Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v4 (check out posts #483 and 484 for DLC1 info!)

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:talonflame:
I've been messing around w/ smogonbird, and I have enjoyed relative success with a defensive spread.
Taunt + Wisp have a great matchup against most rockers like Hippowdon and rock-move-less drill and shuts down defensive mons like Clef & Ferro.
The defensive spread I've been running is 132/84/92. The Phys investment allows it to be 3HKO'd by LO PyroBall. (if you care about that lmao)
The SpDef improves the bulky water MU + allowing it to better check Clef, Sies, and Pex.
On top of that, It's a good check to Volc, Bish, and easily punishes people thinking of setting up on it.


Set:
:talonflame:
SmogonBird (Talonflame) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 132 HP / 84 Def / 92 SpD / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature

- Taunt
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
- Brave Bird

I think Talonflame finds itself in a good niche in the OU metagame, where I think it could stay for some time.
Although I would like to hear your guys opinions on it before jumping to conclusions.

:psyduck:
edit: talon kinda suffers from 4MSS, it want's to run roost, defog, taunt, wisp, brave bird, & maybe blitz.
Also removed formatting >.<

here's a good replay demonstrating talonflames utility.
 
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:talonflame:
I've been messing around w/ smogonbird, and I have enjoyed relative success with a defensive spread.
Taunt + Wisp have a great matchup against most rockers like Hippowdon and rock-move-less drill and shuts down defensive mons like Clef & Ferro.
The defensive spread I've been running is 132/84/92. The Phys investment allows it to be 3HKO'd by LO PyroBall. (if you care about that lmao)
The SpDef improves the bulky water MU + allowing it to better check Clef, Sies, and Pex.
On top of that, It's a good check to Volc, Bish, and easily punishes people thinking of setting up on it.

Set:
:talonflame:
SmogonBird (Talonflame) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 132 HP / 84 Def / 92 SpD / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
- Brave Bird

I think Talonflame finds itself in a good niche in the OU metagame, where I think it could stay for some time.
Although I would like to hear your guys opinions on it before jumping to conclusions.
:psyduck:
ctrl+A, then press the "remove formatting" button in the top left corner. This is painful to look at.
 
LuchaBoom cores probably caught another W here. I like running Taunt on Hawlucha as it turns Hippo from a wall to setup-bait incapable of hitting it. Looking at that set, at +2 the only mons in the tier capable of taking 1 hit from Hawlucha are Aegislash, Corviknight, PhysDef Hatt, bulky Jirachi, Mandibuzz, Max HP Mew, Toad, Pex, Skarmory, Slowbro, Scizor(expecting max HP).

Aegislash, Corviknight, Jirachi, Skarmory, and Scizor are all either trapped and killed by Magnezone, or are put into Hawlucha range after one hit. Hatt, Mandibuzz, Pex, and Slowbro are all destroyed by Mag as well.

This leaves MaxHP Mew and Seismitoad as the only Pokemon safe from MagLuchaBoom cores. Mew tends to be a suicide lead anyway, it won't be around late game to face Hawlucha, and Seismitoad's usage is dropping without Vish in the tier. You also have Rillaboom capable of OHKOing it.

Speaking of Rillaboom, it should pair somewhat nicely with Mag too as Mag handles many of the steel types Rillaboom struggles against, Rillaboom absorbs EQs for Mag, and the two form a VoltTurn core. Rillaboom's Knock Off on incoming steel types is also a nice way to deal with shed shell, or it can use that U-Turn to bring in Mag and trap them acting as a lure.

The introduction of something like TeleBro will probably benefit these mons as well as it adds to that Turn core and can safely get things like Mag and Hawlucha in, and builds a Grass+Water core defensively.
 
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LuchaBoom cores probably caught another W here. I like running Taunt on Hawlucha as it turns Hippo from a wall to setup-bait incapable of hitting it. Looking at that set, at +2 the only mons in the tier capable of taking 1 hit from Hawlucha are Aegislash, Corviknight, PhysDef Hatt, bulky Jirachi, Mandibuzz, Max HP Mew, Toad, Pex, Skarmory, Slowbro, Scizor(expecting max HP).

Aegislash, Corviknight, Jirachi, Skarmory, and Scizor are all either trapped and killed by Magnezone, or are put into Hawlucha range after one hit. Hatt, Mandibuzz, Pex, and Slowbro are all destroyed by Mag as well.

This leaves MaxHP Mew and Seismitoad as the only Pokemon safe from MagLuchaBoom cores. Mew tends to be a suicide lead anyway, it won't be around late game to face Hawlucha, and Seismitoad's usage is dropping without Vish in the tier. You also have Rillaboom capable of OHKOing it.

Speaking of Rillaboom, it should pair somewhat nicely with Mag too as Mag handles many of the steel types Rillaboom struggles against, Rillaboom absorbs EQs for Mag, and the two form a VoltTurn core. Rillaboom's Knock Off on incoming steel types is also a nice way to deal with shed shell, or it can use that U-Turn to bring in Mag and trap them acting as a lure.

The introduction of something like TeleBro will probably benefit these mons as well as it adds to that Turn core and can safely get things like Mag and Hawlucha in, and builds a Grass+Water core defensively.

Zera really appreciates grassy terrain, which let's it 1v1 lots of common ground types with grass knot
 
I think people are sleeping on talon flame, especially if it’s gets a reliable consist stab from the tutor moves.
Nothing is yet known about the new move tutor moves, but Talonflame's only other movepool additions are Air Slash and Hurricane. Here's the info for that and the other returning mons; TPP added it a few pages ago.
List of moves the Isle of Armor returning pokemon get.

:golduck: Muddy Water

:poliwrath: Drain Punch, Reversal, Superpower, Muddy Water, Close Combat, Darkest Lariat, High Horsepower, Liquidation

:Slowbro: Imprison, Weather Ball, Mud Shot, Razor Shell, Psychic Terrain, Hydro Pump, Muddy Water, Nasty Plot, Stored Power, Liquidation, Body Press

:Exeggutor: Magical Leaf, Psycho Cut, Bulldoze, Future Sight, Calm Mind, Power Whip*

:Chansey: Stored Power

:Kangaskhan: Beat Up, Assurance, Hydro Pump

:Starmie: Psycho Cut, Agility

:Scyther: Psycho Cut, Cross Poison, Acrobatics

:Tauros: Assurance, Reversal, Megahorn, Close Combat, High Horsepower, Throat Chop, Focus Energy*

:Azumarill: Mud Shot, Draining Kiss, Misty Terrain, Brutal Swing, High Horsepower

:Politoed: Screech, Weather Ball, Muddy Water, Ally Switch, Liquidation

:Scizor: Sand Tomb, Assurance, Psycho Cut, Cross Poison

:Skarmory: Sand Tomb, Body Press

:Kingdra: Breaking Swipe, Hurricane, Liquidation

:Blissey: Stored Power

:Exploud: Hydro Pump

:Luxray: Agility, Electro Ball, Play Rough, Psychic Fangs

:Magnezone: Self-destruct, Heavy Slam, Body Press

:Tangrowth: Solar Blade, Brutal Swing

:Krookodile: Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Revenge, Body Slam, Close Combat, Darkest Lariat, High Horsepower

:Zoroark: Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Swift, Revenge, Assurance, Hex

:Emolga: Solar Beam, Swift, Energy Ball

:Mienshao: Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Revenge, Assurance, Brutal Swing, Agility, Focus Energy, Blaze Kick, Close Combat

:Druddigon: Mega Punch, Body Slam

:Bouffalant: Body Slam, Close Combat, High Horsepower

:Volcarona: Mystical Fire

:Talonflame: Fire Spin, Hurricane

:Dragalge: Endure

:Dedenne: Endure

:Lycanroc: Swift, Rock Blast, Assurance, Tail Slap, Agility, Endure, Close Combat, Play Rough, Psychic Fangs

:Lycanroc-Midnight: Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Revenge, Rock Blast, Payback, Endure, Close Combat, Play Rough, Psychic Fangs

:Lycanroc-Dusk: Rock Blast, Tail Slap, Focus Energy, Endure, Close Combat, Work Up, Play Rough, Psychic Fangs

Teleport users::Slowbro::Exeggutor::Chansey::Starmie::Blissey::Magnezone:

* means it's a move they learn in Let's Go but for some reason are unable to learn through TM/TR in SS. It's similar to how Melmetal gets EQ in Let's Go but not SS, which ultimately doesn't really change much since you can transfer one over anyways.

Amoonguss was intentionally excluded from this list.

The only real factor affecting Talonflame's viability is how Gale Wings works, and since the ability hasn't been changed there's no reason Talonflame should be better. Unless you're interested in using Modest Heavy-Duty Boots Talonflame with Hurricane.
 
Nice post earlier Cuddly.

I think some of the fat needed to be trimmed out (see Umbreon and Dracozolt for example). I'm also not sure if I agree with a potential ?HKO being equal to a guaranteed ?HKO. Overall, a very solid post though.

In other news, here is my OU Viability Ranking Tier List predictions
1592194237170.png


That's right ladies and gentlemen, I think we will have a second pink blob in the S+ tier.

Quick thoughts from S+ to B+

- :Chansey: is going to be an absolute menace in the DLC1 meta. Despite the widespread usage of knock off, we have key, physically defensive mons which will really allow Chansey to blossom in this meta. Not to mention the gaining of Teleport on this mon, which will be a boon to balance, stall and even the eclectic Chansey HO. Will be a check to pretty much every special attacker under the sun, including Volcarona and Kyurem.
- :Slowbro: is another mon that will really thrive in this metagame. Forming those classic Regenerator cores with things like Pex, Tangrowth, Reuniclus, Mienshao etc. Teleport will only be a boon to this playstyle and the addition of Body Press makes Slowbro a threat. Bro will do bro things to a level that I feel is S- worthy.
- :Tangrowth: and :Volcarona: will both be verifiable influences on the metagame. Volc with HDB is a demon, though losing hidden power is rougher than people think. Tangrowth on the other hand will provide a much needed ground resist and Zeraora check to the tier. Pushing new options into Balance will bring some great freshness to the tier.
- :Scizor: and :Azumarill: are going to be primarily offensive punches in the mouth. Scizor will likely be rocking Band or a Sp Def set, akin to the one we saw back in BW. Azumarill on the other hand will be a bit more orthodox. I think its best set will likely be Band, but Drum has some real value in a meta filled with relatively passive defensive mons.
- :Magnezone: is the main A- mon I want to touch on. How the mighty hath fallen. Losing HP Fire is huge for this boi. Ferrothorn with Body Press is better suited than ever to take on Zone. This is a huge part of what Zone was used for. It's Corvi/Skarm matchup, especially with all the U-Turn / Teleport in the game will be fantastic. But losing out on the Ferro matchup will make this pokemon much worse than it was previously. :Starmie: is a cool spinner option and has a solid speed tier in this metagame, also has some very cool coverage options to make 'counters' hard to find. Hoping to see Reflect Type find some solid usage. :Mienshao: is my pick for most improved. Regen cores are going to be strong, but that isn't its only option. Reckless HJK packs a serious punch (or kick in this case).
- :Skarmory: is essentially a worse Corviknight that brings Spikes, Stealth Rock and Whirlwind to the table. I don't think it will be bad, B+ is a good Pokemon. I do think that it is hard to argue for over Corviknight. :Krookodile: on the other hand is my boy. I am absolutely being biased here. I think it will hold a very valuable spot in OU. EQ / Knock Off / Close Combat is impressive on any Pokemon, let alone a strong crocodile with stab on the first two of those moves. This is the pick I will likely be the most mistaken on, but I have hope for my boy Steve the Krookodile.
 
The reason it's been left out might just be that no one but me would ever run this in the first place (who knows if it's actually good? I sure don't), but I'm too happy that it finally gets this not to point it out...
On that list of new move additions, you're missing :zoroark: Encore Zoroark!
Why did it take so long to get this? This is going to be so much fun with Illusion

These are less personally exciting, but :bouffalant: Bouffalant now gets Assurance, which might be relevant since Dark coverage is useful with Normal (this is its strongest Dark move right now), and :dedenne: Dedenne now gets Electro Ball (Dedenne is not that relevant, but I think Electro Ball might be worth considering if you're using it anyway?).
There are also some much more minor ones that I don't expect to see use but still might be worth mentioning to complete the list:
:kangaskhan: Swift
:scyther: Assurance (this was noted for Scizor, but Scyther does also get it)
:tauros: Revenge
:politoed: Uproar (how did it not have this?)
:tangrowth: Power Swap
:krookodile: Endure
:zoroark: Endure
:emolga: Endure and Eerie Impulse
:druddigon: Endure
:bouffalant: Endure
:volcarona: Attract
:talonflame: Swift and Endure
:dedenne: Electric Terrain
:lycanroc::lycanroc-midnight::lycanroc-dusk: Giga Impact and Sandstorm; also, :lycanroc-midnight: Low Sweep
This compilation by sb879 is the source I used! I also cross-referenced with the original pastebin for the ones I considered noteworthy to make sure they weren't there by mistake - they definitely are accurate to the HOME datamine!
 

AnimaticLunatic

I COULD BE BANNED!
So I wanted to say some of my predictions on viability to upcoming pokemon. May edit later or make post after for rest of notible one.
:slowbro: - b+
Yeah, I am not really buying into the hype. My problem with it that most of our psychical metagame is way better adapted for it then in the past. Zerora, Obstagoon, Bisharp and Rilaboom are fantastic pokemon still In this meta that can use him to setup or gain momentum. The thing is, scald being such a brain dead move, they will always have problem switching in to it. But same goes for it. Still, walling Cinderace is no small thing, and having someone that can threaten Conc if it switches on fighting move and use it for momentum is also nice. And walling hawluncha completelyis no joke either. But a lot of our special attackers also give it trouble. Especially dark and ghost types. It will still make nice defensive cores with our other defensive walls, especially with Tangrowth.

:tangrowth: - A
Now here is a tang. It will wall most of our psychical metagame no problem. Only real problem is Cindarace, but that is where our other walls come into the play. It can still run AV set to handle Primarinas that are gaining traction.

:chansey: s-
Oh no. Here it comes. The special wall. We finally found all around good switch for most of our choice specs users that are not packing trick. A wall that can bring stall to for front. We all know what it does and what it will continue to do. But still, the prominence of sand, knock of and strong psychical attackers may put some dumper on it.

:magnezone: B+
It will still have good use even without HPF. Since it can threaten all of our defogers (and eliminate our most prominent one almost for free), switch into flying attacks of Togekiss, check cloyster and ice locked Kyrum, and take out weekend steels, it will have some deffensive use. Still, it will strugle with sand teams since it can not really get past there walls and Excadrill, and ferrathorn is not deathly afraid of it Anymore.
 
So I wanted to say some of my predictions on viability to upcoming pokemon. May edit later or make post after for rest of notible one.
:slowbro: - b+
Yeah, I am not really buying into the hype. My problem with it that most of our psychical metagame is way better adapted for it then in the past. Zerora, Obstagoon, Bisharp and Rilaboom are fantastic pokemon still In this meta that can use him to setup or gain momentum. The thing is, scald being such a brain dead move, they will always have problem switching in to it. But same goes for it. Still, walling Cinderace is no small thing, and having someone that can threaten Conc if it switches on fighting move and use it for momentum is also nice. And walling hawluncha completelyis no joke either. But a lot of our special attackers also give it trouble. Especially dark and ghost types. It will still make nice defensive cores with our other defensive walls, especially with Tangrowth.

:tangrowth: - A
Now here is a tang. It will wall most of our psychical metagame no problem. Only real problem is Cindarace, but that is where our other walls come into the play. It can still run AV set to handle Primarinas that are gaining traction.

:chansey: s-
Oh no. Here it comes. The special wall. We finally found all around good switch for most of our choice specs users that are not packing trick. A wall that can bring stall to for front. We all know what it does and what it will continue to do. But still, the prominence of sand, knock of and strong psychical attackers may put some dumper on it.

:magnezone: B+
It will still have good use even without HPF. Since it can threaten all of our defogers (and eliminate our most prominent one almost for free), switch into flying attacks of Togekiss, check cloyster and ice locked Kyrum, and take out weekend steels, it will have some deffensive use. Still, it will strugle with sand teams since it can not really get past there walls and Excadrill, and ferrathorn is not deathly afraid of it Anymore.
Agree with Slowbro and Tangrowth, but S rank for Chansey?
Having THE special wall back is great, but not when Aegislash, Gengar, and even Dragapult exists.
The former 2 are completely immune to Seismic Toss and Toxic, only fear Thunder Wave, and they can Sword Dance/Nasty Plot on Chansey Teleporting/Switching out.
While Dragapult can run a Sub DD or Sub Disable to which Chansey has no answer to.
Maybe if the DLC gifts Chansey with Wish being learned naturally so that Teleport+Wish was compatible, which would be worth it. Or if Pursuit finally returns through so miracle. Otherwise, it’s B+ at best.
Also bump Magnezone down to B since it only really traps Corviknight.
Trapping Corviknight is pretty damn good, but it misses out on pretty much all other Steel types now.
Every Steel type now just beats Magnezone straight up, including Ferrothorn which 2HKOs Magnezone with Body Press, unless it’s running a specific set for that Steel type. And if they don’t, most like Aegislash and Jirachi are easily able to escape.
 

AnimaticLunatic

I COULD BE BANNED!
Agree with Slowbro and Tangrowth, but S rank for Chansey?
Having THE special wall back is great, but not when Aegislash, Gengar, and even Dragapult exists.
The former 2 are completely immune to Seismic Toss and Toxic, only fear Thunder Wave, and they can Sword Dance/Nasty Plot on Chansey Teleporting/Switching out.
While Dragapult can run a Sub DD or Sub Disable to which Chansey has no answer to.
Maybe if the DLC gifts Chansey with Wish being learned naturally so that Teleport+Wish was compatible, which would be worth it. Or if Pursuit finally returns through so miracle. Otherwise, it’s B+ at best.
Also bump Magnezone down to B since it only really traps Corviknight.
Trapping Corviknight is pretty damn good, but it misses out on pretty much all other Steel types now.
Every Steel type now just beats Magnezone straight up, including Ferrothorn which 2HKOs Magnezone with Body Press, unless it’s running a specific set for that Steel type. And if they don’t, most like Aegislash and Jirachi are easily able to escape.
For aegislash, she looses to it if it runs any set that is not choice specs. It can not hurt Aegislash with that set, but it can just stall it out or get good prediction on teleport so that you can bring on your own ghost type or counter. Dragapult only wins if runs sub + dragon dance set that is not running ghost type move but steel wing for fairies. Gengar is gengar, so yeah. Yeah, maybe S- is to good of a rank. A (+) maybe more realistic. But at same time, those ghost types do not really prevent it to the things it did in prior gens. I think that trick is actually bigger problem honestly. And it basically brings stall back to life.

And I said that Mag can still trap other weekend steels. Stuff like Jirachi and Scizor have sets that magnezone can beat, especially after some chip. Slow bulky sets, adamant sets if it is running speed nature. Choice scarf Jirachi can basically never use iron head, and Sub+Cm canbe beat if it did not sub. What tire do you think it belongs to.
 
For aegislash, she looses to it if it runs any set that is not choice specs.
Most Aegi, even a lot of specs variants, run CC for things like Snorlax.
0- Atk Aegislash-Blade Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 274-324 (38.9 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Noting how Chansey provides no real threat other than a potential Thunder Wave (which it probably won't run due to the threat of Volcarona), it's dificult to see how this is a real answer, specially once chipped by something like Flash Cannon or rocks:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 144-171 (20.4 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Prediction is necessary, and PP can be stalled out, but Chansey is by no means a one-size-fits-all answer to Specs Aegislash

Dragapult only wins if runs sub + dragon dance set that is not running ghost type move but steel wing for fairies.
Most DD dragapult don't run Sub DD(or a ghost move for that matter), but Sub DD is definitely capable of breaking Chansey.
+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 338-398 (48 - 56.6%) -- approx. 93% chance to 2HKO
Chansey is incapable of doing anything back.

those ghost types do not really prevent it to the things it did in prior gens.
I have a hard time with this. The prevalence of Ghosts in the meta (due largely to the removal of pursuit) means that Chansey will struggle to be anything more than setup fodder for powerful breakers such as CM Chandelure, DD Dragapult, and any Aegislash set just to name a few. Two of these are new tools for Chansey to deal with. While the tilt towards special attackers in this Hippowdon, Corv, Pex, and Ferro infested metagame has shaped the meta a lot recently, it's clear to me that while Chansey will shift the meta a bit back towards strong physical attackers, it won't be the S tier icon people make it out to be.

Stuff like Jirachi and Scizor have sets that magnezone can beat, especially after some chip.
Magnezone is capable of dealing damage to these two, yes. However, without Specs, it lacks the damage needed to actually break these two. Even then, this opens up a host of other problems.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 291-343 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
While this looks good on paper, Magnezone functions merely as a revenge killer to a Scizor lacking Superpower or the ability to switch moves. Scizor is also inherently faster, meaning that with some speed investment, it is capable of simply OHKOing with Superpower. This is not to say that Scizor now beats Magnezone; Tbolt still does a ton and and easily traps and removes a Scizor locked into BP or a non U-Turn bug move. However, it's much less of a consistent answer, and once knocked off, struggles to beat it.

About Jirachi: It still can use Iron head, which honestly does a fair amount considering the 4x resist. It's by no means a consistent way to beat it, but a low Magnezone can still get whittled down pretty easily:
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 24-28 (8.5 - 9.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Additionally, SubCM doesn't need to sub to beat it. Just CM on the switch and you're good to go:
+1 0 SpA Jirachi Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 190-224 (67.3 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yes, Magnezone is still capable of dealing with these to a large extent, or at least crippling them into the range of something else. But it's pretty clear that Zone will struggle to keep up with its past versatility without HP Fire. Just my two cents.
 
Looking at all this magnezone discussion, I feel like zone is gonna have a hard time being used over the likes of Rotom-H. Zone has niches that it does better than rotom with its trapping, but Rotom does the job of threatening corv/ferro a lot more consistently and gives the rest of your team more utility.
 
my-image.png

Here are my OU Viability Tier List predictions unlike other predictions in this Discussion it's not accurate and it's only a listing which Pokémon will be viable or in OU. F tier means the Pokémon aren't Visible in OU. Tell me if it's not accurate and I will update it.
 

AnimaticLunatic

I COULD BE BANNED!
Most Aegi, even a lot of specs variants, run CC for things like Snorlax.
0- Atk Aegislash-Blade Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 274-324 (38.9 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Noting how Chansey provides no real threat other than a potential Thunder Wave (which it probably won't run due to the threat of Volcarona), it's dificult to see how this is a real answer, specially once chipped by something like Flash Cannon or rocks:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 144-171 (20.4 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Prediction is necessary, and PP can be stalled out, but Chansey is by no means a one-size-fits-all answer to Specs Aegislash


Most DD dragapult don't run Sub DD(or a ghost move for that matter), but Sub DD is definitely capable of breaking Chansey.
+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 338-398 (48 - 56.6%) -- approx. 93% chance to 2HKO
Chansey is incapable of doing anything back.


I have a hard time with this. The prevalence of Ghosts in the meta (due largely to the removal of pursuit) means that Chansey will struggle to be anything more than setup fodder for powerful breakers such as CM Chandelure, DD Dragapult, and any Aegislash set just to name a few. Two of these are new tools for Chansey to deal with. While the tilt towards special attackers in this Hippowdon, Corv, Pex, and Ferro infested metagame has shaped the meta a lot recently, it's clear to me that while Chansey will shift the meta a bit back towards strong physical attackers, it won't be the S tier icon people make it out to be.


Magnezone is capable of dealing damage to these two, yes. However, without Specs, it lacks the damage needed to actually break these two. Even then, this opens up a host of other problems.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 291-343 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
While this looks good on paper, Magnezone functions merely as a revenge killer to a Scizor lacking Superpower or the ability to switch moves. Scizor is also inherently faster, meaning that with some speed investment, it is capable of simply OHKOing with Superpower. This is not to say that Scizor now beats Magnezone; Tbolt still does a ton and and easily traps and removes a Scizor locked into BP or a non U-Turn bug move. However, it's much less of a consistent answer, and once knocked off, struggles to beat it.

About Jirachi: It still can use Iron head, which honestly does a fair amount considering the 4x resist. It's by no means a consistent way to beat it, but a low Magnezone can still get whittled down pretty easily:
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 24-28 (8.5 - 9.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Additionally, SubCM doesn't need to sub to beat it. Just CM on the switch and you're good to go:
+1 0 SpA Jirachi Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 190-224 (67.3 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yes, Magnezone is still capable of dealing with these to a large extent, or at least crippling them into the range of something else. But it's pretty clear that Zone will struggle to keep up with its past versatility without HP Fire. Just my two cents.
Now, while I am in agreement that chansey is not catch all wall, I am not acting like it is meant to be. Even clefable, the best pokemon in the tire, can not beat all setts of these pokemon. Classic clefable looses to any aegislash set that runs any kind of steel move. She looses if you predict wrong and come in on special steel move. She can not come on to gengar for obvious reasons. Even dragapult can get past her at plus 1 with steel wing plus some chip. And that is not counting its natural counters and checks.What to me makes a good wall is dependent on how well it walls most of the metagame.

Now lets look at what pokemon in tire chansey just walls. Rotom-heat, the standard set, only does 60% average at plus six overheat. Kyurum just can not get past her. Which makes Chansey one few walls that can come on to it and do something expect healing. Primarina can not get past her. Pokemon such up and coming Volcarona. And all special sets of dragapult

For magnezone, I feel like it is a pokemon that sound worse in theory then in practice. But lets see what happens in exspantion.
 
I think these sets could be fun for others to check out when DLC 1 drops.
Talonflame @ Choice Specs
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hurricane
- Fire Blast
- U-turn
- Defog
This set could have neat niche in the DLC 1 metagame due to Hurricane not taking chip damage like Brave Bird would while, almost having the same amount of power. This set would function primarily on rain teams for better consistency but, it might work on other teams since, people did run Hurricane on Tornadus in previous metas. If you're able to keep rocks off consistently, this set can wreak havoc on Hyper Offensive teams.
Just a few calcs to keep in mind for faster threats that might still be common in DLC 1.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gale Wings Talonflame Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 256-303 (80.7 - 95.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gale Wings Talonflame Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zeraora: 123-144 (38.8 - 45.4%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gale Wings Talonflame Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 220-261 (67.6 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Talonflame can deal a decent amount of damage to Teleport Clefable (39.8-47.2%). Fire Blast can still OHKO a ferrothorn in the rain if it's not running max special defense. Confusion hax will probably come in clutch too.

Sandtomb Scizor
looks pretty cool to use against fat walls & pivots. It can trap Ferrothorn and have a 81.3% chance to OHKO with a +2 Super Power.
Block Slowbro w/Stored Power could be a set to catch fatter teams off guard.
 
Why do people suggest special sets for Talonflame? I feel like it should be using its physical sets considering 2 120 base power STAB physical attacks coming off of 81 attack is better than 2 110 base power STAB special attacks coming off of 74 special attack.

To make this not a 1-liner I don't agree with the notion that Magnezone will be harder to use than Rotom-H. Sure, losing HP Fire absolutely sucks, but Magnezone is intended to trap Steel-types. Rotom-H, on the other hand, is primarily used for NP Sweeping. So as such these two aren't really comparable.
 

Ruft

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Why do people suggest special sets for Talonflame? I feel like it should be using its physical sets considering 2 120 base power STAB physical attacks coming off of 81 attack is better than 2 110 base power STAB special attacks coming off of 74 special attack.
I'm not saying special sets are necessarily better, but the downside of Brave Bird is that the recoil damage deactivates Gale Wings (and Acrobatics is very weak when holding Heavy-Duty Boots).
 
Why do people suggest special sets for Talonflame? I feel like it should be using its physical sets considering 2 120 base power STAB physical attacks coming off of 81 attack is better than 2 110 base power STAB special attacks coming off of 74 special attack.

To make this not a 1-liner I don't agree with the notion that Magnezone will be harder to use than Rotom-H. Sure, losing HP Fire absolutely sucks, but Magnezone is intended to trap Steel-types. Rotom-H, on the other hand, is primarily used for NP Sweeping. So as such these two aren't really comparable.
The main appeal would be that Talonflame can Heavy-Duty Boots while maintaining full HP after use (which is ironic how no one mentions this)
Brave Bird will just make Talonflame take recoil, making it lose its priority, and Acrobatics requires Talonflame to have no item, which means heavy support to keep Hazards off.
Aerial Ace, Fly, and Peck are the only other options Talonflame has for Physical Flying STAB too.
Talonflame also doesn’t have a huge difference in SpA to it’s Atk either.
 

Ema Skye

Work!
Why do people suggest special sets for Talonflame? I feel like it should be using its physical sets considering 2 120 base power STAB physical attacks coming off of 81 attack is better than 2 110 base power STAB special attacks coming off of 74 special attack.

To make this not a 1-liner I don't agree with the notion that Magnezone will be harder to use than Rotom-H. Sure, losing HP Fire absolutely sucks, but Magnezone is intended to trap Steel-types. Rotom-H, on the other hand, is primarily used for NP Sweeping. So as such these two aren't really comparable.
Hurricane is spammable with Gale Wings. Brave Bird isn't, due to recoil. Physical Talonflame has no reliable way to maintain Gale Wings while still doing damage. Physical Talonflame wanting to maintain Gale Wings have to run... Aerial Ace.

252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 84-100 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- 76.5% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Talonflame Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 76-91 (25 - 29.9%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Power difference is honestly not that much, especially with Hazards as it's still going to cause switches. Going special also means you won't break Gale Wings attacking Ferrothorn or Helmet Hippo.
 
:krookodile: on the other hand
I think ReadTheMango has a good point about Krookodile being OU viable. Currently in terms of offensive ground types, we have Excadrill and Diggersby. Krookodile has a niche over Excadrill because it resists ghosts and isn't walled by Corviknight: Krookodile gets Knock Off to hit it and remove its item (it also gets elemental fang moves but even with Adamant max investment they don't 4HKO max defense corviknight). They have roughly equal bulk with no investment. Krookodile also isn't hard walled by Hippowdon, it gets Aqua tail. Never mind, Aqua tail is a 3HKO with Adamant.

Krookodile gets Bulk Up. Bulk up sets have a lot of options: FireFang/AquaTail/Earthquake, Power Trip/Earthquake, etc. At +2, Power Trip can 2HKO Corviknight. At +3, it almost OHKOs Corviknight. To top it off, it gets Moxie, allowing it to sweep teams once it gets a KO.

I think Taunt will probably be a decent option on it. Something like Taunt/Knock Off/Earthquake/4th move (stealth rock, fire fang, superpower, aqua tail, bulk up, pup) could be viable at shutting down defensive mons. An offensive rocker with SR/Taunt/Knock/EQ could be useful on a lot of teams. It also gets Intimidate, allowing it to better check some physical attackers. At -1, Hippo becomes setup fodder for Krook (if it is running Taunt to stop Whirlwhind.) Assuming Hippo gets only max rolls, Krookodile can safely boost to +4 in front of it.

Krookodile definitely will not be an S rank pokemon. I predict it will have some viability with a pretty unique combination of typing and utility, either as a niche setup sweeper or as a supporter with rocks.
 
The biggest thing I would caution when considering special Talonflame is that it basically eliminates the ability to check Volcarona. Even before a Quiver Dance boosts its SpD, Talon WILL miss the KO on offensive Volc variants. Meanwhile, Brave Bird only requires 8 Atk EVs (not even a boosting nature) to OHKO offensive Volc. Tweaking the nature/EVs can help you OHKO even old bulky spreads (which may be updated for SwSh, but meh):

  • 252+ SpA Talonflame Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 260-308 (83.6 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 8 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 312-368 (100.3 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 232+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Volcarona: 374-444 (100.2 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • BONUS: 232+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Hawlucha: 260-308 (87.5 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (any lower Atk and it's a roll)

I would say if you want a Volcarona check, physical Talonflame is absolutely required.

EDIT: Note the lack of any items. Because why would you run anything other than HDB unless Gale Wings is un-nerfed.
 
View attachment 254839
Don't know if it matters at all, but Tentacool/Tentacruel is confirmed to be back in 2 days.
This is pretty Tentacool to see them back.
Unfortunately, Tentacruel doesn’t get anything special in terms of moves, besides a buff to Rapid Spin.
It won’t have any use as a fully defensive Pokemon thank to Toxapex, and will be worse than Starmie as a Rapid Spinner too.
 
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