Resource SS UU Viability Ranking Thread (Pre-DLC)

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Hilomilo

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This thread is open for discussion again. I'd like to note that we've got a few previously talked about changes, like Doublade down from S and Roserade up from B+, set up for our coming update, which we’ll probably start working on roughly a week or two from now. In the meantime get any other nominations you might have in! We’ll adjust for any potential council bans as needed. Be kind and happy posting!
 
I'd like to nominate a mon for S tier immediately

Drifblim @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Strength Sap
- Defog

It is frankly disgraceful that this soul stealing happy go lucky balloon has been absent from the VR for this long

I'm going to level with you guys, it's not a particuarly great mon, but let's let this thing float in c tier

Its unique typing and tools this gen gives it a small niche in uu, but a niche regardless

First off this thing is a slightly less passive fogger vs a lot of spike/rock setters than weezing due to willo and hex. Being able to deal damage vs bronzong, as well as cripple rhyp and hippo (although it cant switch into rhyp) is nice. It also resists both of roserade's stabs, so even though it loses the one 1v1 it is safer to switch it into a sludge bomb than say a weezing

Mons it does decently against:
Diggersby- resisting both stabs means it checks most of the scarf sets, and a good chunk of the sd sets. Drifblim probably got worse after home because now stuff like this can run knock off but...*shrug*
Haxorus- Heavily resisting 3 out of the 4 moves hax runs on band is pretty cool. You can force outrages early which can put you in a decent position to revenge. You can also hard swap it into ddance and win the 1v1 bc driflim lives a +1 outrage from full
Lucario- It can get a willo on the standard meteor set, even though it prob still loses the 1v1 lol
Sirfetchd- try not to get knocked but at least its one of the few mons that wont be 2hkod by combat o.o
Toxicroak- Easiest hard wall of my life

This mon lowkey woulda been decent b4 home but now things run knock so...i mean it still has to be better than morpeko right

Give this frightening float the C tier respecc it deserves

Council: it's on you

Gxe out
 

Jade

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:ss/Vikavolt: from UR to at least C+.

I think we all know what Vikavolt does at this point, but I'm actually not nomming it for its Webs set. In fact webs are pretty meh right now imo and there's easily a better, more slept on set.

Vikavolt @ Metronome
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 216 HP / 252 SpA / 40 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Thunderbolt
- Substitute
- Roost

Speed is for Hippowdon or Rhyperior creeping Hippowdon, I've seen investing for Umbreon but like what's the point. This thing is a monster and shreds like every defensive core out there. Milotic + Weezing + Umbreon is falling to you. Vaporeon + Gigalith + Weezing bows down if you manage to play well. And I don't even have to mention those Hippowdon teams I've been seeing lately, they get stomped on. Also please don't use defensive its pretty garbage, Vikavolt should be breaking not pivoting and using it as a Defensive mon is a waste of its potential. I'll probably edit this in with replays ladder but I don't think they're necessary when this isn't seen as an unviable mon or anything. This can even go up to B- since its 100% better than Galvantula but that bridge can be crossed later.

We have no Bug + Electric resists that its actually insane. Like I don't think I even have to get into it honestly, its the whole reason this mon is so good. Duraludon isn't a resist to literally any Special Attack, Rotom gets 2HKOed, Steelix isn't doing shit to you without Stone Edge, and the other resists are like unmons. I've thought of this mon ever since the dex purge got announced but when I found out it didn't get Roost I cried for days. At last it has its recovery and god is it a lifesaver.

Tl;dr rank this thing in C or C+, maybe it can rise to B- later but for now the former two ranks are a safe guess. This thing fucks up defensive cores so hard that its actually insane. I've even seen some people run Agility which I haven't tested yet but does sound annoying for some offenses I guess. I'm not considering the defensive set in this post because it is bad compared to the potential Metronome has.
 
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yeezyknows

Banned deucer.
Hey guys, quick unofficial slate here that I essentially proposed to a lot of the people participating with vr adjustments for the new-ish meta.

1582402310635.png

S --> A/A+

Just generally not as dominant, super hard to make a dent in essentially any build that isnt full-bore offense, loses to pretty much every bulky water, and increased knock off distribution hurts it a ton. It's still a solid mon because of its defensive utility and ability to smash offense, but it's not as dominant as it used to be

:haxorus:

A --> A+, possibly S but probably not

Super good mon, both CB and DD can absolutely wreck unprepared teams, arguably the tier's best wallbreaker alongside Chandelure, while also serving as a solid wincon with DD. A+ at a minimum

:mantine:

A- --> A

Mantine becomes a solid defogger in the current meta while also having a great deal of defensive utility against mons such as Doublade and Chandelure. Fits on BO/Balance/Fat, performing its role well.

:barraskewda:

B+ --> B-

Pretty bad honestly, fell off a ton from its early-meta hype. Struggles to break any form of fat while also having next to zero defensive utility, struggles vs the tier's most common walls in Milotic, Mantine, and Weezing-G. Can be moderately threatening to offense but not much utility beyond that.

:roserade:

B+ ->A/A-

Phenomenal offensive threat while also having strong defensive utility. One of the few offensive mons that can sit on milotic/mantine without fear of being burned. Toxic spikes are still lethal, sleep is still lethal, and the combination of leaf storm/giga drain+sludge bomb is still lethal as well. Great mon

:bronzong:

B+ --> A-

Two words: toxic distribution. Zong had a ton of defensive utility pre-home, but it was unbearably passive in tons of matchups. Toxic distribution largely fixes that, as zong can be moderately threatening in offensive regards now, while still maintaining its defensive utility.


:tsareena:
B --> A-/A

Three words: knock off distribution. Tsareena was solid pre-home, but access to knock off lets it chip and largely cripple three of its strongest means of defensive counterplay: Weezing-G, Doublade, and Noivern. It's become far more threatening offensively as a result, with few mons able to safely take its offensive coverage now.

:machamp:

C+ --> B+

Phenomenal breaker, one of the few offensive mons that actually appreciates switching into scalds from mantine/milotic. CC/Facade/knock/bp coverage is insane in the current meta, absolutely destroying anything resembling fat, particularly with wish support.

:flygon:

B --> B+

While passive overall, flygon's speed tier and access to u-turn makes it arguably the tier's best scarfer. It can RK haxorus, while also pivoting on its defensive counterplay with u-turn. Great scarfer.

:gigalith:

B --> A

Arguably the tier's best defensive rocker. Can pivot into the tier's most fearsome special breakers with relative impunity. Counters noivern as well. Phenomenal defensively while also not being passive on the offensive end. Arguably equal, if not better than rhyperior as of right now.

:passimian:

B --> B-/C+

Slow scarfer. Powerful and has access to uturn, but it's annoyingly slow in the current meta.
 

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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This is about to be long as hell but idc

:doublade: S -> A-: I know yeezy mentioned bringing this down to A+ or A but I think even that is overselling this thing tbh. Mons that are in A like Umbreon and Diggersby are just so much better than this thing is. The only thing I'd even consider it better than in A/A+ is Sirfetch'd which shouldn't even be there to begin with anymore. Imo it's much more on par with mons like Vaporeon and Golisopod rn.

:haxorus: A -> A+: Yeah this thing is really solid and always has been. I don't wanna go to S because it's really not that hard to RK and quite a few things are propping up like physdef Vap and Milo to prevent it from just 2hkoing the entire tier with earthquake, and a hax locked into outrage is a lot easier to deal with. Still easily our best breaker on the physical side and rarely a liability, plus its set versatility is great.

:mantine: A- -> A: Sure. I don't have too much experience with it post-home but it definitely got a lot better with the return of Defog, and having something to check Chandelure that isn't Gigalith is always nice. Being a "true" flying mon is also great because it can dissuade choiced Haxorus from clicking EQ even if it can't really reliably switch into its Dragon STABs.

:barraskewda: B+ -> B-: Yep. Haven't seen this thing since the week it dropped other than on like one team. Its movepool is just too terrible; it gets nice coverage but can't boost its stats and doesn't hit much of the tier SE to make up for it. B- might be a bit harsh because I think it's still better than like Braviary and Whimsicott but it's probably where it belongs.

:roserade: B+ -> A: I don't need to even explain this. Rose is just super good and deserves to be in a tier with mons like Hippo and Umbreon.

:bronzong: B+ -> A-: Toxic saved it so yes, it belongs here. Might even be A as time goes on, since it, Escavalier and Silvally-Steel are like, the only real Steel types we have, which is huge in a meta where Fairy types are as good as they are. Levitate is also pretty huge since you pretty much wall non-Knock Off Diggersby and invalidate all Hippowdons and most Rhyperiors, something the other steels can't boast.

:tsareena: B+ -> A-: It got better. But it's still nowhere near the level of like, Roserade or Milotic. Maybe I just haven't used it enough but I don't think it's good enough to warrant A just yet.

:machamp: C+ -> B+: I think B+ is underrating this thing tbh. It's as good as or maybe even better than Sirfetch'd imo, and has a ton more utility than the bird while also not really missing out on much in the speed tier it lacks. I've been spamming this thing + Vaporeon on ladder and it pretty much invalidates all the bulky waters in the tier and just breaks everything. Really good mon, may even be A- but jumping 4 subranks at once is kinda silly.

:flygon: B -> B+: Sure. It's amazing on Volt-Turn teams lacking an Ice Sharder since they tend to just get bowled over by Haxorus otherwise, and revenging stuff like Hax, Rose and baiting in the ever-abusable bulky waters is always great.

:gigalith: B -> A: YES. I've been waiting SO LONG for this one. Gigalith is 100% better than Rhyperior by virtue of its actual spdef stat and OML TOXIC MADE IT SO MUCH BETTER. It beats just about every special threat in the tier or at least switches into them once, has a much easier time getting Wishes passed to it and in my experience it keeps rocks up far more consistently than Rhyperior. It struggles a little more with like Weezing and Bronzong sure but that's nowhere near enough to keep it down this low. A is perfect for it.

:passimian: B -> B-/C+: Idrc where this thing goes, I haven't seen it on anything other than webs where it's pretty okay I guess but webs aren't doing well to begin with rn. Cool in theory but I'd rather just use scarf Flygon + any other fighting type.

Okay now that that's over...

:drifblim: UR -> C: Yes. I used this thing as a meme because I wanted a defogger that 1v1d Diggersby (pre-home) and it actually worked surprisingly well. I wish it got a better recovery option than Strength Sap bc it doesn't work that well with your insane HP stat but it's fine, it gets the job done in super niche situations.

:vikavolt: UR -> C+: Heck yeah, this thing's a monster. Bug has proven to be a strangely effective offensive typing in the tier as we can see through First Impression spam, but Vikavolt takes it to a whole new level by crapping on all the things that would normally take First Impression like Noivern, Milotic and Weezing. Idk about Metronome personally, I feel like you break pretty much everything you'd want to regardless and the utility of Boots might be a bit nicer since you're gonna be changing moves fairly often anyway, but maybe I'm just bad lol idk.

:frosmoth: C+ -> B-: This nom was made quite a while ago by now, but I think the moth is super underrated in C+. It struggles with the rise of Gigalith, sure, but it can slowly break that down because its Ice Beams and Giga Drains are surprisingly strong. It's surprisingly volatile and is definitely a cut above things like Rillaboom and Pyukumuku.

And finally, I'd like to touch on a couple of my own noms.

:lucario: A- -> A: Lucario has become super threatening recently. It appreciates Doublade's massive decline in usage, and even though it still struggles with new threats such as Mantine, it does an amazing job of sweeping in most games, It also finds a surprisingly high amount of setup opportunities despite its crappy bulk just bc of its typing; it sets up on non-powder Roserade, abuses the hell out of Umbreon, doesn't care about Drapion other than rare EQ variants, and can tank a hit from a bunch of mons like Tsareena. Definitely winning rn imo.

:escavalier: B- -> B: I have a lot of experience using the snail knight and I have to say that it's super good and apt at checking a bunch of threatening things. Overcoat notably allows it to permanently wall every single Roserade set ever made outside of demonic Weather Ball sets, it doesn't really care about Tsareena, has the natural bulk to switch in on stuff like Gigalith and Flygon a couple times, tanks hits from Gardevoir (other than Mystical Fire), and is just generally really solid in this meta. It's like we got Scizor back but in a much more crappy form. SD allows it to muscle its way through some fatter teams and Knock is always nice. I personally drop Megahorn for CC because I surprisingly don't find myself clicking it often vs anything and not being super passive in the face of Lucario is more valuable to me, but I'm sure 4 attacks sets would work fine too. It didn't really get anything from Home but I think the meta changed in a way that is pretty friendly towards it. It's also great against Reuniclus which is always a plus.

:sirfetchd: A+ -> A/A-: I've mentioned this thing being bad like a million times in this post and maybe I'm just being a bit harsh on it. But really, why bother using this over Machamp? Or Lucario? Or literally anything else? It can't break Weezing without knocking it, switching and then sacrificing like 60% of its HP the next time Weezing comes in unless you run the otherwise-bad Steel Wing, it's locked into its STAB moves because it can't really run anything other than CB (I guess Life Orb could work?) and it's super abusable as a result, and it's not even fast to make up for its shortcomings. I feel like Machamp's ability to pivot in on bulky waters, switch up its moves etc. just makes it so much better overall. Sure, this thing still has ridiculous attack and insanely powerful CCs, but it's just not what it used to be.

:drapion: A- -> B+: Drapion was super good pre-home but now that everything gets Knock and Toxic again it kinda lost most of its niche. It's still pretty damn solid at stopping a bunch of things like Roserade and Polteageist in their tracks, but I find that there's just less of a reason to put it on teams rn.

:toxicroak: C+ -> B: Two subranks for this thing because it's just so good. Bulky waters are often dropping Ice Beam for Toxic now which means this thing laughs in their face even more and the drop in Doublade usage is nice for it too. It needs SD to sweep, sure, but honestly you can just fire off Gunks and Drains midgame to weaken checks massively (im p sure you do like 90 to incoming noiverns like wtf) and it's also a huge stop to Araquanid which is a PAIN to deal with otherwise. Fun mon, strong mon and has great utility. Competition from Lucario sucks but its niche is still really good.

:centiskorch: B- -> B/B+: I have no idea why this thing is ranked so low tbh. It completely trashes balance teams and fatter teams just bc Fire Lash is that crazy and it has good enough utility/coverage in Knock Off and Power Whip. It's not even complete deadweight vs offense because its typing allows it to be a one-time check to stuff like Chandelure and Lucario and Knock is just always nice to have. It doesn't like the increase in Knock + Toxic tho so I can see why it'd only go up to B rather than B+.

I've neglected to raise opinions on Weavile, Diggersby and Durant because Hogg has said that the council will be voting on them this weekend. For the record I believe they should all be A+/S in the current meta and probably all banned.

That should cover everything for now, I'll probably make another post if I think of anything notable but I think this reflects most of my thoughts.
 

Estarossa

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Some noms I absolutely agree with -

:lucario: A- -> A agree - Honestly this is probably one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier currently, its speed tier is so much better than it was last gen, and sets up on and switches into the ever present Umbreon super easily, while having very few consistent defensive checks, limited to mons like Arcanine, Mantine, and Charizard, with would be offensive checks like Noivern, Sigilyph, Scarf Gard etc all really struggling against SD sets due to espeed. These checks can also easily be pressured by specific sets, with (mixed attacker) Thunder Punch sets being able to lure Mantine (and Zard) well. Like this mon is one of the best balance breakers in the tier, while still being able to put ample pressure on offensive teams with its great stab combo and speed tier allowing it to get opportunities to break on stuff like specs gard, tsareena, mamo, machamp etc despite generally struggling to switch in.

:roserade: B+ -> A agree - Roserade has really benefitted from the recent bans, losing two of its best offensive checks. It really appreciates some Pokemon like Milotic / Mantine dropping their coverage for it in favour of Toxic (and Defog) now too, allowing it to sit on them even more and get ample breaking opportunities. One of the best Spikes/Tspikes setters too and definitely appreciates Drapion becoming less good, and really able to punish its checks like Bronzong by just setting Spikes on switch in so that it's never dead weight.

:bronzong: B -> A- agree - Getting Toxic back was everything Bronzong could really wish for. Being able to switch into threatening mons like Offensive Weezing (without caring about Toxic like fat waters would), Gardevoir and Roserade is still great, but its also not super passive anymore and doesn't just let stuff in against it completely freely, making it much less fodder for more offensive teams. Loss of Weavile and Diggersby definitely benefitted it hugely too.

:machamp: C+ -> B+ agree - Honestly Machamp did seem to fly under the radar for a bit, but being a Fighting-type that actively doesn't care about Scald burns while having CB level power while not being screwed over by Umbreon protect scouting it and incredible coverage that makes it incredibly hard to switch into is amazing. Loss of weavile is also great for it by making Bullet Punch less of a requirement, allowing it to potentially run both Facade and Heavy Slam more freely, while Bullet Punch is still amazing to prevent would be checks like Gardevoir.

:escavalier: B- -> B agree - As Roserade gets better, so does this thing really. Being the only true counter to Roserade thanks to Overcoat is fantastic for lots of teams, while Escavalier is also able to pressure fatter teams easily with its powerful stabs and Knock Off, and get opportunities to break against Pokemon like Gardevoir, Espeon, Tsareena against more offensive teams easily.

:drapion: A- -> B/B+ agree - Home really did a number on Drapion, removing a lot of its uniqueness as far as being a Pokemon with Knock and Toxic goes. While it is still a decent tspikes setter and offensive check to mons like Chandelure and Roserade, it struggles to switch into Sleep Powder variants of the latter, and has issues with the ever popular offensive weezing which it struggles to prevent Defogging / setting Tspikes against it in a lot of matchups due to needing to preserve its health. Heal Bell redistribution also made its effects as far as spreading status a lot less permanent.


Personal noms -

:charizard: C- -> C+ : to no-ones surprise I'm nomming this one up. Getting Roost back with Pokemon home made Charizard an actual viable pick on defensive teams as a Defogger and check to both SD and NP forms of Lucario, (as well as a switch in to the rarer Copperajah unless Rock Slide) allowing for precious moveslots on Pokemon like Weezing/Noivern to be freed up for options like Aromatherapy / Taunt+Toxic. Its nice speed tier allowing it to offensively check Roserade and get a fast burn on Mamoswine is great too, while having the bulk to switch into Mamoswine at least once if necessary on a predicted EQ.

:Hippowdon: A -> A- (try not to die of shock please) : Hippowdon simply faces too much competition as a Stealth Rock user in the current metagame, and the Durant ban resulted in the loss of one of the few mons it was one of the best checks to. Other SR users like Rhyperior/Gigalith simply threaten Defoggers like Mantine/Noivern far more, while Bronzong is able to provide key defensive utility against Pokemon like Gard/Rose that fatter teams can have issues with and Mamo can help to provide non Outrage locking counterplay to Haxorus and an offensive presence, leaving HIppo with few situations where it is the best choice.

:heliolisk: B+ -> A- : Heliolisk in general is great right now. Even though Bulky waters did get toxic back, its ability to pressure milotic/mantine is really useful for a lot of teams while being one of the best offensive pivots we have due to beating all common non-Flygon ground types 1v1 and its great speed tier allowing it to pressure more offensive teams well. Further options like Protect simply make it even more annoying to deal with, preventing mons like Golisopod revenging it at all.

:aromatisse: C -> C+ : Aromatisse is an underrated option for a cleric right now, and its ability to serve as one of the only counters to Haxorus is a massive blessing. While facing competition from Weezing as a Fairy, and Vaporeon/Umbreon as wish passers, its role compression of a Fighting resist, Haxorus answer, and cleric can be invaluable to the right team.

:rhyperior: A+ -> A : While still a great choice for a Stealth Rocker, the metagame has kinda adapted to it a lot in general. With a lot of Noivern's running Draco Meteor, Rhyp really struggles to check it as well as it could previously, while SD sets struggle to braek through any team running Milotic (and lesser extent Vaporeon) based teams, while Taunt Umbreon sets are problematic for any non Megahorn set. importantly, it is facing more and more competition from Gigalith due to its ability to deal with Noivern much better, as well as pivot into mons like Chandy/Gard. Getting Toxic back was definitely good for it but it doesn't really stand out as the best choice above the other Rockers at all rn.

:rotom-frost: C+ -> B- : Another fairly underrated threat, Rotom-Frost is a really nice option that greatly benefitted from Boots and NP, allowing it to switch in much more freely and set up really easily against Bulky waters, with its STAB boltbeam coverage allowing it to easily break through defensive cores, while being a great pivot thanks to most ground types not wanting to Switch into Blizzard. Other sets like NP Salac in Misa's sample team are also very threatening, and Rotom-Frost really in general appreciates those sort of hazard stacking teams that greatly punish its checks like Mamo.
 

Hilomilo

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Hey all! Starting today we'll be working on a slate for our coming update, which should be within the next few days. Don't hesitate to get any final nominations in still! Everything brought up in this thread will be voted on by our viability team. In the meantime, I present to you the stunning art for our banner that the lovely HotFuzzBall was gracious enough to make. Thank you for your hard work and beautiful job!
 

In what might go down as an incredibly controversial nomination, I nominate Reuniclus for S.

The three recent bans are nothing short of a tremendous boon for Reuniclus. Despite being more than adequate in this tier with the likes of Weavile, Diggersby, and Durant around, the removal of one of the tier's limited viable Dark-types and of three incredibly powerful physical breakers capable of muscling past Reuniclus even after setup gives the Double-Dance set that saw plenty of success in last generation's OU a new lease on life. Magic Guard helps it deal with the influx of Toxic users brought about by Home's release, and of the remaining Dark-types used in this tier only Drapion and Pangoro can reliably beat it. Umbreon gets outright PP-stalled by it because Acid Armor and Calm Mind have so much PP and it's eventually forced to Wish if it's running Rocky Helmet.

Realistically, Reuniclus doesn't need too much support to absolutely wreck house in this tier now, and it has virtually no switchins outside of the aforementioned Dark-types because with a single good prediction it can use one of its setup moves to immediately check or hard-counter them. The increasingly-popular Swords Dance Lucario only has a decent chance of 2HKOing an uninvested Reuniclus with its Life Orb boosted Meteor Mash assuming both are on identical terms with boosts and gets tremendously worn down by Rocky Helmet. Life Orb Mamoswine can't even 2HKO it at +2 with Knock Off. Jolly Choice Band Haxorus has a very real chance of being unable to OHKO an unboosted Reuniclus with either First Impression or Outrage and cannot switch in on Reuniclus whatsoever. That said, the trending Gigalith makes for an incredibly good teammate; it can check a lot of the special attackers that threaten Reuniclus considerably - particularly Chandelure - and they don't have any noticeable tensions typing-wise thanks to Magic Guard making sand chip a complete nonissue.

With recent metagame trends shifting the metagame considerably in Reuniclus's favor, I feel that it's more than worthy of being at least considered for S. It's much more threatening than Doublade at the moment, in my opinion.
 

Hilomilo

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Our first update is finally here! Thanks for the productive discussion, everyone! Let's keep it up for this next slate. :) A lot has changed in the time since the thread first opened up, so we've got a pretty giant list of changes. For this update I'll use hide boxes for the reasonings just so the post isn't crazy long. Enjoy!
Rises
A -> A+
A -> A+
A- -> A
B+ -> A
B -> A
B+ -> A-
B -> A-
B -> B+
B -> B+
C+ -> B+
B- -> B
B- -> B
C+ -> B-
C+ -> B-
C -> C+
C -> C+
C- -> C
Drops
S -> A
A+ -> A
A -> A-
A -> A-
A- -> B+
B+ -> B-
B+ -> B
B+ -> B
B+ -> B
B -> B-
B -> B-
B -> B-
B -> B-
B- -> C+
B- -> C+
B- -> C+
C+ -> C-
C -> C-
C -> C-
C- -> D
(Dark) C- -> UR
New Placements
Added to B-
UR -> B-
UR -> C+
UR -> C-
  • Haxorus is a top offensive presence thanks to the current potency of both its Dragon Dance and Choice Band sets. Its centralization can be seen in the increased importance of 100+ Speed scarfers in teambuilding, as well as the growing niches of Fairy-types like Aromatisse and Alcremie on slower builds. The current hold it has on the metagame is fully worth a spot in A+.
  • Milotic took a slight hit during the adjustment to home, though it’s still an amazing defensive glue capable of providing to nearly every archetype. Between its great synergy with other defensive staples, access to Haze, and the struggle most teams can face even switching into it, Milotic is among the most consistent Pokemon available and fits the description of an A+ Pokemon quite nicely.
  • Gardevoir is among UU’s most overtly threatening wallbreakers with its Choice Specs set. The lack of safe counterplay to its excellent coverage has made it a huge struggle to consistently pivot into, while other options like Scarf and Calm Mind are also seeing fair experimentation.
  • Roserade has surged in usage as a greatly threatening wallbreaker. In addition to being one of the best offensive Milotic answers, it provides excellent utility with Sleep Powder and Spikes burdening its minimal defensive counterplay. A two-subrank rise adequately showcases Roserade’s current presence.
  • Gigalith has seen a huge influx in usage as a top-notch rocker, as is represented by its giant shift in rank. Checking huge presences in Noivern and Chandelure while blanketing other top breakers like Gardevoir has largely increased its spashability and urgency, establishing a clear niche over its main competition in Rhyperior.
  • Heliolisk’s ability to safely check most Water-types, key Speed tier, and coverage to efficiently work around most counterplay has given both Scarf and Specs sets great importance to several offensive builds. Its splashability and current value are at an all-time high.
  • Bronzong is a great pick for a rocker right now, appreciating its regained access to Toxic while providing solid utility with its typing and Levitate. Being able to cripple what it previously let in for free is pretty big, while it offers one of the better answers to huge threats like Roserade, Gardevoir, and Weezing, providing it an excellent niche.
  • Flygon has developed a firm niche as one of the best options for scarfers. Its ability to revenge kill Haxorus in addition to the utility it can provide with U-turn, Defog, and its typing has increased its worth on several offenses, justifying a rise.
  • Tsareena benefitted massively from regaining Knock Off, allowing it to smack Chandelure, Doublade, Bronzong while crippling checks like Weezing and Noivern on the switch. Its ability to greatly restrict counterplay has largely increased its worth as a spinner in the tier, justifying a bump in rank.
  • Machamp is another Pokemon to recently see a huge surge in usage, emerging as a devastating wallbreaker. It offers several perks over its main competition in Sirfetch’d between its ability to switch moves (making it harder to punish), stronger fat matchup, and its key Guts ability. Its overt threat level is well worth such a large rise.
  • Centiskorch and Escavalier are both rising from B- thanks to the great utility they both present. Centiskorch has great coverage alongside its threatening STAB Fire Lash, with Knock Off and Power Whip burdening nearly all its counterplay. It also offers a blanket check to the likes of Weezing and Lucario. Escavalier is among the most reliable Roserade checks and has a lot to love between its set versatility, great defensive typing, and firm damage output.
  • Toxicroak can greatly threaten the common Milotic/Umbreon/Weezing cores thanks to its potent typing and Dry Skin. It also has decent versatility between its ability to successfully break/sweep with both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, and could benefit from more exploration down the road.
  • Alcremie and Aromatisse are each rising a rank thanks to their merit as solid Haxorus checks alongside the other tools they offer. Alcremie is a decent bulky wincon with great coverage against the tier’s Steel-types, while Aromatisse provides great role compression on bulky cores with its Fighting-/Dragon-type resistances and access to both Wish and Aromatherapy.
  • Shiftry is rising from C by virtue of its decent potency on semi-sun cores with Ninetales. Its Chlorophyll-boosted Speed combines seamlessly with its setup access, powerful STABs, and solid coverage, making it an underrated yet powerful threat in many matchups.
  • Charizard regaining Roost has been important in helping it establish more of a defensive niche with boots, justifying a small rise. It has some use on fat builds thanks to the unique tools it presents as well as its ability to check big threats such as Lucario and Sirfetch’d.
  • Doublade no longer has the same hold over the meta it did very early on. Between Knock Off’s redistribution, the prominence of defensive backbones fully capable of handling it, and the general adaptations made to it in building, it is far less dominant and is dropping two subranks to reflect that. With its typing and priority access it still has loads of utility, though its consistency is simply not the same as the early post-dynamax metagame.
  • Rhyperior is still a great rocker but is dropping to reflect its increased competition with Gigalith, who can provide serious benefits through its ability to more safely check Pokemon like Chandelure and Gardevoir. Given Rhyperior’s Ground-type STAB and access to Swords Dance, the two make sense together in A to represent their stronger niches in different contexts.
  • Hippowdon has become a less urgent pick as other rockers in Gigalith and Bronzong, who can either more sufficiently pressure defoggers or offer rare defensive tools, have gotten more exposure. A small drop reflects its altered importance.
  • Sirfetch’d faces enough competition from more recently explored options in Lucario and Machamp to justify dropping. While still a terrifying breaker, its weaker Weezing matchup, reliance on Choice Band, and poor defensive utility have been exploited more frequently in building.
  • Drapion’s drop represents its slightly diminished utility after home redistributed the previously rare Knock Off and Toxic. It also runs into a few awkward issues regarding its typing, especially as Pokemon like Gardevoir and Lucario become more prominent.
  • Barraskewda has dropped off significantly due to its inability to provide teams any defensive merit. The drawbacks of both its Life Orb and choiced sets as well as the prominence of defensive Water-types also heavily disadvantages it.
  • Indeedee has become a far less reliable scarfer due to the importance of outrunning boosted Haxorus. Its Terrain Extender and Choice Specs sets still present fair uses, though its shabby bulk, competition from other Psychics, and decreased utility holds it back enough for a slight drop.
  • It’s a bit harder now justifying Salazzle as Gigalith and Rhyperior maintain their places in the tier. NP + Toxic struggles to break past traditional counterplay as reliably as Ninetales, while SubToxic sets have also been hurt by Heal Bell redistribution and the aforementioned rockers’ tendency to run Rock Blast quite often.
  • Xatu struggles to consistently take advantage of Magic Bounce given the bevy of hazard setters capable of beating it. Teleport is still a solid niche though its consistency isn’t on par with other B+ Pokemon or the Psychic-types it competes with.
  • Avalugg gives teams a solid answer to Haxorus and Mamoswine, but struggles to find many applications in practice and is rather easy to take advantage of. Between Knock Off redistribution, its passivity, and the high density of strong special breakers, it just isn’t consistent enough to sit in B.
  • Copperajah provides little defensive utility which has complicated its ability to showcase a solid niche over other Steel-types. Its high offensive potency and Stealth Rock access give it some use, though its inability to reliably check several Pokemon Steel-types are fitted for has hurt its splashability.
  • Passimian and Ribombee have both suffered a bit in recent weeks, between several Fighting-types with solid niches being used over Passimian and Defog redistribution hurting Ribombee’s niche as a Webs setter. Passimian also struggles as a scarfer given its slightly low Speed.
  • Arcanine has dropped due to the decreased urgency of checking Doublade as well as the new competition it faces from Charizard. The recent bans also hurt its niche due to its ability to convincingly check Weavile and Durant, which was a large part of its niche.
  • Froslass and Quagsire are both dropping from B- due to lacking proven worth. Froslass hasn’t established much of a place on HOs like it did last gen, while Quagsire suffers competition from other Waters due to how specific its uses can be and the benefits Pokemon like Milotic and Mantine provide.
  • Rillaboom’s usability has been hurt greatly by Tsareena regaining Knock Off. While Ground-type coverage and Swords Dance are options unique to it, it has few realistic applications over its competition and is best represented in C-, due to its fringe viability.
  • Morpeko and Claydol have lessened niches as spinners with several new options for removal emerging post-home. Both also run into large issues, considering Morpeko’s huge vulnerability to most hazard setters and Claydol’s passive nature.
  • Everything that got unranked from C- sucks.
  • Galarian Corsola is a decent defensive option thanks to its access to Stealth Rock, status spreading capabilities, and ability to check a unique selection of threatening wallbreakers. It is both horribly passive and disadvantaged by home changes, however, which restricts its splashability and justifies placement in the low Bs until further potential exposure.
  • Slurpuff regained Belly Drum with Home, which provided it a solid niche as a highly threatening late-game sweeper on HO. Its ability to abuse banded Haxorus to set up alongside the general lack of sturdy Fairy-resists is super helpful in boosting its threat level, though it can require heavy support and struggles working around Pokemon like Doublade and Weezing at times.
  • Vikavolt is a fine presence thanks to its high damage output and the general lack of reliable defensive counterplay. Roost provides it longevity and offers potential with both offensive and defensive sets. Its solid experimentation has yielded a niche worth placement in C+, reflecting its potency despite some issues it can run into.
  • Goodra is a decent offensive answer to a few big threats, like Roserade and Ninetales, and provides a unique offensive presence with its Choice Specs set, which has excellent coverage and higher damage output than Specs Noivern. Despite a relatively minimal niche, it has decent uses and can pose a real threat as a special breaker.

We're bringing back discussion points this generation, and like last time I'll be covering them in a second post. Thanks everyone!
 
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Hilomilo

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Discussion Points
Noivern A+ -> S: Noivern provides amazing utility in the metagame with its many admirable qualities. Its typing, Speed tier, vast utility movepool, and decent set versatility have allowed it to showcase great splashability and consistency on the majority of builds. It serves as a great check to several large UU presences while requiring its own counterplay on every build. A multi-faceted and dominant presence, several people on the VR team believe S to represent its place in UU perfectly.

Reuniclus A+ -> A: Despite benefiting from the recent council bans, Reuniclus has struggled a bit with both Knock Off redistribution and the general density of powerful breakers in the tier. It has brilliant offensive potency, but can be overwhelmed by the likes of Mamoswine, Haxorus, and Chandelure and has an awkward matchup against various defensive staples, like Milotic and Mantine. VR team was particularly torn on this one, so I’d like to open it up for more community discussion.

Lucario A- -> A: Lucario has seen an influx in usage as a highly potent offensive force. Setup sets have picked up a lot of steam for the heavy pressure they can apply to prominent defensive cores, while its great coverage and access to priority allow it to work around many checks. Its 4mss, frailty issues, and the high amount of solid revenge killers can hurt its consistency, though a rise to A is certainly on the table.

Polteageist A- -> B+: Polteageist has been brought up for a drop on account of its niche being a bit specific, as well as the popularity of checks like Umbreon and to a lesser extent Gigalith. This in addition to its weird Speed and frailty can burden it a fair amount, though it still often proves lethal against opposing offenses due to the low amount of reliable Ghost-type counterplay and Doublade’s decreased usage. Its offensive constraint is still quite significant.

Espeon B+ -> B: Espeon has the most potent combination of Special Attack and Speed of the tier’s Psychic-types, but can still struggle distinguishing itself from Gardevoir or Reuniclus due to its far worse coverage, lack of secondary STAB, and frailty. Screen sets have also fallen off quite a bit, though with its better stats both Specs and fast Calm Mind could prove worthy of keeping its rank.

Araquanid B -> B+: Araquanid's SubToxic set has proven greatly useful recently, retaining its solid offensive pressure while working around the standard means of checking it, most notably bulky Water-types. RestTalk boots has also been utilized well as a solid answer to tier staples like Chandelure, Mamoswine, and some Lucario sets. Whether its recently emerged sets are worth rising it deserves more conversation.

Bewear B -> B-: Bewear hasn’t seen much usage at all and can struggle to define a niche over other available Fighting-types. Pangoro’s better matchup against Reuniclus, the greater offensive potencies of Lucario and Sirfetch’d, and Machamp’s better fat matchup all give it pretty stiff competition, and its unique tools don’t often yield a specific niche over other options on paper. Due to its limited exposure, though, more discussion on the topic could be useful.

Snorlax B- ->B: Snorlax isn’t a super mainstream threat but has a good amount of tricks up its sleeve that could justify a small rise. With Thick Fat it provides a solid answer to Chandelure in addition to blanketing other special threats with its bulk, like Heliolisk and Roserade. Between Curse + Earthquake, Curse RestTalk, and even Choice Band it also has a few different options for sets that could use some more attention, though it isn’t too easy to fit in most scenarios.

Rotom-F C+ -> B-: Rotom-F is another rather underutilized Pokemon that could benefit from more in-depth discussion. Its great STAB combo alongside new access to Nasty Plot and boots gives it the ability to punch holes in teams while coming in on bulky Waters decently. Defog and Salac Berry are also options it can explore, though its situational defensive typing and accuracy issues can hurt its reliability compared to other options.

Hope you guys enjoyed! Remember to be kind, and happy posting! :)
 
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:hakamo-o: nominating Hakamo-o for C- :hakamo-o:

This lil dude doesn't seem threatening at first but he actually has a super useful niche on balance teams by checking umbreon and chandelure in the same slot without being as passive as something like Mantine. Forms a sturdy defensive core with bronzong who comes in on weezing-g and mamoswine. Taunt and SD turn hakamo-o into a threatening stallbreaker against bulkier teams with fighting/ground coverage hitting a lot of popular mons in the tier for at least neutral damage.

Some calcs just for good measure:

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Hakamo-o: 102-120 (32.4 - 38.2%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Hakamo-o Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 124-148 (47.5 - 56.7%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO
Softens up chandy for your sweepers to clean up

252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Hakamo-o: 135-160 (42.9 - 50.9%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Hakamo-o Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heliolisk: 216-254 (81.5 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (34.3 - 40.4% recovered)

completely useless but it eats a draco from noivern
252 SpA Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Hakamo-o: 260-308 (82.8 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Obviously using a NFE pokemon means that it's gonna have pretty obvious weaknesses. This thing falls over to pretty much any stray psychic- or fairy-type attack, but that's what the rest of the team is there for.

Hakamo-o @ Eviolite
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 120 SpD / 136 Spe
Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Earthquake
- Taunt
- Swords Dance

Speed is for milotic, but the spread is very customizable for your team's needs

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Meteor Mash
- Extreme Speed

Hakamo-o @ Eviolite
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 120 SpD / 136 Spe
Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Earthquake
- Taunt
- Swords Dance

Heliolisk @ Expert Belt
Ability: Dry Skin
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Volt Switch
- Dark Pulse
- Grass Knot

Charizard @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Blaze
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Defog
- Roost
- Flamethrower

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Protect
- Heavy Slam

Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Crash

thank you for your consideration and god bless the troops
 
Well, no one's talked about the discussion points yet so I'll give em a shot. Keep in mind I havent laddered quite as much as some other people but I feel like I have a decent grasp on the meta anyways *shrug*

Noivern A+ -> S: Disagree
Maybe this is controversial, maybe not. Noivern is great in UU, no doubt, but i'm of the mindset that A+ is still a good home for it. It's pretty splashable, and has a few viable sets, but it's still a pretty one-dimensional mon at the end of the day. 90% of its sets are going to be roost/fog/hcane/(flame/taunt/turn). Its not incredibly hard to slap ibeam onto something, or play around its somewhat underehelming spa. It doesnt defog on rhyperior, gyro deals a crap load from bronzong, and its mu vs some other rockers it'd like to come in on are suboptimal. It has a big case of 4mss, where if it runs uturn for momentum it prob wont be having flame for stuff like doublade. This might make noiv sound bad but its still a super important mon rn. I just dont see it as above Milo, Hax, and whatever else is in that group.

Reuniclus A+ -> A: Agree for a lot of the reasons already given. If its the cm set, its likely getting stonewalled by milo (unless thunder in which case it drops acid armor and is somewhat easy to RK). If its the regen set... i mean toxic and knock are everywhere so that set is significantly worse than it was pre-home imo. It's still a great mon, and with good team support it can thrive, I just dont see it as scary as a mon like band hax which can work on essentially every team.

Lucario A- -> A: Meh, kinda torn but it's probably fine where it is. I honestly dont even think its as good as machamp which is in B+ now, although i could lowkey see machamp in A- too. It's super scary but the only good phys set imo is sd/meteor/cc/espeed with the special set switching between dpulse and vacuum usually. Stuff like chandy, doub, and goliso are all super common, and it had a lotta soft checks like reuniclus and noivern too. A lot of threat lies in its unpredictability obviously, but once you figure out its set RK'ing isnt usually TOO bad. It's scary, but A- is fine for it rn imo

Polteageist A- -> B+: Agree lol. This thing needs a lot of support to pull off its sweep. Ive seen some pretty nice psyterrain+poltea teams, but that's lowkey what i mean by needing a bunch of support. Prio is a driving factor in UU rn, so more often that not it wont be pulling off its sweep. It has a lotta hard counters like umbreon, and then softer checks like pang or other darks types. Good, but B+ suits it well

Espeon B+ -> B: Yuh. I tried to make its kee berry cm set work but it was pretty bad lmao. If you want a specs psychic just use garde, a super dope mon. B+ is overselling it, considering its only usage comes from niche HO

Araquanid B -> B+: Yee. I like quid, its pretty swell. Its adamant liqui+tox sets are scary af, and its typing is actually really nice rn. It's a soft checks to those big bois like Luc and Mamo, and just generally serves a pretty nice role.


Snorlax B- ->B: Imma abstain. Its a good mon with a smallish niche, but sometimes when i use it, it just feels like a big momentum kill. B might be fine for it *shrug*

Rotom-F C+ -> B-: Agree. Its pretty frail, but its offensive coverage is really nice. Personally haven't built with it, but I've seen it do enough to warrant a rise to B-

Side note: Where is driflim council, you hecking weebs?

Side side note: Driflim sucks, so I reluctantly accept your poor decisions

Side Side Note: Sableye, ON THE OTHER HAND??
 
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Adaam

إسمي جف
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I think a lot of people are clouding their judgment around S ranks because we had a pair of bonkers Pokemon last gen. There is nothing as powerful as Scizor or Latias this gen, but Noivern satisfies all the S tier "checkboxes." It's stupid splashable with its godlike speed tier and typing. We have pretty much nothing that naturally outspeeds it, and our scarfers are mostly ass so it has free reign to spam its moves every game. I often run fastest mon Noivern on my teams not because I am strong defensively against it, but because there is literally nothing good I can use to revenge it besides like, Scarf Gardevoir, Flygon (which is hard to fit with a Noivern on your team), and Ice Shard. I mentioned how hard it is to fit Flygon because honestly I see next to no reason to not use Noivern unless I am using some Haxorus offense. In the words of vivalospride, its so good omfl.
 

solonor24

Banned deucer.
I would like to dedicate this post to a Pokemon i have been experimenting with lately and feel it should be on the VR.
:ss/Shiinotic:
Shiinotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Moonblast
- Giga Drain
- Thunder Wave/Toxic/Strength Sap/Synthesis

I would like to nominate Shiinotic from UR --> C/C+.

Shiinotic's Typing allows it to naturally hard counter 2 very common dragons in the tier: Haxorus and Flygon. At the moment I'm writing this, Pjab Haxorus is extremely uncommon, as banded and setup hax cannot normally fit poison coverage on its moveset, and there are no moves flygon has in its pool that can hit Shiinotic unless u wanna be a sewage kid and used mixed Flygon with fire blast, which is not a thing. It also beats a lot of the common rockers such as Rhyperior, Gigalith, Hippowdon, etc. It can also sit on bulky waters such as Milotic and Vaporeon.

Along with its good natural defensive typing, Shiinotic is the only Pokemon that can effectively sleep another Pokemon without worrying about missing. It also has great potential for whatever your team wants it to be, as it has 3 different status moves it can use with the likes of Spore, Thunder Wave and Toxic all at it's disposal. Similar comparison's can be made with Vileplume or Roserade, but it doesn't have the typing to wall the dragons or all of the tools that Shiinotic has in it's arsenal.

Overall, Shiinotic may have obvious flaws such as getting hard countered by roserade/vileplume along with others, but walling top metagame threats along with many defensive tools certainly allows it to carve out a niche for itself in the current metagame. Effect Spore as an ability also allows it to be a complete nuisance for any contact moves that hit it, which is another major upside you may take into consideration.
 
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This is most likely controversial but I vote Chandelure to be the sole S rank Pokémon.It is a very versatile mon,Being able to run a ton of different sets.Scarf is a good revenge killer,Calm Mind is very good against stall teams but Specs is what makes it amazing in my eyes.I use Vikavolt to set up Sticky Web then Specs Chandelure is an absolute force.The only thing that can stand up to it are Flash Fire mons.Even Milotic one of the most specially defensive mons available gets 2HKOd after Stealth Rock if.Shadow Ball is also an incredibly strong move to just spam since Normal types are rather rare.I ran Energy Ball as move 3 to hit Rhyperior,Milotic and Blastoise.Last move is what ever you want honestly(I ran Psychic).With all this versatility I vote Chandelure to be S rank
13668776-8C7E-4DE6-A12C-749851C1631C.gif
 

Hilomilo

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Hey everyone! We've got a mini-update prepared to provide some of our newly dropped Pokemon placements in the ranks. This will only cover Pokemon new to the tier, though moving forward please feel free to discuss both them as well as their impact on the metagame! Here's what we've got:
Added to A+
Added to A+
Added to A+
Added to A
Added to A
Added to A-
Added to A-
Added to A-
Added to B+
Added to B
Added to B-
Added to C
Added to C
Added to C-
Reasonings
  • Cobalion provides amazing role compression between its firm offensive presence, amazing Speed tier, and typing that allows it to check presences like Roserade, Umbreon, and even Mamoswine and some Haxorus sets if it opts for Shuca Berry. Stealth Rock and Stone Edge both prove to be great options in its fourth slot depending on team structure, turning it into a malleable threat capable of providing vital tools to several archetypes. The amount of boxes it checks in this meta is well worth A+ for the time being.
  • Gyarados is among the tier’s most devastating presences with its Dragon Dance set. Its amazing coverage, great abilities, and the several benefits of its typing give it a nigh-unmatched level of self sufficiency. Its ability to make most checks rather situational has given it a great hold over the metagame that is reflected nicely with an A+ rank.
  • Primarina’s typing offers so many offensive and defensive benefits in the metagame, between its Specs set’s lack of switch-ins alongside its coverage and its ability to pivot in on top threats like Golisopod and Noivern. It performs at a great level of consistency and has several applications, allowing A+ to perfectly represent the defensive benefits its typing provides as well as the overt offensive pressure it exerts.
  • Celebi’s Nasty Plot sets have a lot of potency thanks to its great Speed and the lack of solid answers to its STAB combo and coverage. Rocks sets have also gotten some exposure for the great utility they provide to various bulky offenses. The amount of priority and faster Pokemon to revenge kill it, as well as defensive answers like Bronzong and Umbreon, keeps it at bay enough for A to make sense, though its response to the power creep and potency in late-game scenarios gives it a firm place in the tier.
  • Toxtricity’s huge damage output, limited defensive counterplay, and pivoting capabilities give it a lot to love as an offensive force. Its typing gives it solid utility as a Weezing switch-in while also taking on presences like Cobalion, Rotom-C, and Roserade decently in emergency situations. Its poor bulk and Speed can complicate its use, though it’s among the most rewarding Pokemon in the tier to score a free turn with and consistently performs thanks to its several useful attributes, making A fitting.
  • Incineroar has a lot of utility as a pivot right now, thanks to its ability to spam STAB Knock Off, spread status, utilize Parting Shot, and check vital Pokemon like Chandelure, Doublade, Polteageist, and VenuTales cores. It can pretty consistently perform and has a decent amount of EV configurations to toy with, proving a greatly applicable tool in a metagame with fair demand for many of the things it provides.
  • Necrozma runs into some issues regarding competition with other Psychics, but can hold its own thanks to the strength of both setup and support-based sets. Between its ability, great bulk, and vast movepool, it has plentiful unique traits as all of a setup sweeper, wallbreaker, and rocks setter that can put in consistent work. While more experimentation could yield a particularly great set, Necrozma’s mere set of great options makes A- a solid starting point.
  • Despite Rotom-C’s increased competition and counterplay since its previous stint in UU, it still retains a lot of potency as a Nasty Plot booster and general offensive pivot. Its typing and ability have several offensive/defensive applications, and between Scarf, Specs, and several variations of its boosting sets it can prove difficult to consistently answer to.
  • Venusaur is a great sun sweeper with the new coverage necessary to shred offensive and defensive builds alike. Holding it back most is the presence of sun disrupters like Gigalith and Trace Gardevoir, the prevalence of Ice Shard and First Impression, and other common forms of counterplay like Chandelure and bulky Incineroar. However, it requires fairly easy support to pose a huge late-game threat and can still offer solid utility with its typing. For now, B+ reflects the strength of the sun cores Venusaur’s niche rests on.
  • Virizion has an excellent Speed tier and unique offensive typing, giving it a fair niche with both Swords Dance and Calm Mind sets. Its biggest issue is its rather intense 4mss given the presences of Pokemon like Weezing, Celebi, and Chandelure, while the tier’s several common revenge killers can also give it some trouble. It requires a fair amount of support to do its job, though thanks to its set versatility and distinctive qualities, it has a decent niche that fits B for now.
  • Linoone is an odd sweeper on hyper offense with an inconsistent yet highly threatening niche against unprepared teams. Despite its rather rigorous setup conditions, it takes advantage of UU’s lack of Steel-types and can shred several common builds after some chip. B- is a good mark of its threat level against popular teams despite its lacking defensive utility or splashability.
  • Blastoise is a solid sweeper with Shell Smash thanks to its decent bulk and typing for setup and adequate coverage against most offensive builds. It runs into some mediocrity issues, however, on account of its vulnerability to First Impression as well as its struggles breaking a lot of important threats, like Primarina, Araquanid, Umbreon, and fat Waters with Haze. Choosing between natures is also a pretty big struggle due to either trading some vital fire power or the ability to outrun scarfers like Heliolisk after a boost.
  • Alolan Dugtrio has an interesting niche as a cleaner with Sand Force. Under Gigalith’s sand, it can turn into a potent force thanks to its awesome coverage, firm damage output, and Speed well above the majority of the metagame. It is still fairly niche, unfortunately, due to its awful bulk and reliance on Sand for a fair amount of its consistency.
  • Alolan Persian is a fringe-viable bulky pivot thanks to Fur Coat, utility options like Foul Play, Parting Shot, and Taunt, and most importantly, its fantastic Speed. It provides a decent check to Pokemon like Mamoswine, Doublade, Flygon, and Polteageist while proving a nuisance with its utility movepool. Its competition with Incineroar and passiveness can restrict its applicability, though it has a small niche worth placement at least somewhere in the ranks.

Hope you guys enjoyed reading! Discussion points from our previous update are still in play, though given the metagame's generally new nature there is a lot more to talk about, so feel free to provide just about anything you feel should happen or is useful for discussion, including our newly ranked Pokemon. Happy posting!
 

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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UU Leader
clears throat
YEAR OF THE RAT BABYYYYYYYY

:ss/togedemaru:
Togedemaru: UR -> B- at least but if it's lower idrc

I made a post about this in the np thread already, but Togedemaru is absolutely flourishing as a defensive option rn. Its phenomenal typing, decent invested bulk and useful ability in conjunction with reliable recovery make it a genuine option as a specially defensive pivot. Being able to compress the roles of Toxtricity counter, Heliolisk counter and Rotom-Mow counter into one slot while also softchecking threats like Celebi, Primarina, defensive Venusaur, Duraludon, Espeon and Gardevoir is pretty huge. I've been using it to massive success and am currently #4 on the ladder thanks to my rat buddy.


The set I've been running is:

:togedemaru:
Eggstatic (Togedemaru) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 HP / 248 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Spiky Shield
- Iron Head
- U-turn

The speed EVs are for Adamant Sirfetch'd. You could go to 250 speed for Modest Toxtricity, but I prefer the slow U-turn.

This thing walls Toxtricity, walls Heliolisk, eats Moonblasts and Psychics forever and generates a bunch of momentum too. It can even take on non-flamethrower Noivern and use it as fodder, which is pretty cool. The moveset has more options; Zing Zap, Nuzzle and Toxic are all viable choices.

It has some very good checks like Incineroar, but a lot of these mons are slower and vulnerable to chip. Spiky Shield is helpful for this and allows you to whittle things down in conjunction with U-turn. It's also just good for getting recovery back and scouting things like choiced Flygon and Haxorus.

I truly believe Togedemaru is hugely antimeta rn and very good. I have yet to experiment with Scarf sets but I'm sure they have some merit by virtue of being able to revenge kill stuff like Gyarados, Gardevoir and weakened Chandelure while also resisting Extreme Speed so it can rk weakened Lucario too. Scarf still retains lightning rod and stonewalls Lisk too.

I have compiled some replays where Togedemaru did a reasonably good job of walling things on the opposing team to illustrate my point. I'll try to get more tomorrow, too.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1075681450
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1075574051
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1075562769
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1075556177

Overall it's just really solid rn and doesn't even have major drawbacks that would keep it in the C ranks. Hopefully it'll be considered, sorry if this isn't a great nom lol I'm really tired and will proofread tomorrow if I made any mistakes but I just really wanted to get this out there.
 
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Freeroamer

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Noivern and Cobalion to S

I think at some point we should really be looking to make an S rank, as Adaam said before we might not have utterly dominant mons like Scizor and Latias last gen but Noivern and Cobalion are the 2 pokemon that I see as clearly above the rest in terms of splashability, general effectiveness and being customisable to fit what your team requires. A lot of the points for these 2 mons are similar so I’ll do them together to try and keep this a bit shorter and less repetitive.

Both provide incredible speed tiers in a metagame that is definitely favouring offensive builds, but they back this up by having convenient typings and bulk that allow them to check key metagame staples as opposed to the typical mons in these speed tiers which just crumple when taking hits. Thanks to the utility moves that both mons get they have the flexibility of being adapted to whatever your team requires, be that Taunt or Defog on Noivern or the choice of any of rocks/volt switch/sd/coverage on Coba. All of these traits combine to make it such that neither of these mons ever feel like a burden to have on your team, there is literally never a matchup where they are useless especially in this metagame, although I can’t see this changing hugely down the stretch either. I’d never say there’s absolutely no cost to choosing to use a mon as one of your 6, but these two are about as low cost as it gets and both have huge upside, which to me is what being an S Rank pokemon is all about. I’m on phone so I had no desire to really make an essay for each mon but hopefully the points come across well enough and start some discussion!
 
Hey Y’all, Scott Cuddly here.
I have come to inform you to use Physical Blastoise with Shell Smash instead of Special, like I did with OU and even Ubers.

Now being a bit more serious, Blastoise was put into C rank with the impression that it struggles against common Special Walls like Primarina, Umbreon, Araquanid, and fat waters. This is true for Special Blastoise variants, but it is completely flipped on its head with Physical versions (also like in OU with its counters).
+2 252+ Atk Blastoise Rock Slide vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Araquanid: 284-336 (97.5 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Blastoise Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blastoise: 252-297 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Blastoise here has White Herb, and it puts Blastoise in Torrent range too)

+2 252+ Atk Blastoise Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primarina: 154-182 (42.3 - 50%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Blastoise Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Tentacruel: 430-508 (118.1 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Edit: I forgot Tentacruel doesn’t exist current in the game at all)
+2 252+ Atk Blastoise Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 238-282 (63.6 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Blastoise Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Milotic: 215-254 (54.5 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
The only common hazer to still give Blastoise complete trouble is Vaporeon with max physical investment.
But it doesn’t stop there. Other checks like Toxicroak, Roserade, Venusaur, Gyarados, and Reuniclus don’t appreciate a +2 Earthquake, Rock Slide, or Liquidation, while they could overlook Blastoise’s special coverage, outside of Ice Beam for Roserade/Venusaur.

And when compared to its other Smash competition, Barb, while the initial damage output is weaker, and it gets Grass Knot as an option, Blastoise has a better defensive typing, nearly identical physical bulk, and better special bulk. This allows Blastoise to run other items.Also, the damage Blastoise provides still has many of same Effective KO Ranges, depending on natures.
Oh, and Blastoise is also 10 bases faster, which with Jolly can make Blastoise faster than Scarf Timid Inteleon and Heliolisk, while Jolly Barb will still be outsped by them (and OHKO’s by both, while Blastoise can tank several Hydro Pumps from Inteleon)
Oh, and also, with the initial power comment, if Blastoise gets into Torrent Range, it’s Liquidations will do even more damage than Barb.

Oh, and let’s also not forget that Blastoise doesn’t need to be an offensive powerhouse either. With Life Dew, Blastoise finally has 1 recovery move besides rest.
Although it lost Refresh, Blastoise has pretty similar bulk to Pyukumuku.
252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 129-153 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 154-183 (42.5 - 50.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Noivern Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blastoise: 102-121 (28.1 - 33.4%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Noivern Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyukumuku: 88-105 (28.1 - 33.5%) -- 93.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
It’s only a smig frailer on the physical side and a smig bulkier on the special side, which is pretty impressive.
Although it trades off Unaware and Recover, Blastoise also still sets itself apart with not being taunt bait, scald burns (which completely negates the smig less physical bulk), and Hazard Control.

Due to having a diverse number of sets that all can be viable, and can stand out from similar Pokemon while using the same archetype;
Blastoise C -> B-
I know I just went on a long rant shilling for Blastoise, but it still faces problems. The fast electric types are only band-aided by Shell Smash after the boost, and Rotom-C still can give Smash Blastoise a lot of trouble. It also still have 4 move syndrome. And Life Dew being only 25% healing means it can’t be as brave and even with protect, it only gets 37.5% health back.
But hey, at least it’s a start and Blastoise is getting much needed love that Charizard and Venusaur have been hogging for 20+ years.
 
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ausma

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:sm/necrozma:

A- --> A

Necrozma is disgustingly versatile, and in the current UU metagame this trait is invaluable. Thanks to its phenomenal coverage, incredible set-up options, Prism Armor, and incredibly well rounded yet efficient stats offensively and defensively, Necrozma is able to be run in a myriad of ways. Of course, this seems great, though what exactly makes this so good in the current UU metagame? After all, Mew is just as versatile if not more, and it's considered a below average Pokemon in OU.

1: Actual Win-Con

Right out the gate, Necrozma has something Mew doesn't: power. Base 107/127 offenses are shockingly powerful in conjunction with Dragon Dance/Calm Mind/Autotomize variants, and with Prism Armor's utility along with its already solid defensive spread, its otherwise underwhelming defensive typing is not only remedied, but makes it so set-up is not even remotely an inconvenience. Prism Armor allows for Necrozma to live game-changing hits that allow for it to get boosts easily and efficiently even in the face of its threats. Plus, thanks to being marked as super effective, Weakness Policy is great for getting even faster set up at the cost of said item being consumable. You manage to reap the benefits of the item without needing to take a devastating blow; with a better typing and stat spread, in this regard, it vastly outclasses Rhyperior.

Some relevant example calcs:

252 Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Prism Armor Necrozma: 184-217 (54.9 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Prism Armor Necrozma: 190-225 (56.7 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma: 234-276 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Additionally, unlike Rhyperior and its competition, it is pit with more powerful, flexible set up/coverage options. The new addition of Dragon Dance allows for it to play physical, and thanks to Photon Geyser's unique trait of changing how it hits the target, it doesn't need to worry about losing a reliable STAB move no matter what set you opt to run. What's even better is the coverage it can run; Earthquake, Stone Edge, Heat Wave, Flash Cannon, Dark Pulse, and Photon Geyser provide ubiquitous coverage for Necrozma with both its special and physical sets that allow for it to safely pry apart the tier defensively barring Milotic, Umbreon, and Vaporeon. Dark types that are immune to Photon Geyser such as Morpeko, Incineroar, and Drapion are similarly weak to Necrozma's Earthquake/Earth Power, for example, letting it not fear potential immunities. For resists, all relevant threats are weak to Earth Power, Dark Pulse, and Flash Cannon.

2: Psychic STAB's importance

Much unlike in OU, Psychic STAB is much, much stronger in UU. When one of the best defensive Pokemon in the tier is Weezing-Galar, and when Poison and Fighting types as a whole are so common, Psychic STAB becomes incredibly useful to have. This powerful STAB typing and a phenomenal move in Photon Geyser to capitalize upon it with turns what's otherwise a barrier from preventing a sweep into less to eliminate prior to set up. What's also important to note is that Necrozma, aside from Gardevoir, is the only relevant Psychic type in the tier that has speed that is able to set up for a sweep. Despite its overall competition as a Psychic type, this particular niche is incredibly valuable. Unlike Gardevoir, it has a generally easier time setting up due to its lack of an additional Poison and Steel weakness with Prism Armor and its solid defensive stats. In conjunction with its flexibility as a sweeper, Necrozma plays a role unlike anything else in the tier.

3: Defensive Utility

Something else that gives Necrozma an edge over its offensive competition is its defensive utility. Not only does Prism Armor allot it easier set up, but this allows for it to better survive opposing attacks as a whole, allowing for its utility to become much more of a noteworthy attribute. Its access to Stealth Rock, Toxic, recovery, Dual Screens, Thunder Wave, and Trick Room allows for it to play more roles than just the conventional sweeper. Even better is its ability to check what would otherwise wall its offensive variants thanks to Toxic. On top of this, access to Morning Sun and Moonlight in conjunction with keeping its incredible STAB base 127 Special Attack Photon Geyser keeps it an active threat in the battle all the same. Its main competition in this department is Reuniclus, which not only has Magic Guard but also has more reliable recovery in Recover to remain consistently healthy and an easier switch-in. While this is a detriment to this niche, access to Stealth Rock, a better speed tier, and Prism Armor gives it a niche over Reuniclus, as well as an unpredictable edge.

---

So, overall, we know Necrozma for sure is a good Pokemon; its solid A- tier reflects this. Why does any of this mean it's warranted a higher tier? After all, it is walled by a lot of the tier's most common Pokemon, and it wears down much quicker in comparison to its competition. This is very true; Necrozma is probably not going to get any higher than A unless we see a fallout or tier rise of Milotic, Vaporeon, Umbreon, and similar defensive threats; it's also true that each of its sets have an Achilles Heel of some sort and cover every base; and it's true that it suffers hard from 4MSS. However, this is not why I believe Necrozma deserves to be a tier higher. I believe the biggest reason to its rise comes in its versatility.

The tier, as we know, is incredibly mixed in its contents. There are so many different things to account for; different defensive Pokemon, new offensive threats, and powerful utilitarian Pokemon. However, something to bear in mind is that many of these Pokemon tend to be relatively standard. What I mean is that what you see is often what you get; if you see a Milotic or a Weezing, you may see deviations, but you know they're going to be walling you. However, Necrozma is much different; not only is it a menace offensively, but it is extremely dangerous defensively as well. Unlike most of anything else in the tier, it has an extremely powerful ability in being a splashable, flexible Pokemon that can play to your team's needs. If you need a strong cleaner that breaks Weezing, Necrozma is perfect; if you need a rocker that breaks Weezing, Necrozma is also perfect; if you need a Trick Room setter that can set rocks and spread status, Necrozma is perfect. The ability to fit whatever role you need in a tier full of efficient yet relatively standardized Pokemon along with having the stats, typing, coverage, and utility to properly fulfill said roles in the tier provides it with a niche unlike any other, even among its competition. It can cripple what would wall its offensive variants, break what would handle its utility sets, and will be stunningly consistent all the same.

Overall, tl;dr--I believe Necrozma is warranted a rise for its fantastic, consistent versatility; its ability to act as a potent win con; its great utility and longevity as a utilitarian; and, lastly, its relevant typing, stat spread, and ability.

Other noms:

Togedemaru rise:
I actually do agree with this. I've seen it a couple times on the ladder now, and without Magnezone/Magneton around, its typing is unique right now with Toxtricity and co. running around, giving it a pretty effective niche as a utility mon and a pivot. I don't know if B- is about right for what I think of it, but I would say C+, personally.

Noivern rise:
100% agreed. Similar to Necrozma, it is incredibly versatile, and even more consistent than Necrozma at what it does and what it is capable of doing. Along with its great (yet somehow unique atm) typing and stat spread, I don't at all see why it isn't considered S tier.

Reuniclus drop:
Agreed, but not 100%. While I still think this thing is fantastic, I believe its speed tier and middling defenses are becoming much larger of an issue now that we have things like Incineroar and Toxtricity running around. I think its best set down the line will probably be AV since it'll allow for it to check Toxtricity and Sun spam more effectively, but we'll have to see. It's still pretty flexible, which, as I've said many times, is a pretty powerful trait in UU. Super good mon, though, and I wouldn't be against keeping it in A+ whatsoever.

Araquanid rise:
Agreed. Its typing is phenomenal, as is its stat spread to check many of the offensive threats in the tier. Plus, with Toxtricity now a thing, webs are extremely good right now. I can see arguments stating otherwise given how the tier's power level just kicked up a notch, but its typing has gotten surprisingly good with what's ultimately dropped.
 
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Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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wow I really don't shut up in this thread huh

Current slate:
:noivern: Noivern A+ -> S:
Absolutely agreed on this one! Noivern is 110% the best mon in the tier and it shows. You can find it on nearly every build, and even if it's not on one, there's no doubt that it'd almost always fit. Current metagame trends are great for it; it's a solid check to most of the new drops, capable of going toe-to-toe with all but Primarina, and appreciates Gigalith's general decline in usage as a result of the new, phenomenal Cobalion. It can do absolutely anything for a team between wallbreaking, acting as speed control, hazard control, being a reliable defensive answer to some of the best mons in the tier and offensive answer to some of the others - it's just really good. If anything deserves S, it's this.

:reuniclus: Reuniclus A+ -> A:
Also agreed on this, unfortunately, and would go as low as A-. Reuniclus has taken a pretty fat hit recently with the addition of Incineroar to the tier, and also gained quite a bit of competition in Celebi and particularly Necrozma. It's still doing what it always did but idk, just feels like a wasted teamslot most of the time now. CM sets suck btw. Just use AV or LO 3 attacks if you're gonna use it at all.

:lucario: Lucario A- -> A: I originally nommed this up but now I disagree because of very real competition in Cobalion. Cobalion compresses almost everything Lucario would want to do into the same team slot with more speed, bulk and utility, even though it trades off a bit of offensive power. I don't think it belongs in A at all because the reason to use it outside of HO has significantly diminished; A- is fine for it.

:polteageist: Polteageist A- -> B+: Yep. Umbreon and Incineroar are still in the tier and Doublade is becoming a bit more popular again, and it still competes with Chandelure for a team slot. Don't have much to say on this bc imo it should've dropped a while ago; it's only good on HOs and even there it's not that great anymore.

:espeon: Espeon B+ -> B:
Idk? I think Espeon has actually gotten better recently. Its speed tier is great with Cobalion and to a lesser extent Virizion in the tier, and the readdition of Toxic to its movepool is effective and unexplored imo. That said, increased competition with Necrozma, Celebi and Reuniclus is pretty bad for it, and Gardevoir is as popular as ever. It's still the best screens setter in the tier and has a good enough niche as a wallbreaker, so I think it could stay in B+, but if it dropped I'd be okay with it.

:araquanid: Araquanid B -> B+:
Yes yes yes yes yes. Araquanid has been slept on for a long time as a standalone mon and should absolutely be higher. It's ridiculously tough to switch into because even Noivern isn't a reliable answer to Mystic Water sets and our bulky waters just fold to subtoxic. Being a serviceable Mamo check is really cool too and it can tank a hit from Prim in a pinch/discourage Hydro spam which is neat. Sub sets can also take on all Gyarados sets unless it's already like +3 so that's really cool, and it does an ok job of checking non-sedge Cobalion. The main issue is that it can be quite hard to fit on teams, but that doesn't mean it's not exceptional rn.

:bewear: Bewear B -> B-: Yes :(. As much as I love the bear it's just facing far too much competition and struggles to break things depending on its set. It needs Lariat to not just get destroyed by every Ghost in the tier, gets outclassed by Lucario and Cobalion for the most part, can't reliably pull off a choiced set to distinguish itself bc of its lack of spammable STABs and just feels lacking overall. It's also revenge killed REALLY easily by top threats like Noivern and Chandelure so its setup sets can never sweep, relegating it to a role of being a suboptimal wallbreaker and nothing more.

:snorlax: Snorlax B- -> B: After testing, I disagree. I built a team with this after seeing the nom and it just felt really bad. Curse sets are so vulnerable to Trick and the increase of stuff like Cobalion and Doublade really sucks. Banded might be better bc it can take on Chandelure pretty well while compressing the role of a breaker, but if this is on the basis of curselax, it definitely shouldn't rise imo.

:rotom-frost: Rotom-F C+ -> B-:
Haven't seen it since shifts at all, not gonna comment.


Other noms:
:cobalion: Cobalion A+ -> S:
Iffy, but leaning towards yes. Cobalion provides a loooot to teams. Stealth Rock, pivot support, dual setup options (don't use cm tho) and some other niche options are really huge. The thing that really sets this apart from other mons imo tho and gives it the potential to be in S is its ridiculous splashability, rivaled only by Noivern. There is no team archetype (other than like stall?) where I would consider Cobalion a bad pick. It's strong, it's fast, it's bulky and it's versatile. Those are absolutely S rank traits. It has weaknesses that are pretty big, though. It's easily revenge killed by fellow (hopefully) soon-to-be S-rank Noivern, it can't really break our Ghosts because they resist the shit out of Iron Head and it gets literally 0 coverage for them and it's prone to getting whittled, in addition to lacking initial power, but I really do think it's the 2nd best mon in the tier and belongs in S or S-.

:necrozma: Necrozma A- -> A: Heck yeah. Necrozma is a phenomenal Pokemon and its set versatility is literally unrivaled. Seriously, not even Noivern comes close. It has DD options, Autotomise options, defensive rocks, offensive rocks, specs, CM, salac, like it's literally insane and it can tech for so many matchups and just turn them on their head. This is one of the few mons in the tier that straight up doesn't have a counter until you've scouted its set because it can pack coverage for just about everything; Gyarados is one of the only other things that can really claim this, for reference. I think it's on a similar level to Gardevoir and significantly better than Reuniclus. A fits it perfectly.

:celebi: Celebi A -> A-: Personal nom here. I've tried a bunch of different Celebis and they're all honestly really underwhelming. NP can't break effectively because of its poor STAB coverage and inability to really run coverage moves without giving up Recover, plus it's still invalidated by some things like Bronzong even with 3 attacks. Defensive Stealth Rock sets are absolutely terrible imo and have no reason to be used over any other rocker, really. Offensive Stealth Rock is okay in theory but struggles so much with 4mss, leaving you walled by something you're supposed to beat like Weezing or Milotic. Combine all this with a quad weakness to U-turn (voltturn is really strong rn) and the fact that it gets absolutely trounced by First Impression and you've got a mon with quite a few issues that just shouldn't really be A rank imo.

think that's all for now, rest of the VR looks pretty solid overall! (:
 

Jade

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:ss/Cobalion: --> A+: Disagree.

Cobalion is not splashable or dominant enough in the tier to warrant a rise to S rank. The definition of the S-rank, according to the OP, is: ‘Pokemon that provide dominant or multifaceted presences within the metagame. Whether it's through offensive, defensive, or supportive roles, S-ranked Pokemon perform at a top level of consistency, provide excellent utility and/or versatility, and prove key in shaping the metagame's trends and patterns’. I'll be going over each of these traits and explain why, in my opinion, Cobalion meets none of them.

1. Pokemon that provide dominant or multifaceted presences within the metagame’. Is Cobalion an amazing mon that provides good utility for offense? Yes. Is it dominant while providing said utility? No. I don't think I've ever built a team and said "hmm, this team is weak to Cobalion, time to change some mons. At most, I'll say "ugh, Cobalion annoys this team" and make a few adjustments, but nothing more than that. Cobalion also doesn't have the ‘multifaceted presence’ required of a typical S-ranked Pokemon. Off the top of my head, I can recall just a few sets, most of which are some variant of Cobalion’s STABs, be they physical or special, and either Swords Dance, Stealth Rock, Volt Switch, or Calm Mind in the other slots. On paper this may seem like a lot, but in practice while actually building a team it's not too much of a concern.

2. ‘Whether it's through offensive, defensive, or supportive roles, S-ranked Pokemon perform at a top level of consistency, provide excellent utility and/or versatility’. I already mentioned this earlier, but Cobalion doesn't have that much versatility. Sure, it can choose between three other moves besides STABs, but does that really count? While it does arguably have the former two, the latter is something it lacks. I'd also argue on the utility bit if you're running the Double Dance set.

3. ‘Prove key in shaping the metagame's trends and patterns’. No. Cobalion doesn't shape metagame trends or patterns. You can argue that it’s too early to decide on this accurately, but using that logic, it's also too early to decide if Cobalion should be S in the first place. If the nom was made after Primarina and Gyarados were banned I wouldn't mind as much, but I feel like we're going through this too fast. It's only been a week and a few days since the tier shift, so it seems best to let the meta adjust.

I also didn't go over how offense isn't the only archetype that exists. On balance, there are much better Steel-type options than Cobalion as well as better rockers. Sure, it's great on offense but balance is still prevalent even if it's not as common.

Tl;dr Cobalion is not dominant enough to warrant a rise to S rank, at least for the time being. It doesn't meet 2/3 of the traits that are required of a S-rank mon and doesn't significantly shape the metagame.
 

Mantine honestly feels like the most splashable bulky Water-type you can fit on a team with the main competition being Primarina for that slot. Mantine having a good mix of defenses makes it a great check to stuff like Mamo, Primarina, Chandelure, etc. I think Mantine is one of the best hazard removal options we have at our disposal with Pokemon like Noivern preferring to have the slot freed up. The ability to do all of this is ideal role compression for a lot of teams that struggle to check everything in this meta. Boots are also a blessing for this Mon to remove it's weakness to SR.


Bronzong is in a great spot with it being one of the premier Steel-types we have + being able to compress rocks onto it. Wanting a check to threats like Gardevoir, Celebi, Roserade, Toxtricity, etc. in one slot is similar to Mantine in good role compression, which is something that is hard to come by. It beats the common SR users in Rhyperior and Gigalith as well as some of the entry hazard removers like Weezing, Noivern, and Mantine. Its main issue is being pretty passive and having to decide between its coverage options because not hitting Coba with Psychic or Body Press can suck.


The same thing as above checks a bunch of shit in the meta, mainly most of the Psychic-types and being immune to Sleep from Rose. It's not passive and can break apart most defensive cores with SD + STABS and filler. Protect is also a good tool for scouting all these choice locked breakers. Drill Run is a great last slot option, which still lets it hit stuff like Chandy and Doublade but stops it being walled by Cobalion and Lucario.


Cobalion coming back does kind of hurt Tsareena if you let it in for free so you have to consider carrying High Jump Kick but I still think Tsareena is a premier hazard remover. It beats the likes of Gigalith and Rhyperior, which are exceptionally good rn with current trends. Getting Knock back really does help this Mon a lot with punishing Vern, Weezing, and Doub. Choice Band Tsareena also hits like a truck even against some Mons that resist its coverage.

Steel
Silvally-Steel is a decent pick as a defensive or offensive Steel-type to fit the team's needs. Unlike the rest of its competition, it has access to Defog and the ability to generate momentum with U-turn or Parting Shot. SD Silvally can tear through most defensive cores with the correct coverage. I have even opted for Boom in the last slot on a few occasions. It takes on the like of Gardevoir and Roserade and can also threaten out Mamoswine with its faster Speed tier and buffed Multi Attack.


Goodra isn't half bad right now for teams looking for responses to Ninetales + Venu, Celebi, Rotom-C, and Toxtricity because of its naturally high SpD. I've primarily been using Specs or AV Mixed but being one of the few Mons able to sit on and break these Pokemon warrants a rise to at least C imo.


Milotic took a heavy blow when Home gave us Toxic back giving us ample means of punishing it better but I think after shifts it deserves to fall back down to A. Celebi, Toxtricity, Virizion, Primarina, Rotom-C, Venusaur, Gyarados, we got all of these during the shifts and they all take advantage of Milotic in this meta. Those dropping Ice Beam for Toxic are even more passive against a number of these and the number of things it reliably pivots into is shrinking. With common trends of Mamoswine, Haxorus, etc. all-seeing high usage hurts Milotic too as it can't take a strong physical hit well at all. Milo also faces a lot of competition with Mantine, which is able to check some of these threats like Mamo better and provide Defog support on top of it.


Espeon isn't half bad but I don't think B+ accurately represents this Pokemon at all. Screens isn't nearly as common as it has been previously and I really don't see too much appeal of using Specs over Gardevoir. I think CM is it's best set and is something I have been pairing with Sun + Weather Ball but this Mon isn't on the same level with stuff like Ninetales, Machamp, etc. Magic Bounce is cool but with how frail it is you aren't reliably pivoting into anything. Espeon faces far too much competition to sit this high up.


Yeah Copper had its moment during alpha and it has fallen off heavily. It's coverage is still annoying to pivot into but being a really slow breaker in this meta is really rough for its viability. As a defensive Steel-type, it can't compete with Bronzong as a rocker and Escavalier/Silvally-Stell are better offensive Steel types.


Yeah Corsola is garbage, being so dependant on Eviolite as a Ghost-type absolutely blows. It is unbelievably passive and Toxic distribution really screws it over harder than it previously did. It being a Galar Mon means it doesn't get Toxic back from Home so it's solely dependant on Wisp + Sap, which isn't difficult to play around.


Vanilluxe has fallen off a fair amount as a breaker and it's just become harder for it to achieve the role it wants when Steel-types like Bronzong and Escav are a lot better. If it had access to other coverage then 3x Ice STAB it might fair better as a breaker.


So I think Sirfetch'd should just be the same rank as Machamp, seeing as I don't think Champ is A- material I think this should just drop again. It's not that easy to fit this Mon on a team and it struggles to set itself apart from other Fighting-types other than the ability to click CC freely. This isn't exclusive to Sirfetch'd as Pangoro can do the same and has a better secondary STAB. It has less bulk than most of our other Fighting wallbreakers and it being reliant on CB makes it fairly predictable. Machamp can hit just as hard/harder than CB Sirfetch'd without the restriction of being choice locked.


An inferior Incineroar. It has Morning Sun at its advantage but there are very very few scenarios where you are going to consider Arcanine unless you are absolutely desperate for a Phys Def Intimidate user.

Stay B

Stuff I agree with rising/dropping:


I think most of the discussion points are pretty outdated at this point with shifts so I feel no reason to comment on them personally. I don't have much to say on the S rank stuff aside from Noivern being S rank.
 
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