bangs my knee on the table—
yeah its ghost/steel, sorry to everyone this is my mistake
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Pet Mod SS OU Theorymon (Completed)
- Thread starter Ardy
- Start date
yeah its ghost/steel, sorry to everyone this is my mistake
So turns out it is not grass steel but ghost steel, which makes it much less comparable to ferrothorn and much more similar to aegislash.
Honestly i'm not sure about this one. Since Dhelmise stats are worse than Aegislash's, it will have to capitalize on its access to either Rapid Spin, Steelworker, Synthesis or/and a stronger stab in Poltergeist.
I'm frankly not sold at all on what it could bring to the table with Rapid Spin, since it loses to lot of hazards setters. However, it is worth to note that Poltergeist and steelworker makes it much stronger than Aegislash on the physical side (which is kinda obvious tbh) (calcs were made vs a typeless mew)
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 133-157 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 199-235 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 153-180 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO (does it even run iron head? idk)
252+ Atk Steelworker Dhelmise Anchor Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 217-256 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Though it probably doesn't outclasses sd aegislash completely since it is much slower, has less bulk, and poltergeist might not be a very consistent stab move because of how good Knock Off is.
Also Synthesis probably allows it to check non Shadow Ball lele pretty well.
IDK, maybe i'll vote for the mon, it sounds cool but kinda hard to fit on teams (and aegislash itself isn't the greatest mon ever already lol)
Honestly i'm not sure about this one. Since Dhelmise stats are worse than Aegislash's, it will have to capitalize on its access to either Rapid Spin, Steelworker, Synthesis or/and a stronger stab in Poltergeist.
I'm frankly not sold at all on what it could bring to the table with Rapid Spin, since it loses to lot of hazards setters. However, it is worth to note that Poltergeist and steelworker makes it much stronger than Aegislash on the physical side (which is kinda obvious tbh) (calcs were made vs a typeless mew)
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 133-157 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 199-235 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 153-180 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO (does it even run iron head? idk)
252+ Atk Steelworker Dhelmise Anchor Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 217-256 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Though it probably doesn't outclasses sd aegislash completely since it is much slower, has less bulk, and poltergeist might not be a very consistent stab move because of how good Knock Off is.
Also Synthesis probably allows it to check non Shadow Ball lele pretty well.
IDK, maybe i'll vote for the mon, it sounds cool but kinda hard to fit on teams (and aegislash itself isn't the greatest mon ever already lol)
Geko has discussed it better than i ever could. MAY THE REGIELEKI ALLIANCE RISE AGAINST ALL ODDS
i find this one really interesting, as it has a good defensive typing, recovery, and a strong STAB trapping move. i can 100% see it beeing good.only really discussed the ones i'll be voting for.
and 
are neat, but i dislike 
Hi hello, people told me to talk about Switcheroo Regieleki and talk publicly about what led me to submit it and why I personally think it would be cool, and I think a good way of going about that is by addressing Gravity Monkey's post since it is probably the one that goes most in depth regarding the core reasons why Switcheroo might be bad.
For the record, Gravity Monkey, I actually agree with you. I think Regieleki is a horrendously designed Pokemon from a competitive standpoint. I believe its concept of being an immensely powerful offensive threat that is entirely shut down by a single type is something that is immensely uninteresting and lacks depth, especially considering how blatantly busted it is once all is said and done. However, I'd argue that what makes this concept so bland is the fact that its incredible, unbridled offensively potential is so uninterestingly polarized. It will either do a lot, or nothing at all, as opposed to meeting a unique middle ground that diversifies how it interacts with its counters outside of simply just "it loses to them, indiscriminately". In other words, Regieleki is a horrible competitive design because its balance is fundamentally polarized, and has no intrigue since it lacks any unique or interesting options to interact with them.
Zeraora and Tapu Koko are both, standardly, the best fast Electric-types in base SS OU, and are both incredible examples of what makes the fast Electric-type archetype so interesting and what inspired me to make this submission. Both are incredibly potent win conditions that hate dealing with Ground-types, but unlike Regieleki, have ways of interacting with them that make them manageable but not complete dead weight, and consequently diversifies how you both build and play with them. Zeraora's access to all of Toxic, Bulk Up, and Knock Off allow for it to exploit Landorus-T's poor longevity, but not outright beat it. Tapu Koko has U-turn to safely pivot against Ground-types, a secondary STAB, and Calm Mind to pressure and take advantage of them, but not in a way that doesn't outright lock its matchup against them. Tapu Koko is also really easy to check with Special walls. Switcheroo with Regieleki, in concept, was designed to be exactly that; an option against Ground-types to let its really cool revenge killing and hazard clearing applications as a super fast Electric-type shine, but not in a way that outright invalidates them. R8 put it best, as Switcheroo is essentially a "one-shot" move. You have to time it well to get your intended effect out of it, lest you waste momentum and your ability to take advantage of Ground-types. The key thing to consider, above all else, though, is that Switcheroo does not mean your Ground-type is instant dead weight against the rest of the team. Stealth Rock, a STAB Earthquake, and potentially momentum are never wastes of turns, especially if they get in on Regieleki to begin with, alongside the sheer inconsistency that comes by nature with the "one-shot" you get. On paper it might seem like that, but in action it will likely be nowhere near consistent enough to be a broken presence.
When coming up with this submission, I mostly had Choice items in mind, as they are usually run with Regieleki anyway, and while they can cripple Ground-types, make it so Knock Off is a really risky move to run alongside it and also makes it so they're still guaranteed switch-ins to Regieleki since it lacks literally any other option to take advantage of them outside of Rapid Spin. Them being Choice-locked could have cool applications on double switches, or forced U-turns if you want to take advantage of Rocky Helmet, for example. However, Switcheroo also has other applications I thought about that let Regieleki's incredible natural attributes shine, namely its Speed. You can run things like Status orbs with Substitute to wear down the Ground-type, Ring Target to wring the opponent into momentum spam, or even other options like Sticky Barb if you really want to get heat.
The idea of Switcheroo was, essentially, to diversify how you fit Regieleki onto teams and actively improve that terrible competitive design to make it practical yet readily checkable with its core weaknesses staying intact, but above all else, less linear as an offensive Pokemon. If you're feeling "Regieleki doesn't and shouldn't be able beat Ground-types!"; you're right, it shouldn't, but that isn't the point of this submission. It's meant to give it options against them that encourage creativity and clever teambuilding with the fast Electric-type archetype to create unique and practical forms of pressure against Ground-types, a la Zeraora and Tapu Koko, not sure-fire ways to beat them, especially considering it is still greatly held back by Special walls as is. Hopefully this clears things up.
Regarding the other submissions so this isn't just a Regieleki defense post:
Flygon: +Poison Heal, +20 Speed
This is honestly a really, really cool submission and one I would personally be a fan of seeing. A fast Ground-type Poison Heal user that has a naturally really awesome defensive profile, longevity, utility, and boosting is quite a bit like Gliscor on paper, but I believe this submission brings the healthy caveats of Gliscor's presence in the metagame without most of the polarizing parts of Gliscor, especially with Gliscor's much greater bulk being exchanged for a big Speed bonus to let it actually serve as a very consistent-seeming offensive check to a solid amount of dangerous Pokemon while letting it be more feasibly overwhelmed. This feels almost like a Gliscor + Tornadus-T fusion, with Gliscor's defensive profile and Tornadus-T's fast, disruptive presence that still packs natural defensive utility, but lacks the natural power to be an immediately dangerous presence. The only potential problem I see is bulky Dragon Dance, which I could see being a gigantic problem, but with things like Latias around and the amplified power level letting it be more prone to being overwhelmed, it could be a lot less terrifying in practice than it seems on paper. As a big Tornadus-T and Gliscor fan, though, this seems like a lot of fun and it could be a superb presence as an offensive pivot with copious amounts of natural defensive utility.
Salazzle: +Earth Power, +10 SpAtk
Salazzle really needs some kick, and... well, this definitely provides that. Earth Power will for sure help it to instead just break past things like Heatran and Toxapex. Though, I'm going to come out and say that I really dislike like how this tunes its offensive design, a lot, since it pretty much makes its original niche provided by Corrosion obsolete. This is pretty big for me because I think Corrosion is part of what makes Salazzle so fascinating as an offensive Pokemon, since it allows it to not only apply direct pressure against its natural checks, but does so in a way literally no other Pokemon can, and in a way that's genuinely super practical on paper considering how things like Toxapex would loathe losing that staying factor that makes them so naturally good. I personally think more bulk would be a much more interesting way to play to its great defensive typing and make Corrosion much more practical as an option to play to, but that's just me, I guess.
Dhelmise: Steel/Ghost
Steel/Ghost is an amazing typing defensively, which gives Dhelmise a lot more staying power and a much more practical niche as a Ghost-type wallbreaker and Rapid Spin user, but I'd really like to put emphasis on the fact that this still gets Steelworker and gives its Steel-type moves an effectively 2.25x boost for free. As such, this turns it into an absolutely asinine wallbreaker, especially considering it gets STAB Poltergeist to complement it to cleave most Steel-type resistances, Rapid Spin for Speed boosting, Swords Dance, and it still has Synthesis for longevity in case it wants to take a bulky setup route. Knock Off will most likely keep it in check in a vacuum and I could feasibly see it being overwhelmed considering it's still super slow, but I can't say I'm too comfortable with this considering how this change has the potential to drive Dhelmise into a dominating state where it can take consistent trades, considering just how insanely well Steel/Ghost actually augments everything in its kit.
EDIT: Oh and Resist Berries exist, so your Knock Off/Earthquake breakers will likely just die. I'm sorry, this looks way too dangerous and far too good at forcing favorable trades against a wide range of important Pokemon for my comfort.
Cresselia: Psychic/Poison
I mean.... okay, I guess? I get where this is coming from: this gives Cresselia a natural Toxic immunity, goes really well with Levitate, and makes its Calm Mind set a genuine behemoth. From a competitive standpoint I can see its merit and it appears actually rather immensely practical, but I just cannot subscribe to this because I care way too much about flavor and this just makes no sense, especially since it has no Poison-type move barring Toxic, which doesn't count for obvious reasons.
For the record, Gravity Monkey, I actually agree with you. I think Regieleki is a horrendously designed Pokemon from a competitive standpoint. I believe its concept of being an immensely powerful offensive threat that is entirely shut down by a single type is something that is immensely uninteresting and lacks depth, especially considering how blatantly busted it is once all is said and done. However, I'd argue that what makes this concept so bland is the fact that its incredible, unbridled offensively potential is so uninterestingly polarized. It will either do a lot, or nothing at all, as opposed to meeting a unique middle ground that diversifies how it interacts with its counters outside of simply just "it loses to them, indiscriminately". In other words, Regieleki is a horrible competitive design because its balance is fundamentally polarized, and has no intrigue since it lacks any unique or interesting options to interact with them.
Zeraora and Tapu Koko are both, standardly, the best fast Electric-types in base SS OU, and are both incredible examples of what makes the fast Electric-type archetype so interesting and what inspired me to make this submission. Both are incredibly potent win conditions that hate dealing with Ground-types, but unlike Regieleki, have ways of interacting with them that make them manageable but not complete dead weight, and consequently diversifies how you both build and play with them. Zeraora's access to all of Toxic, Bulk Up, and Knock Off allow for it to exploit Landorus-T's poor longevity, but not outright beat it. Tapu Koko has U-turn to safely pivot against Ground-types, a secondary STAB, and Calm Mind to pressure and take advantage of them, but not in a way that doesn't outright lock its matchup against them. Tapu Koko is also really easy to check with Special walls. Switcheroo with Regieleki, in concept, was designed to be exactly that; an option against Ground-types to let its really cool revenge killing and hazard clearing applications as a super fast Electric-type shine, but not in a way that outright invalidates them. R8 put it best, as Switcheroo is essentially a "one-shot" move. You have to time it well to get your intended effect out of it, lest you waste momentum and your ability to take advantage of Ground-types. The key thing to consider, above all else, though, is that Switcheroo does not mean your Ground-type is instant dead weight against the rest of the team. Stealth Rock, a STAB Earthquake, and potentially momentum are never wastes of turns, especially if they get in on Regieleki to begin with, alongside the sheer inconsistency that comes by nature with the "one-shot" you get. On paper it might seem like that, but in action it will likely be nowhere near consistent enough to be a broken presence.
When coming up with this submission, I mostly had Choice items in mind, as they are usually run with Regieleki anyway, and while they can cripple Ground-types, make it so Knock Off is a really risky move to run alongside it and also makes it so they're still guaranteed switch-ins to Regieleki since it lacks literally any other option to take advantage of them outside of Rapid Spin. Them being Choice-locked could have cool applications on double switches, or forced U-turns if you want to take advantage of Rocky Helmet, for example. However, Switcheroo also has other applications I thought about that let Regieleki's incredible natural attributes shine, namely its Speed. You can run things like Status orbs with Substitute to wear down the Ground-type, Ring Target to wring the opponent into momentum spam, or even other options like Sticky Barb if you really want to get heat.
The idea of Switcheroo was, essentially, to diversify how you fit Regieleki onto teams and actively improve that terrible competitive design to make it practical yet readily checkable with its core weaknesses staying intact, but above all else, less linear as an offensive Pokemon. If you're feeling "Regieleki doesn't and shouldn't be able beat Ground-types!"; you're right, it shouldn't, but that isn't the point of this submission. It's meant to give it options against them that encourage creativity and clever teambuilding with the fast Electric-type archetype to create unique and practical forms of pressure against Ground-types, a la Zeraora and Tapu Koko, not sure-fire ways to beat them, especially considering it is still greatly held back by Special walls as is. Hopefully this clears things up.
Regarding the other submissions so this isn't just a Regieleki defense post:
Flygon: +Poison Heal, +20 Speed
This is honestly a really, really cool submission and one I would personally be a fan of seeing. A fast Ground-type Poison Heal user that has a naturally really awesome defensive profile, longevity, utility, and boosting is quite a bit like Gliscor on paper, but I believe this submission brings the healthy caveats of Gliscor's presence in the metagame without most of the polarizing parts of Gliscor, especially with Gliscor's much greater bulk being exchanged for a big Speed bonus to let it actually serve as a very consistent-seeming offensive check to a solid amount of dangerous Pokemon while letting it be more feasibly overwhelmed. This feels almost like a Gliscor + Tornadus-T fusion, with Gliscor's defensive profile and Tornadus-T's fast, disruptive presence that still packs natural defensive utility, but lacks the natural power to be an immediately dangerous presence. The only potential problem I see is bulky Dragon Dance, which I could see being a gigantic problem, but with things like Latias around and the amplified power level letting it be more prone to being overwhelmed, it could be a lot less terrifying in practice than it seems on paper. As a big Tornadus-T and Gliscor fan, though, this seems like a lot of fun and it could be a superb presence as an offensive pivot with copious amounts of natural defensive utility.
Salazzle: +Earth Power, +10 SpAtk
Salazzle really needs some kick, and... well, this definitely provides that. Earth Power will for sure help it to instead just break past things like Heatran and Toxapex. Though, I'm going to come out and say that I really dislike like how this tunes its offensive design, a lot, since it pretty much makes its original niche provided by Corrosion obsolete. This is pretty big for me because I think Corrosion is part of what makes Salazzle so fascinating as an offensive Pokemon, since it allows it to not only apply direct pressure against its natural checks, but does so in a way literally no other Pokemon can, and in a way that's genuinely super practical on paper considering how things like Toxapex would loathe losing that staying factor that makes them so naturally good. I personally think more bulk would be a much more interesting way to play to its great defensive typing and make Corrosion much more practical as an option to play to, but that's just me, I guess.
Dhelmise: Steel/Ghost
Steel/Ghost is an amazing typing defensively, which gives Dhelmise a lot more staying power and a much more practical niche as a Ghost-type wallbreaker and Rapid Spin user, but I'd really like to put emphasis on the fact that this still gets Steelworker and gives its Steel-type moves an effectively 2.25x boost for free. As such, this turns it into an absolutely asinine wallbreaker, especially considering it gets STAB Poltergeist to complement it to cleave most Steel-type resistances, Rapid Spin for Speed boosting, Swords Dance, and it still has Synthesis for longevity in case it wants to take a bulky setup route. Knock Off will most likely keep it in check in a vacuum and I could feasibly see it being overwhelmed considering it's still super slow, but I can't say I'm too comfortable with this considering how this change has the potential to drive Dhelmise into a dominating state where it can take consistent trades, considering just how insanely well Steel/Ghost actually augments everything in its kit.
EDIT: Oh and Resist Berries exist, so your Knock Off/Earthquake breakers will likely just die. I'm sorry, this looks way too dangerous and far too good at forcing favorable trades against a wide range of important Pokemon for my comfort.
Cresselia: Psychic/Poison
I mean.... okay, I guess? I get where this is coming from: this gives Cresselia a natural Toxic immunity, goes really well with Levitate, and makes its Calm Mind set a genuine behemoth. From a competitive standpoint I can see its merit and it appears actually rather immensely practical, but I just cannot subscribe to this because I care way too much about flavor and this just makes no sense, especially since it has no Poison-type move barring Toxic, which doesn't count for obvious reasons.
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First off, thank you asuma for that Regi breakdown, wonderful to read. I encourage more people whos subs are being criticized to give an insight into why they think its unjustified/justified.
Secondly, as for Salazzle, its an interesting case. Corrosion in of itself is a really really good ability. Being able to toxic anything is super fun, which is why, when we were discussing it in Discord, the consensus was it should not go to anything with reliable recovery and good bulk. There was talk of Crobat, of Tenta, and even of Gengar. Of these, Tenta was decided to be the most fitting (I dont think the other two were even subbed), and despite that, there were some very good arguements against it in this threat and on discord when it was put on a slate. Some of these arguments apply to other potential Corrosion subs, and we definitely do not want to just keep throwing corrosion on different mons slate after slate until we find one thats half decent, thats not the point of this meta.
So, our other option was buffing Salazzle. Now, if you've taken even a cursory glance at it, you'll realise Salazzle is pretty much irredeemable defensively. 68/60/60 is not even passable, and even buffing it to something like 88/60/60 or 68/80/60 would not have seen it get any use imo. Toxicing a steel isnt really worth running such a shit defensive mon. Maybe higher bulk with reliable recovery would have been niche, but I honestly am really hesitant to give corrosion to sth with reliable recovery, which is why I even argued against Corrosion Crobat when it was brought up. Being able to stay around the whole match and eventually toxic everything to death would have been insanely huge on stall, and even though we havent seen a lot of stall in this meta, I think a good Corrosion user should be more "comes in once or twice a match and forces a scenario where your steel gets Toxic'd", ie, it should reward good positioning over just coming in over and over to do its thing.
Buffing its offenses, in contrast, gives Salazzle a niche outside of stall. I could see Salazzle balance being a viable playstyle if Salazzle was just a teensy bit better at literally anything. Toxicing Pex and Corv and Heatran is super cool. I can see the argument of fearing that Salazzle would drop Toxic in favor of NP / Sludge / Flame / EP, but in a meta with powerful breakers, I dont think anyone is going to be rushing to pick Salazzle unless they are utilising Corrosion in their gameplan. I also love the utility of an unblockable toxic in a meta where so much defensive utility is provided by steels + pex. Sure, you could achieve the same goal of breaking pex by running FS and breaking corv by running mag, and some teams will undoubtedly still prefer those, but it allows you to run breakers that struggle vs pex and corv with the added bonus of good offensive power outside of the trap. I dont think Salazzle is going to shoot to the top of the viability rankings or anything, but I do think that if this subs make it into the meta, it will be a good choice on certain teams built to utilise it best, and wont be mindlessly spammed on every team because it still has many of the drawbacks of everyones least favorite Corrosion mon, but with a little bit more punch behind it.
Then again, I am the kind of girl who ran Firium NP/Sludge/Fire Blast/Encore week 1 of SM, so maybe Im just seeking redemption from the gods. Either way, vote Salazzle.
Edit: also thank u all for voting Tang, now my Darkspam balance team just got a whole lot better
Secondly, as for Salazzle, its an interesting case. Corrosion in of itself is a really really good ability. Being able to toxic anything is super fun, which is why, when we were discussing it in Discord, the consensus was it should not go to anything with reliable recovery and good bulk. There was talk of Crobat, of Tenta, and even of Gengar. Of these, Tenta was decided to be the most fitting (I dont think the other two were even subbed), and despite that, there were some very good arguements against it in this threat and on discord when it was put on a slate. Some of these arguments apply to other potential Corrosion subs, and we definitely do not want to just keep throwing corrosion on different mons slate after slate until we find one thats half decent, thats not the point of this meta.
So, our other option was buffing Salazzle. Now, if you've taken even a cursory glance at it, you'll realise Salazzle is pretty much irredeemable defensively. 68/60/60 is not even passable, and even buffing it to something like 88/60/60 or 68/80/60 would not have seen it get any use imo. Toxicing a steel isnt really worth running such a shit defensive mon. Maybe higher bulk with reliable recovery would have been niche, but I honestly am really hesitant to give corrosion to sth with reliable recovery, which is why I even argued against Corrosion Crobat when it was brought up. Being able to stay around the whole match and eventually toxic everything to death would have been insanely huge on stall, and even though we havent seen a lot of stall in this meta, I think a good Corrosion user should be more "comes in once or twice a match and forces a scenario where your steel gets Toxic'd", ie, it should reward good positioning over just coming in over and over to do its thing.
Buffing its offenses, in contrast, gives Salazzle a niche outside of stall. I could see Salazzle balance being a viable playstyle if Salazzle was just a teensy bit better at literally anything. Toxicing Pex and Corv and Heatran is super cool. I can see the argument of fearing that Salazzle would drop Toxic in favor of NP / Sludge / Flame / EP, but in a meta with powerful breakers, I dont think anyone is going to be rushing to pick Salazzle unless they are utilising Corrosion in their gameplan. I also love the utility of an unblockable toxic in a meta where so much defensive utility is provided by steels + pex. Sure, you could achieve the same goal of breaking pex by running FS and breaking corv by running mag, and some teams will undoubtedly still prefer those, but it allows you to run breakers that struggle vs pex and corv with the added bonus of good offensive power outside of the trap. I dont think Salazzle is going to shoot to the top of the viability rankings or anything, but I do think that if this subs make it into the meta, it will be a good choice on certain teams built to utilise it best, and wont be mindlessly spammed on every team because it still has many of the drawbacks of everyones least favorite Corrosion mon, but with a little bit more punch behind it.
Then again, I am the kind of girl who ran Firium NP/Sludge/Fire Blast/Encore week 1 of SM, so maybe Im just seeking redemption from the gods. Either way, vote Salazzle.
Edit: also thank u all for voting Tang, now my Darkspam balance team just got a whole lot better
I'm gonna start this post by saying that Regieleki is perhaps one of the coolest and umique game designs we have had in a long time. Pokémon have had gimmicks for awhile, and have tested out the concept of hard hitting STAB users as well (Araquanid, arguably Gen 7 Tapus, Perserrker), but Regieleki takes both of these ideas and pushes them to their logical endpoint of extremes while still remaining balanced. Using an offensive Regieleki is largely a push and pull balance just like most offensive Pokémon, but like I stated before, just pushed to it's extremes - The Pokémon can be a menace once it's checks are dealt with, but it is quite literally a sitting duck until that is done. Of course, this means that a well built team has to take that into account well and carefully operate with that in mind - its nit easy piloting an offensive Regi, and some rightfully feel that the work to support it isn't worth tge results. With that in mind, I do not feel as if this modification truly helps Regi in its quest to do what it needs to succeed outside the role of a Screens Setter. I feel this just propagates the cheese gimmick aspect instead of accentuating the real power of Regieleki as THE offensive pivot, a Pokémon with absolute control of the momentum of a game. I'd much rather Regi being able to do something other than getting the freest Spin in the game whenever it switches in. Maybe Parting Shot? That would have been alot cooler.
As the guy who submitted this sub, I'd like to try and argue the reasoning behind it.
Steel / Ghost is an incredible defensive typing, being able to check the vast variety of Psychic and Fairy type wallbreakers in the tier, while still having incredible offensive presence thanks to Steelworker + STAB is pretty great. asuma broke down a lot of the major positives already, but I'd like to go over why I think this Pokémon is ok here. It would have an annoying case of 4mss - needs Earthquake to bully Toxapex, Power Whip makes its Ground tyoe matchup good, needs Spin to provide utility, dual STAB is mandatory and Synthesis really helps it to heal. Defensive counterplay is pretty consistent with most bulky Ground types, Toxapex and *most* bulky Water types and Mandibuzz, all of which are popular atm. Like I understand it being a strong wallbreaker is scary, but its slow speed and few but very exploitable weaknesses can be used to more than hold it in check.
This Flygon is very cool. With 120 Speed it can easily EV itself to creep any tank it needs to. The bulk honestly leaves alot to be desired, but the raw utility of it's typing can be proven to be highly useful.
The mon itself is great, but if thd goal is to make Salazzle a good offensive threat, it does that, but if the idea is to buff Corrosion, this buff lowkey kills that niche lol.
No real thoughts on Cressilia. Don't worry guys, I'll implement the correct Cress buff soon
um.. the voting for these mons are already over, sorry-
Don't worry
I deleted it
I deleted it
These are some weird subs, all of which have odd flavor...I'm gonna have to go with
and
Ok, I do think Tangrowth and Mamoswine are based...but I'm still gonna send my Archeops army to punish you for making him lose.
Ok, I do think Tangrowth and Mamoswine are based...but I'm still gonna send my Archeops army to punish you for making him lose.
+ poison heal + 20 speed: A very interesting idea, 120 Speed Tier is deadly, matching Alakazam, but still losing to Weavile. My biggest problem here is that it seems like you're trying to create Gliscor in its absence. It doesn't feel fresh or spicy to me. idk about this one. + steel type (replaces grass): This is literally just Aegislash without form changing shenanigans. The whole point of Steelworker on Dhelmise is that it gets 3 STAB moves. By making it steel type, you remove STAB from a powerful Power Whip, which it could previously use to 2HKO Pex with a choice band, but without STAB it can no longer do that. HIGHLY dislike this one. + poison type: Pretty goofy idea giving Cress the poison typing, but not ever missing Toxic sounds funny. My problem is that Cresselia will have no poison type moves, at least give it sludge bomb or sludge wave to work with. Maybe even Gastro Acid for some ability removing shenanigans, but this sub feels incomplete, but it has potential. If it gets some poison moves and gets re-slated, I'm sure I'll pick it, but in its current state it's not good enough. + earth power + 10 special attack: Basic, but good. Gives Salazzle a niche as a HO sweeper. Can now deal with Heatran and doesn't have to rely on Corrosion toxic stall tactics to be viable. This is easily my favorite of the bunch. + switcheroo: Such a basic change, but a welcome one. Tricking ring targets on swaps to Lando allows for Regieleki to not have to rely on teammates on every team it's on and can instead be used as its own individual threat. TBH it feels like a lot of submissions are trying too hard to be good, so Salazzle and Regieleki feel like a breath of fresh air with basic but good changes that aren't terribly complex or odd. I'll probably be going with
and
Three STABs? Golly gee, this surely MUST be an effective Pokémon in OU then! Just slap a choice band to 2hko pex? Damn, what a revelation. Why has literally no one considered doing this before?
On a more serious note, I do not know what the point of this critique is. All you did is point out that it has a type change, then complain about why you liked what it had prior, without actually explaining why it is a bad idea. Keep in mind, everything you mentioned are just features of standard Dhelmise, which has no viability in OU whatsoever. Calling it Aegislash without Stance Change is rather reductive and is plainly untrue on multiple levels, but even if that IS the case, its still a straight upgrade from its unviable base form. Dhelmise doesn't run "Three STABs" in standard, it runs recovery its base STABs and Rapid Spin.
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If i wanted to i wouldve given it stealth rocks or SD instead. It is a heatran counter, a knock absorber the meta wants, and something fresh as nothing in the meta can replicate its role. I could say the same thing about past things such as "mudsdale just trying to recreate hippo" or "terrakion as a mega diancie" I mean... they do compeltely different things and are barely identical and the only thing they are similar in is PH, and ground....ok... what else?
If u did that that would make it very similar to Garchomp, and a worse Garchomp with a ground immunity and recovery and Defog.
Garchomp has offensive power, bulk, and strong setup. FLygon has status immunity, ability to absorb knock for a team, and has longevity and speed. There are both completely different pokemon as garchomp cannot replicate what flygon does and flygon cannot replicate what garchomp does because they would do completely different things
What you said that if you wanted to buff it u would make it have sd or stealth rocks instead. Meaning you can’t have the other buffs as well.
When did i say that.... i made flygon have ways to differentiate itself from garchomp and it certainly does. I never wanted to give it SD as it had DD and rocks when other teammates can fill the role
"If i wanted to i wouldve given it stealth rocks or SD instead."
:eyes: cord at school is being blocked by some dark magic here. But sure....
+ switcheroo: This pokemon is the one i was interested in most.... I feel like raikou may compete with it but I hope ausma knows that... Tricking specs on any ground is litterally detrimental. Garchomp, lando-t, and hippo hate having their lefties being removed for a detrimental choice specs that regeielki does not mind as they can not be used for setup for pokemon such as kart, raikou, and weavile if they lock into a bad move. Having no recovery allows them to be worn down faster and for regieleki to go to town on them
+ switcheroo: This pokemon is the one i was interested in most.... I feel like raikou may compete with it but I hope ausma knows that... Tricking specs on any ground is litterally detrimental. Garchomp, lando-t, and hippo hate having their lefties being removed for a detrimental choice specs that regeielki does not mind as they can not be used for setup for pokemon such as kart, raikou, and weavile if they lock into a bad move. Having no recovery allows them to be worn down faster and for regieleki to go to town on them
Tharts, from best mon to worst mon again.
This makes Salazzle less dedicated to Corrosion, but honestly, that’s fine. It’s now a strong Plotter that can still run unblockable Toxic if it wants to, and in a relatively weak slate, that’s enough to put it on top for me. Also, while this does give it better options than Toxic/Sub/Protect, you can still run that kind of set, and be more likely to catch people off guard with it.
Besides the part where it hurts the mon’s flavour, this is a cool buff. Definitely distinct enough from Aegislash to stand out, and Steelworker + STAB stacking up lets it hit super hard, with its speed tier preventing it from being too much.
This mon would definitely be strong because PHeal‘s busted, but Flygon just doesn’t feel like the right mon for PHeal to me. It’s trying to be Gliscor, but worse bulk, a worse typing, and no SR or KOff really hurt. In exchange it gets 120 Speed, which makes SubToxic sound about 20 times more annoying than it is on Gliscor.
Yeah idk what to think about this one. It’s a better typing than pure Psychic for a Levitate mon but Cress’s only niche is due to it already having obscene bulk, buffing it defensively isn’t going to change the fact that it’s TR only unless you do something wild like give it recovery.
Regieleki is one of the most boring mons in the history of singles, and while this makes it more interesting to use and build around, it will be infinitely more obnoxious to play against. Instead of its counterplay being “well I guess I need to go into my Ground again”, it now becomes “well I guess I need to go into my Ground again except if it happens to be the one turn they click Switcheroo I’m fucked but if they don’t they do 80% to my switchin with Volt and get free momentum”. It kind of reminds me of Spectrier’s many tech options to cripple or break past common Normals and Darks before its ban, though at least Switcheroo can only come out once in most cases.
This makes Salazzle less dedicated to Corrosion, but honestly, that’s fine. It’s now a strong Plotter that can still run unblockable Toxic if it wants to, and in a relatively weak slate, that’s enough to put it on top for me. Also, while this does give it better options than Toxic/Sub/Protect, you can still run that kind of set, and be more likely to catch people off guard with it.
Besides the part where it hurts the mon’s flavour, this is a cool buff. Definitely distinct enough from Aegislash to stand out, and Steelworker + STAB stacking up lets it hit super hard, with its speed tier preventing it from being too much.
This mon would definitely be strong because PHeal‘s busted, but Flygon just doesn’t feel like the right mon for PHeal to me. It’s trying to be Gliscor, but worse bulk, a worse typing, and no SR or KOff really hurt. In exchange it gets 120 Speed, which makes SubToxic sound about 20 times more annoying than it is on Gliscor.
Yeah idk what to think about this one. It’s a better typing than pure Psychic for a Levitate mon but Cress’s only niche is due to it already having obscene bulk, buffing it defensively isn’t going to change the fact that it’s TR only unless you do something wild like give it recovery.
Regieleki is one of the most boring mons in the history of singles, and while this makes it more interesting to use and build around, it will be infinitely more obnoxious to play against. Instead of its counterplay being “well I guess I need to go into my Ground again”, it now becomes “well I guess I need to go into my Ground again except if it happens to be the one turn they click Switcheroo I’m fucked but if they don’t they do 80% to my switchin with Volt and get free momentum”. It kind of reminds me of Spectrier’s many tech options to cripple or break past common Normals and Darks before its ban, though at least Switcheroo can only come out once in most cases.
also thank you ausma for explaining regieleki's purpose! i respect the idea but yeah switcheroo doesnt fix it enough for me