Resource SS PU Viability Rankings

termi

bike is short for bichael
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Hi! A nom for my recent obsession:

> B

Flapple @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 80 SpA / 176 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Grav Apple
- Draco Meteor
- Sucker Punch
- Outrage / U-turn

This is a really potent breaker that actually carries significant utility vs offense. You get in on something like Sandaconda, Lanturn, Jelli clicking something that isn't wisp etc. and click Grav Apple. Then do as follows!

If they switch in a faster grass resist:
The defense drop means that every faster grass resist drops to a follow up Sucker Punch that isn't fast Tsareena (getting rarer and rarer nowadays) - Zard, Toge, Bee, Whims, Scyther, Articuno, Centiskorch will all drop to this combination. This is the point where you have to predict, but you've already made some progress at the very least because LO Grav is doing like 75% to a Ribombee or 50% to a Tsareena.

If they switch in a slower grass resist:
Levitate Weezing is guaranteed to drop to a Grav Apple and Draco Meteor combination. Neutralizing Gas Weezing needs either rocks or sand chip for it to be guaranteed. Tangela will drop to the same combination. Drud of course dies to Draco Meteor. Sap Sipper
Ferroseed is trickier - Outrage will 2hko even max phys def sets after a Grav Apple drop, but the recoil + gyro ball damage will leave you almost dead, so use with caution. U-turn is handy here as grav into u-turn does like 50% minimum. Sap Sipper Miltank is 2hko'd by outrage but again, Outrage is a pretty suicidal move so use with caution.

If they switch in a non-resist
Any offensive mon will be dead or in range of Sucker Punch. Anything slower will be 2hko'd - even max phys def Aggron can drop to two Grav Apples. If you see a pesky phys def Avalugg it's gonna die to a Draco.

I feel like this set works to Flapple's strengths better than most other sets. Missing once or twice is less significant on a set like this that comes in a few times a match to punch holes than on sweeping DD sets. The immediate power of adamant and Life Orb means it scares mons like Gigalith and Sandaconda out more effectively with the threat of being 1hko'd. Outrage is an absolutely absurd nuke and threatens neutral fatmons like Scrafty, Audino and Articuno with outright 1hkos. Sucker Punch has utility even without Grav drops, having a 50% chance to drop Silv Ghost from full, chunking scarf Toge for like 70, doing the same to Archeops and bringing it into defeatist range and outright killing Articuno-Galar. And Draco Meteor gives you something to click to worry less about missing!


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1448917067 - Once Ferro goes Flapple has complete free reign on a team of fat
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1441670691 - Even with a bunch of really unfortunate misses Flapple tears up a team.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1457396676-vv0h5ivghfov7gdvnjm1dijewxevhnspw - Nothing super out there but nabs a kill on a Zard and Sandaconda.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1454409861-30ifz4daz1eylrxcz5b2si3wo79gdcopw - Breaks through a core of Stunfisk-G and Weezing
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1457497780 - Breaks a Weezing and cleans up
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1453476321-n5xgnusz1i8d5l66kg106p1awhuowpxpw - Kills 4/6 mons vs a standard balance squad


In short, super strong breaker with good utility vs offense and meta changes have been favourable to it - no pass to absorb sucker punches, no silv steel to eat up hits and no Drampa means less dragon nuke competition. It's held back by missing, a lack of longevity with Life Orb use and general vulnerability to passive damage, but still a very solid choice imo that deserves to move up.
First off, I like the Flapple set you posted, I agree that in most instances DD is kind of a waste and using Draco to hit certain physical walls more reliably definitely seems more appealing. That being said, I don't agree with this nomination. Flapple is absolutely a devastating breaker on paper and also can bring this into practice, but my issues with Flapple arise with how consistently it can do this. The fact of the matter is, as you already suggest yourself, that there is a fairly limited pool of Pokemon Flapple can actually hope to switch in on, in fact the only popular things that it can switch into fairly reliably are bulky Ground types like Sandaconda and Quagsire. This leaves it not only with few opportunities to come in and break without appropriate team support, but also with strikingly little to support the team with in return. After all, Flapple doesn't have a lot of bulk or reliable recovery and is easily worn down even by the things it checks.

Moreover, it being a Grass type makes it harder to fit another Grass type like Tsareena on the same team without stacking weaknesses or conceding other holes in your team's defensive structure. Given that Tsareena is basically the best Pokemon in the meta, providing massive utility between Rapid Spin, Knock Off, general breaking power, and good defensive utility with Synthesis, this is quite a sacrifice to be making on a serious team. I think some of the teams in your replays do display some of these issues I'm hinting at, for example deploying subpar hazard control options or lacking resistances to certain relevant offensive types because it's already hard to cover everything in this meta as it stands. While this opportunity cost is not a dealbreaker by definition, a breaker that offers little specific defensive utility over direct competition for a teamslot needs to bring something special to the table that makes it worth justifying over another Pokemon. In particular, what I would demand of such a breaker is a high level of consistency, meaning it can consistently pull its weight in matches as long as you provide opportunities for it to come in. For example, in PU we could think of a breaker like Specs Guno, which you can't just slap on any team but which is very dangerous when properly supported thanks to a high speed tier for such a strong breaker and spammable STAB moves because of the relative lack of good Steels and Darks in the tier.

The point I want to make here is that Flapple does not quite pull its weight enough to justify running on most serious teams. There is significant opportunity cost in running it, moreso than most dangerous breakers I have in mind (i.e. Guno, Gallade, Centiskorch), but I do not get the sensation that it offers enough in return. Sure, its power is incredible, but its moves are only so easy to spam. Grav Apple is a fantastic move, but it's also a Grass types move, meaning it is rather commonly resisted. Outrage, meanwhile, is never really fun to lock yourself into, whereas Sucker Punch relies heavily on mindgames to do any work. What you outline is true: when you make the right calls, Flapple is devastating, potentially even against a seemingly solid counter like Ferroseed. However, in most matchups, you do have to make those calls, and while you do a good job of clicking the right moves in the replays you provided, most of your opponents here are also admittedly not very good and don't try to play around Flapple very well. Against more experienced players, I doubt that Flapple could attain the same level of consistency.

Finally, I should address the elephant in the room, which is the accuracy issue. Hustle Pokemon in general are caught in this zone for me where they basically have to be borderline broken, or else I don't think they're really worth running. When a mon like Flapple is already reliant on prediction, it is especially painful to have a built in 20% chance to do absolutely nothing to your opponent even when you do make the right prediction. While this can be corrected for in matchups vs slower teams where you have two opportunities to hit the switchin, any team which has faster stuff like Charizard or Ribombee (very common mons) as their potential Flapple check, missing a move means you just lost all momentum. Given the limited switchins Flapple typically gets against an experienced player, this is a huge setback that is often not worth the risk. It is no wonder, with this in mind, that Flapple got 0 usage in SCL to my recollection. In the ladder games you provided, your opponents facilitate your ability to make Flapple shine either because of inherent flaws in their building (i.e. there is no Fairy type) or because they don't play around it very well. Unless I start seeing it achieve similar successes in tour games between experiences players, however, I'm very skeptical that Flapple is worthy of a rise and may in fact deserve a move down the ranks before anything else.
 

2xTheTap

YuGiOh main
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Hi all, time for another update. I've linked the sheet here this time (in the interest of transparency and because a few people in Discord mentioned they'd like to see it), and so we may end up doing this going forward if people appreciate seeing each individual council member's votes. As usual, council noms are marked with a * below.

Rises
:Quagsire: A- to A
:Jellicent: A- to A
:Regirock: A- to A
:Centiskorch: B to A-
:Gallade: B to A-
:Scyther: B to A-
*:Uxie: B- to B+
:Aurorus: C to B
:Frosmoth: B- to B
:Perrserker: C to B
:Sawk: C to B
*:Silvally:(Ground) B- to B
*:Vanilluxe: C to B
:Clefairy: C to B-
:Jolteon: C to B-
:Hattrem: UR to C
*:Rapidash-Galar: UR to C

Drops
:Charizard: S to A+
:Gigalith: S to A+
:Archeops: A+ to A
:Weezing: A+ to A
:Silvally:(Fairy) A to A-
:Whimsicott: A to B+
:Cofagrigus: B+ to B
:Druddigon: B+ to B
*:Hitmontop: B+ to B
:Lanturn: A- to B
:Miltank: B+ to B
:Palossand: B+ to B
*:Qwilfish: B+ to B
:Rotom: B+ to B
:Tangela: B+ to B
*:Vikavolt: B+ to B
:Gourgeist:(-XL) B to B-
*:Lycanroc: B to B-
:Magmortar: B to B-
:Magneton: B to B-
:Claydol: B to C
:Golbat: B to C
:Malamar: C to UR
:Silvally:(Dark) C to UR
:Turtonator: C to UR

In lieu of doing a full write-up myself this time, I'll simply show you a log of our council chat that took place during the voting stage instead to spice things up a bit - it's sort of neat to read each council member's unique perspective on current meta trends, what we all enjoy using, and what's been effective for us (or the players we're supporting) in SCL/PUWC metas. Not only that, but there's just a lot of content in here that hasn't really been posted anywhere else on the forums, so I hope you enjoy this temporary deviation from our regular posting format (this was way over post limit, so I cut it down to fit).
termi12/07/2021
has anyone seen clef ever since drampa got b&
in theory it checks zard without needing cleric support so it has that going for itself

speaking of zard it feels kinda busted again lol
audino and clef being worse again rly reduces the pool of mons u can use to check zard
it's getting rly annoying when u have to add a fuckin rock type on every team

PK Thunder12/07/2021
if everything is a tsareena, spdef togede, ferro, ribombee, etc. yes charizard can force progress somewhat easily
puwc usage stats show very high bee+tsar usage specifically

termi12/07/2021
yeah those are both rly great, hard not to build with them

chlo12/07/2021
i still like clef a fair bit but its definitely not as prevalent a pick on my teams as it was before
being able to check zard so well is still so nice

chlo12/07/2021
i brought it last week but idt it came out
or did much

termi12/07/2021
clef's just held back by being kind of shit as a fairy
cuz it doesnt check scrafty well

PK Thunder12/07/2021
not being usable as a knock absorb yeah

termi12/07/2021
or rather, it can check scrafty with moonblast but u rly dont wanna lose ur evio

PK Thunder12/07/2021
if you use clef, you have to maintain scrafty counterplay in another slot

termi12/07/2021

coil conda/

quag also works ig

PK Thunder12/07/2021
i saw someone using coil + drill run conda as a way to break through bu scrafty on ladder

daddy12/07/2021
I think coil conda + clef was the best yeah
In terms of defensive cores

chlo12/07/2021
oh drill run is clever

PK Thunder12/07/2021
interesting to think about conda as a knock sponge that would preserve clef's evio, up until you think about tsareena, then you end up looking for another mon there to sponge it

termi12/07/2021
is the high crit ratio actually significant enough

stresh12/07/2021
i think the biggest issue with clef is that it kinda goes on teams as a status absorber that compresses rocks
but teams with heal bell and to a lesser extent wish are super broken rn

Spex12/07/2021
I think imma go with B for clef its definitely better than the rest of B-. but that could also just be B- mons being a bit weak atm

daddy12/07/2021
I think in scl meta clef was like A bit now it's hard af
B seems fair

stresh12/07/2021
i find it hard to justify clef over aroma rn, it always feels like you end up fitting another rocker anyway and then you just have a better team with like aroma + regirock

daddy12/07/2021
Although I expect that it will go down next vr

PK Thunder12/07/2021
yeah i agree with that stresh

stresh12/07/2021
aroma can even run more def invest now which makes it one of the few defensive mons not immediately crumbling to gallade

termi12/07/2021
im super not into aroma typically but yea i get what u mean

daddy12/07/2021
My problem with aroma is reliance on wish

termi12/07/2021
it does help a lot with gallade

termi12/07/2021
but yea it's also hella passive
ferro teams exploit aroma rly easily

daddy12/07/2021
Clef is like ultimate role compression
Spdef wall and rocks and fairy
"fairy"
Problem is the major special breakers rn all beat clef
Like guno and vanniluxe

PK Thunder12/07/2021
specs jelli also washes it

Spex12/07/2021
im ok with being a fake fairy with how good the type is in all honesty. but it does have trouble beating what its coming in on

PK Thunder12/07/2021
is the gorse/gony/gapidash nom just for terrain HO?

termi12/07/2021
in general tho this seems to be a bit of a problem in the meta rn where ur walls just kinda get owned by the breakers u would want them to check
and yeah more or less
it's also a thing that doesnt lose to gallade

PK Thunder12/07/2021
how much does muscle band sneak / sd sneak do

daddy12/07/2021
Gorse to me has always just been healing wish + gallade check on ho
+ fairy
Feel like set up sets suck
But healing wish is epic

termi12/07/2021
it's not amazing but id say it has a distinguishable niche

Spex12/07/2021
the coverage fucks with cores that dont pack jelli/giga
i agree yh

PK Thunder12/07/2021
i think i would only rank it for g seed/e seed sets

chlo12/07/2021
real ones run scarf high horsepower to lure in scarf toge

daddy12/07/2021
Lol

chlo12/07/2021
id be fine with c for gorse


PK Thunder12/07/2021
there are some other things in C that I'd use gorse before, so sure

termi12/07/2021
like if gorse just was a bit better offensively it'd be decent glue rn
same with shit like skunk, cool typing but barely anything it can actually claim as its niche


PK Thunder12/07/2021
yeah skunk's niche is non existent
i really really tried to get it to do anything

termi12/07/2021
hey stresh used it on stall didnt he

daddy12/07/2021
Helped stall beat nasty plot meaprit when that was a thing
That's all
I think

termi12/07/2021
agree w/ uxie nom chloe just put there also
stored power shit lowkey kinda broken

PK Thunder12/07/2021
it's bulky enough to use those sets well

Spex12/07/2021
I was just thinking that I would use skunk over some C's, then I looked at the C ranks and realized I wouldnt
it is very bad, but im glad there was a successful team with it

PK Thunder12/07/2021
encore/phazing/taunt/mystical fire/dark types find their way onto balance because of stored power users like uxie being threatening
it saw plenty of tour usage and it isn't just something theoretically threatening

daddy12/07/2021
Yeah
I was super paranoid of it all scl

termi12/07/2021
same
cuz u cant play around it usually
u either have something for it or u dont
and it's really easy not to have sth for it

PK Thunder12/07/2021
psychup taunt spdef jelli

daddy12/07/2021
Yeah it's one of those things where it either wins or doesn't

termi12/07/2021
ferro leech can help if u have sth else that can smack it around a bit but even that can be insufficient sometimes cuz it's just that bulky

Spex12/07/2021
I'm wanting scyther to move up, its win rates are actually very good

PK Thunder12/07/2021
tlenit sort of put it on the map

daddy12/07/2021
Scyther + breaker is great
My one Scyther jelli team was super hard to deal with
And overall I think it's gotten better
Scyther that is

PK Thunder12/07/2021
uturn into a specs jelli yeah is super threatening

stresh12/07/2021
tbh i'm a little more critical of scyther + breaker
scyther kinda breaks on its own, u don't need to make it a u-turn bot
i brought scyther + cleric + solid removal
a few times in scl
and then again in w1 puwc
kinda slices everything

Spex12/07/2021
I think with the 4mss it has it can struggle on its own, but its possible depending on mu

PK Thunder12/07/2021
it just so happens that all of its natural resists

daddy12/07/2021
Well what's great about it is that it can break on its own and bring in other breakers safely

PK Thunder12/07/2021
are forced out by specs jelli

stresh12/07/2021
always turn knock dwb
yeah but using stuff like specs jelli just opens you up defensively for little gain imo

termi12/07/2021
specs jelli i think has had its peak

termi12/07/2021
when weezing was everywhere and bulky tsar wasnt common

daddy12/07/2021
I wouldn't use it anymore really

stresh12/07/2021
oh ya groundvally's also v good, i'd say B/B+ but no one's using it

PK Thunder12/07/2021
yes!
i posted about it a bit earlier here
and still think it's pretty cool

stresh12/07/2021
the appeal of something like scyther groundvally compared to scyther jelli is that you can just use that as a constantly pivoting offensive core

termi12/07/2021
groundvally is hella leaving next month but yea it's nb

stresh12/07/2021
and the speed tiers mean that you don't really ever give slower breakers like gallade opportunities

PK Thunder12/07/2021
the number of mons you check between +1 +2 MA, slide, FC is also pretty high

chlo12/07/2021

people always talk about how cool it is to kill toge but i never see it do anything

termi12/07/2021
the problem w/ usage based tiering in general, or rather 1 of several problems, is that it's much easier for sth to move up than for sth to move back down


also yea chloe ur prob right i never know how to build with vika
and it's slow as balls
it's cool on paper but like, eh

Spex12/07/2021
less giga and more conda aggron is good for it, but i dont like it. you have to build into it and we have better breakers that have that con

PK Thunder12/07/2021
vika is sort of interesting if you conceptualize it as a tsareena resist with roost and def/hp

Spex12/07/2021
i dont have much experience with vika to be fair to it

PK Thunder12/07/2021
when togede usage is up, mud shot is an easy kill
i don't think it's mainstream at all though
and could go down a subrank easily

termi12/07/2021
me either but i did try to build with it and every time i scrap it

daddy12/07/2021
Tbh most toge are barbs rn so you can volt all over it

PK Thunder12/07/2021
i don't use barbs too much, especially if togede doesnt accompany another ground/volt immune

@termi

me either but i did try to build with it and every time i scrap it
stresh12/07/2021

lol same

Spex12/07/2021
can we unrank claydol

stresh12/07/2021
mud shot seems so cool but then i just eh
just chuck claydol in C for now imo

Spex12/07/2021
i could just be very down on it for no reason but it is so bad

termi12/07/2021
it is definitely bad

chlo12/07/2021
YES UNRANK CLAYDOL PLEASE

termi12/07/2021
ive been clamoring for c rank claydol for several vr sheets now i think lol

PK Thunder12/07/2021
i'm indifferent to it, i don't use it too much atm but surely it's more usable than some of the stuff in C, it's B now

termi12/07/2021
i think like on paper it has a niche but it also just, sucks

chlo12/07/2021
i cannot make it work on any team ever
i think tj likes it

PK Thunder12/07/2021
his team's mascot
is maybe the only reason lol

chlo12/07/2021
lol

Spex12/07/2021
I guess it is better than pyuku malamar kadabra

chlo12/07/2021
malamar should def be ur

termi12/07/2021
well we r unranking mala
kadabra can go too idc

PK Thunder12/07/2021
malamar is an easy ur

Spex12/07/2021
idk that game with claydol vs mes was so sad

termi12/07/2021
havent seen it in ages

Spex12/07/2021
poor malamar
but yes i agree

PK Thunder12/07/2021
it's a ladder mon

chlo12/07/2021
i think kadabra is kinda cool ive used it recently

termi12/07/2021
is pyuku ever worth using over quag atm

chlo12/07/2021
but i havent seen like any tour usage whatsoever

stresh12/07/2021
i've considered it on stall

PK Thunder12/07/2021
spite stuff
but otherwise no

stresh12/07/2021
but the movepool just makes it really annoying to consider using

Spex12/07/2021
i was the one to throw it on the sheet awhile back for its stall niche of spite

stresh12/07/2021

stall struggles to fit long-term specs jelli switchins without resorting to like cuno builds which have other weaknesses
so i had the idea of either pyuku abili and just making that the jelli switchin
but even then it's not so simple

PK Thunder12/07/2021
the stall switch-in for specs jelli is cuno
if you're looking at stalls like somalia's

termi12/07/2021
u could run like
eldegoat

PK Thunder12/07/2021
no more spdef drampa to block ghost+water stabs

termi12/07/2021
sdef drampa did always make my eyes hurt tho so i dont mind that

Spex12/07/2021
do we want to unrank ditto

termi12/07/2021
yea idt ditto is useful rn

termi12/07/2021
our setup sweepers dont rly care about it

chlo12/07/2021
has there been any ditto usage in puwc?

termi12/07/2021
and HO is generally not good
so ditto is not rly a thing i ever consider

Spex12/07/2021
is this a recent thing? or is it overdue, it hasnt ever seen usage

termi12/07/2021
i used it in the uhh
garbo guzz meta i think
or maybe right after garbo left

PK Thunder12/07/2021
idk if i'd ever unrank, its niche is pretty unique, but its usage is very low
we had this same convo with galbia a long time ago
it was the same in past gens
PK Thunder12/07/2021
Image
kind of funny to see the ditto convo a third time

termi12/07/2021
i think tiers above ours have it unranked and idt it's necessarily better here than elsewhere
ou may have it ranked cuz HO is actually good there but yea

Spex12/07/2021
I think NU does for sure, feel like RU is offensive enough to have it ranked?
I get the logic with unraking it for sure

chlo12/07/2021
nu doesn't

Spex12/07/2021
just feels like we've always just kept it there cuz it does do something so specific
sorry NU doesnt*

termi12/07/2021
ru has it ranked true
but yea they have more things ditto can help against i think
ditto might be a weird case where it gets better as u go up in the tiers lol

Spex12/07/2021
yeah and it'll only ever rise if its on every team
(dynamax meta OU)
i think im gonna vote to keep it C and see how it goes for everyone else, am very fine with it being UR if ppl want

termi12/07/2021
has anyone used tangela lately

chlo12/07/2021
i have
a fair bit

termi12/07/2021
it hypothetically is better in post-drampa meta
but idk how to rly make it work rn

chlo12/07/2021
blanket physical switchin / tsar check

Spex12/07/2021
yeah I used tang a good bit
it felt weird not throwing clef beside it.
good mon and yeah u dont have to worry about just giving drampa free in anymore
(if you've slept something already)

chlo12/07/2021
i dont use sleep powder ngl
i alternate between like leech synth stun spore

termi12/07/2021
greed powder is never fun to click
i think id run grass stab/sludge/knock/synth
maybe tox > sludge actually

chlo12/07/2021
i run giga sludge knock on every single one
i was talkin last slot

Spex12/07/2021
sludge is good cuz its a scald even if it doesnt get value from hitting something SE
id say those r the 3 i run every time too
leaf storm is also good last slot

termi12/07/2021
has anyone ran hitmontop at all lately cuz i think it's seen 0 tour usage despite its coverage being threatening on paper

chlo12/07/2021
i haven't

Spex12/07/2021
not personally no

termi12/07/2021
it's kinda ass as hazard control and it's like damn i could be running tsareena

Spex12/07/2021
it was talked about in our scl server a bit on whether we want to run it

termi12/07/2021
it never rly fits somehow

Spex12/07/2021
drampa meta so grain of salt, but we didnt end up wanting it

termi12/07/2021
i'll nom that down, b+ seems much

chlo12/07/2021
for sure

Spex12/07/2021
B is perfect for it

termi12/07/2021
also am somewhat skeptical of b+ qwil even tho it looks better on paper post-drampa

PK Thunder12/07/2021
i ran pads with rs / ta / bp / cc recently but don't feel too strongly about top atm
bpunch for bee/whimsi/cheops, pads axel for drud/weezing

Spex12/07/2021
probably its best set yea

PK Thunder12/07/2021
not entirely sure if it's its best but i kind of messed around with it on a build recently

termi12/07/2021
good defensive typing but in this meta it doesnt check much

Spex12/07/2021
hasnt it seen more usage recently? @ qwil
that might've been sm, if so mb
feel like ive seen it more though

termi12/07/2021
i think i saw it once or twice on puwc

Spex12/07/2021
7 in swsh according to usage stats
42 win rate

termi12/07/2021
oh thats way more than i thought
was it more in 1 week than another
i'll have to check those builds

Spex12/07/2021
actually split
3 week 1
4 week 2
i cannot tell you off memory who ran it
but it seems on the rise, compared to scl meta

termi12/07/2021
oh right lambo ran it vs zs

termi12/07/2021
that team was weird tho
didnt rly have a breaker
and it had miltank and eldegoss

stresh12/07/2021
termi
also am somewhat skeptical of b+ qwil even tho it looks better on paper post-drampa
i feel like there's a lot that qwil should do but i'm convinced the mon is cursed
B+ is too high when it's not really that proven imo

Spex12/07/2021
I think it makes an impact in the turns its allowed to be in, it just doesnt long term answer tsar or any mon really

termi12/07/2021
oh right the french use qwil a lot
yea thats sorta my issue with it i think
it gets a spike up and checks a thing once or twice and dies
which was fine in previous gens but
in this gen i feel longevity is key
and qwil doesnt rly have that

@termi

it gets a spike up and checks a thing once or twice and dies
PK Thunder12/07/2021
dbond is nice when things feel this way

termi12/07/2021
it also is awkward when the main fighting type plops it and intimidate can make guno completely unwallable
it has a niche for sure but yea it's weird

PK Thunder12/07/2021
don't use intim on it, that's exactly the issue, guno
psn pt


@termi

it also is awkward when the main fighting type plops it and intimidate can make guno completely unwallable
Spex12/07/2021
thats a good point
i always think back to our ssnl series
the threat of the guno double makes it so tough

termi12/07/2021
oh right stresh also used qwil last week
that team seems to have the same problem as lambo's qwil team from that week
where the team just relies too heavily on making progress w/ spikes
and doesnt rly have sth offensive to force progress
i did use qwil in scl for the sake of changing things up as well


Spex12/07/2021
decent mon

termi12/07/2021
that was the week i ran into stresh stall tho
and had almost no way of winning

stresh12/07/2021
i actually liked qwil during scl but it betrayed me
and i ran into alolaslash
thx specs

Spex12/07/2021
oh the duosion game
yea

PK Thunder12/07/2021
it's a bit faster than max speed tsareena + has pjab and spikes and then RH + psn pt, it depends what's removing vs it, but it seems to be awkward enough that bumping it down seems warranted

Spex12/07/2021
im ok with bumping it down
it just seems like its doing decent rn
can bump it back up if need be later i guess

termi12/07/2021
i added it to the sheet in any case

termi12/07/2021
+ top

Spex12/07/2021
also i added a wrath nom up, think the mon has a lot of perks

termi12/07/2021
wrath's fine where it's at for me but i get it

Spex12/07/2021
jelli trending upwards is sooooo good for it

PK Thunder12/07/2021
easy toxic

Spex12/07/2021
it has actual set variety now
if ppl disagree tho i get it, it fits on specific builds it seems

PK Thunder12/07/2021
a water type that isn't walled by ferro is interesting too
it just doesn't have any tour usage

termi12/07/2021
i used it once in scl and it worked there but that team also was very specific to where i kinda needed what wrath provided

PK Thunder12/07/2021
puwc shows 0
i do like a certain set with it
any toxic poliwrath is a good set it is good against alola slash too, esp hail via vacuum wave and it gives you a water immune so specs jelli cant spam at you as easily checks aggron+conda well, does 70 to tangela with focus blast (edited)

Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 160 HP / 252 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Focus Blast
- Scald

termi12/07/2021
sub for who

PK Thunder12/07/2021
you don't want to be toxic'd by jelli
do it when poli forces a switch
prevents ferro from doing anything to you
toxic on the following turn

termi12/07/2021
oh i figured u just tox the jelli urself then get out
fair tho
id personally run tect i think but sub has its benefits

Spex12/07/2021
Sub helps tox audino too

termi12/07/2021
oh yeah how do ppl feel about lycanroc cuz i havent seen that mon in ages
i notice my teams are occasionally rly weak to it but it's also kinda impossible to fit i feel

Spex12/07/2021
It should win games and it doesnt

termi12/07/2021
yea exactly lol

PK Thunder12/07/2021
neutral on it for the same reason, should have a very good matchup, but conda and quag are very common

Spex12/07/2021
Sort of the problem gallade had earlier in the gen, though idt its gonna skyrocket the same way

PK Thunder12/07/2021
accelerock is good insurance for ribombee

termi12/07/2021
it has some things going for it in theory like se prio for bee


termi12/07/2021
but it's also a rock that dies very quickly to zard
and thats the only defensive utility it has
so that makes it just weird to build with and then u add the inconsistency thing
and it's like eh idk

PK Thunder12/07/2021
it's an offensive mon in nature and so can't really switch into the things you'd expect a rock type to otherwise, need to bring it in safely with slow momentum or via a double playing it offensively to get the most out of it

termi12/07/2021
oh btw do we need to keep carbink ranked or did its niche die out with drampa

PK Thunder12/07/2021
a mon that resists hurricane/fire blast and is neutral to focus blast might have some niche; same for scyther, resisting flying+neutral to fighting+knock absorb. was a better stop to these than it was drampa given that ran e ball is my take on it, so C fits for me
same question, but for appletun
do we need to keep it ranked / did it gain some niche with drampa gone?
i have not used it since last puwc

chlo12/07/2021
pix brought it to scl
i haven't attempted to run it since then

Spex12/07/2021
Shield dust is so unfortunate for it

stresh12/07/2021
i've been having a bee crisis recently

stresh12/07/2021
i used to think it was second best mon in the meta
now i feel like it's not even A+

termi12/07/2021
oh
i thought u had a crisis of not losing to bee in the long run
cuz thats how it feels when ur not running wish toge tbh

stresh12/07/2021
oh nah i'm mostly on top of that i think
all my teams are super durable though so there's not a huge difference between how dangerous something is short term or long term for me
unless i do something stupid

termi12/07/2021
im currently rly lost on how to build things that arent tsar + bee balance
everything i build that isnt that just feels
too fishy

stresh12/07/2021
i feel like teams with cleric are just better than teams without cleric
which is a little sad but i don't mind going along with it

stresh12/07/2021
and then wish is the other thing where like depending on team you can afford no wish sometimes but
it feels rly good to have

termi12/07/2021
i blame zard

stresh12/07/2021
esp if you have both
i think it's a mix of
the fact that our faster offensive threats aren't like hugely powerful
and just the amount of status and hazards and generally annoying turns that come from that
if you can never reset toxics you just have to immediately rule out a ton of plays in every game

stresh12/07/2021
zard makes progress largely through toxicing checks and bee doesn't have the immediate power

termi12/07/2021
again offense just doesnt rly work rn for the most

stresh12/07/2021
scyther's strong in this sense but outside of that other mons like archeops are going down

termi12/07/2021
so ur kinda stuck with balance teams that need to be able to play long term games

stresh12/07/2021
yea i've found it kinda really hard to build offense
at first i thought i was just bad at building the meta
now i think it's just the meta


PK Thunder12/07/2021
hail offense might be worth given ice checks are easy to overwhelm but for the most part i agree

termi12/07/2021
yea maybe
we need to see more of it
hail just has the obvious disadvantage of
u have to run multiple ice types
grassy terrain keeps being something that makes me go huh maybe this is good cuz sometimes i get owned by it and then i try to use it and it's ass
really hard not to be zard weak
 
Last edited:

LettuceLeaf07

In my romaine era
is a Pre-Contributor
After using this thing on ladder, I'd like to make a nomination:
:cradily: UR -> B

I had a lot typed (I mean a lot, the sheer amount of calcs I pasted were terrifying), but then I clicked something and lost it, on top of accidentally posting early by spamming enter for no reason. Basically, Cradily eats up hits from the likes of Charizard, Articuno-G, and non-Bug Buzz Ribombee and can fire back with Stone Edge, OHKOing Zard and Bee while 2HKOing Guno.
SpDef w/ Physical Coverage:
Wadjet (Cradily) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock/Toxic
- Recover
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake/Seed Bomb
Rock Slide will OHKO Zard but not Bee and won't always 2HKO Guno. EQ is for Aggron w/o Heavy Slam and Toge, but one of my replays shows how useful grass coverage is.

A mixed set with Giga Drain or Energy Ball can be ran to benefit from Storm Drain boosts and so you aren't as crippled by burns.
If you want to go PhysDef with SpA, use Sludge Wave and a Grass Move, since Wave can guarantee 3HKO on max HP 0 SpD Tsar while Bomb can't. However, Tsar can 2-3HKO Cradily first with Triple Axel and HJK, so you can't even get 1v1 the kill unless Tsar spins.

I also wish to briefly go over some Pro's and Con's:
Pros:
- Tanky
- Recover
- No Sandstorm for the rest of your team (over giga)
- Takes advantage of opposing sandstorm
- Adaptable w/ set options
- Can get around 3/4 of its weaknesses with its STAB/Coverage

Cons:
- 4MSS (can't run rocks+toxic and/or quake+rock+grass)
- No Resistances (electric is kinda rare and normal doesn't count)
- Free Silvally Setup (like many other defensive mons in the tier, especially without toxic)

And the long-awaited replays that I had before I accidently posted early and deleted what I had:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1475525258-2a476t6rlh52yyro3oda900xdkj3eu9pw
(Cradily lasts forever here, and this really shows its longevity compared to other defensive mons that would have died by now, its ability to pressure Guno and other mons, and why grass moves are important)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1477752827-x8x6n5zdz9e80jy0p1pw8i7udn6jzjapw
(Same opponent (yes, ik ,sorry I don't have variety), takes on non-Heavy Slam Aggron around turn 6, note my SpD Cradily would lose to Heavy Slam)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1477748390
(Shuts down Ludicolo, brings in Scrafty, which opens up my Ribombee)
I know those replays aren't perfect, but they do still show Cradily's longevity and ability to pressure teams.

I think Cradily fits in B alongside Lanturn, Aromatisse, and Tangela- all strong defensive mons that have their respective issues. Cradily is arguably better than Clefairy since it can take a Knock Off (very well if you opt for Suction Cups), and has way more offensive pressure than Eldegloss in C.
 
Last edited:

Specs

Getting in your own way
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
New meta time woohoo, here are some noms from me

:bw/jellicent: A to A+/S
Jellicent is king right now and should def move up. Tsareena leaving and Glastrier being a top notch mon make Jellicent much more worthwhile to run, and it is also more splashable on the types of builds we're seeing. On the note of Tsareena being gone, Jellicent also functions as a much better spinblocker now which allows hazard stack teams to work a lot better. Jellicent has gotten better on pretty much every front. Not sure where out of A+ to S it should go, I'd slightly lean S if I'm being honest but we'll do a vote and see

:rs/regirock: A to A+
Regirock functions as a great catch all physical check, and benefits from 2 drops we got (Ninjask and Glastrier). It also feels more splashable now, similar to Jellicent. Regirock was probably going to rise no matter what drops/rises we got as it was so good in the last meta, and in this new meta it just feels even better. Easy rise imo

:ss/glastrier: to at the very least A
Really solid mon, has the bulk to 1v1 just about anything and while we have some switch ins it can run sets that could also mess with them. Boots Jellicent being the top set really helps with Payback/Crunch sets, Body Press/CC deal with steels that could want to offensively pressure you after a switch, our Fire types do not want to hard in either as they either take too much or don't actually 1v1 you. Overall great mon that doesn't fit on all teams, but really shines on some and is clearly something you need to take into account in the builder

:gs/espeon: to A+
Top breaker and doesn't take too much to fit it on builds. Espeon feels like it's at a top tier position, being able to run multiple very good sets and having coverage to at least annoy a majority of the tier. Trick sets cripple very defensive Steel types, allowing you to win out vs them. Good speed tier which has had a big impact on the meta (seeing Ninjask a good bit, and more of Sneasel now). Defensive sets have also been toyed around with and while I have not ran them myself, there's been a lot of positive talk there. I think Espeon is a step above the A ranked mons and looks to be at home in A+

:gs/sneasel: to B+
With Jellicent on the rise and Espeon also being a top mon, Sneasel feels more worthwhile to run. SD Boots checks Espeon very nicely, they need to Gleam on the switch to punish you and that isn't always the easiest move to click. Knock from Sneasel also helps out team mates like Espeon get rid of say Eviolite on Ferroseed, or Leftovers on Gigalith. Sneasel didn't improve a massive amount to where I would rank it in the A's but it's no doubt better

:rs/ninjask: to B+/A-
I'm a fan of where Ninjask fits into this meta. It's definitely annoying to face lol but the vortexes it creates aren't that punishing, and there is a tradeoff with running it now. It has extremely little defensive value and it doesn't really hard into our grass types either which is usually the one way it gets in. Ninjask does allow you to get things in potentially though and with the right build SD sets aren't bad either. I'd say B+ is probably the best place for it but I wouldn't shut down adding it to A- either

:bw/archeops: A to A+
Big fan of Archeops atm. Has just enough defensive utility to where it gets in, and does a lot when its in. Ninjask being around is great for it, they basically can never Flying move on your switch or else they'll be in a good bit of trouble. You also break less Def invested Jellicents, do a good bit of net damage each time to Regirock with EQ -> U-turn, check Special Charizard sets for most of the game. Idk Archeops feels like it has gotten better, lmk what you think
 

LettuceLeaf07

In my romaine era
is a Pre-Contributor
I decided I was allowed to have opinions, so here we go:

:absol:B- -> B+
Absol is a unique combination of a wallbreaker and a revenge killer, and it really helps make progress against fatter teams. It's dark STAB matches up well against most of the tier, and with coverage in Play Rough, only the 4-5 fairies in the tier actually block Absol. Absol's bulk does hold it back, and Sucker Punch mind games are often needed to check faster Pokémon, but that doesn't stop Absol from punching holes in opposing teams.

Here's a replay where Absol did just that:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1484261420 (Turn 30-34)
Because of Absol's power and access to Sucker Punch, I was able to break through the opposing Weezing and use sucker punch to KO the Froslass. Even though Absol died after that, it opened up the opponent's team for my other mons to win.

I also want to bring up its 3-month usage, being used more than both Gallade and Centiskorch in A-.
| 27 | Absol | 7.689% |
| 36 | Gallade | 4.772% |
| 47 | Centiskorch | 3.503% |
I know that usage doesn't prove viability, but between its ability to cripple opposing walls, pressure Jelli which is always nice, and revenge kill with sucker punch, I think that the usage helps show it's got a stronger niche than its current B- rank denotes.

:hitmontop: B -> B+ :eldegoss: C -> B (or anywhere higher than C)
These two are the best rapid spinners in the tier after Tsareena left us. Hitmontop provides the offensive pressure that Tsareena did while Eldegoss has longevity and a similar defensive matchup as Tsareena. Additionally, Eldegoss is never walled by Jellicent, and Hitmontop can (and has to) run Technician Thief to get a 90 BP dark move that lets it hit Jelli. I haven't used or faced Eldegoss enough to know if B is the right place for it, but as one of the two best spinners we have, it needs to rise regardless.

:jellicent:A -> S
This thing is everywhere. Specs pretty much described why Jelli is good, so I don't feel like I need to describe why it's rising too much, but S feels more appropriate than A+ because of how well Jelli can handle its checks, how long it lasts, and how strong the water type is in the meta.
Here's a replay where I got rekt by a Jellicent because my Hitmontop wasn't running a dark move

:Togedemaru: A+ -> S-
Looking at the other mons in A+, I feel like Togedemaru just offers more than they do. Togedemaru just does so much with its defensive sets in addition to having recovery that I think this rise would show its place in the tier better. It's defensive sets are insane, and its coverage is good against half the tier, matching up well against Jellicent, Gigalith and other Rock-types (not running EQ), and Zard/Guno- which makes scarf sets worthwhile. When played right, its defensive sets don't die (to anything that isn't Espeon). It's not as strong or splashable as Jellicent (hence S- and not S), but almost any team is better with a Togedemaru.




EDIT, to avoid a double-post after 13 days, here's an additional nom and a half:
:whimsicott: B+ -> A
We no longer have Tsareena, and that really opens the door for Whimsicott. Between Defog, its Grass-Fairy typing, and a high speed/prankster, Whimsicott is really good right now. First, I feel like every hazard removal mon has gotten better in the last month, and while I forgot about originally because it doesn't spin, Whimsicott is a really good option for removal. Additionally, its Fairy typing and STAB Moonblast threaten Scrafty, and its Grass STAB performs well against Jellicent and our 20 million rock-type walls. Even after compressing these roles, Whimsicott still has a free moveslot for whatever you need- Switcheroo, Encore, Taunt, Toxic, Stun Spore, U-turn, Knock Off, and more. Overall, I feel like Whimsicott's strengths and flexibility are similar to an A-ranked pokemon, fitting above Silvally-Fairy but below the faces of our tier consisting of Scrafty, Zard, and Guno.

Also, I want to second Specs' nom for Regirock to A+ and say thanks to whoever gave me the Regirock set I use. Not much else to say other than it's a beast with amazing matchups on everything that isn't Jellicent or Espeon. And Cradily still deserves to be ranked!
 
Last edited:
Hello here, instead of nomming a mon on the VR, I will be talking about this new amazing druddigon set I have made.

Druddigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Thunder Punch
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake


Sometimes we all forget that druddigon gets the sheer force ability, which makes it immensely hard to switch into and also has some surprise factor.

Set Details-
252 attack for maximum power, 136 speed to outrun most common physically defensive variants of jellicent and weezing. 120 hp is just leftovers.

Notable Calcs-
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Druddigon Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 354-419 (119.1 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Druddigon Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jellicent: 268-317 (66.3 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Druddigon Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Silvally-Fairy: 442-520 (112.1 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Druddigon Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 406-478 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Druddigon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gigalith: 234-278 (62.5 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Druddigon Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 296-354 (101.3 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Druddigon Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 259-305 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Druddigon Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 231-273 (67.7 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hard Counters-
Well, every pokemon has its flaws, so does druddigon. Sandaconda, Weezing and Defensive Variants of Sandslash Hard Counter This Mon.
Cofagrigus has access to its mummy ability which will remove druddigon's sheer force.

Replay-
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1496172546-68wxdqbscd0p7w02kvd750wxj6hw3zjpw

Thanks for reading the post and have a nice day.

Edit-
Also think that druddigon Should atleast be B+ in the VR, Amazing rocker and is hella annoying for offensive teams. Having access to glare with rough skin+ rocky helmet chip with dragon tail is amazing
 
Just a quick rant on how criminally underrated Rhydon is.
B- ---> at least A
Rhydon @ Eviolite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge/Rock Blast
- Swords Dance

Rhydon's high attack guarantees that it will break through just about any pokemon in the entire tier. Combine that with swords dance just about nothing stands in its way. This gives it a niche completely different from sandaconda as an bulky offensive wall breaking ground type.

Rhydon absolutely destroys glastrier as it will always be faster and easily tanks the icicle crash in return. Rhydon can use rock blast sets to mow through substitute glastrier sets.

Rhydon also outruns aggron and beats it 1v1.

Good matchup against ribombee as it can run rock blast to break through sash if dedicated lead. Ribombee also invites an swords dance from rhydon

Many High tier pokemon are abused and used as setup fodder for rhydon as well. Charizard, archeops, ninjask, gigalith , togedemaru, and scyther allow Rhydon to freely swords dance up an become an even bigger threat.

Calcs when Rhydon is at +2
+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Regirock: 312-368 (85.7 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jellicent: 331-391 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 183-216 (62.6 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mesprit: 342-403 (113.6 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Weezing: 244-288 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Sandaconda: 222-262 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Silvally-Fairy: 345-406 (87.5 - 103%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Whimsicott: 411-484 (126.8 - 149.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO



If you are worried about Rhydon's lack of recovery you can pair it with a teammate such as aromatisse for wish pass/ fighting resistance

In conclusion rhydon has winning matchups against a large amount of pokemon in the A/A+ tiers. It can abuse many of those matchups and become even more unstoppable because of it's wall breaking abilities.
 
I decided I was allowed to have opinions, so here we go:

:absol:B- -> B+
Absol is a unique combination of a wallbreaker and a revenge killer, and it really helps make progress against fatter teams. It's dark STAB matches up well against most of the tier, and with coverage in Play Rough, only the 4-5 fairies in the tier actually block Absol. Absol's bulk does hold it back, and Sucker Punch mind games are often needed to check faster Pokémon, but that doesn't stop Absol from punching holes in opposing teams.

Here's a replay where Absol did just that:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1484261420 (Turn 30-34)
Because of Absol's power and access to Sucker Punch, I was able to break through the opposing Weezing and use sucker punch to KO the Froslass. Even though Absol died after that, it opened up the opponent's team for my other mons to win.

I also want to bring up its 3-month usage, being used more than both Gallade and Centiskorch in A-.
| 27 | Absol | 7.689% |
| 36 | Gallade | 4.772% |
| 47 | Centiskorch | 3.503% |
I know that usage doesn't prove viability, but between its ability to cripple opposing walls, pressure Jelli which is always nice, and revenge kill with sucker punch, I think that the usage helps show it's got a stronger niche than its current B- rank denotes.

:hitmontop: B -> B+ :eldegoss: C -> B (or anywhere higher than C)
These two are the best rapid spinners in the tier after Tsareena left us. Hitmontop provides the offensive pressure that Tsareena did while Eldegoss has longevity and a similar defensive matchup as Tsareena. Additionally, Eldegoss is never walled by Jellicent, and Hitmontop can (and has to) run Technician Thief to get a 90 BP dark move that lets it hit Jelli. I haven't used or faced Eldegoss enough to know if B is the right place for it, but as one of the two best spinners we have, it needs to rise regardless.

:jellicent:A -> S
This thing is everywhere. Specs pretty much described why Jelli is good, so I don't feel like I need to describe why it's rising too much, but S feels more appropriate than A+ because of how well Jelli can handle its checks, how long it lasts, and how strong the water type is in the meta.
Here's a replay where I got rekt by a Jellicent because my Hitmontop wasn't running a dark move

:Togedemaru: A+ -> S-
Looking at the other mons in A+, I feel like Togedemaru just offers more than they do. Togedemaru just does so much with its defensive sets in addition to having recovery that I think this rise would show its place in the tier better. It's defensive sets are insane, and its coverage is good against half the tier, matching up well against Jellicent, Gigalith and other Rock-types (not running EQ), and Zard/Guno- which makes scarf sets worthwhile. When played right, its defensive sets don't die (to anything that isn't Espeon). It's not as strong or splashable as Jellicent (hence S- and not S), but almost any team is better with a Togedemaru.




EDIT, to avoid a double-post after 13 days, here's an additional nom and a half:
:whimsicott: B+ -> A
We no longer have Tsareena, and that really opens the door for Whimsicott. Between Defog, its Grass-Fairy typing, and a high speed/prankster, Whimsicott is really good right now. First, I feel like every hazard removal mon has gotten better in the last month, and while I forgot about originally because it doesn't spin, Whimsicott is a really good option for removal. Additionally, its Fairy typing and STAB Moonblast threaten Scrafty, and its Grass STAB performs well against Jellicent and our 20 million rock-type walls. Even after compressing these roles, Whimsicott still has a free moveslot for whatever you need- Switcheroo, Encore, Taunt, Toxic, Stun Spore, U-turn, Knock Off, and more. Overall, I feel like Whimsicott's strengths and flexibility are similar to an A-ranked pokemon, fitting above Silvally-Fairy but below the faces of our tier consisting of Scrafty, Zard, and Guno.

Also, I want to second Specs' nom for Regirock to A+ and say thanks to whoever gave me the Regirock set I use. Not much else to say other than it's a beast with amazing matchups on everything that isn't Jellicent or Espeon. And Cradily still deserves to be ranked!
What about Morpeko as a rapid spinner? Its max speed of allows it to outspeed far more pokemon and additionally it can't be walled easily by ghost types either (guaranteed 2hko on Jellicent, 3hko if burned & hangry). Furthermore, if you can find a way to raise it's Atk stats, it can become very useful (I prefer to use weakness policy)
 

LettuceLeaf07

In my romaine era
is a Pre-Contributor
What about Morpeko as a rapid spinner? Its max speed of allows it to outspeed far more pokemon and additionally it can't be walled easily by ghost types either (guaranteed 2hko on Jellicent, 3hko if burned & hangry). Furthermore, if you can find a way to raise it's Atk stats, it can become very useful (I prefer to use weakness policy)
You bring up good points, but I haven't seen or used a Morpeko in forever. Then again, I haven't really played in a month, so who knows. Not being walled by Jelli and pressuring psychics seems nice, but as a fast electric type, Morpeko has competition against Togedemaru and Jolteon. Also, Espeon gets Dazzling Gleam, so you have to be careful when playing against it.

I have no idea how you can pull off weakness policy with its terrible 58/58/58 bulk, especially since you are probably EV-ing for max speed and attack. Choice Band or Life Orb sound like infinitely better items.

If you think Morpeko is viable, nominate it. I don't have any experience with it (or the meta rn) and can't speak on its viability, but if you can prove it's worth being used, make a post explaining what it does and where it should be on the VR.
 

5Dots

Metronome
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
What about Morpeko as a rapid spinner? Its max speed of allows it to outspeed far more pokemon and additionally it can't be walled easily by ghost types either (guaranteed 2hko on Jellicent, 3hko if burned & hangry). Furthermore, if you can find a way to raise it's Atk stats, it can become very useful (I prefer to use weakness policy)
Morpeko is just too frail as a Rapid Spinner. Even with Tsareena gone, Hitmontop exists to outclass it, since unlike Morpeko, it gets priority STABS and is far bulkier to boot. Aura Wheel is a great move but it’s just on a not good Pokemon. Weakness Policy sets are just complete gimmicks since A) Morpeko gets ruined by entry hazards/status/priority to make the strategy fall flat in practice, B) it’s frailty means it’s overreliant on Endure to get boosts, which can be negated with any decently strong neutral hit, and C) even if you somehow manage to get a weakness policy boost off, Physical walls like Sandaconda, Tangela, and Regirock is completely fine taking a +2 Aura Wheel and OHKOing back with whatever STAB move they have. Weakness Policy is just not a reliable item to run on any item, let alone Morpeko. Even amongst other physical Electrics, I’d just go for Togedemaru instead, who isn’t paper-thin and can be more effective Speed control instead.

If you were to use Morpeko, I’d probably go Choice Band to make decent use of Aura Wheel and its nice Speed tier (though it’s still not great in this role). It’s a fun Pokemon to show around in ladder matches, but there’s too many flaws to warrant usage in serious matches/tours.
 

Hera

Cute and genuine as ever
is a Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
PUPL Champion
It's been about a month since the new drops, and I think now is a splendid time to start talking about noms (posted this early by accident, very sorry).

:espeon: NEW to A+/S

Espeon has quickly risen as a top-tier breaker that's easily splashable on many teams. Between a powerful STAB and great coverage for this tier's special walls (outside of Togedemaru), Trick, and surprising set diversity, it's easy to see how good it is on paper and in practice. Choice Specs is an objective upgrade to Galarcuno's set unless you really liked U-turn on a mon with a Rocks weakness, CM/Morning Sun sets take advantage of some counterplay like Scrafty + Audino cores, and I've even seen Curse + WP sets find success to take advantage of U-turn Toge. I think what really makes this a case for S-tier though are the defensive sets. Ever since Tsar left, many teams are either running Defog Zard (bad set, gets lured and Knocked by too much stuff, if offensive then you really want Toxic for Rocks, if defensive then same issue but at least you can spread Toxic), Eldegoss (you need Leech to spin on Jellicent which causes 4MSS), or defensive Espeon as their way of dealing with hazards. IMO defensive Espeon is super good at blocking Rocks from our standard Rockers, like Aggron and Gigalith, and is one of the biggest reasons why there has been an uptick in stuff like Palossand, Runerigus, and NGas Weezing that can get their hazards up in spite of defensive Espeon. Compared to the other A+ mons, there's an argument to be made that Espeon is more meta-defining than most of them and can offer more to a team.

:glastrier: NEW to A

A powerful and flexible breaker that's held back by an awful Speed tier and a Rocks weakness. However, unlike our usual slow-but-powerful breakers like Centiskorch and Perserrker, Glastrier has legitimate defensive utility due to its absurd bulk even though it has a bad defensive typing. Band sets seem to be the most effective for immediate power, and it can leverage its sizeable bulk even after Rocks chip. I tried out fast Sub SD sets at the beginning of the meta (enough Speed for Weezing should be fine), and while they are no longer super good, it can take advantage of standard counterplay like the atformentioned Weezing and takes advantage of midgrounds like SpDef Wishiwashi easier. It's pretty good, but it does need significant support in order to properly succeed, which keeps it from being higher.

:ninjask: NEW to A-

U-turn is a very fun button to click right now, considering we have a ton of slow breakers that absolutely love pivot support. Ninjask is just the best at clicking U-turn right now, outside of defensive Togedemaru. Its fast Speed means it can invest a ton in Attack and bulk in order to hit harder and live crucial hits. I really love AcroJaskics due to the higher damage output and removing the unnecessary miss chance DWB has, but between it and Boots, it is clearly the harder set to support. Ninjask's high speed and Speed Boost means you can make it your speed control and change what would've been your speed control (e.g Ribombee, Jolteon, Scarf Mesprit) to something that beats what would otherwise beat your team, and in a tier where role compression is very important, this is huge. However, Ninjask is only really good for speed control and U-turn clicking; sweeps are very rare against well-built teams, and compared to Scytcher, it lacks Knock Off and Brick Break, two things that help Scyther get past its checks. Despite that, I believe Ninjask's ability to enable a myriad of powerful breakers warrants it an A- ranking.

:togedemaru:A+ to S

Togedemaru was always a top 10 mon, but numerous shifts such as Espeon, Magneton rising in usage, and Snow Warning has made it indispensable role compression on teams, being able to switch into most of the mons I just listed and take advantage of them. It's also heavily flexible; between itemless or Leftovers, Lighting Rod or Iron Barbs, and U-turn or Toxic, it is heavily malleable to a wide assortment of balance and bulky offense teams. WishTect may seem easy to pressure in a vacuum (and it is), but in practice, the only things that force Togedemaru out are Ground-types that set hazards or Fighting-types, both of which are heavily prepared for on many teams. Wish support with a slow pivot is also great to a plethora of mons, like Whimsicott, Weezing, and Gallade, who enjoy being around longer. While it does face some sort of competition from Ferroseed because of Spikes, I would argue that using Ferroseed makes you weaker to a ton of threats compared to Togedemaru, like Espeon. Togedemaru right now just seems indispensable on a ton of teams, combined with being a generally great presence no matter the matchup.

:jellicent: A to A+

Ever since Tsareena left, Jellicent has popped off as a powerful Choice Specs user, with a Water Spout that can decimate most things that don't resist it, and a powerful Shadow Ball in a tier with like 3 actual Ghost resists. With Ice Beam to beat Eldegoss, it's clear to see why Choice Specs Jellicent has become a powerful and great breaker in the past month. However, the rise of offensive Jellicent pales in comparison to the rise of defensive Jellicent, which is now the tier's best spinblocker. With solid bulk, a wide disruptive movepool, and reliable recovery, it sits in front of most of our (pretty lackluster) spinner for days, with Pokemon like Morpeko and Whimsicott becoming more popular just so teams can remove their hazards against a Jellicent team. Cursed Body + Taunt also allows it to beat Pokemon it shouldn't, like Scrafty and Ribombee. Jellicent is just super good right now, so it's quite a shame it might be leaving for RU.

:gallade: A- to A

Here's an unfortunate truth: if your team lacks a defensive Ghost-type, Aromatisse, or Rocky Helmet Sandaconda, Gallade wins (or at least helps something else win). Muscle Band sets are absurdly oppressive and limited in terms of defensive counterplay, with the mons I listed above being the only reliable switch-ins to it. Between its dual STABs, Shadow Sneak, and Knock/Leaf Blade/Thunder Punch, it has the power and coverage to break past 90% of the tier. It also benefits from all of the recent drops. Espeon is a breaker Gallade takes advantage of because it's super easy to get it into SS range, Glastrier is offensively checked by Gallade, and Ninjask brings it in on Steels and Rocks with a U-turn. It has great points of entry via all the pivots in the tier right now, and when it gets in, it slays. SD sets are also heavily potent but require a bit more support from my experience, as you really want stuff like Charizard and Ribombee chipped down into +2 SS range or removed by something else before you can sweep, and dropping coverage is occasionally suboptimal, but it's still an amazing breaker. Zen Headbutt flinches are also very competitive.

:whimsicott: B+ to A-

I understand why this was initially dropped (I disagreed though), but in a Tsar-less meta, people naturally wanted a semi-replacement for it. This is one of two options that have arisen in the face of this great loss. Defog sets aren't super bulky, but with Knock, U-turn, and a powerful STAB combination, it's pretty good at crippling and taking advantage of switch-ins like Charizard and Aggron, and the role compression of taking on PJab-less Scrafty is always cool. It threatens out a ton of bulky Waters that are currently running around, it beats Knock Ferro, and it's pretty damn annoying to face combined with something like Espeon. You often need to outsource your Fairy check to something else when you see Whimsicott + Espeon because odds are that Whimsicott is going to remove your Steel's item or cripple it with Switcheroo, letting Espeon keep its power. In that sense, Whimsicott acts as a solid enabler due to Knock. It's genuinely good and a pretty fun mon to use.

:haunter: B to B+

I made a RMT for Tsar meta featuring this mon (insert shameless plug here) and a ton of what I said there still applies. Against 3/5 teams, Haunter clicks Shadow Ball and gets away with it due to the few genuine Ghosts resists this tier has. Its bulk may be a massive detriment, but with Weezing still popular and slow pivots being common, it has solid points of entry and can work as an anti-meta breaker. Togedemaru and Gigalith being the most popular special walls is great for Haunter, as it can 2HKO both of them after minimal chip depending on the move (Shadow Ball and Energy Ball, respectively), and with Audino having the lowest usage since its resurgence + Gallade being super dumb and broken, there are just a ton of matchups where Haunter wrecks house. It's a decently hard-to-fit breaker because of its aforementioned atrocious bulk with little defensive utility, unless you have the guts to hard this thing in on a Choice-locked CC or something, but I believe the risk to often be worth the reward.

:palossand: B to B+

This nom is a thing for two reasons: Espeon and Gallade (well 3 if you count Tsar leaving but Tsar leaving was a benefit for half the tier). Being able to threaten out a popular hazards deterrent in order to get your hazards up is always a good thing, especially since defensive Espeon teams usually do not have a secondary removal option, and being one of the rare switch-ins to most Gallade sets is a nice thing to have on balance builds. There really isn't much else to say about Palossand though, it just appreciates some good mons being as good as they are so it can take advantage of them. It's quite one-dimensional but fits on more teams than it did over the past 6 months, and often ends up providing more. The only issue with Palossand is that you need to make your Zard switch-in something else, but Wishiwashi is popular and good so this isn't a massive deal.

:magmortar: B- to B

The thing about Fire switch-ins (read: Charizard switch-ins) is that they are either bulky Water-types like SpD Wishiwashi, or Rock-types like Regirock. These falter against Magmortar for obvious reasons. While it is harder to fit because little defensive profile + lower Speed, it can quickly dismantle cores as long as you hit Focus Blast. Between its STAB, Thunderbolt, and Focus Blast, few teams can say they reliably switch into Magmortar, and those that do can get abused by its 4th move. I've been using Taunt to stop Audino from Wishing something or using Toxic, but I think Teleport and Toxic are also viable choices: the former lets Magmortar pivot into a Fighting-type like Gallade for the switch-ins it does have (or when it doesn't want to risk Focus Blast hitting twice), while the latter cripples Gigalith and other stuff that try to abuse Focus Blast's low accuracy. I would heavily suggest using Magmortar, as so far I haven't been disappointed with its impact in games and its breaking power.

:eldegoss: C to B-

Remember when I said there were two mons that mainly tried to fill the gap Tsareena left in the tier? This is the other one. It was always the middle child in terms of defensive Grass in this tier as some sort of weird mix between Tangela and Tsareena, but was somehow more passive than both because it had nothing to hit Steels with, lacked Toxic, and had to rely on Pollen Puff in order to damage opposing Grasses. In a Tsar-less meta, while it still has issues like 4MSS (Spin and Leech are mandatory imo, and you always want SPowder/Giga/Puff/Aromatherapy/Synthesis for various reasons) and passivity, Tsareena leaving is quite the boon for the mon. With Regenerator and great special bulk, it's a consistent answer/midground to many of the tier's powerful special breakers, like Espeon and Jellicent. A consistent trend throughout this post is a lack of hazard removal options, and when we have to rely on this passive ass mon with a great shiny (Black Eagles FTW), things seem quite dire. Still, competition leaving was pretty good for Eldegoss, and it does have genuine traits that give it a reason to be used, so it deserves to rise.

:morpeko: UR to C

Idk what 5Dots has against Morpeko, this mon is cool. I have no replays because I never thought I'd be making this nom, but from personal experience, I can attest that it's viable. The main niche it has is that it usually can't be spinblocked as an offensive spinner. Jellicent takes super effective damage no matter what mode Morpeko is, and the other Ghosts either get pivoted on by Parting Shot, or have to waste their Colbur on a Hangry Mode Aura Wheel. Its typing also isn't awful; we've seen Sneasel become more popular as an offensive switch-in that takes advantage of Espeon's main STAB, and Morpeko can be used in the same way. Moreover, it has Seed Bomb to threaten Ground-types like Quagsire and Sandaconda, and if all else fails, Parting Shot is a very spammable and great move to use, only being blocked by Regirock and Espeon, the latter of which doesn't want to come in. I also remember chlo liking this so I'd say it's decently viable, especially when paired with Togedemaru for Wish support.

:cryogonal: UR to C

I don't have a ton to say about this, I was theorymonning a while ago and it seems decent on paper. It spins on Jellicent like Morpeko, but is different because Knock + Freeze-Dry is surprisingly annoying, and combined with Recover, it can stay on the field for long periods of time. I haven't actually used this thing but I think Skankovich has, maybe they can provide more insight into it.

:hattrem: C to UR

Espeon exists, nuke it. Theoretically, Nuzzle and Mystical Fire do separate it from Espeon, allowing it to threaten Steel-types easier...but at that point, I would just use Galardash, or just build a better team.

:rotom-frost: C to UR

Frostom feels like a very "on-paper" mon. On paper, it has a devastating STAB combination, Wisp to cripple Togedemaru, and Nasty Plot to break stuff, but in practice, it almost always feels not worth using. Ever since Snow Warning was unbanned, both Aurous and Vanniluxe have gotten better. Vanniluxe spams crazy powerful Blizzards with Specs or annoys defensive cores with Toxic + Taunt + Hail chip, while Aurous has better coverage and the funny Rock Polish Meteor Beam set that sounds like a meme until you get 6-0ed by it. I think what separates Frostom from other Ice-type breakers is initial power (generally is not seen running Specs, and having a pivot move on a Rocks weak mon feels like anti-synergy) and consistency (both Vanniluxe and Aurous have Snow Warning, which turns Blizzard into a move that cannot miss; Frostom has to contend with Blizzard's 70% accuracy, which makes it less consistent overall), and I'm often finding myself going to either Aurous or Vanniluxe due to these factors over Frostom. If Slush Rush was legal, then I would say that Frostom could have a niche on Hail teams as speed control or a stallbreaker, but because it's not, Frostom can't be used on these teams. The final nail in the coffin for me is that by using Frostom, you are forgoing the regular Rotom, which to me is just so much better than Frostom. I don't believe Frostom is powerful enough and faces too much competition from existing pieces in the meta to warrant a continued ranking.

Thanks for reading! As always, I am open to criticism on any of these noms.
 
Last edited:

LettuceLeaf07

In my romaine era
is a Pre-Contributor
i would like to inquire about the addition of octillery or dunsparce
They're not good.

Both Octillery and Dunsparce are too slow to do anything. Most of the slow Pokémon currently on the VR are very defensive (Gigalith/Regirock), or have an insane attack stat worth using (Glastrier). This is neither of Octillery and Dunsparce. Neither of these have recovery, either, meaning that if they survive a hit, they aren't recovering that damage, and are still getting outsped and killed next turn.

Technically Dunsparce does have Roost but your point stands.
My bad- I only checked Octillery there. But yeah, Roost is not making it a defensive staple anyways.
 
Last edited:
They're not good.

Both Octillery and Dunsparce are too slow to do anything. Most of the slow Pokémon currently on the VR are very defensive (Gigalith/Regirock), or have an insane attack stat worth using (Glastrier). This is neither of Octillery and Dunsparce. Neither of these have recovery, either, meaning that if they survive a hit, they aren't recovering that damage, and are still getting outsped and killed next turn.


My bad- I only checked Octillery there. But yeah, Roost is not making it a defensive staple anyways.
what about assault vest energy ball hydro pump fire blast and then another coverage move is that good enough or nah also i was thinking of running dunsparce like togekiss like using agility with sticky web on the field to outspeed then spam airslash or headbutt but yeah its fine i just like octillery lol
 
what about assault vest energy ball hydro pump fire blast and then another coverage move is that good enough or nah also i was thinking of running dunsparce like togekiss like using agility with sticky web on the field to outspeed then spam airslash or headbutt but yeah its fine i just like octillery lol
I think it would be best to post ideas like this after testing and knowledge about the tier. Theorymonning is fine, but it would be best to at least test it.

About octillery: It's too slow, not bulky enough, and although it has solid attacking stats and great coverage, it just can't ever get onto the field safely and is generally outclassed by other waters.

Webs is a decent playstyle right now, but using dunsparce would be a huge waste for these types of teams because without a boost to speed, it's too slow for even webs, and without attack boosts, it's incredibly weak.
 

gum

for the better
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
gm, there's been no vr update in 3 months and this thread is kinda dead x so just gna drop some noms to hopefully revive it!!

F1E0F42D-9EA4-4A23-8377-56D1CEF220D8.png
to b+
starting with the "new" mons, i think b+ fits ninjask pretty well. being so ridiculously fast helps it immensely and allows it to revenge kill mons like ribombee, but i think that scyther is otherwise the better mon; it forces out more due to hitting considerably harder (which often makes it a better pivot), has knock off, and also can take some hits when necessary. jask isn't a bad mon at all obviously, but i think its rank should reflect on how it competes with scyther for a slot

7053F909-BF29-4A81-A821-D20C95A73378.png
to a-
very threatening wallbreaker but the abysmal speed and defensive typing means it also often ends up inviting in mons that u often don't want to let it. also, jellicent being so common and good hurts it a lot, while espeon leaving the tier means it requires additional support. however it can still trade with more than half of the meta if it wants to, which is a very unique attribute to have as a breaker. kinda hard to fit on teams but u'll often always get something out of it

D0F8BAE8-5316-4A5D-BCC6-020C28216C99.png
to a+
this mon is amazing and easily a top 5 mon in my eyes; the choice specs set is extremely threatening while the defensive set walls a huge portion of the meta, including all of our spinners bar like, offensive eldegoss? it just does a lot super reliably and is extremely easy to fit on teams

:ferroseed: to a+
ugly sprite! anyway spikes are super good right now and ferro is our best setter, while also being a great check to mons like specs jelli, sneasel, and ribombee depending on its spread. also it can actually click leech seed now that espeon isn't around, which means it actually has a decent amount of longevity for a mon with no passive or reliable recovery. every mon that can switch into that move bar like, lurantis (good mon btw!), also loses to ferroseed so u just get more spikes up most of the time, while partners such as gigalith or regirock appreciate the recovery it brings

:sneasel: to a
another ugly sprite :(. sneasel is great!! band is a pain to switch into and it has a superb speed tier meaning u can often come in on choice-locked mons or after a mon has died and just click buttons. boots sets are also very good and trade power for the potential to sweep, which isn't an impossible scenario considering scarfers are kinda rare at the moment as people seem to prefer running a fast mon like ribombee, and knock off being broken means u have an easy time pressuring your "answers" like regirock. requires support but i think it's worth it on a lot of teams

0031A013-D06E-4A24-BFCC-D9D7CE414659.png
to a-
another big jump but i think it's warranted! sd sets are much more threatening right now as a lot of the speed control options drop to a +2 accelrock, or are super easy to chip into range. same goes for defensive answers; most of them bar quagsire and the very uncommon tangela and palossand drop to a +2 move after some chip, which is easy to get considering they often have to switch into other mons. aoa sets are also decent and less reliant on a boost due to the added coverage. also u can revenge kill ribombee and togedemaru is spdef like 90% of the time now!

2E747297-CB3B-4EB1-A909-7E0995F960C8.png
to a-
last big jump x. mag eats a lot of defensive cores alive with how stupid its coverage is, and it really only needs 3 moves (fire blast, tbolt, focus blast), which means it's also a very customizable breaker. i think toxic is the most annoying 4th move as it makes gigalith a way worse answer to u and also eases 50/50s a lot of the time. being slower than galarcuno kinda sucks but like, you're so threatening it doesn't matter that much. it does compete with zard a bit but it also hits much harder and has coverage for water-types while also not relying on hurricane to make progress so like yass idk it's good

6E4BB4B2-8255-4696-9A46-D95219442B4A.png
to b-/b
i think b- is fine but i've had a lot of fun with sd galardash! it doesn't hit particularly hard and can struggle to get past ferroseed, sandaconda, quagsire (all mons that are somewhat easy to take advantage of) but it has really solid coverage options and a much better speed tier with espeon now being gone. not like, an amazing mon but it's definitely better than a lot of mons in b- imo, other than the ones that need to rise

idrc much about these noms but i think it's still worth bringing them up

lurantis -> ranked somewhere, it's a super solid defogger and the only one that beats both ferroseed and rock-types. also it's better than eldegoss, which probably doesn't say much but it's still worth mentioning
mesprit -> a-, just not as good as it once was sadly
weezing -> a-, it doesn't really wall that much at all? and it invites in a lot, but tspikes are great
whimsicott -> higher, rly good speed tier and switcheroo defog sets are solid

the b-ranks probably need a very large update, but it's kinda hard to tell what to do with a lot of mons there. also, no clue what should happen with the s-rank; idt any mon is particularly better than everything else and ik pu doesn't have criteria for ranks but idk i think it might b time to finally do that

thank u for reading!!
 
1647863991215.png
Arctovish, ive seen nothing but Slander on this mon here.
Arctovish @ Choice Band
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Icicle Crash
- Crunch
- Psychic Fangs
Being the strongest hitting breaker in pu atm deserves a bit more then not being ranked.
By no means do I think that vish is the best breaker, as it struggles vs faster atkrs such as vallys.
Of course its main competition as a breaker is Glastrier, Glastrier has some distinkt advantages over Arctovish for sure.
1. Its not forced to be cb (anything but cb vish is trash)
2. It fairs alot better vs faster atkrs and Electrics.
3. Its insane bulk, vish is by no means frail but compered to Glastrier it might as well be.

However Arctovish has some clear advantages over Glastrier as well.
1. Speed, by no means fast, but it does not need to worry about getting will o wisped by weezing or jelly in the 1v1. (Obvs not if they are at 100% hp)
2. Power, Fishious Rend is a stupid stupid move that does not care about being resisted.
252+ Atk Choice Band Arctovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 90-107 (30.8 - 36.6%) -- 65.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Arctovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
3. Scald/water immune, a minor advantage but non the less important.

While not the highest of ladder games a bit of a show case of what vish can do/struggles with.

All in all id put Arctovish at a solid B+
Arctovish @ Choice Band
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Icicle Crash
- Crunch
- Psychic Fangs

Togedemaru @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 HP / 248 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Wish
- Spiky Shield

Weezing @ Black Sludge
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Toxic Spikes
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split

Eldegoss @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed
- Aromatherapy

Uxie @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Dazzling Gleam

Scrafty @ Leftovers
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
- Dragon Dance
 

Specs

Getting in your own way
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Gm, we ranked the mons from the New mons section!

:glastrier: Glastrier to A-

While we feel Glastrier isn't the easiest to build with, there is no denying its pure breaking power and decent set diversity. Builds that are able to justify it work and are not the easiest thing to deal with if it gets free switches. Volt turn + spikes is probably the most classic example, being able to pound through Jellicent since it has to choose between colbur or boots to combat one of Crunch/Payback or hazards

:Ninjask: Ninjask to B+
While Ninjask took a hit with the recent banning of Espeon it still has a lot of good qualities. The absolute annoyance it can cause certain builds is clear, and enabling breakers such as Glastrier that was mentioned above, Lycanroc being able to get in and threaten Aggron/Toge, Sneasel, ect. Ninjask is a good progress maker because of what it allows teams to do, you just won't be using it on everything and thats okay. It's in a good spot

:Arctovish: Arctovish to B-

We don't have too much faith in Arctovish tbh but it might just be that we don't see it enough. After reading the nom above I definitely wanna try it out more, it just seems to have the same issues it has always had. Not being put on teams consistently enough, and having some very sus match ups to where it doesn't do much. Jellicent is still everywhere and it's tough to always click right vs it. All in all to me it's high risk with just not enough reward. We'll look into it's position in the meta
more though

Expect a full on update once shifts come, thank you for all the noms already made. Keep them coming, thank you for reading all!
 
Going to talk about a few unranked mons that imo have a good niche and could be put somewhere in the B or C ranks :

:lurantis:
Lurantis is very nice in this meta because unlike other grass types it easily beats steel types like togedemaru, ferroseed who are everwyhere. It is very customizable. Possibility to run phys def to be better against rock/ground types or spedef for better jelli/jolteon/whimsi check. knock off, defog, aromatherapy, synthesis are all good to run. Contrary leaf storm/superpower allow it to wallbreak or even sweep.

:cryogonal:
Cryogonal is such a good counterplay to spikers like weezing, qwilfish who’s been used more recently to check Glastrier, while still checking some attackers that you find on a lot of teams like whimsicott, jellicient etc. obviously it’s walled to death by steel types, but you still have chances to freeze and possibility to spin/defog. Being able to threaten the ghost type of the moment, jellicient, as a spinner and articuno-galar as a defogger is cool.

:shiinotic:
Obviously Shiinotic has some problems because strength sap isnt the most reliable recovery, but it's still a very good counter to ground types and Scrafty. Spore prevents it from being too passive which is nice. In the end its not too different from whimsicott. Its just much more reliable at countering these threats while dealing better with mons like toge that you can put to sleep.
 

termi

bike is short for bichael
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Lightning round with a whole bunch of noms since a VR update should be happening soonish. Gonna try not to get into them too much. I'll try to avoid nomming mons already brought up in recent-ish posts, I definitely agree with i.e. Sneasel and Lycanroc rising a lot though.

:comfey: -> C: ngl this thing is not very good. As a hazard remover it struggles against most hazard setters, whereas setup sweeper sets really struggle to get anything going in a tier infested with Togedemaru, Charizard, Garbodor, et cetera.

:garbodor: -> B+: Maybe it could go higher depending on where the meta goes from here but this seems like a safe placement for now. Spikes are quite strong right now but fitting Garbodor on a team and getting it in during a battle can be a bit troublesome when most of the things it used to check defensively (Passimian, Tsareena) are gone.

:aggron: A+ -> A-: Aggron's lacking special bulk has been a known issue but its ability to consistently threaten the primary hazard control options in the meta (first Tsareena, then Espeon) was a strong boon. These days I feel like it's harder to justify using Aggron instead of using a different Steel type (i.e. Togedemaru, Ferroseed) and putting SR on a Regi/Gigalith/Sandaconda/etc instead. A significant drop is warranted.

:gigalith: A+ -> A: Gigalith hasn't been better than Regirock in a minute now. Physical bulk is presently more useful than special bulk as far as I'm concerned, it's still a solid option but A+ is a bit much imo.

:archeops: A -> A+: Was maybe a little awkward to fit on teams for a while but atm I find it quite easy to slap on a team and it's so damn dangerous with its power, coverage, and ability to U-Turn into scary breakers like Specs Jellicent.

:jellicent: A -> S: Jellicent is an amazing spinblocker, really appreciates Tsareena's departure. Defensive sets with Taunt are incredibly difficult to punish to the point where Jelli can contribute a decent amount to breaking teams despite being a defensive mon. Specs is also super dangerous of course. If anything in the meta deserves to be S rank it should be Jelli.

:mesprit: A -> A-: Espeon came and went but Mesprit is still not as good as it used to be as far as I can tell. Scarf has fallen out of favor (literally who uses scarfers in TYOL 2022), Specs obviously faces competition from Guno, SR sets are fine sometimes but eh. Biggest danger by far is its Stored Power set but even there it faces competition from faster and bulkier Uxie.

:weezing: A -> B: Tsareena is literally gone! Espeon being gone means Neutgas Tspikes can't cheese any wins either, meanwhile we also got a new Tspikes absorber. Weezing just doesn't check that much in the meta. Pretty good movepool still but I don't see it being amazing outside of particular builds that need the specific things it can bring to the table.

:centiskorch: A- -> B: Never been easy to build with but it's worth it in metas that are very fat and slow since it demolishes those teams, however it seems since Espeon arrived the meta has become less passive and so Centi seems more and more like a matchup fish.

:glastrier: A- -> lower: ngl I don't know where I'd put this but this thing is very clearly not all that. A slow as hell ice type is already a nuisance to build with and when Jellicent is basically the best mon in the meta it requires specific sets and some luck in order to muscle past that, so is it even worth building with? It also took a massive L when Espeon got banned.

:audino: B+ -> B: Audino builds just don't seem like the wave to me rn.

:whimsicott: B+ -> A-: It still has its share of flaws and is still not as good as Ribombee but it compresses a Scrafty and Conda check in one slot and its access to Defog is more appreciated in a meta that is low on good hazard removal options.

:aromatisse: B -> C: I still think this mon is garbage. Yeah you check Gallade as long as it's low in enough to be in Moonblast range and you don't get flinched, wow. It also lets in a bunch of hazard setters and is generally such an awful momentum suck.

:aurorus: B -> C: Doesn't really seem like a good rocker and as a breaker wouldn't you rather use an Ice type with more useful resists and/or higher speed?

:basculin: B -> C/UR: I don't see what purpose this thing serves. It's definitely not breaking any teams in this meta.

:cofagrigus: B -> C: The ID + BPress set is a matchup fish and not even a very good one since any team with a Zard, Bee, or Jellicent will give it trouble. I don't see what other niche this thing has. It used to be able to spinblock vs Tsareena but atm it's not really a much better spinblocker than Jelli so it seems pretty bad rn.

:druddigon: B -> B-: I know ladder loves this mon but I already thought it was an awkward fit on most teams and it can neither profess to check Tsareena nor ignore Espeon's Magic Bounce with Mold Breaker so its utility seems a bit lacking. It doesn't check a whole lot.

:sawk: B -> C: Damn B rank is inflated as fuck. Sawk is a strictly inferior Gallade as far as I can tell.

:arctovish: B- -> UR: Raw power is not enough to distinguish yourself, especially in a tier where sturdy Water resists are common and good. Just run Specs Jelli if you want a Water type breaker.

:flapple: B- -> C: I just don't think it's good enough of a breaker to justify running it given its downsides. At least it's not directly outclasssed by something else.

:stunfisk-galar: B- -> B: I've been a hater of this mon since forever but I actually think it can be useful right now since as far as Steel type rockers go it's much sturdier on the special side than Aggron and it no longer gets invalidated by Tsareena/Espeon. It's still weak and passive as hell tho and sorta has 4mss but it's certainly a viable option.

:hattrem: C -> B?: I haven't quite figured out just how good Hattrem is right now but it's definitely a solid option in a metagame that is wanting for hazard control. It sits on nearly all the common hazard setters so that's very nice.

:ludicolo: C -> B-: Ludicolo is probably one of the better offensive setup sweepers we have right now tbh. Its coverage is very dangerous and with Tsareena out of the way it is both easier to justify running (less competition as a Grass type) and has an easier time sweeping.

:shiftry: C -> B+: This is of course a rather massive rise but it is warranted. If you're looking for a Tsareena replacement this is just about the closest thing right now, and it comes with a rare Ghost resistance to boot!

Shiftry @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pickpocket
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 156 SpD / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
- Defog
- Leaf Storm
- Knock Off
- Synthesis


This set combines hazard control with a reliable Sandaconda check, Knock Off support, and a Jelli check. It's great role compression. Use it! Offensive sets are also very potent right now if you don't need the hazard control.

E: forgot to include this one

:ninjask: B+ -> B-: Its main boon is obviously its speed, which allowed it to distinguish itself clearly from Scyther when Espeon was around. However, without that in the tier, Scyther seems pretty obviously superior thanks to its higher power, better bulk, and access to Knock Off. Most relevant things between Scyther and Ninjask's speed tier either have SE priority for Ninjask, resist its STABs, or (in Bee's case) can boost their speed in order to outpace Ninjask anyway.
 
Last edited:

LettuceLeaf07

In my romaine era
is a Pre-Contributor
'Quick' thoughts I want to get out before the update, keep in mind I haven't been able to build really since Hitmontop left, and haven't played in the new meta too much, but I still think these rises are warranted.

:thwackey: C -> B (or B-, just higher than stuff like Appletun, Gapidash, and Lilligant)
I'm convinced that Thwackey is secretly strong, with a really strong grass STAB terrain-boosted wood hammer to threaten half the tier's defensive cores, and tools like Knock and U-Turn to help out in situations that Wood Hammer can't solve. Additionally, resists can't switch into Thwackey through an entire game, since they lack recovery or really hate knock.

Thwackey isn't perfect, since its own terrain does heal things it's trying to kill, and Wood Hammer Recoil is no joke, as seen almost killing mine in the replay hidden in the Spoiler. The Jellicent MU isn't perfect, since Knock isn't a clean 2HKO. I also found my Thwackey getting burned a lot and then being able to do nothing for the rest of a game for some reason, so be wary of that against Jelli.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1555432209
If my Quag didn't wall this entire team, then the pressure my Thwackey put on his defense would have opened up my Zard to win there. Just shows how well Thwackey can open up a team. I know that a better ranked player won't lose their giga turn 1 to that, and would probably have a better switch-in to that, but that wood hammer still pressures teams, especially without poison types.

EDIT: Here's another Thwackey game, where Thwackey wins the Gallade speed tie and was my only plan in the endgame, showing it does work against higher ladder: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1555599281-i03lsx2seg3eid9kzzklazg9elu2oftpw

Weak to Grass:
252 Atk Choice Band Thwackey Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gigalith in Grassy Terrain: 456-536 (121.9 - 143.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Thwackey Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Regirock in Grassy Terrain: 252-296 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
Not even doing Quag

Jellicent:
252 Atk Choice Band Thwackey Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jellicent in Grassy Terrain: 530-626 (131.1 - 154.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Thwackey Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jellicent in Grassy Terrain: 308-366 (76.2 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Knock on Jelli, going non-colbur, colbur, and no item:
252 Atk Choice Band Thwackey Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jellicent: 220-260 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Thwackey Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Colbur Berry Jellicent: 110-130 (27.2 - 32.1%) -- 52.3% chance to 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Thwackey Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jellicent: 148-176 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
(note that this is where Jelli burns you and your Thwackey becomes useless, and adamant knock on the switch could kill, but i didn't want to calc for terrain recover + damage over 2 turns)

Decent chip on Resists:
252 Atk Choice Band Thwackey Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garbodor in Grassy Terrain: 117-138 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 82.6% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Thwackey Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Weezing in Grassy Terrain: 93-110 (27.8 - 32.9%) -- 86% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Thwackey Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard in Grassy Terrain: 88-103 (29.6 - 34.6%) -- 11.1% chance to 3HKO
(keep in mind this thing also has knock for that zard switch)
252 Atk Choice Band Thwackey Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togedemaru in Grassy Terrain: 207-245 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

:cryogonal: Keep UR (Or, in retrospect, C- or C at best)
A spinner that beats Jelli is nice, but that's all it does. An ice-type in a meta of rock types isn't ideal, and at least mons like Eldegoss and Morpeko can do something besides spin and toxic on rockers (like hit them with grass or parting shot). I'm convinced that it's not worth using Cryogonal over any of those, and I have maybe seen it work once in a game, if ever. Besides, it doesn't even beat Jelli that well, since these are the calc for the specs and defensive variants:
252 SpA Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 180-212 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO
I mean, I guess it walls specs, and maybe that warrants a C- ranking, but anything outside of this niche makes me want an Eldegoss, since even with its worse specs Jelli MU (ice beam), at least goss can regenerate, recover with giga drain, and have a chance of beating rock types.

(I just went back and read yandaud's post and realized I forgot about everything that doesn't counter Cryogonal, but this thing shouldn't be ranked higher than C even if you do consider that, and I still haven't seen it work in an actual game/replay)


:whimsicott: B+ -> A-
:Jellicent: A -> S
Just agreeing with Termi here. Our best defensive mon, anti-spinner, and a solid specs mon should be S-rank, and without Tsareena, Whimsi needs to actually rise.

:Basculin: B -> C
I think C is better than URing this mon, since it's technically the strongest (fast) special breaker with its specs adaptability hydro pumps. I'm not going to say it's good, but it does damage if you can make it work:
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Basculin Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 292-344 (78 - 91.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Basculin Scald vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Regirock: 368-436 (101 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And yes, Specs is better than Band here, since banded Liquidation doesn't OHKO Regi. And don't forget it has flip turn for pivoting/chipping.


I haven't touched the rest of these since Espeon meta, so these next noms aren't that solid. They're mostly updates of old noms I made, and they still feel warranted in comparison to the mons in positions I'm nomming them to:
:absol: B- -> B
I've been a fan of Absol for a while, and what it pressures between knock, cc, and sucker is enough to warrant its rise. I feel like Absol is more reliable than stuff like Clefairy and Flapple, and on-par with Perrserker, who is currently in B.

:Jolteon: B- -> B
I guess I love using B- mons, but I found Jolteon to be a good late game cleaner back before Hitmontop left. Specs volt switches and Tbolts are fun to fire off, and obliterating that Jelli, Zard, and/or Guno that you opponent saved for last is easy and satisfying. I know that isn't much of an argument, but actually being able to outspeed Zard and the like should give Jolteon the edge over Magneton, right? Additionally, it's special bulk is just enough to switch into these threats safely, at least once, which can be useful to gain momentum or a KO.
252 SpA Articuno-Galar Freezing Glare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jolteon: 150-177 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:cradily: UR -> At least C plz
I haven't touched this in even longer, but on paper it's a defensive mon that can pressures rock types, Jelli, steels (if running EQ), Zard/Guno, and more. Cradily is underexplored atm, and even with 4MSS (toxic/Sr/grass knot/Edge/Quake/Recover and maybe leech seed) and I feel like it deserves a chance. Please don't ask for replays since I haven't touched this in forever, but I did a more in-depth post if you scroll up and read my thoughts from four months ago.

Edit: Added another Thwackey game
 
Last edited:

Chloe

is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
NUPL Champion
1) official council business: we will FINALLY be voting on the vr slate this weekend! so please get your nominations in before then!
2) i have a few noms i haven't seen posted yet on the thread that i want included on the slate so here i am!

B+ to B/B-
i love froslass as a pokemon but it is unfortunately not very potent in the current meta. cb sets are seeing absolutely no usage due to how sneasel is literally a better physical ice in addition to itemless toge returning to take that on. spike sets aren't rly justifiable bc ho is not good atm + garb is a better overall spike setter. there's probably a way to make this work atm as 350 will always be an amazing speed tier in pu, but unfortunately atm there is very little reason to use a froslass.

B to A-
sub sd is insanely good atm with how much toge is being spammed, has no true common checks other than zard which is incredibly easy to abuse with sr + item removal. cb sets are capable of ohko/2hkoing the entire tier including an ohko on zard with double edge. feels like one of the more potent breakers atm and one i find myself using a fair bit.

NEW to B
i think comfey definitely has a greater niche than has been previously outlined. it's very decent removal (fogs vs conda, regirock, etc) that checks scrafty. only set i'd bother running though and it does have competition with eldegoss in my eyes but scrafty check
with removal
and recovery
that is not total garbage like whimsi
is definitely a worthwhile niche.

B+ to B/B-
i do not like this pokemon, and there's in my opinion, a very good reason for this. it's used as a check for scrafty but it gets whittled down way too easily throughout the course of a match to be a solid check for it. it claims to be removal, but it struggles from the exact same thing, it just gets whittled down way too easily. if you don't need a scrafty check, it is in my eyes outclassed by eldegoss. its specs sets are completely walled by togedemaru leaving it useless in most matchups. i think this mon is consistently overrated unfortunately.

B to C
miltank unfortunately struggles to find place on many teams due to tsareena leaving. prior, it was mainly used as a tsar check w rocks, but now it feels ordinary. it's not a pokemon many people run at all and putting it in the same tier as mons like sandslash and rotom feels weird. thick fat sets can be okay, but are usually outclassed by audino / gigalith / any other zard check.

B to C
never rly liked this mon, especially with how much toge is spammed. doesnt rly break much, it's efficient at volt switching into another thing if toge runs iron barbs but even then it just feels like it very rarely puts in work, and feels like you'd much rather run something like manectric rn anyway that actually pressures toge.

B- to B
this mon dropped off for a bit after drampa left, but the ability to compound a zard and scrafty check into one is still great, special bulk is insane, still has sr/knock/all the other utility you've come to love and isn't pressured by hazards in a tier where removal is incredibly scarce. poggers!

C to A-
initially i rly thought this mon was nothing special at all but over time i've come to love it. especially offensiveish spreads with leaf storm that actually pressure jellicent and can spin against teams with it. it's by far our best removal at the moment, its ability to regen / sleep powder / aroma are incredibly nice.

C to B+
our other good removal candidate. magic bounce mon that walls setters sandaconda, regirock, garbodor, ferroseed, sr mesprit is just by nature going to be amazing in a meta without much viable removal, and this is the case here. not sure how prevalent it is atm on ladder, but it's seeing substantial usage in open, and for good reason. hopefully i'm not in the minority with how high i rate this pokemon but wow is it good right now. it does unfortunately allow some pokemon such as perrserker, ribombee & scrafty in without the right filler move, and hence ur teams end up looking a lot more defensive if you use it properly, but otherwise just an amazing pokemon i rly love rn.
 
Some opinions! I'll just comment on the ones I feel strongly about.


to B
100% agree with this one, I think B is perfect for it. Scrafty check + defog + pivoting + recovery is just such nice role compression - I can't tell you how many times I've been building and get to "Oh I need removal and scrafty answer in one slot, guess I'll kms". That doesn't happen any more! Of course it's stretched pretty thin and synthesis is very annoying recovery in a tier of gigalith, but it still does what it needs to do well. Triage and Natural Cure are really cool abilities too - I've been running a set with Triage and min speed on a team that already has heal bell support, which is cool because you get slow u-turns to make cheeky greedy plays and still come in later and recover before something can hit you.

:stunfisk-galar: B- to B
Again agree with this one, I think this is better than it's been in a while. I've been playing around with phys def foul play sets and it's actually 100x better than I was expecting and answers to a bunch of physical threats - you bop the SD vallies and rock types and you have the same special bulk as spdef toge even with just max hp, so you can still cover those special threats it deals with if you have the right moves. Also makes it easier to stay in on something like Gigalith to get rocks up.

:cryogonal: to C
Agree, I've always vouched for this mon. I think people go wrong by using bulky sets with it - imo the best route for it is going offensive and abusing its speed tier and easy switches on a lot of the special meta for opportunities to spin and fire off ice beams. 95spattk is not bad at all! You go either Ice Beam + Toxic or Freeze Dry + Knock Off: both allow you to beat Jelli and irritate your checks in various ways. Yes, you don't answer to most setters 1v1, but they are crippled by getting toxic'd or knock'd. As a remover it has good longevity throughout the match, pretty abundant switches and decent offensive presence.

:glastrier: A- to like B- lol
This thing is just not good idk what to say any more! I can build weak to it and it still does nothing. It just does not have the power it needs to justify that speed tier and lack of switchins - that might seem strange to say about a base 145 attack pokemon, but Icicle Crash's middling BP means it doesn't even hit as hard as Sneasel's Triple Axel. You can't rely on it to break because Jelli exists, which you need Band to even try to get around, and good luck getting in a base 30 ice type without boots the two times you'll need to to get past a Jelli (with the correct predicts). Maybe you run something like sub sd to beat jelli and are lucky to run into one without taunt but then you still get walled by like Quag anyway (or even aggron if you're running icicle crash/crunch). I really think this thing doesn't even compare to like, Vikavolt, who is a slow breaker that isn't cockblocked by one of the best mons in the tier (run mud shot btw) and has recovery and a bunch of relevant mons that it can switch in on.

Finally my own proposal!:

:gourgeist: XL - B+

Pretty radical but sorry this thing is sooooooo good and I think for sure better than Trev.

Gourgeist-Super @ Spell Tag
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Synthesis
- Poltergeist
- Power Whip
- Shadow Sneak


With Tsareena out the way most Knock users we have left are either really weak or STAB users you don't really want to stay in on anyway, and so Spell Tag is opened up as a viable option on this. Spell Tag Poltergeist into Shadow Sneak is guaranteed to kill zard, scyther, whims - which were basically all always the emergency mid ground options to switch into gourg - and so whenever this gets a switch common teams have to play really, really carefully around it. And it gets switches sooooo easily - Regi, Giga, Ferro, Quag and Eldegoss are all completely free, especially if you have heal bell support, and you can do it across a match because synthesis. Because it's so fat you beat basically the entire meta that doesn't have a super-effective STAB 1v1: Archeops, bee, Gallade, Lycanroc etc. Shadow Sneak is also just really useful priority because basically nothing faster resists it. Power Whip does like 40 to itemless spdef Toge so a few spikes or bit of chip and it's gone. Oh and you spin block really well! The only thing that I feel holds this back is, as with Comfey, Synthesis being unreliable vs Gigalith teams, but this really does feel so good right now.

 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top