Resource SS UU Viability Ranking Thread (Pre-DLC)

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Hilomilo

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Welcome to the SS UU Viability Ranking Thread!

Here, our goal is to sort every Pokemon with viability in the SS UU metagame into ranks based on their specific value in the tier. Anyone and everyone is encouraged to post their thoughts regarding the rankings, which will then be discussed by our viability team when putting updates together. In updating the thread, we do our best to refine the rankings to what most accurately represents the metagame. Updates do not occur on a scheduled basis, and will instead happen when the metagame has developed to a point that several accurate changes can be made.

Host: Hilomilo

The main idea of the ranking thread is to group each UU-viable Pokemon into 'tiers' that go in order, from S to C-. Below are general descriptions of what you should expect of Pokemon found in specific ranks.

S Rank describes Pokemon that provide dominant or multifaceted presences within the metagame. Whether it's through offensive, defensive, or supportive roles, S-ranked Pokemon perform at a top level of consistency, provide excellent utility and/or versatility, and prove key in shaping the metagame's trends and patterns.

In the A+ and A ranks reside Pokemon that are also defining but don't quite provide the same extent of splashability, utility, or centralization as what's in S. A- and B+ describe Pokemon that have solid places in the tier, but aren't as necessarily defining or consistent despite making their presences known. B is generally the lowest rank in which Pokemon with solidified niches in the tier can be found. In B- and C+ lie Pokemon with defined niches that may run into more restrictions that prevent consistent usage, as well as Pokemon with untapped yet firm potential.

C and C- are generally for Pokemon that have their uses but are often outclassed or more inconsistent, as well as Pokemon with specific niches that don't warrant particularly high placement. Newly discovered Pokemon that are viable but have yet to find their footing or consistent usage can also be found here. Lastly, D-ranked Pokemon are UU by usage but unviable in the metagame. As such, discussion on Pokemon ranked in D is not allowed.

When nominating Pokemon to rise or drop in this thread, be sure to try avoiding personal bias. Some things to consider bringing up when discussing a Pokemon are how trends favor or disadvantage it, how it compares to competition for its role, and how it has adapted to shifts in the overall metagame. Replays are also great tools to help support a nomination, especially if it's for an unranked Pokemon to find a rank somewhere. Now, without further ado, it's time to get to our rankings. Enjoy!

S Rank
Incineroar
Noivern
Rillaboom

A+ Rank
Celebi
Cobalion
Keldeo
Necrozma
Reuniclus
Rhyperior
Roserade
Sylveon

A Rank
Copperajah
Doublade
Pangoro
Rotom-W
Toxtricity

A- Rank
Bronzong
Chandelure
Darmanitan
Escavalier
Gardevoir
Gigalith
Golisopod
Heliolisk
Lucario
Machamp
Milotic
Weezing-Galar

B+ Rank
Barraskewda
Flygon
Gastrodon
Indeedee
Inteleon
Mantine
Tsareena
Umbreon

B Rank
Araquanid
Arcanine
Barbaracle
Espeon
Jellicent
Polteageist
Porygon2
Ribombee
Scyther
Sirfetch'd
Vaporeon

B- Rank
Bewear
Blastoise
Centiskorch
Duraludon
Goodra
Linoone
Ninetales
Passimian
Rotom-C
Salazzle
Xatu

C+ Rank
Golurk
Quagsire
Sigilyph
Silvally-Steel
Slurpuff
Snorlax
Toxicroak
Vileplume
Virizion
Whimsicott

C Rank
Claydol
Corsola-Galar
Ditto
Drapion
Dugtrio-Alola
Froslass
Magneton
Pyukumuku
Runerigus
Shiftry
Steelix
Stunfisk-Galar
Togedemaru
Vanilluxe

C- Rank
Avalugg
Galvantula
Pelipper
Rapidash-Galar
Torkoal
Vikavolt
 
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Juno

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:milotic: Milotic A --> S. No, not A+. S. :milotic:

This may seem like a stretch but I honestly don't know why Milotic isn't S. It's easily the second-best mon in the tier and should be at the same rank as Doublade. Arguably its even better than Doublade but that's another matter that I won't get into. I'm also not going to ask why Hippowdon is ranked above it...

If you take a look at the VR right now, Milotic pretty much sits on half the tier while also having the ability to fit on virtually any playstyle, a trait shared only by - arguably - Weezing-Galar and Doublade. Bulky Waters are pretty much mandatory right now and having a mon that can fit on pretty much any archetype you want barring HO is really variable in this meta. Scald + Ice Beam with decent base Special Attack also means that its surprisingly annoying to switch into. Even Heliolisk, arguably one of its best exploiters, hates being chipped repeatedly by Ice Beam, especially if its Life Orb.

The upsides of Milotic greatly outweigh its downsides, a key trait in any S rank mon. Putting aside other bulky waters where it delves down to a PP stall war, switch-ins are surprisingly limited. Tsareena, Roserade, and Rotom-Mow are 2HKOed by Ice Beam, though the former two can just run Synthesis to resolve this. As I mentioned earlier Heliolisk doesn't like switching into repeated Ice Beams, and while physical wallbreakers can break past it, they all risk being burned by Scald, excluding the rare Toxicroak.

The biggest reason I think Milotic should be S-rank, however, is how constraining it can feel on building. You don't just need a Water-check, you need a Milotic answer. No, they are not the same thing. Most Milotic answers either detest chip from Ice Beam or Scald or cannot switch in directly due to a potential burn. I don't have to mention set up (unless you're Toxicroak) due to Haze either. Milotic is stupidly fat and just doesn't die. Even when you find yourself running countermeasures to it, nine times out of ten it will do something or just wall your team anyway.

For a tl;dr version, Milotic should be S-rank due to its splashability, imposing presence on the meta in general, and how valuable bulky Waters are right now. If you did read all this, thank you. That is all. Please do not pitchfork me.
 

Lilburr

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Happy to see this thread is finally up!! I like most of the rankings but I have a few thoughts I'd like to share on some of the current placements that I feel are a liiiiittle off.

Milotic: A -> S/S-: Juuno covered this already and I agree with p much all of her points. This thing invalidates so many mons in the tier that it's kinda ridiculous. In fact, after a quick scan through the A- through S rankings, the only things that it can't really switch into are Lucario, Rotom-Mow, Diggersby, Durant, Sirfetch'd, Haxorus and Mamoswine - some of which it can take on when statused thanks to Marvel Scale - and none of these can switch in on it either because of the threat of a Scald burn or an Ice Beam 2HKO in Rotom-Mow's case. It's so defining and restricting, and keeping it in A where it's only one subrank ahead of Vaporeon, its closest competitor, is vastly underselling it imo.

Polteageist: A- -> B+: This one might be controversial idk. I feel like Poltea, while on paper a massively threatening sweeper, is just so severely lacking in the current metagame. One strong hit while setting up is all it needs to be taken out by any priority move, of which we have multiple (first impression spammers, ice shard on mamo, shadow sneak on doublade, etc.). On top of this it doesn't really find good setup opportunities on any of the passive mons in the tier bar Weezing because they all either wall it (Umbreon), P/Haze it (Milo, Vap, Hippo), or just send it flying with a strong physical attack to put it in range of priority (Hippo again, Rhyperior, Bronzong)...
It also completely lacks ANY utility in the mid game regardless of its set, and only has Shell Smash going for it because anything else it would like to run is completely outclassed by the faster, bulkier and stronger Chandelure. It's a good mon in a vacuum, but just lacks so much that keeping it in A- is difficulty to justify. Too many teams are running Dark-types to combat Chandy and Doublade and our poor teapot just can't do anything about it.

Heliolisk: B+ -> A-: Heliolisk is such an amazing mon rn even with its flaws. Despite getting completely hardwalled by every Umbreon variant known to man, its ability to genuinely pressure Milotic (something very few mons can do rn), revenge SD Doublade thanks to its Sneak immunity, threaten out Weezing and use its coverage to choose its counters makes it super solid rn. It matches up really well vs a ton of top tier Ground-types too, beating Mamo and Rhyperior in a single shot and being able to take out weakened Hippos. It also gets a ton of free switches despite its poor bulk thanks to the prevalence of bulky waters that just do not threaten it much it all, and it can also come in on certain things like Choice-locked Chandelure (shadow ball) and Rotom-C (thunderbolt). Its bulk and secondary typing aren't nearly as good as Rotom-C's, of course, but imo its Speed tier and Water immunity without being weak to Ice make it much closer than a two subrank difference.


Other than these, I think this is a really good initial list! Well done to everyone involved n all that, and here's to a good gen :>
 

yeezyknows

Banned deucer.
Hey i'd just like to try to do my best to refute the milo to S talk in the 30m i have before class starts.

Yes, milo is a strong mon in the current meta, for sure A rank if not arguably A+

Yes, it can be hard for offense/BO to switch in on

Yes, it's bulky to where it walls a lot of viable mons in the current meta

However, there are several glaring detracting factors that ultimately prevent milotic from being a dominant, S rank mon.

The first is its relative frailty. Now, when I say this i'm not suggesting that milotic is frail as a whole. The opposite is true, it's incredibly bulky on both defensive and specially defensive ends. However, in the scope of the current meta, it doesn't actually wall the mons that you'd expect a mixed wall to wall. Look through A+, A, and A- in the VR. How many of these breakers does milotic actually switch in on? Chandelure? Milo loses to specs shadow ball and energy ball. Mamoswine? Milo loses to LO EQ. Reuniclus? Milotic loses to some of the more demonic creations like LO psychic and LO thunder. Diggersby? Milo loses to both CB and SD, particularly SD lum, which i've been loving recently. Durant? Milotic is 2hkoed barring misses. Haxorus? Milotic is 2hkoed by CB and doesn't beat DD on the initial switch-in. Rotom-C? Milotic loses to NP. Sirfetch'd? 2HKOs with CC. Gardevoir? 2HKOs after rocks or minor chip, likely wins a 1v1 if neither chip/rocks are in play because moonblast PP is greater than recover's. Lucario? 81% chance for jolly orb CC to OHKO.

The list legitimately goes on and on, but that's just A and its respective subranks. The fact remains that milotic does a middling job at actually walling these largely dominant and viable threats.

Now, the gripe about these mons not necessarily switching in on milotic is largely correct. A lot of these mons can't directly switch in on milotic, and that would be a problem were milotic not obscenely passive towards any non-HO build.

In the course of building BO/balance/fat balance/stall, you will have adequate countermeasures towards milo's offensive coverage in the form of pivots and/or walls. You will thus have opportunities to bring your offensive mons in on milotic for free because milotic can't break these mons.

Yes, you can say that its offensive counterplay can't switch in on it, but that's not how playing an actual game works. Even HO has means of getting mons in on milotic for free such as uturn/volt switch/teleport and just generally aggressive playing.

I'd write more but I don't want to be sniped and I have to walk to class soon.

Milotic is not dominant enough defensively to warrant being part of S rank.

-uu councillor yeezy k

rest in peace kobe bryant
 

Juno

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Forgive me if there’s any errors, I’m writing this on mobile
The first is its relative frailty. Now, when I say this i'm not suggesting that milotic is frail as a whole. The opposite is true, it's incredibly bulky on both defensive and specially defensive ends. However, in the scope of the current meta, it doesn't actually wall the mons that you'd expect a mixed wall to wall. Look through A+, A, and A- in the VR. How many of these breakers does milotic actually switch in on? Chandelure? Milo loses to specs shadow ball and energy ball. Mamoswine? Milo loses to LO EQ. Reuniclus? Milotic loses to some of the more demonic creations like LO psychic and LO thunder. Diggersby? Milo loses to both CB and SD, particularly SD lum, which i've been loving recently. Durant? Milotic is 2hkoed barring misses. Haxorus? Milotic is 2hkoed by CB and doesn't beat DD on the initial switch-in. Rotom-C? Milotic loses to NP. Sirfetch'd? 2HKOs with CC. Gardevoir? 2HKOs after rocks or minor chip, likely wins a 1v1 if neither chip/rocks are in play because moonblast PP is greater than recover's. Lucario? 81% chance for jolly orb CC to OHKO.
First off, all of the threats you mention do not switch into Milotic securely. Gardevoir and Reuniclus sort of do, but that’s about it. Speaking of the latter, I have never seen any run Thunder, which is useless considering you beat Milo 1v1 as you said. It lives an Earthquake from Mamoswine and Diggersby if my calcs aren’t off and does a chunk back with Scald. It also actually walls them if it has Marvel Scale up, which isnhese examples are shaky at best with the exception of the former two. Yes, they beat Milotic in a 1v1 situation, but not only is that what five other teammates are for, but only two of them switch in.


The list legitimately goes on and on, but that's just A and its respective subranks. The fact remains that milotic does a middling job at actually walling these largely dominant and viable threats.

Now, the gripe about these mons not necessarily switching in on milotic is largely correct. A lot of these mons can't directly switch in on milotic, and that would be a problem were milotic not obscenely passive towards any non-HO build.
In what world does Milotic do a "middling job" at walling half the tier? If it didn’t do a good job then I wouldn’t even be making this nom. I also don’t get how its "obscenely passive" like you say it is. In some situations it does just sit there and do nothing, but its no Mantine. Scald + Ice Beam annoys most of our mons, as I said, and the ones that can switch in like Heliolisk don't take chip or Toxic Spikes well. Toxicroak is an exception but I've barely seen it so :bloblul:

In the course of building BO/balance/fat balance/stall, you will have adequate countermeasures towards milo's offensive coverage in the form of pivots and/or walls. You will thus have opportunities to bring your offensive mons in on milotic for free because milotic can't break these mons.
Yeah okay, let's put stall aside because...its stall, you shouldn't expect Milotic to provide much utility vs fat teams. List one pivot that switches into Milotic half-decently, and don't say Heliolisk because that's obvious. Rotom-Cut also takes one Ice Beam and is limited in dealing with Milotic for basically the rest of the game due to not having reliable recovery. Most walls also just play PP stall wars with Milotic, which doesn't amount to getting anything done. You're vastly overselling how annoying Milotic is to switch into. Some offensive mons can also lose to a burned Milotic due to Marvel Scale, as mentioned earlier.

Yes, you can say that its offensive counterplay can't switch in on it, but that's not how playing an actual game works. Even HO has means of getting mons in on milotic for free such as uturn/volt switch/teleport and just generally aggressive playing.

Milotic is not dominant enough defensively to warrant being part of S rank.
Milotic shouldn't be switching in on any of our pivots for one thing, I don't even know why Volt is mentioned when Milotic has no business not switching out on them in the first place. Like the only pivots that your point applies to are Inteleon and Noivern because those are the only ones Milotic switches into reliably. Once again I don't know how you can say its not defensively dominant enough when its infamous for never dying and being extremely hard to kill.
 

solonor24

Tournament Banned
maybe there is something i'm missing but I think Doublade at S rank is a little bit of an exaggeration. Here's why:

1. The most common rockers used in this tier are Hippowdon and Rhyperior. Good luck getting Doublade to break through those kids.

2. It literally gets shut down by two of the most common pokemon in the tier right now: Umbreon and Milotic. One foul play will send your Doublade to heaven (after an SD), whilst scald + haze says goodnight to any dream of a setup/clean with it. One of these two pokemon are on about 90% of uu teams created at the current moment i'm writing this.

3. Its incredibly easy to chip down with any hazards up. Even with spdef investment, you are taking 20+ damage from a frosmoth ice beam every time you switch it in and then you as the doublade user are in a bad spot, as your forced to either do 0 damage to the incoming wall or be forced into an aggressive play that could easily be read by an opponent (this is just 1 example of many)

4. Has 4MSS. Your practically either forced to run sneak on it as its only ghost stab which is pathetic, or pair it with another mon with prio and run sd with no prio. Both fail to break a lot of the current metagame.

5. An argument that is more based on opinion here, but the mons at A+ play a role on almost all teams that is reliable, similarly with doublade. S rank implies that its above and beyond all of these pokemon, which i disagree with.

It is still a good Pokemon in this metagame but for the reasons mentioned above I feel it should be A+ or arguably even A rank. But come on ladies and gents, who builds a team and goes "oh no i lose to Doublade". its more like "ok Doublade walls x pokemon on my team"
 
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Want to add some of my own nominations and talk about some other nominations of my own

Doublade: Keep in S
I think its easy to miss just how much impact Doublade has on the metagame, because while doesn't have one super flashy characteristic about it, Doublade has a variety of traits that keep this mon at S. To put it simply, Doublade's typing is actually bonkers in this metagame, both defensively and offensively. While Doublade doesn't have any immediate access to HP recovery, Doublade is surprisingly resistant to chip, resisting rocks, and completely ignoring T-Spikes. Ghost typing is absolutely invaluable, as it serves as a spinblocker and cleaner/revenge killer, as Shadow Sneak STAB is an incredibly threatening check on some of the top threats of the metagame (Reun, Chandy, Polt, Espeon, Sigi, the list goes on) Furthermore, it even sets up on some of these mons, and can clean sweep through offensive teams at +2 or more. Doublade should not be switching in on walls necessarily, and should be used as an offensive pivot to switch into a myriad of resisted moves. In general, defensive mons like Umbreon should be switching into it, not the other way around. But when that happens...

252+ Atk Doublade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 236-278 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

In short, with Doublade's typing, cleaning capabilities, and bulk, Doublade firmly cements itself as one of the best mons in the tier.

Xatu: Drop to B
Maybe I've been using an incorrect set, but I've tried Xatu in multiple different teams to middling success. Xatu is a defensive pivot, and being able to bring in a wallbreaker for free with Teleport is absolutely insane. And while it can switch in to some of the more passive mons, it can easily be chipped by status by the likes of Milotic and Vaporeon, or even get 3HKOd by uninvested attacks, meaning it can only switch in once, where it then has to Roost again. With 65/70/70 bulk, Xatu cannot switch into anything remotely offensive. Its typing is not doing it any favors, being destroyed by some common metagame mons like the aforementioned Doublade, Weavile, and Drapion. It has passable SpAtk, and can spread status with T-Wave, but without an offensive item it is really hard for Xatu to really threaten anything on its own. While I really badly want to see Xatu shine, the meta is just too offensive for Xatu to not be deadweight in some matchups.

Inteleon: Rise to A-
There's been a lot of hype around Gardevoir, specifically the Specs set. Inteleon also has an amazing specs set, with a couple of unique niches over Gardevoir. Inteleon has an amazing speed tier, and with a timid nature it can outspeed mons like Heliolisk , Espeon, and other similarly speedy mons. In addition, Inteleon has U-Turn, which allows it to gain momentum for offensive teams after it forces a switch. Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/Dark Pulse is adept at covering a wide portion of the metagame, and can even break certain walls, especially after Torrent.

252 SpA Choice Specs Torrent Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Torrent Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 828-974 (197.1 - 231.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 244-288 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Inteleon's main problem are the two bulky waters running the metagame, Milotic and Vaporeon. However, Inteleon does have a limited amount of counterplay by chipping them with coverage moves or U-Turning out. After removing these mons, inteleon has no problem clean sweeping. Despite this drawback, Inteleon is certainly worthy of a rise.
 

A Cake Wearing A Hat

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So what's the deal with Coalosal? Why is it that low and even lower than some RU Mons despite being UU?

Is it like a DPPt Electivire Case where it stayed OU despite the fact it's bad?
Bad typing, bad stats, only reason it's used is because ladder spams anything with both rocks and spin even though it's not a good idea to run both on one mon
 

vivalospride

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First off, all of the threats you mention do not switch into Milotic securely. Gardevoir and Reuniclus sort of do, but that’s about it. Speaking of the latter, I have never seen any run Thunder, which is useless considering you beat Milo 1v1 as you said. It lives an Earthquake from Mamoswine and Diggersby if my calcs aren’t off and does a chunk back with Scald. It also actually walls them if it has Marvel Scale up, which isnhese examples are shaky at best with the exception of the former two. Yes, they beat Milotic in a 1v1 situation, but not only is that what five other teammates are for, but only two of them switch in.
I’d imagine the endless list of calcs and situations he listed off is in direct response to your claim of “Milo sits on most of the tier”, in which whether these threats reliably switch into scald is kinda irrelevant, especially since that is just not a realistic in-game scenario in the first place as I’m p sure anyone hard switching Lucario into Milotic is gonna be clowned.

Now, the gripe about these mons not necessarily switching in on milotic is largely correct. A lot of these mons can't directly switch in on milotic, and that would be a problem were milotic not obscenely passive towards any non-HO build.
He does indeed directly respond to this in the post you're even responding to tho.

In what world does Milotic do a "middling job" at walling half the tier? If it didn’t do a good job then I wouldn’t even be making this nom.
I understand that you disagree with his statement but the fact that you made the nom isn't exactly concrete evidence against what he's saying. Milotic has got a solid water typing which is good but doesn't offer much of a variety of resistances, meaning most things with setup beat it if it comes in on them (which is supported by the wall of examples yeezy k mentioned).

Also the idea that Milotic is restricting upon building is kinda confusing, I don't know where that came from or who is trying to build gen8uu and sobbing about not being able to fit a "Milotic answer", but I haven't personally experienced that yet, maybe I'm a crackhead tho. Another thing is the fact that Milotic can be difficult for HO teams to come in on, this is true, but the idea that Milotic is specifically even good vs HO I think is a bit of a stretch. As mentioned earlier, most things with setup can overwhelm Milotic to some extent and Milotic doesn't really come in for free on any HO team I've made in recent memory, that wasn't by design or something I thought about while building, but here's one as an example: https://pokepast.es/5be1d6c545f24f91

This team is a dece example of what a lot of HOs across a bunch of gens and tiers have looked like, cheesy shit with a lot of setup. Milotic on paper is a threat in the sense that nothing switches into it consistently, but for that situation to even occur Milotic would have to get onto the field vs something that it forces out, which is a situation I simply don't see happening, I think this applies to most offensive teams bc setup comes with them by nature, on a lot of BOs I'm sure you'll have to dodge a scald burn or be in a lot of uncomfortable situations bc of Milotic if you're not properly prepared with some guaranteed answer of some sort, but that still doesn't = Milotic in S.

Why are we even putting so much weight on defensive Milotic as an offensive threat in the first place btw? Doesn't that sound kind of silly when the main argument is that it "sits on half the tier" but the rebuttal to someone denying that claim is that "those don't switch into it". There's a big difference between things that kinda make sense when you say it out loud and what's happening in the games, whether they be on the ladder or anywhere else. It does a lot but not much of it is done to an incredible extent, and most of this isn't taking Marvel Scale into play but again it's dumb to just assume your Milotic is gonna be statused unless you're running Flame Orb which makes it more prone to chip. I simply don't see us rising Milotic to S, if you wanna try to get it to A+ that's definitely a lot more realistic atm.

No one is trying to say Milotic is bad bc it OBVIOUSLY is not, it's incredible, S is just not realistic for it at this current point in time imo.

On another note, why is Mantine A-? D:

RIP Mamba and Gigi
 
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Feliburn

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I agree with the sentiment that Doublade doesnt really perform as an S rank Pokemon currently, to me it always fails to completely wall anything or actually kill something, especially considering it can't even really damage Weezing without risking Will-O-Wisp sets that are p much everywhere, which to me it seems absurd as a steel type. Idk I'm probs being too harsh on it cause I'm normally very high on Doublade cause of the sick bulk but to me it's an A rank mon at best.

I also believe Milotic to be considered an S rank, or rather not really S rank, but I think it is the best defensive glue in the tier. I understand where yeezy is coming from with mentioning monsters like Haxorus and Sirfetch'd and proving it doesn't really wall them but from my experience playing, facing a Milotic always means I have to get in Sirfetch'd and risk a burn while trading vs it, same could be said with the other mons he listed cause they are the heaviest hitters in the tier and even then Milotic forces trades with them, to me it just shows how well it manages to glue a team together cause u also gotta consider the other teammates with it, like I dont think Milotic will ever be your sole Haxorus check and even then most of the time you are forced to get it in to kill Milotic because no other mon has the ability to break it. My point is Milo is fat as fuck and glues almost every single team together, idk if you can consider that S rank but I personally see it as above other mons in terms of viability.

Don't kill the passing ru player for posting :o
 

Estarossa

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Don't want to make too many noms with Home coming out soon, and would rather just focus on one really important one atm, and voice support for another.

:swsh/umbreon: A -> A+

Balance teams are super dominant right now, and Umbreon is arguably the best Balance Pokemon atm, being a key part in checking major threats like Polteageist, Chandelure and Sigilyph, while massively enabling other incredibly good Pokemon like Weezing with its wish passing and general great type synergy between the two.

Recent techs in most Umbreon's running Taunt instead of Yawn have made it even better by allowing it to put in a lot of work versus opposing fat teams, with Fast Taunt Umbreon's also becoming more common to allow it to shut down the ever present Milotic (as well as other fat waters like Mantine/Vaporeon), and doing it far more consistently than other breakers which either struggle to switch into it, or to break through it if it gets statused due to Marvel scale.

What makes Umbreon a worthy A+ candidate right now really is just the incredible role compression it provides between checking dangerous special attackers, shutting down common SR setters like Rhyp/Giga/Hippo with Taunt, Wish passing, and breaking defensive cores with taunt, while not being particularly passive due to most Pokemon that threaten it disliking switching into Foul Play, or being scouted with Protect (CB Sirfetch'd/Pangoro), while the few Pokemon that could freely take advantage of it like Lucario can still be punished on the switch in with Taunt.

:swsh/milotic: A -> S agree

Milotic really is one of the most dominant Pokemon right now, being an incredible glue mon for Balance and BO teams alike, and walling a considerable portion of the tier. It is also by far the most constricting Pokemon in the builder currently, and I 100% agree with Juuno that you need Milotic checks, not just water checks on any team, with most checks being unable to switch in directly due to scald burns / ice beam, and Milotic typically just outliving them anyway, and the loss of Rotom-C (which was a mediocre Milotic check anyway) will only make this worse, especially when Milotic takes advantage of so many common metagame staples like Doublade, Rhyperior, Noivern, and Hippowdon.

I do believe Marvel Scale is something that 100% needs to be considered with Milotic too, as with Fat waters being present on nearly every single team currently, getting yourself burned by Scald really isn't an unlikely event, and Milotic can still prosper from single layer Toxic Spikes too, while Marvel Scale basically invalidates Pokemon like Mamoswine that it would otherwise struggle to deal with as well.

The biggest evidence for why Milotic really is just so deserving of S rank right now though is how many matches have players bring multiple forms of Milotic counterplay, for it to simply be invalidated by Burns (physical breakers or toxic users eg. salazzle), or even the more longlasting options like Roserade / Heliolisk simply getting outlasted, with a lot of games just devolving into Milotic vs Milotic matchups, like in Accel vs yeezy for masters https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1055881544.
 
Hi. I don't really frequent smogon but I feel like I've alted around enough with UU this gen to have a solid grasp of the meta. Also a certain vr host wanted me to get more involved with posting so yeah here we are. First I want to comment on some of the nominations people are making.

Up to A+: Agree Up to S: Disagree
I think Milotic is the tier's best defensive glue and is a key part of multiple defensive backbones. It has amazing synergy with common forces like Umbreon and Rhyperior and puts a lot of its offensive counterplay in tight situations due to its STAB and Ice Beam being fairly hard to switch into. I think it's very defining but not to the extent of an S rank rn. As other posters have pointed out it has a hard time coming in safely against a lot of highly offensive structures, which this meta rewards, and can be easy to overwhelm given UU's bevy of strong breakers and efficient setup mons. It forces trades with breakers like Diggersby and Sirfetch'd, for instance, but can often lose the 1v1 matchup. I find that once it's in, it can be a serious nuisance to adequately pivot into and deal with, but a lot of builds just don't provide reliable opportunities for it to just come in since its typing doesn't provide as many useful resistances for the meta as something like Umbreon or Hippowdon. I also think Vaporeon, although worse, gives it decent competition on the merit of its Water immunity and access to Wish, which is pretty clutch in a metagame that needs stuff without recovery like Rhyperior, Weezing, and Bronzong to constantly pivot into lots of different threats. Stuff like Toxicroak and Roserade is also getting more exposure which can be hard for it to work around. Milotic is amazing and a top 10 mon, but it ruins into enough shortcomings and has enough competition in its role that I don't believe S to properly define its place in UU right now.

Down to A+ : Disagree
I definitely understand where the Doublade drop sentiment is coming from but I still think the utility it provides is top notch. With its typing, coverage, and bulk it forces stuff like Lucario and Durant to stay on their toes while discouraging a lot of its counterplay, like Rhyperior and Umbreon, from directly switching in. Its defensive utility is really key in a metagame with a ton of very strong physical wallbreakers, given that it forces trades with and can often beat a lot of physical if at full health, like Mamoswine, Rhyperior, Durant, Haxorus, Weavile, etc. I find its argument for S similar to the Milotic argument in a sense. It's a serious nuisance to reliably break through if you don't have either a bulky Water-type or Hippowdon. Once it's in play, it's very difficult to efficiently work around. The thing I think it has over Milotic in this sense is that Doublade has way more switch-in opportunities in my opinion, although Milotic does have reliable recovery working in its favor. Idk, I just find in looking through the A and high B ranks that very few Pokemon in this metagame have a reliable Doublade matchup and will often struggle to clench the 1v1 due to its bulk and other tools. It's the best emergency check to a huge number of top physical attackers. It checks a lot of key utility boxes in this metagame and is applicable to nearly every build. I just find it rare that Doublade won't function as one of the more defining aspects of any match it sees use in, and S reflects that.

Those topics are both doozies so I'll try keeping my actual noms short, but here's some other stuff I think should happen since not enough people are talking about mons other than the two mentioned above (seriously let's pay some attention to the full rankings!!) Here's my other stuff..

A- -> B+
This looks weird in the same rank as Vaporeon. On paper it can provide a nicer check to stuff like Lucario, Mamoswine, and Sirfetch'd but its shoddy defense stat allows these threats to pretty easily overwhelm it. This is made worse by its reliance on boots since it misses out on passive leftovers recovery which can be so vital. I also think it struggles to provide the same additional utility as other defensive waters since although it has Haze and flying-type stab it lacks the room for or access to key traits in Milotic and Vaporeon, like Ice Beam and Wish respectively.

B -> B+
Gigalith provides so much defensive utility right now and easily has scenarios in which it can edge out Rhyperior and Hippowdon. It's a much more reliable pivot into Chandelure, Gardevoir, Indeedee, and Noivern and despite lacking Ground STAB or SD can still work around its greater passivity with tools like Heavy Slam for Weezing. It feels the safer pick in a lot of scenarios and can patch up a lot of weaknesses really well on bulky backbones with Umbreon and Milotic. It's also one of the best answers to Ninetales, a seriously threatening Pokemon to lots of bulky offenses and balances, the meta has to offer. It runs into issues but its ability to better check the bevy of threatening special attackers in the tier than its competition is seriously valuable and rocks are obviously super hard to come by in this meta.

C+ -> B- or B
Not much to say here really. I feel like it's been getting used on ladder more and it frankly has an amazing matchup against a lot of defensive structures. Reliably pivoting into Milotic and Vaporeon is a surprisingly hard tool to come by, and its ability to bypass checks depending on whether its SD or NP gives it a fair amount of versatility and unpredictability. Way better than a lot of what's in C+.

C+ -> C
This doesn't really feel up to snuff with the rest of C+. It struggles efficiently breaking metagame staples like Chandelure, Doublade, and Milotic and provides very little defensive utility despite its ability since it can't consistently pivot in on stuff if it wants to set up and has a pretty shite typing anyway. It just feels like team structures are often very well suited to take on Frosmoth as opposed to early beta, especially since options like Ninetales and Gigalith are getting used more, priority is everywhere, and its Speed is still kinda low after a boost.
 

TDK

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I bowed out from contributing to the initial rankings because I was busy and hadn't played enough to feel like I should offer my opinion, but after playing a good amount I'd like to add my thoughts.

:Doublade:
I think Doublade is really not that great. I'm not gonna detail you on all of its faults, but I really think the metagame is just too unkind to it. Everything is pretty much set around so that it can handle Doublade just fine. It's very easy to have surefire counterplay against; Sirfetch'd is as good as it can get offensively, Haze Milotic is pretty much the best defensive check, lots of good bulky Grounds get in the way of it really easily, and a multitude of really good checks the tier has to offer, such as Mamoswine, Diggersby, and Umbreon. Its speed is obviously its biggest flaw, making it incredibly susceptible to things like Umbreon, Vaporeon, and even preventing it from even threatening Galarian Weezing, as Feliburn touched upon earlier. It really almost never sweeps unless you face something truly atrocious. Its defensive utility is solid, but lack of recovery is really so killer and Wish support is not an adequate remedy to that. Defensively, it offers a lot. It's a viable Steel-types in the metagame, which is huge with how few there are. Its typing is incredible for defensive purposes, and it is most definitely an incredible offensive glue. I think S is very much so overselling it, and believe it should drop.

:Milotic:
I thought people were overhyping it a tad before I really got into playing the post big goons meta (Crawdaunt / Gengar / Obstagoon), but I was wrong. Milotic is honestly just so good, its bulk is so incredible, so few Pokemon have access to Toxic that the fact Refresh got nuked is near meaningless at the moment, Grass-types not named Roserade are pretty niche, Scald is bonkers, etc... It's just really good. I've even seen it Scald Umbreon to trigger Marvel Scald, thus allowing it to wall things like Diggersby, Lucario, and Mamoswine, which is pretty wild and hilariously effective. Milotic is also, sillily enough, one of the most reliable means of beating Noivern. Noivern is honestly pretty annoying in a vacuum considering its movepool, so having a bulky Pokemon with Ice Beam is extremely clutch. I don't think Juuno's take is actually that crazy anymore, I feel Milotic is most certainly A+ material, and if Doublade isn't S, I'm not really sure what would be and would be a league above Milotic. Not saying it should be, but I think it's a pretty fair stance. A is really underselling it right now.

:Roserade:
Tying into the Milotic discussion, Roserade is pristine right now. It's the best offensive Milotic check possible, it's really annoying to switch into, and it also has access to Spikes. Yeah, no Hidden Power kinda blows, but in this metagame you wouldn't really run it in the first place. Synthesis / Spikes / Sludge Bomb / Giga Drain @ Life Orb is all you need. Obviously it has its issues, like somehow its a special attacker that lets Durant in for free (??) as well as the fact its physical bulk is quite abysmal. There are a lot of ways to handle it, but I feel Spikes are super good and it's a really good Spike setter, on top of the fact it's the best way to beat Milotic without using either one of a) sac mon then bring in offensive mon b) pray i don't get scald burned or c) reactionary defensive switchins. I think it should rise.

:Diggersby:
Diggersby I feel is being undersold in A. I think it's on par with Mamoswine, but the two offer a lot of different tools to a team. I'm not going to get into "Well, you, see Diggersby is actually stronger than Mamoswine, thanks to its ability, Huge Power, which doubles its Attack stat..." BUT Diggersby is really strong, and I feel people are sleeping on it. Compared to Mamoswine, it learns SD which can be huge, coupled with its already great power + priority quick attack, it can also run Agility which is more niche but still can be potent, but the thing I like the most about it is its Scarf set. Scarf Diggersby has been absolutely killer in my time laddering the past week or so. While, obviously, a lot of teams have both a Ground immune and a Ghost-type, thus neutralizing its STABs, they are still not safe switchins, and during the course of a game, Scarf Diggersby can be a very potent cleaner. I've found many instances where it ends up cleaning with either Body Slam or EQ. Its filler move also offers a ton of utility; Ice Punch or Spikes. Ice Punch nets the OHKO vs Noivern, which can be huge (I can't say how many times Noivern has switched into Diggersby while laddering + my own got sniped by one), while Spikes.. well are Spikes. I didn't click it many times while laddering but when I did I won the game off of the fact I had it. Spikes are super cool because getting them up vs bulkier builds or later on in the game to help Diggersby clean itself is really sick. I think this Mon is A+ material.

:Reuniclus:
Reuniclus just seemed way better in the post big goons meta; two big Dark-types with Knock Off gone. But still, Reuniclus isn't A+ material I think. It is one of the few Pokemon that can actually shrug off Milotic burns with ease, but you have to run more awkward sets to beat Milotic in the first place thanks to Haze. The metagame is not very kind to it; the strong Pokemon are REALLY strong. Mamoswine, Diggersby, Chandelure, Haxorus, and Durant all pummel it even if it gets the opportunity to CM up. Not to mention Doublade and Umbreon. A+ is a bit of a stretch I think.

:Gardevoir:
man Specs Gardevoir is SO GOOD. This tier is sooo lacking in good Fairy-type resists, most teams only use Weezing, Doublade, or Chandelure, when that really is not enough, although there really aren't any good options for it in the first place. Specs is actually absurdly strong, it's the most fun mon to use for me. I imagine Scarf is pretty solid, because I feel there aren't too many good Scarf options, but yeah, use Specs. This Pokemon is definitely A material.

:Bronzong:
IP was right: CB Bronzong is kinda good. Much like in OU, with a lack of Z Moves and Mega evolutions, Trick is incredibly underrated and under-explored in my opinion. I've been using Trick CB Bronzong with SR and a defensive spread to much success. Can also run Toxic Orb or another item. Its typing + Levitate is incredible in this metagame, with Diggersby and Mamoswine running rampant. Lack of Toxic isn't even a big deal with Trick in my opinion, and the defensive utility it offers is great. Really though, Trick is good, more people should try it on other more things. Bronzong should rise though, it's not that bad.

:Durant:
Hustle sucks.

:Polteageist:
Really not that good. It's super annoying in the teambuilder, but I don't think it's the only Pokemon that makes UU restricting like it is or require Dark-types. B+ is more fitting.

:Sigilyph: :Pangoro:
What do these do over the alternatives? Like, what does Sigilyph do that either Gardevoir or Reuniclus don't? I know the speed but it struggles with Umbreon way more than the other two and is way weaker. Once it gets Defog sure. Pangoro I'm not sure why you'd use it over Sirfetch'd, or even Bewear I guess. I feel both these mons are little too highly ranked.

:Indeedee: :Arcanine: :Copperajah: :Froslass: :Rillaboom: should drop
:Shiftry: :Pyukumuku: :Toxicroak: :Torkoal: :Charizard: should rise


too early to rank Galarian Corsola or Dracozolt but I don't think either will make a huge impact on the rankings. Maybe Corsola lowers Lucario and the non-Sirfetch'd fighters. Maybe Dracozolt makes Pyukumuku worse when you could be using Quagsire. Who knows.
 
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Corthius

synthetic love
is a Pre-Contributor
I bowed out from contributing to the initial rankings because I was busy and hadn't played enough to feel like I should offer my opinion, but after playing a good amount I'd like to add my thoughts.

:Doublade:
I think Doublade is really not that great. I'm not gonna detail you on all of its faults, but I really think the metagame is just too unkind to it. Everything is pretty much set around so that it can handle Doublade just fine. It's very easy to have surefire counterplay against; Sirfetch'd is as good as it can get offensively, Haze Milotic is pretty much the best defensive check, lots of good bulky Grounds get in the way of it really easily, and a multitude of really good checks the tier has to offer, such as Mamoswine, Diggersby, and Umbreon. Its speed is obviously its biggest flaw, making it incredibly susceptible to things like Umbreon, Vaporeon, and even preventing it from even threatening Galarian Weezing, as Feliburn touched upon earlier. It really almost never sweeps unless you face something truly atrocious. Its defensive utility is solid, but lack of recovery is really so killer and Wish support is not an adequate remedy to that. Defensively, it offers a lot. It's a viable Steel-types in the metagame, which is huge with how few there are. Its typing is incredible for defensive purposes, and it is most definitely an incredible offensive glue. I think S is very much so overselling it, and believe it should drop.

:Milotic:
I thought people were overhyping it a tad before I really got into playing the post big goons meta (Crawdaunt / Gengar / Obstagoon), but I was wrong. Milotic is honestly just so good, its bulk is so incredible, so few Pokemon have access to Toxic that the fact Refresh got nuked is near meaningless at the moment, Grass-types not named Roserade are pretty niche, Scald is bonkers, etc... It's just really good. I've even seen it Scald Umbreon to trigger Marvel Scald, thus allowing it to wall things like Diggersby, Lucario, and Mamoswine, which is pretty wild and hilariously effective. Milotic is also, sillily enough, one of the most reliable means of beating Noivern. Noivern is honestly pretty annoying in a vacuum considering its movepool, so having a bulky Pokemon with Ice Beam is extremely clutch. I don't think Juuno's take is actually that crazy anymore, I feel Milotic is most certainly A+ material, and if Doublade isn't S, I'm not really sure what would be and would be a league above Milotic. Not saying it should be, but I think it's a pretty fair stance. A is really underselling it right now.

:Roserade:
Tying into the Milotic discussion, Roserade is pristine right now. It's the best offensive Milotic check possible, it's really annoying to switch into, and it also has access to Spikes. Yeah, no Hidden Power kinda blows, but in this metagame you wouldn't really run it in the first place. Synthesis / Spikes / Sludge Bomb / Giga Drain @ Life Orb is all you need. Obviously it has its issues, like somehow its a special attacker that lets Durant in for free (??) as well as the fact its physical bulk is quite abysmal. There are a lot of ways to handle it, but I feel Spikes are super good and it's a really good Spike setter, on top of the fact it's the best way to beat Milotic without using either one of a) sac mon then bring in offensive mon b) pray i don't get scald burned or c) reactionary defensive switchins. I think it should rise.

:Diggersby:
Diggersby I feel is being undersold in A. I think it's on par with Mamoswine, but the two offer a lot of different tools to a team. I'm not going to get into "Well, you, see Diggersby is actually stronger than Mamoswine, thanks to its ability, Huge Power, which doubles its Attack stat..." BUT Diggersby is really strong, and I feel people are sleeping on it. Compared to Mamoswine, it learns SD which can be huge, coupled with its already great power + priority quick attack, it can also run Agility which is more niche but still can be potent, but the thing I like the most about it is its Scarf set. Scarf Diggersby has been absolutely killer in my time laddering the past week or so. While, obviously, a lot of teams have both a Ground immune and a Ghost-type, thus neutralizing its STABs, they are still not safe switchins, and during the course of a game, Scarf Diggersby can be a very potent cleaner. I've found many instances where it ends up cleaning with either Body Slam or EQ. Its filler move also offers a ton of utility; Ice Punch or Spikes. Ice Punch nets the OHKO vs Noivern, which can be huge (I can't say how many times Noivern has switched into Diggersby while laddering + my own got sniped by one), while Spikes.. well are Spikes. I didn't click it many times while laddering but when I did I won the game off of the fact I had it. Spikes are super cool because getting them up vs bulkier builds or later on in the game to help Diggersby clean itself is really sick. I think this Mon is A+ material.

:Reuniclus:
Reuniclus just seemed way better in the post big goons meta; two big Dark-types with Knock Off gone. But still, Reuniclus isn't A+ material I think. It is one of the few Pokemon that can actually shrug off Milotic burns with ease, but you have to run more awkward sets to beat Milotic in the first place thanks to Haze. The metagame is not very kind to it; the strong Pokemon are REALLY strong. Mamoswine, Diggersby, Chandelure, Haxorus, and Durant all pummel it even if it gets the opportunity to CM up. Not to mention Doublade and Umbreon. A+ is a bit of a stretch I think.

:Gardevoir:
man Specs Gardevoir is SO GOOD. This tier is sooo lacking in good Fairy-type resists, most teams only use Weezing, Doublade, or Chandelure, when that really is not enough, although there really aren't any good options for it in the first place. Specs is actually absurdly strong, it's the most fun mon to use for me. I imagine Scarf is pretty solid, because I feel there aren't too many good Scarf options, but yeah, use Specs. This Pokemon is definitely A material.

:Bronzong:
IP was right: CB Bronzong is kinda good. Much like in OU, with a lack of Z Moves and Mega evolutions, Trick is incredibly underrated and under-explored in my opinion. I've been using Trick CB Bronzong with SR and a defensive spread to much success. Can also run Toxic Orb or another item. Its typing + Levitate is incredible in this metagame, with Diggersby and Mamoswine running rampant. Lack of Toxic isn't even a big deal with Trick in my opinion, and the defensive utility it offers is great. Really though, Trick is good, more people should try it on other more things. Bronzong should rise though, it's not that bad.

:Durant:
Hustle sucks.

:Polteageist:
Really not that good. It's super annoying in the teambuilder, but I don't think it's the only Pokemon that makes UU restricting like it is or require Dark-types. B+ is more fitting.

:Sigilyph: :Pangoro:
What do these do over the alternatives? Like, what does Sigilyph do that either Gardevoir or Reuniclus don't? I know the speed but it struggles with Umbreon way more than the other two and is way weaker. Once it gets Defog sure. Pangoro I'm not sure why you'd use it over Sirfetch'd, or even Bewear I guess. I feel both these mons are little too highly ranked.

:Indeedee: :Arcanine: :Copperajah: :Froslass: :Rillaboom: should drop
:Shiftry: :Pyukumuku: :Toxicroak: :Torkoal: :Charizard: should rise


too early to rank Galarian Corsola or Dracozolt but I don't think either will make a huge impact on the rankings. Maybe Corsola lowers Lucario and the non-Sirfetch'd fighters. Maybe Dracozolt makes Pyukumuku worse when you could be using Quagsire. Who knows.
I think the fact that everyone was hyping Reuniclus into A+ rank and Pangoro doesnt care about any Acid Armor shenanigans made it end up that high
 
:milotic: Milotic A --> S. No, not A+. S. :milotic:

This may seem like a stretch but I honestly don't know why Milotic isn't S. It's easily the second-best mon in the tier and should be at the same rank as Doublade. Arguably its even better than Doublade but that's another matter that I won't get into. I'm also not going to ask why Hippowdon is ranked above it...

If you take a look at the VR right now, Milotic pretty much sits on half the tier while also having the ability to fit on virtually any playstyle, a trait shared only by - arguably - Weezing-Galar and Doublade. Bulky Waters are pretty much mandatory right now and having a mon that can fit on pretty much any archetype you want barring HO is really variable in this meta. Scald + Ice Beam with decent base Special Attack also means that its surprisingly annoying to switch into. Even Heliolisk, arguably one of its best exploiters, hates being chipped repeatedly by Ice Beam, especially if its Life Orb.

The upsides of Milotic greatly outweigh its downsides, a key trait in any S rank mon. Putting aside other bulky waters where it delves down to a PP stall war, switch-ins are surprisingly limited. Tsareena, Roserade, and Rotom-Mow are 2HKOed by Ice Beam, though the former two can just run Synthesis to resolve this. As I mentioned earlier Heliolisk doesn't like switching into repeated Ice Beams, and while physical wallbreakers can break past it, they all risk being burned by Scald, excluding the rare Toxicroak.

The biggest reason I think Milotic should be S-rank, however, is how constraining it can feel on building. You don't just need a Water-check, you need a Milotic answer. No, they are not the same thing. Most Milotic answers either detest chip from Ice Beam or Scald or cannot switch in directly due to a potential burn. I don't have to mention set up (unless you're Toxicroak) due to Haze either. Milotic is stupidly fat and just doesn't die. Even when you find yourself running countermeasures to it, nine times out of ten it will do something or just wall your team anyway.

For a tl;dr version, Milotic should be S-rank due to its splashability, imposing presence on the meta in general, and how valuable bulky Waters are right now. If you did read all this, thank you. That is all. Please do not pitchfork me.
absolutely agree with this, i always fear seeing milotic on the team preview bc its super tough to take out

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(Pretty new to Smogon and im not a great writer but might as well share my thoughts)

:Doublade: Doublade ---->A+. Agree
while Doublade is solid and has great defense when paired with eviolite as well great attack, swords dance, and shadow sneak to make up for its lack of speed, it really isn't that scary against most teams. Normal types can outspeed and dish out damage stop it dead in its tracks. Heliolisk does 60% with thunderbolt and is immune to shadow sneak. The abundance of bulky ground types, (mainly Diggersby and Hippowdown however this includes Mamoswine and Rhyperior) that can eat a hit and hit back, as well as bulky waters especially because they are able to do much more with the fact that the water mons of the tier are special attackers and scald can burn, making Doublade a lot less scary. Knock off, burns, and Milotic especially with haze, also completely check Doublade. I don't think its nearly as powerful as people think it is. Even if it can be a solid switch for most physical attackers, it still needs swords dance to get going and shadow sneak can often be weak enough that anything not weak to it can eat it and hit back

:Heliolisk: Heliolisk B+ --->A- Agree
Heliolisk is a pretty scary pokemon in the tier and with dry skin and solid electric moves is a great check for Milotic and other water types in the tier. It also has some coverage for ground types even though it mainly loses to those. It can punch holes in a lot of the current meta although there are a lot of them. Its main downside is that there aren't too many Pokemon it can switch on, but there are quite a few who cant switch in on it either.

:Dracozolt: Dracozolt: B+ Scarfed Dracozolt with bolt beak can be devastating to a lot of the tier. even Umbreon gets easily 2hko'd. However, Ground types, electric resists which include the currently S tier Doublade, as well as faster scarfers or priority users that nullify the effects of bolt beak, can switch on it without too much trouble, and without bolt beak, it doesn't really do too much damage output and isnt that dangerous.
 
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Did someone just say that doublade resists electric?
Dracozolt should go A. With a good predict no ground type can effectively wall it except for steelix which hates earthquake anyways. Hippowdon is probably it's best counter, but even it is threatened by cb zolt's outrage. Bolt Beak hits hard with 738 attack, and zolt threatens to punch holes in teams as barring walls and immunities not a lot can take a bolt beak; the simple fact that the number of switches is so limited against band makes it very dangerous as a misplay is punished incredibly hard. The ability to break Milotic and threaten Doublade is great. Scarf zolt just threatens to sweep even through resists once it's counters are disposed of, forcing the opponent to protect a bbeak immunity much more than they would want to. And if Durant is A tier dracozolt is; it's so much more threatening with actually existent defensive stats along with hitting much harder. Also take note that electric dragon is a pretty good defensive typing.

Oh yeah sorry for shitty phrasing but I am reincarnated james joyce
 
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Twilight

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Rise to A+
I agree with the sentiment that Milotic is misrepresented by being placed in A but I still don't agree with the notion of placing it in S. I don't think there is much point to elaborate on this because I agree with some points of the argument but I primarily agree with what both Yeezy, palkia, and Viv have mentioned above regardless of whether their opinions have shifted since then. It's a great glue to a lot of teams but I do think it isn't that hard to pressure and overwhelm Milotic, Yeezy listing many examples in his post + there being many more. This is where I struggle to understand the argument of Milotic restricts teambuilding. I agree its coverage leaves it with few safe switch-ins but as I said it isn't that difficult to exploit Milotic and force the opposing player into positions where they have to Recover or Haze.

Rise to B
I've been using and enjoying Centiskorch a fair amount as of late and it's defo a decent Mon. I've used both 4 Atks and a Coil set and it is really annoying to pivot into and deal with + has a respectable amount of defensive utility. All of it's would be checks lose to the combination of Fire Lash + Power Whip such as Rhyperior, Milotic, and Vaporeon etc. Noivern usage hurts it but being able to Knock its Boots off is really nice for wearing it down. The Coil sets make it a good late-game cleaner but it does have a bit of a 4MSS where you either can't touch Chandy or you're walled by Rhyp etc. Centi is a relatively decent check to Chandelure aside from Specs sets, but you do take 2 Shadow Ball's from full. It can deal with stuff like Ninetales and Mamoswine also, which is hard to fulfill in one slot.

Rise to A
I think people are really underselling how useful and strong Weavile really is right now and how incredibly difficult it is to switch into its coverage. The only thing that resists its STAB combination is Lucario but that drops to Low Kick. Avalugg is a good pivot despite being kinda ass right now but it can die to two Low Kicks after minimal chip. Defensive Weezing is fairly annoying to break past but it's not too hard to overwhelm it with Icicle Crash + Rocks with it being so dependant on Black Sludge (Knock coming back in Home tho). It's the fastest unboosted threat in the metagame, which forces the best ways to deal with it to be priority moves, certain scarfers, and obviously Stealth Rock. The fact that it can very easily come in on almost every offensive threat solely on the basis of it naturally outspeeding makes it a phenomenal revenge killer and gives it more than enough opportunities to wallbreak. All our offensive Dark-types got nuked so Weavile lost all of its competition in this department, making it a premier answer to the Psychic-types and is capable of revenge killing other threats like DD Haxorus. SD + Boots have also been explored to give it better wallbreaking potential though I personally find it a lot easier to just fire off attacks than attempt to SD against something with its frailty.

Drop to B
Indeedee has fallen off a fair amount as a Psychic-type wallbreaker and has taken up the role of a support Mon more with Psychic Terrain being able to negate priority. This has a lot of value on a few offensive teams but I don't think B+ is an accurate representation of it. Espeon may be faster and have a higher SpA stat but it still faces too much competition from Gardevoir. Gard has a secondary typing, which is valuable for dealing with Haxorus and Noivern and is much easier to spam Moonblast than Dazzling Gleam from Espeon. Screens Espeon has also fallen off drastically so I think dropping it makes sense. Finally, I have very mixed thoughts on Xatu. I get that it's got a lot of utility because of Teleport but I think it's a bit too high to warrant being B+. Magic Bounce, while being a great ability, isn't nearly as impactful as it could be because of how great Boots are. It's kinda rough also when it has to get the 50/50 right vs Rhyp and it just can't risk pivoting into Mamoswine regardless.

Drop to B-
Ribombee has fallen off a lot in viability with webs no longer having as much relevance after the top 3 got banned. I defo think stuff like QD + 3 Atks or Specs Bee have some viability but unlike the other Fairy-types, it is hurt by the loss of HP Fire and wasn't given Mystical Fire to compensate for this. Imo, It's really hard to justify using Passimian anymore and I think a lot has to do with meta trends and the dying down of Sticky Webs. As a revenge killer most teams have dissuaded from using 'slower' Scarfers like this and have opted to use priority as the main ways to deal with powerful threats like Haxorus or Diggersby. When I want to use a Fighting-type it is hard to justify using Pass anymore over the stronger wallbreakers like Pangoro, Sirfetch'd, or Machamp. Some teams still value the utility of Knock + U-turn but from what I've experienced I don't think B represents it well anymore.

Things I agree should rise up one
Agree with these falling by one.


Honestly, I'm kind of torn on the whole S rank stuff because I don't think there is a clear or obvious S rank Mon in my eyes in this meta but I've found the Doublade discussion interesting. I don't know fully whether it should drop but people should still acknowledge how scary it can be if it sets up an SD with the best responses being limited to Hippo or a bulky Water-type, otherwise you are usually forced to trade a Mon just to chip its health in range for another Mon. I also think it may be a bit early to rank Zolt and Corsola but I think it is clear the former has at least had the biggest impact out of the two.
 
Machamp: Rise to B-/B
First let's get the elephant out of the room: Sirfetch'd. Why should you use Machamp instead of Sirfetch'd?
While Sirfetch'd does beat it out on most aspects, what Machamp does have is its ability to switch into Milotic and on status, on top of being able to switch up moves and maintain the same obscene power from the get-go WITHOUT prediction.

Machamp @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Heavy Slam
- Facade

This Machamp set absolutely obliterates bulky offense and balance, especially with Wish support from Umbreon or Vaporeon. Here are some calcs against some of the strongest defensive mons in the tier.

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 274-324 (82 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 207-244 (49.2 - 58%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 108 Def Milotic: 345-406 (87.5 - 103%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Machamp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 226-268 (66.8 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Guts Machamp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 164-194 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Machamp's niche is incredible. It is basically an all encompassing wall-breaker, allowing for your team mates such as Tsareena, Flygon, Heliolisk etc (all of which also provide Machamp with even easier switch ins) to further break or even sweep the opponents team with relative ease.
 
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Not a UU player, just a thought I had reading this thread.
Is it somehow inconceivable that there isn't an S Rank atm, and both Milotic and Doublade belong in A+?
Or are one or the other of those two above what the rest of A+ have to offer?
Just something that crossed my mind browsing. Keep up the good work everyone!
 
Hey folks, been a while since my last post but I’ve been steady grinding this tier & wanted to leave some short thoughts here for everyone instead of solely in the VR chat:

S —> A+
I don’t think Doublade is as menacing as it once used to be, especially considering how splashable Milotic is now too. Bulky Noivern sets can keep it in check with Flamethrower, bulky Ground-types in Rhyperior and Hippowdon are pretty popular atm, and it also doesn’t appreciate hard-hitters like Mamoswine, Diggersby, Haxorus, and Chandelure being really popular. Drop it to A+.

A —> A+
This one should need very little explanation behind it. Milotic fits on just about any team bar HO atm and the majority of the tier doesn’t like switching into Scald + Ice Beam. Haze is haze. I think people are still underexploring answers to it a little bit, so I wouldn’t classify it as S quite yet, but I do think it’s currently a top 2 mon in my book.

A —> A+
CB sets have no switch-ins, SD sets destroy every single fat team, DD sets are extremely threatening late game vs BO. This monster is easily A+ with its versatility & you better hope you have priority/a faster scarfer or that it gets a 3 turn Outrage so you can revenge it lol.

A —> A-
Sure, CC Scrappy is glorious, but it’s not the easiest to fit in teams, relies on First Impression more than I’d want it to, and also can’t really switch into anything popular safely. I think it fits much better alongside things in A- than in A.

A- —> A
Also not the easiest to fit on teams but swapping places with Sirfetch’d is logical to me. Specs obliterates almost everything in the tier and it has coverage for things like Zong. Its Speed tier being above things like Mamo, being able to come in at least once on Milo/Noiv cores, and the limited Steel-types this gen are all great attributes for it.

A- —> B+
I’ll admit my experience with this mon is very limited but there are very, very limited instances where I’d ever use this over Milotic or Vaporeon. I think the only good set is something like SubRoost with Metronome. No way this should be sitting with everything else in A-.

B+ —> A-/A
This mon is actually extremely good and B+ is a huge crime. TBolt/Volt/GKnot is already extremely annoying for the vast majority of the tier, and being able to pick its last slot freely is a blessing: Glare, Hyper Voice, Dark Pulse, Hyper Beam (!!), even Weather Ball under Sun. Its ability to scare out Milotic, beat basically every non-Scarf Ground-type in the tier, and pivoting makes this one of the best offensive mons in the game. It’s also one of my favorite mons with a cool looking shiny sprite so that should solidify this nom even more.

B —> B+
Creeps Haxorus, is an offensive Ground-type that can actually switch into non Normal STAB Heliolisk, has U-turn, good STAB typing, and Levitate. Yeah, it definitely belongs in B+.

C+ —> B-
I think these are both a little underused and deserve some more love. Guts Machamp is hard to switch into thanks to CC + Facade + Heavy Slam, while Frosmoth offers nice role compression with Ice Scales, Ice Beam can beat Noivern in a pinch, QD + Giga avoids Milo from sitting on it, Steel-types aren’t amazing with Doublade getting worse, and Defog if you’re desperate. Both better than things in C+.

B —> B+
Edited this one in because I originally forgot, but SR + Ground immunity + Steel-type is pretty nice in one slot. People say it’s passive, but let me just leave this as a response to that:

:Bronzong:
IP was right: CB Bronzong is kinda good. Much like in OU, with a lack of Z Moves and Mega evolutions, Trick is incredibly underrated and under-explored in my opinion. I've been using Trick CB Bronzong with SR and a defensive spread to much success. Can also run Toxic Orb or another item. Its typing + Levitate is incredible in this metagame, with Diggersby and Mamoswine running rampant. Lack of Toxic isn't even a big deal with Trick in my opinion, and the defensive utility it offers is great. Really though, Trick is good, more people should try it on other more things. Bronzong should rise though, it's not that bad.
I have some more personal nitpicks, especially with the lower tiers, but these are the ones I felt the strongest about. Please feel free to discuss these & why you agree/disagree with me. I also think that no mons are really S tier by themselves but personally think Milotic/Noivern are the best in the current meta with probably? Weezing #3. Hope you enjoyed :blobthumbsup:
 
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Wanka

THUNDERCLAP
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Roserade B+ ——> A-

Durant A ——> A+

Starting with rose I mean I feel like it checks off a lot of boxes for me whenever I’m building in ss uu. It punishes water ground cores, absorbs t spikes, sets t spikes, and can loosely switch into bulky waters that can click attacks and threaten the entire meta rn. Sleep powder is nice extra utility that can help u get up t spikes more easily even tho sleep powder isn’t as good to just click freely I’ve noticed. Personally as well, I feel like t spikes are really good right now and have helped me win so many games on the ladder, especially when I have games where myself and my opponent have more or less mirroring bulky water cores. Having something that can absorb tspikes , set them, and offensively threaten these cores at the same time, I feel like you have a really nice mon that deserves a bit better than b+.

With regards to durant I just feel the ability to be fast, be a steel type, have the prowess to ohko/2hko anything that isn’t a hippowdon, have priority that ohkos a lot of the metas best offensive threats, and have great coverage that is also insanely strong (doub getting 2hkod by band crunch) should result in it being one of the select best mons in the tier rn. I think durant is also really easy to build around rn as it fits into ss uus best archetype rn as well as HO if you’re going that route. There’s generally just not a ton of great counterplay to this mon. I’d say it does threaten HO and unprepared teams the most because band first impression ohkos shit like araquanid, diggers, haxorus, garde and does a fuckload to teapot that should allow you to not get mu’d by that mon. But again I think In general it’s just an insane mon that you can even lead vs 80% of teams you come across and apply instant pressure.

Rose and durant being cool:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1060211532
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1059003529
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1060644625

Excuse grammar, in my car atm. Hope ppl can agree w these.

E: in a world where durant is broken (which it honestly might be) I don’t think an argument about hustle being ass would hold any weight so I wouldn’t give it any weight when ranking it either, regardless of whether it’s actually broken or not. (Didn’t hold any weight when it got banned from ru in previous gens, don’t see why it should hold any weight now even when ranking it seeing as missing is a constant principle regardless of what’s going on in a meta from gen to gen) wanted to throw that in there ig since I didn’t address hustle rlly.
 
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Hilomilo

High-low My-low
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Hey all. Just checking in to let everyone know that this thread will be locked so that home adjustments can take some time to settle. We'll open up discussion again once we feel everything's established enough to get a solid grasp of the meta. An update should hopefully follow soon after. Thanks for all the great discussion so far! See y'all in a bit.
 
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