Resource SS UU Crown Tundra Viability Ranking Thread

Monky25

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
In usual fashion, here I am to make a VR post right after the update. This post contains a nomination that's been building up over the last few days, and I think I'm ready to discuss it now.

to S-
That's right, I firmly believe Salamence should rise to S-. Salamence has been one of the integral pieces of the meta since the very beginning. It has consistently kept its A+ ranking throughout all the meta shifts, and its no secrets why. The sheer splashability and usefulness of Salamence is quite insane. Salamence has been by far the best defogger we've had, being able to take on common entry hazard setters like Krookodile, cobalion, and Nidoqueen. Even now mence has been able to be reliable against rhyperior as of late by chipping it continuously with Draco Meteor over Hurricane on some sets. 3 attacks salamence is a menace, with nothing really wanting to switch into it in general multiple times. Furthermore, Dragon Dance Salamence is still a potent threat right now, taking advantage of the fall of celesteela to power through teams. Though, the rise of duskroc and aegislash does hurt it a bit. Mence even fits on stall builds as a reliable defogger and check to Pokemon like buzzwole and zarude. This leads me to another point: mence checks a LOT of the meta just with its typing and intimidate, not needing to invest in bulk. Going down the VR, this is just some stuff mence can threaten: keldeo, krookodile, amoonguss, tangrowth, zarude, kommo-o, buzzwole, gyarados, nidoking, mienshao, and Barraskewda. Now, you may ask why all this information matters to mence rising to S-. Well, what does it mean to be S rank? The ranking description states: S Rank describes Pokemon that provide dominant or multifaceted presences within the metagame. Whether it's through offensive, defensive, or supportive roles, S-ranked Pokemon perform at a top level of consistency, provide excellent utility and/or versatility, and prove key in shaping the metagame's trends and patterns. I believe Salamence fits this definition. It is incredibly consistent and provides great utility to any team it is on. Its versatility is near unmatched, only being rivaled by S rank Aegislash. Salamence can fit on any team archetype, ranging from HO to BO to Balance to Stall to Webs to Rain. Salamence has played and likely will continue to play an integral role in this metagame moving forward, and I believe it is time for Salamence to rise into the S ranks where it belongs. It doesn't have the immediate threat level nor danger of Aegislash or Keldeo, so sitting in a subrank below them along with Thundurus is more appropriate. Hope this post gave some insight as to why Salamence should be S-, and feel free to hit me up if you want me to go more in depth!

Also lets do some discussion points b/c why not :)
- hard disagree with a primarina drop. While prim has seen better days, Prim should stay A+ on the account of its RestTalk set. Specs is great and all but its not the main reason I'm using prim anymore. RestTalk provides amazing glue to so many teams, checking dangerous threats like Keldeo and Salamence while also psuedo-checking Lycanroc-D and Rhyperior. Primarina's ability to act as a Water-type resistance, Dragon immunity, fighting resist, and status absorber makes it very good in my eyes and would keep it in A+ based on this.
- though I do not disagree as much with a Prim drop I also don't believe rhyp should drop. While what was described in the discussion point is true, rhyps ability to trade with so many threats like Salamence, Lycanroc, thundurus, and aegislash still makes it dangerous. Its offensive presence combined with its defensive utility is still very potent and I would not drop it at all.
-This really comes down to this when discussing a rise: is scarf Jirachi good enough to be A? Defensive/rocker sets face a lot of competition from aegi and nihilego, so scarf is where Jirachi shines best. And yes, I do say Scarf Jirachi is good enough to be A. Annoying flinch haxes aside, Jirachi is great at being able to revenge kill a large majority of the metagame. Lycanroc, Azelf, Nihilego all drop to iron Head, and U-turn gets Jirachi out of poor matchups against Aegislash and Buzzwole, Healing wish is amazing utility, and its last slot is dangerously unpredictable, possibly being ice punch, thunder punch, or trick. Jirachi is a potent revenge killer in the meta rn and I support a rise to A rank based on this.
- as the person who first brought up the B+ rise I still think Azelf is potent enough between its pivot and nasty plot sets to set itself apart from the B rank and move up to B+.
- thought it should drop to B+ last time and still support a drop
 
VR UPDATE OML!!! FIRST D TIER IN A FAT TIME OML!!! Now to the discussion points as this is a pretty interesting slate.

AGREE
:mimikyu: - Mimikyu is honestly worth a spot on the vr, after the departure of scizor this mon already gets a million times better and that alone could be the explanation, but this thing also has some very unique traits in its ability always letting it setup at least once and its very good speed tier outpacing staples like Krookodile, its typing lets it bypass the 2 most common physical walls (mence and buzz) and in webs this thing can be very scary 100% agree.

:azelf: - Azelf is good 0_0, the highest natural speed tier with the exception of regibad means that it fits perfectly on webs as a sweeper I've seen this thing many times tear through teams, as in general it also has a lack of good splashable counters. even priority isn't an instant KO on it as it isn't that frail, the pivot set is also a very good disruptor with its knock off and U-turn. it is miles above the more niche things in B as it constantly performs good.

:jirachi: - Being a steel type is very valuable, especially since aegislash isn't the end all be all and it opens up some awkward weaknesses. that's where Jirachi comes in, while it faces some competition from other rockers it also matches up beautifuly against rhyp and nihilego even krookodile gets u-turn'd and flinched, meaning that it can gets rocks consitently. it also has many options for utility in wish tect and various coverage, however where it really shines is in its scarf set revitalizing mons with HW, flinching everything and pivoting, even without investment it has some really nice defensive utility checking some really scary threats,it is a very good and splahable mon.

:rhyperior: - I was never a fan of A tier Rhyperior and I do feel like a drop is justified, being a bulky ground is very good and while it can trade with many things in the tier that doesn't sound very A tier from me, as a lot of the times it can only handle one of mence, lycandog or thundy meaning that you kind of always need a secondary check for them, not being self sufficient is what makes it for me. even if Nihilego takes like 40% from draco at leats it inmediatly threatens it back, while rhyp's speed tier makes it much more vulnerable thanks to its speed tier.

:slowbro-galar: - I am not very adamant for a drop and if it stays in the A rank is also fine especially because the AV set is very good, but even that set isn't a very solid check against Keldeo or Primarina because it gets blasted by their water stab and its general low damage output unless hitting super effectively is honestly disappointing, meaning that if lacking Ice Beam mence can beat it one on one. CM sets have also taken a back foot as even if theoretically they can cripple everything with status glowbro is still relying on chance and it needs plenty support to pull of sweeps making some team compositions with it not very flexible imo.

DISAGREE
:conkeldurr: - Honestly I don't see what has changed or in general much reason for it to drop, as the meta is actually very favorable towards the conk when top offensive threats include Lycandog and Zarude which conk hard checks even when being low thanks to priority. Even when comparing it against its main competition in buzz conk is still a valuable pick as primarina shifts more to its bulkier sets and keldeo is the specs user of choice, buzz can only run in fear against them as it doesnt even 2HKO primarina unless running poison jab and unlike conk it can't pick off a weakened keldeo or absolutely blast primarina with a nuclear Facade that KO's with minimal chip, also conk is much less prediction reliant thanks to the natural power of its coverage even if conk CC's a moltres it still does massive damage while buzzwole not only barely 2HKO's but it also has to fear a burn. Its the uncounterable mon for a reason and its immense power and priority are enough for it to stay in B, a two subrank difference between conk and buzz is honestly very fair.

:primarina: - I also am very against a Primarina drop with the same reasoning that Monky gave above, its RestTalk set is just fantastic as it can cover a great chunk of the meta by just existing, it relieves the pressure from mons like Zarude and Rhyperior from constantly having to switch into Aegislash and Salamence respectively. Its a great glue and status absorber that doesnt remain passive with its naturally high SpAtk stat. Also don't forget that specs and SubCM are still a very big threat to be accounted for.


I do not have any opinions on the other two mons presented, as I have barely used them. They both have some incredibly good traits as they can stand up against our S-tiers which that alone makes them pretty cash money on teams but their general lack of utility and some awkward traits they have has me split, also as i already said I do not have much experience with them.
 

KM

slayification
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
:Guzzlord: from C to UR: Dragalge and Guzzlord haven’t received meaningful usage lately despite having theoretical niches, justifying an unranking given how costly the Dragon-type slot can often be. Slurpuff is an extremely predictable Pokemon that has fallen out of favor in comparison to another webs setter in Ribombee, which has more options and a better Speed tier that both improve its consistency.
haha funny km guzz stan here to argue for another unviable aha ok anyway

on a serious note, this drop is really disheartening to me, and the justification used doesn't really line up at all with what's happened in this thread and in the tier as a whole. let's take a look at the claims used to derank it.

1. Guzzlord hasn't received meaningful usage lately.

This is a little bit vague, so I'm not sure whether this is referring to overall usage, tour usage, discussion, or something else. Let's look at all of those.

via the smogon stats, guzzlord had
.15% usage in April (pre me nominating it)
.45% usage in May (when I nominated it)
~1.5% usage in June (most recent available stats)

this seems to paint a very different picture than a niche pick that had a brief moment and then fell out of favor. Guzzlord is actively still very much being used more than it ever has before -- despite only being ranked for a little over a month, it already has gained more usage than other ranked mons like Ditto, Diancie, Gastrodon, Noivern, Toxtricity, Mantine, Milotic and others.

Let's talk about tour usage next. Guzzlord definitely hasn't been in every single tour game imaginable but we also... literally don't have any current Gen 8 SS UU tours. The most recent one was UULT, where Guzzlord WAS featured in playoffs (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1366468673). It's also cropped up in other recent tours -- as a snake who was in the discords of both UUFPL final teams I can confirm they were both at least considering bringing it, it's shown up a few times in the Low Budget Tour, was used for a few people to get reqs for UULT, etc.

Finally, let's talk about discussion. To my memory, there've been at least 4 (maybe more?) recent or semi-recent posts in this thread advocating or agreeing with a RAISE to Guzzlord's viability to reflect its solidified and proven niche in the metagame. On the other side, there have been 0 posts advocating for it to be deranked. Therefore, this is clearly neither a case of "no one thinks it should be ranked in the VR thread" nor a case of "no one has cared about it being in the VR since it was first ranked".

2. Guzzlord's niche is theoretical.

I touched on this a little above, so I won't go too in depth, but Guzzlord has been ranked, used, tested, and tried for about two months now. It's not theoretical, it's pretty confirmed what it does. It counters the vast majority of Aegislash sets, checks special attackers like Nihilego, Nidoking, Regieleki, Thundurus, etc, absorbs sleep, never dies, knocks and phazes everything, etc.

The only reason Guzzlord's niche would be theoretical would be if you've never tried playing it -- which I suspect most of the VR council hasn't.

I don't say that as an indictment -- you're all busy and you're not expected to run 50 test games with every c mon someone nominates. But when multiple people ARE using the mon, reporting great results with it, and then posting those results TO THE VIABILITY RANKINGS THREAD pushing for it to be ranked higher, it seems like a huge slap in the face to make a vote based on no experience with playing with the mon and ignore posts from those who have, and then cite a "theoretical niche" that fully exists in practice.

3. Guzzlord competes too much for a "dragon slot"

This one's especially weird to me because nothing has changed since being ranked with regards to the dragons in UU, and the idea of a mandatory "dragon slot" on every team that Guzzlord is competing for really does not track at all with my experience building in or playing this tier. I don't think i've ever heard anyone ask "which dragon should I run for this team???" or "this team sucks the dragon slot isn't filled" etc... and truthfully I don't think there's even much that precludes you from running Guzzlord + Zygarde on the same team or whatever if you really wanted to.




anyways I could go into a whole section on how deranking Guzzlord in the same update that raises Aegislash to S and acknowledges the rise of rain (heavily disrupted by Guzz) makes no sense, but I don't really see a reason to. It seems like people's posts in the past detailing their experience using it haven't really been valued or recognized, so I don't have too much hope this will either. In general though, it's super disheartening as a contributor to see something that you helped discover and popularize deranked despite it tripling in usage every month, getting relevant tour play, generating discussion on the forums, and being benefitted by recent shifts, and I'd like to encourage VR Council members in the future to either Play With The Pokemon You're Voting On or Listen To The People Posting In The Thread.
 

pokemonisfun

pia! Get into UU! http://spo.ink/pia1
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
haha funny km guzz stan here to argue for another unviable aha ok anyway

on a serious note, this drop is really disheartening to me, and the justification used doesn't really line up at all with what's happened in this thread and in the tier as a whole. let's take a look at the claims used to derank it.

1. Guzzlord hasn't received meaningful usage lately.

This is a little bit vague, so I'm not sure whether this is referring to overall usage, tour usage, discussion, or something else. Let's look at all of those.

via the smogon stats, guzzlord had
.15% usage in April (pre me nominating it)
.45% usage in May (when I nominated it)
~1.5% usage in June (most recent available stats)

this seems to paint a very different picture than a niche pick that had a brief moment and then fell out of favor. Guzzlord is actively still very much being used more than it ever has before -- despite only being ranked for a little over a month, it already has gained more usage than other ranked mons like Ditto, Diancie, Gastrodon, Noivern, Toxtricity, Mantine, Milotic and others.

Let's talk about tour usage next. Guzzlord definitely hasn't been in every single tour game imaginable but we also... literally don't have any current Gen 8 SS UU tours. The most recent one was UULT, where Guzzlord WAS featured in playoffs (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1366468673). It's also cropped up in other recent tours -- as a snake who was in the discords of both UUFPL final teams I can confirm they were both at least considering bringing it, it's shown up a few times in the Low Budget Tour, was used for a few people to get reqs for UULT, etc.

Finally, let's talk about discussion. To my memory, there've been at least 4 (maybe more?) recent or semi-recent posts in this thread advocating or agreeing with a RAISE to Guzzlord's viability to reflect its solidified and proven niche in the metagame. On the other side, there have been 0 posts advocating for it to be deranked. Therefore, this is clearly neither a case of "no one thinks it should be ranked in the VR thread" nor a case of "no one has cared about it being in the VR since it was first ranked".

2. Guzzlord's niche is theoretical.

I touched on this a little above, so I won't go too in depth, but Guzzlord has been ranked, used, tested, and tried for about two months now. It's not theoretical, it's pretty confirmed what it does. It counters the vast majority of Aegislash sets, checks special attackers like Nihilego, Nidoking, Regieleki, Thundurus, etc, absorbs sleep, never dies, knocks and phazes everything, etc.

The only reason Guzzlord's niche would be theoretical would be if you've never tried playing it -- which I suspect most of the VR council hasn't.

I don't say that as an indictment -- you're all busy and you're not expected to run 50 test games with every c mon someone nominates. But when multiple people ARE using the mon, reporting great results with it, and then posting those results TO THE VIABILITY RANKINGS THREAD pushing for it to be ranked higher, it seems like a huge slap in the face to make a vote based on no experience with playing with the mon and ignore posts from those who have, and then cite a "theoretical niche" that fully exists in practice.

3. Guzzlord competes too much for a "dragon slot"

This one's especially weird to me because nothing has changed since being ranked with regards to the dragons in UU, and the idea of a mandatory "dragon slot" on every team that Guzzlord is competing for really does not track at all with my experience building in or playing this tier. I don't think i've ever heard anyone ask "which dragon should I run for this team???" or "this team sucks the dragon slot isn't filled" etc... and truthfully I don't think there's even much that precludes you from running Guzzlord + Zygarde on the same team or whatever if you really wanted to.




anyways I could go into a whole section on how deranking Guzzlord in the same update that raises Aegislash to S and acknowledges the rise of rain (heavily disrupted by Guzz) makes no sense, but I don't really see a reason to. It seems like people's posts in the past detailing their experience using it haven't really been valued or recognized, so I don't have too much hope this will either. In general though, it's super disheartening as a contributor to see something that you helped discover and popularize deranked despite it tripling in usage every month, getting relevant tour play, generating discussion on the forums, and being benefitted by recent shifts, and I'd like to encourage VR Council members in the future to either Play With The Pokemon You're Voting On or Listen To The People Posting In The Thread.

I support this.

A few teams to make it even less theoretical:

https://pokepast.es/6f3043b65800bfb2 (used this team to maintain #1 on the ladder by 100+ points and beat theflawlesswin in UULT playoffs, with a Rotom-H version)

https://pokepast.es/7afc87dd6ac4f797 (laddered with this last month and gave to my UUFPL teammate in finals but they don't listen to me and didn't use it, originally had Defog Mew over Rotom-W)

The point here is that this Pokemon fits on both balance and stall, and perhaps teams that can be categorized as bulky offense especially if Spikes are used.

Credits: Avarice and KM both for innovating this set
 
making a few noms really quick
:venusaur: :torkoal:
C -> C-/UR
use rain lmao
:quagsire:
B- -> C+
the thing needs grasses gone, and is pretty dang outclassed by gastro
:chansey:
A- -> B+.
Not a huge fan of the rain going everywhere, loves to wall kingdra but gets blasted to timbuckto by keldeo, hates loosing eviolite because of its horrible physical defense, and aeigslash being #1 isn't exactly helpful to chansey.
:Klefki:
C -> C-
no more light clay, no more screens. roto-wash is solid in this tier and moltres isn't as good but is solid defogger nonetheless, so spikes shouldn't overexcite you.
:moltres: :moltres-galar:
A- -> B+/B
:moltres: hates rain being everywhere, while :moltres-galar: doesn't like the light clay ban
:nihilego:
A -> A+
OR
:krookodile: A+ -> A
I don't think krook is better than nihilego rn, I'd say they are pretty even for stealth rockers. Nihilego is much better offensivley but krook has intimidate and knock which is nice.
:incineroar:
C+ -> C/UR
Krookidile is better for a variety of reasons, mainly because of stealth rock and loads more speed. salamence is also better as an intimidate mon thanks to high speed, ddance, and reliable recovery.
 
Howdy y'all, StarFalcon555 here to share my thoughts on the discussion slate and some of the nominations that have already been made. Going to be taking a page out of TotomonGang's book and split my thoughts into three sections: Agree, Disagree, and Unsure. :)

AGREE

:jirachi: A- to A: Jirachi is just so dang versatile right now. It's a rocker, a pivot, a speed control method, and a cleric all in one, and that's just the Choice Scarf set. It's probably the best method of role compression we have right now, deals with many tier staples (Lycanroc-D, Keldeo, Krookodile, etc.), and you overall just can't go wrong with putting one on your team.

:azelf: B to B+: TBH I'm surprised Azelf didn't rise in the previous slate seeing how many people (myself included) wanted it to. But anyways, what is there to say about Azelf that hasn't already been said? Incredibly good Speed tier, amazing offensive stats plus a boosting move, coverage that demolishes the entire tier bar Chansey and maybe Umbreon after a boost... Azelf has come a long way from February, where it was ranked C+ and on the verge of falling into RU. It's one of the tier's best sweepers, and it definitely deserves a rise.

:conkeldurr: B to B-: This one has been a long time coming. In a tier loaded with Fighting types, Conkeldurr sits at the bottom of the barrel. Yeah, I know, funny Guts-boosted Mach Punch off of a base 140 Attack go brrr, but that's literally the only thing Conk can do. It's a one-trick pony, and it isn't even a good one-trick pony. Its horrible Speed tier, Flame Orb resulting in constant chip damage, low special bulk, and weaknesses to common Pokemon like Salamence, Thundurus, Primarina, and Hatterene means that it gets taken down or forced out very easily. Sure, it revenge kills Lycanroc-D and Zarude with priority, but so can Azumarill and Mamoswine respectively, and those are both a lot better than Conk. There are just so many better options for both Fighting types and priority users in the tier.

:salamence: A+ to S-: I'm not going to go too much in depth about this because Monky25's reasoning was excellent, but I agree with this nomination 100%. Salamence has long been considered to be at the top of the A+ rank, and I think it's about time to acknowledge just how good it is and promote it to S-.

:guzzlord: Rerank: Again, I'm not going to go too in-depth about this because KM summed it up beautifully, but I just want to say go look at Victim of the Week and check out the past few rounds. Guzzlord has been submitted as a counter to each victim almost every week. If that doesn't prove that Guzzlord has a niche, I don't know what does.

DISAGREE

:primarina: A+ to A: Primarina may be outclassed by Keldeo as a Water-type wallbreaker now, but it's gotten even better as a bulky glue mon. Being able to deal with Salamence and Keldeo in one slot is really important right now, and being able to help deal with mons like Lycanroc-D, Rhyperior, and Krookodile is just icing on the cake. Sure, it struggles a lot with Aegislash and that sucks, but its positives far outweigh its negatives.

:rhyperior: A to A-: I admit that I may have been getting ahead of myself by nominating Rhyperior for a rise last slate, and looking back I definitely think that it's actually not A+ material. But it also doesn't deserve to drop. Rhyperior counters four of what many people consider to be the top five Pokemon in the tier (Aegislash, Lycanroc-D, Thundurus, and Salamence), as well as many other great Pokemon like Nihilego and Moltres. The defensive utility it provides it just too important for it to drop.

:klefki: C+ to C-: I may be a tad bit biased because I wrote a whole-ass analysis on Klefki, but I digress. The bit about the Light Clay ban making Klefki worse is just plain wrong, because even when Light Clay was in the tier, Klefki was never used as a screens setter. It was always used as a Spikes setter and a status spreader. And with Mew being gone, Spikes, Klefki becomes even better in what it does. Its biggest counter, Rotom-H, is also going through a decline, which relieves pressure on Klefki. It isn't as good of a Spikes setter as Roserade, which can deal with other strong Klefki counters like Rotom-W and Hatterene, but it's still a good alternative. Klefki is fine right where it is.

UNSURE

:slowbro-galar: A to A-: I'm not really sure what to think of Glowbro right now. On one hand, Aegislash becoming better and the increase in Dark types to deal with Aegislash better really sucks for it and makes it harder to get in, CM sets face strong competition from Azelf as a Psychic type setup sweeper, and it struggles to hit very hard if it's not a CM set. On the other hand, Assault Vest is still a really solid set, Regenerator is one of the best abilities in the game for a reason, and the large amounts of Fighting, Poison, and Fairy types in the tier (such as Mienshao, Kommo-o, Azumarill, and Tentacruel) means that its typing is still really solid. QCQD sets are also still dumb as fuck, but that's more because Quick Claw as an item is really dumb and uncompetitive and we should ban it along with King's Rock, BrightPowder, and other RNG-based items, but that's a topic for the main discussion thread. Right now, I'm leaning towards keeping Glowbro in A, but it's definitely one of, if not the worst mon in the A rank. I might play around with AV Glowbro for a bit and then come back and revise my opinion.

That's all for right now, but I am going to be making another post sometime within the next few days with my personal nominations, so look out for that! :)
 
Last edited:
A -> A-: I agree on this, it is insanely easy to pressure and very hard to force progress against any team that can apply pressure, it can be dealt with via grass types, statused via sleep, and burn, knock'ed off and crippled by losing its item since it its main source recovery, and inability to switch in on many top threats such as nihilego cuz it can spam power gem or knock off or even a meteor beam into thunderbolt which is a KO, buzzwole, lycanroc-d, aegislash especially with rocks up, and rotom appliances.

1626895233368.png
UR -> C

It is a very good Hazard stacking pokemon on rain since it can provide dual hazards, something that is very rare to find, can help vs rotom-wash, and has some great resistances when backed up by rain to weaken its fire weakness. IT can disrupt via knock off to make its hazards have a more meaningful impact and spam leech seed to chip down pokemon. It is very reliant on eviolite since its bulk is not the best sitting at 44/91/86 and rain is not the most dominant
 

KM

slayification
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
got so focused on the guzz train i forgot to actually respond to discussion points so here's that





Primarina A+ to A: strong disagree this is maybe still s- material lol

shoutouts to Juno for showing / reminding me of this set, but the CM Rest Snore prim set is unironically broken and wins on preview vs at least 70% of teams in this meta.

Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Voice
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 108 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Snore
- Rest
- Calm Mind

the only things that really offensively check it are zarude and bulu, so you just need to pair it with something like molt or rocky helm amoong or buzz and you win eventually. it's basically a cm primarina that beats chansey and toxic aegi, it autowins against most rains, and it's in general just super hard to play around until you know the set for sure, at which point it's usually too far gone.

other prims are obviously still great too, but once this set picks up in popularity the unpredictability will boost its viability in general -- if amoong/chansey is no longer a safe scouting switch, it gets harder to deal with all sets, etc.



Rhyperior A to A-: agree

it doesn't feel like rhyp fits into as many structures as it used to, and trends like rotomw>rotomh really hurt its viability.


Galarian Slowbro A to A-: disagree

av is still an excellent set, and cm should be running kasib flame at this point so aegi really isn't the crushing problem it's being presented as. av has a bit more flexibility in the moves it can run too, I don't think dropping flamethrower for scald is bad post-scizor personally.



Jirachi A- to A: disagree

i definitely find myself ending up with jirachi structures in building more than i used to, but that doesn't mean i like it, and I still don't think it's that good. there's still a bunch of super hostile forces in the meta that punish it, and it feels like dead weight a lot of the time.



Azelf B to B+: no opinion

i guess it's scary but it still feels pretty mid imo



Gastrodon B to B+: disagree

great rain counter but i personally hate gastro structures as a whole -- owning rotom wash and rain is nice but it just feels like you switch it in and then do nothing for a few turns



Conkeldurr B to B-: agree

despite being ostensibly a great breaker conk also hates aegi being everywhere bc it's p much forced to click knock, dropping its attack and letting things like amoong become counters instead of checks. it's pretty easy to just stall it out and let it kill itself most times, and it no longer feels like you need a hard answer to avoid losing your team.



Mimikyu UR to C/C+: doubtful

i get the theory but i'm not sure i'm 100% convinced in practice yet. mimikyu still just like.... kills itself to recoil and can't break through most of the tier. if someone builds a great mimikyu team i'd recognize it but i haven't seen one yet.



now for a few off-slate noms


:ss/zygarde-10%: -> A-

even with its recent rise, i don't think zygarde's place in the meta reflects just how good it is right now. i've been really enjoying structures with zygarde and a defensive rock type like diancie (shoutouts pokemonisfun ) that let you retain the defensive utility of a ground-type with a more offensive approach. teams not running defensive tang or buzz are just actively threatened by zygarde, and the loss of scizor helped out out a ton -- not only is it harder to revenge kill it with other priority users (lycan found dead in a ditch), it also enables the diancie / zygarde structure even further. also, zarude structures get super punished because superpower / smack easily OHKOs -- stop running toxic all the time x
 

Lily

oops
is a Tutoris a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
UU Leader
shoutouts to Juno for showing / reminding me of this set, but the CM Rest Snore prim set is unironically broken and wins on preview vs at least 70% of teams in this meta.
Juno i can infract you for plagiarism you know

:ss/primarina:
Primarina A+ -> A
Maybe I'm playing a different tier lol but I think Prim is still top 10?? And in fact it amazes me that we're even considering dropping it - out of the top 4 offensive threats in the tier atm (Aegislash, Keldeo, Thundurus, Lycanroc) Prim is an incredibly solid check to standard Aegislash and Keldeo, obv shit against Thund but it can honestly be really good against Lycan if you go max def since Stone Edge is not common anymore and it can handle repeated Psyfangs fairly well (altho you sacrifice some other mus by doing this ofc but it's perfectly acceptable on many teams, e.g. av tang + prim) and I just find that its defensive capabilities are just so, so good rn. I can get behind the drop to A+ given most offensive sets have fallen off a cliff as they should but this mon should not be dropping any further, it is such an important glue against so much of the meta.

:ss/rhyperior:
Rhyperior A -> A-
Yea Rhyp's seen better days for sure. I think it's one of those mons that'll always be quietly good and that hasn't changed, it's still great!! it's Rhyp after all but like. The influx of rain cores has not only created a shitload of strong Water types that Rhyp can't deal with, but also Grass types to check them that Rhyp can't deal with, and the stuff Rhyp was really good against like Rotom-H, Moltres etc is falling off. It's stlil good at getting rocks up, effective-ish Thundy check, solid into no-Knot Nihi but it does get knocked so gg. Ppl should try offensive too, surprisingly difficult to switch into, sub is pretty cool on it since it does still force a lot out. But yeah it should drop.

:ss/slowbro-galar:
Slowbro-Galar A -> A-
Ok I cannot understand this one. AV Glowbro is far and away one of the most reliable defensive pivots in the tier and it does this without sacrificing offense at all - it handles the monumental tasks of scouting Specs Keldeo, walling Nihilego to death, highkey being an Aegislash switchin lol and providing an excellent pivot into Grasses not named Zarude that are normally so hard for offense to deal with. CM is a bit too slow paced in this meta altho I think it is a great mon on balance/stall still. The drop to A was fine, it does not need to go further.

:ss/jirachi:
Jirachi A- -> A
Yes!!! I've been saying for so long that Jirachi is really good. Scarf has finally come into its own as a phenomenal utility mon on offense that provides an extremely solid Lycanroc revenge killer (until they start running broken Sucker Punch...) and check to stuff like Nihilego too, but it's mostly Healing Wish for me. There are some mons in this tier that are just immensely difficult to keep down for various reasons; Aegislash never dies, a well-played Lycanroc only dies to recoil, Prim is just a general fat behemoth etc. and the potential to use those mons to trade with their checks and then bring them back to full is just gamebreaking. Jirachi having access to this move, checking key threats AND having the ability to bullshit its way to any win makes it a solid A rank in my eyes, particularly in this Scizorless metagame where truly solid Steels are a challenge to come by.

These next few will be much quicker bc I haven't seen them much at all:

:ss/azelf:
Azelf B -> B+
I guess? I understand people simp for this mon insanely hard so it must have some good qualities but I don't really see it. It's annoying to deal with but it often feels like it just falls flat and its good sets are so uncommon that it's hard to get a read on how good it actually is. I'm not really opposed but it's hard to support.

:ss/gastrodon:
Gastrodon B -> B+
Ehh I don't see it. I get Gastro's a whole case of "look guys rain good!!!" and it's good against rain but like, is it? It has to deal with the perpetual issue of being 2HKOd by bigger rain threats (Keldeo, Skewda, Heliolisk, Azu, Mence, Seismi) if it comes in on a non-water move and in general if I'm desperate for a defensive Water immunity I'd just go with Mantine or Jellicent since they don't suck as much. Seismitoad also gives it competition and is significantly better in general.

:ss/conkeldurr:
Conkeldurr B -> B-
Yes please drop it even lower, C+ for sure, Conk sucks ass and is outclassed as a Fighting breaker by a mon that isn't even a Fighting type. Mach Punch is cool but the only relevant targets are Zarude and Lycanroc really and that's not enough to keep a position in the B ranks when this mon is so outclassed by Keldeo, Lycanroc, Kommo-o and particularly Buzzwole.

:ss/mimikyu:
Mimikyu UR -> C/C+
Has anyone seen or used this mon lately? I haven't, I don't really get what the point of it is. If there are replays of it actually doing anything then I'd be happy to change my mind of course since I'm genuinely just unsure and not opposing this but please remember that unranked nominations need replays to go alongside them!!

A few other notes:

:ss/guzzlord:
This never should've been unranked and I'm not sure why it was in the first place, blunder on our part for sure but I know I voted to keep it ranked. It's not like, good, but it sees enough usage and has a genuinely notable niche over something like GMolt as a fat Dark type because of its resistances to stuff like Water (not particularly helpful but it can be useful against Choiced ones) and Electric (big!!!) as well as its ability to force guaranteed progress no matter what, even if that's just knocking the Prim and then doing nothing for the rest of the game beyond switching into the Aegi - that's enough to maintain a niche.

:ss/metagross:
Metagross should be ranked somewhere, it has quite a few effective sets rn but the main one I've been using is a variation of ORAS Demongross:

Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 220 SpD / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Protect

In an effort to find Steels that aren't Scizor I came across this and it felt like a better fit than Jirachi thanks to Earthquake and its great Attack making it a lot less passive with this type of set. Metagross is a solid check to the likes of Nihilego, Hatterene and general special attackers tbh just because of how bulky it is and it's not passive so it can lay the hurt on things in return, a physdef spread might be better but this was my Draco switchin so lol. I originally just threw it on as a meme on a team that made 0 sense but it honestly performed quite well overall and I was pleasantly surprised by it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1379722617-x5u9uhhc82xinq2xz525qt1ithlmttzpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1379713250

I didn't save a whole lot of replays from laddering but it's honestly a huge annoyance against a lot of teams and I think it deserves a spot on the VR. Other sets like CB and Agility are possibilities and maybe some coverage is better over toxtect but I love the longevity this provided. Give it a shot!!

And finally:

:ss/noivern:
B- -> B+

no way... lily nomming noivern up...

Cannot believe this has dropped so far at this point, Noivern is in a fantastic spot atm, better than it has been in a long time. The necessity of Salamence as a Scizor check has dropped significantly and that frees up the possibility of running Noivern quite a bit - it's an absolute nightmare for offense to deal with and it can clean up games later on with ease. Yes it has 97 spa I'm aware of this but Draco Meteor is a Strong Attack:tm: and it still hits plenty hard for something so fast.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1379717211-f3lb2abso9nm4pipi4n0h37obxv5lh4pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1379722617-x5u9uhhc82xinq2xz525qt1ithlmttzpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1379713250

In the first replay, Noivern keeps a Zarude and Conkeldurr in check while nabbing 4 KOs despite the presence of what you would assume is a solid check (spdef Wish Jirachi) thanks to some good predictions on my end and a blunder from my opponent.

In the second replay, it once again KOs 4 Pokemon quite easily thanks to its great coverage and yes I was a lucky dog who dodged a Steela's Air Slash with my Kommo-o but shut up. It's not easy for teams like this to switch into it at all.

In the third replay I face rain and surprise surprise, it cleans up a bunch of easy KOs after some small chip on a few ons and would've swept my opponent had they not forfeited.

So for any doubters, here are some reasons why you should use it:

1) Rain matchup
It shouldn't really come as a surprise that a fast Water resist has an all-round solid Rain matchup. With Barraskewda often dropping Ice Fang and Keldeo being slower, Noivern is often able to KO one or both of them in exchange for most of its HP, but the kicker is that it can Roost for free on Pelipper to continuously be a threat. Fitting bulky Steels on rain isn't the easiest thing to do and most of the ones that people on ladder seem to be using (bulkless Jirachi, Ferroseed??) can be peppered easily enough by Flamethrower (tho Steela rain is a big nightmare). So in general it does quite well here.

2) Revenge killing capabilities
There exists a common sentiment among a lot of UU players right now: our scarfers suck. Scarf Krook has fallen off a cliff because of how good Lefties is and it being so easy to wall anyway, Jirachi is fine but it fails to revenge kill key threats like Thundurus and Keldeo, Mienshao is pretty much the only decent scarfer that doesn't cripple itself by running the item. This is why Noivern is good - it's pretty much the fastest mon in the tier outside of some rare stuff (Ribombee and Jolly Skewda) and it packs the biggest punch of them too. It can easily revenge kill the likes of Thundurus, Keldeo, unboosted Salamence (like after a Moxie boost but not DD'd up), Zarude, Kommo-o, etc and isn't too passive into stuff like Grass-types thanks to Flamethrower doing a nice chunk.

3) Positioning!!
Salamence does not learn U-turn. Yes, U-turn is a crutch or whatever, but you cannot deny its effectiveness when dealing with Pokemon that are weak to it like Zarude even off Noivern's crappy attack stat. It enables you to get in threats like Nidoking or your own Zarude in for free on the likes of Primarina or Hatterene, or your Rotom/Keldeo on the Celesteela/Nihilego or whatever. This adds a lot of depth to its game and I don't really need to tell you why U-turn is good lol.

I am not doing it justice here but I assure you this thing is super super good and has been freed up significantly after the most recent tier shifts. Please give it a try, I don't think it'll disappoint you.

I wasn't gonna include this but I will for fun: here's it owning mono ice + Sigilyph?? lol

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1379719480

To end this off, general stuff I agree w/: Zygarde rise (but to B+ not A-, it's good but not that good), Azumarill rise (BIG ass threat all the time but maybe A+ is overselling idk, I'd wanna see more opinions), Lycanroc rise (I think it's the best speed control in the tier even after my above paragraph on why Noivern is God's gift to this hell of an earth) and a HUGE Pelipper rise as well as maybe some other rain goons since, although I don't think rain is the best playstyle in the tier, it's definitely up there.

Ty for reading o/
 

Monky25

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
some quick thoughts

- wanted to make this nomination for a while but kingdra should drop a sub rank as of now. I talked about this with QC about a week ago when giving kingdra an analysis, and we quickly came to a consensus that there are far better options to run on rain like keldeo, mence, or even barraskewda that would take up kindgra's slot on a balance or BO rain team. The only item worth running is LO and it kills itself basically. B was def an overestimate so a drop to B- seems fair due to the competition it faces for a team slot.
-also on the topic of rain, I feel Gardevoir could probably drop back down to B-. I get WHY this mon rose but its always seemed like an on paper mon to me and was a response to the "OMG rain good" phase that happened. I just feel the opportunity cost running this over another fairy like prim who offers defensive utility or a psychic like necrozma that is very dangerous to face makes gardevoir hard to justify. I've also never seen this mon for something that's in the B rank. I'm def open to changing my mind seeing replays of it or it being shown in the upcoming WCOP but until then I think it should drop.
- continuing the rain talk even more I think pelipper should rise to demonstrate the success of the archetype. Rain BO and balance teams have taken off lately as arguably the best playstyle to use rain on, usurping the common rain HO that ran around at the beginning. Nothing more to say, rain good= pelipper rise and it should def be A rank to show the consistency and viability of rain in the meta
- these two should drop down from A- to B+. The former is much more explainable, nidoking is pretty hard to fit on a team. You're giving up the valuable ground or poison slot for a mon that provides little defensive utility compared to its competition krookodile and nihilego. Its very slow and frail and requires a lot of team support to work despite it being able to 2HKO the entire tier. I liken this mon to Mamoswine personally, dangerous wallbreakers but horrible defensive utility, so it should def be in B+ with it since I see them having equal viability. As for Rotom-H, the opportunity cost to not running Rotom-W is very big right now. The washer has a great MU against the common rain archetype and threats like Lycanroc-D even if it is not the most reliable answer to it. Rotom-H doesn't beat much of the top threats, and those it does do decent against (aegi, tang, amoong) can still cripple it with knock off or status. I just see Rotom-W as far better in the meta right now, with other Pokemon like Salamence essentially checking the stuff Rotom-H wants to beat but better. Its not good enough to be even A- and should drop to B+ as well.
- ignored these discussion points in my first post but to quickly respond: glowbro should stay A, AV is pretty great and even though CM is less consistent with aegi here it can still 6-0 unprepared teams with ease. Gastro should stay B, like Lily said it wants to check too much on both attacking ends and often struggles to do so. Conk should drop to B-, very hard to build around and way too much competition from buzzwole and keldeo. Mimikyu I get in theory but I've never seen it so I'm indifferent on it being ranked. replays would def help for those wanting it to get ranked.
- lastly, for previously made nominations noivern and zydog should rise to B and B+ respectively. The former has plenty of great traits like natural speed control, keldeo check, and pivoting support. It should've never dropped to begin with. Zydog is a pretty dangerous wallbreaker and is way better than all of B so rise it. Lycan should stay A+, it gets worn down way to quickly and has negative defensive utility. If it doesn't KO something in a hit it will just get killed back easily. It also has to rely on stone miss for amoong, prim, and even mence honestly. Not consistent enough to be S. Azu is dangerous but it doesn't compare to all the threats in A+ so A is fine. Rank metagross, demongross is cool and unique enough from aegi. Rerank guzzlord for the reasons outlined in previous posts.
 
-also on the topic of rain, I feel Gardevoir could probably drop back down to B-. I get WHY this mon rose but its always seemed like an on paper mon to me and was a response to the "OMG rain good" phase that happened. I just feel the opportunity cost running this over another fairy like prim who offers defensive utility or a psychic like necrozma that is very dangerous to face makes gardevoir hard to justify. I've also never seen this mon for something that's in the B rank. I'm def open to changing my mind seeing replays of it or it being shown in the upcoming WCOP but until then I think it should drop.
Hard disagree with this nomination. I have been spamming Gardevoir for the past several days and am not disappointed. Although Gardevoir does not have enough bulk to run CM sets, it functions well as a revenge-killer. Running a Choice Scarf with a Modest nature allows it to outspeed and hit the entire unboosted metagame hard with a Speed stat of 388. Its ability, Trace, is actually great in copying the opponent's ability and using it to your advantage, making it quite an anti-meta mon. I will not provide a laundry list of useful abilities that Gardevoir can copy since you can view them in the teambuilder yourself, nor will I provide replays of it cleaning up games since that is what a Scarfer should do. However, I do have a replay that reasonably highlights the power of Trace well.

vs Mustardmansreturn
  • Firstly, excuse me for being down 3-6 at turn 16 due to me playing like jackshit initially, and had I got poisoned by Tangrowth later in the game I would have definitely lost.
  • Turn 17: Gardevoir traces Water Absorb and thus always able to force a switch since Mantine only runs Scald.
  • Turn 19: Guzzlord knocks off her Scarf, which is good since Scarf is useless against stall.
  • Turn 44: Gardevoir hards into Tangrowth to trace Regenerator, which is highly discouraged since Tangrowth commonly runs Sludge Bomb, but I was already desperate then.
  • Turn 58: Gardevoir finally traces Beast Boost. Bluffing a non-Thunderbolt Gardevoir earlier helps in defeating Mantine and thereby claiming the required Sp. Atk boost to sweep the game thereafter.
:pelipper: I also agree with the general sentiment of Pelipper's rise. The standard support set is good but Choice Specs Pelipper is such a fantastic wallbreaker. Nothing feels better than KO-ing an Amoonguss with Hurricane, or just mindlessly spamming Weather Ball to almost 3HKO an Assault Vest Tangrowth as shown in this battle here.
 

pokemonisfun

pia! Get into UU! http://spo.ink/pia1
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Thoughts on discussion points bolded:

Current Discussion Slate



Primarina A+ to A: It feels like Primarina’s usage has lowered a bit as Water-type breakers like Keldeo and Azumarill have recently taken up a larger spotlight, and steady checks like Chansey/Amoonguss/Tentacruel all rising limits its breaking opportunities more. However, it can still be an extremely hard breaker to pivot around, while RestTalk and CM sets still have immense defensive merit with Keldeo in the tier, making its ranking a tricky thing to figure out. At this point I agree with Lilburr and Juno, Calm Mind Rest Snore is an excellent set and beats two of the "counters" that Hilomilo listed (Chansey, Amoonguss) so yeah disagree with el droppo. It can even break some stalls given the chance as I did while defending my top ladder rank here.



Rhyperior A to A-: Rhyperior is one of the better Ground-types available, but currently faces fair competition from other Stealth Rock setters in Krookodile and Nihilego. Its slowness can sacrifice momentum at times, while it also is quite prone to being worn down by Pokemon like Salamence and Aegislash. However, it can trade with Lycanroc while checking foes like non-Grass Knot Nihilego and both Moltres variants, which still gives it pretty solid defensive value. Not sure this point does it justice, it counters Nihilego and Moltres, not checking them. I guess it gets worn down by Salamence and Aegislash but it also beats their top sets 1v1. Ambivalent on the drop as I lack experience but would like to see different reasoning.



Galarian Slowbro A to A-: Galarian Slowbro has become quite adjusted to in recent times, no longer posing nearly the same threat level it once did. Aegislash being a force of the metagame is particularly burdensome with it, though other means of overwhelming it also seem more common now than before. AV has an argument to be its better set currently, though the VR team isn’t so sure that’s enough for Glowbro to reside in A anymore. Many still see it as one of the bigger teambuilding headaches around, though. Calm Mind and AV Slowbro should be able to beat Aegislash if Aegislash tries to counter. Only Specs Aegislash has a chance to OHKO +1 Slowbro which is rare and not even guaranteed; Slowbro KOs back with Flamethrower. CM doesn't often run Flamethrower now but Scald does plenty and Slowbro can regenerate back.



Jirachi A- to A: Jirachi is higher up on the Steel-type food chain now with Scizor out of the picture. It’s a great scarfer with Lycanroc and Nihilego being such strong picks, though Jirachi’s stats and expansive movepool have allowed other offensive and defensive sets alike to receive fair usage. It can still struggle with occasional passiveness, though, as well as its slightly shaky matchups against foes like Aegislash, Amoonguss, and Tangrowth.
It takes some effort to realize Wish + U-Turn creates it's own team structures. It pivots, makes everything live forever with Wish, and has overall high bulk/defensive typing. It enables these extremely bulky balances but with breakers still, similar to Teleport Slowbro/Slowking for those who play gen8ou or remember from previous iterations of gen8uu. I think these balances with either Jirachi/Chansey are the best style right now. Jirachi used all of it's traits in this unofficial tournament game - crucially using it's speed to maintain momentum on Krookodile, an otherwise counter, plus it used it's bulk to softly counter Keldeo and did enough damage to an Amoonguss to allow a Zygarde sweep. Wish + U-Turn is in my view the reason it should rise to A, not Scarf.


Azelf B to B+: Azelf has become quite the realized presence in UU the past few months. Its pivoting set has really proven its staying power thanks to Azelf’s great tools for progress, awesome Speed, and firm damage output. Nasty Plot sets are also quite scary due to Azelf’s coverage. However, its frailty can still hold it back a fair bit, especially as priority users like Lycanroc and Azumarill rise, which can make it hard for its boosting sets to often find setup opportunities. Whether to rise it was a mixed decision among the VR team, which makes this a worthy discussion point. I have never used Azelf except as a suicide lead but I think NP sets are the most threatening although I understand they are advantageousagainst my favored pivot balance styles. Not sure about the pivot set; will defer to those who are experienced.



Gastrodon B to B+: Gastrodon isn’t the most mainstream pick, but has a decent amount to enjoy as a defensive Pokemon right now. Having Electric- and Water-type immunities in addition to reliable recovery is a huge asset to it, giving it the capacity to check Thundurus, Rotom-W, and many common Pokemon seen on rain builds. However, it will always be limited a bit by its lack of access to Stealth Rock, which can complicate its splashability on most builds. Would be interested to see you post your teams/sets/replays with this because there's no completely standard Gastrodon set. I use Clear Smog + STABS as Clear Smog allows it to counter standard CM Hatterene and prevents most Pokemon from using you as fodder. But I know Ice Beam and Toxic are options too. The big thing though is which defenses to invest in. I think we should be more on the same page before throwing this out as a point.



Conkeldurr B to B-: Conkeldurr has been in a weird place for a good while now. It’s a menacing breaking presence in its own right, though its poor Speed also allows it to be overwhelmed fairly quickly alongside the constant chip it will take from burns. This limits its splashability as is, though the competition it faces from Fighting-types like Keldeo, Buzzwole, and Mienshao doesn’t help. Whether its standalone breaking prowess is enough for it to retain a spot in B is worth looking into. Same as Gastrodon - interested to know what you're exactly running and your games with it. This time, I know Flame Orb is very meta as a set but I've found specially defensive Bulk Up to be much better and able to stay in vs things like Aegislash more easily.



Mimikyu UR to C/C+: Mimikyu is a very interesting choice for a sweeper on HOs thanks to its signature ability offering a lot of potential utility to offensive builds. Scizor’s departure has opened up a lot of opportunities for Mimikyu, which makes re-ranking it feel like a legitimate possibility at this rate, though the competition it faces from Pokemon like Aegislash and Azumarill is also worth noting. So I know @Moutemoute posted a team with this - do you want to defend Mimikyu? Again, I'll defer to those knowledgable.



Celesteela was a split vote between dropping from A- and staying where it is. This isn’t a formal discussion point but more something that I would like to notify y’all will be on our next slate just for transparency. So the only set I've run is the standard Leech Seed Protect Flamethrower Heavy Slam specially defensive set. Considering it either counters or beats 1v1 the entirety of A+ to S rank except Thundurus, I'm not terribly keen on dropping it. Beating Salamence is important since Salamence can beat Jirachi and Aegislash with boosted Earthquakes. And being able to beat Aegislash is important as our other Steels cannot.

A few more things I'm rather knowledgeable about that others posted on:

A- -> B+/B
:moltres-galar: doesn't like the light clay ban Rest Sleep Talk Nasty Plot STAB (usually Fiery Wrath) is the main set now and beats most Aegislash sets without effort so the Light Clay ban doesn't affect this set much. I rather like it's bulk and ability to act as a stallbreaker if needed. You're somewhat invalidated by Fairies but you could use a Flying STAB over Nasty Plot or Fiery Wrath if desperate and you generally can find easy support in Amoonguss and Jirachi which are anti-Fairy Pokemon.
:ss/zygarde-10%: -> A-

even with its recent rise, i don't think zygarde's place in the meta reflects just how good it is right now. i've been really enjoying structures with zygarde and a defensive rock type like diancie (shoutouts pokemonisfun ) that let you retain the defensive utility of a ground-type with a more offensive approach. teams not running defensive tang or buzz are just actively threatened by zygarde, and the loss of scizor helped out out a ton -- not only is it harder to revenge kill it with other priority users (lycan found dead in a ditch), it also enables the diancie / zygarde structure even further. also, zarude structures get super punished because superpower / smack easily OHKOs -- stop running toxic all the time x We have a lot of pivots in the A ranks right now including Jirachi, Zarude, Rotom-W, Thundurus, Moltres, and Chansey. I find these rather essential to supporting Zygarde which otherwise can only come in on revenge, predictions, or a select few Pokeon (Nihilego, Rotom formes, Regieleki). Pivoting right now augments threats exactly like Zygarde which have very spammy attacks. The speed tier is so incredibly important
:ss/metagross:
Metagross should be ranked somewhere, it has quite a few effective sets rn but the main one I've been using is a variation of ORAS Demongross:

Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 220 SpD / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Protect

In an effort to find Steels that aren't Scizor I came across this and it felt like a better fit than Jirachi thanks to Earthquake and its great Attack making it a lot less passive with this type of set. Metagross is a solid check to the likes of Nihilego, Hatterene and general special attackers tbh just because of how bulky it is and it's not passive so it can lay the hurt on things in return, a physdef spread might be better but this was my Draco switchin so lol. I originally just threw it on as a meme on a team that made 0 sense but it honestly performed quite well overall and I was pleasantly surprised by it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1379722617-x5u9uhhc82xinq2xz525qt1ithlmttzpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1379713250

I didn't save a whole lot of replays from laddering but it's honestly a huge annoyance against a lot of teams and I think it deserves a spot on the VR. Other sets like CB and Agility are possibilities and maybe some coverage is better over toxtect but I love the longevity this provided. Give it a shot!!

I'd add this can kind of break some stalls right now. Because Celesteela isn't really a stall staple and while Umbreon counters Metagross, it has limited Heal Bells to stop Toxic, not much on stall actually beats Metagross. In light of this I think max Attack makes a lot more sense to avoid being walled by Chansey. Leftovers + Toxic immunity means you can build a bit more liberally with regards to your stall match up but it does get harder again given you cannot fit SR on this set. This is overly ideal but Metagross has a great MU vs this stall as Amoonguss doesn't have Foul Play and Quagsire is vulnerable to Toxic.

And finally:

:ss/noivern:
B- -> B+

no way... lily nomming noivern up...

Cannot believe this has dropped so far at this point, Noivern is in a fantastic spot atm, better than it has been in a long time. The necessity of Salamence as a Scizor check has dropped significantly and that frees up the possibility of running Noivern quite a bit - it's an absolute nightmare for offense to deal with and it can clean up games later on with ease. Yes it has 97 spa I'm aware of this but Draco Meteor is a Strong Attack:tm: and it still hits plenty hard for something so fast.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1379717211-f3lb2abso9nm4pipi4n0h37obxv5lh4pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1379722617-x5u9uhhc82xinq2xz525qt1ithlmttzpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1379713250

In the first replay, Noivern keeps a Zarude and Conkeldurr in check while nabbing 4 KOs despite the presence of what you would assume is a solid check (spdef Wish Jirachi) thanks to some good predictions on my end and a blunder from my opponent.

In the second replay, it once again KOs 4 Pokemon quite easily thanks to its great coverage and yes I was a lucky dog who dodged a Steela's Air Slash with my Kommo-o but shut up. It's not easy for teams like this to switch into it at all.

In the third replay I face rain and surprise surprise, it cleans up a bunch of easy KOs after some small chip on a few ons and would've swept my opponent had they not forfeited.

So for any doubters, here are some reasons why you should use it:

1) Rain matchup
It shouldn't really come as a surprise that a fast Water resist has an all-round solid Rain matchup. With Barraskewda often dropping Ice Fang and Keldeo being slower, Noivern is often able to KO one or both of them in exchange for most of its HP, but the kicker is that it can Roost for free on Pelipper to continuously be a threat. Fitting bulky Steels on rain isn't the easiest thing to do and most of the ones that people on ladder seem to be using (bulkless Jirachi, Ferroseed??) can be peppered easily enough by Flamethrower (tho Steela rain is a big nightmare). So in general it does quite well here.

2) Revenge killing capabilities
There exists a common sentiment among a lot of UU players right now: our scarfers suck. Scarf Krook has fallen off a cliff because of how good Lefties is and it being so easy to wall anyway, Jirachi is fine but it fails to revenge kill key threats like Thundurus and Keldeo, Mienshao is pretty much the only decent scarfer that doesn't cripple itself by running the item. This is why Noivern is good - it's pretty much the fastest mon in the tier outside of some rare stuff (Ribombee and Jolly Skewda) and it packs the biggest punch of them too. It can easily revenge kill the likes of Thundurus, Keldeo, unboosted Salamence (like after a Moxie boost but not DD'd up), Zarude, Kommo-o, etc and isn't too passive into stuff like Grass-types thanks to Flamethrower doing a nice chunk.

3) Positioning!!
Salamence does not learn U-turn. Yes, U-turn is a crutch or whatever, but you cannot deny its effectiveness when dealing with Pokemon that are weak to it like Zarude even off Noivern's crappy attack stat. It enables you to get in threats like Nidoking or your own Zarude in for free on the likes of Primarina or Hatterene, or your Rotom/Keldeo on the Celesteela/Nihilego or whatever. This adds a lot of depth to its game and I don't really need to tell you why U-turn is good lol.

I am not doing it justice here but I assure you this thing is super super good and has been freed up significantly after the most recent tier shifts. Please give it a try, I don't think it'll disappoint you.

I wasn't gonna include this but I will for fun: here's it owning mono ice + Sigilyph?? lol

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1379719480

Yes I agree Noivern is excellent these days, it probably should be in the A ranks. You can see how much pressure it exerts here in an unofficial tour game vs teams that don't use Fairies and only have Aegislash. Granted Mence would have been better this game as my opponent is slow. But vs Hyper Offense, it really does become useful with the extra speed, outspeeding Thundurus, Azelf, and Keldeo are all crucial here. Defog definitely is not the set Noivern wants to be running, Salamence can probably do that better as it's much bulkier.
C+ to B/B+
Scizor is gone and now Sylv can freely run sets with Heal Bell over Mystical Fire, it also doesn't have to get annoyed by Mew too.
Ok, now let's get to the point, Wish sets are simply pretty good because they are very flexible with the EV Spread, as it can run either Phsy Def sets for check mons such as DD Kommo-O, Buzzwole, DD Mence, SD Lycan (this thing often drops Stone Edge on SD sets) and Krookodile, SpD sets are good at beating Keldeo without rain, Thundurus forms, Primarina (it often spams Moonblast) and it pivots on SpA Mence even better. So yeah I find this mon pretty interesting atm and def it shouldn't be sitting at C+ with all of it's good strenghts.
Also, let's not forget that CM might gain usage as a good Amoonguss/Tang lure and it has utility moves such as Refresh which can beat Chansey unlike Prim (CM Snore might work as well, as Pixilate Snore is better than Liquid Voice Snore imo bcuz it can beat Zarude better). Going to tag Adrift and Alone cuz he might explain the Offensive Sylv better than me (way better than me in fact) and pif can explain the merit of have Sylv as well. Seems right although I'd think the phys defense sets are better, they also beat Krookodile and Zarude. Unlike Primarina, you offer Wish and Heal Bell plus an ability to beat Zarude and Electric types. Just a very good mon, not too far off from Primarina to be honest. Primarina has coverage for Fire types but they are on the down low with Rain and no Scizor to abuse. Primarina having it better vs steels is probably one of the only major benefits Primarina has.
 
Last edited:
to A; Disagree: Though sets have shifted towards RestTalk, allowing Amoonguss and Tentacruel to come in no longer fearing Psychic, it should absolutely not drop. Nothing switches into Specs safely bar Chansey and it being so splashable on many teams definitely warrants this to stay at A+.
to A-; Agree: While yes it can beat nearly every Defogger, it doesn’t necessarily have much longevity and can be worn down very easily by resisted hits. It is also VERY slow, so revenge killing it with Pokemon such as Keldeo, Primarina, Choice Band Krookodile.
to A-; Disagree: Assault Vest sets have seem to have been the main set as of late, but there is still some merit to Calm Mind, as it can still be a win condition. Assault Vest is great as Future Sight can pair very well with breakers such as Keldeo, Swords Dance Kommo-o, and Primarina can use their Fighting or Fairy STAB against Dark-types such as Umbreon that would be immune to Future Sight.
to A; Agree: Jirachi has TONS of utility moves with Healing Wish, Trick, U-turn, etc. It’s decent typing is great for Pokemon such as Nihilego. Choice Scarf sets have seen a resurgence as it can revenge kill Pokemon such as Lycanroc-D and pivot out of unfavorable matchups. Wish + U-turn is also great as it is not a momentum drain as other Wish passers such as Umbreon and Sylveon. Absolutely A material.
to B+; Agree: I nominated this in my last nominations and I will do so again. Umbreon is the only true counter to Nasty Plot, as its the combination of Psyshock, Energy Ball, and Fire Blast can rip through many defensive staples such as Chansey, Rhyperior, Aegislash, and Amoonguss after a Nasty Plot boost.
to B+; IDK: Never played against it, never used it.
to B-; Agree: This thing kills itself way too quickly and is too damn slow. If I wanted to use a Fighting-type wallbreaker, I would use Mienshao which can be a great revenge killer with Choice Scarf and a devastating wallbreaker with Life Orb. Regenerator is a broken ability and using that to negate most chip.
to C; IDK: same reasons as Gastrodon
to B+; Agree: SpDef Aegislash is so much better and Necrozma outclasses it as a Meteor Beam Autotomize Sweeper. This is just so meh.

PERSONAL NOMINATION
to B-: As part of the Bulu Defense Force (BDF) I will keep ranking this up until this either leaves for OU or goes to the D ranks. Defensive Tapu Bulu has had some great merits, such as it’s Fairy typing giving it a great matchup against Knock Off and Grassy Surge. While it is totally outclassed by Tangrowth and Amoonguss, it still has its own unique niche.

Here is the set:
Tapu Bulu @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe
Impish Nature
- Horn Leech
- Dazzling Gleam
- Toxic
- Synthesis

Horn Leech deals good damage to targets such as Primarina and Lycanroc-D. Dazzling Gleam to nail Kommo-o that would give other defensive Grass-types trouble. Toxic can cripple switch-ins such as Rotom-H. Synthesis is there for more reliable recovery outside of Grassy Terrain.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1381371235
In this game Tapu Bulu’s Grassy Terrain allows Rhyperior and Aegislash to remain healthy throughout the entire match so they can check Rotom-H and Jirachi, which are hard counters to Tapu Bulu.

to A+: Tangrowth is still in the ranks of Amoonguss. Assault Vest is still a fantastic mixed wall. It has other qualities over Amoonguss such as Knock Off which is huge. Its Ground resistance is also great against Krookodile and Zygarde-10%. While I think that Amoonguss is still better with its Fairy and Fighting resistance and Spore, but it is still A+.

OTHER NOMS I AGREE WITH
to C
to S-
to B+ but not A-
 
Last edited:

pokemonisfun

pia! Get into UU! http://spo.ink/pia1
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
:articuno: - Articuno from Unranked to B rank because of this set

freezey breezey (Articuno) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 16 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Roost
- Haze
- Heal Bell

Last move can also be Defog depending on what your team needs but you’re a better cleric than hazard control mon since you beat a lot of status users and abuse pressure to outlast any single Toxic user. EVs are pretty random but in general you need a lot of physical defense to reliably counter DD Salamence, Zarude, and Gyarados.

Specifically, this set beats the three Pokemon above as well as most water types, notably Primarina while checking Keldeo, and it also has a great match up versus most rain threats. Very few Pokemon has the defensive portfolio of Articuno and nothing also providers the two essential utility moves Articuno gets, Heal Bell and Defog.

The downside is the inability to function without Boots meaning things you’d otherwise counter like Tangrowth and Krookodile without Stone Edge actually can still badly cripple you with Knock Off. You also die to most Rock moves and lack too many resistances because of the Ice typing.

replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1387780839

laddering while ranked #1 and using Articuno to keep a Bulk Up Zarude at bay. It becomes impossible to switch into after Freeze Dry spam freezes Klefki to death

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1387877252

Laddering on an alt ranked #2, yes Articuno does nothing and I lose the game vs rain. But you can see Articuno has a theoretically great match up and is hard to switch into. The loss comes from Celesteela getting a surprise KO on Seismitoad, which isn’t commentary on Articuno

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1388313552-ax1ea5nymcp6n23bt3aefnqkuqenkzqpw

playing an unofficial tournament you can see Articuno flexing most of its traits - ability to counter Salamence is essential since it roasts my Fairy (Bulu) and steel (Aegislash) with Fire blast, but Articuno can take it and Roost and PP stall. Articuno also shows how strong it can be after Rocks are gone and it doesn’t need to worry about Knock Off and the Heal Bell keeps the whole team healthy

in short, Articuno is unique in the amount of utility it brings and the ability to beat or even counter an important amount of highly ranked Pokemon (Keldeo, Primarina, Salamence, Zarude, and Gyarados).
 

pokemonisfun

pia! Get into UU! http://spo.ink/pia1
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
:Omastar:

Omastar UR --> B

This thing is a monster in rain. I was trying to ladder back to #1 and it just has too few counters. Meteor Beam is so incredibly powerful, stronger than Ice Beam vs Tangrowth/Amoonguss, and if it gets a Shell Smash boost in rain you're doomed more or less.

You can see in this game my side has plenty of rain counter measures (Amoonguss, Protect Jirachi to stall rain, Rotom-W), but I am unable to bait the Meteor Beam out and Omastar gets an essential hit on Rotom-W, allowing Azumarill to sweep me later.

I am nominating it to whatever rank Kingdra is, and it happens to be B, but I have no doubt in my mind rain sweepers in general are just horrifically dangerous right now and have very limited counterplay if they come in for free with sufficient rain remaining, duck soup when you have U-Turn Pelipper.

Some calcs for reference:

+1 252+ SpA Omastar Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Amoonguss: 340-402 (78.7 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ SpA Omastar Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Amoonguss: 357-420 (82.6 - 97.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Omastar Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 32 SpD Amoonguss: 456-538 (105.5 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Omastar Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 286-338 (70.7 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (I admit this one is a toughie, granted, max SpDef isn't too common anymore with Barraskewda and Lycanroc more easily pressuring this set)

+1 252+ SpA Omastar Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 280-330 (92.1 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (this one is obscene)
 

Rae

formerly Magnum
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Gonna actually comment and give my thoughts on the discussion slate for once, wow!


While Primarina now faces better competition as a Water-type breakers by Keldeo and Azumarill and the rise of Tentacruel and Chansey effect it, Primarina is still and absolutely crazy Pokemon in the tier and deserves to stay A+. Between Choice Specs, which even Tentacruel and Amoonguss don't really want to switch into Psychic, RestTalk, which can make for a fantastic glue able to check the likes of Keldeo, Salamence, Kommo-o and a decent portion of Rain Pokemon, and the devilish Calm Mind sets that make for a terrifying win condition, Primarina is comfortably an A+ Pokemon in the tier



Rhyperior faces difficult fair competition from other Stealth Rock setters in Krookodile and Nihilego, who both have much better utility and offensive presence. It's weaknesses don't help it either, particularly with the recent surge in Water-types and it's proneness to chip makes it super duper easy to take advantage of. Though it's able to beat and trade with Pokemon like Mence, Lycanroc-D, Rotom-Heat and more, it doesn't provide as much utility as the other two and I think it should drop



I HARD disagree with dropping Galarian Slowbro. It's incredible synergy with numerous Pokemon in the tier like Tangrowth, Buzzwole and Rotom-W, as well as powerful Future Sight Support makes Assault Vest sets incredible. Calm Mind has fallen off a little bit recently, but Goggles CM sets have seen some recent discussion and are likely to pick up soon, so i think it should stay where it is.



Jirachi has recently presented itself as an incredibly useful and handy Pokemon in the tier, with access to Wish, U-turn and Stealth Rock it has some incredible utility, and Choice Scarf sets are capable of revenge killing powerful presences in the tier like Lycanroc, Zygarde-10% and Salamence. (some of the time) Right now I personally think that running either Ice Punch or Thunder Punch is the wave, with Ice Punch helping you handle Dragon-types whilst still hitting the Grass-types Fire Punch hits, and with Thunder Punch slamming those Water-types on the rise. Though it may be somewhat passive in some situations, I believe a rise is warranted for Jirachi.



Azelf's really surprised me lately, with both of it's sets being pretty successful for me. After leaving my noms for last slate i decided to try out the Pivot set and it's done well, with it's great speed tier, diverse movepool and power it's able to pose quite a threat to a wide variety of teams. While it is true that a lot of priority users are making a big splash onto the scene like Azumarill, Lycanroc-D and Zygarde-10%, I genuinely believe that Azelf is worthy of a rise thanks to it's offensive capabilities and minor defensive niche as a Ground immunity.



Gastrodon's defensive use in the tier has recently skyrocketed between the Rain Resurgence™ and the rise of plenty of powerful Electric-type pivots, particulaly Thundurus-I. It's ability to pester a lot of Pokemon on the opposing team, check Pokemon like Nihilego without GKnot, Thundy-I and Keldeo, while also being the best counter to Rotom-W makes it a noteworthy Pokemon. Water Absorb also makes Gastrodon a crucial member of a team when facing Rain, which does augment it's viability right now and deems it a solid B+ Pokemon.



Conkeldurr is pretty much outclassed by the other Fighting-types in the tier like Keldeo, Buzzwole and Mienshao, which provide better coverage, speed tiers, defensive utility and the ability to keep up momentum. While it's an absolutely menacing wallbreaker, it simply doesn't give a team everything it needs, and it being susceptible to chip thanks to Guts makes it even worse. I think Conkeldurr should have dropped a little while ago, but if anytime it should be now.



I personally haven't used Mimikyu, however I can see it carving out a minor niche on HO teams thanks to it's Disguise giving it some minor defensive utility and it's power after a Swords Dance. While there are often much better options than Mimikyu on HO teams, it can sometimes help out and be that missing piece of the puzzle, and I think that giving it C rank is fair and accurately reflects it's viability in the tier.



Celesteela for me is an incredibly odd case. It's weak to a great portion of the tiers wallbreakers, and even then it's susceptible to chip due to it's lack of reliable recovery which makes it a poor choice on some teams. However, it's solid stats and ability to annoy the other team with Leech Seed + Protect, as well as the possibility of offensive sets becoming popular, should technically let it keep it's niche in the tier. It does struggle with constant oncoming damage from the likes of Thundurus, Rotom-W, Nidoking and plenty more, as well as being outclassed by the likes of SpDef Aegislash as a fat Steel-type and plenty of other set-up sweepers like Kommo-o and Moltres-Galar on HO teams, so I think that a drop to B+ is the right decision
 
Last edited:
:Rhyperior: A -> A-
Agree
I wouldn't opposed to putting lower quite honestly. It needs to stay healthy to check mons its supposed to like Salamence and other mons like Thundurus and Nihilego click knock off once on a switch and suddenly Rhyperior needs to stay out of the battle outside of checking those two specifically. That goes for other mons like Entei and Moltres, it can stomach their stabs for days on end but it either gets burned from the former meaning it can't play offensively well or gets Toxic'd from the latter meaning it can struggle to outlast molt without outside support. Guess what Moltres also has Uturn to scout what you're gonna do next. Sure it can trade with Lycan but if its tasked with handling any one of these other threats, among others I might have forgotten to list, then it's just not happening.

That's just excluding arguments about its competition too. Higher speed, access to knock off, just overall more room to play less passively are a only a few things Krookodile, Nihilego, and even Seismitoad have over Rhyperior.

:Articuno: UR -> C
Articuno @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 244 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Defog
- Heal Bell
- Roost

I played articuno before on some otherwise standard stall teams before but I never got great results. I tried it again after being really tilted on ladder, Pif beat my ass with this before so I decided to retry it. I am actually standing with him on this one, because this thing low key slaps. Unlike Pif, I played a specially defensive spread to just be more reliable against special mence, though I may just try more physdef for zarude honestly. I am so sorry to everyone who had to suffer through these matches.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1397887165-69ni04aum0vfdaght5ykgnqb29at97lpw
Articuno doesn't show up until like the end of the match but my opponent was basically gonna get pp stalled out of toxics between multiple targets, pressure, and heal bell. Shadow Balls were hardly an option either, Articuno literally eats them for days and Umbreon can wish pass if I get an unlucky SpDef drop or two. Speaking of, I had another match where I toxic'd the kommo-o with umbreon but I don't have the replay, Articuno filling the role of Heal Bell user gives Umbreon more room to be less passive and to mess with Aegi more since articuno reliably pp stalls toxic with pressure.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1397890938-gbsy54d5wwgovpwh28vxko9ep7ntlkfpw
I had to play my ass off against that Thundurus after letting it get 2 boosts, shoutouts to Celebi here. Anyways, Articuno just sort of invalidates Salamence and removes hazards right in its face, something Togekiss can do too but not without worrying about Thundurus coming in.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1397909369-663xkl6urv9vq5irge6jcykiez4cdk7pw
If Mence couldn't break through then Noivern absolutely isn't, by this point Articuno was incredibly difficult to switch into and the damage on Mamoswine was enough to make sure it wasn't a threat as long as I had Umbreon.
 
Last edited:
1629381530164.png
C+ -> C

I have rarely seen this thing on ladder and when i do it juts flops, its a fire dark that can "hard counter" aegislash due to both its stabs nuking it. Its sample set on smogon is SD which is walled by some of the best pokemon in the tier such as primarina, keldeo, kommo-o, and azumarill while due to it being very slow just gets outsped and threatened by pokemon like nihilego, zygarde, mienshao, and krookodile. It is also very hard to bring it in as most pokemon have a way to easily pressure it and force it out or just cripple it with status or knock off from users such as chansey, tangrowth, amoonguss, and slowbro-g.

1629382031526.png
C -> C+
1629382059787.png
UR -> C+

These two pokemon pair very well, ninetales can set 8 turn hail for arctozolt to abuse, which arctozolt has pretty much unresisted stabs in the tier outside of rotom-h. Having double speed very limits the amount of counterplay you can have especially when this thing causes so many 50/50 of "will it bolt beak or will i get smacked by a blizzard. Teams cannot rely on ground or grass types to block bolt beak as they get nuked by blizzard, and usually its one prediction away from just 6-0ing teams. This thing is going up to C+ due to how slow it is meaning stuff such as scarf zarude, and mienshao can kill it and generally there are enough checks in the tier that forces it to go for 50/50 or it just does not force progress especially with the limited 8 turns of hail.
 

Monky25

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
around this time there should be an update coming soon so I figured I'd do some last minute nominations

Starting things off with a somewhat controversial nomination, I believe
should drop to S-. Keldeo is a meta defining threat, there's no doubt about that. Most teams need to prepare at least 2 checks to it for them to not be weak to it. However, this is exactly why Keldeo should drop. Many teams are packing tons of checks to it, with Pokemon like Salamence, Thundurus, Primarina, Amoonguss, Tangrowth, Azumarill, AV Glowbro, Galarian Moltres, Tentacruel, and Starmie all being fairly common. Since these checks are very common and good against the majority of the meta, I've been feeling that Keldeo's effectiveness has declined in recent weeks. Its sorta similar to when it was first risen to S after Slowking and Zeraora left, and dropped back down once the hype was gone. Keldeo is still a top threat and very big on the builder, which is why it should be in S- as opposed to A+, but I don't believe it is as consistent as Aegislash to share a rank with it. Also, Thundurus is even more threatening than Keldeo (seriously its broken) for Keldeo to be a subrank higher than it, so Keldeo should drop down to reflect it becoming less of a threat in the metagame right now.

should rise to A-, its still very threatening in a metagame with rain and is just stupidly tough to switch into. It's also got a dummy strong priority that can handle Hyper offense teams like sticky webs. It was probably one of the toughest Pokemon to prepare for when West was building for qualifiers and our tiebreak, making me acknowledge it is still dangerous right now. My views on Entei have come a long way, I used to think it was overhyped when it was first brought up, but the more I've seen and used it, I acknowledge that Entei is pretty dangerous to handle without a RestTalk Prim and should rise to A- to reflect that.

Meanwhile,
should rise to B-. Its a dangerous rain wallbreaker and counter that has been undersold quite a bit. KM brought up a Choice Scarf set that is really cool to lure faster threats like Krookodile and Zarude, with it being a pain to face even when you know it is coming. Its not a metagame defining threat or anything, but its better than all the shit in C+ and could rise to B-.

Lastly,
should drop to B-, mostly for the same reasons as conkeldurr. Its a strong wallbreaker but it gets worn down over time and has to rely on the unreliable resttalk to function in the long term. Its outclassed by other breakers like Mienshao, Lycanroc, and Buzzwole who are faster, stronger, or have better defensive utility. It counters SubToxic Aegi, but so does Zarude, and I'd much rather use it over a mon that kills itself over time. B- fits it better due to how vulnerable it is against faster threats and the competition it faces as a Dark-type on teams.

Edit: I think Omastar and Articuno should be ranked at B- and C respectively, both are viable enough to be ranked

I tried to get replays with Arctozolt but failed
 
Last edited:
:Froslass: UR to C
:Klefki: C+ to C / C-
It just occurred to me that nobody nommed this mon despite being on the sample team while Roserade and fucking Klefki are C+. Klefki doesn't even have good defensive utility against a Pokemon its typing is supposed to hard counter like Galarian Moltres, and unlike Froslass, Starmie and Hatterene bully it to no end continuously denying its hazards. I'm fine with not putting it lower since most of my negative thoughts about it come from low ladder so I could be missing something, and it can claim to spike to all over Nihilego but I am just not seeing why we should keep it as high as it is.

I am also fine with whatever for Froslass here because it is a new presence and only fits on hazard offense teams, so I'm open to more thoughts from the player base about this.
 
Last edited:
I agree that :keldeo: should drop It's insanely scary under rain but otherwise specs is reasonably easy to stomach. People are using stuff like Rest Talk Prim again, and dedicated rain counters are making their way into some teams (notably Mantine). While that reflects, to some extend, Keldeo's impact on the metagame, those are for the most part perfectly fine mons otherwise and I rarely feel forced to include them (unlike say, Aegislash or Thundurus answers). Sub CM is still scary on paper, abusing some passive answers like toxic Mantine, fat DM Mence and Tenta, but i've yet to see it working. S- or A+ both sound fine with me.

:nidoking: :nidoqueen: :diggersby: :mamoswine: :zygarde-10%:
• Among the ground breakers, I definitely think Mamoswine has the edge right now and the VR should probably reflect that. Unlike Nid@s it doesn't have any hard stops (Rotom Wash is too frail, Buzzwole can be flinched or kod after chip, Umbreon is chippable, fat molts still despise koff). It also brings decent defensive utility thanks to its respectable bulk but mostly Ice Shard, that I find extremely valuable in a meta this slow. It's able to pick off some scary breakers with minimal chip, much easier than Diggersby and neutral damage Quick Attack.
• Diggersby feels a bit wack to use, its speed tier is uh, band can get pivoted on a few times and sd doesn't set up on much. It also rather frail and Quick Attack is barely useful over wallbreakers priority moves like mamo's Shard or lycan's Accelrock. Even Zydog's Espeed feel better rn, solely for the additional priority.
• Nid@s are in a weird position, Nidoking hardly has any stops but often wants modest which makes its ok speed tier kinda weak. It has the punch to 2hko a huge amount of the metagame but some stuff it's supposed to break can still stay in and trade blows if needed, which makes it even more prediction reliant. Nidoqueen's bulk over it is valuable against foes like Thundurus or Nihilego but not being able to pick the 2hko on umbry can suck (esta your lobbying works oml !)
Overall I think Mamo should be put over the rest, both Nid@s roughly in the same rank (maybe one subrank difference), Zydog and Digger could swap ranks.

:slowbro-galar: :reuniclus:
I like my AV psychics rn, and I don't think either should drop. They can trade blows against a huge amount of our special attackers, even Aegislash which is pretty damn funny to me. I also think Future Sight is pretty valuable right now, Spore Amoong's back to be our most popular grass, it can dent that and a few others to different extents (mence, buzz, RH growth, Molt) for some physical attackers. I've tried Goggles Bro to abuse Amoong, it didn't do much other than getting overpowered every other game but it should work with the right amount (a solid) of support.

:salamence:
I hate this mon as much as I still like it. It sits here and does nothing while pretending to break stuff, which is only true if you're using Rain Salamence. I hate hurricane otherwise, especially when it's a move you're supposed to click a lot throughout the game. Defog Mence feels mandatory in a few teams but it having two offensive moves is kinda bad, I value Draco on those solely for Thundurus (and pretending you're not useless against Nihi), but the low pp and the fact you have to switch out can be painful in some matchups.
I honestly never no what to do with this mon, and whatever I choose, its performance mostly depends on the matchup. I don't think it's on par with Krook/Lycan/Amoong/Prim/(Keldeo?) rn, but it's probably not too bad.


I also think Zarude could drop, it's very nice in some cases but it's a fake water resist, an abusable Aegislash answer and kinda became a U-turn bot to me again. I felt forced to run scarf in one squad, but I don't consider boots Zarude quite as much anymore. Rhyp and Azu are probably fine but I see so little of those (especially the latter) that I'm not sure I can tell. I tried Rhyp recently and it did decently, not sure that warrants A. Jirachi should rise, both rocks and scarf brings a huge lot to teams, both defensively and offensively.
 
Last edited:

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Moderator
Here's our update! For now there are no discussion points but I'll be sure to add some once the suspect wraps up. Enjoy!

Rises
:Thundurus: from S- to S: Thundurus has developed into arguably the most centralizing and pivotal Pokemon of the metagame. It is simply a phenomenal progress maker by virtue of its typing, Knock Off and U-turn access, and coverage and Speed that are both superb. It is incredibly consistent and forces metagame trends around its prowess, which justifies a bump up from S-.

:Kommo-o: from A to A+: In spite of its recent downward trend, Kommo-o has once again established itself as a top-notch Pokemon with many strong applications in the metagame. Swords Dance sets have really picked up and given it strong offensive importance, while its ability lends itself to making Kommo-o among the sturdiest and most splashable Ghost-type switch-ins the tier has to offer.

:Celesteela: from A- to A: Previously a long-time candidate for a drop from A-, Celesteela has really been highlighting its defensive value recently. Convincingly pivoting in on Toxic Aegislash sets is fairly huge, though it also offers excellent additional utility with its coverage, the benefits of Leech Seed and Protect, and the ability to soft check many popular pokemon.

:Jirachi: from A- to A: Jirachi has a lot to love as a pick right now. Its Scarf set offers a solid check to foes like Lycanroc while additionally compressing pivoting and utility with Trick/Healing Wish. Bulkier sets have also proven quite useful, tapping further into Jirachi’s typing and key access to Wish.

:Mamoswine: from B+ to A-: The hierarchy of Ground-type wallbreakers has recently shuffled a bit, with Mamoswine coming out on top. In spite of its middling defensive utility, Mamoswine can pull through with its ability to force progress against and even potentially power through its conventional checks, including Rotoms/Buzzwole/Moltres/Umbreon. Ice Shard can also be pretty key with Thundurus, Salamence, and Kommo-o all remaining popular.

:Nidoqueen: from B- to B: Nidoqueen was dropped a bit too harshly in the last update, recently proving a niche that is potentially even stronger than Nidoking’s. Its extra bulk can be very nice in the matchups against Thundurus/Lycanroc/Nihilego, while it also has less to lose than Nidoking in opting for a Modest nature.

:Noivern: from B- to B: Another Pokemon that was likely dropped too harshly, Noivern is still quite the decent pick thanks to its absolutely excellent Speed tier and key access to U-turn, two distinct factors over Salamence. I would write more but Lily is a lot smarter than me so check her post out here if you’re interested in reading up on Noivern more!

:Roserade: from C+ to B: Roserade has thrived in a post-Mew metagame, once again reclaiming a firm niche as a strong Spikes setter. The perks of its typing can feel quite nice with Primarina and Rotom-W both being strong picks, while it also can utilize Spikes/Sleep Powder to force progress in spite of the presence of various Steel-type checks.

:Tapu Bulu: from C+ to B-: At long last, Tapu Bulu is finally rising from C+. It has received sufficient exploration to prove that it truly has defensive merit in this metagame, functioning as a capable check to Pokemon like Keldeo, Kommo-o, and Barraskewda. Its usage has been quite notable and reflective of its niche, putting it above the more niche Pokemon in C+.

:Volcanion: from C+ to B-: Volcanion can abuse its Water-immunity and immense damage output to take advantage of many rain structures, which are quite popular at the moment. Between receiving more general exploration and taking advantage of meta trends to grow more threatening, it certainly deserves to rise right now.

:Metagross: from UR to B-: Metagross has carved a pretty sturdy niche for itself in a post-Scizor metagame. It fills an important Steel-type slot on teams while offering many great traits, including a solid damage output, hazards, and the additional capacity to opt for a variety of effective, threatening sets.

:Ninetales-Alola: from C to C+, :Arctozolt: from UR to C+: Although hail hasn’t taken the meta by storm in the same vein as OU, it still has a decent place in the tier thanks to Arctozolt being pretty incredible with Ninetales’s support. Its coverage and enhanced Speed are bonkers together, and with proper additional exploration it could come into its own even further in the tier.

:Regieleki: from C to C+: While Regieleki still isn’t a game changing presence, it has seen some exploration that has yielded a clearer niche for it. Thunder Cage + SubTect sets can make for quite the devastating trapper under the correct supportive conditions, which has pretty steadily distinguished it from some of its main competitors.

:Omastar: from UR to C+: Omastar has proven to be a pretty devastating offensive threat in rain, which is now obviously super accessible to it. Meteor Beam can be game changing when utilized carefully, though Omastar’s Water-type STAB and coverage are additionally super useful and narrow down its counterplay quite noticeably.

:Articuno: from UR to C: Articuno has emerged as a compelling option on bulkier builds thanks to the unique but useful defensive tools it offers. Solid matchups against most rain threats, Primarina, and Zarude go a long way, though it has plentiful additional utility to boot, including Haze to boost the Gyarados/Salamence matchups, cleric capabilities, and Defog. While still a niche option, the synergy with other solid Pokemon its typing and movepool lend it is fully worth a starting place in C.

:Froslass: from UR to C: Froslass has received genuine usage to warrant a rank, even appearing on a recent sample team. Spikes HOs are back, and as the most reliable hazard setter for the archetype, Froslass can convincingly fit into the VR now.

:Guzzlord: from UR to C: Lol I’m not writing a paragraph on this mon for the fifth time. Great defensive typing and a genuine ability to consistently make progress thanks to Knock Off. Read KM’s post for more.

:Mimikyu: from UR to C: A bit of an unknown factor in the meta until previously, Mimikyu has a decent niche on Spikes HOs as exemplified by Moutemoute’s aforementioned sample team. Disguise is a stellar tool for its preferred archetype, distinguishing it enough from Aegislash for a rank.

:Scolipede: from UR to C: Scolipede actually isn’t terrible in a Scizorless meta, who knew? Although it still requires decent support, an excellent ability and convenient coverage have given it the opportunity to function as a decent cleaner that many teams aren’t as prepared for as they may think.

Drops
:Keldeo: from S to A+: Keldeo has officially experienced its second full-circle phase of briefly taking the metagame by storm, only to become incredibly prepared for to the degree that it warrants a drop from S after just a month or so. It still has a notable impact on building, but no shortage at this rate of common offensive and defensive checks alike.

:Zarude: from A+ to A: Zarude began suffering a slight downfall just after it finally rose back into A+. The advent of rain has supplied the metagame with several popular Water-type threats that Zarude fails to reliably check. This has relegated Zarude to being force to U-turn to make progress more often while additionally requiring builders to be a bit more careful as they slot it in.

:Rhyperior: from A to A-: Although it is still among the more reliable rockers, Rhyperior has grown easier to overwhelm given the tier’s steady surge of many Water- and Grass-types. Rain teams being a hot topic in the metagame have decreased a lot of its opportunities, while popular Pokemon it should check in Nihilego/Thundurus still have ways of circumventing it.

:Moltres: from A- to B+: A rain-infested metagame has proven to be fairly unkind to poor Moltres. In addition to rain threats, Thundurus/Rotom-W/Chansey all being very good limits its in-game opportunities.

:Nidoking: from A- to B+: Nidoking’s fierce damage output hasn’t prevented it from being too awkward a pick for A-. Its lacking defensive utility can really force you into a tight building situation, while its Speed isn’t super accessible given that it often struggles to choose between Modest and Timid natures. Despite the initial hype, Nidoqueen is proving to be more on par with it than we initially thought.

:Starmie: from A- to B+: Starmie has fallen off a bit as the necessity of hard-stopping Keldeo has decreased. It’s still plenty potent, but doesn’t have tools that offer it the same consistency or utility as the other Pokemon in A-.

:Thundurus-therian: from A- to B+: Thundurus-T suffers pretty massive opportunity cost with how strong its speedier counterpart currently is. Its power and ability can still prove their individual usefulness, but Thundurus-I’s fantastic utility and splashability are often quite hard to pass up these days.

:Diggersby: from B+ to B: Diggersby has been failing recently to adequately separate itself from other Ground-type wallbreakers. Its poor Speed and defensive utility eat into its usability a fair amount, while Mamoswine’s Ice Shard poses as much more useful priority than Quick Attack, which often needs a boost to pose much threat.

:Chandelure: from B to B-: Chandelure continues to experience a massive fall from grace as Aegislash simply outperforms it. The advent of rain and a bevy of popular Water-types has also really hurt the spammability of its most powerful attacks.

:Conkeldurr: from B to B-: Although it absolutely dumps on fat builds, Conkeldurr often struggles for a slot on account of the massive competition it faces from other Fighting-types. Mienshao, Buzzwole, and Keldeo also offer threatening offensive presences but infinitely more utility with their additional typings or Regenerator in Mienshao’s case.

:Gardevoir: from B to B-: Gardevoir doesn’t really receive enough usage to keep a spot in B. On paper it has a nice niche with Trace in a rain-infested metagame, but it struggles to consistently perform in other matchups and can’t tap into the defensive utility of its Fairy- or Psychic-typings well at all.

:Raikou: from B to C: Raikou sees a massive drop on account of unfortunately offering almost zero useful tools in the metagame. At one point it seemed like a decent Zeraora sub-in, though its lack of Knock Off has proven pretty fatal to its ability to force meaningful progress. It clings onto a niche for now, but could very well be unranked in the near future.

:Haxorus: from C+ to C: Haxorus is in a pretty rough spot as a setup Pokemon given the massive competition it faces from both SD Kommo-o and DD Salamence. Choice Band still supplies it with a niche, though its lacking defensive utility in most scenarios makes it really difficult to justify lately.

:Milotic: from C+ to C: There are many solid defensive Water-types right now, including Primarina, Mantine, the Water/Ground bunch, and even Jellicent. With so many competitors that offer their own unique traits, Milotic severely struggles to distinguish its spot in the metagame, warranting yet another drop.

:Torkoal: :Venusaur: from C+ to C: With Rain and Hail both proving to be worthwhile weather archetypes, Sun suffers pretty intense competition. Torkoal/Venusaur simply don’t present the same utility or offensive prowess as other weather staples, relegating them to being fringe picks that require a fair amount of support.

:Tornadus: from C+ to C: This thing has barely received any usage since its inception and suffers pretty extreme competition from other Flying-types in almost any context it’d appear in. The metagame would need to shift a lot to be favorable to Tornadus.

This thread should be open for business again. Be kind and happy posting!
 

viet noa

eating neopronoun pizza at little xe/xyrs
is a Pre-Contributor
thoughts on these changes:
- mimikyu finally being ranked is interesting, i just find it funny that a uu sample team legit has had it as a teammate for a while lmao
- the ability to check aegi will always make celesteela really valuable as a defensive sponge, so the rise to a tier was absolutely deserved. autotomize sets will always hold a special place in my heart, though
- rhyperior might be less splashable than before due to the rise of rain and grass types, but i still think its immense bulk and value as a volt immunity gives it the ability to sit on a very significant chunk of the metagame, enough to justify remaining in a tier IMO

future discussion points:
- is rain good enough to justify raising the ranks of rain staples like barraskewda? i still feel like the playstyle is a little bit too inconsistent for rain abusers to rise, but i can understand why people would disagree w me.
- with the presence of grass-types like tangrowth & amoonguss, alongside the rise of roserade & tapu bulu, will the checks to these mons see as much of a rise? on one hand, fire-types like moltres theoretically love the increase in grass-type usage, but on the other hand, the rise of rain and the threat of keldeo & primarina certainly hurt them.
- is arctozolt cool? you’re a fuckin square if u answer no
 
It's my first time actually posting in this thread, but I have some nominations I'm confident in making after coming back to UU!

:Gastrodon: from B to B+: Gastrodon is a phenomenal Pokemon on balance and bulky offense structures right now, and IMO deserves to be ranked higher than Seismitoad. It is one of the sturdiest answers to Thundurus in the meta, and the fact that it has instant recovery means it gets many more chances to come in throughout a game and be useful. It is also amazing against rain and crucially can always take 2 Close Combats from Barraskewda, easing the burden of staving it off throughout a game against rain offense. Gastrodon's high special bulk and HP along with good defense allow it to be a good sponge to a variety of hits throughout a game. It also blocks Volt Switch momentum from the Rotom formes, and can counter Nihilego sets not running Grass Knot. Finally, it can also aid the effort in holding off Aegislash in a pinch.

:Umbreon: from B to B+: Umbreon has seen a lot of usage lately as a very study answer to many physical threats in the meta and Aegislash. Foul Play and its giant bulk + recovery with Wish mean that physical attackers must always be wary of boosting up too early against it lest they get dropped prematurely by Foul Play while Umbreon is able to tank the hit and be useful later on in the match.

:Reuniclus: from B to B+: Reuniclus' Assualt Vest set in particular is amazing at repeatedly holding off hugely threatening special threats throughout a game, including Keldeo, Nidoking, and Primarina. Its amazing coverage + excellent utility in Knock Off + guaranteed delayed damage from Future Sight also means that nothing gets to switch into it safely and Reuniclus gets to make progress throughout the game.

:Sneasel: from UR to C+: Lily has made a believer out of me with this thing! Sneasel is incredibly scary to come in on with its Dark + Ice STAB and blazing fast speed tier, matching Azelf and Zygarde-10% to be outsped by very little in the metagame outside of Scarfers and weather boosters. Sneasel reliably threatens a ton of great Pokemon in the meta right now, including Aegislash, both Thundurus formes, Salamence, Amoonguss, Tangrowth, Kommo-o, Zarude, and Galarian Moltres, among others. It can also threaten others like Krookodile and Jirachi once you have determined they are not scarfed, or prevent these from coming in safely to check it. It can also threaten Fairies or Mamoswine with Poison Jab/Low Kick depending on your choice of coverage. On the other hand, Sneasel is incredibly frail, and can take very few non-resisted hits. Because of this, I recommend trying out Lum Berry on it, as it allows Sneasel to come in on weak Scalds and not fear/set up Swords Dance against Scald/Toxic/Thunder Wave from the opposing team. Sneasel is frail enough that keeping it at 100% HP using Heavy-Duty Boots against rocks vs 75% HP without Boots doesn't usually make much of a difference in its survivabilty. I have been using it on the following team and have had a lot of success with it, so feel free to try it out: https://pokepast.es/c9742e993ca3de57.

Some replays of Sneasel putting in work:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1403805302-yehgnhq2wdt7qpf72lt14coowkknfbcpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1403529877-zvwvcp33pz5g7a0zpvvshr0zbgqsc6xpw
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 2, Guests: 0)

Top