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Pet Mod SS OU Theorymon (Completed)
- Thread starter Ardy
- Start date
zoroark and darm
I realise i never got to tear down Darm apart, but trust me when i say this particular sub sucks a lot. Not only does thunderous kick has tremendously horrible flavor (sorry you will have to hear me complain about this again), but its way too reliable of a stab. The whole point of darm is that its best stabs are unreliable to balance its powerful damage output. Otherwise i would approve of darm with fire fighting type, but not with that move addition. There is also the fact that this makes thunderous kick its prime stab which from a design perspective feels rather awful. You are giving a normal mon a LEGENDARY exclusive, which doesn't fit its design at all, nor was it a stab from its original typing, which makes it rely on that move for progress. It just feels off to me.
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prim was veoted btw
Missed it...well just Darmanitan.
Alright everyone, voting is over!
kingdra: 6
darm: 13
zoroark: 18
A somewhat predictable outcome. Zoroark and Darmanitan will be added to the metagame!
Now, onto the next slate!
+ Parting Shot
+ Regenerator + 15 HP
+ Poison Heal (replaces Hydration)
+ Filter + 10HP
+ Magic Bounce + Parting Shot
However, that is not all for this slate!
For those of you who have played the meta or even just watched a replay or two, it will be obvious how threatening Tough Claws Zarude is. Even with a -10 attack nerf a while back, the consensus was it felt incredibly overwhelming and put a stranglehold on teambuilding. Therefore, Tough Claws will be removed from Zarude.
It would be a pity to leave our first ever buffed mon behind, however, so we also have a special Zarude slate for you this week! These are proposed changes that would replace Tough Claws as a Zarude buff.
+ Flower Veil
+ Technician
+ Swords Dance
+ Moxie
+ Intimidate
As always, you have around 5 days of discussion!
kingdra: 6
darm: 13
zoroark: 18
A somewhat predictable outcome. Zoroark and Darmanitan will be added to the metagame!
Now, onto the next slate!
+ Parting Shot + Regenerator + 15 HP + Poison Heal (replaces Hydration) + Filter + 10HP + Magic Bounce + Parting ShotHowever, that is not all for this slate!
For those of you who have played the meta or even just watched a replay or two, it will be obvious how threatening Tough Claws Zarude is. Even with a -10 attack nerf a while back, the consensus was it felt incredibly overwhelming and put a stranglehold on teambuilding. Therefore, Tough Claws will be removed from Zarude.
It would be a pity to leave our first ever buffed mon behind, however, so we also have a special Zarude slate for you this week! These are proposed changes that would replace Tough Claws as a Zarude buff.
+ Flower Veil + Technician + Swords Dance + Moxie + IntimidateAs always, you have around 5 days of discussion!
Kinda neat. I like that its pivoting that doesn't worry about barbs/helmet. I am not sure how much this helps its viability.
This is pretty cool. I like the typing and it should be able to offensively and defensively use Regen.
Not really a fan. I've seen better PHeal subs proposed.
Mon exists to be fat and that's pretty much it. I know I've been advocating for defensive subs, but this feels very one-dimensional and bland. Like it just sets rocks and just sits there.
Flower Veil is mine, so I'd like to explain it. I based it on its current Bulk Up set, and Flower Veil fixes the two main issues these sets have: vulnerability to status (especially Toxic), and stat drops (really doesn't care about Lando-T now). Even if it sticks with pivoting sets (it has U-Turn), it gains a pretty incredible role as a fat Grass that doesn't care about Scald burns (since it can't be burned). The other sub I like is Intimidate.
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+ Parting Shot: I don't like this one. Wonder Guard itself is such a finnicky ability that given an insane pivot move like Parting Shot could be stupidly annoying. I'm not sure it would be broken, but it just hits me the wrong way. + Regenerator + 15 HP: AV Turtonator sounds pretty fun on this. Only takes 41% from Specs Pult Shadow Ball max, and scarf Blaceph does even less. Can also take hits from Weavile and Zarude. Doesn't get 2HKOd by Offensive Heatrans EP, and easily 2HKOs with Scorching Sands or Focus Blast. Very interesting nom that I may vote for. + Poison Heal (replaces Hydration): Some healing on Goodra is always good. Specs Pult shadow ball doesnt even 3HKO, once again Scarf Blaceph is even worse. Absolutely walls Regieleki, Koko doesn't 2HKO with Gleam, and gets threatened by Sludge Wave. Okay nom, not sure Ill vote for it. + Filter: Ema Skye put it best. Very bland, one dimensional mon. It would be viable with the bulk, but no real flavor to it. + Magic Bounce + Parting Shot: I disagree with Ema on this one for one reason. Foul Play. This move is so slept on, and you don't realize it until your +2 Garchomp gets OHKOd by it. Using a Foul Play Wish-Tect set with Parting Shot to get slow pivots to heal your offensive teammates sounds great. I'm actually a big fan of this sub more for the WishShot potential than the Magic Bounce potential. + Intimidate:idk why I like this so much. Maybe it's because putting a Weavile at -1 changes the entire matchup in Zarudes favor. Living a -1 Triple Axel and BODYING it back, but also reducing Zarudes overall damage output so it can actually be stopped.
+ Filter:Anyone who has played SS UU to some extent knows how threatening ID + amnesia registeel is especially after it gets a boost, with filter it can sustain longer against the very powercrept meta and is able to take on some pokemon 1v1 that it otherwise would most likely not be able to like heatran after a amnesia and landorus-t and bulky chomp after a ID boost. THis is a great pokemon on balance to stall builds that love a great bulky win con. While one dimensional it can be very powerful lmao and flavour never matters here as much and if you guys want to nitpick I sure can.
+ Magic Bounce + Parting Shot:Umbreon can sustain itself and foul play, wish tect, parting shot or toxic depending on if ur on full stall or on balance focused builds is all it needs as it beats every single rocker in existance of ou and ferro as well. This is somethnig nice now... lando-t is now afraid to toxic ur lando cuz u might just switch out to umbreon or set rocks up, heatran can no longer trap umbreon due to MB. This makes stall a lot better and makes semi stall a lot better to as it beats a lot of rockers and can relieve a ton of pressure via wish and being able to shut down most physical boosters via foul play and parting shot to offensive teammates or on stall teams cripple them with toxic
+ Parting Shotsounds pretty good in all honesty, improves stall by allowing shed to just not be dead weight on it as it can pivot out with parting shot and not forfeit momentum to stuff like heatran even thought it can annoy stuff with toxic + wisp, parting shot gives it a way of bringing in other members safely and weaken the opponents moves. I believe this can also be used on semi stall for pivoting an offensive booster such as SD weavile on a weakened target such as pivot torn, dragonite, and garchomp. It gives it use on stall team and can make them much better than what they usually were. I believe it is to hard for it to fit on a balance team as its weaknesses are to great to be fit there and its to weak to accomplish anything.
+ Regenerator + 15 HP"Becomes a very solid physical wall/pivot. Still suffers from a rocks weakness, but Regenerator helps overcome that and also makes White Herb Shell Smash sets much more viable (if still pretty gimmicky). Shell Trap finally being a usable move is another plus." Sounds about right.... shell trap lures in pokemon like lando, zeraora, and weavile while punishing u-turn attempts and can do solid damage even without any investment such as doing almost 50 to lando with rocks + the attack with regen it allows it to do it consistently
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 140+ Def Turtonator: 188-224 (53.1 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
112 SpA Turtonator Shell Trap vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 141-166 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+ Poison Heal (replaces Hydration)Knock immune pokemon that functions as awall with good recovery... Physically its frail im not going to argue that but specially its something else like with sp. def ev's it is able to take on dragapault, blace, heatran, torn-t, victini, and zeraora well and can threaten most pokemon with a powerful draco even when uninvested
umbreon and registeel definitely take the cake, pif would be so happy if registeel won :]
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On a more serious note, my opinions are
Swords Dance > Flower Veil > Technician > Intimidate > Moxie
Reasons are that Swords Dance fits more into the original sub for helping break past walls without the instant boost that made it broken. Flower Veil is a neat ability and helps with Bulk Up sets and would be a nice addition. Technician sounds cool and can be used for some unique options but seems less useful. Intimidate sounds interesting but might be a bit annoying but I don't really know. Moxie sounds overall fine but I prefer all the other buffs over it.
Only doing Zarude because I have very little competitive knowledge but I like shedinja so its cool.
votes would be for
SD
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Big Slate. Time to review.
Sub feels very uninteresting to me. I have always been distasteful of subs make or the express purpose of validating a singular playstype instead of adding a worthwhile Pokémon and I think this is that. This is only a buff for stall, a very specific variant of stall in fact. As for the Pokémon itself? It is an objective buff for sure, not sure how well this will serve it long term though, as even with Parting Shot Shedinja simply will not become a stall staple Pokémon, and this is highlighted further with the absense of a Magic Bounce user, which I feel is necessary to any great Shed stall team. So yeah Shedinja + Umbreon are essentially a dual ultra pack, and that just rubs me very wrong. I don't intend on wasting a vote slot on giving a small buff to a sub variant of a an already niche playstyle, that demands you must vote for something else anyways.
I feel exactly the opposite about this thing. This Pokémon is cool! Fire type Regenerator Pokémon have always been an interesting avenue to explore, and while imo Turt lacks certain tools that would imo rank it as great Pokémon, it has JUST enough to give it a niche on Balance and Bulky Offense as a sort of check to certain strong Pokémon while maintaining a form of offensive presense. Lack of reliable recovery and great status moves really hurt the usefulness of a Heavy Duty Boots set, which sucks because this Pokémon REALLY wants HDB. No Knock Off, U-turn or a Future Sight esq clone also makes Assault Vest sets a bit strapped for utility options to run. I feel this is what truly holds it back from being one of the best options available, both from a teambuilder standpoint and on this very slate, but it is still a strong contender to get in.
Similiar to the Dragon above, with more or less the same favtors at play here. Poison Heal is big for Goodra, allowing it to be a status and Knock Off sponge is very cool, and definitely improves its defensive profile. Its major issue here is that, similar to Turt, it HEAVILY relies on the utility that just its stats and ability provide, with its utility / defensive movepool bejng limited to just Dragon Tail. I am thus a bit unsure on HOW I'd build with Goodra, and more specifically why I'd add it to my team - it doesn't spread any status sans Toxic, the most benign of options, it cannot set nor remove hazards, and while decent, its defensive typing is not the most thrilling thing in the world, essentially just boiling down to some elemental resists. Goodra's best bet imo is to hunker down on a more offensively leaning set that just how happens to be hard to wear down, or try it's hand at Curse sets, these would be a quite the hassle to punish once it has a few boosts under it's belt. All in all, i think its a bit worse than Turt, something like a B-/ low B tier Pokémon.
If we are looking at this objectively, it is the best Pokémon slated. 90/150/150 bulk with Reflect goes BANANAS and allows it to fit on all manner of builds from hard Stall to Balance relatively easy, and would cement itself as a top Steel even while lacking recovery. It is not a sub that particularly grabs me however, largely for the same reasons Ema stated. I generally like somewhat more dynamic Pokemon, and if they are not dynamic I want them to trupy be THE blanket Pokémon (Blissey). I will not, however, deny just how good of a Pokémon this Registeel would be (again FAR and away the best sub here).
Jokes, lastly we have here Umbreon. I think this is actually a really good submission [for stall]. Umbreon packs the coveted Magic Bounce ability, which is highly useful to repel not only hazards and status, but also more niche applications like Leech Seed, Taunt and Encore, all of which are a pain for [stall] teams to handle. It can sustain itself with Wish, and can double as a means to help it's [stall] teammates sustain themselves throughout the course of the match. Parting Shot is definitely a cool bonus as well, but imo would largely prefer Toxic [on stall squads] to give it a lesser chance of being set up bait. All in all, Umbreon is a pretty stellar submission [for stall teams].
If you noticed, I had the pretext of stall on most if the talkjng points I brought up here, and that is due to Umbreon here largely being deadweight anywhere else. Umbreon can bounce back Stealth Rock sure, but does next to nothing back in return. Having Foul Play as your only means of damage output is easily exploitable, and WishTect as your only means of recovery is double so. This Pokémon would live and die by the move Parting Shot here, while good, can be aomething that will be rather predictable and can be exploited by a careful and intelligent player. Also, Dark is not really a good defensive typing at all, outside of checking specfically Ghost types it operates as a much more inferior version of Steel. There is a reason people stacked Steels and not run double Darks during the height of the Psychic type reign in Gen 7. In conclusion, if you fucks with Stall, this is one if your go to subs this slate. If not, not sure what you are voting for.
In summary, these subs are all interestjng to varying degrees, and perhaps maybe outside of Shedinja or MAYBE Goodra, I do not think there are any wrong answers here. Whatever you pick is pretty much just determined on what playstyles you like to pursue in the metagame. I personally will probably vote for x .
For the Zarudes? I'll keep if brief <spoilers, I DID NOT>. Flower Veil is an ok buff, but feels a lot more underwhelming when people realise Zarude's sole niche in OU before it became TC Choice Locker, was that of a Stallbreaker uncrippled by Status. Flower Veil does take that one step further and makes it so you never get statused, but I think Zarude never truly struggled in that department due to how intelligently the Pokemon was designed. The Intimidate immunity is great though. Technician is rather interesting, as it seeks to buff Zarude's damahe output in a more consise and reserved way with Technician, making Bullet Seed a hell of a move to switch ibto, and making Bite's flinch shenanigans a comical sight to behold. Not sure what else Zarude gets that benefits the ability though, if it got Beat Up that would legit be amazing. Intimidate is pretty cool, makes specifically its Scarf and Boots set ftom lower tiers much more interesting to play against and utilize, but leaving Bulk Up sets in the dust, as Intim doesn't really help it set up versus the targets it wants. Still imo, my second favorite sub here. Moxie just makes BU Zarude a snowballer, which is perfectly fine, as it strengthens its current niche in OU, but not enough to be worthwhile imo (I'd think even with Moxie Scarf Zarude doesn't go off unless the opposimg team is HEAVILY weakened). Of course I am biased since I made this contribution, but I truly think Swords Dance is the best way to go about bolstering Zarude's success. Zarude's major problem was damage output, leaving Zarude unable to threaten most playstyles outside of fat with Bulk Up specifically because Choice sets were too easy to punish to be worth locking into, and Bulk Up did put enough immediate breaking pressure on more offensive teams. Swords Dance attempts to alleviate that issue, as a +2 Zarude is a much more immediate and threatening Pokémon for Balance and Offense alike, and not spending two turns to get to that level is a gamechanger, without pushing Zarude's immediate power through the roof into dumb levels Tough Claws did. Of course you will need to find set up opportunities, but I think one would be surprised (or not if you have been plsying OU Theorymon) at Zarude's natural bulk giving it ample mwans to exploit your defensive core without probably massacring your entire Offensive team ala Weavile. That is a great way to look at Swords Dance Zarude actually - balanced Weavile. In conclusion, I am shocked no one did the +15 Atk or even Knock Off, those would have been huge too. You know what I am voting for here, so I will just rank how good I think the Zarude buffs are - SD followed very closely by Intimidate, a sizable gap, then Moxie=Flower Veil, then Technician*, which is wildly subject to change purely based on what moves outside of Bullet Seed and Bite does Zarude have cooking.
Sub feels very uninteresting to me. I have always been distasteful of subs make or the express purpose of validating a singular playstype instead of adding a worthwhile Pokémon and I think this is that. This is only a buff for stall, a very specific variant of stall in fact. As for the Pokémon itself? It is an objective buff for sure, not sure how well this will serve it long term though, as even with Parting Shot Shedinja simply will not become a stall staple Pokémon, and this is highlighted further with the absense of a Magic Bounce user, which I feel is necessary to any great Shed stall team. So yeah Shedinja + Umbreon are essentially a dual ultra pack, and that just rubs me very wrong. I don't intend on wasting a vote slot on giving a small buff to a sub variant of a an already niche playstyle, that demands you must vote for something else anyways.
I feel exactly the opposite about this thing. This Pokémon is cool! Fire type Regenerator Pokémon have always been an interesting avenue to explore, and while imo Turt lacks certain tools that would imo rank it as great Pokémon, it has JUST enough to give it a niche on Balance and Bulky Offense as a sort of check to certain strong Pokémon while maintaining a form of offensive presense. Lack of reliable recovery and great status moves really hurt the usefulness of a Heavy Duty Boots set, which sucks because this Pokémon REALLY wants HDB. No Knock Off, U-turn or a Future Sight esq clone also makes Assault Vest sets a bit strapped for utility options to run. I feel this is what truly holds it back from being one of the best options available, both from a teambuilder standpoint and on this very slate, but it is still a strong contender to get in.
Similiar to the Dragon above, with more or less the same favtors at play here. Poison Heal is big for Goodra, allowing it to be a status and Knock Off sponge is very cool, and definitely improves its defensive profile. Its major issue here is that, similar to Turt, it HEAVILY relies on the utility that just its stats and ability provide, with its utility / defensive movepool bejng limited to just Dragon Tail. I am thus a bit unsure on HOW I'd build with Goodra, and more specifically why I'd add it to my team - it doesn't spread any status sans Toxic, the most benign of options, it cannot set nor remove hazards, and while decent, its defensive typing is not the most thrilling thing in the world, essentially just boiling down to some elemental resists. Goodra's best bet imo is to hunker down on a more offensively leaning set that just how happens to be hard to wear down, or try it's hand at Curse sets, these would be a quite the hassle to punish once it has a few boosts under it's belt. All in all, i think its a bit worse than Turt, something like a B-/ low B tier Pokémon.
If we are looking at this objectively, it is the best Pokémon slated. 90/150/150 bulk with Reflect goes BANANAS and allows it to fit on all manner of builds from hard Stall to Balance relatively easy, and would cement itself as a top Steel even while lacking recovery. It is not a sub that particularly grabs me however, largely for the same reasons Ema stated. I generally like somewhat more dynamic Pokemon, and if they are not dynamic I want them to trupy be THE blanket Pokémon (Blissey). I will not, however, deny just how good of a Pokémon this Registeel would be (again FAR and away the best sub here).
Jokes, lastly we have here Umbreon. I think this is actually a really good submission [for stall]. Umbreon packs the coveted Magic Bounce ability, which is highly useful to repel not only hazards and status, but also more niche applications like Leech Seed, Taunt and Encore, all of which are a pain for [stall] teams to handle. It can sustain itself with Wish, and can double as a means to help it's [stall] teammates sustain themselves throughout the course of the match. Parting Shot is definitely a cool bonus as well, but imo would largely prefer Toxic [on stall squads] to give it a lesser chance of being set up bait. All in all, Umbreon is a pretty stellar submission [for stall teams].
If you noticed, I had the pretext of stall on most if the talkjng points I brought up here, and that is due to Umbreon here largely being deadweight anywhere else. Umbreon can bounce back Stealth Rock sure, but does next to nothing back in return. Having Foul Play as your only means of damage output is easily exploitable, and WishTect as your only means of recovery is double so. This Pokémon would live and die by the move Parting Shot here, while good, can be aomething that will be rather predictable and can be exploited by a careful and intelligent player. Also, Dark is not really a good defensive typing at all, outside of checking specfically Ghost types it operates as a much more inferior version of Steel. There is a reason people stacked Steels and not run double Darks during the height of the Psychic type reign in Gen 7. In conclusion, if you fucks with Stall, this is one if your go to subs this slate. If not, not sure what you are voting for.
In summary, these subs are all interestjng to varying degrees, and perhaps maybe outside of Shedinja or MAYBE Goodra, I do not think there are any wrong answers here. Whatever you pick is pretty much just determined on what playstyles you like to pursue in the metagame. I personally will probably vote for
x .For the Zarudes? I'll keep if brief <spoilers, I DID NOT>. Flower Veil is an ok buff, but feels a lot more underwhelming when people realise Zarude's sole niche in OU before it became TC Choice Locker, was that of a Stallbreaker uncrippled by Status. Flower Veil does take that one step further and makes it so you never get statused, but I think Zarude never truly struggled in that department due to how intelligently the Pokemon was designed. The Intimidate immunity is great though. Technician is rather interesting, as it seeks to buff Zarude's damahe output in a more consise and reserved way with Technician, making Bullet Seed a hell of a move to switch ibto, and making Bite's flinch shenanigans a comical sight to behold. Not sure what else Zarude gets that benefits the ability though, if it got Beat Up that would legit be amazing. Intimidate is pretty cool, makes specifically its Scarf and Boots set ftom lower tiers much more interesting to play against and utilize, but leaving Bulk Up sets in the dust, as Intim doesn't really help it set up versus the targets it wants. Still imo, my second favorite sub here. Moxie just makes BU Zarude a snowballer, which is perfectly fine, as it strengthens its current niche in OU, but not enough to be worthwhile imo (I'd think even with Moxie Scarf Zarude doesn't go off unless the opposimg team is HEAVILY weakened). Of course I am biased since I made this contribution, but I truly think Swords Dance is the best way to go about bolstering Zarude's success. Zarude's major problem was damage output, leaving Zarude unable to threaten most playstyles outside of fat with Bulk Up specifically because Choice sets were too easy to punish to be worth locking into, and Bulk Up did put enough immediate breaking pressure on more offensive teams. Swords Dance attempts to alleviate that issue, as a +2 Zarude is a much more immediate and threatening Pokémon for Balance and Offense alike, and not spending two turns to get to that level is a gamechanger, without pushing Zarude's immediate power through the roof into dumb levels Tough Claws did. Of course you will need to find set up opportunities, but I think one would be surprised (or not if you have been plsying OU Theorymon) at Zarude's natural bulk giving it ample mwans to exploit your defensive core without probably massacring your entire Offensive team ala Weavile. That is a great way to look at Swords Dance Zarude actually - balanced Weavile. In conclusion, I am shocked no one did the +15 Atk or even Knock Off, those would have been huge too. You know what I am voting for here, so I will just rank how good I think the Zarude buffs are - SD followed very closely by Intimidate, a sizable gap, then Moxie=Flower Veil, then Technician*, which is wildly subject to change purely based on what moves outside of Bullet Seed and Bite does Zarude have cooking.