Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v4 (check out posts #483 and 484 for DLC1 info!)

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hey everyone, with DLC around the corner we decided that we would open this thread up to some discussion of the Pokemon we are likely to receive in just 5 days! TPP will be making a more thorough post below this, outlining Pokemon and moves. I want to give you guys a way to rank the Pokemon that are thus far confirmed. So I made a public rankable tier list of Pokemon confirmed in DLC: Isle of Armor. Please note that if you wish to save and/or share your list in this thread or anywhere else publicly, then you should make sure it is not connected to any personal information (i.e: social media accounts) as it could display your avatar alongside your submission.



This is my personal ranking of all of the Pokemon (do note that Amoonguss is virtually confirmed, but we excluded it due to it not being 100% official). It is going to be interesting which Pokemon ultimately turn out OU, but I expect that most of my personal S and A rank can be OU whereas B rank may very well be viable, but could settle in UU (with Talonflame being fringe, but worth trying out due to Heavy Duty Boots). Finally, here is my thoughts and creation of my list explained in a bit more detail.

The entire OU moderation team is very excited for DLC and this is a great way to drum up the hype!
Ummm... What about Alolan Exeggutor btw? Or it will not be available?
 
This is pretty Tentacool to see them back.
Unfortunately, Tentacruel doesn’t get anything special in terms of moves, besides a buff to Rapid Spin.
It won’t have any use as a fully defensive Pokemon thank to Toxapex, and will be worse than Starmie as a Rapid Spinner too.
Maybe it can act as a rapid spinner that can win the 1v1 against Clefable (thanks to Acid Spray) and Giga Drain Volcarona (thanks to Liquid Ooze). I'm sure that Starmie would be better with Recover and its moverpool, but maybe Tentacruel can check some things too.
 
Ummm... What about Alolan Exeggutor btw? Or it will not be available?
I don't really know yet, and neither do any of us, but I'm just gonna go ahead and assume it's not going to be available without Pokemon HOME.

As to avoid this being a one-liner, has anyone found any uses for Zoroark? I know I said it was guaranteed to fail in OU because Conkeldurr OHKOes it, but I wonder if there are any possible uses for it other than being a NP sweeper of sorts.
 
I think an overlooked attack available to Chansey/Blissey is Tri Attack. Previously it was a gen 1/2 tutor move which meant they couldn't use Serene Grace with it, however Tri Attack is a TR in gen 8, so there's no reason not to be able to get Serene Grace with it anymore. If it can actually learn it from the TR, and this ends up being even remotely viable, then.. uh.......... uh........ uh...

On the other hand Togekiss is already able to do this and it never became a thing so maybe I'm just freaking out over nothing, but Togekiss and Blissey don't really have the same ability to fish for procs.
 
I don't really know yet, and neither do any of us, but I'm just gonna go ahead and assume it's not going to be available without Pokemon HOME.

As to avoid this being a one-liner, has anyone found any uses for Zoroark? I know I said it was guaranteed to fail in OU because Conkeldurr OHKOes it, but I wonder if there are any possible uses for it other than being a NP sweeper of sorts.
Heavy Duty Boots creates new options for Illusion. You can copy things like Clefable or Corviknight and you won't take Stealth Rock damage. Corvknight seems like a solid Illusion option because both get U-Turn, which makes it easy to keep the Illusion up.

Rotom-Heat would be another good Illusion option, as both would be immune to hazards due to Boots and both get Nasty Plot. Even without an item, a +2 Dark Pulse does so much to Rotom-H's checks like Rhyperior and Seismitoad.
 

Finchinator

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I really disagree with Finch only putting Starmie in B and thinking it'll be UU, I see it as very good right now. Both bulky and offensive sets have fantastic matchups. It has the ability to kill most of the tier, I think better than Keldeo anyway.
Offensive sets are definitely not going to be worthwhile in OU, in my opinion. Chansey is going to be back in the tier, Ferrothorn is as common as ever with Hidden Power Fire not existing anymore, AV Tang and perhaps SDef Amoonguss (not yet confirmed) are going to be noteworthy, and the OHKO potential against offensive Pokemon is lacking besides super effective STAB moves. This coupled with the fact that offensive Starmie is a horrible spinner makes offensive Starmie pretty impossible to use consistently in this climate, which is the same as the last two generations.

Bulky Starmie is likely going to have a niche and why I was content with it in mid-high B tier, which roughly translates to a solid UU option that has fringe OU viability (think C+ rank-ish). The thing is it's still not a good spinner, only handling SR Rhyperior and Hippowdon particularly well. Ghost types being as common as they are hurt it, too.

I think an overlooked attack available to Chansey/Blissey is Tri Attack. Previously it was a gen 1/2 tutor move which meant they couldn't use Serene Grace with it, however Tri Attack is a TR in gen 8, so there's no reason not to be able to get Serene Grace with it anymore. If it can actually learn it from the TR, and this ends up being even remotely viable, then.. uh.......... uh........ uh...
I don't think this is worthwhile, especially given how pitifully weak Chansey is and the fact that both Pokemon are already limited (SR, Seismic, Softboiled, Toxic, Wish, Heal Bell, and now Teleport being in their arsenal).

Ummm... What about Alolan Exeggutor btw? Or it will not be available?
Not confirmed yet, we'll see. Apparently Tentacruel is rumored to be in though.

As to avoid this being a one-liner, has anyone found any uses for Zoroark? I know I said it was guaranteed to fail in OU because Conkeldurr OHKOes it, but I wonder if there are any possible uses for it other than being a NP sweeper of sorts.
One liners can be ok if you have some substance and purpose, fwiw. Anyway, Zoroark is really underwhelming as team preview makes it telegraphed and even if it surprises you, it's not always netting a KO or tanking attacks well.
 
I don't really know yet, and neither do any of us, but I'm just gonna go ahead and assume it's not going to be available without Pokemon HOME.

As to avoid this being a one-liner, has anyone found any uses for Zoroark? I know I said it was guaranteed to fail in OU because Conkeldurr OHKOes it, but I wonder if there are any possible uses for it other than being a NP sweeper of sorts.
Heavy Duty Boots creates new options for Illusion. You can copy things like Clefable or Corviknight and you won't take Stealth Rock damage. Corvknight seems like a solid Illusion option because both get U-Turn, which makes it easy to keep the Illusion up.

Rotom-Heat would be another good Illusion option, as both would be immune to hazards due to Boots and both get Nasty Plot. Even without an item, a +2 Dark Pulse does so much to Rotom-H's checks like Rhyperior and Seismitoad.
ENCORE!!
Fr, Zoro's time to shine is now or never. Probably never, but it will be interesting...
Rotom-H (Zoroark) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Sludge Bomb/Toxic
Pretty much the implementation of what was discussed above. Sludge Bomb nails Clef and is hilarious, Toxic lets you do a better Rotom-H impression.
Clefable (Zoroark) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Calm Mind
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Bomb
Step 1: Do a perfect CM Clefable impression.
Step 2:idk
Step 3:???
Step 4:Profit.
 

G-Luke

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I'd like to throw in my two cents about Ferro vs. Zone and propose the set I think will be best suited to win that matchup.
:magnezone:
Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 108 HP / 252 Def / 64 SpA / 84 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Thunderbolt / Discharge

So the EVs on this set look pretty weird, but they serve a very specific purpose. The Speed EVs allow Magnezone to outspeed uninvested Skarmory. The Defense allows Magnezone to hit as hard as possible with Body Press, and with that amount of HP, it always prevents max Defense Ferrothorn's Body Press from breaking a +2 Defense Magnezone's Substitute. The rest just goes into Special Attack to hit harder with your last move. This makes the Magnezone vs. Ferrothorn matchup pretty easy as the Magnezone user needs to just win a 50/50; either sub up on the Leech Seed, or use Iron Defense on the Body Press and sub up after. Magnezone's +2 Body Press is a guaranteed 2HKO on Ferrothorn, even if it does manage to get a Leech Seed off. Against Corviknight, it can play similar 50/50s or just smack it with its Electric move hard, and Skarmory loses even harder, even if it can do a little more with Body Press. This set can also trap Bisharp if needed and can counter-trap opposing Choiced Magnezone too.

I was pretty sus about Body Press Magnezone, but after doing the calcs it can certainly still cut it as a trapper for Ferrothorn, you just need to be a bit more creative. I'd imagine more offensive sets with Chople Berry could prove useful for the Body Press steels as well, even without Kartana's presence lol.
On god is this a magnezone set that is set up bait for BU Corviknight? Yall doing the most just to trap ferro
 

Jordy

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On god is this a magnezone set that is set up bait for BU Corviknight? Yall doing the most just to trap ferro
64 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 204-242 (51 - 60.5%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Does this look like it's setup bait to you? All it takes is Knock Off and Corviknight's successfully trapped. Beyond that, I am very doubtful that Bulk Up Corviknight will even get much usage in a metagame with Magnezone in it. Please make sure to think things through before posting a one-liner that doesn't actually mean much.
 
Actually, looks like they gave it just enough SpA to threaten BU Corviknight.

64 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 204-242 (51 - 60.5%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Plus Corviknight is outsped and even with 252 Defense EVs (not a +Defense nature though), Corviknight's not even 3HKOing that set with Body Press.

252 Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 108 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 100-118 (32.4 - 38.3%) -- 1.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

I’m going to be honest and say that I think Blissey (if there isn’t some weird thing in the DLC that prevents Chansey from evolving) will have a decent niche in OU.
Why?
First and this is small, but Heavy-Duty Boosts will allow Blissey to come in on Special Attackers when there is a good number of Hazards up, and do this multiple times for a match.
Second, Blissey isn’t a sitting duck against set up Ghost types.
I have talked about how Chansey will be struggling against teams that have Gengar, Chandelure, Dragapult, and Aegislash, especially set up variants of each. These 4 Pokemon no longer have a fear of Pursuit, so they all can roam freely. The best Chansey can do is Teleport/Switch, Thunder Wave (which is pretty bad), or Toxic Chandelure/Dragapult when they switch in.
Enter Blissey. Having a base 75 SpA, Blissey has nearly double the SpA Chansey has when both are uninvested. And luckily, Blissey is able to learn Shadow Ball, which allows Blissey to hit the Ghost types that otherwise would set up on Chansey.
It’s also pretty decent Damage as well against those Ghost types.
0 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 114-136 (43.6 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 116-138 (36.5 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 100-118 (38.3 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 68-82 (26 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 158-186 (60.5 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 238-280 (91.1 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (after Close Combat is used, which Blissey is able to tank).

These 2 are pretty small niches, but I would say Blissey could be viable in the same tier as Chansey goes too.
 

Martin

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Offensive sets are definitely not going to be worthwhile in OU, in my opinion. Chansey is going to be back in the tier, Ferrothorn is as common as ever with Hidden Power Fire not existing anymore, AV Tang and perhaps SDef Amoonguss (not yet confirmed) are going to be noteworthy, and the OHKO potential against offensive Pokemon is lacking besides super effective STAB moves. This coupled with the fact that offensive Starmie is a horrible spinner makes offensive Starmie pretty impossible to use consistently in this climate, which is the same as the last two generations.

Bulky Starmie is likely going to have a niche and why I was content with it in mid-high B tier, which roughly translates to a solid UU option that has fringe OU viability (think C+ rank-ish). The thing is it's still not a good spinner, only handling SR Rhyperior and Hippowdon particularly well. Ghost types being as common as they are hurt it, too.
Saw this comment and I kinda wanted to discuss it. I think offensive Starmie will likely have a niche despite the lack of HP Fire simply because of it matching up better versus the available spinblockers. For reference, the big problem children here are Aegislash and Dragapult. The former is 2HKOed by Hydro Pump on switch-in while the latter drops to analytic Ice Beam and takes more than 50% from Analytic Psyshock/Psychic (regardless of item)/Hydro Pump (assuming LO). These are both KOs that bulky Starmie couldn't dream of attaining, letting it take them on head on instead relying on playing positioning games with them on offensive teams that don't have the room to play something like that out for many turns at a time.

Of course, I agree with you regarding bulky Starmie. I expect will likely have more general utility and should benefit from the added longevity over offensive, which would need to be constantly making guesses every time it came out in matchups like Ferro+spinblocker balance/BO. That said, one of the things that made bulky Starmie better than niche in the past was that, despite its sorta eh MU vs common hazard users outside of Lando/Hippo, balance often had no options available to stop it clicking Spin in return. Of course, the main format I'm citing here is ORAS OU before ppl with more influence than me realised that Jellicent had been good all along, which shuts bulky Starmie down hard if it doesnt carry Toxic (and even then…). Of course, the big problem is that we have the two aforementioned blockers in addition to Jellicent now. Dragapult in particular is a problem between it resisting Water and being faster than Starmie, meaning it can very easily spinblock and then force it out on the spot thanks to Starmie's Ghost weakness.

For this reason, I expect the set we'll see will look something like this:

Starmie @ Leftovers / Heavy Duty Boots / Protective Pads
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Psychic / Scald / Ice Beam
- Recover
- Thunder Wave

EVs obviously pending what the full list of added mons looks like. I expect Thunder Wave to be very important because it punishes people for going into Dragapult recklessly, leaving it vulnerable and helping partners like Hydreigon, Gengar, Aegislash, or Kyurem, which are typically forced out by Pult (anything with 192 or more Speed can outrun a paralyzed Modest Dragapult—only 8 extra EVs for anything that already creeps adamant Conk—and anything with at least 1 more base speed than Crawdaunt can make Timid variants their bitch). The choice of attacking move really depends on what you need Starmie to do on your team—Psychic helps versus Conkeldurr, Gengar, and Keldeo and is preferred over Psyshock despite CM Keld existing because it 2HKOs PhysDef Toxapex with SR and Kommo-o without; Scald threatens Rotom-H, Hippo, and Rhyperior while helping to spread status, notably punishing Ferrothorn switch-ins and neutering Aegislash's Shadow Sneak/Close Combat; Ice Beam 2HKOs Dragapult and Hydreigon (the latter after Stealth Rock) as well as threatening Gliscor if that gets released—this is is useful alongside Thunder Wave because you only need to correctly guess Pult's switch in once more to threaten with a 2HKO after it's been paralyzed, which helps avoid playing positioning games with it later on. HDB lets you spin even if ur opp somehow gets 3 layers of spikes or some BS+negates Webs/TSpikes which is nice in the longrun whereas Protective Pads is specifically to let you spin on Ferro/Hippo/Kommo without fearing Helmet or Barbs, especially considering that any team with Ferro+no ghost is 100% going to use Ferro's Barbs as their main anti-Spin measure.
 
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OK, so can we talk about Tyranitar for a second. Does anyone feel like it is kept in the tire because of tradition up to this point. I have felt this since the SS released. That thing is just here.
:tyranitar:
As stealth rock and sandstorm setter it is mostly outclassed by Hippowdon. It is threatened by most of the metagame, it can not switch into much, its choice band set is pretty ineffective in actually breaking through stuff. And to put it all into a perspective, since we lost pursuit, ghost types have been thriving in the tire. It can not even check 2 of them reliably (Dragapult and Aegislash), since one threatens to burn it and u turn for a nice chunk of damage, while others steel typing make it a nightmare to deal with. I feel like the roll of defensive Dark type in OU is done better by Incineroar which has better typing and movepool, baring stealth rock and rock coverage.

What are the sets that people use that make it half way good for OU?
 
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Here's some (non-exhaustive) thoughts about what I expect to change about the sets mons currently run in OU.

:terrakion:
Terrakion can be soft-checked by our new extremely physically defensive additions Slowbro and Tangrowth to varying extents. Additionally, Azumarill can check it offensively as well. Personally, I expect it to fall off a little bit. The primary change I expect from Terrakion is the incorporation of Megahorn into its banded sets, resulting in a set of Stone Edge / Close Combat / Earthquake / Megahorn. The uses of this move were pretty fringe, but Slowbro's and Tangrowth's addition push it into relevance. Megahorn 2HKOs physically defensive variants of Slowbro and Tangrowth easily, while CC is a non-guaranteed 2HKO on phys def Tangrowth, and Stone Edge doesn't even 2HKO phys def Slowbro. It also hits some weirdos like Celebi and Mew.

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 264-312 (67.1 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 240-284 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pretty good stuff. I think it's unlikely that we'll see Megahorn on anything besides Banded (or scarfed if that comes into favour) sets but it's a pretty cool new tech that Terrakion got this generation that it can put into effect.

:cinderace:
Cinderace doesn't actually handle Slowbro very well at all. The typical Bulk Up set usually only has Sucker Punch as the best move to hit it which just is way too inconsistent. I personally expect to see more Gunk Shot on Cinderace instead. Gunk Shot at +1 has a small chance at 2HKOing physically defensive Slowbro, improved if you factor in Gunk Shot's poison chance. Gunk Shot also handles Primarina, Azumarill, and can do a bit more than average to the ostensibly fringe Talonflame which some people brought up as a Cinderace check. If you're picking coverage to complement this, you'll probably want Zen Headbutt for Toxapex and I guess Pyro Ball for Aegislash + other steels? Resulting in what I expect to be the prevailing BU Cinderace set, which is Bulk Up / Gunk Shot / Zen Headbutt / Pyro Ball, with potentially Sucker Punch replacing one of the moves. This coverage set only really misses out on Tyranitar and Heatran. Unfortunately, it makes it so you need to time your moves really cleanly against Hippowdon. It should do just fine, but there's also the possibility that Slowbro's presence will just make BU Cinderace completely not worth using at all, which should be kept in mind.

+1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kinda depressing though isn't it? Even at +1 it still does relatively little to Slowbro.

But what if I told you there was a secret tech that obliterates Slowbro? You're surely thinking Super Fang, which I think could be a nice way of keeping both Slowbro and Toxapex low. But I'm thinking of Electro Ball.

0- SpA Libero Cinderace Electro Ball (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Previously this shitmove was only used to meme on Toxapex with about equal-or-worse effectiveness as Zen Headbutt, but Slowbro actually gives this move a valid niche! With a little investment, you can even 2HKO phys def Toxapex after rocks with this, giving it potential as an option to cover both Slowbro and Toxapex in one slot. Sorta. Definitely something worth considering for non-Bulk Up sets but will likely be a meme on the level of Timid Kartana.

:dragapult:
I think Chansey's presence and the ostensibly increased importance of stall as an archetype will actually serve to kill a lot of Dragapult's viability (sad but true). First of all, Specs will take a huge drop since it really can't do anything to Chansey except just U-turn out, which is fair I guess. Wisp + Hex variants similarly accomplish very little. Even if they run Substitute to wall Chansey, Dragapult still can't really do all that much and it becomes just a PP stallfest. If Chansey has Teleport it can pivot out to heal its burn, bring in something else safely, or just stall like that through pivoting back and forth. Bear in mind that Teleport has a healthy 32 PP that can be used to burn through all of Dragapult's PP pretty easily. And you'd think that Dragon Dance variants have little trouble with Chansey but sadly that is just not the case. The ladder Sub + DD sets have a big issue now, which is that most bulkier teams will be running a Normal and a Fairy type, meaning that due to Phantom Force's charge turn, the stall player can just pivot back and forth between Chansey and Clefable until they run out of PP if they're running Phantom Force + Dragon Darts. This has always been kind of a problem for this set, it's just that Normal types were much less common until now. So it kinda necessitates Steel Wing for Sub + DD sets, which runs into issues with coverage and power since it's just such a weak move. DD + 3 attacks fares better, but Phantom Force is still quite risky when Normal types are much more common. There's also the chance that if hard stall rises as a playstyle, we could see Unaware mons rise to greater relevance, all of which are more than capable of handling a DD Dragapult. So, based on what we know so far, it doesn't look too great for Dragapult. Tutor moves + unknown additions could result in this shaking out completely differently, but we'll see.

:gengar::chandelure::aegislash:
Now these other ghosts should do just fine. They can sub up on Chansey and break through it with CM (Chandelure) or NP (Gengar). Gengar and Aegislash being immune to Toxic means that they can just set up in Chansey's face usually, even without Sub. Gengar and Chandelure can also trick their choice items onto Chansey. But I still expect Choiced sets to fall out of favour a bit on these mons (especially Specs Aegislash) as even though Chansey can't touch them, it is still capable of gaining momentum against them thanks to its new toy Teleport. Chansey can easily pivot in, heal up if needed, then Teleport out to something that can threaten these Ghost-type breakers back, like Ditto for example.

:kyurem:
Similarly, Specs can't break Chansey (or SpDef Scizor), so we'll likely not see it as much. SubRoost seems nice but honestly loses a lot of its luster now that we know how Metronome works. I expect that SubRoost will become the standard, and we might even see SubDD as well, but Specs won't die out completely, it's still a very effective balance breaker.

:rotom-heat::hydreigon:
Chansey really shits on these guys' NP sets. I don't really think most of their sets would change, just that their effectiveness might be cut a little bit. I still expect Modest NP LO Hydreigon to be a thing, as Modest guarantees an OHKO on Chansey with +6 Draco Meteor. NP Rotom just can't do a lot to Chansey at all unfortunately.

:rillaboom:
Things are looking up for Rillaboom imo. Magnezone's presence to trap Steel-types, ostensibly less Dragapult, and the fact that certain teams will be dropping Toxapex for Slowbro as their bulky water of choice are all things it likes, not to mention its new move Grassy Glide. Amoonguss checks it sure, but Tangrowth actually doesn't check it as well as you might think unless it runs Sludge Bomb... which basically just hits Rillaboom and nothing else. I mean I could see it running it but the moveslot competes with other things. Someone posted about a Grassy Seed + Acrobatics set which honestly looks legit for killing Tangrowth and Amoonguss (as well as Kommo-o) too.
 
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OK, so can we talk about Tyranitar for a second. Does anyone feel like it is kept in the tire because of tradition up to this point. I have felt this since the SS released. That thing is just here.
Pokemon are tiered by their usage, Tyranitar hit the threshold it needed to in order to stay OU. I don't think it is that good and is probably borderline UU, which is a shame because I love this mon. It does allow you to get some type diversity on a sand core with Excadrill, instead of running Hippo. I also don't think its a terrible rocker, just outclassed by Hippo specifically, among other rockers like Kommo-o generally.

I've seen quite a few people running Specs on this thing as a lure. I actually think Scarf has some potential and I'm going to test it. Dragon Dance was initially hyped up but I haven't seen it all that much recently. Mostly because of the abundance of Hippo which phazes it out.

That being said I wouldn't be surprised to see big T-Tar drop down next cycle, especially with DLC being released this month.
 

So I want to take a moment to talk about Poliwrath and how it got one of the biggest glow ups in SwSh:

Poliwrath @ Sitrus Berry / Salac Berry
Jolly Nature
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Belly Drum
- Liquidation
- Close Combat
- Earthquake / High Horsepower / Darkest Lariat

Poliwrath was a Swift Swimmer with access to Belly Drum, but was held back due to it's horrendous Fighting-type move-pool. It's strongest move Fighting-type was Superpower, which does not work well with Belly Drum. No Close Combat. No Drain Punch. You're best move to use with Belly Drum was Brick Break. However, it's finally been gifted Close Combat AND Drain Punch (which will be great on Bulk Up sets), as well as some other toys such as Liquidation, Darkest Lariat and High Horsepower.

Darkest Lariat is notable over Throat Chop (which it got in Gen 7) in that it OHKOs 252 HP / 252 Bold Slowbro WITHOUT Stealth Rocks, while also ignoring defensive stat boosts. High Horsepower has a niche over Earthquake against Toxapex in Grassy Terrain, while still nabbing all the notable OHKOs regardless of base power difference (but it can miss).

So now Poliwrath can suffice as a Swift Swim sweeper. It does however suffer a nasty 4-Slot Move Syndrome, as it wants Darkest Lariat for regular Slowbro and Earthquake/High Horsepower for Toxapex. However, considering Volcarona is coming back, Toxapex might start running SpDef sets again and Poliwrath's Liquidation does 76.6% min at +6 in Rain to SpDef Pex.

It outruns pretty much every Choice Scarf user with Jolly Nature (except Scarf Pult even with non-speed nature), so it's harder to revenge kill especially with it's key resists to common priority moves such as Sucker Punch, Aqua Jet and Bullet Punch (though Grassy Glide Rillaboom is gonna be a big threat to it). It's bulk is overall solid, 90/95/90 is nothing to scoff at, which means it can Belly Drum against passive Pokemon or on resisted hits such as Scarf Dark Pulse from Hydreigon or Banded Bullet Punch from Scizor. Now it does have limited turns to abuse this insane speed and power at the same time, which is why Salac Berry might be useful as taking a resisted hit into Belly Drum will most likely activate it. With a Salac Berry boost, you will out-speed everything under Rain including Scarf Pult but you're more vulnerable to priority without Sitrus Berry.

Here are some key damage calcs, so you can get a grasp how strong Poliwrath can hit:
+6 252 Atk Poliwrath Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 402-474 (102 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Poliwrath Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 Atk Poliwrath High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 356-420 (117.1 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Poliwrath Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Toxapex in Rain: 233-274 (76.6 - 90.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (againt SpDef Pex when you're not running EQ/High Horse)
+6 252 Atk Poliwrath Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Toxapex: 219-258 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+6 252 Atk Poliwrath Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 390-459 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 Atk Poliwrath Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 358-423 (107.1 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Poliwrath Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon in Rain: 366-432 (112.6 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Don't even need to CC in Rain)
+6 252 Atk Poliwrath Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss in Rain: 302-356 (70 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (I'm pretty sure Amoonguss was confirmed in the latest trailer but it was blurry in the background?)
+6 252 Atk Poliwrath Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 316-372 (73.3 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+6 252 Atk Poliwrath Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper in Rain: 241-284 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (against opposing Rain)
+6 252 Atk Poliwrath Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Kommo-o: 403-475 (113.8 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So yeah, looking forward to using Poliwrath Rain in OU. As for when it inevitably drops to the lower tiers, Sub Bulk Up or Sub Belly Drum with Drain Punch seems really decent with Water Absorb to 1v1 bulky Water-types.
 
I was thinking about Azumarill and I am wondering possibly if Sap Sipper may actullay have a stronger niche now if the likes of Rillaboom and Tantagrowth become preavlent in the meta.

Sap Sipping Azu can possibly get a free Belly Drum setup or an Attack boost at worse to kind of make up for not having Huge Power.

It can also possibly set up and really hurt Ferrothorn tosince it cannot be seeded and not even Gyro Ball will to much to it.
eing immune to a Giga Drain from Volc which is it's only effective attack against it
 
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I was thinking about Azumarill and I am wondering possibly if Sap Sipper may actullay have a stronger niche now if the likes of Rillaboom and Tantagrowth become preavlent in the meta.

Sap Sipping Azu can possibly get a free Belly Drum setup or an Attack boost at worse to kind of make up for not having Huge Power.

It can also possibly set up and really hurt Ferrothorn tosince it cannot be seeded and not even Gyro Ball will to much to it.
eing immune to a Giga Drain from Volc which is it's only effective attack against it
I can see those being niches, but Azu sucks offensively without Huge Power, and defensively, it lacks reliable recovery.
The other issue is that it won’t do much to anything else, and as Grass checks go, Ferrothorn, Corviknight, and Tangrowth do a better job in general.
You could cheese the opponent with Whirlpool, but that’s about it.
 
SubRoost seems nice but honestly loses a lot of its luster now that we know how Metronome works.
Was there some recent mechanical discovery which invalidated the set, or do you just mean that people have gotten more familiar with that item and have adapted better to it?
 

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Was there some recent mechanical discovery which invalidated the set, or do you just mean that people have gotten more familiar with that item and have adapted better to it?
Metronome was implemented wrongly for a while; Metronome boosts are reset if the user misses, hits into Protect, or a Pokemon that is immune. With Teleport Clefable's popularity and this mechanic properly implemented, Substitute + Roost Kyurem does not have any good way to break past Clefable.
 
Metronome was implemented wrongly for a while; Metronome boosts are reset if the user misses, hits into Protect, or a Pokemon that is immune. With Teleport Clefable's popularity and this mechanic properly implemented, Substitute + Roost Kyurem does not have any good way to break past Clefable.
So does this mean Kyurem as a pokemon has no way to reliably damage Clefable? (Dumb question, but seems interesting given this)

Anyways, moving on, what are some pokemon that might get hit very hard when the new DLC drops? I'm kinda curious as to what pokemon might drop in viability when the DLC does drop in around 9 hours at the time of this post because we've already talked about pokemon that might benefit, but what about pokemon that might hurt from the DLC?
 
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