option too, but sometimes you just need to get a hit off.
The calcs just go on and on lol. Body Press also ostensibly is Slowbro's best option to do damage to the dark type Urshifu (and Zarude? Is that coming this DLC idk). The biggest flaw with running Body Press is that it invites in Dragapult very freely, so you need to watch out for that. What do you all think about Body Press Slowbro?
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Hi I'm retarded. Small thoughts on what I see could be cool / fringe.
Really a lot to talk about this mon, because it's gained a couple nasty tools to use. Teleport and Heavy-Duty Boots are really strong for it. While Lefties probably will see some use, HDB protects Slowbro from taking unnecessary chip from hazards, which is arguably its bigger issue when tanking for 2HKOes and 3HKOes. Additions like Body Press are also really interesting just for different utility options.
@ Heavy Duty Boots
- Scald
- Slack Off
- Teleport
- [Filler]
I feel this will be used the most, with the filler just being what the team needs from Slowbro (Thunder Wave, Flamethrower, Psychic (Psychock), Body Press).
Aids. God bless Teleport and Wish are illegal as a combination.
Really hot-and-cold opinions about this. On one hand, HDB are a godsend to this Pokemon, and might enable bulkier QD sets. On the other hand, adding Chansey back to the tier with some of its headaches returning aren't fun. Losing Hidden Power also stings because it makes it difficult to break some Pokemon that will likely come in the future (Heatran). It also has to think really hard about some of its move options. No Bug Buzz? Hydreigon and Tyranitar fuck with it. No Psychic? Pex fucks with it.
Also remember that Fire-types like Rotom-H have heavily benefited from HDB, and Fire-types being more common for Volcarona is not very good IMO.
Unfortunately I think Natural Cure and Teleport are illegal, as otherwise defensive sets would have had some interesting methods to predict switches. EDIT: Claims that this is legal, but there is still stuff moveset competition. Lack of Pursuit is a big buff for Starmie, though, since it means that it isn't easily punished in sets that it could use. I think there's some opportunities for Starmie to come back even though Ferrothorn and Chansey exist in the tier. Analytic is really strong offensively when defensive Pokemon switch into it, and Chansey will forever be prone to entry hazards since it's forced to run Eviolite.
I'm curious to see how this Pokemon performs because its movepool was a big drawback from it doing more on things like rain teams. Offensively it's very weak in Attack, but Belly Drum with access to moves like Close Combat and Waterfall are scary. It's also a Swift Swimmer that isn't cucked by Toxapex and Ferrothorn since you can run Earthquake on it, and it still can clean through Tangrowth at +6 (+6 252 Atk Poliwrath Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 390-459 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO). Slowbro remains to be a headache, but you could throw them off with Darkest Lariat instead. Even if it doesn't stay OU, I'm really pumped for this Pokemon because it got some whack ass moves to fuck with things wherever it goes. Let's see if Water move-less Rain Poliwrath becomes a thing? Only time can tell.
Poliwrath @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Close Combat
- Darkest Lariat
- Earthquake
Look I'm stupid but this looks really fucking fun.
Like to see if Band returns. Azumarill still seems really strong with Belly Drum, and rain teams don't really have a lot of abusers to use. Band has an additional option with High Horsepower for Toxapex, and while Ground-type locked moves are pretty unbearable, Azumarill is also a Pokemon that should be used more for breaking or cleaning anyway - depending on stages of the game.
Really a lot to talk about this mon, because it's gained a couple nasty tools to use. Teleport and Heavy-Duty Boots are really strong for it. While Lefties probably will see some use, HDB protects Slowbro from taking unnecessary chip from hazards, which is arguably its bigger issue when tanking for 2HKOes and 3HKOes. Additions like Body Press are also really interesting just for different utility options.
@ Heavy Duty Boots
- Scald
- Slack Off
- Teleport
- [Filler]
I feel this will be used the most, with the filler just being what the team needs from Slowbro (Thunder Wave, Flamethrower, Psychic (Psychock), Body Press).
Aids. God bless Teleport and Wish are illegal as a combination.
Really hot-and-cold opinions about this. On one hand, HDB are a godsend to this Pokemon, and might enable bulkier QD sets. On the other hand, adding Chansey back to the tier with some of its headaches returning aren't fun. Losing Hidden Power also stings because it makes it difficult to break some Pokemon that will likely come in the future (Heatran). It also has to think really hard about some of its move options. No Bug Buzz? Hydreigon and Tyranitar fuck with it. No Psychic? Pex fucks with it.
Also remember that Fire-types like Rotom-H have heavily benefited from HDB, and Fire-types being more common for Volcarona is not very good IMO.
I'm curious to see how this Pokemon performs because its movepool was a big drawback from it doing more on things like rain teams. Offensively it's very weak in Attack, but Belly Drum with access to moves like Close Combat and Waterfall are scary. It's also a Swift Swimmer that isn't cucked by Toxapex and Ferrothorn since you can run Earthquake on it, and it still can clean through Tangrowth at +6 (+6 252 Atk Poliwrath Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 390-459 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO). Slowbro remains to be a headache, but you could throw them off with Darkest Lariat instead. Even if it doesn't stay OU, I'm really pumped for this Pokemon because it got some whack ass moves to fuck with things wherever it goes. Let's see if Water move-less Rain Poliwrath becomes a thing? Only time can tell.
Poliwrath @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Close Combat
- Darkest Lariat
- Earthquake
Look I'm stupid but this looks really fucking fun.
Like to see if Band returns. Azumarill still seems really strong with Belly Drum, and rain teams don't really have a lot of abusers to use. Band has an additional option with High Horsepower for Toxapex, and while Ground-type locked moves are pretty unbearable, Azumarill is also a Pokemon that should be used more for breaking or cleaning anyway - depending on stages of the game.
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