Pet Mod SS OU Theorymon (Completed)

Okay votings over!

Count:
Zarude: 12
Mamo: 5
Marowak-A: 0
Cresselia: 0

So, with an overwhelming majority, Zarude wins the first slate!
Now onto our next slate:

:ss/diancie: +10 HP and Sand Stream
:ss/quagsire: +20 Sp.Def
:ss/starmie: + 15 SpA, + Mystical Fire
:ss/tangrowth: +Spikes

A more defensively oriented slate on the whole, I think. As always, discuss which you think is the strongest, and send any submissions you have to me! As a reminder, I am still looking for Council members, so send me a DM if youre interested in applying! Have fun!
 
Initial thoughts:

:diancie: This becomes insanely bulky in sand. Luckily, it doesn't have recovery, and most of the types it's weak to are dominated by physical attackers. However, I'm still not sure I want something that enables sand stall as much as this does.
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Diancie in Sand: 78-92 (24 - 28.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

:quagsire: yes

ok but actually, this is just a generally nice improvement, nothing insane. Quagsire is already usable, and this allows it to check a few more threats without being overwhelming.

:starmie: The special attack boost is very nice for Starmie, as 15 is enough to enable a few more relevant KOs (I'm sure someone else will know which ones specifically). However, while I understand Mystical Fire to hit Steels and any bulky Grasses that are Ice-neutral, I don't really think Starmie has room on its moveset to run it, so I'm not 100% on this one. Utility spinner sets may run it, but I don't think those will break into OU.

:tangrowth: Spikes finally allows Tangrowth to step out from behind Ferrothorn's shadow without completely outclassing it. I think this buff is a very healthy one overall, as Tangrowth now has more options for team support, while still keeping many of its weaknesses. Probably my favorite buff this slate. (edit part 2: as G-Luke said, this thing wants to use its moveslots for other things, so Sleep Powder+Spikes isn't particularly optimal, and leaves it rather passive overall. Also, Roserade already gets this combo, if you need further convincing)
 
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:diancie: Now I'm all for making this even more thicc and the Fairy/Rock typing makes it quite strong into stuff like Torn and Volc. The +10 HP is nice and all but Sand Stream makes this really good at being a blanket check to various Special attackers.

+2 252 SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 136 SpD Diancie in Sand: 144-170 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 136 SpD Diancie in Sand: 128-152 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 136 SpD Diancie in Sand: 93-111 (28.7 - 34.2%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. -1 252 HP / 136 SpD Diancie in Sand: 141-166 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I don't see it becoming an amazing addition to the tier but it should have enough room as a bulky SR setter and Specially Defensive pivot to work for certain builds and I quite like that. Helps that Diancie naturally has good Special coverage between STABs + Earth Power + Mystical Fire for hitting common Special Attackers, and can opt for Diamond Storm to dispatch Volc in a single (inaccurate) hit and also just fish for +2 Def procs.


:quagsire: Would be good for Stall as it's now better into Heatran, might make it good enough for other balance builds too but this is a big momentum drain and the extra bulk doesn't help fix that.


:starmie: 115 Speed isn't what it used to be sadly, but you would get a sizeable chunk of utility out of this if you really tried. With Fire coverage and extra power behind its attacks Starmie can now function as an offensive check to both Kartana and Blacephalon in a single slot. Rapid Spin and its various other good moves like Ice Beam, Flip Turn, and Recover definitely look appealing, but I still feel like it gets outsped by too many dangerous mons to cut it and it seriously wishes it had like 8 moveslots to work with.


:tangrowth: lmao holy shit spikes tangrowth would be so annoying to face. The worst part about Tang is that is often struggles to make use out of the free turns it can generate, especially if it's already used Sleep Powder. Spikes lets it make actual progress as the opponent switches out, especially when you factor in its support options like the aforementioned Sleep Powder and stuff like Knock Off, Toxic, Leech Seed, etc. which it can use to harass Defoggers that might want to come in on it. Having a Spiker that doesn't need to spend turns healing itself thanks to Regenerator sounds genuinely insane. A bit too much on this one IMO
 
:diancie:It probably wouldn’t be broken but I don’t like the amount of special bulk this gets.As seen in Beaf’s calc,the special bulk is obscene and I’m not voting for this one.
:Quagsire:I quite like this buff,not just because it’s Quagsire,but also because it bumps its SpDef up to be equal to it’s physical,allowing it to tank hits on either side depending on investment.Will probably be voting for this one.
:starmie:Pretty decent,nothing else to say.
:tangrowth:This would be a pain to deal with.Having Spikes on this thing that has Sleep and Regen is,well,not my preference.
 
i'm gonna end up repeating what the others say so i'll make it short

:diancie:it would be, Very specially bulky. i think it can still be countered with those physical attackers and chip damage (if they can safely do that because as i recall this thing can just buff up it's defense with diamond storm).

:quagsire: the best boy. i think this buff will make it pretty solid as both a physical and defensive wall. though i will be pissed to face against it and its unaware ability like goddamn, i still like this buff.

:starmie: yeah no thoughts here. it's a good buff with the addition of mystical fire, but the speed would just let it down in the tier. (unless you go for Agility brrr). i wouldn't mind this though.

:tangrowth: i think there's a reason why mons who can put sleep rarely have other hazards, which is well, yeah you can probably tell. this can intensely buff tangrowth onto OU, whether it's a healthy buff or not. i think if it got stealth rocks instead it wouldn't be too bad? m a y b e—?
 
:diancie:
It was me, Barry.
But anyway, Diancie gains alot from these buffs, being able to function as an effective SpD Wall in OU.

And to be fair on certain calcs, it's approximately just as bulky as Tyranitar

252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 104-124 (25.7 - 30.6%) -- 2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Diancie in Sand: 78-94 (24 - 29%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

I do understand if people are wary of voting for it, though.

:Quagsire:
It's an objective buff, but imo the least interesting one. Quagsire is still gonna play it's role as as an Unaware Wall, it probably takes a special attack a bit better, but that's it.

:Starmie:
Starmie's biggest hurdle imo is the dodgy typing. Electric, Dark and Ghost weaknesses is really annoying in OU. But in actuality, this Starmie buff is pretty massive for it. Analytic goes really hard, and allows it to do some spicy calcs like this

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 368-434 (51.5 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 243-289 (61.6 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I guess Mystical Fire is for Ferrothorn, but honestly it may drop it for Hydro Pump / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam [or Psyshock] / Recover. As I said before, multiple crippling weaknesses and it's garbage HP are what are truly holding it back right now.

:Tangrowth:
One of my favorites, if not favorites. People talking about Sleep + Spikes, as if Tangrowth has the slots to run ALL of that + Knock + EQ / Focus Blast + Synthesis. Spikes will mostly usurp Sleep Powder as the customizable 4th slot, instead of being ran along side it, as Tangrowth simoky lacks the slots to pull this of without gimping itself in sone other way, and for that it's why I'll be voting for it. Everyone explained why its great already, I just wanted to clear up the confusion peope are having.
 
:diancie:
Idt this mod is supposed to care about flavour, but disturbing a mythical’s 600BST rubs me the wrong way. Setting that aside, Diancie becomes super fat specially but it has no recovery and is 4x weak to the best type in the game, so there’s really not too much reason to run this over something like Blissey for a blanket special attacker check or Hippo as a defensive sand setter. Offensive sets are funny but this mon’s middling offensive stats and speed tier regularly let it down, just run TTar. Fwiw I’ve messed around with Diancie quite a bit in OU recently and the only set to show even slight success was OTR MBeam, which doesn’t significantly benefit from this, so lol.

:quagsire:
Mon’s already good on stall and this change doesn’t give it the tools to be viable on other archetypes, so I’m not really in favour of a 20-25% increase to SpDef, its main weakness. A physdef buff would be a lot more appealing imo, albeit still boring.

:starmie:
I’m not sure if I’m allowed to say this, but this was my sub, so consider this more of a justification than an opinion if you’d like. Starmie has unfortunately fallen off hard in recent gens, but still functions decently enough as an offensive spinner. Mystical Fire likely won’t see frequent use as Starm’s always suffered from some bad 4MSS, but emulates the now-dexited HP Fire’s use as a decent option to catch would-be switchins, especially Ferro, off guard. The main draw here is a pretty big buff to its SpA, combining with Analytic, a decent speed tier, and its billion coverage options to make it very scary for the opponent to switch around. It’s also worth mentioning that, while Starmie‘s speed tier does leave it outsped and revenged by a bunch of newer threats in the tier like Koko and Pult and Zeraora, Gen 8’s Spin buff lets it outspeed all of these if it gets one off, as well as just about every scarfer in the tier, making it even scarier. Don’t sleep on this mon, whether the buff goes through or not.

:tangrowth:
This is a really good change, actually. Everything and their dog runs Boots this gen, and between that and a lack of good Spike setters in OU, hazard stacking has really fallen off this gen. Sure, Sleep + Spikes + Regen sounds annoying on paper and all, but Spikes + Knock + Regen feels like the real niche of this mon, allowing it to play the long game and bring back hazard spam builds in a unique way. I approve.

TLDR Starmie and Tang good, Quag meh, Diancie bad
 
Tapler said:
I’m not sure if I’m allowed to say this, but this was my sub, so consider this more of a justification than an opinion if you’d like.
Click to expand...

Fwiw I personally like the idea of people explaining the reasoning behind their subs to change peoples minds. I would write a line or two about every mon but I would rather the people who sent them in go ahead and put it to words better than I could. Obviously dont start a fight over it, but feel free to defend your subs if you think people are sleeping on them.
 
Here's my thoughts:
:diancie: This is a pretty huge buff statistically, as others have said. However, Tyranitar has similar bulk and sees almost no use running defensive sets at the moment. Let's see what you check (assuming no future buffs):

Non-Steel move Heatran (though if you wanted this buff mainly to add a new Heatran check I'd strongly recommend against, since Flash Cannon/Heavy Slam would just be defaults if this was common)
Dragapult
Tornadus-T
Volcarona
Blacephalon
Volcarona
Victini
Zapdos
Galarian Moltres

This looks like a lot, but on the other hand, Tyranitar checks all this stuff with similar bulk (and trades Diancie's 4x weakness for a slightly worse one) and has barely any usage. I don't think this will be much good for the same reason - no recovery and the need to check lots of stuff leaves it worn down really quickly, it's really passive, and as a rocker it can't pressure the most important Defoggers in Landorus-T and Corviknight at all. You might want to run an offensive set on it, but then it really is just a worse Tyranitar.

:quagsire: Stall would rather Quagsire had more physical defense, since it can be a secondary check to Heatran and beat Tapu Koko at the moment, and 95/85 isn't enough bulk to deal with anything notable, eg:
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire in Psychic Terrain: 219-258 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

If you're running a specially defensive spread you lose to Garchomp, Weavile and Melmetal, thus rather defeating the point of using Quagsire, so this is a bit of a worthless buff.

:starmie: I think this is the best option here. +15 SpA is enough to get some notable KOes, as others say above, making Starmie a potent wallbreaker with some nice defensive utility versus threats like Heatran and Urshifu-R. Mystical Fire won't be that useful though with massive four-moveslot syndrome, I'd rather run Magnezone support to deal with Ferrothorn and go Hydro Pump / Psyshock / Thunderbolt / Recover to hit Waters, Blissey and Galarian Slowking hard enough.

:tangrowth: Spikes is obviously an improvement. I don't think saying that "sleep users get to do nothing else" is quite true - look at Breloom in past gens. Spikes Tangrowth would just be the defensive version of that. Being a hazard setter with Knock Off is pretty good as Ferrothorn shows. The big thing is that you get major four-moveslot syndrome - you need Focus Blast to be able to check Kartana, Giga Drain to hit Ground-types, and Sleep Powder and Knock Off to not be passive into Flying- and Steel-types. Where does Spikes go? I assume Knock Off personally, since Spikes looks to me like it replaces it as the main free turn abusing move. Also yet another potential setter for hazard stack that, like Ferrothorn and Skarmory, doesn't consistently beat any Defogger. If you really want to make hazard stack more viable, we need a Spiker that actually keeps up hazards against at least two of Landorus-T, Corviknight and Tornadus-T - maybe an Ice or Electric-type would be good?
 
Can we ban Diancie, it is too constricting on play. Despite it being lower tiered since it’s introduction Diancie is far too constricting in the builder, due to its insane natural bulk, and solid offensive stats, and absolutely bonkers movepool. This thing is a monster that should be banned, I run into a game with somebody that’s running Diancie I forfeit on preview. Unless I have something that hard counters it I lose, that’s it. Ban Diancie. I try to use balance I lose, I try to use offense I use stall. Always losing to Diancie, ban it now. I don’t care about the mega form, it’s bad.

Yeah this wont change it that much, but I had to send it.
 
Voting will be up tomorrow! Get the last bits of discussion in! I've seen a lot of concern that Tangrowth and Diancie might be too much, so now would be the time to sway other people on whichever side of the border you fall on.
 
i think im on either tangrowth or starmie on this one. as far as i'm reading, quag doesn't seem to change much. diancie is of course an excellent buff, but it makes you have to use super effective moves against it if you don't have boosted attack stats up and going, so it kinda limits teambuilding. as some people have also said, run ttar. man's got the bulk and the attack. i wouldn't mind if this was resubbed though, depending on the metagame.

and then there's the two who suffer from four move syndrome. i think both are good, one can be a mid to late game sweeper and the other can be a physical tank who sets up spikes. with the insight of the others in this forum i've learnt that tangrowth isn't as scary, but the buff would definitely improve it.

and just for a lil haha, i did the calcs for tangrowth against zarude.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 192-226 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 174-205 (43 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 122-144 (30.1 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

yeah, it's solid against the new zarude. the only thing that tangrowth needs to be wary of is if it knocks out zarude's item and it has acrobatics. or if it's a bulk-up set. still can't figure who to vote for tho—
 
lavarina said:
and just for a lil haha, i did the calcs for tangrowth against zarude.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 192-226 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 174-205 (43 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 122-144 (30.1 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

yeah, it's solid against the new zarude. the only thing that tangrowth needs to be wary of is if it knocks out zarude's item and it has acrobatics. or if it's a bulk-up set. still can't figure who to vote for tho—
Click to expand...
That's assuming Leftovers though, which is suboptimal compared to Rocky Helmet or Heavy-Duty Boots, and also what about Stealth Rock?
Anyway, you'll be able to test Zarude properly soon, as we should be getting an OU Theorymon ladder on the Pet Mods Showdown server:
Showdown! (dragonheaven.herokuapp.com)
 
TailGlowVM said:
That's assuming Leftovers though, which is suboptimal compared to Rocky Helmet or Heavy-Duty Boots, and also what about Stealth Rock?
Anyway, you'll be able to test Zarude properly soon, as we should be getting an OU Theorymon ladder on the Pet Mods Showdown server:
Showdown! (dragonheaven.herokuapp.com)
Click to expand...
oops, forgot to account that (also theorymon ladder hype lets go, ty TailGlow)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 174-205 (43 - 50.7%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 174-205 (43 - 50.7%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 174-205 (43 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

kinda surprised it can still take hits from banded Zarude, but oh well-
 
Alright everyone! The slate is now open for voting! Please remember to only vote for one of the four options!
 
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